Being, Intelligibility & God - with Guy Sengstock (_VBL4Jr_290)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=_VBL4Jr_290

So you live in, you’re in California. Yeah, I mean, I live, actually I live officially I live in Alameda, but it’s basically a day area. It just like Oakland, like a little like it’s a little island right off of Oakland basically like an old port town or something like that. Nice. Yeah, it’s really nice. In fact, I’m I’m appreciating. I have a suit, I am super, I’m super sensitive to kind of the lack of this, like lack of soul like like track houses and shopping malls and all that kind of stuff, man, it just, I, it just all that stuff just makes me sick and nauseous, nauseous, like physically. So I, we found a place that’s like right in a really old neighborhood, like historical houses and you know they have malls, because they’re houses that, you know, I think most new housing developments are so strange. It’s like they build the houses to look like look like houses. Yeah, that’s such a good way to say it. Look like they’re like simulations, house simulation, simulacra. Yeah, totally, totally. So welcome. Glad that you could come on. Yeah, sorry it took so long to get it all together. You know, I’ve been, I’ve had some, my life has been crazy for the past year and a half and so it’s only just in the past few months that I feel like I said, okay, I know that there’s a bunch of people that said they wanted to talk to me, I need to kind of get back to them and so I just remembered I said I remember guys think stock had written you a few messages that kind of flew by, flew over my head. So, so yeah, I’m happy it worked out. Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah, I’ve been noticing you’ve been having more conversations lately with people. Has that been intentional or? It is intentional. It’s hard to totally understand why. It’s kind of an intuitive thing that I’m doing. I don’t completely understand it. I think it has something to do with Jordan Peterson kind of reappearing in on the horizon, but at the same time not appearing on the horizon, kind of being there but not being there. And I don’t know if that’s, it seems like that maybe that’s maybe what’s motivating this in my, but I’m not, I don’t know, it’s hard to explain it. It’s just this intuitive thing that I all of a sudden had a sense that okay, I need to also I think, I think, I think what it is is that I think that in the past maybe year and a half, I’ve been consolidating the people that have been following what I’m doing, trying to be more in contact with the people that understand that are wanting to develop it and not trying to reach out and have communications that will challenge me. And so I think that that’s it. I think that seeing Jordan kind of reappear in the on the horizon has made me think, okay, I need to not just focus on my thing. I need to really push myself so that I don’t stagnate in this space. So who’s the person, the hardest person that I could, that I could talk to, like the person that would be the most challenging. And so I found these kind of more hardline atheist to talk to just because I feel like it’s the most challenging thing. So I totally got, I really appreciate that sense. Like there’s something about that that I really relate to. And it actually brings to something I wanted to ask you about, which is like your role, right, in all of this. And I because for me, this has been I totally relate to what you’re saying. You basically said, I’m like, oh, you’ve been talking to more people. Is that intentional? You’re like, yes, but it’s hard to say why. Well, we work with work so much with intuition. So much of what we do is intuitive. And so I try I try not to stop the intuition too much when it’s happening. You know? Yeah. Well, specifically what’s so interesting about this, because it’s so conversational, obviously, and is and I think this has been the case for me. I mean, anything that’s been good in my life has been some sense in which I’ve been intuitively responding to something. Something speaks to me. Right. And so I just kind of find myself following it because I’m really personally, I’m really bad at paying attention to anything that’s not interesting to me. Like I just. Oh, man. I’m so much the same. Right. No, I oh, yeah, I’ve been I’ve been, you know, I luckily I married to a woman, like a wonderful woman in that case, but I’ve always like I’ve never done anything which was going to make myself me secure in the world. I’ve always we both of us, we’ve always just done what we knew what the right thing was or the thing that really was was telling it was kind of shining in front of us that we had to we take a grasp of no matter where it led us. And so so, you know, yeah, it’s a great it’s better to live that way. It’s it’s riskier, but it’s it’s it’s more fulfilling. Oh, totally. Well, and then and then and then as you follow it, then the thing that you’ve been interested in. Kind of comes out and then I mean, that’s what Circulate was for me. And Circulate was the same thing. I’m just like, well, the moment like me and my friend noticed it, and we’re like, what is that? And then 10 years later, there’s a movement and a language trail and a methodology and and people it’s funny because people kind of ask me questions about it like. And I guess I can talk about it as if in retrospect, as if I knew what I was looking at, but actually, I didn’t know what I was looking at. But but it didn’t surprise me as it as it started to come into into flourishing. It’s like there was but. So there was a connection between guy, you know, that moment of where something shocked, like shined out to me and then the response to it. And then as it’s in retrospect, I can pin it all together on some level. But the connection between the guy that’s after it’s revealed and the guy before it’s revealed. Like, how the hell does it know? Like, what are we actually responding to? That’s always been the mystery to me. Yeah. But how do we know? I think you’re I think you’re right. I agree. Yeah. I think that that’s the one thing, you know, four years ago, when I just started making these YouTube videos, it was the same, you know, all of a sudden, I was kind of put into a situation and kind of thrust into a space that I had not planned for, that I had not thought that I would ever be in. And but it was that was it. Like, that was the path in front of me. And I thought, OK, let’s do this, you know, and not knowing exactly what the plan was. But then, as you said, as you start to move, then things start to clarify and then you you can start to understand, OK, so this is where I’m going. This is what I’m doing. And then you can fine tune, you know, what you’re what you’re doing. But I feel like now is a moment again where I feel like there’s there has now there’s something else. There’s something else kind of kind of calling. And so we’ll see. I don’t know. I don’t know where it’s going to leave me, but it’s OK. You know, it’s all good. I just love the way I love the way the matter of acts that thing that you said, like the way that you said that I’m like, have you been doing it intentionally? Yeah, I don’t know exactly why. But it’s just like, you know, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m this is that I don’t know this, but it’s really like, it’s really just like taking life as it becomes so fulfilling, and a reminder of not only what you’re doing but what you’re keeping your job, your profession. So trying to carrots, works, and I started to do the process, I started to workin a Pam Booth program thataramSTR hurt horwhere it didn’t exist in this part of the world. And today I have my safety31 tests, which is, like, workshop registration lab. I basically just started that program of But it’s like, I don’t know what I’ll be doing in five years and and it’s totally fine with me. I don’t I don’t have a It I have no problem in imagining that I’ll be somewhere completely somewhere else if I’m in the same place and it’s still Kind of it’s bringing life to the around me and it’s bringing life in in my own experience. Then then I’ll stay here. That’s fine right, right You know, there was a guy that you interviewed that wrote a book called is it to redemption? Guy he’s a historian. What’s that? Dominion the minion Holland. Yeah, I went I watched the interview Which I really liked and I got the book and I’ve been I’ve been listening to the book actually, which is really good But he’s a great writer. He’s such a good man. I I always kind of I’ve been getting to know to what degree How we I’ve always got I’ve always had a sense that that you know, we’re so deeply Christian, right in ways Whether or not we go to church or even believe in God or anything. You almost can’t be Western without Being Christian, right? It’s such a deep level, but he exemplifies it really clearly in a way that I can Like whoa, it’s like it’s so deep in in the difference and it’s interesting because I’ve actually been thinking about What it must have been like to be Christ right where Like that like what so what’s taken for granted at this point, right? of all of our conscience the way our conscience speaks to us the fact that like I Feel bad if I treat somebody like on a lower status Meanly or I see somebody else do it and like it’s this obvious that we shouldn’t do that and like we feel bad about like all the different pre-reflective responses to the world that seems so self-evident or something That that a lot of that stuff was not there and so I’m just imagining Like what the hell was it like to be Christ to hear yourself saying these things? Where there was no basis upon which for it to be even remotely intelligible like imagine yourself like saying Yeah, like what if they hit you turn the other cheek? Like how the hell is he even supposed to know what that means, right? Yeah, I think I think I see it the way that I would phrase it is more like to meet him like I I struggled to imagine I think that When you read the scripture you get a sense that that Christ knew exactly what he was doing