Community - Femina - Unfolding the Soul (-NBsZJFLvgc)

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Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Amina Ludin. She’s chosen to talk about community and her journey through different communities. So yeah, let’s start it off with what is a community? A community is people. You know, a community is a center for people to just communicate life with each other, shared experiences, share experiences together. I think that’s the best way I would describe community. Okay, so they’re coming together to share in life. Are there specific forms that you would pick out? Like is this like gathering around the fire, right? Like in the tribe? Yeah, like that would be like the first sort of like what I see like a either like a very intimate setting like in your home or like the city center like the church and old villages and things like that. Just yeah, like it’s the fire that brings everybody together. That’s the people around it gathering by the fire. That’s what I would yeah. I like how you make the distinction between home and city center because like to commune around the city center would have different purpose than communing in home. So can you grow a little bit in that? Yeah, because I mean, you know, I think there’s just there’s always going to be different levels of vulnerability and intimacy that you give to others. You know, like I believe that just in a community, we should all help one another serve one another and have mercy on one another. But that doesn’t mean that I tell just anybody all the details of my life or my struggles, you know, so it’s like there’s a distinction of levels of how people get to know you. Mm hmm. It’s it’s facilitating emotional struggle, but in some sense also, I guess, material struggle, like the sharing of resources, the sharing of information. Yeah, sharing of attention. And sharing a struggle, because like in a community, you’re going to have all every community has something that’s sort of quote wrong with it or has a problem. So you guys share in that as well. So what does that mean to you that you’re a part of a community? Mm hmm. It means that I. I give my time and my talents to help build it, and I know that in my past, I’ve kind of manufactured talents, I guess you could say, like to to feel like I. Like sometimes you get a pressure, whether it’s by your family or like kind of messages that you get in society to be. Just another person in like this straight, like linear line of life, right? And that can diminish someone’s. Someone’s natural talent that they just like, you know, that they just need to mature and form. So I know that I’ve I’ve done that, but I really think that every person has something in which they can contribute. And that is how you participate in communities like that’s that’s. That’s where I see my place in the community is, oh, I see that there’s this and I know that something like that, like I get excited for it or I have like the spunk for it. And so I will kind of place myself there while also being available to like learn other things that maybe I’m not so skilled at or are good at, you know? So in some sense, you’re you’re talking about that the community has expectations or or you perceive expectations of the community and then you stretch yourself into that and that can be oppressive. But it’s also you can stretch the community into what you have to offer, right? Where you can apply your value, but you can also find yourself in your application. Yeah, exactly. Like you’re you’re the missing piece to that puzzle that maybe some people don’t realize is missing. Sometimes when you’re in a problem or like if you live a certain way, you have so many blind spots because you’ve just gotten so comfortable with living in there, with living in that problem that when someone comes in and like kind of inserts themselves and kind of lifts that pressure off of you or that oppression off of you, you’re like, oh, wow, I didn’t know that I needed that. I think all too many times we think that we have to conform with perceived messages of things and I’m going to sneeze right now. Or not, I don’t know. They like died down. So yeah, I like this, right? So when I hear a puzzle piece, right? I hear fitting in, right? I hear home, I hear purpose, I hear meaning, right? And then the other side is someone fits on you, right? Like they’re cooperating with you and making you realize something about your participation that was hidden to you. So the sharing is actually facilitating in some sense growth and also the recognition of value, right? Because like there’s a sense of gratitude that’s connected to that as well, right? You just did that for me. So yeah, okay. That’s- And even if that gratitude isn’t immediate, because some people can be a little curmudgeony over some years, like maybe it takes some time to settle in to have that gratitude and you have to see the effects and have the fog lifted. It’s not always immediate. So on the part of the participants, you have to have some level of patience for other people not seeing the benefit of that, you know? Because change can be difficult. I think that if you kind of stick out from- if your participation sort of sticks out compared to other people because it’s like your talent, then it may be a little startling for other people, if that makes sense. So it’s just different. So what’s implicit in there is that because the change is difficult and takes time, there’s also a component of commitment to the community. Yeah, maybe you want to go into that a little bit. Yeah, there is a commitment because I feel like I believe that there’s different- the best way I can illustrate is there is a sort of- there is a marriage of sorts, or almost what you would call a marriage that happens between you and a community. And I think it’s kind of like talking about Christ being the bridegroom and the church being the bride. There is a marriage that happens and in that you have to have a commitment and a fidelity to continue on regardless of some of the things that may come up. I mean, for some people, I mean other people it may be like difficult and they may need to- maybe they might feel like they need to seek a community, but that’s a different topic. We’re finding a different community. Yes, well, yeah, that is hard, right? So I think the word fidelity that stood out to me, because well, yeah, marriage is binding, right? And fidelity means living up to your bond in some sense, right? And I think a lot of people struggle with that. Like, yeah, that’s not in fashion nowadays. So can you tell us a little bit about how that works for you? Well, I will be completely transparent. Like I am not- like I see both sides of it because of just decisions that I’ve made in my life that are currently affecting me. So I understand that I don’t fully live that out because, well, I’ll just say it. I’m going through a divorce right now. So I know that- like I acknowledge that that is really how marriage or community is supposed to live itself out. But then there is the human struggle that you have that you don’t know if you can continue on to endure that. So it’s not like- I think like you were saying, a lot of people do struggle with that because some- for a number of reasons. I won’t even say that there’s like one reason. Well, it’s hard, right? It’s giving over, right? It’s surrendering to your authority, to the community, right? Like that’s not a small thing. And there’s trust issues, right? Like, because if you go into a community, like how do you know whether you should do that, right? Like there’s cults, there’s many places where, yeah, you don’t want to put your nest. Yeah. And I guess- and I think also like when you’re- because we’re all born into a community of sorts, whether it’s a dysfunctional connection and where that dysfunction comes from, who knows? But like, there is a certain level there- we’re all born into a community, so then some- in some sense, we have for some time, no choice on whether or not we want to be a part of that community. And then- and so some people decide to stay in that and work within that framework. And I think that being taught to endure that kind of makes- kind of strengthens a person’s armor to to not go on the whims of like your feelings of being dragged down, if that makes sense. Like that- Yeah, you were talking about a bunch of things, right? Like, being a puzzle piece, right? Like fitting in gratitude, patience, right? Like, in some sense, those are necessary personality qualities that are required of you to be in a community. And if you’re missing out on them in a fundamental way, it’s going to be hard for you, right? Like you’re going to add into some conflicts. So I think there’s a lot of people, right, that can’t even imagine themselves being a part of a community because they don’t have these qualities, right? They don’t have the skills to be part of a community. And so I think that these qualities, right? You don’t have the skills required for participation. Yeah, and I admit I’m one of those people. Or I have been one of those people, I should say. You know, I’ve really settled into my own community, or I should say, well, I feel because I live in a city, it’s not just within like my grid, like it’s a wider thing, but it’s like, that’s where I function and the wider thing is within my grid. Because even though where I place my time in are sort of, they’re separations, right? Like for instance, I participate in schools, like I participate in Catholic schools, but I am no longer a Catholic. But that is within a big, wider community. So, but the people that I meet or that I commune with go out into the wider community. It’s like, you know, just so many broader things. So rather than focusing on like the macro, I just focus on the micro. And at first, like I thought, oh, I’m like spread in four different areas of my life here, going into these different communities, before I realized that, well, no, those are, those are just parts. They’re not distinct. They’re not distinct. Like if one fails, that is going to burden the other parts of the broader community. Like if one of the schools, for instance, closed down, that’s going to, like those kids, those families have to go somewhere. So it’s like, you’re always going to have like that other level of effect that goes out. There’s a web of relations and everything gets holed up by all the pieces being there. And if you change the playing board, right, then yeah, there might be, well, either tension or a release of tension, right? Like sometimes that’s actually a good thing if a puzzle piece falls away because there was too much pressure somewhere, right? So you kind of see that as your justification for split up, like because it’s all necessary in some way, then it’s less important where you spend your energy as long as it’s doing something good or? I think it’s important where because sometimes like the foundation, you don’t have the same foundations for things. So for me, the schools that my children go to, the church that I go to, we have a shared foundation. We have a shared idea of how we want things to go. I don’t think that I could, I would find it a difficult task to go into other sorts of schools that don’t have that, like public schools. They go to private schools. That is so important to me because it’s such a smaller community for them to do bite-size of and those families all have a shared faith, right? Whether or not they participate in it is like a different topic and a different subject, but at least at the very least they all come there and they know there’s just something. There’s just something. This is why we put them in this private school, religious school, right? Whereas going to a public school, that would be so many different things that it causes so much, that would cause confusion for them more than me at this point. But because of that, I don’t, yeah. So sorry, going back to the point, like I think it’s important on where you give your time, but I guess the best way to say is it’s important where you give your time, but why I lost my thought. It’s important where you give your time, but it shouldn’t be an echo chamber. There we go. Like echo, like you shouldn’t purposely place yourself in a, in somewhere that’s so comfortable that it’s just an echo chamber and it doesn’t grow. Cause sometimes it gets stagnant, you know, if you’re in an echo chamber, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I got it. So like what I hear you say is it’s important that the community is organized around a purpose and that you share that and then public schools effectively, the purpose is getting educated, right? But that can be so many different things, right? You know, like educated in what exactly? Or how exactly? So it’s, there’s a faultiness to that foundation on that goes into, well, then how do we get there? What books do we get? All of these things that doesn’t really form a community, you know, it doesn’t really form a bond because there’s nothing that’s like a- It counts, right? Like it’s not an option. Like the bond has to originate somewhere else, right? Yeah. Because it’s like they’re all getting an education, but like, for instance, if, like, I know that you like here, like you have to be associated with a form of education or schools somehow, right? So we, here in California, we have homeschooling, but you have to be attached to like, you know, a satellite school, or you create your own school. And then there’s also schools themselves that are private, public, and all of that. But the one thing that you have to have is your child registered to, to be it. So you can’t just like say, well, you can’t opt out from a school setting of some sort. You have to, so you can’t just say, no, I’m not going to like enroll them in any school at all, even like a homeschool. And they’re just going to like work in my shop, right? Like you can’t do that. But back in the way back in the other days, people would have to know like, oh, okay, like we push, we set aside going to like the school because it’s harvest season, you know, there’s a shared knowledge, a shared understanding, like, we need to reap everything that we sowed right now, like on those fields. So this is not as important as that. Whereas like education, it’s very salt, like even having the foundation of education can be very self-serving because what is other than knowledge, which I think everybody should have an education of some sort, but what is the shared knowledge going toward ultimately with the way that it’s like in place is for us to get degrees. And like somehow it’s under the guise of changing the world, but it comes into a well, what do I do? I have to like choose, like, I have all these choices. And then sometimes you realize that you don’t have a choice because like you want to do one thing, but it’s so competitive that like you can’t do that thing. So you have to do another. Does that make like, it’s a… Is that also a thing that community helps with making that choice? It should. But I think that in a lot of ways, it doesn’t anymore. I don’t think a lot of us are given really very, very much context of the choices that we do have. Whereas it used to be, whereas community used to tell you like, Hey, you were born into a blacksmith family. You’re gonna be a blacksmith. Like this is a part of our community and your family