https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=r5Pr8wmyaow
Welcome everybody. Today we’re going to have another episode of Unfolding the Soul. This time my guest is going to be Ezra. I met him in line by line, which we’ll be linking to in the description. So we’ve talked about a bunch of songs and that’s actually the topic of his Unfolding songs and yeah he’s been kind of surprising me with his song choices and his interpretations so I think it will be promising. So yeah Ezra, like what do you think a song is and what does it mean to you? Well yeah so I think of a song as, I think of a song as this thing that’s you know some set of minutes long and it has music and it has lyrics. That’s mostly what I think of as a song. What’s the purpose? The purpose. I think my understanding of the purpose has evolved over time. But now I think of songs as as almost like a device, like a technology to connect to reality, disclose reality, or kind of attempt to connect to some kind of wisdom or some kind of truth. And then we can put it in the song and we can share it with each other and yeah just thinking more and more of art in those terms as kind of a something that serves a higher purpose. So what’s the purpose it is serving for you? I may be in conflict a bit about that because on one level like the kind of main purpose songs serve for me whether it’s you know listening to songs or whether it’s writing songs or performing songs. I’m always looking for this connection to reality, to something real or to learn, grow, understand. Basically understand I think feels the strongest. It’s like that’s what they’re about to me but I do feel conflicted because there’s also I have a lot of conflict about the public and private when it comes to things like this. The role of performing songs or sharing your writing with somebody else is a lot harder for me to navigate than the sort of just the first person of like what I get out of songs and yeah so I definitely still am in some conflict about that. Well we’ll definitely get to that I think. So yeah like tell us about your first experience or your first realization that songs were something and how that affected you? So songs have a lot of conflict and I think that’s what I’m talking about. How did it affect you? So songs have always been a part of my life as far back as I can remember. As a very as a young child I had a Walkman and I would be playing songs out loud on the Walkman all the time and I was just getting these songs from mostly from my father and my older brothers and I’ve been told I would sing along to the lyrics of songs even at like before five years old and I would sing like this song Tweeter and the Monkey Man which is by Bob Dylan and it’s about like a trans Vietnam vet and her drug dealer boyfriend and I would sing this as like as a four-year-old. I didn’t understand the song at all. I think I thought it was about an actual like ape man but so songs were just like part of the water and then my dad would often play us songs on the guitar like popular songs from when he was younger. He really cared about songs a lot and he wrote songs and I would play those for us as well. So it was like songs were so much a part of my life that I didn’t totally notice them. I didn’t really notice what effect they were having because it was like such a part of life and then only as I got a little older did I start to become aware of like what I was getting out of songs and that like songs became really a way of understanding the world for me and of like self-discovery like what kind of songs I would be drawn to or really resonate with me would what sort of disclosed to me who I am and who I wanted to be and then I have had so many memories of sharing songs with people of literally like me and a brother or me and my friends like just listening to a song and really taking it in and then being like what did they say and go back and like what does this lyric mean and really feeling like songs could sort of open up the world and learning a lot from songs. So I want to step back a little bit because when I think about a five-year-old or my youth right like I think about children’s songs but your description sounded like you put thrown in the deep end. Yes so the closest thing to children’s songs that I had as a kid was the Beatles and so I was really into like Yellow Submarine, the film and these like Beatles songs some of their songs seemed almost like child songs in a way and I could understand I could like access them even as a well child but other than that it was a lot of just pop music and stuff filtered through my dad’s like when we went to bed at night my dad would sing us like Cat Stevens songs and stuff like as if they were so like folk songs he would sing them like as if they were child songs you know like as if this is relevant to you but they were they tended to be quite deep songs that I didn’t fully understand until way later. So you think that this digging into songs that you’re describing is that like a family tradition that you got sucked into? Yes definitely and uh yes my dad um yeah he wrote songs he cared very strongly about songs him and his brother would discuss songs they both played songs and very much valued songs and valued songs as songs like it wasn’t that my dad just loved certain artists or was like a music fan he seemed to really be into songs and like the words of the song and performing them and sharing them and talking about them. So do you think you have a focus on the verbal aspect of a song? Definitely definitely yeah and um and I always uh have had that and I remember it was one of the first things that became confusing to me was I was having this uh relationship with songs and then I would try to share it with other people and I would find that they had a different relationship you know so like people who don’t uh pay attention to the words of a song who primarily hear music as music and that was always a mystery to me because it’s like uh I had implicitly learned to really try to hone in on what was being said and uh what it meant and to see music as like uh an expression of the words in a way. So is that a thing that you later on captured or is that something that’s been alluding you ever since? The uh captured the uh well the more melodic uh yes yeah yes so I have developed that over time uh and to have a much deeper understanding of music which I think came from learning how to play music and that was kind of a departure in the family too because my brothers uh are less musical so I had these older brothers they cared just as much about songs but they uh were less musical. One of them plays an instrument the other doesn’t but they didn’t quite uh go as far into it and the further and further I’ve gone then I can understand uh you know like uh instrumental you know music and and uh take in music for its own sake so yeah those have become much more connected over time but the uh there’s still a focus on on the words and when I occasionally come across songs where the words seem like a total afterthought or like they almost don’t matter or um you know that that tends to not appeal to me very much. So what you were saying that you were sharing songs with your peers and I got the sense that there’s was a little bit of an alienation happening like so yeah so um I definitely think that this kind of uh maybe obsession with uh songs and art in general was uh a bit of an alienating thing it’s uncommon. I grew up in a small farm town in uh the center or central Illinois which is in the Midwest so the center of the center uh of a field and um the arts don’t have much of a hold in that place and then when I would find somebody who um really connected with songs in the same way um that would like become kind of what our relationship was based around like a lot of my uh friendships were built around uh when I eventually started playing the guitar it was like somebody else plays the guitar and not that many people did so then it was like okay we’re gonna be you know friends and I try to hang out with them and then you know my closest friendships were kind of with people who connected strongly with music and art. Yeah so I feel like there’s a sense that there was an intimacy that was afforded by the music do you also have the sense that because there was this well I’m just imagining here but like this hyper focus on the music aspect that the other departments got like left behind a little bit or or did you manage to to keep that into balance? Which part getting left behind? Well like the way to be have an intimate relationship with friends for example right like if you focus on the one aspect right like do you have space for the other aspects or is that all