compared to most people but I think that I The way that I would experience your the dilemma is more to say like if I had met Christ, you know 2,000 years ago. I don’t think I think most of us would not have recognized What was happening I think we would have been as dumbfounded as most people around and yeah maybe we might have been some of the people that thought that he should die because What he was doing was just like, you know, what is going on? You know what is happening? It looks like you’re gonna take over that you’re gonna take over politically, but then you keep talking about You know, I know loving your enemy and all these weird things that it’s just very odd And so I I really do think I have it’s weird because I have sympathy like I have a lot of sympathy for the Pharisees when I read scripture because everybody thinks they would have been one of the Disciples that say and and they wouldn’t have been like the Pharisees but Statistically, you wouldn’t have been oh man You probably definitely would have been like the Pharisee not only that but even the disciples sometimes you know what Christ was doing They’re kind of like, okay, so he said that now like what? What is that? I thought he said this before so what’s going on? They look they look confused all through Christ life until until the Until Pentecost and then at Pentecost it seems like everything kind of like they’re they see they finally see okay We’ve been doing this kind of we’ve been doing this thing for several years and now okay This is what it’s about Like this is what it’s supposed to be and then there’s and then there’s this scene where Peter stands up finally and like speaks to the thousands of people and has this like, you know this convincing and it’s because he Finally got it after you know more than three years like what exactly was going on that’s pretty crazy to think about Totally like so just to put yourself in Christ position We’re like I’m I’m wondering if it’s something similar than what we’re talking about. It’s like well like What are you doing? Are you doing? Are you saying that intentionally? Are you doing these interviews intentionally? Like well, yeah, like it is intentional like I’m not sure why Right this kind of Whatever that position is it’s something similar where it’s like it’s not predicated on something that’s completely Revealed in clear in some mental way But there’s an intuitive Sense and a response to something. It’s very very deep that you trust and I’m what I’m wondering if that’s a little bit. I Don’t know just putting myself in the story as I’ve been thinking about this I don’t really know that much about Christ’s life But like well the thing about Christ is that Especially the way Christians understand it is that he did have that knowledge he wasn’t like us kind of fumbling around because you can see that he There are certain scenes in Scripture that are there to show you that He knew exactly what he was doing Like he would take he would he would quote certain verses from Scripture like he would open up the Torah and then he would read Certain verses to help people understand what was going on and he was trying to and then when others didn’t understand he would tell them It’s like well, it’s like you fool. It’s like you don’t know you don’t even see what’s happening like you have it in front of you and you don’t see it and so Sometimes Christ is actually pretty harsh on the disciples because they’re more like us They’re more like fumbling along and trying to kind of get a sense whereas he he seemed to have had a kind of clarity That is difficult to right that’s difficult to Frame let’s say just did he have a basis did he ever reference or give any sense of the basis upon which he was His clarity was about yeah. Well, well that he was God mean besides that Yeah Besides that he was he was that he was the son of man that he was all these images of The manifestation of God in the world like, you know, that’s probably the the best Places where he kind of shows the clarity but yeah The fact that he he encompasses like for example, like there’s one there’s one place where people ask him like what you know What’s the law like what’s the and he says love? Love God and love your your neighbor as yourself and I mean that’s to show you what how much he understood because there’s three there’s hundreds of laws in Scripture and That law is not even in the like Ten Commandments But he says he takes this little law in in the adjunct of its in Leviticus or takes this little law He says this is the fullness of the law And so you can see that he’s actually changing He’s taking all the prescriptions and transforming them into modes of being into the highest mode of being Yeah, and so it’s like I mean he knew exactly what he was doing like he knew exactly what he was saying That position imagining like so at what point Did he start to unless it was instant unless he knew it like in the womb Like when did he know? That he was who he was. Do you know does he it doesn’t it doesn’t say in Scripture, but there are many stories like legends of Christ that he You know the idea that he was performing miracles even as a child There’s a there’s the verse there’s the place in Scripture where he’s in the temple at 12 years old and he’s teaching all the elders and so the Mary forgets Christ in the temple they they go to visit the temple and then They think that he’s with another family so they leave and then they just leave Jesus there For like a whole day until the next day and then when they come back they find they find Jesus Sitting there in the temple and teaching all the elders of Israel and and and and Then she says what do you like? I can’t believe it. We forgot you Why wouldn’t why didn’t you come with us, you know? And she’s a little bit of annoyed with him and he answers he says no, I’m doing the work of my father Hmm. And so that I think that that that text is there to show us that even at a very young age He knew what he was and he knew like what his role was. Yeah So there’s stories in all kinds of just a knowingness Hearing that what do you mean? I say that I’d be like, oh, yeah from your father, right? This it sounds like there’s just a deep knowingness Yeah, but there it’s there’s a lot of there’s are there are a lot of stories like that in other cultures as well the stories of You know the child that speaks when they’re born You know the the child that’s born full-grown you get that in the in the Dow for example The idea that Lao Tzu was born full-grown and you get it there’s a lot of there’s a lot of different traditions about children that are born full-grown and I think that all those traditions are there to talk about the the capacity that there are beings that that are manifesting something so fully that they they they do it from the from birth, you know And I think that that’s for sure. That’s how Christians understand Christ as being you know, the the full incarnation of The father and and that this was not something that developed in him, but was really you know Was there at the outset? Right. I just it’s just I don’t know if I’ve ever quite thought about it I mean I was I have been thinking about this but like now in this conversation I find myself putting myself imagining from within Christ at some point starting to know or Maybe just the moment I’m aware is the moment I’m how would I? One how would I know that and what would it be like to know that like? God that just sounds so intense Just imagine that you’re like going along and then you just find yourself knowing that you are God Yeah, I think I think I think that I try not to think of that that way because the thing about The thing about knowing is that you when the things you know, you know It’s not it’s not like you find yourself knowing in the sense that it’s not an accidental thing, you know Once you know something it’s like it’s a form of clarity It’s not it’s not a once it happened like to you. Let’s say you so you you can take you can take the moments You take the moments that you’ve had moments of clarity Where all of a sudden everything kind of lines up into place and all of a sudden, you know exactly Like you know exactly it’s as if you’re kind of one with your out with your outside and one with your inside and you know Exactly what you’re doing. You know exactly why you’re doing it’s like everything’s lined up and we I think most people Have these little moments like that like these little moments and I think that if you want to imagine Christ It’s to imagine that that’s all he is. Yeah that his whole existence is that clarity Which it can’t really imagine it but you can expand it out of your you can expand it out of your little moments of clarity. Let’s say Right I know that for me in those moments of like in that clarity, it’s usually Yeah, it’s I usually don’t represent those moments until someone kind of asks me about it Right, and then when I go to try to describe what I may be clear about I’ll have this experience of like having a difficult time putting into words But you’re right. There’s something that I I know that I can’t Account for so I would imagine it’s like but then imagining living your whole life from that place That’s amazing Yeah, and it it seems like if you read the if you follow the tradition It seems like it’s possible like if you look at uh, saints who live their whole life in prayer and you know live an aesthetic Take up an aesthetic life and really kind of sacrifice everything to to live in that clarity and that prayer in that self self denial of the passions and uh, and also embrace of love towards their neighbor then you meet Characters in the tradition that have that like there are these images these stories of saint seraphim of sorrow who’s a recent saint who’s a modern saint and uh No, he lived in the forest with a bear and you know, like he just all of it was just this almost mythological figure But one one day one of his disciples Was talking to him like someone who was trying to get some teaching from him um, and he kind of asked I forget what he asked when he asked something