https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=3TZdH7u7ws4
Good evening. Happy first Sunday of Lent everybody. It is good to be here. I hope you all got a good cross on your forehead for Ash Wednesday. It’s extremely disappointing when the priest doesn’t do a good job. And do be patient with your friendly priest because actually getting a good cross on somebody’s forehead is difficult. So be patient. Chad says howdy and I say howdy back Chad. I always got that handsome Squidward profile picture going on there. Alrighty. So it’s been an exciting day here at Holy Cross Church. Yeah, a lot going on. We are adding a little bit of extra confession time for Lent because that’s what winners do. So a little extra confession time. And today in the Catholic Church we had the rite of election for all of those who will be coming into the Catholic Church at Easter or shortly thereafter. We have the option of attending a special liturgy with the bishop at the Cathedral. So that meant that we had the rite of sending as well at the r11 a.m. mass where we called forward everybody who was pursuing membership with the Catholic Church. Gave them a little blessing and sent them off to the Cathedral for a 4 p.m. ceremony. And so you know I bet you that’s a lot first time a lot of my folks had never been to the Cathedral. I’ve seen the bishop before. You know he’s got the hat. I tell you no he’s in charge here. He’s got the big bishop’s hat and he’s got the big bishop’s stick. In addition to all of that we had first confessions for our second graders today. And not to toot my own horn but I had easily the longest line today. Apparently second graders are telling stories about me having the gentle touch in the in the confessional. My Lutheran pastor has much winsome stuff to say about Bishop Robert Barron and his homily today. Alrighty glad to hear it. I happen to be a Bishop Barron fan myself so no no objections there. And on top of all of that I also had the 6 p.m. Mass. So it’s been a productive day. Another thing that’s going on at our parish is we’re bringing back parish missions. And usually what a parish mission is is that you bring in a priest or another speaker from somewhere else and and have them give a little miniature retreat. Usually a Sunday afternoon Monday night Tuesday night kind of deal. But we’ve been we haven’t had one since COVID at the very least and it might have even been longer than that. I haven’t been here long enough to know. And yeah we waited a little too long to get a good speaker in the area. So it’s yours truly going to be doing the parish missions at Holy Cross Church here. Which was not what I was expecting. And you know it is nice to bring in somebody else. But I think it’s better to have just me rather than somebody else. And you may want to keep an eye on this channel if listening to me talk is something that interesting to you. And for at least four people right now that is the case. So I’ll probably I’m doing a parish mission at our parish and then at the end of March I’m going down to Wapiton, my old parish. And I’ll be doing a parish mission there. The topic will be unlock your baptism priest, prophet and king. Yeah that’s the idea is that you know the Catholic Church has a pretty profound theology of the sacraments. And the sacraments are a big stinking deal to us basically. And yeah it might not seem to be the case that baptism is that big of a deal. But what happens is that is you know it’s basically we’re planting a seed and under the right conditions that that seed should grow unto eternal life and bring the image of Christ to full fruition in their life. And you may say that I don’t see that happening very often. And my response to that is I agree let’s make it happen. So that’s why I’m kind of focusing all of my parish mission talks on that topic is having helping people to unlock their baptism. The priest, prophet and king business we look at the life of Christ and we look at different offices we would call them in the Old Testament. Office of priests, the office of the prophet, and the office of the king. These three different things and we see all of that fulfilled in its perfection in Jesus. And since we are the body of Christ on earth we are also supposed to embody those three offices of Christ, priest, prophet and king. And we say that those you begin to embody that once you’ve received your baptism obviously to the degree that you’re able to embody anything besides sleeping and pooping. Because you know when you’re a month old you just you can’t do all that much yet. But you know we’ve planted the seed in your soul and when it’s time you can have it grow up. So that’s a parish mission we got coming up. If our right of Christian initiation for adults those are the people coming into the faith. For the Lenten season we are starting to hit the seven sacraments pretty hard. So I’m excited about that to be able to teach that because it’s a topic I understand well it’s a topic I’m passionate about and I think it’s really important. So they’re gonna get fairly decently in-depth treatment on each of the seventh sacraments. So other than that it got almost to about 32 degrees today. So that makes today absolutely splendid weather here in Fargo, North Dakota. Now as much as you may like listening to me rant to myself I’ll do this for a little while more. But with this busy a day I have it would sure help me out to have somebody else hop in the chat and give me something to talk about. So in case you’re wondering what priests do with their free time, on Friday I got together with my priest fraternity group up in Grand Forks. There’s four of us in it, all of us ordained about the same time. And after some catching up and some serious conversation about life in our diocese we had a lunch and then we had a little session of Dungeons and Dragons. So anyway that’s what some priests do on their free time. Oh you’re a pirate captain now. Oh I forgot to change my name. Okay the pirate captain this year. I had a friend who played a D&D game that was called, they were raccoon pirates. So they were stealing trash. That’s what the whole game was about. It was a, I should say a role-playing game not a D&D game. Were they using GURPS? Were they using Pathfinder? No it’s a different game. It’s called Raccoon Pirates. Is it like a card game or a board game? It’s like D&D but it’s not D&D or Pathfinder. It’s its own thing. Interesting. A friend of mine’s having a pretty good time playing Call of Cthulhu right now. I’m not in that group. But he was playing a what should have been more of like a mage build. Like a you know not particularly large or imposing woman. And he kept on playing her like a barbarian. Which isn’t really a good idea to begin with in Call of Cthulhu. And especially not a good idea with if you don’t. Anyway his character ended up dying and I didn’t feel bad for him because he was being ridiculous. This is not a combat game. This is a try to survive kind of game. Oh looks like Chad thinks uh I don’t know. It hasn’t popped up on my stream yet. I can see the comments before they get to my stream. It is a great Metallica song. That was off Ride the Lightning right? That is a great album. Holy mackerel. Yeah. Mark how have you been? Nah hanging in there. I’ve been sick all week. Oh what did you do that for? I don’t know. I was asleep like almost all day today. I got almost nothing done. We got the we got the carport done. So now my car has a home again. Good. Nice. What about you Valerie? How have you been? Doing alright. I had a weird stomach thing yesterday. It was like you know and so I had to cancel some decluttering plans for storage and I’m like ah but otherwise I’m doing alright. Bugging along. You know trying to read through my community books that I’m reading. Nice nice. I had a blizzard this week. That’s what disrupted us. So like everything on Thursday was cancelled except for daily mass. Oh. If the priest lives close to the church the masses will never be cancelled and somebody no matter what the weather somebody will show up. It’s amazing. Wow. And it’s usually like it’s usually like somebody who’s having trouble walking as it is and then they you know they drive to the church at a blizzard and it’s just like well alrighty then. Yeah. Alrighty we’ve got Chad here. How you doing? Hey how’s it going? How’s it going? On my way back home from the detox. It’s a really good meeting tonight. Good. Glad to hear it. Such a relief. God I was I was shocked to hear that they call it Ketubu’s on Red Lightning. Man my presuppositions about people is so guilty. This is what you gotta know about priests is that before we were priests we were regular dudes. That’s awesome. We don’t cease to be regular dudes once we become priests. Well I got a quick simple question. What’s your favorite Metallica song from the 90s era? From the 90s era? Not the black album. Post-black album. Hmm. Yeah I’m not terribly familiar with that period so what I’m just gonna have to say is Fuel. Oh that’s a good one. It’s got a nice kind of it’s kind of got like a pantera groove to it you know. Yeah. Yeah so anyway yeah that’s uh that’s not a that’s not usually a a well regarded era right there. It isn’t. It’s not. I like Outlaw Torn specifically on the SNM live version. Yeah that was uh interesting the metal bands getting together with the symphony there. For sure. So you were in the Lutheran. Yeah you’re in a Lutheran church. What was your gospel reading today? We had Genesis um uh where she’s uh tempted and then she takes a bite and then Adam blames her and God’s like who told you you’re naked and then he casts out the serpent. So that was the first one then there was a psalm I don’t know which one maybe 23 I don’t know and then there was um uh Matthew and and the temptations Christ’s Temptations. Yeah this is one of those cool things that we could take advantage of now that Catholics and Lutherans aren’t killing each other is that we have the revised common lectionary that a lot of Lutheran churches will use. So you had the same readings today that I did. Nice. Was that right Psalm 23? Uh 51 that’s what 51 yeah yeah have mercy on me God in your kindness and your compassion blot out my offense. Yes it’s a good one we pray that every Friday in our bravery. Oh yes we just need that reminder. Yeah so my my pastor comes from an Anglican background actually so he’s he’s actually an Anglican first and then he went to the Lutheran. So that’s interesting too I don’t know it’s it’s interesting he’s interesting fellow but we talked about words and um uh giving up gossip stuff like this and so that was something that we talked about it relates to light and uh yeah. Speaking of Lutherans we just added another Lutheran to the stream here. Hello Charlie are you uh are you half working on school work and half listening to us or are you taking a little bit of break on this Sabbath? No I’m doing school sorry. Okay all righty I won’t I won’t bother you too much but if I have any specifically Lutheran questions you’re going to be in my time. All right so I really liked what you were talking about about this baptism I don’t know how you framed that but I was thinking about that it kind of relates to a question my wife had or not a question but a comment she made about how grateful she was that we have AA in our lives and that’s kind of like where we come out of and then we go into the church it’s like it’s just so nice like in the AA world where you get to talk with people about practical matters and spiritual practice um like on the ground like all the time any given day I go to a meeting anywhere and and that kind of relates I think to the your idea of of course leaning into your baptism or however you put that and I’ll probably start robotting here but what do you think about that what can we do as Christians let’s just say in the excuse me in the church in the church and in our communities like how well how can we grow it into our what God will have us do more robustly I guess yeah I guess um I’ll just think about uh what my dad is doing right now and what my dad he’s a he’s a Catholic deacon and in Catholic world deacons are are pretty daggone educated and they’re expected to take a bit more of a leadership role that’s how we use our deacons right now um he is running a men’s group at uh his parish and the men’s group is actually nice and structured uh which I’m a big fan of it’s not just uh anybody want to talk about the Bible now um so kind of your first year in this men’s group you kind of start off at the end of August beginning of September and you get formation in I can’t I’m not sure I can remember all but you get formation in and prayer uh several different forms of prayer yeah yeah you get formation in uh praying with scriptures you get uh you do a Marian consecration you study the sacraments and you study the liturgy of the hours uh and so that’s kind of like a nine month uh formation progret process and then they he’s got he’s got other things too they’ve got like first friday devotions that they all do together um and uh at regular meetings something that he’s added this year is it’s called the fisherman right so it’s got all of these all of these fishing terms to it so what’s something he’s added this year is the weigh-in uh so once a week on Saturday mornings but come in and they’ll do a weigh-in uh to see the size of their fish and I like it and uh they’ll just uh see how they’re doing and um he’s actually won a major award uh for his work in the fishermen the Knights of Columbus which is uh international oh cool the international men’s organization uh