consuming in some sense? Yeah I think that it uh I think it was very much all consuming. And so it’s even I would say uh let’s say it’s a little bit of a culture of my family of the men in my family to almost communicate exclusively through media like to to talk about songs films uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh like other like art and media and pop culture instead of anything direct like it’s not like this is how I feel this is what I’m going through it’s like you have to pick apart that like well okay you’re talking about this pop culture artifact why would somebody talk about that maybe this is how you feel and uh I think that definitely affected me and yeah in a sense the like uh the true friendships were a little invisible because there was this need or a feeling of a need to connect about um about this thing in art like something that we were looking for uh from the art and so it was like you know people who wanted to do that it was like okay let’s you know do that and then all the kind of other social aspects were secondary and then um I would say some of the some of the people who would have made better friends perhaps in that in a more embodied sense um were like not important they were like you know uh less salient and so those uh friendships didn’t grow as much did you have recognition that they would be better friends or was it just not not till years later so so and uh in a sense I felt uh very disembodied uh as a young person which I didn’t realize until uh far later but it was like um it was like the world of songs was more real in a sense than than our day-to-day experience so did you feel like you had a sense of escapism or was it just uh a narrowed focus that that overruled yeah probably both yeah I think there there was a sense of an escapism and uh like finding it difficult to relate to the the world that was present right in front of me it’s like uh hard to relate to the the culture outside the family the culture of the town it’s a little hard to relate to for me and then it like always came back to this uh obsession with the arts so can you be more specific about what was hard what made it hard to relate yeah it was like um were you looking for something and they couldn’t give that or did you try and establish connections that they didn’t reciprocate or were you not establishing anything yeah like there were some there were some like uh like layers to it because there were some like uh like layers to it because um my father was so um eccentric and and and different from the town and this like uh connection to the arts and this um um creativity was like not what the town was about the town was extremely conservative it was um extremely religious and but the religious nature of the town was sort of uh it was like divisive in a way because it was like there wasn’t one I mean everyone was christian in the town but there wasn’t like one uh church there were like four or five churches that were all very different and so um there was uh like one church that sort of dominated that town was like uh kind of extremely uh conservative where um children children weren’t really allowed to uh connect to pop culture so like they didn’t uh a lot of them did not own a television the the kids were not uh online and stuff in the early internet and there was like this negative view of uh the cold pop culture and the culture outside of the town came from that church and it affected the whole town even though not everyone was a member of that church and so you know and uh just being from that small of a town so like the uh like my graduating class in high school was 60 people the town had 2 000 people and was fairly and the neighboring towns were fairly small as well so it’s just like this distance from like basically my dad had raised us to like really locked into pop culture movies and films and popular music and that was like not what the town was about and then um my dad was very active in our uh in our church but eventually um we left the church and then that didn’t even have a role in life anymore was that due to conflict or just disinterest in a sense there was conflict so there was some uh like family drama connected to the church but ultimately like my oldest brother uh kind of rejected the church because of their politics and some of their ideology and then I just kind of was like well I’m not interested in it either anymore and then it just was no longer a part of our lives was was the music in the church a thing that stood with you well so the music like my dad was actually um he was sort of a church leader when I was quite young and he performed music and he would like write songs that were uh about Christianity and they were kind of uh they were very philosophical and almost challenging type of songs in their way and so I really connected music and my father and then when we left the church it was like um it was like the music didn’t you know was still there because my my dad was still there you know okay so I guess I guess we’re at kind of high school years right yeah exactly so around then is when I uh like it must have been building over time but it seemed kind of sudden so suddenly I wanted to play music so I had never played I I had just uh listened and right around 14 maybe 13 14 I uh I’m like asked my dad to show me you know some chords on the guitar I asked him to teach me a song like a popular song I knew and then I was like often running uh writing songs all the time so so you were already writing so the was was the learning display uh to support the writing basically yeah I like I said I learned one song and then uh immediately started writing songs and um you know and like when I knew like you know four chords then I wrote you know song with two chords and then it was just uh I was like compelled to be writing and it was kind of uh kind of uh it was very powerful feeling because it was like entering the world of songs you know so I would write some the like the crudest improvised kind of composition and I would be like I wrote a song like that I like I’m connected now to this uh almost like a sacred thing and then it was like just wanting to do that all the time so that sounds like establishing territory so so was there also something that like you like a team that you recognized that you were trying to express or was it just just getting out there and being part of it like were you trying to live out your puberty through the music yes definitely and um and also like uh yeah I think it was it was multi-layered I was definitely living out my puberty I was definitely like had already established that art was uh it was like it was like it was like it was like a way for me to communicate so like uh even when I was like uh in junior high and stuff I would like make these printouts of song lyrics to songs I liked and like put graphics on them and then like pass them out and then talk to people about the songs and it was like a way of trying to connect to people but it seemed like it had to be on my terms and it was like you know we’re going to talk about what I want to talk about and then um or I would like write a little stories and then make copies for everyone and like okay now we’re going to talk about my story did it work it it like it always works to an extent but then there was like uh it was like always a little beyond you know so I was never getting like a uh it was rare to get a deep connection and there was this sense that I was seeking something in all of it that I was not getting so like in the songs I was trying to find something and then when I started writing it was like maybe now I’ll be able to find it you know but I it kept staying beyond my grasp and then in trying to connect to other people um it was uh the same you know it’s like I think I like would write one of my first songs and in my mind it was like okay I’m going to play this song for somebody and like then I’ll be understood and there’ll be like this powerful connection and it never you know quite happened like I imagined do you have a sense why it didn’t work now like uh I mean I think it in a sense is because it’s it’s it’s closed off in a way it’s like uh you know it’s like the song goes out there and and can connect to people but I was like always withdrawn a bit so the song becomes like uh it becomes like this thing we put out there instead of putting ourselves like fully out there so yeah it’s like then we could talk about it and it’s not me and that’s helpful that it’s not me you know that was that was not the answer I was expecting interesting so so is that a team that you kept up and and tried to to get different answers for the connection and tried to to get different answers for the