like I’d like to have a glimpse of What it can be like what life can be? You know what we can reach and then saint seraphim looked at him and then in before his very eyes saint seraphim became like a flame like a living flame And uh, and and he saw like who saint seraphim really was he saw this This this being that was completely burning, you know in god And and then it was just for a split second and then it was gone Like it was just like I saw through the veil let’s say at for a moment. And so it seems like those characters Exists even today like on mount athos. There are all these stories of contemporary elders who? Who you know? Who do things that we can’t that that people don’t believe are possible like, you know, they they they have all these powers or whatever And they they they commune in spirit together So that these monks who lives in caves who don’t who don’t talk to each other will nonetheless speak to each other in spirit and You know, they can tell someone oh, you know, uh remind so and so about about this thing that he told me yesterday And they’re like wait, you didn’t see him yesterday, but he did in this kind of Yeah This this this higher sphere, let’s say. Yeah, it’s funny. I never talk about this kind of stuff. You got me on a weird space Is this the kind of stuff you talk about with your brother I mean It’s the kind of no it’s the kind of stuff that I don’t talk about Especially that what I just said now because it’s the kind of thing which I think is secondary to what? Yeah, what is most important but it because it’s it looks kind of magical that it attracts attention and so it can it can I think it can sometimes take people astray Because they like the idea of people having powers and people having more And so they it’s almost like a science fiction version. So and I think it’s totally possible I don’t deny these things but I I don’t think that they’re that important. Yeah, totally Well, they’re kind of neat. Well, I think what i’m getting from this conversation is like as you’re talking about it I mean, there’s just these it’s it’s neato to get inside of it a bit right and like get the mystery of it like of Of of just the sense that that on some level i’m sure christ had a subjectivity, right? He had an experience he was having right but he had a knowing in which What’s really interesting to think about is how does he even represent that to himself when he pictured what he is? If it’s if i’m god when he thinks of himself As god I mean by definition. He probably doesn’t have a picture Right in his mind, right? Like these are like these are ways of kind of maybe getting at the mystery of it, right? We’re getting close to it. I that that’s what i’m experiencing as we’re talking Yeah I mean, I don’t know. I I think that those there’s a usually not the the avenues that I go on in terms of trying to Understand this stuff just because the the best It because it’s you can’t it’s hard to imagine what A higher form of consciousness is, you know, unless you experience it and so It it can become a bit arbitrary to cry to try to and so the only way for me to try to understand it is to compare let’s say the moments of Of focus and of clarity And of love that I have in my life compared to the moments where i’m Just a zombie sleepy sleepwalking through my existence And so it’s like when I if I can compare those two types of modes of experience Then then then that’s when I can say oh, okay So maybe there’s something like that but higher up like there’s even more and and I can I can that’s the only way that I can kind of imagine Uh the moreness of it, but I I don’t but I but yeah, but I don’t I don’t see it as uh Yeah Yeah, yeah, I think that’s the only way that I can really kind of peek into that mystery Well, you you know you mentioned something. I usually don’t like to come at it like this or it’s rare Because it has a tendency to have people think some you know, like something fantastical like and it’s not the best way of going Going about it, which is an awareness of that. There is a listening I would imagine that seems to presuppose a listening That you’re that you speak into or an awareness of people which I think starts to get into some of the just the questions I had about your You know your role so far in terms of You know being on youtube and talking about symbolism Like i’m just curious about what what is your like what what is my role? Yeah, right like who are you talking to like what what have you found out so far? Yeah. Well look I think I think that if I have a role I think that I kind of fell into it and that which is fine Which is totally fine. I think that I couldn’t have planned for it, but it seems like what i’m doing Is i’m offering? uh a ladder To people who who have been living in a kind of materialist reductionist world And need the few lower steps to to reach up and then you know kind of have a fuller more Let’s say enchanted vision of reality and so it’s so I it seems like that’s what i’ve been doing and I have I I have ways of talking to people that will awaken that intuition Yeah, and so I try to constantly look for so if I have a like you said my main strategy Which is it is a strategy is I always try to surprise people with meaning And so which is why I’ll I’ll when I talk about a subject I’ll I’ll try to find a an extremely high subject which is let’s say like some bible story or some you know Medieval architecture or something that is very high and then i’ll find an example Which is as low as possible like how you experience your coffee cup or how you you know Or some marvel movie or some some kind of low thing in order to to to jolt people’s Under to jolt people into an experience, you know It’s like a mini I always say I try to create mini zen coens like little mini ones where people go Oh, okay. Wait a minute I I hadn’t thought about that and then all of a sudden it connects two wires in their experience and then they have a little Spark so I would say like if if I do that then I’m happy like that’s pretty much What I what I would like to be doing Right, so to have people take those couple of steps where they can get an intuitive glimpse Of another world that their current the current step that they’re on like won’t allow them to see right exactly Right. Yeah, that’s a good way to understand it. Yeah, that’s a good way to understand it So so I think that that’s been that’s really been if I can kind of reduce what i’m doing to one thing I would say that that’s it and I also I also I think one of the other things i’m I i’m trying to do is to reinvigorate Christians who are Blase who are or think that this is just wrote like they they don’t see How much power is in? The the the story how much power is in the ritual how much power is in And so to kind of get people excited a little bit again about you know about the story of christ about the stories in scripture Um, and so I would say to me that’s the second thing i’m trying to do. Yeah Okay, so the other the other thing is is that there’s a whole world of people Who go to church, but there’s a little bit of that that they’re not awake necessarily to the livingness of the story And You want to like in some sense do something similar with them or they can they can become awake to the tradition that they’re actually inside of Yeah, and it seems it also seems to be the most of the people watching my videos seem to be young people Oh, you know like late 20s some people that are like either mid 20s to early 30s People who are either in college or just finished college and have had to kind of deal with all that Intellectual pressure that you go through when you go to university, you know, especially if you go in a liberal arts world and it’s like they they they’re looking also for ways to Explain or to give strength to something that they might feel intuitively and so They have an intuition about something but then they don’t necessarily have the tools to To fully expound it and so and so I think people are grateful to have those tools I think that’s one of the things jordan peterson did too Is that he was giving ways of and john revecke man john revecke has been amazing for that where he gives you words And tools that you can say you can talk about Combinatorial explosion because all of a sudden you have a term and then you can explain the term But once you’ve explained it to someone they understand what it is And so then you can kind of move on and then you can talk about relevance realization like that’s an awesome term to help people kind of Step into something that they they maybe they don’t have access to the middle So I think i’m doing something similar but with images and analogies helping people see the patterns that they haven’t seen yet Totally. Well, you know, I think I had I had an experience. Um I’m not sure if I got your role. I I thought I said to my wife in this moment, right? I was like, oh, I think i’m really getting jonathan’s role here. Um But I think I think it is gotten symbolism too. I’m not sure but like maybe both are the same That’s kind of a cool position to be in right where you begin get symbolism is getting your role. That’s kind of a cool place I would imagine being you. Um, but it was a there was a moment actually where uh, You know a lot of the a lot of the apocalypse started happening and but I wasn’t quite I wasn’t quite getting it totally it all just started it still looked like the same thing to me And then I was watching one night I think it may have been A day or I was just finding out about the the whole the whole the guy the the cop that killed the person On tv, right? Yeah Somewhere around there and then there are three hurricanes and then like 20 riots or something like that and the and the plague right all all happening at once I was watching the news and something about For some reason if the news just reached out and it went it hit it hit me. I was like Well, wait a minute. No, we’re actually this is a different It felt like time itself had changed right? Like this is a different we’re in a different temporality Like that’s how I would I would put it