he won the international program of the year for the faith pillar uh so he went down to Nashville in uh in September and received a major award it’s a major award that’s really cool that’s really cool yeah it was really cool I was really proud of him I wish I could have gone to Nashville too but but I didn’t um and um yeah so what I really like about it is it starts off with the formation it starts off with giving the direction these are the things that we do we pray with scripture we’ve got a million devotion we participate in the sacraments and we do uh liturgy of the hours instead of just throwing people into a void and say connect with each other because that might work for some people but I think for probably a majority of men they’re going to be looking for a little bit of leadership a little bit of direction and a program to run uh so for a man sign me up that that program to run is uh and it doesn’t have to be like an outrageously well organized and deep program but like here’s what we’re doing here now kind of the second so he’s got this group he’s got a solid group of guys they like coming to it they’re benefiting from it they can lean on each other for support they’re coming deeper into their faith the part that he really wants this to be is he’s um he is uh interested in and this is on their coins he gives them all coins right because that’s awesome and it says uh the church militant special operation the fisherman the church militant special operations unit uh nice which is just oh gosh he’s got a genius for marketing there um and uh what he wants us to do is he wants this to be the group of guys who go out and bring people in and I’m sure to some degree that’s working but it’s not like the harvest is abundant but the laborers are few yeah you know like the harvest there should be abundant and if we just follow the lord right we should be tripping over new catholics constantly you know that’s my conviction anyway but well yeah do you have like so this is great so is it being replicated hopefully at some point I don’t know if that’s in the works like are other places doing this not yet I know my dad is interested in moving in that direction he’s no longer working full-time for the government which is great and he’s been able to to make kind of being full-time in ministry work so far and so I know that that is something he wants to do and he’s actually had you know some people reach out to him about getting a fisherman group in their parish he just hadn’t figured out how to do that yet he’s really busy right now but I think that’s going to be a project he’s really going to take on this summer once he’s done with his parish missions and reflections and those sorts of things so but but you know getting something off the ground is hard and it takes work so you just have to show up and do the hard work but yeah yeah so that’s I’d like to see I’d like to see the fisherman spread you know yeah participation so Mark cool yeah just drop some nuts man you to tell him yeah yeah no nobody needs anybody to say it except a bunch of people who don’t know it anymore right that’s that’s been the issue there’s a bunch of people who don’t understand participation and so they’re not doing it because they’re individuals it’s uh it’s interesting I was listening to uh to Ken Ham I’d never heard him before he’s the arcing counter guy right he has he did this talk and I’m listening to the talk and I don’t know how I found it even it just kind of popped up and I was like oh there’s him describing middle out thinking oh there’s him describing propositional knowledge and the need for participation like he’s got the same formula now he’s got a bunch of stuff I don’t like obviously which but young creationism I well look I’m a big fan of fallen earth creationism for example I think and that was one of the things he did in the talk that was actually really good was he said if there’s millions of years you have a problem and it’s like oh that’s interesting right because it changes your thinking and I was like yes there’s a whole thing around changing your thinking and I was going to do this video I haven’t I haven’t done it yet I might do it tomorrow I was going to do this video on like modernity like when you use the term modernity you mess up the way you think about the world like you screwed up time right because the modern is always now and it’s never in the past and it’s never in the future it’s always now and so when you use the term modernity you’re messing up the way you can think about time in the universe right because I mean so that’s that’s actually a problem that the the church had and it’s not like the biggest problem in the world and it wasn’t a devastating problem but in the second Vatican council the last document they published was basically like a letter to the world so it was a pastoral constitution on the church in the modern world and and my my professor that we did a Vatican II class with he pointed out the problem with that right and the problem with that is you know that ends up becoming a constitution for the church in 1965 the world of 1965 right because that was the modern world it was 1965 that’s when they published that document that’s not to say that like the document was was a train wrecker or like necessarily bad but it’s going to be limited to 1965 because that’s who they were talking to right right but it says modern and so it should apply now but but it just straight up does it right right of course not but that’s what happened that’s what I mean by by misapplication and and ham does a good job in this talk of doing the same thing pointing out this your mode of thought changes when you go back too far effectively right because and a lot of I’ve gotten into this with a lot of people I’m like you could you can whine about creation it’s all day long but actually nobody has a better system right because they think oh we’re in a simulation it’s like okay so an intelligent designer intelligently designed a simulation that’s nice that’s a more intelligent design argument than any christians ever made so what did what did ken ham say about the creation of the universe uh I don’t remember him getting into that he just said there’s a problem when you go back because your possibles and right and and like I like I said like everything he said was stuff I’m like yes this is actually really really important okay yeah yeah so so maybe he identifies the problem properly I don’t think you’d really like his solution to that which is basically is basically squeezing the bible into a materialist frame and guess what it just doesn’t work right because it’s like oh the firmament above there at one time it was a dome surrounding the entire you know spherical earth with water on top of it and the flood is when the dome broke and all the water came through it came through yeah no no I’m sure I’m trying to like a solution but I just find it interesting that you know uh mon senior che right and ken ham and peterson and vervecky are all actually on the same track and they don’t really those are four people who should never agree with each other right but they’re all talking about very similar things yeah and they don’t realize it because they’re using different framing and different language at the same time and so it’s very hard to see but once you once what I do is I just reorient everything to somebody’s frame and then I translate the language and I was like oh okay that’s what you’re talking about and this is the same as what this person’s talking about and other people can’t see that because they can’t do either trick much less translation is really hard and if you translate outside of the frame you get bad translations and it’s it’s inevitable but if you can do both if you can modify both then it’s then it’s um uh then it works fine right then it’s then it’s valid again so yeah it was just interesting to hear him talking about this using a completely different language yeah huh well the middle out thinking just fascinated me because he was basically saying when people read the bible you know they they read about jesus and they’re not paying attention to genesis and i was like yeah that’s you know that’s not that’s not just where are you standing like like peugeot says it’s what i say where are you starting because if you’re starting at jesus it’s all love and happiness and whatever right and it’s like no no no no there’s actually really important framing before you get there right because you know god’s kind of a bastard in the beginning again and then it all changes they kill these people do this attack that crush this city yeah okay okay let’s put plagues on egypt really whoa and then all of a sudden it all changes it’s like oh okay new testament different book okay all righty yeah um if you if you take oh here’s a question for you mark do you believe in providence providence rood island i’ve been there god’s god’s ordering of the whole universe to his own ends uh you see once you believe in providence that means that every plague is uh yeah well i mean and if god’s responsibility i mean i don’t know how else it could work if you you know if there’s a creation like i don’t know what other options there would be but so i guess it’s kind of inevitable unless like i think this is why the framing matters like if creation then almost certainly providence like i don’t i don’t even see another option like what what would that look like you know because because as near as i can tell you know nobody nobody abandons their creations right so if we’re co-creators we don’t abandon our creations they don’t always go the way we want but if if we’re within an imperfect system for whatever reason uh or we’re imperfect creatures in a perfect system even then that doesn’t state anything interesting for one layer up okay yeah so i’m just going to push back a little bit on your whole um everything changes once you get past the gospel of matthew thing because uh yeah there’s a line in the gospels um no it was the context of it uh oh my brain it refers to two disasters jesus refers to two disasters in um in first century palestine uh one of them was the tower of siloam collapsing and killing 13 people and the other was pilot mingling the blood of some hebra’s with the blood of the sacrifice and he says were these ones any worse sinners than the others no they were not that’s why all of you need to be prepared i’m mangling that right now i think i’ve got little bits and pieces of of jesus that’s a big difference from god sending plagues and telling moses to go do things and and and sure but once you have this idea of providence right once you’ve got this idea of god ordering everything towards his own ends then like plagues in egypt earthquake in portugal but but well that’s that’s great that’s great with the pre-supposition that that the pharaoh wouldn’t let them go but then why wouldn’t god just order them to you know what i mean like you get into this loop where it’s like well why would he set it up that way it’s like oh we don’t you don’t have an answer for that there’s no possible answer for that so now it’s like well that doesn’t actually solve anything it’s just it just says well why is he putting things in the way that he then has to solve like that’s just creating problems for no reason right other than to force the israelites to do things it’s like okay um but again he’s forcing he’s forcing them to like wipe out cities and stuff so i don’t know it doesn’t solve the problem at all it just it just defers it right so we’re getting a blast from the past here from griswold graham he says my dad’s life game is strong we don’t like we just do yeah i yeah there’s got to be some difference between larping and actually doing in the world but yeah yeah i think he’s i think i think everybody wants to conform to that idea because it has implications so like honestly me and the old man were pretty straight edge company man middle of the road not gonna be all that rebellious we’re creatures we’re creatures of the center we are not creatures of the fringe that’s why i’m a priest yes yeah it’s a good point and and people fail to to sort of see where they are on the spectrum right and it’s like look if you’re on the outside there’s nothing wrong with that but also you’re on the outside yeah like some of that is your fault because you’re it takes a lot of work to stay on the inside right because right and it it takes it takes a lot of upfront work to stay on the inside right but there’s a lot of cost to to not putting in the work and remaining on the outside and it’s just that cost isn’t all at once and so the relationship isn’t direct and those people tend to get wiped out fairly regularly actually it’s not good but yeah also it’s hard to convince somebody when there isn’t a one-to-one correspondence with their actions in immediate time that your actions suck and they’re gonna come back that’s why we just have to say that’s a sin and if you keep doing it you’re good at hell well exactly and this is the whole thing around you know people waiting i know peterson had a tweet i don’t know it was last week or the week before but he had a tweet somebody said well i’m just gonna get a man when i’m ready and he’s like yeah what if there isn’t one available like maybe that’s not the option right and you don’t know that until you know you get caught up and the number of women i know who waited too long to uh to to to have children is uh pretty high and and and then then you got one shot at that point so now you’re in a bad situation yep yep it’s uh there’s certainly advantages to uh to marry and young