has been doing it for so long. That’s what you’re gonna do. And it was like what you did for your dying days and your sons would do it. So I go back to the idea of a puzzle piece. Sorry. So when you’re a blacksmith son or whatever, right? Like it’s obvious what the puzzle piece is and where it fits. And like, maybe there’s two or three other places where if you do some effort, you fit in. But there’s a clarity in where you would be valued. Well, if you look at the big city, right? And the places where you could fit and yeah, you don’t even have a taste of of what the place is where you’re gonna fit even if you’ve decided where you want to go, right? Like, because yeah, like an example in my life is so I said, like, I’m gonna go to London and I’m gonna go to fashion school. Like I in some way knew that I loved art and design. Now, I thought, oh, I’m gonna do fashion. I just like that’s where I’m gonna go. So I got accepted into a school in London and I went there for fashion school. And I ended up dropping out of it because it just like, I still loved art and design. But I found like it wasn’t my thing. And it wasn’t where I fit in into that big general world. Because design can be a lot of things. It could be graphic design, textiles. You could design cars, like all these things. Like, where do you exactly fit in like that so broad of category of like, art and design. And down the line, you know, like I had a bunch of things that went on like kind of going here and there and then getting married, having kids. And I started to go back to college again. I said, I’m going to do interior design. I love interior design. And there was something about it that really did light me up. And when I started taking certain courses that also went into construction, I started, I suddenly felt a connection to my family who’s deeply into construction. That’s what my my paternal side has done for decades, right. And like, since my great great grandfather, and probably even before him, it’s just like in their blood. And that started, that was like, I think my first connection to like, the community I was born into, where it’s just like, oh, like, there’s like a connection. It’s not just me, right. So then I decided to get an art history degree because my instructor said, nobody should get it nobody should get an interior interior design degree because like, there’s so many things that you can do with it. Like, there’s so many things that you can’t do with that designation. But if you do something specific, that will be your specialization in this broader world of interior design. Because at that point, everybody had thought HGTV home flipping everything, I want to do something more. There’s so many historical buildings to, you know, like maintain, and uphold, and I love that aspect. And that also was a component of my family, you know, just being a part of it. And over time, I found exactly kind of where I fit in to that. But that started to be more of a, hey, dad, tell me about like what you do. And what is that? Like reconnecting that, in which I found the puzzle piece there. Yeah, so if I rephrase that, so there’s this big space, right, that’s connected to your study. And some people would perceive that as freedom, right? It’s like, oh, I can do everything I want. But you more had a problem, it’s like, it doesn’t connect like this. And then you go back to the family and to history, and that allows you to give it a place. And that also gives you then a way to participate in your role, or even imagine, yeah, maybe dots. Like, could you envision yourself in the future, in the beginning? Like, was that something that you were able to do? No, I actually never, I’ll be honest, I never really gave a lot of thought to any of these things. I was given so much freedom that I think a lot of people only dream of. But in a certain sense, some sorts of freedoms can be very restrictive, because the possibilities are endless, so to speak. And you get choice anxiety. And if it’s not given to you, like, if my parents were to have said, you are going to do the family business, maybe there would have been that resistance and that rebellion, because I think a lot of people that do end up doing that, like going down that road of following in their parents’ footsteps, do dream of doing something different. But like, I could say from being on the opposite end, where you’re, you know that you have, there’s something established in your family that you could be a part of just straight out the gate, but your family doesn’t want to repress you, so they let you do whatever. You get so, I believe that you get so lost in the choices that there’s no direction in which can navigate, help you navigate through where you fit in the community. It’s overwhelming, and sometimes it just puts you in a place of like depression, because you don’t know what the meaning of your life is. You know, even with my faith, like even though I have like what guides me in my life, that doesn’t, that does not, that does not tell me where I need to be in my community. Like in the end, I still have to like search for that. And you’re gonna find your calling. Yeah, like, it’s still in the end, the onus is on me to find out where and how I participate in the way that I’m supposed to participate. I’ve actually been struggling with sight and ears to hear and eyes to see, right? Yeah, I need to. And there’s, well, like, for me, it’s obvious what it means to have eyes to see, right? But ears to hear, like, it has a different quality, right? And I just mentioned calling, right? So if you have ears to hear, you hear your calling. Yeah. Yes. No. Yes. And I it’s so funny that you say that because like that is that is like the season of life that I’m like in for like in my faith journey in the in this in this topic, because I’ve been going to an orthodox church for at first on and off for like, or four or five years. And it’s really been on for the last like two years, right? Where it’s like consistent participation going apart, I can kind of name names. Like, it’s funny. But the thing is, in my defense, the Greeks give everyone the same name. So I have to learn which one is which, like, they all have, like, it’s like five names, and they have to remember which of those five names like, you could you could say that’s easier, right? Like, yeah. But then at the same time, there’s so many nicknames that come from that. And people can say, like, there’s one, there’s one gentleman, right? Someone called him Dino for it, like, and I was just like, who? Like, that’s not not not that woman’s wife husband, right? Like, because that doesn’t sound like him. No, it’s this is his wife. And I’m like, wait, his name is this, like, I hear this all the time. And that’s what I’m talking about. It’s like the are they have a lot of a lot of the names have like five different nicknames. So then it’s like remembering. But anyway, the point that wasn’t the point that was it. But but I’ve been going there and see the thing is, is that one can find it boring, because it’s the same thing over and over and over again. Like you can go you can go one year before and one year ahead. And on that particular Sunday of that year, you will hear the same exact Epistle and Gospel reading, like you will hear the same exact thing, right? And some people could say, Oh, I’ve heard it before. But my ears to hear have really come from going there. And I start hearing things, like different ways that things are said, the message is the same. But it’s like, Ah, oh, I get it. Kind of I think. Yeah, I got some of it. It’s like a new level of understanding. And it’s so freeing. It’s it’s so freeing, because then I understand even more how how I should conduct myself in community, you know, on the fidelity of staying in this community, regardless of of some of these things that are like so minor, because sometimes people we can I know that with the sense of freedom that I’ve lived with that you can have choices on like, Oh, this person says this, like, I don’t want to talk to them anymore, or whatever. And then when you look back, you when you if you were to like, be on the outside looking in, you’re like, that’s such a minimal reason for not wanting to commune with this person. Now I with the ears to hear like in the eyes to see like, I see like the level of like, of love that you give to another person by sticking it out, like, in that participation in the community, rather than going on the whims of your desires or whatever. Yeah, that that is that is a hard, a hard thing to discern, right? Because like we we actually in church had this whole thing about that made a people that drag us down, right? In and prevent us from getting to our calling, like, let them leave our lives, right? So there is there is there is a way in which you can obsess about something, but on the other hand, right, like if you obsess about it, then they’re dragging you down, right? Like, yeah, distracting you from doing something good. So that’s yeah, that’s difficult, right? And yeah, it is. It is because like you like in the beginning, when you were talking about, like, you can find yourself in a cult, like, that is a negative of like, that is a negative of putting yourself in a community, because it may not be it may be a community that’s not going for the greater good, or influence you in a bad way. So it’s it is it is difficult, because sometimes there are people that like, make it difficult to be with, in that sense, you know? So I get it. I agree. So let’s, let’s start in your journey of life, like what what is the first time that you became aware that you were part of a community? Um, surprisingly, it, it took for me to start going to my church, for me to understand and accept community. Because before, it was very much on the whims of, oh, this person hurt me in this way. So now I just know not going to talk to them anymore. And although there are hold on. So when when you say that is, does that mean that you’re blind to the communal dimension of the relationship? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. That’s actually a really good way to frame it. Like, yeah, yeah, it’s it’s a really good way to frame it. Because, um, because I viewed myself like an island, like we’re all little tiny islands that like, you know, are in a certain geographic region, you know, like I’m this island, this is the island of Manuel. And, you know, like, we could see each other wave high, you know, maybe row the boat to the next row. How are you doing? How’s it going? Maybe take our little catamaran and go over to their island. But like, I want to go to back to my island. Okay, go all the way back. Or go far away, go to that person’s island. And then like, you know, they come back. Like, that’s, that’s how I used to think we were as individuals. Now, my, well, I want to I want to keep there a little bit. Yeah. So then, so then I was so blind to the fact that we’re like to the to the fact that it’s more like, I was so blind to the fact that we are actually more like houses right next to each other. Not an island. We’re like houses right next to each other. Like, so you’re my neighbor, neighbor, like I go out to my front lawn and I see and I’m like, Hey, Manuel, as opposed to like, there’s a body of water that separates us. And I was so blind to that fact, you know, I so what does that what does that do to you? Like, like, how does community look from the fact that you’re effectively an atom? Well, it means that you can make decisions that best serve you purely. And so it’s more it’s you are more prone, I believe, to hurt other people, not because like, maybe they’re too sensitive or something like that. But like, you only see them as a means to an end. Like they’re their place in your life is only to serve you. And you discard them when they no longer serve you. I think that’s what that individual mindset that island mindset leads to. Because I see it in the actions that I had before I started, you know, really diving deep into my faith and then having my eyes to see like, Oh, wait, no, like this person like lives right next to me, like, I have to serve them just like they’re they may serve me, even with their difficulties, they serve me, you know, because I learned patience to sit and listen to someone else, rather than talk. As you know, I’m a very loquacious person. So it’s it, I could keep talking about myself and my ideas and all of this stuff. Knowing that you have a neighbor means that like you stop and you listen to their problems, you listen to their thoughts and ideas. And sometimes you participate in the things that they like that maybe don’t even interest you. Like, I’m not a big sports, like I, I used to love going to sporting events, but that was only really because I was looking at it from a Oh, I look cool sort of way. Now, I actually like I’m not really I know that I’m not really much of a sports person. But I go to sporting events, I participate in sporting events, because other people in my life love doing that. And I want to be there with them, because that is an interest of theirs. Whereas before doing stuff was only like a trend to be cool to fit in, like, you know, around peg in a square hole. Okay, so going back to the individualist thing, so do you do you think you always have that? Or is that an attitude that you developed? I think it’s an attitude. I. That’s a good question. That’s like, that’s like a chicken and egg thing. Because I do. I think I think I developed it. Okay, so, so, because this, this is where it gets interesting, right? So, because the way the way I imagine it is you’re, you’re in school, right? For example, and you know, that school is a community in some way, right? Like, yeah. Like, you just know, but then you don’t really know what it means. Right? It’s like, yeah. And so, yeah, maybe you could you could figure out like, what tilted you to go to individualist route? Like, I would say watching my parents, I’m an only child. So I was around my parents a lot. And if some things like they didn’t like, they wouldn’t do it at all, you know? And I mean, like, and I don’t, and I’m not saying that as a whole, my parents made me the way that they are like, they, they are very kind people. And, you know, they are very helpful people. But they also do things that are like the very individualistic mindset, you know, you can’t tell me what to do. Which in and of itself is there’s a certain sense of being right in that, like, you can’t force someone to do something, you can only lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink. But it’s like, a avoidance of responsibility. Or, yeah, I get like that. But I think also just a selection of responsibility, in a way. Yeah. But that’s like, only the flavors I like, right? Yes, yes. Only the flavors I like. So then, I know that I, like, mind you, there’s a lot of things about them that happen in their life that made them the way that they are. So it’s like, not really just like, oh, I had bad parents. No, I had great parents. It’s, it’s just, that’s what I grew up in. And so then, for me, because I never, like, said anything or asked questions, because I didn’t know what questions to ask, exactly. But I’ve always, I see that I’ve always had this sort of shame for being, I’ve always been a person that has been prone to, oh, I see, like, a injured puppy on the street, let me just, like, bring it