but I didn’t I wasn’t left the inside didn’t leave me with any sense of orientation right, I was like Everything that I could grab on to to try to understand it didn’t quite hold And then a few days later, I was listening. I was watching your videos and I think it was the first video or two after That where you actually came out and talked about the actual Event you talked about that you took your time with it, right because it took something to really understand it But when you when you explained when you especially when you explained the phenomena of all of us watching Right this man get killed right and the and and that you explained the phenomena of how we were identified with the cop We were identified with the person being killed And the carcass And all the symbolism that you put around it and you explicitly said like hey, sorry guys And this is you also and you also talked about the fall of the west In the burning of the statues and you gave that great explanation. I love this explanation Like you move into a house and there’s still the past family still has their pictures up you’re like, no, you’re gonna want to take them down it was like I just Was like that’s so that’s so true. Um And it and you said hey guys, listen, i’m sorry. I don’t have any I don’t have any solutions All I can do is kind of articulate what I think is maybe happening But there was this way where? That I I felt like after that I found myself in a place inside of it And I was like I felt myself being able to grip onto something Um That was a bit ecstatic and very very orienting and I remember I was like, oh shit like this is I looked at my my wife reanna. I was like, I think this is this is his role Whatever it is. He’s doing. I think he just did it Oh, well good. Thank you. Well, i’m happy that I that I kind of helped you get some clarity in that in the strange moment It’s good. It’s it’s been this year. The thing about what’s happening is that Time is really accelerating and so the shifts in The shifts that you felt is kind of temporal shift for this shift of worlds Like as if the ground is moving underneath you. Yeah, it’s usually something that would happen like every Few hundred years but now it’s happening every few years And so, you know, I felt it happen at the last in 2016 I felt it happen and now and now i’m feeling it happen And so it’s like four years is a short time for the world to change so much in terms of the whole Ground kind of shifting underneath you for people who are intuitive. It’s very very Existentially difficult because you feel it like you’ve really it’s like it stops you from sleeping and you feel it That you feel like the world is changing and it’s almost like it’s uh, you know You’re like you’re tied to a giant gear and it’s like stretching you, you know Um, and so so I I understand what you’re saying and so I feel it very much so Yeah, and uh, and so I I also try to so hopefully if we can at least help people feel the Despair which goes with that or you know, at least if people understand what’s going on then even though you can’t stop it Yeah, you don’t feel just falling like you don’t feel like you’re just falling like at least there seems to be Yeah, some frame around what’s happening for you to understand. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, there’s a certain there’s that’s an also a very interesting thing in itself of like Like if I don’t have a frame around what’s happening if there’s no if there’s no place for me to kind of get a handle on something Like what I get a handle on may just actually what I got a handle on is that there is no handle right, maybe that’s the thing that I got my handle on but there is this element of and I don’t know where I stand in a lot in in in this whole issue because I see Because I really feel the same thing that you’re talking about of where I’m like, whoa, like there’s weird. There’s like existential changes that are happening at such a level, right? That used to take thousands of years to happen and they’re just boom boom boom happening closer and closer like and I For me, there’s really this element of like well, i’m on a ride here. I don’t know exactly what i’m riding right, but like i’m on a ride and And when I hear people respond to like right what like What did you just Yeah, I oh man it I I know but I I the thing is the thing is that this ride has been going for a while like The ride has been lasting a few centuries. Now the thing we don’t realize is that the ride slowed down After you know the tens and tens and tens of millions of people that were slaughtered in world war ii. So because world war ii ended in a Such a mass carnage and an and two nuclear explosions Then it’s as if the rides slow down For one two generations, but that’s it. It’s it’s starting up again It’s the same ride that brought the world into the revolutions. Uh after the enlightenment and so And so it’s it’s only we just had we just were fortunate to be in a pause, you know after mass slaughter But so it’s not pretty what’s happened on the horizon is not uh, i’m smiling as I say it I always laugh in the worst moments, but it’s not it’s not pretty we it’s it’s the yeah well, I think well the laughter actually is I mean there’s there’s something into in the laughter that I think is revealing About what we’re facing. I’m not exactly sure why this is what I was just trying to get it I haven’t been able to quite put my finger on it Because when I see people talk about the world and the time In a way, that’s like has a sense of urgency and it’s good nature of trying to It’s like almost like trying to take existence and turn it into a problem to solve right there’s a I mean, I appreciate the impulse but I just get this sense. I’m like I’m like this is No, we’re inside of something like it seems like Like it seems like a huge category mistake. You know what I’m saying? Like the history exactly that’s such a great way to put it It seems like there’s a category area going on here pretty big one. Like you think you’re gonna stop existence Okay, that’s a that’s a little bit of a problem. No, I totally I totally agree with you and and you can see the arrogance of the Like you can see the errands arrogance of the systems of of of mass control and of mass information like there’s they really do believe That they’re going to get there like they’re going to they believe that they’re moving in that direction And so it’s a tower of babble moment. It really is And that story also doesn’t doesn’t end well, you know, right and there’s something for me about Those handles that like it well, I think I would put it like this I think it’s maybe maybe I mean we could use heidegger’s help here because it’s it’s there’s the there’s the quality of truth There’s a truthness of like that sense where he talks about it’s not correct, right? It’s Well, it’s not not correct. It’s also correct, but there’s a there’s an element of that um That which was concealed is revealed, right? There’s truthness or the happeningness of truth, which has a kind of transcendence to it like even if you Even if what gets revealed is that you’re in hell and you’re going to be in hell for the next 20, you know, whatever Right. There is something that laughs and there’s a Stasis there which I think has to do with I don’t know is it have to do with just Having a semblance of of being in truth Yeah, well And there’s a list there is like there is this there’s like I think you’re you’re right in the sense that the disclosure itself like this this this capacity to To kind of get a sense to see the pattern to get a sense of what’s happening even if what it’s what is happening is Is horrible? uh It it does offer you a kind of a small little ecstasy or a small little mystical mystical experience and uh and a sense of freedom within it too You know, it’s because you you you all of a sudden you pull back and you see it come together, right? You have this This this revelation and you know christ talks about how He talks about how all all must be revealed and he it seems like christ inaugurated this process where things would just be revealed one after the other and The revelation is not positive. I think that I think that it’s always like a mix of both. So There’s there are aspects of the this this disclosure of the world which is positive and there’s disclosure aspect of it, which is a scandal and so as as Let’s say christianity revealed the highest mystery of theosis of the the purpose of creation of as being Becoming one with god. It’s like also what is going to be revealed is all our perversity all our Our all our passions in their you know In their worst forms of desire to control of a desire to to to live only for pleasure all of this stuff That is now rampant in our society. It’s kind of like those two had to happen. It’s like it had to happen It has to it has to show itself um, yeah Yeah Is it the showing? Right. Well, it’s those little ecstasies They kind of give a sense of freedom I think also when I got I think this starts to get in some of my questions about symbolism, right? So when I first started watching watching you I was There was a sense in which I was I was I was familiar with the with the language that you spoke I was familiar with what you were talking about because I I had obsessively read young when I was in high school um And so I was very familiar with the way he talked about like symbolism, right in the in In the yungian way that he did But what I think when I really but there was something different about the way you were talking about it, right Than than he was yeah, because I don’t I don’t I I on the other hand don’t read you. Yeah Believe me, but it’s just true. I don’t know. I don’t think you’d like them No, like I don’t really know. I think you’d find it really I think you would if you read young I’m imagining like if you read young it’s like it’d be interesting. I don’t think it would really be compelling. Um Because you’d be he has some implicit Horizons that I think are Well, it’s what makes your work your work to me and not young’s is actually when it came to this