huh that’s what my folks did yeah i mean it’s going to be hard either way the question is do you want options or not and you don’t have the options as you get older like they go down so it’s like maybe you want to get that out of the way quickly i don’t know well yeah well no grim’s yelling at you you can’t add and link at the same time just send the link maybe it’ll work i i don’t know why he’s not seeing that i think i’ll just shoot him a discord dm that might work or you just put him on your channel where he belongs it’s this traitorous randos united channel stuff i don’t know i’m trying it i’m trying it out we got this got this fancy do randos united channel it’s like i’m surprised you didn’t use uh jacob’s channel that’s what i do well he doesn’t and jacob you know it’s like it’s his channel and he doesn’t want me to talk about certain me to talk about certain topics without saying jacob would not approve of this which is a fair enough restriction yeah yeah okay and i just don’t want to abide by it so i’m not going to that’s fair that’s fair yeah yeah no giving giving him free press doesn’t seem useful yeah yeah so uh so i i uh i tried to do it all on my own you know and it’s not like i’m aiming to become a professional youtuber here i don’t need to be mr beast that’s fine mr beast yeah no you’d be mr priest mr priest i’m not doing that we’re not doing the cheap knockoff not doing this cheap knockoff stuff mr priest gives them 5 000 indulgences indulgences i love it that would be great i don’t have the hair i don’t have the hair i can’t do it i guess if you can recite all of the popes from memory you get 5 000 indulgences there you go wow oh have mercy on us yeah we can’t check something like that nowadays that’s the problem all righty we’ve got the broken clock tower himself here as the mercy’s here audience perhaps uh my camera is not functioning properly this evening okay that’s all right it may kick on at some point i don’t know um that’s what will happen with my streamers hi everybody hello i um i listened to the front and you said you were well versed in the seven sacraments i was wondering if if we could play a little game you and i i i think the holy spirit is uh it says devices it says device is not connected right so that might be a hardware issue or it might be the holy spirit saying that he didn’t like grizz’s game and we’re not going to play it i don’t know that’s that was pretty but uh it’s great television frankly you have to see that now we have to do a commercial break or something so this this podcast brought to you by thomas aquinas go to aquinas.cc and read everything oh okay there we go it’s an awesome website since i got to do this advertisement now website since i got to do this advertisement now i’ll go ahead and show you guys uh what what what sorts of things there are on the internet for those who want them so aquinas.cc here we have aquinas’s treatise on astrology which was basically science back in the day and you got the latin on this side and you got the english on this side right wow uh you come up here it’s like oh we want the summa right because the summa is where it’s at oh we want to go to the beginning of the secundus secundi which is awesome and we’re going to talk about um the order of charity and whether out of charity man is bound to love god more than himself and pro tip kids the answer is yes so anyway check out aquinas.cc because it’s got everything for free wow that’s cool yeah so that is cool so what father eric what are these uh what do these catholics make of things like asperry because i found that interesting that vander clay was talking about whatever was going on down there yeah um i guess it’s just i haven’t heard any commentary on the catholic end of things does that does that happen i liked um anselman described it to me he’s like he had this great in this perfect description he said oh it’s a moving of the holy spirit in a place i was like oh okay that now i know a revival is perfect now i totally understand it it was all i needed um because everybody was talking about it and i was like what the hell is a revival i mean he was the only one that answered by the way so that was that was pretty uh yeah yeah so it doesn’t happen the same way that revival means in american english i don’t think in catholic world right you’ve got a very specific context uh for that american thing you’ve got like people out in tents they’re praying for days on end right and and that’s just you know it’s like we’ve got things that are kind of like that where like uh people there’s more intensity there’s coming back there’s all those sorts of things um but it’s um it’s not it’s it’s not the same it’s not that praise and worship music and people have to be there around the clock sort of thing not when it happens it’s usually like there’s a saint and the saint founds a religious order just doing good things and everybody hops in on it gotcha that’s usually what revival looks like in like in like the uh you know they were trying to do um they were trying to do they were trying to prevent the protestant reformation in the 15th century right and so you would have these priests go around and they go from town to town and they would give these you know straight to the point sermons um and people get real excited about it and they would want to uh participate in it and and they would you know and you know see this is this is what it is it’s like oh we’re gonna do something like this we better have some priests on hand to hear confessions right and then we’ll you know we’ll make sure that we have a mass you know and um and maybe even a procession you know uh procession through the town so that’s what it would look like if if we were having a catholic revival i mean we would do the preaching and we might even do the praise and worship music there’s a lot of catholics who are into that not my cup of tea but you know we’ll roll with it right church is a big place um but it’s gonna have it’s gonna have the confessions it’s gonna have the mass and it’s going to have um probably some processions if the weather’s nice sometimes even if the weather isn’t nice we’re just gonna get out and march around you know yeah with with relics even because that’s a that’s a thing that used to uh i mean we could do like what are we what are we doing right it’s corpus christi we’re gonna we’re gonna take the the eucharist and we’re gonna put it into the monster and so we’re gonna march around with that right uh is it a merion feast day we’re gonna have a statue of mary right protestants hate that and we just do it right because yeah yeah and we could do relics too yeah um so it’s not really an american thing but we should make it an american thing yeah yeah i know i think that’ll be useful well because that raises the question i mean the one the one thing that that we’ll say the the protestants are doing pretty well is dealing with these movements of the spirit right where people are spontaneously you know getting uh getting some kind of profound experience in the moment and other people are able to sort of keep that chain of energy or whatever however you want to frame it running yeah yeah i mean if something really big is happening oh here’s another here’s another point um is that uh when um catholic revivals tend to happen um usually it’s because mary showed up i’d like started talking to people right yeah oh i think we’ve got a uh a new face here uh john what’s your story john i don’t think i’ve ever met you before talk before but i heard i heard the uh discussion about asbury and the revival going on and i’m one of the resident charismatics so oh i’ve seen you i’ve seen you before uh you did a video with jeff or somebody didn’t you like two years ago with nick freerillian nick another one with coleppa heidegger that was a while ago but yeah okay all righty so yeah i’ve got opus day versus liturgical dance let’s go i’ll tell you there’s there’s plenty of dancing in in you know in the church that i grew up in there there was a lot of dancing going on but it was not you know organized let’s say it wasn’t a liturgical dance it was just a dance huh but but they took a lot of inspiration from you know when when david is you know bringing the the uh the arc back into its rightful place and he’s you know dancing wild man and you know michael michael you know his wife looks down and you know it was basically despised him despised him in her heart and so he cursed her and so that’s like some of the evidence that they take that like if you do it with a you know uh you know a good orientation and a good you know the right spirits the right heart about it then you’re good because like david did this and he danced like a wild man and he didn’t follow like the you know whatever 0.12345 or whatever so liturgy now here’s the question i have and this is actually a question i haven’t gone and done any research for it is that is there any instance in the bible where people were actually dancing inside the temple or was it always in procession to the temple well that’s an interesting question i haven’t thought of that right because this is this isn’t something that happens in the united states but it’s something that happens especially like in africa right is that um they’re like hey dancing is a part of our religious tradition can we bring that into the church and the answer the church has basically come up with is that when you’re going uh in a procession towards the church that’s fine and it’s not like they’re doing particularly it’s mostly like a rhythmic walking you know they’re kind of kind of coming up you know doing a rhythmic walking um and then um but then like once they get into the sanctuary there isn’t really uh uh any more uh dancing at that point and so i’m wondering if they didn’t like look at the old testament say you know we don’t really see david dancing inside the temple but he’s dancing on his way up to the temple and that’s how we got to that that uh that that peaceful place yeah i have i have some thoughts on the dancing when it’s a good moment um there’s a messianic congregation here in northern colorado that does um congregational dancing to uh hebrew jewish music religious hebrew music and they travel almost every year to jerusalem and dance there in jerusalem uh to celebrate and they participate with other people and stuff um i noticed that it’s part of their part of their um religious service but after the the sermon and worship music so they usually have like uh practice and dance um at at the end of it in the like sunday afternoon or saturday after saturday afternoon i should say they do the sabbath thing and um they also uh dance and go in parade with the israeli flag and in costume and stuff so so there’s that’s a little bit of uh dance but it comes from the hebrew hebrew roots so they learned that the men and women dance separately in israel so they adjust their dances for israel when they go there um but they they have women and men dancing together in circles or in line dances and it’s it’s it’s very group oriented it’s actually very uplifting i’ve done it quite a few times i haven’t been to the covid and stuff and then they moved to a different city in northern colorado so i was like i’m not getting that um but i have a friend who is actually a part of the uh who used to go to that uh congregation when she was a young child and she’s now part of the uh official dance team so there’s a little bit of dance in in that and there’s some messianic congregations that are very dance oriented as well interesting yeah i mean so it was funny that you you know they do the hymns and they do the sermon and then they do the dancing and it’s like in the catholic mind it’s like you do the hymns and you do the readings and the sermon and then you do the eucharist right like that’s what we’re putting in the middle of this right and yeah oh they’re putting dancing in there that’s yeah well and that’s to what those people you’re talking about are doing valerie and to kind of tie into your sort of original question father eric is that like i think the reason for being able to like obviously like i don’t know any charismatic who who’s thought about the distinction that you’re talking about it’s really interesting you know the procession versus the actual inside the temple so to speak but i think what they would say especially charismatics would say is like well the spirit is on every believer now you know the you know every every believer is is the new temple right that’s that’s sort of what they would say um and and you know by that then you know the the expressions of worship from there are basically you know not restricted to a particular time or situation um and of course you know they’re going to have different expressions of worship like they’re not going to really consider uh like you know the eucharist as much of an act of worship as high church that’s one of the reasons i’m now in an acna church instead of a low church charismatics context because i think that’s important but you know i don’t know i still have i still would have no problem with people like dancing in a service in in the sort of ways that i grew up with though obviously it’s going to look a lot different in a high church liturgical set but yeah yeah yeah that good to see you good to see you too yeah i’m sorry i’m just getting a feel for what’s going on yeah yeah well uh mark brought up the uh that asbury revival thing and was asking about um what that would look like in catholic land and it was like it would look different you know because usually when we have a big revival it’s because