connection yeah so like in high school well and then like my personal life um kind of uh exploded right around this time so my my dad left and uh and at the beginning of high school basically my dad left and then he struggled with severe mental health and uh alcoholism and then and and then I went like deeper and deeper into the songs and the songs became all about trying to connect to other people so it was like you know uh it was the puberty thing of writing all these like love songs and like trying to maybe like can we get uh find love through uh putting these songs out there and stuff which did not work and uh and also like a way of trying to connect to uh other friends and stuff and then um do you do you feel like you lost your connection with your father at that time was he still there for you in some way no he was it you know it’s this weird thing where he left the family and was you know like living apart from like not living at our house but uh and I would still see him but uh because of like mental health and other things it was like it was like he was gone and uh and I didn’t feel the connection anymore and that connection was mainly musical not only musical but it was it was like I connect with my father through art like music and films and literature and and about philosophy and understanding the world and that’s like the primary way that we communicate I’m setting up the question do you think that that lack you tried to replace that lack with reaching out to other people yeah and I think it became uh maybe like extreme so like songs became uh way more primary than they even had been and I was like making little albums so like I would like uh write all the time and then I would have 10 songs and then I would like make a little cover and I’d be like this is my album and uh and then try to get people to listen to them and then I would like to listen to them and you know was it kind of like role playing as well then yes yeah yeah like I’m the artist now and I you know I make albums and uh you know I mean that’s like and I’m you know special and so you know and I’ll have to be special yeah yeah and uh but but even through all this like uh I was fundamentally very anxious and anxious in social interaction and I was not like uh it wasn’t like I was performing my songs all the time like I would only I would maybe play a song in my house for like two people but uh mostly I was making these little recordings and then sharing them and not being like a major center of attention I was not like I did not perform a song in front of a group of people until near the end of high school did the performing that you did do did that allow you to engage in a different modality or was it kind of the same for you the performing I did do was like it seemed almost like the closest we we were getting you know like I might even uh write a song for a friend basically like hey you’re going through a situation that you told me about I have written a song trying to like uh encapsulate that and like commiserate with you like I’m you in the song in a way and then I would like share that with them and then you know that seemed like uh the closest to this like real connection did you have success doing that like I think to a degree yeah like uh there were some the really strong friendships there would be these these songs that kind of connected them um I remember like I even had this friend where I wrote a song about how I loved his girlfriend and she should dump him and date me and then I like share this song with everyone right and then uh they eventually break up and me and him become like best like very close friends and it’s like through this the you know the uh through the kind of drama of that and the humor in a way of that then we that becomes a bond have you ever like revisited those things like in reflection with them not much no not too much but occasionally um it’s come up years later with some of the people like uh they still remembered a song I wrote for them and it and it like uh seemed like there was still a connection with me uh even after like years apart because of that you know like that they felt seen by that uh song yeah so where are we at like late late high schools yeah it’s like uh then like like said at the end of high school I performed for the first couple times and then um there’s kind of this transition and and it was kind of odd because like my my dad and my mom had gotten divorced and then they remarried uh when I was a senior in high school and then um um they were back together and I stayed at the house like I went to a community college for two years and I lived at the house and but there’s still like mental illness and stuff going on so it was like very uh it never really returned to to the way it had at least seemed before and um and then I like sort of quadrupled down on the songs so um well another thing that happened was I I did like uh find a partner so like uh my girlfriend at the time is my now wife and in a sense our and our connection was about music and art and it’s like a huge part of our connection and like once that was sort of achieved this like strong connection then songs changed and it was like everything I ever wrote is crap and it all went in the garbage and then it was like I need to figure out how to um create uh songs like the songs that most inspire me it can’t just be like a diary it can’t be my pubescent uh you know fantasies or whatever I need to like uh I need to like attempt to rise to this higher level so it was like we transitioned from life being about trying to find any connection and then we found a profound connection and then the art was still there and then it was like uh there’s something deeper that we’re we’re gotta go for now and then I kind of became obsessed with writing the best songs that I could like uh it became it was no longer like oh I made 10 songs this is my little album and that kind of like playing pretend aspect it was like um now I’m much more discerning and like this isn’t good enough and like songs had to be done in a way good enough and like songs had to be developed and um worked on so is there is there a sense where you’re like um that transition right how did that manifest was it like uh I’m I’m looking for something and I’ve achieved it or uh I realized the dance that I’ve been dancing is only part of the whole story or is is is did she lift you out of that like like how did that go yeah it seemed like this the just like human connection aspect so like I feel like at first my main relationship with art was taking these things to school and like showing them to people and it was all an attempt to connect to form like relationships and then when I found that like the sort of a deep love and connection with another person and deep understanding they actually went beyond just the arts then um it seemed kind of like that’s done like I don’t have like music can’t be for that anymore because I don’t need that anymore kind of thing and so then it became like uh this aspirational thing now it was like um you know I was inspired by people like uh you know we did that song um something vague on line by line I was inspired by people like Connor Oberst who I could see myself in and I was like maybe I could actually like be a singer and I think before then I always thought it was kind of like playing pretend it was just this way to connect to kids at school like I’m a fake author because I wrote this little thing I’m a fake musician because I made this little album but then I saw like oh you know maybe I could like become songs like go into the world of songs that I had like uh grown up with so it became this like aspirational thing of like you know uh it was like people like Bob Dylan or the Beatles were like sacred and it was like what if I could like become you know a god nice so I feel like this this is associated with like an emotional shift right so I get the sense that that you’re acting from a place of insecurity and that somehow could fulfill and that that allowed you to shift your gaze upon something that is true that is in independent of of your need to get fulfillment in the moment um so there’s there’s a stability from which you could relate yeah I think that it’s like it might be more like a splintering off so this thing was all about connection and then it splintered and there was a sense that there’s some deeper thing there some deeper more sacred thing but then there was also a lingering um disconnection a lingering longing for connection it’s like I have love in my life but there’s a sense in which I’m not good enough so this insecurity is is still there and and maybe even deeper and then it’s like well I’d have to really get somewhere