right and I think this starts to speak to the Also, these moments of ecstasy are these moments of releasement right and and I want to talk about what’s good about that, right? um When you said no, it’s like I think it’s when you talked about the symbol, you know I think you were looking it was in some video where you were talking about the symbol of something and he said look the symbol is actually um The symbol is is one of the ways or the that picture is one of the ways that the pattern obstantiates itself Right that the picture isn’t the symbol right the the the picture it just happened I got this sense that you didn’t say this but I got the sense. It’s like it’s a condensed It brought all the pieces enough in this like a small enough space time Right picture such that you could see the whole pattern in front of you, but it itself is just an obstantiation in the pattern That happens in reality in over longer time frames that if you could understand it you could see those patterns Yeah, that’s a good way to understand it that is that the the symbols that appear to us more most clearly are those that are the most Uh condensed you could say like you said that they that they the word symbol actually means means two things that are thrown together and so There’s this idea that symbolism itself is Bringing together of elements and so that you see them as one you see the pattern or the ordering of it um, and so and so the symbols the more proper symbols, you know, let’s say like an icon or you know a church building or Something which is which we tend to think as symbolic rather than you know, your everyday life Which is also symbolic, but let’s say the liturgical space or the sacred spaces they condense it in in a manner, which is more Accessible or makes it accessible to us So so we we can kind of get it once you see the pattern then it it actually then if you’re sensitive, then it’ll start to to uh, Let’s say bleed out into other aspects of your reality and then you realize that hey, you know My body is also made that way and a relationship with others also has that Has similar patterns and you know our societies and our stories all of it is actually Manifesting these these sacred patterns to a certain extent. Yeah, and so the symbol Is a is a is one instant of the pattern right like a little incarnation of a of a of a of an essence or a yeah And so then that’s when I think that’s when I really got it’s like oh you’re talking about you’re actually talking about reality Oh, yeah That might be the difference between me and you Yeah, it’s not just psychological Yeah And so it really is the psychological is part of it for sure your psyche also has that shape and it’s really important because because we are human beings our logos That they are we are we have reason and we we have consciousness Therefore we are kind of we are the place where symbolism actually kind of happens, but it’s nonetheless Is also happening in the world because we are the we’re like the funnel through which the world, you know has meaning Uh, and this is something which i’m not making up like this is something that I take from the church fathers, especially St. Maximus the confessor this idea that demand is the might is the ultimate microcosm And that the entire cosmos, you know condenses into into the human person um, and it’s we can understand it in a in a you can use Cognitive cogsight to now to understand it or can use theory of meaning and and the problem of of Of emanation and complexity to now see that yes conscious beings are like the funnel through which this potentiality that’s out there it’s kind of indefinite potentiality comes in and then you know becomes uh Becomes meaning becomes becomes a world, right? Okay, so so I want to slow down there a little bit so that the the You just said a bunch right there. So the yeah, sorry the the the infinite potential the endless potential comes in And what you’re saying is that the psyche? You could say is the place That it that the psyche Is the place where that potential gathers? into a world I mean, it’s not just the psyche. It’s the person it’s more embodied than just the psyche. It’s But but it is the person like the human person Both in terms of mind but also in terms of acting out in the world That’s why it’s the it’s pest it’s it’s it’s a perspective You know, you know and jordan talks about this all the time where the categories of being are actually categories of action They’re not static categories the way even the way that playdo tended to tend to think of uh, Of forms there’s something off about that, you know say maximus the confessor talks about how The idea the idea of things or the form and you know this the essence the way that the platon has talked about are actually also the end of things Those two things together so he kind of takes he takes a lot of airstatelian categories in platonic jams him into this thing Which is logos which is it’s also the reason the purpose and that makes it that brings it into the the human Back into the human person because those purposes come into Come out come out of us or join in us, you know And so the reason why we have a category called rock is a human reason, but it’s also totally objective It’s not a subjective reason. It’s objective, but it’s a human reason It joins into us I don’t know if that makes sense. That makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. Like it makes a lot of sense to me It’s a it’s really cool. It’s it’s just really it’s it’s it’s it’s It it almost it’s so cool. It’s so so It’s so Yeah, it’s so there’s something about it so constituting like I get this sense of as we’re talking about it Like the sense of it is it’s like oh, it’s like we’re talking about what constitutes And everything’s constituted in some level right the contige constituents of something that is Feels like and this is one of the things i’ve always really I mean this is what philosophy is really you know, I think that specifically like heidegger and yeah, we’re still ponte and You know, I didn’t quite exactly understand why the hell I started reading those guys, right? Like, you know They’re like early 20s Um, because I didn’t understand anything that I was reading but like but there was something that that was being shown Especially heidegger. So there are some passages in heidegger, which i’m sure he doesn’t even understand like i’m pretty sure Yeah, but there are some passages in heidegger that are pure gold like they he definitely had an intuition about Right about this the way the world shows itself to us and uh, and I think that he opens a door towards even though in a way he was not a He was he was almost like he was very much a modernist and he was very much trying to Deal with some of the problems of materialism and all of this, but I think that he opens a door which can then Bring us take us out of it. And so I I really that’s why I use heidegger. I use them implicitly. I don’t I do quote him sometimes explicitly but I there is a heidegger Program running in my mind as well. I have a few programs running and that’s one of them for sure. It’s heidegger Yeah, totally. Well, it’s like it’s uh And it is a very like when you talk about symbolism, right in the patterns the way it lays itself out, right in the logos, right the gathering laying Right the thing that kind of this sense of the I mean, that’s really this one thing for me too Is just kind of really getting that no it’s like anything one Any any perception that you have is a perception to the degree that’s intelligible to you Right and to the degree it’s intelligent means it is gathered in its intelligibility and what you experience actually is it’s Its intelligibility and its being are the same the same thing, right That’s right. And that’s that that’s really the key and the fact that you get that is Is so important so few people Get there and and you know, I was talking to some atheist recently and you know, uh, like they mentioned don hoffman, for example And and you can see it’s everybody has that problem Which is that even though they start to perceive the necessity of something like consciousness for the necessity of intelligences they always still want to posit like some World out there that another world like some other world that’s out there. That’s not The one that we’re that we’re having The experience of and it’s like how do you how can you posit that and like because you’re still there like you’re you’re still It’s like a weird thing where you you have to self-deny And so it’s almost like uh, there’s the there’s a falseness to that uh, and so I think it’s much better I think the phenomenological perspective is much better because it it says this is it like this is the there is no other world besides the world that we encounter and we can we can make abstractions and we can create abstract Constructions out of it things like things like science things like, you know The solar system or atoms and all of this stuff, but it still happens within the frame of our immediate of this this design right of this this care that you that you perceive that you that you things Lay themselves out and manifest appear to you because you care about them and you can’t avoid it and it is relevance realization It’s like you can’t avoid that. Yeah. Yeah And that’s the thing about it is really all the way down I like how kind of like gets at that like being in the world is is you’re not a being that then cares Like you’re the fact that you’re a being is already a You are a kind of care homeless, right? You that’s how the It’s that care that gathers The facts to show up in the particular as you do science and all that kind of stuff is all downstream from Right this primordial kind of sense of care Yeah, yeah We that see that kind of that that sense of really getting symbolism When did that happen for you? Yeah, it’s a it’s a strange thing it’s a because it’s not just me it’s my brother and I both at the same time we uh about that Yeah, we I I would say that In our 20s, we were both kind of on different paths and he was studying math computer science And