blessed virgin mary showed up and told us all to start praying the rosary and stop sinning uh it’s so convenient yeah we just wait for her to show up uh either that or there’s a giant crisis which we’ve been ignoring it is now no longer able to be ignored uh that was the protest the counter-reformation right there um or uh yeah somebody somebody just starts doing good and everybody follows after him so so yeah yeah i mean i will give you this credit i mean if it’s if it’s just takes the virgin mary man i mean it’s really clear when it happens right you know it’s like you don’t have oh is this asbury thing you real or what’s going on you know it’s just wow but it’s not because there’s a history of of false prophets and false prophetesses and uh the church has to go in there and deal with that as well you know somebody who’s claiming that uh you know blessed virgin mary told them that um you know usually it usually like starts off plausible so they get people to follow them and then it’s either politics or you know a cult of personality after that uh and it’s like oh that’s not good that’s not good so anyway the the nice thing is is that we actually have the uh the structure to to deal with false uh false prophets it’s like oh the bishop needs to investigate this okay i sure hope he does a good job but at least at least the buck stops somewhere right in these days either yeah yeah i pluses and minuses right because if you if you do have a genuine sharing or whatever like asbury seemed to be there’s no space for that on the catholic side right it’s just like no no virgin mary no emergency what do we do well i wouldn’t i i mean just because i haven’t seen it happen in my lifetime doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen right but that’s what i mean like it’s got to be happening why are the protestants why does it happen all the time in process it never happens so i don’t know about never there was that charismatic renewal in the 70s and they did bear some good fruit and some um some not so good fruit uh there were some people who kind of spun off and started doing their own thing but most people kind of stayed and and so so yeah there it is the catholic charismatic revival i just wasn’t around for it in the 1970s yeah you have them way more often than that that’s all my point is still i mean i you know you could you could get on a road here in arkansas and drive down the road and find five churches that have scheduled revivals in the next month i mean they happen all the time that’s different nobody scheduled anything right something happened and and like the point that that banderclay made which i thought was excellent you know it’s not like it was a good sermon guys you know it’s kind of you know and and then something happened it’s like oh okay wow this is weird and and so where’s the space for the weird effectively right because that’s where the spiritual side is right that’s the spiritual side people should be you know taken care of in the church i mean this is this is very much a discussion i was having with my with my aunt after the after the talk i did with you father eric he told him she was not happy he was like my shirt right it’s i’m like what are you protestant all the protestant my church is doing great stuff and it’s like well maybe but we still have a problem like i’m glad that it’s you think it’s not a problem where you are uh what’s that worth like that’s not worth that much you know and and are you addressing the same issue because like her point was well we help the homeless people and i’m like that’s great you’re helping with their materialist needs who’s helping the affluent with their spiritual needs because that’s what i care about i don’t care about the homeless people are easy to fix if you’re just dealing with materialism and and i think they did separate like secularity such as it is and what this is one of the things that occurred to me recently when you say secular you’re saying objective material reality that’s what you’re saying you’re saying the same thing doesn’t exist there’s no such thing as secularity the thing that moves the world is the ethereal the spiritual side that just is so now you’ve got a problem right because you can’t separate heaven and earth you can’t do that so so how do you how do you address that because they they did they agreed to a bunch of things the churches did you know in the united states with well you can’t preach while you’re giving out food and stuff it’s like no that’s the opposite of what you need to do yeah you’re feeding of the 5000 spiritual food and physical food at the same time it’s a man who can do you both yeah yeah well and you used to they used to do both then that was the complaint in the 70s and 80s and they did change the law in the united states somehow which i don’t agree with isn’t that sort of the outgrowth of the like social gospel stuff in england in the 1800s where that sort of like sublimation of the church of england into like basically charity organizations am i making that up i don’t care who started it doesn’t doesn’t matter well it’s just it’s interesting to see those you know repeated patterns no it’s it’s the asbury stuff’s interesting when i was in when i was in college there was actually uh there’s a house of guys that started doing these you know because it’s what you do like acoustic worship sessions and and this like little rental house and within like i don’t know three four weeks there was shoot we have two or three hundred people showing up you know the every single room in the house was packed out we consistently get the police showing up for noise complaints and like went on for like like 18 months or so um you know and like i have a couple of friends whose lives were dramatically changed by what was going on there i mean the leadership problem is obviously like a very pertinent one you know it wasn’t even connected with any protestant ministers or anything like we had pastors from you know protestant congregations showing up and like what’s going on here you know it’s like is this all okay um it’s interesting and then you know it just sort of happened no one was planning it and then it you know went along and then it stopped going along um yeah it’s just interesting the way that enthusiasm like the word enthusiasm is a really interesting one like we’re all very enthusiastic and you know the degree to which that you know that the there’s like five or six guys that were living there they’re all really you know really integral to it and um just interesting this is this was within a decade ago um um here and you know radically different trajectories some of their lives have gone on it’s it’s very hard to you know that whole thing of picking out the fruit of that stuff is you know on what time scale in what way for whom that stuff’s tough right yeah right right well and that and that’s that’s what i’m saying like if you’re missing the opportunities as a catholic church to take advantage of those things that can be life-changing right and and you know like being for how long who cares like to some extent if you’re better for five minutes you’re better for five minutes like what don’t look and give course in the mouth right and then the protestants have a problem right because they don’t have authority to to do anything about stuff it’s like well all right let’s let’s look at this closely and look at whatever you want dude you get no force behind you you’ve got nothing you get no say in anything you’ve you’ve given all that up because the structure you’re a single person now you don’t have a structure behind you effectively because everyone’s all scripture man it’s just me the bible god and yeah maybe sometimes i’ll hang out with this fire and brimstone preacher when he’s talking on sunday but like there’s really not enough structure there to do anything and and that’s why they tend not to do anything yeah well here’s here’s like an open question in that regard to i mean you know i think for father eric but for you know anyone who wants to sort of answer it is i i’ve sort of come to this conclusion there’s so many things i like about the charismatic stuff and all of the stuff that i grew up with the low church evangelical charismatic you know the gifts of the spirit the the types of worship the the prophecy and you know prophecy spare quotes whatever you know you know what i mean um all that but i have also come to such an understanding of how important the eucharist is as you know i don’t care about if oh transubstantiation consubstantiation whatever it’s christ body and blood you know real presence i’m fine with that and and all of the sort of liturgical structure and the liturgical year and all of those things and what i would like to see and this is such a protestant urge you know oh what i think for ideal church so forgive me that uh um what i would like to see is some church that or some some means of service that integrates both of those things now i think in the at the end of the day the eucharist is the most important because that is christ himself and every every every christian should be receiving christ himself and you know everything in a liturgical service should lead up to that um but i think what also needs to be made room for is this more spontaneous dynamic you know we’re going to be open to the movie into the holy spirit whatever nice phrase you want to put out to that sort of worship service where there’s you know prophecy where there’s you know intercessory prayer or all the you know speaking of tongues whatever it is and so you know that that’s the sort of church that i want to be part of again the protest but and i don’t see any church that’s integrating both of those things and i’m not saying there’s a solution like i don’t know what that would look like you know okay we’re doing the main thing on sunday then maybe we’re doing the charismatic thing on tuesday night i don’t know something like that yeah i mean uh i remember i was a seminarian in detroit michigan uh that’s where i did my first four years of seminary and i i wasn’t that far along in seminary and i looked at the vocations poster for the diocese of lansing michigan and i noticed that fully half of their seminarians came from one parish right so how’s that for a perito distribution for you um and it was christ the king in an arbor and it’s a catholic parish that is it’s not a territorially organized parish it’s a it’s a it’s a personal parish yeah it’s a personal parish and uh it’s a personal parish for any catholics that belong to the catholic charismatic movement and so they do all of the like charismatic style worship in the modern roman rite what that means is that their masses take about two hours um whereas here like 50 minutes you know we’re just kind of just we’re just moving along at a good pace we’re not like putting in any extra time for the movement spirit right um but here their masses will take an hour 45 two hours and and they’re just going to like spend time with the the guitar and the drums and people will be you know speaking in tongues and then it’ll go for a while and then they will um move on with the liturgy of the eucharist and and and have the roman rite in there now i don’t know if i would like that because i’m not much of a free realed charismatic type but they produced half the diet vocations for the diocese of lansing and they had like 30 guys in the seminary which is great numbers for a diocese of their size so man i’m not going to look at the results and say stop doing that right i might not want to be a part of it but i’m not going to tell to stop yeah so maybe you just need to move to lansing and you’ll find the perfect church i don’t know oh man the winners there are long and cloudy and cold i don’t know oh yeah but you don’t have the lake effect snow that far inland so you don’t have to worry about that that’s that’s true yeah i mean i grew up in the madison wisconsin area and we didn’t really get it there either but yeah the winds move in the wrong direction my dream if i was going to be implementing this what i would have it would be a certain amount of time before they live the eucharistic liturgy started for the the charismatic on a sunday morning and people who are really into church like they’ll spend two three hours there like they won’t care right like they’re there they’re happy to be there so it would be like you know however long people want to do it they want to go 40 minutes they want to go an hour that’s fine they could do the the praise of worship music the charismatic stuff and then they can have all that emotional energy build up and then we’ll take like five minutes of silence we’ll ring the bell and then the roman rite and all its pristine beauty begins at the chanting and the incense and all and then and then we just bring everybody together in one big happy family and the father erics of the world they can just come for the eucharist i mean if i had not grown up in that stuff i would have think these people are crazy what are they doing you know the the swinging from shane that your stereotype they would actually do that but you know you walk in there and you’ve never seen that stuff like i totally understand why okay i’m just gonna skip the first two hours so i get you know get christ and that’s whatever so yeah and i bet it would be a truly catholic church because it would be for everybody people who want it all they can get it all people who just want to scooch in those five minutes of quiet between the end of the praise of worship um yeah you know what’s you know what’s interesting is like so in latin