with the songs in order to like make up for them good enough for what I mean yeah it feels like uh it feels like it goes all the way down like good enough for existence so in some sense you you you got the feeling that that you’re called to do something and that you have to live up to it yes and it was like the harder I pursued it and this went over the Latin the next several years and that thing I said where like I threw out all my old songs and then like we have to get better I would do that like another one or two times like we’re past that now and like now we have to develop like now we have to develop further do you have names for these spaces like like is there like a progression that that you you made there’s there were definitely like uh three stages of like that early kind of uh teenage angst thing and then this like playing at uh trying to to copy uh other people and stuff and then there was kind of this mature phase of finding something like a voice in the like writing sense um but even that eventually like it like crushed to a halt because it was like I think psychologically it was like um I’m no good I can never be like I can never embody what it is I’m looking for for songs that’s like something that the Bob Dylan can do but like I can’t do that because I’m kind of an imposter and then there was this idea that like if the material if my songs are good enough it will make up my music and then I would develop for this uh this lack and that led to a kind of uh intense perfectionism so like uh eventually um uh my now wife was like performing songs with me uh after college in our local area I connected with musicians for the first time and then we like went on a tour and we like opened for this musician and we were playing shows and then it was like okay I’m gonna make an album of like my best songs and that was nine years ago and I never could complete the album it was like the harder I would work on the songs I’m like okay now they’re ready to be recorded and then I was like okay I have to learn everything about recording because I have to be you know it has to be the best possible thing so that it’ll be like I’ll complete this like opus and then it’ll be like okay like I have achieved the the thing and that became like uh paralyzing so it was like I had raised this thing uh up to like uh the top of the pyramid like this is where we’re going what is the thing because because you you’re using metrics right to to judge yourself so what is what is it you’re judging yourself I mean it’s like uh it’s like being um this I mean in a way it’s like being uh like Conor Oberst or being Bob Dylan it’s like this idea that I’ll like be this professional known songwriter or something or artist and like then you know I’ll like be good enough or count as a person and but how are you going to see that in your song right because because like you’re talking about not willing to add your songs and finish it right so I’m looking for like okay you you’re with that song and you just played it so like how do you make the decision whether that’s good enough or not like like yeah I think I think I might have been even like going by almost like a feeling and it was like it’s like I’ve raised some ideal it’s like I formed like an ideal self or something and that I like aspire to become and ultimately it becomes like a a judge and then like by that by how much I’m failing to live up to it I’m like uh it’s like crushing me it’s like I’m even less I feel like perpetually less the like harder I go after it and then ultimately I can’t even work on uh like recording those songs it’s like to try to like move a little fader in some software is so painful that uh I can’t do that and it was really like a brick wall and it was at that time that uh some different ideas came into my life so like I had studied philosophy um in college and I was sort of struggling in uh to make sense of the world and then this was happening uh in my sort of personal uh artistic life whatever and brick wall and then I started looking for other answers somewhere else and that led to uh initially like some buddhism some eastern thought meditation and like therapy and and uh these things and then uh and like learning about coxsai and all kinds of stuff and then my then what I did like eventually my mind settled around this idea of this more embodied thing of like the anxiety is crushing now and I started to think of like my desire to become this thing I started to see that as like evil as a as a desire to um as something about ego and control and um that led to like a lot of things like I was like I was like I was like I was like trying to experiment with some other thing and I actually searched back in my mind uh all the music I’d ever done and I tried to find like was there anything I could find that didn’t seem like just ego that didn’t seem like trying to prove myself trying to control and the only thing I could come up with was these songs I had occasionally written like for a friend to like show them that I I tried to understand where they were like how they felt and it seemed like there’s something loving about this that didn’t disgust me and that led to this idea of um going into like a room with a little like tape recorder and I’m gonna like make up songs by myself and I’m gonna do it like a practice I’m going to be going to be trying to express that kind of love for myself and look at my own experience and um and I was also kind of backing this up with like some ideas about how art might work and like you know if I’m trying to connect to wisdom through the song if I’m trying to connect to reality maybe that will uh lead to something deeper like it’ll lead to the types of songs that I most that mattered most to me is that your analysis of these songs songs that matter most to you that they get closer to reality yeah yeah I had like settled on that as an idea that it was like that that was something that I had always been looking for from the from all art that like once I had words for it it felt very right and it didn’t feel gross it didn’t feel like now that like that’s evil you know and so uh I like made this little uh album of these improvised songs that were very uh where I was much more embodied as I was singing them and they were in a sense like more emotional and and like true to my own experience and then I just kind of guarded this little thing I’d made uh for some time and then I showed it to some to uh my friend uh my fellow musician and my wife and and and they were like you know this is cool how big a deal was that to to make that stop it was pretty it was pretty big because I think months had passed I think it was like six months later or more that I showed it to anyone so how did you decide I decided because I like first I just made it and then I went back and I like you know you had to like mix it or whatever like I had to I made like little mp3s of it and then and I would listen to it and and months later and when I listened to it months later I uh it had this like profound effect on me because I felt like I was hearing I think I felt something like what my friends felt uh when when I tried to capture their experience and show it to them I felt like I had done that for myself and I and it was like I loved listening to it and it was like it was kind of like I had almost tried to embody a child in making it so it was like as rough as anything that you could ever record it was almost like an rebellion against perfectionism it was like this is gonna suck and that’s part of like we just have to like accept that and so uh when I heard that I felt this uh real strong connection and I think it was only because I felt that that I was like maybe I could show this to somebody and and maybe in a way that was almost a test like am I crazy am I crazy so so it’s interesting to me because the half a year distance right like you’re no longer the same person right so you’re talking to yourself from from a real distance I can imagine that that if you’re genuinely trying to project that love that that in some sense it’s coming from on order like it’s it’s not coming from you although you made it yeah definitely and uh and I think it was uh it became reciprocal too because I hear the person singing to me and I hear that they’re being vulnerable and like that they’re uh like really going for it and they’re like showing you know revealing themselves and then I care about that person and I want to you know like uh as if it was another there’s this like distance and I found myself yeah yeah so how was it received by by the others by the others well um like uh so my wife was very supportive and thought it was cool and was like you know you should share this with people