I was studying art We’re close like a year and a half away from each other. So we’re kind of we’re always we’ve been very close to be younger and Sorry, are you younger or older? I’m older. Yeah, I’m a year and a half older than he is and so we We started I started reading postmodern philosophers. I was reading Jacques Derrida and I was reading boudrillard. I was reading uh, You know just the the whole crew. Um, I was Yeah, roland bach wrote a little book called mythologies which really had a big impact on me. Just really quick So what had you actually read those? What was it part of art school or like what had you it was art school that kind of pushed me in that direction? Because the I took I took a few philosophies of art classes and so they were having us read these authors Um, I went to it’s like once dude, so i’m i’m familiar with art school. I moved to san francisco to go to art school Yeah, that’s when I learned about heidegger and I learned about jacques derrida and then that took me on a like a road of my Own and that’s when I started reading. Um boudrillard and uh roland bach And I remember roland bach had a little book called mythologies Where he was trying to show the mythological patterns in different social, uh, manifestations Um, and he was doing it as a way to mock them like not as a way to mock them But as a way to try to deconstruct them, but I remember leaving Reading those books and thinking this is awesome Right, like it’s all I like I didn’t see it as something like a marxist desire to destroy these patterns. I thought This is awesome. And and so and I remember reading. Um portrait of an artist and uh being really Hit by joyce’s use of pattern and so I was like I was in the modern like in the modern world and um And so then I became interested in trying to create symbolic languages and when in art school I became pretty much obsessed with anselm keifer who’s a german artist who? Who does these kind of these he he he used his imagery and he creates kind of symbolic references within his he uses kind of This intertextual language within his paintings and stuff Referencing mythological characters and and all of that And so I was kind of trying to do it on my own and And it just wasn’t working out and at the same time my brother was reading, uh discovering rabbinic Literature so he had when he was 16. He decided to learn hebrew on his own and then started reading. Uh, you know rabbinic literature and mystical judaism So we kind of had discussions and discussions and discussions and because you know We just talk every day for hours and hours and hours and we kind of created Also even this like weird hermetic language that if you would listen to a conversation of ours you you just wouldn’t understand what we were talking about um And uh, and then both of us he discovered this author first an author’s name is rené guénon. He’s a french traditionalist And uh when he read, uh guénon He said my brother said you have to read this like this This is what we’ve been looking for for years like we’ve been looking for this forever And so when I read guénon it really reshaped my thinking, you know, he He was he there’s a lot of problems with that author like serious problems. That’s why I don’t quote him Uh too much because he has a lot a lot of remainder of occultism in his work and there’s a lot of weird associations he’s had But nonetheless his insight into symbolism was just beyond anything i’d ever seen So he wrote a book called uh called um What is it the it’s because I have it in french, uh, the the symbols of sacred science He wrote a book called the great triad. He had several books where he he worked out these these symbolic patterns and um And then so I kind of was trained that way and then I started to read the church fathers and saw that no It’s all there in christianity. It’s all there in the fathers in saint gregor of nissa I found the fathers that really I felt had Had that intuition And uh, yeah and all that led me to become orthodox right it’s gonna be maximus and father of saint gregor of nissa Santa from the syrian all the new you guys are really Yeah Yeah, all the neo-plutonic i just started reading um um st maximus, uh the cosmic um What is cosmic mystery? Yeah. Yeah just started Yeah It’s a nice little book because they they they they’ve chosen the text and so they they kind of chose it the right They really chose the right text some of those some of those are just Just blow you away some of these because they’re so short and he just kind of says things and it just Yeah gets you. Yeah, he does something. He seems like saying maximus is he’s At least when I think like when I At least the way it occurs to me like when I look at just all the stuff like saint maximus like stands out with something I don’t know exactly what it is But there’s something he gets or some or a way he says it or a place he’s standing that just seems to be Fundamental that your experience with them or what’s oh, yeah I think that he offers up gold and uh, and you have to be careful because he does it in very succinct way And so and so you have to be careful because you can go you can miss it And so you have to read like his little text like his little ambiguous or his little You have to just kind of take your time and then read every sentence from of that Of that text and just kind of slow down because he’s kind of he’s not he’s not gonna start blabbing He’s really gonna give it to you in these these very powerful. Um Images and so so he’s definitely yeah he’s I mean if you once you’ve read saint maximus and you kind of understood what he talks about then Then then a lot of I think it’s easier to know that that I the things i’m talking about i’m not taking it out of my own imagination You know, it’s like I will take same maximus and I will definitely apply Some of the patterns the things that he didn’t apply like i’ll interpret things that he didn’t interpret But the main the main thrust of his vision of this union of heaven and earth and you know All of this and and then san nephron especially like the mountain all of these things I take from from these fathers, so I’m interested. So you so you are so so basically like you were in art school, right? And then you started getting assigned these books and you started cracking them open and you’re like this is this is Yeah, you’re reading their symbology and their distinctions, right now before that was was your like Did you have much of an intellectual life before that like what was your relationship to all this stuff before Before well, I mean my father my father was a very intelligent thoughtful person And so in our house you know curiosity and discussion was encouraged and we we definitely Always saw both my brother and I always saw my father as a very intelligent and thoughtful person And I I have several memories of my father piercing through the appearances like where He sees things happening and then you know And then he says something to us and and I can see that he kind of see through the veils, you know um, and so I think that he he there definitely a legacy coming from him in terms of uh, in terms of a desire to kind of to go further and to see through the appearances you could say um But it’s definitely in university like most people it’s university that that really kind of forces you to deal with this stuff because they kind of You know, it’s a it’s a it’s a really high you know really intense moment of thought and end of discussion and of uh, You know of exploration you have time to read you have you don’t have a lot of words in life And so it really is a good time for for that. It must have been just an amazing time like You with it was existentially difficult though because it was a Because it it was this crisis because I grew up in an evangelical world. And so it was a crisis for me because I couldn’t reconcile What I was discovering and the the powerful imagery and the powerful patterns I was discovering I was struggling to reconcile it with um the my surrounding and so You mean at art school or I mean just a man art school and then later discovering these symbolic thinkers even in art school like I was while I was in art school. I was I was uh writing and directing these plays Um in the kind of evangelical world and so these huge like massive productions with like 30 people and there was music and And uh, and so I was directing these these plays the last play I wrote man it is like I don’t think I don’t i’m surprised even put it on because it was it was it was really I was taking all of this stuff That I was dealing with Uh, it was about the bronze serpent and the idea of like casting down idols But building idols and it was about an architect whose buildings fall down and so you had this massive sandbox on the stage and uh, And and then you would have this person build up these things and they would always fall And so and so it was like this whole like trying to deal with the problem of post-modernism Uh, it’s like I I can’t believe they even put it on but nonetheless they did and so you could feel like in that Play that I was struggling that I was like just struggling to kind of To fit it all together, you know, because yeah, I was being ripped apart in a way and it’s really the discovery of orthodoxy and just the traditional church fathers which were finally a A reconciliation for me because I think that without that I probably at some point might have stopped being a christian because You know, it’s like I was I always loved christ I knew that I belonged to christ But then I looked around me and I felt like what I was seeing was extremely, uh superficial right and And what were the things that you’re kind of seeing was it was it like the event like how is evangelistic? Christianity different than orthodox or Or things or things that involved it like the older church fathers Like is that kind of what started to rip apart or part of what yeah for sure because there’s a there’s like uh, there’s something arbitrary about the way that scripture is presented and it has to do with At least in the it’s not all these