america that’s basically the entire distribution of christianity it was like you don’t have any of the like mainline protestants there’s an or Lutheran none of that you have roman catholic and you have real intense pentecostals like that’s it you’re either like going to the roman rite or you’re like going to some like rented shop and getting slain in the spirit like that is like that’s everyone um so it’s just interesting that that you’re describing that and i’m like yeah go to paru and like it’s yeah it’s the two sides you’re like and i don’t know yeah yeah who knows who knows that there’s an integration for that um but it’s it’s also interesting that the society has basically flocked from one to the other you know in process you know it’s been again it’s been eight years since i’ve been down there so i don’t really know what’s what’s going on but back then it was like yeah roman catholic or or pentecostal light as they called it so yeah yeah that’s interesting that’s really interesting i and i yeah it’s funny john have you ever been to um did you i don’t know where you are now but uh iHOP in kansas city my parents were there a few times back in 2000 and that was international house of prayer mark yeah yes no i yeah i read up on that but yeah no i like the pancake joint better i’ve been there many times but yeah that’s not the same yeah but you know they’ve been having a uh prayer revival that’s been going on since 1999 you know so right that’s what i mean like they the protestants have these things like constantly right there’s they’re like every five years right and like because there there does need to be order and structure and i think at at in in you know at the daily level that’s what a liturgy provides on a yearly long-term level that’s what the church calendar and so i i see the reason for that because like here’s here’s a funny thing so my my pastor back back home in wisconsin he would the head pastor would always talk about um you know this is this is the the kairos moments about you know this is god is going to do something new it’s going to holy spirit thing and you know there’s kairos and there’s chronos so there’s two different greek words and the kairos is the opportune time like okay this is the time but we’re going to go you know but he would use that so often that it functionally became chronos you know he just come up saying it’s the kairos moment every you know every week not quite every week but close enough john i think that i think that point about like the you know the liturgical calendar is is interesting i’ve had a couple of in-depth discussions with one of my sisters about the difference between um variety and um novelty and like i mean i would say broadly speaking we’ve moved into a culture of novelty in the last hundred years rather than variety and and i for me looking at the you know as a recent convert to catholicism looking at the liturgical calendar i mean i’m just let’s see first i’m going to traditional mass was like right around ash wednesday last year so there you go so um but the idea that you you have because we just can’t most people just die in sameness and so your two options are to find things that are new or to cycle through things sort of on a basic mathematical you know and i think that when you don’t have those cyclical things in place then you end up looking for something else and so yeah i’ve been to those churches that have been you know preaching the kairos moment for 20 years and you’re like kind of lost the point here yeah right and so and to just but to but to embrace that and say look for one thing we need something different to be happening all the time to hold our attention and then on the other hand you know this story of god’s redemption is so multifaceted complex rich etc etc that you can’t sit down and listen to it all in one sermon or in one service or think about it at one period and so instead you’re saying all right today we’re going to pick this one thing out and then next week we’re talking about another thing we’re going to take this month to look at this part we’re going to take this month to look at this part um i mean that’s one of those things where you look at that and you’re like either that’s the most natural thing that humans could do and therefore wrong or it’s the most natural thing humans could do and therefore right right and it’s like and you know there’s this sort of like wow that’s just what people do so it must be wrong and i it’s you know it’s it seems like it it seems fitting um that we would because i think that when you get out of that then you end up in this sort of cycle of what’s the new thing what’s the next thing what’s the next thing what’s the right you know and instead to just like double down on it and say look like we’re just going to kind of have to keep rehearsing this over and over and you know you can look forward to those nativities songs like it’s fine to do that you don’t have to have something you know crazy happen you don’t have to have the newest release from wherever um so yeah well and and just to to you know argue the other side as well because i think it is it is a absolutely great point that that if you if you come up if you come at the liturgy and the the structured year the calendar year in the wrong spirit it just becomes rote and you’re just showing up and you’re just fitting to the structure and the structure there’s too much order and it’s too rigid and you know the the charismatics would say you’re not letting room for the holy spirit to come in and you know sometimes they’re right about sometimes they’re wrong about that but there are cases where they’re definitely right about it and of course i and i think this is the danger that like you know i think catholics have have a you know have someone of a ball on this i don’t know what it is but you know you guys can figure this stuff out for 2 000 years charismatics and well let’s say modern charismatics have been around for just over 100 years so it’s a little bit of a difference um learning curve a lot more time to to percolate and to think about so yeah yeah no that’s really interesting that’s a great point about the the liturgical calendar and it becoming rote um the way to keep the liturgical calendar from not becoming just a rote observance is to just really love our lord and it’s like it’s like i’m just looking i’m you know like i’m just looking forward to doing easter doing the easter ritual i’m looking forward to all of the holy week work even though it’s a lot of work and it’s only going to become more work the more and more responsibility that i get you know put under but it’s like yeah this is great you know and and there’s if you really if you really give your heart over to it there’s more for you every year so there’s something i noticed last year which i had never noticed before is that we cleaned the tabernacle out on holy thursday and like i had done that before i had walked into the church and i’d seen the tabernacle okay there’s no eucharist in the tabernacle this year and then i walked into and i did it this last year and it was like oh we’re doing spring cleaning now that’s what we’re doing right and it’s it’s not like you know it’s bad but it just needs to it just needs to you know and it’s like yeah i had to do uh holy week 30 times or 29 times before i noticed that and so if you’re really showing up and you’re really paying it that proper reverent attention and you’re you’re you go through the motions enough eventually it makes sense to you right just like children babbling words they don’t know what they’re saying but but they need to babble in order to to gain speech you know so i mean and yeah like that’s the solution to everything it’s just to pay proper loving attention to it it’s just hard because everything wants our attention so well i think iris iris murdoch said something like virtue is loving attention to reality which or goodness goodness yeah she said goodness is loving attention to reality and there’s a uh john shiardi i don’t know if you’re familiar with him i really like his daunte translation but he i came across a quote from him the other week which was hell is the denial of the ordinary which is maybe a little over the top but i don’t know i just like the this whole like sort of like thirst for like the next thing i mean i spent a lot of time in like protestant and pentecostal churches i mean that’s what i grew up in like pentecostally been non-denominational churches and like fact is that stuff gets rote too like it just does like i you know like i’ve got friends here old co-workers who are like slain in the spirit kind of people and i could probably like have both sides of the conversation with them every time and i don’t i don’t blame them for that like how many different in some sense like you have to keep having the same conversation about god because because he’s not changing right and he’s and we’re also people where this you know fundamentally our human nature hasn’t changed and so there’s this i think there’s way too much denigration for this it’s not how do you create a system that can’t become rote because obviously that’s impossible i mean you can get bored with novelty you know tsl it’s distracted by distraction from distraction it’s like yeah that’s gonna happen so not how do we create a system in which you can’t get bored or distracted or rote but doing exactly what you’re saying father which is like developing the internal state that the the disposition that allows you to come to these things that i mean we look at what god gave he gives us like repeated generations same life cycles same seasons same food you know animals produce after their kind trees produce after the kind flowers produce after the kind it’s the same flowers it’s the same sun sun it’s the same stars it’s like all is vanity or right all is vanity or god is trying to tell us something which is that goodness is sufficient unto itself and that if you’re bored like your orientation towards reality needs to be tweaked and i would say thus likewise for the liturgy you know likewise for worship yeah to some extent it’s that there is this yeah you can’t just have novelty all the time you’ll burn out for one thing and so the imprint goes away and then all of a sudden it’s not novel anymore right even if it’s different it doesn’t matter you just can’t stay in novelty all the time yeah that’s why when you when you do when you do any kind of drugs at all right the effects to attenuate over time like just do right i mean homeostasis and well and that’s and that’s the problem right she said you know god god stays the same yeah but the world doesn’t and you don’t independent of that and that’s why systems built on natural order don’t work because the natural order is way bigger than us and we don’t have a chance at understanding it right when you said don’t when you said don’t work do you mean like don’t work infallibly no they don’t like we we can’t grasp that oh you mean you need something from the outside to explain what’s going on no no no i mean you you have no hope and so even if there is a natural order say the nomological or the way vervecki talks about it’s not relevant because you’re not you can’t encapsulate it and that’s why when when you know because some people make much ado about the Mayan calendar and the was it 12 000 year cycle and you know whatever right and it’s like but they only had the stars of course they understood astronomy like you know and then you’re surprised that they could measure out 12 000 years why would that be shocking again right but but if it is a 12 000 year cycle or however long it is what does that really tell you because you’d have to experience more than one cycle to see the pattern at 12 000 years and you’re gonna live that long kids so i what you know what i guess it’s just it’s hard i’m not really sure what you’re talking about when you say a system based on natural order like i don’t know what that would look like but what you’re referring to that’s what vervecki and and peterson and pretty much all the scientists want they want normal logical order normal logical order natural order okay so you don’t want narrative order you don’t want natural order okay so you don’t want narrative order fine uh now what but anything they pick is going to be way too big that’s why narrative is the correct answer like okay a better answer because everything else cannot you by yourself and you knew and 50 of your closest friends and you and all of the recorded data through time it still isn’t going to work like it’s still a no so like it’s great even if even if that were possible it wouldn’t help you because and again and this is what people never account for and you can say things like there are unchanging virtues and values right music well nature has a cycle but nature seems to have lots of cycles by the way and they’re not all one year right um but the thing they’re not accounting for is you’re moving to like independent of everything else and so you know your your inability to pay attention to your own orientation which is really what we’re talking about right yeah you’re in this liturgy sure it’s the same all the time but there’s a depth to it that you can engage with and then notice hey wait we clean up the tabernacle oh what’s that about yeah right there’s a depth there and so you can get your novelty when it’s required with the depth and that goes back to the whole charismatic thing it’s like you need a space for that and then you can wonder like is the lack of structure something that’s sort of forcing this revival thing to happen so much in