but I think in a sense your connection to like your significant other can be so close that you almost expect that it’s almost like it’d be a little bit against the rules in a way if it was sort of like this sucks and you know uh you should feel bad about it um I didn’t expect that remember the therapy you went yeah exactly so uh but when I showed it to my friend uh who I really look up to uh he’s a great artist himself I showed it to him and he was like you should release this and he was like uh he also gave me a wonderful idea I thought which is he said what if you used a picture of yourself as a child for the cover like take an old picture of yourself as a child what might be good for the cover and I thought that that was uh uh it was like that thing where I heard that and I thought that’s like perfect and it felt like there was something important about that and then um then I started making more of them and then I started slamming those covers on them uh with these pictures of myself as a child my dad had actually just given me all these pictures like our family pictures he had scanned and then I was like taking uh you know like a pre-puberty seemed like kind of a little bit of a rule to the pictures we were taking pre-pubescent pictures and that’s the cover as if like as almost as if this child made this well it’s definitely made for the child in some sense well it’s definitely made for the child in some sense yeah yeah so so you’re talking about embodied right so I want to highlight the distinction between the melodic aspect and the lyrical aspect so how did that dynamic work out in those songs right so you know I like I made up these kind of implicit rules to the song so like I was initially using a tape recorder and hit and record and then I’m gonna make up the song in real time so uh I’m gonna play music and sing uh and this is like the you know like that’s the song there’s not like multiple takes or I’m writing anything ahead of time and then when I messed up or kind of like got scared or I couldn’t go any further I would stop and then I would just punch you can like you know just like start recording again right where I messed up and um this led to like a change because before then it was like I have to compose songs that are so great and that tended to mean lyrically but like the music was there to support lyrics um but now it’s like you can’t be like super articulate you can’t like do deep imagery and stuff when it’s off the top of your head because it’s like there’s enough time you just need to be more direct so um then I discovered all sorts of shit about songs that had that I I felt I felt I discovered all this stuff about songs that had eluded me so like that I would almost always start with a little bit of a some kind of musical realm you know some like chords or some notes or whatever and I would kind of figure that out before I’d hit record like just a rough direction the song was going to be and I noticed how the chords I would pick the music that I would play would have to feel right in my body like I already feel like this sounds and then the words would come very naturally um as trying to put words to the feeling to the sound and it felt you know if like I had aspired to song as something sacred you know this felt like almost like like more like becoming a monk to song because we’re doing a practice where we’re like uh going into song in this uh deeper embodied way yeah it sounds like like the song was no longer sacred but the sacred was coming through the song yeah yeah yes yes like the song had been realized to be an idol or at least your relationship to it yeah and now it was like you know like we’re trying to connect to uh you know reality itself here so I was also getting the association right where where you said oh I realized a bunch of things about songs I was imagining this idea like trying to figure out the deepest of the deepest and then you don’t see the shallow pool right and and there’s also a lot of meaning in the shallowness did you just completely oblivious to it is that a good uh yeah yeah I think so for sure even like the simplest things seemed like really uh amazing to me when I was noticing them from this place so like uh I noticed that like I started repeating lines all the time because when you’re making it up off the top of your head it makes sense to repeat to give yourself time and it’s not just giving yourself time it’s like I’m gonna you know I’m not sure what comes next I’m still in that feeling and then you repeat it and you might repeat it and then eventually you kind of get somewhere to transcend it or something and then you get that next line and then I started to be like oh isn’t that kind of how blues songs work like you say it twice and then uh and I realized repetition in songs probably is makes sense for that reason that’s where it might maybe that’s where it comes from and just like little things like that are like you know you have an instrumental break in the song because you don’t know what to say next and you’re not sure how the song makes sense and you need that time to think about it and then it’s like is that why we have instrumental breaks uh because it seems really natural to have them and this weird thing like the songs kind of the structure of the songs becomes very like natural and and so in a sense those are surface level things that I hadn’t even noticed before so I had this experience that I was walking and this is where I was getting out of my depression and starting to get get good days so I ended up like rhyming for for 20 minutes straight and I was I was just like going going going but but I see this this rhyme or or this repeating right all of all of these things it’s like a scaffolding right it creates a container where we can express within and if we don’t have that structure we we we drift away right we need to in some sense um relieve ourselves of some responsibility but that allows us to take responsibility in a different way that that’s the way I see it yeah that really resonates with me and like uh the deeper I went with this and then I was also like sort of attempting uh kind of dialogos uh my wife and I talk about art and like how does this work you know uh and I would do that in my in my own head as well and then it was like I started to think of all of art that way as as the scaffold these structures that that hold the you know the almost like it’s a technology and these are like the little pieces of the technology that ultimately allows us to to connect to something you know real and it started to blend like art which had had this you know egoic uh perhaps evil nature to it with uh this philosophy and uh the under trying to understand and those were like two separate parts of my life and then they became almost the same thing at least in that for me personally at least in the practice of them okay can you expand a bit on what you mean by same like uh I came to understand art and songs as being like as being philosophy in a way like a way of doing philosophy and I started to to at least perceive that there was like a structure in narrative art at least um which I would include songs where like something’s transcended it’s like we go beyond it’s almost like almost like I would often see a kind of dichotomy or these two opposing things that the song or the the film or something sets up and they’re opposing and then ultimately they become uh they’re transcended that that like uh frame is transcended and I started to think about this when I was doing the songs like I would start with anything that bothered me anything that I felt strongly about something that felt unresolved would always be the focus of the song and then I would basically keep singing it until it seemed resolved or until it or there was some kind of acceptance of it not being resolved or whatever you know something would have to change and then I’d be like that’s done that’s what like makes a song finished and then we like move on to the next one so so that that sounds like the integration of of your ego but like a better word I would use is your shadow actually right like that sounds like shadow integration and in a sense but I still don’t really fully understand what you mean with connecting the ego to to to transcend them um yeah so it’s something about like um um eventually I guess I came upon a definition of philosophy like and uh the definition I heard was that uh philosophy was was like uh was about ever improving the question of being was the role of philosophy just to improve the question of being you know with the idea that I guess uh being is that you know it’s the answer to the question is being you know is living or being but uh philosophy is about