churches. They’re just the where ones I grew up in and it didn’t help that Like i’ll blame my father It didn’t help that my father was really smart and was actually questioning and always trying to peer through and so at the same time Being in a situation where people Would talk about the bible as if it’s It’s like this and it’s also because they were so scientific and materialist materialist minded and so and so then they would talk about scripture as if it’s like as if they’re describing a car and and uh And it’s like here are the parts and this is how it works, right? It’s like, okay, so adam and eve sinned in the garden. They did something bad And so in order to solve that problem then god, you know sent jesus to die to in their place And it’s like it’s like it’s like it’s like a two equals two equals four And then then because of that now if you believe in that then you go to heaven when you die and it’s like that really It is not enough. It’s just not enough. It’s just not i’m sorry. It’s just not yeah, and so So when I started to see like when I let’s like when I started to see that the pattern of Genesis is the same as the pattern of moses crossing the red sea And it’s like but then no one around me wanted to acknowledge that because they felt like if they acknowledge that they were they were somehow damaging the authenticity the material authenticity of the story it’s as if if I can show that there’s a pattern in the in the story Then I am somehow saying that it’s just a story Right that it’s not actually something that happened because things that happen in the world don’t have patterns, which is obviously not true um, but it’s weird because I think that we’re we’re in a different space now even then when I converted to orthodoxy So for example, like there’s an amazing uh group of guys called the bible project and they’re doing these videos on On uh on the bible and it’s and it’s like if there’s full They all of a sudden they have these perceptions of all these patterns in this this The way that the text is constructed everything and i’m thinking okay I think we might be in a different space now than what I was let’s say 20 years ago when I would have heard it Right, right. I appreciate really appreciate what you said about like it was it was actually the like the post monitors that really opened all this up right in a big way, right and also I also I also appreciated what you said about your dad I mean actually my dad’s kind of my dad has something in him like that but like some of the best moments with my dad are actually moments where he He said something that was just piercing in revealing of something right like those are Those are actually now you said I haven’t really thought about it that Precisely before but now I think about some of the best moments My dad were always ones where he’d say something that like where he would reduce The entire universe of my experience down to a like a bumper sticker that it kind of opened it up again or something Right, like yeah like an aphorism that would contain it something like that. Yeah, I remote. Yeah, and there’s a certain sense in which Yeah, I think actually it’s funny I never really thought about with my dad but like that’s That there’s something about those moments that I think taught me to listen In some way it like Yeah, in some way I just I mean I can feel that it kind of in my body as i’m talking about this kind of just open Like that you can do that with your you can go from you can take your own experience, right? And like you can somehow see all of reality in your whole experience In a way that has you relate differently to your experience. You can live that way Like I think my dad had these yeah, so I I think I Sympathetically appreciate what you said about your dad, right? I mean, we’re very fortunate. I think you know, uh, yeah and like in my family My family really fostered also just The capacity to do the thing that you’re going to do, you know, and that was something that was really important in my family So my my youngest brother was actually a professional skateboarder for several years He was you know, he lived in california, yeah, he lived in he lived in long beach did that whole thing for for several years and uh, and then matthew who is more kind of a Mathematician type and developed his symbolic thinking, you know almost like a like a pure science and then I am more the artist you know, I my vision my approach is simply is more lyrical and kind of messier than my brother because matthew is like Matthew shoots like arrows, you know his His English chapter like three pages and they’re like, sorry, he’s the one that wrote the book right about like he wrote he wrote Uh, yes the language of creation. Yeah, I think that one is goes right to it I could never write a book like that, you know, because He just shoots like I tell people go slow because it’s a kind of like reading sam axs where like he he there’s no Mincing of words in there, you know, there’s nothing extra even the footnotes like I tell people the best stuff’s in the footnotes They’re there for a reason don’t miss them So when you were going through it with it So there was the part where it was incredible when you’re in college, right? Well, so it’s like the logos is opening up in this completely different way but then it was opening up to a degree where you couldn’t make sense of Like your current experience and your past experience without it feeling threatened right in some way It was hard to it was hard to join all of it together and also Because I was an artist and and I was you know, I I grew up in a baptist church Which although not openly hostile to visual art is at least That’s implicitly hostile to visual art. And so and so it just wasn’t working. It just wasn’t fitting together. And so at and and I feel like Yeah, i’m uh I’m happy of of how things happened and how things kind of Yeah brought me to where to where I am and then when and then the the crisis part of it like Was that when you um Did it start to resolve when you found it in the church fathers as you’re talking about? Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah When when I read, you know, like when I read san d’oreneas, for example, it’s like san d’oreneas He’s really back there I mean, he’s one of the early fathers and and he has san d’oreneas has a very powerful symbolic understanding He the thing is that it’s not it’s hard because his writing he he just drops these things In his writings you can’t it’s not like when people ask me like where in san d’oreneas I’m like, I don’t remember because it’s it’s not like he’s written about it It just kind of all of a sudden you’re reading versus heresies and then like this thing drops like this this this massive knowledge drops um, and so I when I read early fathers like san d’oreneas and uh, you know even St clement of rome, for example, I thought okay, man, there’s something missing. This is there You know, this is it was all there and then it kind of went away And I got very very excited. Like I was really excited To read to read the church fathers. I was devouring, you know, like sangro when I read life of moses I was just yeah, it’s like where has this been all my life, you know, this is so amazing Wow So i’m just I want to get I want to just kind of get that because I think I just kind of got a little bit So it’s like There’s the way where the patterns actually had everything like erupt It’s like ecstatic on one level, but then kind of also Questions everything and then you and it was an after-art school that you found Yeah, it was after Right. Yeah, and the thing the thing also the thing the positive thing about growing up in a protestant church like a really positive thing Is that the fact that they really focus on the bible? Means that you know the stuff so it’s like I had the stories The stories were stored in my memory like I knew the bible stories like I knew the scripture I knew what christ said I knew what st paul said And so but it was there in almost like a latent form and then all of a sudden when I started to see the the patterns then it was like It’s as if someone like someone opened up the curtain To my past experience and then just connected it all together, right? Because it’s as if it’s it’s almost like you’re watching a movie You’re watching a movie that has a that has a surprise ending you’re watching the movie and you’re kind of like, okay This is okay. You know, I get it. I get it. I get it And then all of a sudden they show you something that reveals the whole thing from the beginning and so that was my experience It was like Because I had it all there. It’s not like I was learning new things It was just connecting things that I already knew and so to me that was probably the most intense like let’s say the most intense, uh moments of kind of ecstasy where these moments where all of a sudden It’s something I’ve known since I was eight years old all of a sudden just kind of smashed together And then it shines like it becomes bright, you know, I don’t know what else to say. Yeah. Yeah, I totally get it Totally get it’s funny like when he said about the latent right it’s like back there there Stories that like, you know in the back of your hand. They’re just part of the background And then you’re looking and everything’s like ripping apart and but it’s luminous but yet it’s threatening and then And then all of a sudden you look back and then your own history it’s god. That’s so interesting like your own Floor reveals itself to you, but it’s like it’s not new Yeah, yeah, you’re right. It’s not new information amazing that’s really amazing to Hear to imagine Yeah, it’s funny. You you gotta be like talking about my myself so much I’m not used to doing that like it’s I feel like i’m giving my testimony here. Oh, it’s becoming a little embarrassing Yeah, yeah, this is where my curiosity is because it because I could always feel I can always feel your videos. It’s like I look like the only reason that you’re talking about all this stuff is because you are it’s part of your experience, right? Like