Protestantism is the lack of that larger structure that that more um more permanent right long cycle structure the thing that causes right or at least contributes to these constant revivals whereas you know having that structure in place with Catholicism you know and I don’t know like this is all speculation it’s just you see these things it’s like oh there’s a pattern there for sure right and and it could be yeah you know the Catholics probably need more space for that I would agree with that but but also you know it would happen less frequently anyway because there’s more focus on on these cycles and there’s very long cycles in the in the Catholic tradition that that I don’t think most people are even aware of right and that’s really the problem when you when you talk to Protestants their complaints about the Catholic Church actually aren’t applicable to the Catholic Church they’re applicable to competing Protestant denominations but not to the Catholic Church which I always find interesting so here’s my maybe slight counter argument to that is um like you’re definitely right in the sense that the the nature of revivalist Protestantism in the U.S. has what would you say led to this disorder or this this you know has contributed to some degree to the meaning crisis um but I don’t think it’s something that in the modern west is exclusive it’s by no means exclusive to revivalist Protestantism I mean you know Ireland Quebec you know two of the most Catholic regions in the entire world and the faith just collapsed there in the midst of a single generation and so you know oh well was it was there something inherent in Catholicism that caused that well that’s a discussion you could have was it something about specific you know specifically Catholic but the point is that that Catholicism in itself did not keep those those you know those countries on the straight and narrow you know no no well I’m not and I wasn’t proposing it that way right I mean my whole thing is the meaning crisis is caused by the intimacy crisis right and the intimacy crisis is made worse by the materialism disease that everyone’s ignoring including the people in the church and and that was like that was my discussion with my aunt when she said well we take care of the homeless people and I’m like yeah that’s wonderful what do you do for the affluent people who are who are lacking who have a spiritual need because these are the people I’m talking about these are the people Verbecky’s talking about these are people that Peterson’s talking about because look at the end of the day as much as I love them all they are elitists and they aren’t paying attention to the homeless even a little bit which is it right because they and you know this because they never bring up the contrast they never talk about here’s all these homeless people like like and Van de Plein does an excellent job of this right he says there’s no atheists living on the street isn’t that an interesting observation to make wow if you were honest and you were paying attention that should really change the way you think about the meaning crisis if you’re John Verbecky or it should change the way you think about the male crisis if you’re if you’re Peterson however he’s framing it this week right and it doesn’t so I mean with you know when I now that I’ve been to Europe I can talk all about it finally um you can see the collapse but you can see the collapse and the fact of the matter is the Catholic Church seems to be holding something up somehow that’s very mysterious because the where they are if you kind of look and I’m not saying it’s easy maybe maybe only I can do it I have no idea but if you kind of look they should be way further down than they are and and somehow they’ve managed to hold on on the other hand you know war is a coming so I wouldn’t want to be out in Europe like Teo is poor Teo. Mark have you read any of Walker Percy’s novels or Lost in the Cosmos? No no book should be burned that’s my new that’s my new thing. Well if you you know narrative he he spends a lot of time talking about the sort of vacuity that’s possible between the people who are affluent and educated and cultured and then the like total vacuum that can exist inside of them and I just read the second coming and I’ve read a couple of his books before and it’s just like it made me think about also the uh I don’t know if what is it the unbearable lightness of what is it how there’s some unbearable lightness of being of being is that related to the Nazi the Nazis in charge of Auschwitz? I think that although I might be remembering uh it’s a postmodernist um Camus. Oh okay no sorry it was a reference to that it was a it was a piece of it was a piece of academic work that was that was ripping off of that was the unbearable lightness of being a Nazi and it was about like you know the the Nazis running the Auschwitz camps and like the the officers are reading some of the best you know like on their bookshelves in their office they’ve got some of the best poetry in the world and you know from English culture and they’re literally listening to Mozart and Beethoven and you’re just like oh that’s really rough yeah and Mark like I mean when I last time I was in southern Germany like 10 years ago and it was the same thing where it was like you know they’re they’re at the level now where they’re like putting in second door second story doors for their cats with like walkways like that’s the degree of like material security that’s going on they’re like does the cat have an entrance to the second floor of the house and then but then you also know what Europe is like and you’re like okay what’s the ratio of you know violent deaths to suicides and like you know what’s the rate of you know IVF versus natural conceptions and what are the fertility rates and on and on and on and on you’re like that’s not a that’s not a culture that’s alive that’s a culture that’s like sort of biomedically alive right well it’s right because you know you go to Edinburgh where I was it Edinburgh’s stunningly gorgeous like it’s just cool you can’t look anywhere and not be like stunned with beauty it’s impossible it’s just impossible literally impossible right and everyone there I mean when I got there I was like these people are zombies these are people are actually like as close to being zombie out of movie comic book whatever you know popular trope you want to use as is is humanly possible and they were looking straight across and down and they weren’t looking around at all the beauty and and you could you could you could hear them chewing on the bones of the ancestors and there were no Scottish people in Edinburgh they’re all foreigners it was weird it was really weird and you could you I really just got a feel for it and a few other people when I mentioned it a while back on on Vanditlay stream a few other people like yep and it’s the same in England but not as bad but you know Scotland’s really bad and you know so the damn free mace sorry yeah yeah well free mace was interesting because man there’s a lot of Christianity in there it’s just uh you know devoid of that of that last step or or you know it’s middle out right it it’s ignoring genesis uh free mace is Christianity without genesis that’s part of the reason why I really resonated with with Ken Ham’s talk because I was like wow this is this kind of explains everything that’s not starting at the beginning trick that they’re doing this middle out thinking yeah yeah well anyway Mark if you do ever stop burning books and read them Walker Percy’s he’s he’s interesting he’s pretty brutal I mean like pretty brutal about it but you know if you’re interested in that in someone who’s done some thinking about that relationship between between the ability to be extraordinarily affluent and also just totally dead it’s these boy he gets you with a narrative on that one and it’s like and generally thinks a salvation of people comes from these you know remarkable you know violent encounters with reality where all of a sudden it’s like yeah none of that stuff matters and you’re like you’re like crawling through a swamp with a knife fighting an alligator or something like that you know it’s like yeah you know we’re keeping a camp at midnight with guns going off or you know or a country like Ayn Rand and Raja right like yeah there’s something to it you know oh here’s what here’s that interesting contrast that I’m thinking about you brought up Mark and you’ve experienced both of these things because you’ve gone to the Billy Graham Museum and you’ve gone to Edentor you know you the poles of reality right there really was really one’s not wrong that’s a very prescient observation there yeah but like the contrast in America between you know a bunch of bunch of people in you know shorts and t-shirts going into a warehouse and singing praise and worship songs and they’re you know they’re totally they’re totally into it I mean some aren’t but a lot of them are totally into it and then you have the people you know in Europe you know the stones are crying out the buildings are crying out and they are they have you know they’re they have deaf ears you know they’re they’re they’re you know they’re not hearing well I can’t answer as much senior Shay said in his talk that was a really good talk yeah I’ll drop a link into the uh into the chat here yeah link that in and then of course link in our talk again too feather let’s get some more views on that topic yeah this whole theme though of eyes to see and used to hear like the way the way I process things everyone’s saying very similar things they’re not exactly they’re very close Ken Ham is really not far from Unseen your Shay and they’re both very close to what Peterson and Verbeke are talking about and they they all don’t see this and they don’t see this and they don’t see this and Verbeke are talking about and they they all don’t see this I get that but it really is close it’s very close well I think I mean Verbeke has his own I think strange relationship with with Christianity based on how he grew up I think Peterson doesn’t have a a well enough he doesn’t have a good enough comprehensive view on the whole spectrum of what Christianity looks like because I think you know what he probably grew up in the United Church of Canada whatever I’ve never heard him talk about it but you know now he’s talking you know Peugeot is like his closest Christian contact and like amen man I love the Orthodox I love a lot of Orthodox I love a lot of stuff about Christian Orthodoxy but at the same time it’s like maybe we should send Peterson to Asbury so he wouldn’t miss that like has he ever even dabbled in you know encountered something like that you know the entire spectrum of Christian experience and I think like I’m not saying I like I’m deficient in this too I’ve never gone to an Eastern Orthodox service I would like to but you know I think they’re awesome yeah I would like to see him do that and get a sense about like what you know what the what the whole spectrum works like no no that’s like that’s a good point and also you know while you were talking it sort of occurs to me that it’s interesting right because there’s no reason for Verbeke not to have access full access to Christianity you know on the other hand and this is where this is where the the theories that that I work on with Manuel Post come in right there was something about the trauma he doesn’t understand the poetics like he doesn’t get it and even though he has all the language whereas Peterson doesn’t seem to have exposure which is again this is different this is why I make this distinction between meaning crisis and crisis of faith I think it’s a real big difference even though people don’t see it right they’re casting it differently like when I was talking to my aunt she was like well anybody can read the Bible I’m like you know I’m telling you as a fact that’s definitely not true Isaac Asimov read the entire Bible cover to cover was still an atheist and wrote a commentary on it full commentary on it yeah it just if you don’t have that poetics you know that poetic way of informing the world you’re not going to make those connections and so you’re really far back like you’re just really far behind and you’re just too far away to hear some I mean that’s why Verbeke’s coming up with new language for old concepts for that reason right he’s coming to those concepts in real time a little late buddy right but but he is and then the Christians are getting upset right because they’re like we already have language that why he was a Christian he should know this language and he should but he doesn’t and that’s the interesting that’s the thing that should that should like school him out to you and say there’s something you don’t understand if if he should have it and he doesn’t have it and he’s coming at these concepts you can watch his you can watch him over the past like three or four years you can see him come to these conceptions and then make up a new word or reinventio a new word from the Greek or the Latin right because he loves to yeah it’s just all crazy right I think it was the conversation with like his most recent conversation with Peugeot Peterson from like I don’t know three or four months ago there’s this one great part where he’s like yeah you know if there’s a place where like people could like get together and do these practices and like come together on like a weekly basis and like all work on this stuff together and then like celebrate your relevance realization and then like all be reverent together and I’m like dude yeah no it’s it’s remarkable yeah