improving the question of being and then uh I saw a connection with art uh where that’s what art did as I understood it it was like a way of improving uh the question of being and I started to see like uh the kind of things that uh like the arc of like a platonic dialogue or the story of christ or you know these things that seem like sacred stories or or uh things that seem to improve the question of being I started to see those as art or as having something in common with art and the structure of art like almost like a film or the best song or the best film you know you know like the best Bob Dylan song he’s a little bit being like Socrates to me and he’s like taking me on this little path and he’s like drawing me in with maybe some humor and maybe the melody and and and the beauty of the sound of the song or whatever but then ultimately like he’s taking me somewhere that I didn’t expect to go it’s outside my comfort zone and then when I was doing these songs it’s like I’m trying to to some degree do this process on my own feelings and my own uh uh problems and then I’m like feeling like the song itself helps do that so then it’s like all of a sudden this problem where like you can’t be Bob Dylan you can’t be the Beatles because they’re like these special geniuses or something that like went away and it was like the song does the work and the person’s just like uh is the ego doesn’t even in a sense have a place or or it’s fully integrated into the thing it’s like you’re part of the conduit for the uh truth or you know yeah okay so that that kind of was the image that I have but but yeah I don’t I don’t see that so much as combining it’s it’s more so putting the ego in the proper place right where it is it is yeah it is the thing that allows being to maintain be maintain being right that that’s kind of what the ego does right it’s like oh I am because because I see being as as bigger outside of you that you participate in right and then the ego is like yeah but I still also need some things right like yeah yeah yeah right so so do I hear there that like is the difference that the difference between sort of like uh my ego wants to dominate being right which is a mistake you’re you’re gonna you know you’re gonna get your ass handed to you yeah you’re part of it you’re in control yeah but then to integrate in that sense is like to get with the program of like uh you know I’m not here to dominate being I’m here to like uh fit with being connect with you know be so so yeah so you you use the words connect to reality and now you’re using the words connect to being so is there a distinction that you’re making between being and reality yeah I think I think being is um being to me is like the participation with reality and you know you’re gonna be regardless of what you do but um this sense of like connecting to being is like connecting with you know participating with actual reality not you know your own uh foolish notion uh foolish notion and your image of reality instead your idol right right so uh yeah are we are we at the present time a little bit pretty much so so yeah three words that that you used and I want to leave them in learn grow and understand I haven’t heard you repeat them so well so I created you know I did this process of creating the songs and I would always do it where uh it would create like an album and just you know something like 30 minutes long or longer and then I would like do another one and they originally they were spaced out so I did like seven or eight over years and then I started to feel um there was like a kind of confidence like that feeling of like I’m not good enough started to to change because it’s like not relevant anymore because no one’s good enough in a sense but anyone’s good enough in another sense you know where it’s a conduit to the thing so it’s a little bit more humble in that way and then um but then I started to feel like I wanted to put them out there like to make them available so like I’d been doing them privately and then this became like a uh the a kind of uh conflict so I started putting them on the internet and I felt like I’m doing it for that child in a way like like like part of caring for this thing is to make it public like as if there’s nothing to hide and there’s no shame of this and then um I started trying to do them like every month you know so then like for an entire year I would do one a month and then the pandemic happened so then I just kept doing them and then it was like I did like 25 of them and it was like hundreds of these experiments of these songs and then I was uh I kind of circled around so like well I I’ve written these other songs the songs that I was originally going to record I’ve I’ve written many more songs since then that are more written you know not improvised and it was like uh it’s like I was practicing putting stuff out there and letting it be public and letting it be seen and then I wanted to return to this other material I had written and and like record it and try to well basically I came up against this problem of the public and private and what is the difference between doing something for myself and and doing something that’s for others or that you know and like what is the role of the artist and is it just ego and and that is and that is still a bit unresolved and so this is where I am now it’s this uh you know I would like to to do things in a more professional way and like uh return to that same dream of like I’ll be the songwriter whatever but uh have it be something true and real and and meaningful instead of uh evil and uh something I can’t do that I’m fundamentally going to be an imposter yeah so I before you mentioned ego like it was already flashing in my head right like oh there’s the ego sneaking back in right like if you’re having public private issues then and and yeah well like like actually we’ve been talking about this about what do you share what don’t you share right and and it has to do with audience right and and the internet is like a really strange place because now your audience is everybody and then it’s like well do you is it good to show things to everybody because like it might be good to show things to some people but maybe other people have the inverse reaction right it’s actually damaging well it might be somewhat healing for others um so yeah there there is a real big problem and I’m I was also thinking right like what’s the audience that you’re writing for and then you mentioned your younger self as as an audience right so that’s kind of like yeah but like like who can resonate with your younger self right like we we do line by line and and there’s this element while we project on the songs right but the projection yeah like I I don’t I don’t like the projection in the sense that at a certain point the song doesn’t really matter anymore right like you’re just going to find what you want to find um so how can the song be the thing that provides something right like that provides the out out of the projection right like like there’s a lifting up element so the question I want to ask you is like have you ever considered writing for an audience like a specific audience and and how would that work for you yeah I find that I find that very difficult to think about like I’m not sure like I like there’s a sense in which if I think about that I feel like there’s sort of no ground underneath me you know and and then all I can think to like put the ground back is to like is to think about like well like uh yeah like might be just something like well okay I mean if I’m the audience you know or if that child me is the audience you know or if there’s something inside me or or if it’s like me and my my wife and some like small group of people uh that are like the sense making part of like my sense making apparatus like if they’re the audience you know then maybe I can understand that I don’t know I also have feel like it might be that art works by almost like assuming an audience of some kind and that assumption is like it can be kind of like a like I guess the idea might be that it can be kind of like a like I guess the idea might be that I have like an implicit understanding of Ezra and then I have an implicit understanding of everybody else and in a sense uh that’s like the audience is like well it’s the others so I will in some sense have to like I’ll have to look at uh so I’ll have to like look at the work or something or and be like what’s an Ezra thing and what’s a common thing and what’s a common thing like what is only Ezra and what is like everybody universal and then if it’s if you feel like it’s maybe only Ezra you have to explain it a little bit or you have to or it’s or that’s the challenge