home, sort of thing. But sometimes, like, that, that puppy was, like, born on, in the wild. And so it’ll bite you, and it may have rabies. So, you know, it’s like a caught, it’s like a lack of discernment on when to help someone. Because sometimes, you can be someone that wants to help people, but you end up helping a lot more people than you understand, than you have the ability of. And so I know that my parents always tried to guard me from that, because they’ve, they’ve always seen that in me, because that’s like, if there’s one thing that I can, that I could say that they’ve told me time and time again, it’s like, don’t take on other people, don’t make other people your projects, don’t do, you know, and, and so there’s always that too. So that anyway, I’m sorry, there’s so many things to unpack with that, that question. Yeah, I think it’s interesting, because you, you created a team for me, right? It’s like, I don’t know what questions to ask, right? And then you go into this, this lack of discernment. So would you be able to articulate a question that you should have asked? I should have asked. I should have asked, how could I help this person, if they can be helped? Like, how? Because as a, as a young person, as a child, you only have the ways to help people that you’ve been, like, told. So like, for instance, and sometimes the the telling of those things is not the whole story. So sharing, let’s, let’s go with sharing. You’re taught, you need to share your things. Well, to what extent? Because sometimes we say, you have to share, but then we get the directive, you don’t share everything. Well, then how do I know what things to share and not to share? Like, so had I just asked the first question, I should have, I could have gotten something to lead to a, oh, okay. So then if that’s not the way that I do that, then, you know, how can I, you know? Yeah, so I get this idea that you’re, you’re back into this combinatorially explosive option space, right? Like you seem to be walking into, into that a lot in different areas, right? So when you say I should have asked that question, is that a question you should have asked yourself? Or you should have asked your parents? Like, what would this, like, how do you see that working? Like? That’s actually, I really actually don’t 100% know, only because, you know, sometimes, I guess as a parent, you kind of just start thinking of the things that you should teach, and then how to teach it and all of these things. And so it’s not really like a blame game of, well, my parents should have done this, right? Or they should have taught it this way. So, but at the same time as a parent, like, yeah, there’s some things that you should teach. But then there is the not fear of just asking things the way that they come to you at the time. I know that what I know that what I just said on what I should have asked is what I would how I would ask it now. But like, as a child, that may not have been the way that I did, you know, and so it’s like, in other words, would you have had years to hear the answer? Uh, I think, I think in a, in a certain sense, yes, but it would have been like a, like a, a dummy version. Yeah, like a dummy version, like it weren’t we all know things in the top, like in the time to our maturity level, you know, so I think that that my parents had I asked, they would have answered it in a way that a child could understand. Right. Um, whereas now, we actually have discussions. No, because I think there’s like, there’s, there’s a, there’s definitely a different way that you talk to kids than you do with adults with adults. There’s like more of a conversation with kids, like you have to like, you give them answers, but like, you don’t talk to them the same way that you talk to an adult entirely, not, not withholding information, but just the way that you communicate that information, if that makes sense, like, I’ll talk to my kids about these things, but like, it’ll be a very, like, still a broad quest, like communication of it because. Right. You got to plant the seed, right. And then, yeah, after nurture it, but, um, I’m, I’m imagining, right, like you, you were talking about the, the community in some sense, asking you to think for others, right. So you have to disqualify this, this atomized thing, right. And then in some sense, you, you, you got to pursue the interest of the other. Um, and I guess, I guess my question is like, do you think your parents had that capacity? Right. Cause, cause the, well, I know from personal experience, right. Like, like if you don’t have eyes to see, you can also not communicate that to your children, right. Like, yeah, yeah. So, so do you think that’s like a family curse or. Wow. That’s a family curse. I can’t confirm. Look at what you did. You made me seize. I am, I am a wizard. Maybe, maybe not. That’s it’s a really good question because it’s like, um, in some senses, I have the confidence that they would have at the time. Um, because they’re, they’re kind of different now in a certain sense that I kind of wonder who they were then and whether or not they would answer that. Does that make sense? Like they’ve, they’ve had things happen, more things happen in their life as you do when you wake up in a new day, um, in which have made them different people in a way. But at the same time, I see bits of exactly how I remember them that. Well, the seats were always there, right? I do have, I do have a confidence that they would have only because we, as a family and an extended family are very tight knit and the matriarch, my grandmother, she very much is someone that taught her sons to be a good teacher. And so I think that’s a very good thing. And so I think that’s she very much is someone that taught her sons to be the, you know, general term, good people. And thus then when they weren’t doing something good would tell them and they learned over time. So I think that they’ve always that, that because especially my dad had that he would have had an answer of some sort. Um, but maybe not embodied, but propositional or something. Yeah. Like it just would have been, I know, I know it wouldn’t have been necessarily within my, my exact framework of where I am now. Right. But it would have been something with, with a, with, it would have been something that was true and had wisdom, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that’s, and since that’s all we can ask. Yeah. And really that’s all, I mean, anybody that, I have so much love for my parents now that I’m a parent. And I think in a lot of ways, sometimes that becomes that, um, because of the fact that it’s just like, um, you can’t, you can’t always plan that you’ll have the right way to answer that question when that comes. Mm. And so you do the best that you can. You just, you just do the best that you can. And they did. So I think, I think that they would have, I was lucky. I was lucky that even though like I was lucky because like, like I said, no matter what I’m saying now, I think very highly of my parents, you know, they, they, they taught me a lot and they gave me a lot of good foundations. And in a lot of ways, when I think back on it, um, I’m just like, wow, I should have just taken their advice because like, that’s not the way that I would have said that advice or given that advice. And that’s not the framework that I would have had for that advice, but like that is basically on the track of the advice that I give. So yeah, that well, there’s, there’s, there’s something in the way that the advice is given that allows you to accept it. Right. Like, yeah, that’s part of giving the advice is making advice, size chunks that can be digested. And you have to just know where the person’s at in their life too. You know, there are lots of things that they said before their time. Right, right, right. And I like, like, I think that’s the hard part, right? Like when do you do what and how much, right? Exactly. So, so if we go back, little you, working around in school, I was like, now can I- Drawing the circle on the mobile island, doing bumper carts with the islands. How did you get there? Honestly, you make me as a little girl sound so much nicer than I really was for like a good chunk of it. I would, if we’re using the island analogy, I would raid other people’s islands. Like, AKA, I was, I was a bully at one point, like the school bully. So that would be like an island raider at that point. Terrorist. I’m a terrorist, so I was not as nice as that is. Tell me about that, right? So, so, so what, what was the motivation for bullying? And like, what was the thing that you’re achieving with, within the bullying? Mm, general and happiness. And just like, like a lightning rod, you just zap everybody with lightning. Like, okay. I was, I’ve always, like, I was, I was, there were things going on then, you know, like, there were things going on that really, like, were affecting me. I was like so young to experience it. Nothing traumatic, nothing deeply, well, like deeply traumatic. But yeah, that would explain, I would have to explain. You didn’t have a coping mechanism. Yeah. Right. Yes, I didn’t have a coping mechanism and nor did I have the, uh, vocabulary to even say, like, this was the emotion that I had until, um, I was put into a program at school that was basically like a group therapy program and, um, and was given the vocabulary to express emotions, you know, of me, like feeling jealous of, of somebody or, um, feeling offended by things said, you know, um, all I just knew was how to react or, you know, and I think a lot of it probably was like trying to have a sense of control because, uh, control and like respect, which I will say that latter part is definitely something I still struggle with, but it just manifested itself differently to where I just like didn’t realize that that was like a, a thing. So control. Okay. So first of all, do you think that if you were a part of a community with your family, that the community would have given you these things that you called in therapy? Yeah. Cause it was part of my community. I mean, like at that time that the school that I went to, it was a small school, it was a brand new small school. So the resources that went into it were so brand new. So it was like, uh, yeah. So it was just mostly local kids. Um, nobody really commuted from other areas of the city to bring kids to the school. Now it’s probably different, but then it was just brand new that I knew that the kids that I was like walking home from school with were the kids that were living in my apartment building. So, and, and so things like, uh, control and respect, I assume that you mean control in the social realm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So, so, so you, you are relating to a communal dimension there, right? But like in, in, in, in a bad way, right? Like it’s, yeah. Yeah. As the piece in that community, I was overstepping by, you know, trying to control a sense of respect from other people. Secure your position. Yeah. Secure my position or have a feeling of security of some sort, you know, security is either given to you or like you like make security for yourself sort of deal. I think. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just like the, the, under the respect part, it goes into that too, cause like respect of like wanting to be understood and like people like acknowledge me and things like that, like, yeah. Which are not good things for communities. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Right. Yeah. I think, I think, okay. So let’s proceed a little bit. So, you got your therapy, uh, but that didn’t solve it. Right. It just, uh, it was a band-aid. It just, uh, it was a band-aid. Yeah. So that means that it constrained you in some sounds that you were more functional. Oh yeah. Oh yes. You want me to go on? Only if you want to. I can keep going. Yeah. No, it’s just, it, it, it, I was able to control the actions in which dictated my, which were controlled by my feelings. But, um, then how do I, then there was just the, uh, the growing pains of coming more into this world. That I mean, like boys and friends beyond just being on a schoolyard together, the actual learning. There’s a complexity that, yeah, you get introduced to. And then is that also that the problems re-emerge in, in a different, uh, in a different form? Yeah. Yeah. They did. Um, they emerge in a different form by way of, like, how would I describe it? It, it went the opposite direction of trying to just fit in for the sake of being fitting in rather than finding my place of fitting in. So then doing what other people did, because if they did it, then, you know, like that, or that’s the way that you’re supposed to like explore or whatever. I, I don’t, I don’t know how to put it exactly, but it did, but it, but it did manifest itself differently. Cause I didn’t like, I didn’t bully people or make them feel bad anymore. I kind of just like went into like a kind of overly charity. Is, is, is it like you, like when you bully that, that is assertiveness, right? Yeah. You assert yourself and like, it seems that in some sense, you got traumatized by the assertiveness and went, went into the completely opposite point, right? Like the other, I think it was just like, I think it was, I think the way that I would probably describe it is like, instead of being a violent assertiveness, it was an assertiveness of you’re going to like me, I’m going to make you like me. And like, we’re going to be like, really, you’re, you’re going to like me, right? Like, please like me, please accept me, please like me. Like that sort of thing. Like a, I guess you could say maybe more of like a politician assertiveness, where it’s just like, let me campaign for, for your approval. So, right, there’s a dependence, right? And then there’s a, like a compulsive necessity to, what’s the word to attain that for yourself to, to, yeah, to have that. So, do you, the question I always have, right, when you bully people or when you go for that acceptance, right? And you get your place, right? Like you get your reward for bullying or for lobbying. Does that satisfy you? Like, no. No. So why do you do it? Like, like, like, that’s, that’s always the question. Like, why are you pursuing something that’s empty? Because you’re crying out for help. And you don’t really know. Or like, you don’t know what’s going on. And you don’t know what’s going on. And you don’t know what’s going on. And you don’t really know. Or like, you don’t really know, or you don’t have the humility to say, I need help, but I can’t really tell you what, how I need help. Like, I don’t, I don’t know why I need help. I don’t know why I struggle with this. Like, why? Why? Someone tell me why. Like, someone tell me how I feel. Someone tell me how, yeah, it’s just like a loss, like a loss because you need help. And it’s like, nobody had the ears to hear you’re a cry. Yeah. Or, or, yeah. Or the right way to ask, ask or talk about these things. It was just more of a, you don’t do that. Like corrective, correcting the action as opposed to digging down to the root of it. Right. Right. And then, yeah, that feeds on the insecurity, right? Cause you never, yeah, you never acknowledged. Yeah. Like you’re always going to be searching for what, like that you’re always going to be searching for the good thing, but in that you’re going to be asking, why is it this bad thing that I feel, you know, like you want it to be resolved, which is a good thing, but like, because you don’t know what needs to be resolved, there’s the question of like, well, how, how, how do I search for this? Like, how do I find it? And yeah, that’s the, it’s a difficult thing to go through at such a young age. Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s security, right? So, so what’s the next step? Like what’s what happens? Yeah. You, you, you, you see the, the boys and girls doing the boys and girls dance. You’re becoming a little politician. Like, like, then it goes into like, then you get, you fall into the wrong crowds and from going into the wrong crowds, uh, then you start doing more just destructive behavior to you. So in my case, I think some people go inward and they become reclusive. And then there’s others like myself that party a lot and, and, uh, look for that high because, and I mean, like high as in like, oh, there’s so many people around here and the dancing and the music, like the elevation more than like substances, you know, um, I would say, is it changed chasing the excitement, right? Like, yeah, chasing the excitement. It’s like the, it’s like, because you start like for me, when I got, I had friends, like I met them in high school, right? Uh, cause it was mostly around high school that it started to be like that. It wasn’t when I was younger before, like, so that phase that I’m talking about, the bullying phase was like elementary school. Then in middle school toward the end of middle school here would be eighth grade. Uh, I changed schools and that’s when I started going to Catholic school and there I found people that I actually could be goofy, silly, uh, like all into talking about Backstreet Boys and N-Sync, like all those things, like, and I felt really like, uh, and I felt really connected, right? And then in high school, but there was still like a loss there, something that I was missing. And then in high school, I met friends and then I, they, they like to go party. I went and partied with them and then I thought, oh, wow, look at the excitement that we’re having so many laughs and everything. And look at that person. They’re acting goofy and look at me. I’m acting goofy and all that. And so what I had gotten, what I had found in middle school, um, I thought that this thing was exactly like that because of the feelings. It was just the pure feelings, but they lasted longer because it, uh, because like you can go to another party, you can, you know, do it another day and everything. And so that’s where that, that moved to all those feelings and such. So, so you, you said, uh, bad crowds, right? And so, so you, you, you end up with a friend group, which is a type of community, right? Yeah, exactly. Communing around, uh, Jubatry? Access. Um, yes. Hedonism. Hedonism. And then the party is also somewhat of a community, right? Because like, No, it is. You’re actually with a purpose, right? No, and it is. And here’s, it’s just like, like, again, what you were saying earlier, like a cult, like you, there’s always going to be good communities and bad communities, beneficial communities and destructive communities. And it’s around what it’s centered around. So going into those spaces, and I mean this for, you know, like maybe if I may be so bold to say in such a recording that those who struggle with drug addiction, with alcoholism, gambling, a lot of those people, like there are the reclusives, so they’ll go and get their fix and they do it by themselves or maybe a small group of people. And then there’s the other side. And I think it’s probably more of like a personality temperament that may dictate it. But I would say that that is a foundation. These are all people that have the same destructive, like, like ritual that I do. And I can talk to them, I can commune with them. And even though in the end, we’re actually, like at the end of the night, maybe we’re fighting, maybe someone has an emergency that goes on. In the end, these people are still like people. Was that regular? Was that the fighting and stuff? Oh, you know, it was a regular thing over time, because, you know, like when you’re young and you drink, and then, you know, maybe you and your friend like the same guy, or maybe it’s another girl that’s not really your friend and you like the same guy, or like it’s a guy that himself, that kind of, that you’re with, that goes and flirts with other people. Like alcohol and all of that kind of don’t make the best pairings, because then you have like the drama, like afterwards. And I would say that it was more frequent than not only because, only because I wish that it didn’t happen now. Like I wish that it didn’t happen. So then for me, it was too much. One was too much. One time was too much. In the moment as well? Because I can imagine that the drama is in some sense, giving it meaning or like, like, necessary as part of the ritual. Well, yeah, because it’s just like, there’s already a vapid emptiness to that too. I mean, like most of the time we’re not set like most of the time, it’s not like, it’s not like now, like, you know, celebrating, celebrating Christmas, for instance, right? People will come over, gather, there, there may be like drinks and everything, bottles of wine, but like, you’re celebrating a very joyous occasion, you know, like, you know, why you’re coming to celebrate. Going to partying, it’s like a very vapid, shallow, in the end, you think about it, and you’re just like, what am I like really doing here? And, and it is a sort of, oh, it’s because there’s this DJ, let’s just listen to this DJ or something. And it’s just like, there’s not, there’s not a stability around that. Like, there’s, there’s really nothing that you’re actually communing over, except commiserating or feelings that you guys are not sharing with each other, you know, like you’re celebrating, you’re celebrating your broken brokenness. That’s how I look at it. Look at you, look at you, you’re just like, oh, I don’t understand this. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I, I, I understand it, but I, I, I like this idea, right? That, that you’re, you’re, you’re coming together to share the express your feelings, and then you don’t. Like, I like this idea, right? Yeah. It’s like, we all, we’re all, we all know that we have problems. And over time, when you’re like, really good friends with someone, you learn what those problems are, like, you know, some of my best friends, like, of, like, of the time, and, you know, people that I still hold dear to my heart, even though we don’t, like, talk as frequently, I knew their problems, you know, they had deep problems, just like I had deep problems. So I at least like in, in, in a tight, like in an, in a tight knit friend group, I at least knew that we were what those problems were, and they knew what my problems were. But we would never talk about them. You know, it’d be like, oh, forget that we’re just gonna go out and do this. And then we’re gonna feel good. You know, it’d be a deflection and a delusion. Yeah. Yeah. And avoidance, right? Like, yeah, yeah, completely. Okay, so yeah, like, you also end up in a in a Christian Catholic school, you get in contact with with a different type of community there, like, maybe you want to go into that a little bit. Yeah, so simultaneously, because these things, at some point, ran parallel with each other, because I, from eighth grade on, I went to Catholic school. And when I was 16, when I was still with the friend group that I connected with in eighth grade, right, I decided to become Catholic, I wanted to become Catholic, I was taken by the church, I went to World Youth Day, I saw this beautiful artwork, all these things. And I told my parents, like, I want to be Catholic. I just, I knew that there was something that the church had that I wanted. And so I went through catechism, I got my got my three sacraments, baptism, communion and confirmation, like got those sacraments, I was like, good. And then I meant like, ching, team God, right. And then I did meet those friends, like, just a year and a half later, that I would party with. And, and so it was just like, I was like, I’m going to be a Catholic. And so it was just like, there’s always there was always this like, communal, like there was always this calling from God that was just like, I got something here, like, there’s something here, tap into this, go into this. But I still was like, ah, no, the feelings, the feelings, that’s where, that’s really where I find community, so to speak. So yeah, the church lost you, right? Like you? I lost you. Yeah, I Okay, well, no, go ahead. At the time, I would have said that. But now I lost the church. Like there was a certain sort of ministering that wasn’t given very well. Post it and it’s a it’s a problem that a lot of churches with youth ministries are, like have acknowledged that like, once we have this arbitrary age of 18, where you become adult, we don’t have much of a connection after that, and people fall away. Right? So I would have said that the church lost me. But really, the church has always been there. I just didn’t give it the attention to keep it there. Because I did get distracted, you know, like no one. The one thing about that I, the one thing about the church that I think some people even now, or especially now, think is that like, we need to like, strong arm people to remain here. Right? But there is a, but that’s, that’s, that’s not, I don’t believe that that is the church’s job to like force people to do that. You know, I mean, like there is an acceptance that you have to have and in a faith. Right? So that’s where I believe that like, I lost the church comes in, because there wasn’t accountability. I knew how to read. I was 18. I was 17. Um, I had gone to school and like, I had gone to school, we took religion classes, like Catholic religion classes, and we’re taught the great saints of the church and the great theologians of the church. I could have picked up a book and like, actually read more about it. And then everything. What I’m going to ask you the question again. Yeah, what, what would have, what is the thing that you would have needed to do that? Because if you say it’s my responsibility, how could you have fulfilled it? Like, like what, what would it? Encourage encouragement. Like, that’s, that’s a failure of the church. Right? Do not give that. Yeah. And I think, well, in a way, I think one thing, I think one thing, and I think it kind of is a silver, like is, is almost like a silver bullet in a way, not like a foolproof, but like a silver bullet of like, oh, that’s the first thing I could have done. That’s the first thing I could have. I wasn’t asked what, what parish are you a part of? Because framing it like that, it’s like, oh, I didn’t actually really have a parish. I went to a, a, a youth ministry that was associated with a parish, but that was actually a youth ministry that was advertised in other parishes and even in, in, in everything. And it was word of mouth sort of thing that I’ve learned. Like that’s where some of my friends went. That’s how, that’s the only reason why I knew. But if a youth minister had asked, like, what parish are you a part of? It’s like, wait, I’m supposed to be a part of it. I, I need to be a part of one parish. And it’s not that we’re not all Catholic. It’s just like, oh, I should probably think about like the parishes that I can go, go to and be a part of. There’s a different component. So you like the framing. You like that framing and that was not provided to you. Yeah. And because it’s just like, what is community in, like, what, what is a good community in the end? A good community in the end is one that is there waiting for you when you return back if you lose, if you, you go, which is why I don’t blame the church because the church is always there. The church makes itself available and there is a certain level of participation that you should have. Right. So had I known the framing of, oh, one parish, I could have thought like, oh, let me explore parishes. And usually when you come in as an inquirer, those parishes will be like, oh, okay. Like, let me take you. Let me get your number. Let me encourage you. Right. Like, there’s a capturing when you come in as an inquirer that happens and, and, and everything, it’s like a capture. If you don’t have one, because that’s the one thing about people who are cradle, like they were born into the faith. They had no choice into the faith. Well, and sometimes you can’t recognize that necessity that you had. Because it’s alien to them. Right. Like they don’t recognize that you don’t understand what community is and that like your life is actually in some sense around recognizing, right. Seeing what that means. Exactly. And I mean, like, you know, even now, like I see, like, I see it, like in my church, like now at this point of the season, like Pascha has, like Pascha is done. And we’re, and now we’re just looking forward to Christmas if you want to keep it very broad. Right. So, and that reflects the church attendance because there’s less people there. But I will tell you come December that church will be filled because at the end of the day, those cradles know that this is like the glue that keeps my identity together. They will come back. And yes, that’s not, that’s not ideal, but that is something that is embedded. Like they, it’s like a, it’s like a natural thing for them. They just like, oh, it’s that season, you know, like me, it’s a learned thing. Someone that came into the faith like I did, it’s a learned thing. So it’s like, it has to be an encouraged thing of asking the question. Are you a part of a community within this church? Do you need one? Let me find you one. Where do you live in everything? And I think it’s just a blind spot because I think it’s only a blind spot because of the fact that that’s not how it used to function. You know, you were born around a parish and that was the parish that you went to. And now we have freedom of choice. So I could drive to like, for instance, I will give an example even now. I live only four blocks away from a Serbian church. That church I first inquired in when I was still living in this house. But now, but I, for different reasons, it’s a different topic, but I decided to go to this Greek Orthodox church. I have to get in my car and drive. But really, had I just accepted my local parish, I’d be walking there. I’d be like a village Orthodox walking to my church because that’s the one that was right there. It’s built in. And I have to accept everything that comes into that church. It’s not a choice. Right. And I think that in a lot of ways, like you were saying with the cradle, but like you said, with the cradle, it goes into that where it’s just like, oh, we don’t realize this is a blind spot of like asking people, where is your parish? You know? So I think that’s like that. I want to put that, because you did get educated into the Catholic faith, right? So like, do you feel like they told you the important things, right? Because like this was important to you, and they didn’t tell you that. Like, do you feel like there’s other important things that maybe were left out for new people? I think it’s, I think, I think it’s, it wasn’t that there was a lack of telling the important things. I, I believe really what it