and the stuff he misses he talks about distributed cognition and it’s like then why isn’t the Catholic church the smartest entity on the planet yeah I could ask that question for you if you really wanted it you know well no I mean I you know and there are some inconsistencies and there are problems right there are always problems but I you know I think the science is all caught up in in the accuracy and precision perfection problem and they don’t like answers that are messy and so they just don’t like that they’re like no no we should be able to get it right and therefore the church is wrong and it’s like I don’t think that’s how it works well here’s another angle on what you said and it’s going to sound strange at first but I think it applies is that witnessing a miracle cannot give you faith and like verbeke has seen what would you say miracles in the sense that he would never use the word miracle because he’s a scientist but right insights relevance realization all of these you know these these ways that that lift the veil from it can’t be accounted for but a purely materialistic frame exactly and and like he recognizes at least he recognizes that those are at least deeply meaningful and that is the closest thing that he’s going to get to a miracle but that is not sufficient to let’s say give him faith he needs what you’re talking about mark he needs more of this this you know I don’t even know the the it needs to be slated the spirit bro that means the canary needs the poetic way of informing the world and I think there are four ways of informing the world and they’re not knowledge right I think that’s where his model goes wrong and then those four ways are propositional procedural participatory and poetic and and there’s no part there’s no perspectival I think that’s a more fundamental way of dealing with things and then if you don’t have the poetic you can’t make these multiple connection points and then navigate them in participation and then come out in different places and you wouldn’t want to if you’re a scientist because you want to just redirect one-to-one correspondence connection and that’s wonderful right but and this this like mcgill chris talks about this in his books too right there’s two sides of the brain and one wants it this way and the other wants it that way and yet all right we don’t you know there’s no reason why we can’t account for this you know with a navigational tool and and strengthen that and and the one thing we noticed on the verveki server was almost everybody there was like well yeah I mean I’ve read I used to read poetry and I used to enjoy it but I don’t I don’t even like it anymore I won’t read it and and to John’s credit like the whole lectio practice is prose and poetry and so people would get back in that way and once and I don’t know what what comes first right but I think the participation was the thing we were drawing them in with so once they were encouraged to participate and the way our group practice went was you don’t have to be the reader right I did most of the readings probably because I had Blake and I had my um and I had my wisdom of confucius book so somebody would read and you’d watch them and then you go oh that’s kind of interesting maybe I should read some poetry so that I can do this practice because there’s a structure to it and then they would read right or on their own they would start reading the poetry and then all of a sudden bang right they’re they’re out of their meaning crisis and I don’t think that’s a coincidence and we get a lot of evidence after that that’s how it works if you can draw people into poetry that seems to be at least one of the components that gets them out of the meaning crisis and and into the world and you know almost all of them actually just ended up going to a church and I don’t know anything about that I never told them to do that but you know that that’s and this is more like where where’s the Calvinism right because you know and this is what I would say is if you think that you’re gonna if you think that you’re gonna say words and preach people into the faith now now you’re trying to take over right you that that’s not gonna work but if you participate with people in silence that that actually does seem to work better well this this is what like I have cherished so much about you know now being in the ACNA the Anglican Church is they have such a profound unity of the propositional or you know all the four P’s together and I think you know you could make an argument that the Catholics have this too and I think this this is something that what you’re talking about vervege is missing and here’s like an example is is the creed we say the creed every every service you know the Nicene Creed and what’s beautiful about it is that like okay yes if you reduce it down okay you can say it’s a statement about propositions you know about the nature of Christ nature in the holes whatever but that’s not really what it is you have you don’t know what it is until you participate in it and so you’re uniting all of the four P’s in this this one this one service you’re saying it with the whole congregation together you’re saying it with every church across the world on the same day in the same part of the service and I don’t know if for any of vervege’s work approaches that sort of unity of of of all the four P’s you know despite all the wisdom he has about what the four P’s are I don’t think anything he has you know anything that he’s sort of put out there has has approached that no he doesn’t in fact I mean we were working with him for a while on uh schematization of the practices in fact and the sticking point was in order to schematize the practices we had to fix the four P’s model and that was a no-go for him so he wanted nothing to do with it which you know fair enough like look it’s his life’s work and it’s wonderful work and it’s very helpful and obviously we used it to make a better model um but but also yeah I mean if that’s your if that’s your sticky point and also you like his project is fundamentally dividing up the church so this was a meme I made I like the meme except for perspectival it doesn’t exist okay that’s cool mark thank you John John I’ll do you one better we we we actually at high mass we sing the creed so there you go it’s even is even more out of just feeling you know although it was creed one today because we’re you know in a that’s the fundamental problem with John’s work he’s a scientist he carves everything up right take Christianity carve it up into pieces call them different things right yeah and then and now it’s been dissected and there’s no way to unify it there’s no he doesn’t he doesn’t have a way to do it so he just says written on over and over again nice that’s you ain’t have that it’s funny that you say it was dead we went to a Christmas service at the local university here and you know super secular all kinds you know men in the women’s choir women in the men’s choir kind of thing and but then like all but one song was sacred music half of it was in latin you’ve got these like students who are identifying as some other things singing you know the Ave Maria and I’m just like this is surreal like how is it that you’ve managed to get yourself in this place where you can cut this thing out and be like here it is this like thing that was living part of the liturgy part of this book you know all of these things part of a set of beliefs into practice and an institution and all these things we’re like we’re gonna take this one part out and like oh it’s choir music here you go Christmas it’s like oh this is so weird it’s like seeing someone’s arm on a table here’s here’s a yours and hopefully this isn’t too much of a tangent but here’s a question since I’ve got I’ve got aphorx on the line here specifically about the latin mass and I my my perspective is is I think the vernacular is very important and I think you know having services in the here’s the participation aspect of it having a service where somebody can fully participate in the service to me seems to require that it is in a language that they can you know understand and not just intellectually understand because our our relationship with a language that we know that we are a native speaker of is much more than the proposition and so like I can see the the beauty of the latin language and the beauty of the latin mass but I my sort of concern would be that if I just walk in there and I don’t know latin I mean it just it doesn’t it doesn’t connect to me as much on a participatory level so have you ever have you ever actually fair fair enough I have not a few things I will say I’m actually at least partially in agreement with you um and as a bit of a latin mass fan myself um I think that uh what the second Vatican council was actually calling for and what we would have benefited from greatly if we had actually got was putting some parts of the liturgy into the vernacular um uh specifically like the readings and perhaps I could even go as far as any of the movable prayers of the day if this is going to be different week to week you know I could I don’t I could see it I could see it um precisely so that people can encounter it in that way there’s something about the traditional latin mass most of its grammar is unspoken right it is it is extremely heavy in the gestures and in the symbolism and the thing about that is is that that is a universal language right like when I’m genuflecting over and over and over again to the altar you’re like hall whatever is on that altar is a big sticking deal and you can understand that without knowing a lick of Latin right you just you just watch it and if the priest is at least mildly competent at it you get that right okay and I’ll even make a defense of that Latin language is that this isn’t something that you need to get the first time right because like here’s the deal you’re going to be doing this every week buddy so you’re going to figure out what the words mean but when they’re in that sacred language it’s going to produce a different quality of attention to it a different quality of attention to that sacred text because you can’t attend to it like it’s a sacred language and not a vulgar language and I’m using vulgar in the in the sense of common right like I could just spit out these English words like they don’t mean anything English grammar super easy but like try to figure out you know don’t know these crazy boosts domain a misery according to uh ute and then I’m done because like I can’t handle that well but it forces me to like oh oh this is different this is um it’s very very different so it forces it forces that different higher quality of attention um so there’s my response and tradicionis custodias should be repealed in all of its force and suborum pontificens should be in uh force and vote for me for pope ah there we go that’s great father you got my vote so john I’ve we’ve been going to with my family and I we’ve been going to latin mass for about a year and that’s out of Protestantism and have been to orthodox services and novas ordo services and pretty much everything so what’s interesting is your point so when I also lived in Peru for about two years and this is when I was Protestant so you know going to Pentecostal Protestant services there in Spanish which I speak Spanish a lot better than I speak latin I don’t speak latin I can understand some latin because I speak Spanish and you’re absolutely right there’s a huge difference even though I was fluent in Spanish it’s like I’m not emotionally connecting with these with these words the way that I am with English you could get into a lot of why that is but it’s just a fact that being said that is in no way is an analogous experience to going to latin mass and until there’s more interesting um but yeah I mean what father eric is saying is is is all dead on on you know as the father of young children um they see that stuff they see the reverence they there’s you know there’s all these exactly what father eric was saying I mean like there’s all the stuff that’s going on that it can go way above your head and it doesn’t matter like you get this is about christ this is about union with him in the Eucharist like this is about reverence this is the place that is different from all the other like this is the place where we give all of our attention the whole room is shaped around that it’s like every it’s like a giant bullseye and even the language is like that too so like I mean you know so the the readings we get them in English after they’re chanted in in the liturgy in latin so you know the the priest will read them in english and then deliver the homily in english it’s not you don’t have to get the sermon in latin don’t worry but the entrance hymn and the recessional are in english and so you end up with this is sort of like the temple structure linguistically right you have like the outer courts and then the inner you have the holy of holies and that’s the thing you have like common english and then you have like the english prayers and hymns at the beginning and end so like a low mass too particularly at the end of a low mass there’s a lot of prayers at the end in english and then you have latin and then you have you know the you have the liturgy of the of the Eucharist in the very in the very middle of it and so what you end up with is in the same way physically the structure of increasing sanctity to make you pay attention to that thing that’s in the very middle you have a linguistic thing that’s functioning the same way that’s saying this is not common pay attention to this this is not