the challenge to the other is to try to understand the Ezra stuff and and maybe there’s maybe there’s a way there because my favorite you know the things I connect most to it doesn’t seem like they’re writing for me exactly it seems like they’re writing you know that they’re trying it seems like they’re doing the same kind of thing I was I was doing with the improv and it’s just like uh it is resonating with me like you know like there’s a faith in a way of like I’m going to put it out there and like I stand behind it like as far as I can tell this is right so like what do you think and then maybe that’s actually uh worthwhile you know like like like the difference between trying to dominate reality with the ego would be like this is right and like you will agree with the song you know like get in like bow down to the song but perhaps a healthier way is like I think this is right and then people respond and then you can learn from this response even if it’s not what you expect you know and so perhaps that’s been the barrier is uh is a faith in others you know like uh like uh that I lack like you know like I like maybe I have a fear of the other that leads me to like I don’t know how I feel about putting this out there so a couple things come to mind there’s there’s a lot of talk about about the seductive nature of beauty right um um what I what I feel is missing when I hear you talk is is a telos right a purpose um so because because in in some sounds right like yes you have an implicit audience right but when when you orient yourself in a way right you’re going to appeal to a certain set of people right who who are engaged in in in relation to that orientation right and and so and and that also gives again the set of constraints right this this container in in which you can operate and in some sense it it it allows you to to gain that extra freedom again right for the movement because because you you know locked in on a direction and and then there’s also an implicit understanding of your your audience right because because effectively the orientation that you’re inhabiting organizes the world in a certain way and I think I think that’s the way you can also get into the faith right because like oh now there’s a sameness right so then you you just have to pick the direction that fits you and also fits other people yeah I think that uh I think like when I I think I come off against the the trade-off right so like like as an example you know you’re like all right we’re gonna make this album uh where we you know try to improve the you know question of being and and all the stuff but you know it’s death metal it’s gonna be a death metal album and all the stuff but you know it’s death metal it’s gonna be a death metal album then like you know you are absolutely uh potentially connecting to this death metal community and they will be you know receptive and maybe very glad that you have decided to you know put this in death metal terms right but insofar as it’s death metal it’s not all the other genres you know of music or whatever and then um and so then it could seem like uh in a way arbitrary like you could imagine standing somewhere arbitrarily and being like oh well should we be death metal or you know or a folk or you know and no but I’m saying like uh you can imagine saying a place where it’s arbitrary and then I find it confusing like well then how would I make the decision like how would I come to say it’s going to be do make the decision and then things happen right and then if you don’t like it you make a different one yeah and I mean like if it’s my point is if it’s completely arbitrary I wouldn’t know how to make the decision except arbitrarily and I have this sense that that there’s that there’s another you know maybe it’s like another game that leads to the uh not like leads to that decision you know or something so it’s like you’re talking about a leap of faith to me like uh like I guess my point I guess it’s like the song is the technology on one level and then like the band or like the artist or the like style is almost like another level game then it’s like uh that game works similarly to the song because it’s like the song won’t work for everyone and the song will have an implicit kind of package you know and then the the artist or like the band can be a similar thing you know like and I think in my mind all these things can and maybe I’m like I’m very compelled to like make them all connect with each other it’s like the the way it’s presented and the style should like also try to improve the question of being and then it’s kind of led me to this place of like well I don’t want to just be like in public I don’t want to just be the artist who’s like you know here’s the artist here’s the art that I have created for you I have this uh I’m compelled to like I’m gonna have to be like the artist philosopher the artist sense maker I’m gonna have to like say here’s the art and then like here’s a bunch of YouTube videos talking about art and how it works and how you can use art and then you can take what I’m saying about how to use the art and you can use it on my art or you can go use it on some other art because you can see that my art isn’t for you you know have you have you ever watched walk of the earth uh what’s that that’s a band but that’s a no okay no because because they’re really interesting right because they they’re trying to to use objects as instruments instruments in in their stuff and in their stuff and and so they’re going through all sorts of music styles and and with all sorts of instruments and so in some sense they adopted this non uh style conform conforming attitude um so so there there is a path there that’s that’s what I’m trying to say yeah um um but yeah yeah there there is there’s the relationship between between these layers right like like like the band as an image but then also the band as communion I’m sorry I lost you for a sec so there’s the band as an image and then there’s a band as a communion and and then there’s the music right and then and then there’s the song or with the lyrics right there’s all of these layers and either they can resonate or or they can kind of point a little bit different and and I I don’t I don’t think there’s necessarily rules around that I think I think there’s a lot of room to be playful with that um so yeah like let’s uh start pointing towards the future right so so let’s step into the world of ideals right so let’s say you’ve made it five years from now um what type of music are you making um yeah so like um for me the style um will have to be like it like connects with my personal history so it’s like in a way all I can do is some version of uh like what I did with improv all I can do is some version of like uh what I first came to music as being so like yeah my dad raised me with like the Beatles Bob Dylan and stuff and then I find like Conor Obers is like a modern version of that we’re dealing in ideals though right like so you don’t have to have that constraint yeah I just I know that it’s this uh singer-songwriter-y thing and it’s about songs uh and you know words and uh all that stuff I’ve learned and then um it’s like um um yeah and I see that um all these things that uh you know like philosophy and the trying to understand art and and and the strong feelings about the kind of ego and and the like charlatan artist who like pulls you in with beauty but doesn’t give you anything uh you know that that can actually become part of the the music like there’s ways to address that and for that to come and be part of of the art in a way so like you know just like there’s ways to uh you know like if I try to perfect how I sing and it’s all perfect in like a pop song then maybe I I can’t as effectively point to that thing but I can like have it be kind of messed up and then really beautiful and then kind of like a child made it and then beautiful again and then it’s like see what we’re trying to tell you see what’s happening that’s kind of like where I’m being pulled so what I’m hearing is you want to stay true to your roots um I’m I’m also hearing that there’s there’s a sort of a evangelical message right like oh like there’s there’s the good way of doing music and I am somehow revealing that to you through my music that that’s where the aspiration goes and so you’re you’re looking for an interplay between between these realms these layers and I perceive that you’re trying to get to use that that dynamic that interaction to convey the information is that correct yeah yeah and do you have a sense that how that’s going to work or is that just like a fantasy level now um like I have a rough yeah I have an idea of what that means to me like how how that