is, is because it’s not integrated in it. Like my particular school that I went to, like my, the eighth grade year, it was a school that was attached to a church. So we went to mass regularly. My high school was associated with the university, and so we would walk to go to mass. But there was like this, there was a separation between faith and education. You know, like you were educated in the faith while you were at the school, sure. But it was like just another block that you took, you know? That’s what I mean. So it’s not a personal thing. It’s not. I think it’s like it’s not properly integrated so naturally to be a part of. Like having, like for instance, we had a requirement to do like service, but here’s a way to, and here’s a better way to integrate it because we had to go out and look for a service to get our 40 hours for the semester and everything. Like the better way that it could have been integrated is that we, as a class or whatever, we have this day where we get in a bus and we’re taken to this organization where we feed the poor. And we’re doing it together as opposed to individually searching for it so we can fulfill the requirement on us, right? So then we can graduate. Individualism, the individualism infiltrated the educational system. Yeah, because you had to, because like the service hours, what you did with the service hours is you had to find a, you had to find an organization to serve for, to give charity for, like your time, right? We didn’t do that together as a class or anything. That is, that is an integration that should be there as opposed to, okay, like what counts as a service hour? Oh, I can do a soup kitchen. And yes, I went to soup kitchens and I did that and I met other people, but we didn’t go to the same school. We weren’t a part of the same community. We, some of us weren’t even the same like age. They were like adults that gave their time because they wanted to. Whereas me, I gave my time because I had to. And like, what was I going to talk to an older person about? So did you experience it as service or as a chore? I experienced it as a chore. Yeah, I experienced it as a chore. And do you think, do you think that if you’d done that with the whole class, that that would have been different? Yeah, I do. Because there wasn’t, there, we did that a couple of times when I was in eighth grade. We went to a local Catholic soup kitchen and we did that together. And we, it was, it was the, we knew each other and we were in the kitchens together and we were putting it, serving it together. Like we went through this whole big process together to help these group of people that came in that have no homes. Like we were going through each step, what it takes to get it, which is something that when we talk about giving service, when we talk about giving service and serving others, it’s really going through the labor of doing something for that person, right? It’s not just throwing money at the problem. We can all donate our money all the time, but like the time, our time, our free time, that we have to put the labor into like getting to that point. You know, we have to, like, if you, if you are making a project for someone, you know, that you’re going to donate to an organization, you have to go out and go get those materials, whether you go to a store and you build them yourself, you have to construct that thing. You have to build it and then you have to give it to that person and you have to approach that person and converse with that person. You know, and this is in, you know, making rosaries and icons, you see this, like they labor in prayer to create those things that go out into the community. They don’t just, it doesn’t magically appear. And see, when you do that, there’s a connectedness that happens because your labor was translated into love and service. Right. And that’s intimacy. Or at least the capacity for intimacy. And so yeah, like when you say you just, if you give the money or you come to your McDonald’s job in the soup kitchen, right? Like there’s, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it felt way more, um, it felt way more pleasing. Like, like now, one of my favorite things that I did this past year, and I hope that I get to do it again, is I was the Christian Action Program Mom for one of my son’s classes. And what it was is you were, so there’s a room parent that does like the parties, the fun parties and everything, right? I was the parent that came in once a month to administer a service project for the kids that we would give to an organization, right? Because they’re too young, they can’t do like certain services, but they can make cards and things. Right. And it was so, it was a lot because I mean, like these are young kids. So trying to explain to them what you’re going to do is already a labor of itself of like, oh, this and then, Hey, Mr. Like, hey, can you come over here? Like, uh, someone says, mom, like, can you come and help me? I don’t know how to do this. You know, like that whole process was like, Whoa, like there’s so many kids calling my name and they need help to do this. And maybe this project like was too complicated or whatnot. But they had so much, they had joy and happiness while they were doing their things. And I mean, like some of the outcomes of it were just so childlike, like it was like, it was, it wasn’t the most refined or whatever you want to finish product, product, right? But they participated in something and it was fun and it was labor. And even though the people that received these never met the kids, they had such a fulfillment of knowing that they received something. We took the time out of their day to do it. And it was a feeling for me because of the fact that it was a connection, you know, like you have to connect like in this instance, you connect kids with this idea of service of other people of these people don’t like do not have things that you probably have in some capacity, serve them, you know, let’s talk about service and how we can serve other people. And it’s, and it’s, it’s beautiful because, um, then it passes on the giving to others, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. So, so, well, how did we get here? I know it’s a little bit, but I think, I think, no, we did. We did. We did. But I think it’s like, um, like, and here’s the difficulty in talking about these things is like for me, I always have difficulty talking about these like things in life, uh, that, that we know exist, uh, and as concepts, because for me, it’s like, it’s a lived thing. So it’s like for me to like try and stay on a linear path, kind of to like explain it is really difficult for me. I have a difficulty with that because I just do it. So how do I explain that? I don’t have to explain it. You just. No, I know, but I, but it goes off into other different things like these things, like, you know? I agree. So it’s, so it’s, yeah. So you have to bring me back. The importance of service, right? And in some sense, I think you’re making the case that if they had introduced me to what service truly is, right? Your participation that you’re talking. With a community. Right. Then that would have been the glue that held my bond. Yeah. Yeah. Because that’s, um, because over time in every job that I had, which we were talking about this before the stream, when we were trying to figure out exactly what was going to be the glue that holds this conversation together. Right. You had mentioned, you had mentioned my hospitality experience and being in there and to go back to the beginning of our conversation, to bring it all together and a nice like bow sort of thing, to get it back on the path is that. My talent, my drive has always been to connect with people as a community member. Right. And you can say that you’re bullying and you’re being a politician. We’re trying to. Faulty implementations. Exactly. They were faulty implementations, but like, you know, even though, yeah, like working for a hotel and such the like an airline, like, yeah, I’m getting paid to do that. So I have to be there. But honestly, like, I loved being there. In fact, if there were not any labor laws, I would have kept working because I loved doing it so much. I love being around people and talking to people and connecting with people, even people that you would think on the surface, we would not have any common ground. And that’s the amazingness of the complexity of humanity is that we all actually do have something that we can connect on. You know, we just have to get, get there, get to that. So, yeah. So you did high school and then you went to London. Yes. Like, is there something specific in your communal relations there? Because no, but it is a different country. It’s isolation from community. Yeah. Yeah, it was a different country. I will say the one thing I learned about it for sure that like, it reframed the way that I see that we function here in America is that like, there’s a common, there is a common national identity, if you will, like, that Europeans have. Well, is it the Anglo? No, it’s, no, it’s, I would say I, it’s not just indicative to the Anglos. I think it’s also existent in Europe and well, really that whole like Europe and Asia, like the whole block, which is like, you, I admire it because you could actually talk about what is it that makes you Dutch exactly. What is a Dutch, like, what, like, if you were to get like 20 Dutch people, Dutchians, Dutch in a room, what is it that you guys would all be like, yep, that’s a Dutch thing. That’s, that’s what we do. That’s what it’d be this. And I think that you guys could come up very seamlessly with like five to 10 things that are just like, this is what a Dutch is 100%. Whereas we have a, and I think it, I think that it creates a more cohesive sense of community for you guys that you maybe don’t realize because you’re always going to experience like the everyday, like, oh, this person’s annoying or like, oh, this person’s crazy. Like when I’m on holidays, right in a different country and I see Dutch people, that’s bad. I always, I always feel the shame for Dutch people. You can recognize them from, from miles away. Like it’s, it’s funny because you know them, right? Like, you know, why is it, why is it? Because you know that like 100%. Now I could say that I 100% can spot an American for the most part, like going foreign places, but it’s not for like the good reasons, which of course I know that you just said it’s a bad thing, but like, which I would love to hear more about that, but, but yeah, but that’s like a put a pin in that conversation. But like, I admire that about every other cause they can all name there. That is the one thing that I know that stuck with me on my experience with London is that I went to like, it wasn’t even just English people. It was also like, I like, I, there was this one bar that I went to that was a South African bar. You had to like go down. It was so cool. Like you had to go down steps to like get to a, like to get to the door, to get into it and everything. Right. And it was such an amazing thing to see these South Africans all coming together to like, just like, this is a South African bar. This is where we identify with, even though we live here and we’re probably going to live here for the rest of our lives or whatever. Like I will always be South African, you know, like I don’t have to do, and I think there’s something really beautiful about that connection that, that we don’t really have so robustly here. Like, and maybe it’s more so the fact that I live in California. So a lot of people just like, we have a rotation of people that were not born and raised here, you know? So we just don’t know what we are. That’s why we can’t keep sports teams, but like, you know, you go to some other states that have sports teams that like have never won a championship in their life and people will still buy season tickets and like, you know, like be there. Like they’ll go to those sporting events, even though they know that nine times out of 10, they’re going to lose that game. But it’s because like, that is your team. Like they accept that maybe it’s because I’m Californian. So I won’t say it’s like all of America, but that’s what I’m going with. Anyway, sorry. That’s, that’s the one thing that I could say that I took from that. I didn’t realize it until I came back that I took from my experience from London about community. Like, yeah. So on the individualism track, do you think that being in a different country, like did you, did that alienation put you more in the individualist bucket? And like, is that partying as well? Like did that become more excessive? Yes, I think it did because it was just like, I still didn’t, I still didn’t have, like, I still didn’t know the question that I needed an answer for, you know? And so it, there was a separate, like, so it just created that separation, you know? But you had, you had an integrity that said, no, I should not do this. Like, this is not my place, right? Like, I, Yeah. I wouldn’t call it an integrity. I had a knowledge that I shouldn’t be doing this, but it didn’t change the behavior. Well, yeah, but you acted upon it, right? You quit your studies, right? Like, yeah. Well, it was kind of more of a forced thing. Like it did, it did not end well. It was not like, oh, this isn’t good for me. I need to go back home. It did not end well. Okay. So you, you basically failed. Oh, yeah. 100%. Like just, if it was ever like an Olympic sport for failure, I think I would have gotten a gold medal. Okay. So, so, so what does that do to you? So you go to a different country and you fail, um, and you’re unmoored. Um, so yeah, like, how do we deal with that? Like, is that disastrous or is it just something that you like, it was, it was disastrous because it was disastrous because of still not the acknowledgement or the realization of your place in community because your actions do affect other people. And sometimes you don’t really realize that other people long to do the things that you were blessed to do that you took for granted because like, I will say I disappointed my mom greatly. Like to this day, I think that it’s still, I know not, I don’t think, I know it still affects her because she wished that she would have known that it was an option to go over to your urban study because she didn’t have, she didn’t have that knowledge and she would have done that because in the end, like, so I was raised, so my, because, and this is important, like my mom is half Japanese, half black, but she, she, and she grew up in a time where she was like, you would say one of the first wave of like groups of, of Haffies, Haffews of, you know, which is a term that they use. It’s usually a derogatory, said in a derogatory manner, but she felt so isolated from her identity when she was on the mainland of America, but she felt her, some of her happiest moments that I hear when she talks about them are when my, are when she had to live in Hawaii because my grandfather was in the Navy and when they, and then when he, when they were stationed, so stationed in Hawaii and then stationed in, stationed in Hawaii and then stationed in Japan. Those were the times in her life where she felt the most connected to people. And so for her, when she came to London, she saw something that she had experienced in, it was like, there was something about it that she felt was