the stuff you see on instagram it’s not the stuff you talk about on the street here it is pay attention you know this is my body in latin like i’m not what am i ever saying things like that i’m never saying that you know when the priest stands up and sings the our father in latin it’s like i am paying attention to this so but father did a better job of i mean everything he would say in the last year has been you can you can put it in the right you can you can talk about it in terms of propositional tyranny like what fight the propositional tyranny not understanding the propositions in the same way yeah yeah it’s that’s funny it’s interesting i mean here there’s maybe something that the that i know whatever way you go about it something important that the church should be doing is reversing the curse of battle and somehow reunifying human communication and human language within the context of the church and broad you know that’s that that that’s that’s a very broad you know statement and what you know what the what the pentecostals will say the charismatics will say is you know look that came at pentecost the all of the human languages you know others speaking in all the different languages this is where battle is reversed and things are coming back together and that sort of you know then leads into the theology of you know people praying in other human earthly languages people praying in tons the tons of angels whatever that’s that’s where that sort of comes together and let me let me propose this and see what you guys think of this could it be that the the orientation of the center of the liturgy around latin or if you’re orthodox to give them their fair shake you know greek which i i actually like that a little bit because it’s language of the new testament but whatever greek latin whatever it is do you think that there’s a sense in which bringing bringing the center of the service all into one language is like the reunifying of everything that was broken in battle what do you think yes that’s exactly how it was right okay well i mean it’s sorry father yes even the uh the the creed like you can if you put that that sort of thing into the uh yeah yes basically that i think the sacred language also accomplishes that john it’s yeah it is interesting so there’s there’s two latin mass parishes in arkansas and the one that we don’t go to but we go to occasionally it’s a little further away it’s very there’s a lot of hispanic congregants there so it’s probably like 30 70 or something like that and they’ll just it’s all the same service you know they’ve got the missiles that go from latin into spanish and the missiles that go from latin into english but like we all get to go and participate in the exact same liturgy and they’re not repeating it or anything it’s cool i mean i wouldn’t be like this theologically demonstrates anything but like it’s pretty sweet it’s sweet that we get to you know be next to each other doing this thing and that linguistic divide disappears it’s cool and and then my wife had this a similar thing like she went back to see um family and friends up in the northeast and she went to one of the latin mass parishes up there and she was like it’s the same thing like i feel like i’m going to the same church which you know there’s all sorts of you know cultural mandate you know instantiation of of the kingdom of heaven and these different cultures that you can make all kinds of arguments about that’s interesting but on the other hand there’s like a profound degree of unity that like hey we’re doing this it’s the same thing happening here it’s the same worship so and i that’s the exact same thing i like about you know anglicanism is that like again you’re doing the same thing like every church is doing the same thing because you’re following the calendar throughout every sunday and there’s a profound sense of unity in that um so there’s there’s there’s some tension between the the uh what would you say the individual parts of the body which which you you could say that that is where if you’re looking at the individual parts of the body well it seems like you would be oriented more towards the vernacular or even towards a you know a profound charismatic experience in church or something versus the unity of the body the entire body then you’re talking about uh you know you know one liturgy with one unified language across all you know across all time and space you know the church on earth and the church in heaven so yeah i mean the divine liturgy is pretty amazing the divine liturgy of saint john chrissostom so i don’t want anyone to throw that one out let’s hold on to that it’s like i you know well i would be interested to hear and hash out why between you know and i’m sure this stuff exists between like a half looking at orthodox you know me looking at you know an outsider to either of those traditions like catholic and an orthodox well latin or greek you know what i mean like a little more than that it’s rome or not rome that’s a that’s true that’s that’s very because there are there are there are eastern catholic congregations and churches so they’re doing the eastern rites in those languages but they’re in communion with rome um so there’s Byzantine catholic churches there’s you know anti-aukian catholic churches so all of that liturgy is which is part of the universal church’s heritage is is in there so all right Ted you’re robotting pretty good so on with that Teo you were gonna say something and we cut you off a wall all back back. I’d like Father Eric to answer Chris’ question then. Okay all righty so for the panel can demons profess Christ as Lord and i don’t think they could profess it and mean it whether or not they’d be able to say the words is they probably and they might not even be able to say the words i don’t know and uh he’s asking uh our our resident troll is can the panel profess that Christ is Lord so yes Jesus Christ is Lord yes Jesus Christ Mark’s the only one all righty got it yeah all righty i was going to comment that as the ignorant charismatic pentecostal protestants in the room it’s the conversation between the high church sounds pretty much what i thought it would sound like it sounds very heady very uh latin sacred language and i’m just trying to absorb it and as charitable spirit as possible but there is a very cynical voice in my brain just like that but i do i do find it interesting that the the language latin being a unification of greek in the eastern orthodox side i’m just trying to think in my nigerian pentecostal charismatic context how that would play out and it is hilarious uh just all of this are trying to control of this energy just breaking out of the spirit every three seconds in different parts of the church and yeah and my conclusion seems to be i think god knows what he’s doing uh nobody’s doing yeah and like i i also have that skepticism too because i think of the way that i was raised and i think i’m still figuring this out because like i said earlier i want both of these things i want the liturgical structure i also want like hey god’s gonna show up he’s gonna do whatever the heck he wants deal with it you know like let’s let’s have both of those and i think what’s so cool and i didn’t know you were you know you were in a charismatic context in nigeria that’s really cool because that that is where christianity is happening right now you know in the world like sorry catholics sorry american pentecostals it’s happening there we’ve got catholics of nigeria i had a classmate i had a classmate who was a nigerian yeah yeah but i and i think that’s an incredible thing this this is something i will argue for the something that the charismatic tradition has at least in the modern era that i don’t see any other tradition is that it has this this sort of it seems to have this appeal across you know racial gender cultural differences that’s what it had at the beginning of azusa street it was a bunch of poor black and hispanic you know men and women getting together in some warehouse and you know just you know basically letting the holy spirit come and do what he does right and i think that that sort of pattern that started there has been replicating itself all over the world in charismatic context in places africa the places like south america you know asia and so you know it’s not like you know the catholics or the anglicans or whoever are not doing good things in those places because they are but you know right now it seems like the the fire is really burning in that particular tradition more than any other and then hopefully maybe maybe it’s maybe it’s the job of the catholics or the angpins or the orthodox to come along and say okay here’s the fireplace the structure that we can make sure that this thing doesn’t burn down the entire forest because fair enough you need that yeah all right um also the uh the question you asked earlier jen i think was a great one about the language being oh for that it was father eric’s response to your question which is the um the pentacast the comment was that pentacast was the answer to the question as the people and your comment in the chat was pentacast is still happening and i read that was like that sounded so charismatic it’s like that’s the old thing it’s like just this continual pentacast or um language is breaking now is that’s the that’s what that was really driving it it’s um and that was the question i was going to ask earlier as well is the the holy spirit like um but charismatics we’re very enthusiastic about the holy spirit i don’t know if our theology and understanding of the spirit is correct but we’re very enthusiastic about the holy spirit and i don’t see the other traditions i don’t see again ignorance i’ve never been in a catholic church but i don’t know where the holy spirit fits in within the yeah the frame so if any of you can answer that yeah yeah we don’t um no we don’t talk about it and you know it uh the holy spirit is um i think the holy spirit is intentionally you know spoken above about it in terms of invisibility right you know you can see you can feel the wind blow you can watch the trees move but you don’t see the wind itself right that is actually invisible you can see the effects but you don’t see the person causing the effects and i think it’s it’s given this this very vague it’s like it’s more like a pointer than it is a proper name the holy spirit um so that it remains mysterious because the second that we think that we’ve got got in a box a we don’t and b um it doesn’t do us any good anymore because i’ve got all sorts of things in boxes and most of the time i just curse myself for having all these things because now i have to move again yeah that movement comes moving for sure and that’s that’s that’s why i thought things like asperi is a revival is an interesting concept if that is the you know we’ll say that the holy spirit is kind of hanging out for a bit somewhere right and then other people are able to participate all the sudden whereas and i like the way you put it father eric that there’s yeah the father and the son are sort of well understood containers that you know of an unchanging nature will say right whereas holy spirit like what does that mean yeah but but i think it is time and motion and i think that’s why it’s that way too like again i think that trinity’s best thought of his three aspects of the of the same phenomenon three perspectives on the same actual phenomena and i’ve already informed that’s heresy you guys in the comment section don’t worry about that you haven’t made your case yet oh i i guess i haven’t done the formal trial yet i haven’t dragged you in front of the inquisition to you haven’t even you haven’t even told me why you said it might be something related to modalism or something i think yeah no it is modalism that’s that’s the first thing john or teddy or somebody said they’re like oh that’s modalism come on no it’s definitely not no no it definitely doesn’t fit the criteria for modalism that’s what i mean what did you say three phenomena of the same nope three aspects of the same oh okay okay yeah that’s like oh you know ice ice liquid water and clouds are the same are three aspects of the same phenomena of the molecule water that’s like a black no but they’re not because they have different they have different different states and that’s the difference there’s no different state for god this doesn’t make any oh i think i think and correct me if i’m wrong father eric but i think the coin us would stay would would come back and say well they still have the same identical essence essence okay i was gonna say substance but i think that’s wrong substance is also be correct substance essence yeah okay yeah this is the consubstantial with the father and the creed right talking about the son yeah well so it might be i might be out of gas for a trinity i saw that on your face i saw that on your face 520 uh this morning and for those of you who are here at the beginning of the stream i talked about all of the fun things i did today and they were all worthwhile i think grace is trying to troll me and and and i think i think this has been a wonderful discussion uh tail john first time on the stream delightful to have you guys here um i’ll tell you what i think about charismatic catholicism is that i’ve met a lot of very holy people who like that guitar stuff and so i’m not going to say that it’s all bad because because it’s like yeah these are good men and i would i would trust them i would trust them good men and women so delightful to have you here bringing the spirit so god bless you all good night god bless