um could maybe work and then um that’s kind of where I feel and like I’ve recently I’ve kind of faced that like I might need help so I might need other people to help realize this vision that I can see now and yeah and like I think I had a sense as a younger person that like you have to go completely on your own and like you know I’m gonna have to learn absolutely everything and do it absolutely all myself and now there’s like a step where I’m trying to open up to that more and not just like having other people play music instruments and stuff but like opening up to like the people that need to help make the music and mix the music and like that also need to understand this idea and in order to help realize it better and stuff yeah I’m gonna advise you to watch the work of the earth because because I think they’ve been playing with with with this stuff that you’re you’re interested in and I when when you’re talking about this interdynamic level right like now yeah the dialogo comes comes in there right like there’s there’s there’s an element where to have attunement on on these different levels right like you you need really insightful people right that that are attuned in the same way so that that’s not an easy an easy task to achieve and then well okay I’m gonna I’m gonna do the telus thing again right it’s like like how do you how do you get on the same page right like how do you all as as a group orient in the same way right like now you you have to see the same thing right like you have to find a way to to realize the same relevance and attune to it and also in some sense have the the same insights right of of what is possible as as well and yeah like if you if you can manage that I I think that would be yeah really beautiful right especially if you start including this this philosophy philosophical embodied takes takes in there so yeah like if if you manage that I I’d be really excited to to see that work and I’ll give you my support um so yes is in five years is there maybe something that’s been pulling at you that you haven’t really engaged with yet that you want to start exploring um yeah like I feel like if this you know if I took this trajectory and it let you know in five years I was connected to any kind of audience and I was able to do that and I was able to do that and I was able to connect to any kind of audience then that excites me to think about like what I would think then because it’s like in a way that’s been hanging over my head for a very long time so to have that not unlike my initial connection to my wife that that kind of ended though like using this as a search for literally like people in your life or something um this would be like like that was like to find a partner to find like uh love this would be like finding community and if some level of community was then you know then it was like now it doesn’t have to be about that either like that can you know is is accomplished and so then it could be like well how far can we go you know where else can we go with it and then um I’m also usually when I think about the future I think about um the possibility of taking on a role that’s more like a mentor to be able to perhaps help other people who might struggle with some of those things that I’d struggle with around their the art and how to do it and why to do it and then like help be an example of that and help literally like help other people you know if I ever had any kind of ability to do that that’s very exciting to think of um being able to be that person that I didn’t have in a sense did not find who could be like you know here’s a way to do it it’s not just about you know uh instagram likes and stuff followers or something you know like here’s a way to do it for you know for a higher purpose yeah I’m going a little bit back to to somewhat my first question about children’s songs since in some sense you’re you’re playing for your child self so maybe you you do have an audience category uh right and and I when I think about the children’s songs that I engage with right like they’re they’re kind of like in in a sort of an opera style right where where there’s a story uh connected to it um and and it’s it’s really embodied right like like the the ways of engagement is through excitement in some sense right like oh this is scary or this is exciting or this is sad right it’s it’s really expressive so does that appeal to you or is that just me fantasizing I like I think that the way that I because in a sense like there was a sense in which I didn’t have like I felt like I didn’t have that much of a childhood I had older brothers so that was like I was always trying to be at their level and then they’d be taking in things you know maybe like watching a film or something with extremely adult film and they’re like 15 or 16 and I’m nine but it’s like I want to watch the film and I want to get the film you know and then in a way it was like trying to erase the kind of childhood and then I think there’s like a there was like a reconnecting with the child and then to me what that means in art is like it’s something about the way in which it’s done sometimes so it’s like sometimes there’s music aimed at like you know specifically aimed at children and then there’s like music that’s sort of made in a childlike way and it can be it can like work on multiple levels and I’m really drawn to that and so it’s like I see that young people like me might connect with that even though in a sense it might have philosophical stuff that’s like over their head but it’s like calling them to this thing but it has in it’ll feel like childhood the way that sometimes things that are a little punk or like a little rough around the edges have like a sense of play that really appeals to me yeah I actually grew up in a tradition that was actually doing that so that was on dutch tv it was a whole scene of childlike programs that were like really adult in some way right but yeah it just flew over the top and disney also kind of tries to do that in some sense yeah yeah yeah I think I think if if you really master that that that’s powerful stuff powerful stuff yeah so do you do you want to get something else off your chest do you feel like you missed out on something or you want to expand on um only that maybe only that um my sense is that this uh opening up to the community aspect this this like this step uh seems so huge to me and you know um in our life in the last line by line we did on that song something big um you know that we were doing this song by this guy who’s like 19 and I uh uh I felt almost overwhelmed afterward because it was like in a sense I’m still living this song that this guy is like living because it’s this I saw that as the transition he might have been talking about like fame but I’m really just thinking about like the that anyone is listening at all you know like that there’s any audience seems like uh it still seems like that’ll be the biggest uh hurdle because it’s like opening up to yourself okay it’s kind of like love for yourself a love for your most intimate relationships okay but then what about like this trust or faith in the outside world that but you know I think in my kind of like traumatized brain or like that seems like the biggest hurdle you know yeah there there is a sense right like that when you expand you’re going to things that are further out right so the things that are further out are are less like you and there’s there’s gonna be conflict yeah that’s that’s unavoidable right but yeah you can you can you can embrace it right you you said learn grow understand that’s that’s the opportunities and think of all the good that’s in there so yeah um songs thank you Azra for your participation in the unfolding the soul uh we’ll have links to your social medias and a playlist of your appearances on line by line um um yeah we’re you want to invite everybody to give their lesson of uh of this conversation so that has where I can get some feedback I got some feedback um maybe maybe Azra you want to close out with what was the lesson for you after talking about all of this well uh first off uh thank you so much uh for having me and for uh for leading me through this process I found it very very helpful and I think in a way I might have already um um said part of it which is that you know I’m I’m more aware that what the real hurdle for me is what what uh what I’m what I’m opening up to and why you know uh but even more uh I’m I feel like I’ve seen how I you know I’ve seen something of the beauty of that that is actually calling me to forward toward it well that that is beautiful so thank you thank you for appearing everybody thanks for watching and see y’all next time on unfolding the soul