so close to the times in her life that meant the most to her because there was, and I think it was, I think it was community, you know, that there was like a understanding of, of being a collective as an individual, you know, rather than an individual that, that, you know, is an individual. And when I failed and when I did not stay, it greatly disappointed her because I know that she would have, I know that she was like, wow, she’s, she’s finding a sense of something that she denied now that I was past that point that I, that I wasn’t going to church because she had the same light in her eyes as when I became a Catholic. There was like a, she’s finding something. So she was living vicariously for you, but I, yeah, I wouldn’t say she was living vicariously for me because she never actually forced anything. She, she just merely Well, I mean emotionally. admired. Yeah, no, she merely admired that I took the risk to do something to find a better sense, groundedness, you know, because But it’s interesting because you, you didn’t have that feeling in, in Europe, did you? Of connectedness? Yeah. You know, in a funny way, yes, I did because I, I had always, like I had, I, my, going to grandmother’s house or at least one grandmother’s house was getting on a plane flight to go to Japan for like a month or two. So going over there and being this and not speaking Japanese, automatically gaijin, you’re, you’re a foreigner. So I knew, so I felt comfortable being a foreigner because I had been raised in, in that and, and accepted as a foreigner, even though I was a family member. So I was, I was treated as family, but I was, I was a foreigner family as opposed to a like family, Japanese, fellow Japanese family. So going to another country and living there did not feel weird to me because I had already, I had already experienced what it was like not being of that completely or at all. Right. So to me, like I felt, it’s, it’s one part of my life I wish I would have just stayed and it would have like fun endurance to stay because there was that connectedness there. So, okay. Yeah, it’s a weird thing. I’m probably going to butcher this, but you said, it’s okay. Being in a collective as an individual. So do you feel like being the foreigner is that which allows you to keep your individualism? And now that I think of it, like that’s also a lack of commitment, right? Because you haven’t integrated, you haven’t nationalized. Well, I did. Well, I know that that takes a while to do. I think more so what it is. I think what, what it was, was I think the way, the reason why it was fine for me to be comfortable for me to be a foreigner is because I was open to being taught how things were supposed to be. Okay. And you don’t have that thing? How can I be a part of this? Teach me your ways. And you didn’t have that in America? Sure. Because you got to find yourself. You got to, you like, you are encouraged to find yourself, to find your own path. The, that is the, I would say like the spirit of America is to create something new from your, for yourself out of nothing, you know? And you will somehow like get an idea or a vision as you are pioneering to the next destination. Like I think that’s so embedded in the psyche here. And it’s, it’s, it’s great if you are someone who is an adventurer and can kind of find out how you settle in a place once it’s there, like when you have the discernment. Because when you listen to stories about pioneers and people coming over here, they came for a hope and a dream, a hope and a dream. And they, they held on to whatever that hope and dream was, and they didn’t even know what it was. And then when they knew that it was time to settle, they settled. Like it’s, it, I like, it’s beautiful. But at the same time, I think the majority of us do have to have some bit of instruction of like, this is what you do. You know, there’s a, because a lot of people here, we’re only a lot, a lot, there’s many generations that are only here because they were, that is because they were came over, they came over here and they were, or they were brought over here. And they had to like figure it out. Well, but they were like, there was a heavy religious and cultural component in most of that still. Right. But not a, but not a cohesive one, like individual church one. Yeah. Well, I think, I think that might have been something that developed later on. But no, no. Like, the Catholics, they have very strong cohesiveness, which there is a division or there was a division at one point with Italians and like Irish communities for sure. Like not, but all the other, but like, I would say the Protestant branch, they, they have a, they, they had a really early split. I mean, like, you know, the, the pilgrims coming over in Plymouth, they were not a part of the wider Anglican church at that point. Like, right, right. Like I’m, I’m not, I’m not trying to make a universality argument, but I’m like, even the Protestant churches, right. They, they get it around nationality, language, common purpose, like farming or whatever. Right. Like there was, there was this sense of community and binding that, that did happen on, I don’t think is happening anymore. Right. Like that social structure that was there, like didn’t, didn’t persist through time because of the individualist aspect that you’re talking about now. Like I think that’s a fairly recent development, at least in the way that it’s manifesting now. Because you, you, you, you, you couldn’t really be independent, like in the start, right. Like, like that, I don’t think there was an option. Like, yeah, yeah. All of these networks, right. Where, where the Irish go. It was probably, I would have to say maybe we can, maybe the point of, of it was the westward expansion because moving westward was definitely an individual choice. Like. Yeah, that’s for the crazy people. Yeah, that’s for the crazy people. Yeah, exactly. All the crazy people went out west. Right. The only, but I think that the spirit of individualism has always just, it’s embedded in, and I’m not knocking being an American. I’m just saying like. Our revolution. Like our revolution, like the revolution that we had to, you know, become America and what the documents that are the basis of our very, the very structure of our government, of our federal government is laid upon like an individuality. I agree, right. That spirit is definitely in the background. Yeah. But I’m just, I’m just making a distinction with how it’s now and in the past. But. Oh yeah. I mean, like the thing is, is that things like that, like just because you declare something in a document doesn’t mean that like automatically everybody becomes like that. I mean, there’s, there’s so many ties that you just can’t break through. I, I’m, I’m sure. Cause I think I heard it somewhere. I think I heard it somewhere that even George Washington had still like certain aspects to him, like cultural aspects that came from, from Britain, you know, because he was, that’s where his family was ultimately felt like his lineage is connected to. So it’s like, you don’t break off those things. It just, it dies, it’s things that the next generation either accepts or denies. Well, it’s, it’s interesting because if you, if you take the Dutch immigrants, right, like they, they come in a wave, right? So they keep the culture from when they left and then the Netherlands changes, right. But they’re trying to maintain what they do with them. You get this dissonance and these time capsules and yeah, that’s fascinating. Yeah, no, there’s this, so there is a series called American Girl and each of the American girls, like these 10, they’re like 10, 11 year old girls. They all tell a different story of like, basically I would say the inception of America. And one of them was a Swedish immigrant, Kirsten, and she, like the first book was her on a boat and like her on a boat coming over here through Alice Island. I think that’s, yeah, that’s probably where she landed. Yes, because they were in New York and her remembering like things that they happened in Sweden and then they settled in Minnesota. And like over time, you kind of, you see that like they still were maintaining their Swedishness, but like there’s like a, a, an assimilation that happens to like be something more American, which of course at that time, because I forgot what her, I think it’s like, I think she was like maybe the doll that represented this community in like, what, seven, 1800s? See, I had to look up when she lived. I’m not good with dates, but all I know is that, like all I know is that you kind of see like that being like, you see the seeds of like the, the moving away from your motherland, but like still maintaining it sort of hodgepodge thing. So, yeah, when, when I talk to women, like I, I get the sense that they’re really sensitive to cultural osmosis. Right. So, so you, you were feeling the oppressive nature of the individualist spirit in America in a way that, that wasn’t there in, in London. Okay. Yeah. All right. And so, yeah, let’s, let’s keep, keep going. Right. So you come back. Did you immediately go to do the, what was it? The interior design? No. Yeah. No. So, so you, you work in the service industry then? I worked in the service industry and then I went back to school and I, and then I, well, I worked in the service industry and then I had. Did that provide your community? Is that something that like completely captured, captured you in some sense? Yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed going to my work, to my job every day. And then I had, I found out that I was going to have a baby girl. And that set off, that changed everything in my life. Having her and. So in what way, like, did, did that change your priorities? And it made me start to ask the question of, how am I supposed to be in this world? Like, what is, what is my path? Because now there’s someone that we lie that that’s relying on me for care. And part of that care is like directing her. How can I even do that if I don’t even know? And so why, why didn’t you ask yourself that question before? Or like, like, is there a new way that you could ask that question to yourself? Like, like, how did that work? Why didn’t, like, why didn’t I ask before? I didn’t ask before because I, like, I didn’t think about it. I was just an emotional, impulsive person. Like, I didn’t think about it. I just, you go with the, you go with the flow. You go with the flow and life will take you where it takes you. But that is when it started to become intentional because it had to be. Yeah. So you got grounded by it. Like there was an external thing that, right? Like it’s. Yeah. In post community. Yeah. And here’s the thing is like, it’s, it’s so interesting because like, when you are allowed to be in like run an individualism and being an individual, it’s all fun and games when you are like, when you don’t have kids, but it’s funny how the community, once you have a kid, it expects you to just have your stuff together and provide stability because it knows that that’s what kids need. And it’s just very, it’s, that was such an interesting shift because the people around me, they had, they had different expectations because I needed to be here. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s just like, I had never noticed that before because it was never something that was brought to notice. Cause it was never something that was brought to notice. And that was when it became clear that there was a stability that needed to happen of some sort. And it did that alienate you as well from those people because they just couldn’t participate with you anymore. Yeah. My old, like the, the life that I was living beforehand with the friends that I had, I like, I was the first of my friends to have kids. And to be perfectly honest, all the friends that I, that had kids, like they’ve only had kids in the past, like five years. So I had, I was in it by myself because I was 23. I, and I’m 38 now. So I was in it by myself to figure it out by myself, to try to integrate who I am inherently with who I needed to become, who I needed to become in this role. And that’s when I started looking, that’s when I started the, that I would say that that is when I really started to take it seriously and capture on because then I met my husband and it was alluring the, of being told I wasn’t a Christian for one. And that there was, and that like, and being brought to a church that did have a sense of community. And that was what I rode with. Like when, when I started, when I started to be a Protestant and, and everything. And there was an, it was the allurement of the community with a stability of a stability of like getting answers or guidance. And yeah, like that was, that was like the. Right. Did they actually do that or did they give you the sense of that they were doing that? They gave me the sense. They gave me the sense. Like I think they did, like, you know what, I think they did, but like they just gave me more of a sense of it. I mean, like there’s a difference between knowing that there’s like something there and then also now being more settled in my faith, having the eyes to see like, that’s not the most productive, like good way. Does that make, yeah. Like, yeah, but, but there was something true about what they were doing. Yes. They’re like, they were genuine people and they were there for, for people. I mean, like when I, when I started having our sons, like, they ha they would bring pre-made meals. And for me, like that first, the first couple of weeks for the family to eat, because they knew like, you know, the wife can’t, can’t do anything or shouldn’t do anything. Cause she just had a baby. Let’s take care of her. So they, they had that, you know, like they had that, that, that community to it. And it was the, it was, it was an introduction of what definitely could be my having my daughter just triggered that sense of needing that. And so then I equated that connection to having a husband to create this family and have a cohesive family that was a building block of a community, as opposed to just me being one block in a community. It was like, ah, like I, I, I had this, this, I have this child, I need to create like a sense of unity to fit in, you know, like it’s not good that I, it’s not good that I, that I do this by myself with this child. Like I need more for this child. So like, is there, I got a sense that there’s something in the background of this fitting in of your youth that- Yeah. But you, here’s the thing is that you, we found one topic to talk about, and that is what’s so complex about these things is that the lived experience has so many multiple levels. Like that’s why it’s like you, like having one, one topic, it’s like, that’s like a different video. No, no, I’m just, I’m just like, so that’s still the same spirit that’s driving you down. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And, and, and- Oh, that’s where you’re gonna get, yeah. No, it’s still the same. Do you feel that you, you still got misguided by that spirit in some sense? Cause I, I think I’ll always struggle with that. I think I’ll always struggle with that because I think that there, it’s not about like, I think we have a misunderstanding of what perfection is in the faith from our point of views. Like we feel like somehow these things are going to go away, right? That may be true about certain aspects that you fall into, you know, like I, like I’ll give an example. I still love having gatherings, you know, like going to dinners, going, going to, going to dinners, having festivals and dancing, but I have no inclination of like going to bars and drinking and, and going to clubs and dancing, like none of that, like there’s not a moment. And I’ve like, even now, like I’ve, I’ve, you know, my kids have been with grandma for like, you know, months, weeks now that, that at any point had that old me really been there, I would have been going and partying. I would have done that, you know, like I would have felt like I needed to like reclaim my youth and my independence and all of that. I don’t struggle with that, right? However, going back to your question, like I think I will always struggle with what I would call people pleasing. I think it will always struggle with that. It’s just something that I think is, is, is the sort of a darker aspect of me that I just acknowledge exists and will probably be with me for the rest of my days. Now, whether I act on it and what I do with it is a different thing that I, that I really cling on to, to guard myself, not to give into. So I don’t have, I don’t have a sense of shame where I feel like, like, like I have, I have, there is a, a sense of shame that I have over now coming into a space of being divorced. You know, I’m not proud of it. I’m not happy of it. I, I, like, I know over the years, I’ve read articles about people having divorce parties and separation parties and everything. I think it’s disgusting. Like there’s, there is like a sense of shame that it’s come to this, right? That being said, I don’t suddenly have the same impulse. I don’t have the same impulse that I feel that I need to now line up another husband, you know, like I don’t, I don’t that, but I do, I would love to have that because I, I believe in the sacrament of marriage. I believe in what marriage is, right? So it’s like, there is the, I guess the fact, and then there is like the fact, and then the feeling with that fact. And then there is the, but I know that I cannot let the other side of wanting to have it all together. Yeah. Like I’m not going to like make, I’m not going to suddenly make decisions to make up for that. You know, if it’s something that is not within God’s will to happen again, well, I ha I, I accept that as difficult as it may be to live within that will and to do as well, that I will continue to go down that path as opposed to my own path, you know. Okay. So the other thing that stood out to me is, right? You, you, you said things became clear, right? And you recognize the needs that, that the church was providing in, right? So like, it seems like you got, you got a level of discernment, level of capacity to ask the right questions. And maybe you lack the judgment that was associated with asking those questions, right? Like, because, because, well, it was new, right? Like what was a new way of relating for you? So, yeah. You think, you think that’s an accurate description? Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so, so yeah, maybe I guess I want, I want a reflection. Like you think that’s just unavoidable that you just end up with these, oh, this is the right way. But if you’re not grounded in a community and tradition, there’s no way to evaluate the quality of the thing that seems right. Yeah. I think so. Like once you start, like, sometimes your choices are bad choices. Sometimes you’re not, like a lot of us are not as wise as we want, like as we think ourselves to be. So what does our discernment really mean? Right? So looking at, looking at other traditions or cultures and whether that’s historic, like in a historical sense, like looking back at how families were in America, right? You read books on that or traveling to a different culture. You, like, if you don’t, yeah, it’s like the echo chamber. It’s like if you don’t actually kind of look into it, you can’t question the quality of it. You know, sometimes you have to look outside to question the quality. Okay. So, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, I like that. I like that. So you, you go to Protestantism, you re-engage with faith, you re-engage with true community. And what happens? You leave the church? Yeah, in a manner of speaking. But yes, yes, left the church and then it came up. I mean, what happened? It was not really 100% my story to tell. But so I’ll just like leave that part private. But in the end, I did take up the mantle to explore orthodoxy when it became an option. Yeah. And you did that from your marriage, right? And then you answer into orthodoxy. So what is the questions that orthodoxy answered that the Protestant church did not provide sufficient grounding? How, how can you live with yourself when you know that you do, that you do bad thing or that you sin? How? Because it’s not going away. This feeling is not going away. This wanting is not going away. How, how do you live with that? Like for the rest, how do you live with that? There’s no, to me in my, in my time in Protestantism, there was this need to just be better, right? To work, to work toward being better, right? And although that is true in orthodoxy, it’s not the same. You know, it’s, there is, there’s a freedom of acknowledging that this is something that’s always going to be a difficulty for you. And that’s fine because it’s not about making it go away because this is a fallen world. There’s going to be lots of things that come in. There’s going to be lots of temptations that’ll happen. Like you are going to fail. You are set up to fail multiple times because of your own iniquities. Like you, but that’s okay. That is, that is okay. And, and you don’t have to do that privately and alone. You can commune with others. You can talk with others. You’ll have, you’ll have sponsors, Godparents. But most importantly, you will have to participate in a sacrament in which, you will have to participate in a sacrament in which someone that’s a human, that’s ordained, will have to listen to your confessed sins. And even though he’s not the one that absolves you, it’s God that absolves you, you’re going to have to make it a public thing. And there’s a freedom in that because it’s like someone knows, someone knows that, that behind the laughter, behind the smiles, behind the hospitality, there’s a struggling person. And they don’t hold it against you. They want to help you and guide you, you know. And there’s a beauty in that. And that’s in the Catholic Church too. Don’t get me wrong, but you know, we don’t need to go into reasons why I didn’t go back to being a Catholic. That’s again, different topic. That’ll send us down a road. But- So I want to contrast it to the Protestant Church. So what made you unable to get that in the Protestant Church? Unable to get it because- Unable to get it because it was like a- there felt something wrong about denying something that was so inherent in me, you know. Like this thing, these impulses, these feelings that I have, you just have, it’s like you pray it away, you know. You pray it away for it to go away rather than knowing that it’s going to be there, are you ready to fight? And the fight also within Protestantism was more about the world as opposed to yourself, you know. There was just a lot of judgmentalism about looking out into the world and criticizing the world as opposed to just examining yourself. Minding your own business and examining yourself. You’re saying that there’s a lack of responsibility in the Protestantism? No, no, I would say it’s more of a, your responsibility is to tell everybody else why they’re doing what they’re doing wrong. So the responsibility is mis-framed? Yeah. I would say that, yeah. The way that you described it is that they’re acting as mini gods, passing out the law? You said it, not me. Okay, well that hit the spot. Good. I’m like, you said it, not me. There’s a legalism that happens, even if they’re talking about like, oh, even if that’s something, but there’s a legalism. There has been such a freedom becoming Orthodox, why? Because I don’t have to say, even this conversation, I can hear someone say she’s wrong, right? And yeah, it’ll hurt my ego because I still have that. I don’t have to say, I don’t have to say, I don’t have to say, I don’t have to say, I don’t have to say, I don’t Right? And yeah, it’ll hurt my ego because I still have that. But I’m willing to admit that parts and pieces of this whole journey that we’ve been on in this conversation are wrong. My perceptions are wrong. My wording is wrong. I didn’t have that freedom because it’s like, there’s always reading, reading, reading, reading, studying, studying, studying, like understanding, understanding. And it’s like a rush to be an A plus student in theology, whereas like, now it’s perfectly like, it’s perfectly okay. In fact, it’s encouraged to almost be seen as the village idiot, because you just don’t know. And it’s okay to not know. And yet, because you don’t have to, like defending of the faith is not predicated on you being able to speak about your faith. It is predicated on you being told that you have to do something that you know, God does not want you to do. And to have the courage to say it, because in the end, he and the armor that he’s provided through prayer, fasting, all of those things are going to be there for you. And that it’s not about this life. You know, like it’s not about this life. It’s about the next one. There’s something beyond this. And so if this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you, because you have to say, I’m a Christian and I can’t do this, this is not it. Like, just know that there’s something better beyond that. I mean, like, that’s what the saints, the martyred saints, like, represent. That’s what their stories are. That’s what the saints that were seen as weird, because they were eight bugs, or they were like in the desert. That’s what they had to experience. And then there were saints that lived in villages that like, you know, they were villages that like, you know, they were scandalized, and whatnot, and they just accepted it. Because it was about you and God, as opposed to what other people, as opposed to you defending yourself for the sake of your own pride, quite possibly, most likely, you know, I was I was going to bring that in right. So because, like, the way that you described a plus theological student, like, it means that that implies that you can know something. And to the knowing of God, you become a better person or whatever, or you resolve the issue. And there’s a hubris in that, right? Where, where it’s like, bringing heaven down to you. Yeah, there’s this wonderful, there’s this one wonderful podcast from, I always get, it’s Father John, but I always forget his last, Father John Strickland, called Paradise and Utopia. And it goes over the history of the church, and basically examines things from the Western and the Eastern church, where the Eastern church views things as paradise, like moving toward paradise, going toward paradise, right? Whereas Utopia is this idea of the West, of like, bringing heaven to earth, right? Heaven on earth. And it’s very interesting to see, to hear about the historical kind of diversions of that. And that is, that is what I always think of. That’s what I know that I fell into, is like, I have to evangelize for these things, almost as if God can’t do it himself. You know? Like, there’s a pride that you get, like, I know scripture, therefore, I have, like, I know scripture, therefore, like, God can, like, I can defend God, and God doesn’t need our defense, right? And then there is just, like, I think it’s allowed for so many people to believe that they’re experts when they’re really not. And we have, like, this abundance of people that have charismatic personalities in which they can have the influence of seeming like they have the expertise. And I think it’s like, because we associate assertiveness with expert expertise, it comes together in this way. I don’t know how to explain it. Let’s drop it. No, no, I’m definitely not gonna drop this. Well, why don’t we just say that for a different time? I definitely want to, yeah, go about this a different time. I just want to point out, right, like, God cannot do it for himself. So I want to connect that to faith. Do you, did your conception of what having faith is change? Yeah. Okay. So can you say something about that? Yeah. Faith is, faith is not about what you can do for God, but what God can do for you, because you need it. He doesn’t. Like, he doesn’t. You need it. And you need it badly. And you don’t know how much you need it. And even when you think that you don’t need it anymore, because of your own pride, hey, look, there’s something else that comes up in your life. Like, Yeah, you’re gonna need it. How you’re handling it. Yeah, right. That was you go into the new situation. You know you need it, but you can’t judge the quality, right? That’s where you need God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, and then now you’re, well, we kind of went over that here in the schools of children, right? So you’re providing the communal experience or you’re participating in the communal experience on multiple dimensions. Is that something you’d like to add? Like, Like, I don’t know. No? Okay. Well, no, no, no, no. I don’t know. That’s fine. So I just, I just want to like rehash. Oh, yeah, no, no, it’s fine. We went through it. So you’re now in some sense, right? Like you’re still dealing with the repercussion from the divorce, right? So you’re not grounded completely in the community, right? And you say like over the last two years, like being in the faith journey is actually made it real, right? Like, like, community, and you get the sense that you kind of have like a bit of the true flavor of what it’s supposed to be. Yeah. And, and how it can, and, and how I can have that in the world, because it’s not about siloing yourself into just that. It’s like, how can you put that out into the world? You know, to remember that to everybody that you encounter. So that’s giving giving back to the world. So yeah, I want to go five years into the future. So everything goes, goes perfectly, right? Like, everything happens according to the will of God. You, you end up perfectly integrating your community, your children take on their responsibility within the community. So what does life look like in five years? I don’t know. I don’t know. I honestly don’t. I can tell you what I hope it looks like. But I Yeah, yeah, that’s No, no, that’s like, not gonna say that out loud. Why not? You think you’re gonna jinx it by saying it? No, it’s just kind of, I don’t. I try not to. I try not to get too excited about things. Too many expectations. Well, it’s not about expectations. It’s about aspirations. Aspirations. Well, aspirations would be, I don’t know how big, like, does this mean? Does this mean I have an infinite amount of money? Like, what are the print? I’m kidding. I’m kidding. I know. I know what you mean. I know you mean. You have infinite whatever, right? Like, I am a billionaire by doing this billionaire thing. And this is what five years would look like. No. Well, how materialist of you. No, how, what I can only, I think the only aspiration that I actually just really have is to center my life and my children’s life around service to communities. Mm-hmm. And to put more emphasis on giving time to that, as opposed to their own accolades. That’s the, and my own, you know? Like, I know I’m doing, like, streaming and some, and I’m going to, you know, like, put out videos, like, you know, playing video games and stuff. But those are just things that I just, they’re fun to do. But I don’t care if something comes out of it, right? So I hope to still be doing that, just out of fun. And, but really just kind of centering things on building communities and encouraging people to assimilate back into their communities. That would be nice. And we’re talking about an aspiration is to try and get people offline than online. So like the opposite of trying to get popularity. Getting popularity. The opposite of making videos about gaming, the opposite of that. The opposite of capturing people and then, capturing people and then being like, hey, go out and do this and talk about it. Because sometimes, maybe some people don’t have the encouragement. So the church has a budget of a million dollars and they’re like, yes, we love your vision. Here you got a million dollars to implement. What would I do? Yeah. Start schools. Okay. So what would be your involvement and how would your children be involved in starting those schools? See, now we’re going into Dreamland now because I actually had thought about how much I would love to have more Orthodox schools, Orthodox based schools, but even if not Orthodox schools that were based around more based around community and home economics as opposed to just making money. Like obviously making money is a good, like it’s not evil to make money. It’s just more of the emphasis on like you’re getting that and what are you going to do with that? Like, do you know what you’re going to do with that? How much is too much? Things like that. How you can just have a more grounded life by way of learning about the fundamentals that we all have to live with. Like, you know, having a budget, learning how to cook, reading comprehension and grammar to be able to communicate better and things like that. Like it would be great if the focus of the education could be about human skills as opposed to just getting a job, qualifying for a job, you know, those realities. What would your role be? Would you manage the school? Would you want to educate the kids yourself? Do you want to make the curriculum? Like what’s your role? Maybe be a part of the curriculum, but like help do the fundraising, keep it sustainable, things like that. Yeah. So you see yourself in a structural support role there, doesn’t it? Yeah, yes. Okay. And your children? Like what do you see them doing? Participating in it? Just rolling with the punches until they’re old enough and then hopefully they are part of that. I don’t know. I mean, like if this is five years, that means I have a 15-year-old. That means I have a 20-year-old. Wow. 20-year-old, a 15-year-old and a 12-year-old, 13-year-old. I mean, 13-year-old. So 13, 15 and 20-year-old. So I mean, like that’s a… They’re at different junctions in their life. I don’t know what they would be doing, you know? No, no, but you get to pick in this scenario. Oh, I get to pick. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. So, well, then that means… Just watch it, kids. Yeah, I think really it would just be their participation in building it, you know? Because I would hope that because of the places in their life, especially the younger ones since this is a school, that they would know the questions that their peers have, but maybe they’re too afraid to ask. Do they have to be used to hear? And stuff like, well, if they ask the question, maybe the reason why they’re asking it to their friends is because they’re afraid to ask it to their adults around them because I know that was me as well. And I think a lot of people acknowledge that. But I hear questions that my daughter asks me and then she says it’s because her friend had asked the question and she didn’t really know how to ask. And because I know them, I know probably the reason why they can ask that. And so they have insights of big questions that I think a lot of us have on different levels, but we don’t understand them at the place of young people because we’ve lost that. It’s like an aspect of Peter Pan, like the opposite, where we turn into grownups and then we lose all sense of understanding of what it was like to be a child and have questions. Yeah, it reminds me of this, I forgot exactly the quote that I had heard, but I was told by GK Chesterton, it’s maybe it’s not that God has grown old, but that he remains a child and we’ve outgrown him or grown up. Basically that- Grown away. Yeah, like basically that we, that what we describe as grownups having these rules, regulations, these curmudgeoning things, maybe God is still youthful, you know? Is still youthful. Is still youthful. Why is- Eternal renewal. Constant dying to the moment. Yeah, so it’s just, you know, so kids have insights. We just need to try to understand what it is that they’re inciting. So yeah, well, that’s nice that you have that relationship, right? That they are able to ask you these questions, right? And yeah, like imparting this capacity to answer that question for their peers, right? And maybe more important, right? Like giving them the ears to hear the question in the first place, right? Because like that’s more important than having the answer because you can find the answer. So yeah, I think that that is a value that has been disregarded in society. And the other thing that I picked up is, right, like you said, that they participate in the building, right? And in some sense, that’s imparting something of yourself in there, right? But also the other way, right? Like there are imparts in you, right? And that, well, that’s a different type of binding, right? Like it’s- Right. Right. It’s being bound by share. Is it fate? Not really fate, but shared identity at least, right? Yeah. So like, are there ways that you see yourself facilitating that? Like what are things you’d have to do to make these qualities occur? In my kids? Well, yeah, changes in your own behavior so that you can do it for your kids, right? It changes that- That’s the hard question. It’s basic level consistency. I think that’s the number one thing, being consistent. Consistent doesn’t mean not having better understandings, you’re not growing. Consistency is that- Reliability over time. Yes. Is reliability over time. It’s like you can be- someone can know you for 35 years and they could still describe you with the same adjectives because those are the things that are enduring about you, even though you have failed or you’ve grown or whatever the case may be. 100%. So I think really just that, consistency. I think that you will always get- You will always get- well, it’s like it’s the reap what you sow. So how do you sow? So, you sow by way of speaking less and only speaking when it is important. So not micromanaging every single aspect of like a little tick or a little thing, letting it be. Letting God work. Yeah, letting it be. So yeah. But- So then the last thing, are there any steps that you could be taking to making that school a reality? Any- anything? Wow. Because that’s not even on my radar. So I have nothing there. Well, yeah. I’m putting it on your radar. You’re putting it on my radar. I don’t know. I haven’t even thought about how you do things like that. You know? Like- That’s the thing that you could be doing. Yes. That is an action item I could be doing. I mean, the one thing that I know where I would like to just start, and it’s not really just like- it’s not like a school thing. It’s just more of a- I would like to, because it’s always- it’s been on my mind. I would like to start like a- a periodical magazine quarterly for women and children. Like one for women, one for children. That is more about reading and understanding and conversing than about buying. As much as I love beautiful pictures and beautiful- beautiful pictures and beautiful clothes. Like that will still- that would still be there because I love it. But as- but not be a whole thing of advertising, right? But encouraging participation of all sorts of- all sorts of different ways that we can be integrated women. You know? Whether it be that we have to work, because the reality is that some of us will have to work. But not being held down by that. Whether you want to be what we call a homesteader. Like if you can think of a sort of label that’s out there as trends to examine those labels in an implicit way. So not like say- not be like, so why it’s bad to be like this, right? Examining the whys of that and being like, oh I never really understood that. And then- So is that- are you saying that there’s- you’re trying to invite a generative way to commune as women among women? Yeah. But in a way of a publication in which it’s just like, oh I never thought about this. Let me share this or talk about this or whatever. And conversations and then seeing different walks of life as opposed to just like rich elite. Those are such buzzwords but notable people. You know? The online space has opened up the doors for just the common woman to have a platform of some sort. And there’s a lot of women that do interesting things. Like the ones that have a craft, an artisanship, something that they do that they love doing or participating in an environment that they love being in. Like raising cattle or whatever. And the ones that I see online, like you could tell, especially because like the numbers are not popular. You know? Like they are just doing it because they love to do it and they want to show people that this is a way that you can live your life. Just one way. Just one way you can do this and live in certain values. And so connecting all of that around these topics of things that we experience. Like marriage, kids, different ages of kids. Like different topics. I mean, there’s just, there are some magazines that I kind of have bookmarked that I love the format even though not the content exactly, you know? Or like the drive of it. But I love that they focus on one aspect, you know? And then also to encourage living in more of the fantasy. So having fictional short stories, you know? Encouraging new writers to submit their narratives that, you know, revolve around a theme. And like having that. Because one of the things I wish that we still had was this robust printing. Like printing, because, you know, obviously with each technology that has come into where it captures the visual, we have lost the, because it is still visual, but like the more bookish things. There was a time where magazines like Penny magazines, magazines that you buy for a penny or like newspapers, whatever, like bigger, small, where you would have up and coming people writing their stories, you know? Those ideas of like the starving artist that has this dream of like being able to publish their novel or something. Some of the biggest names in writing of the past all started with like, you know, a short story. Someone more modern like Rod Zerling, he, you know, we know him for Twilight Zone and his mind behind the Twilight Zone, but he actually started off like, you know, writing short stories and doing shorts. And that’s, that would, it would be wonderful to encourage the arts in that way. Of people, it’s not about trying to get fame, but just kind of like getting their work out there and not having to adhere to something like SEO or popularity. So that’s kind of the integration of that. And here I am like talking about this whole idea on this right now, but that would be, that would be something that I would love to do. And then as far as like the kids version of it, it would be more of a, the same things, but more of, of like, I would say fairy tales and mischief, you know, how, and, and I mean like cute, playful mischief. I think I was telling Sally and you or someone, there’s this book that I don’t even know how I’d gotten, got, got a hold of it, but it’s called The Dangerous Book for Boys. And really what it is, it’s like these different activities that you can do that, like, like how to tie a rope, things like that. And it’s, and what I find fun about it is like something like how to do knots or something. If you make a strong knot, you can do a lot of things with that, that thing, you know, and that could be a, quote, dangerous thing to know. And it’s like, it makes it this big elusive thing. And then there’s this mischief that happens with it. And, and I would love to have like a more directed, proper mischief than trying to play silly pranks on people and recording them, you know what I mean? Like, the imaginative part of mischief, what I call mischief. So yeah, anyway, those are the things, because I, I, I know. So you know, you know what, don’t fill in for me. So you, what, what I. It was more like I was trying, I was going to tell you something, to do something. Be mischievous. Okay. No, go to bed. Yeah, well. Go to bed because I’m keeping you up from my set of the world. So what I’m hearing you say is a fact of the, or I guess I imagined this, right? So there’s a, a magazine like that, right? Creates a shared reality. Right. And you’re, you’re trying to invite people to participate in that shared reality so that you can commune. You can find it. Because, because there’s a fragmentation in the internet right now where everybody’s consuming different things and the cohesion is gone. And I like, I feel that you’re inviting a participation that can be established that cohesion. Mm hmm. Yes. That we’re all that in the end, we all have more similarities than we do differences and that there is more one there. There’s more than one way to be what you are in this world and more than one direction that you can take with that. I guess you could say. There’s a fullness of the human. Yes. Well, that that that is a really sweet message to to end up fun. So yeah, like, is there a lesson that you drew from the conversation? Some something that you learn about yourself or. That’s not so scary to be recorded and talking to a friend. Okay. I guess I guess I succeeded in one thing. Now, I think you succeeded in many things. All the viewers get to decide whether I succeeded in other things. Oh, I think you did. Everybody tell him that he succeeded. Okay. Press the like and subscribe. Press the like and subscribe and watch for more videos from Manuel. Yeah, and also leave a comment with the takeaways that you have and feedback from Femina because that’s kind of spirit that we were ending in, right? Like the communing and the shared reality and yeah, the giving. Giving well, maybe asking the question that needs she needs to ask so that she can find. Get the answer. Yeah. Well, I thank you because I thank you for being persistent because I most likely would never have knocked on your door to be like, hey, let me be on your channel. So thank you for being persistent. Well, to get me out of my shell. You got me to participate in something I was nervous and participating in. So, right. And you did a great job. I think you provided some valuable insight for people and ways to reflect on their own experiences. And yeah, I think that is actually well, that’s why I do it. Right. So, well, you do a good job with it. So keep going. So thanks, everybody, for watching. Thank you. And see you next time. Yep. Bye.