I just have always had these questions about like in what ways are part of your experience You’ve mentioned a few of these things, right? So it’s us. I’m just these things i’ve been curious about right because I know that for me, it’s like these kinds of my life is defined by these my own version of these kinds of things where it’s like Right like moments where i’m in hell and it all looks like it’s going to go over and then something happens and then it connects to everything else and then like your whole history makes sense and like it’s it’s um Through you know, it’s funny and actually It Part of it for me and i’ve always had a hot bed not having I don’t know if i’ve been able to communicate this I haven’t been satisfied with the way i’ve been able to communicate this How how when you read something right when you read heidegger, right, right so You read a text that’s like You sense that something’s there you sense it like but it’s just beyond What you know, and then there’s the act of reading it, right? which is and I think this has something to do with my learning disability and i’m dyslexic and stuff like that, but That there’s a way of getting into this information if you want to call it information or knowledge, right? And then if you practice reading it that you look up From the book and then you start to see It somehow like is what I felt like with heidegger without knowing it heidegger was teaching me how to see Yeah That’s what it was especially heidegger like of all people it’s as if you to understand heidegger you have to You have to enact it. It’s not just It you can’t just be like a mental understanding, right? You know, and I think that also matthew’s book That’s how he wanted to write it It’s like he wanted to write it in a way that this is going to make sense when you apply it not when you’re not Just when you’re reading it has to find body um, and I agree I think that that’s that’s that’s that especially someone like heidegger It’s like you really have to You lift your eyes up and all of a sudden it’s changed you and you don’t totally understand Why you know or how yeah? Like yeah for me it was I mean, I really didn’t have any idea Because we what was happening is right at the time that like circling started to happen, right? Um Was the same time when I started reading a friend of mine had a book on heidegger and started talking about being and i’m like and I just at first it just glowed and so I just followed it and At the time we lived in serb cisco. I lived in serb cisco. I was right down down the hill from the from the art institute And um, they had barns and nobles across the street And I was a poor student so i’d go in there. No one like, you know bought the heidegger books, right? So i’d go in there and I would just like have the whole library to myself and I’d go in there drink Drink coffee and read being in time. I have no idea what I had just read I remember I think I was reading being in time for two months before I knew what dasein actually meant all right, so but the uh, uh But I didn’t really know what the connection was between that and circling until two two and a half years later, right when Because I would read and then I go circle on the beach and in our courses and all these different ways that we do that right and I go back and forth back and forth and then so like some at some point I overheard the The the style of the language that came out of all of that as it started to become like a thing which I have mixed feelings about its thingliness, but like um When he started talking about oh getting your world Oh a world and background and foreground and I started to notice that it started to make its way in the into the lingo of of of the practice and then I heard it other people talk about it and I was like Oh, wait a minute. This is the same. This is heideggerian speak and i’m like, oh very funny, right? This this kind of so there’s something about a little bit of what you’re talking about that’s familiar to me, right? like it gets you at it gets you at a level that’s That you don’t necessarily understand at the time that you’re learning what you’re learning Right until it becomes manifest in your perception somehow or in the way that your experience Lays itself out to you and shows itself to you um, yeah, yeah, no that makes like that really happened in a big way and that that was actually the way that you Stepped into your the orthodox path, right? No, definitely. I think I think it happened a little bit. It happened a bit before that. I even found orthodoxy because at first I was Sad because I I was like, oh here it is and the fathers here it is But then it’s gone like it’s it’s nowhere the same with the art like when I discovered medieval art and the how patterned it was And just how it was this amazing Intertextual, you know algebra of language and I thought wow, this is amazing when it’s gone like it’s it’s all gone now and that and it’s in reading And discovering the orthodox church and realizing that it was all still alive in the orthodox church is is one of the things that made me Say, okay. Well, this is it like I Because I you know to be an icon to kind of dive into the language of iconography You could do it in an archaeological way But then that’s not the point right right if we’re talking about these Ways of embodying and these ways of existing in the world that if I’m going to study an ancient language like an archaeologist And I’m alienating myself constantly but I wanted to be in the language And so I had to kind of find a path where I could do that and and and and that’s what it is like The icons I make are made for people for churches. They’re not Ideosyncratic objects. They’re objects that actually exist in people’s lives to to foster their spiritual practice or to To celebrate something so Yeah, that’s great. Wow. That must have been something to kind of realize and it was that synonymous when Like when you were you already carving? Iconography when you join when you joined into the church Iconography when you join when you joined into no, this is after you were kind of yeah it kind of came together where I want I wanted I started attending an orthodox church when I Was looking to paint icons the carving icons is almost accidental because I I wanted to paint icons because everybody who becomes orthodox wants to paint icons because that’s what is the main tradition but I I couldn’t find a teacher And I was very eager like I was really eager to do it and so I ended up my parents cut down a tree in their yard and they had this wood It was like a linden tree. So they said oh this this linden wood we hear is good for carving Would you like some pieces to kind of fiddle around with it? And so then I was like, yeah And I said I need I want to carve a cross like I want to carve a Blessing cross so I kind of carved this thing with like exacto knives. I didn’t have any tools I took forever to like and it’s horrible. I still have it right. It was really bad but I really enjoyed it and so it was almost like It was almost it was obviously not accidental But it was it was not what I would have imagined that I would carve icons It just kind of presented itself to me and then I did it and and and I continued and there you go and here we are Wow, wow, that’s great It’s great to get to know you. Thanks for thanks for coming on. I’ve ever really it’s my pleasure I feel like you’ve got to know me but I didn’t get to know you very much. So yeah, we could do not I mean we could do another one. Yeah, that’d be nice I’d like to because I I don’t totally understand what the circling thing is because I hear circling but I don’t know what it is And I don’t totally understand it Well, I can just give you this that this short version of it is yeah, go for it But what what I still find I’m still finding out what it is for me. That’s my experience of it, right? Um, but it’s circling is that it is is and I think it I think it’s helpful to understand that I feel I’m starting and and I didn’t understand this until Kind of probably about eight ten years into it. I started to get like oh, okay, but the what’s the what is this responding to? I think it’s directly in response To that we’ve it’s only been I think it first started with the answering machine but What really got big, you know with texting right and all these different all these different social media things where We were able to separate it became Like you were able to consistently separate like the basic exchange of interaction They used to always have to do in person or on the phone, right? Yeah, right and you know those interactions are basically how you learn how that’s how you become a self is through those Interactions, right? Yeah, it’s only been no 15 years or so Since you’ve introduced a division where you don’t have to do most of them Right and because they’re filled with so much ambiguity and so much Discomfort that Just was also the same thing. I think the same thing happened with our bodies, right with Industrial revolution brought machines brought everything to a small circle in front of us So to function you move anymore and then we got fat, right? And then you had this whole different transformation of what even a body was and now you have Gyms and these ways of trying to somewhat deal with that right which is transformative I think the same thing’s happening with relationship and i’m and i’m realizing like part of part of why circling has gotten so big is because it just it happens to be a It’s basically a yoga that just basically takes whatever it is of whatever it is at the most basic level If you’re to take the The asanas of all the all of the impactful personal conversations that have been like life-changing or deep or intimate that have been Nourishing right if you’re just to basically take the elements of that and make them Kind of postures if you will, um circling just basically Getting together in groups and taking those postures of listening of of speaking of communicating that Invite those moments and I and it took me a while to realize that I think A lot of why it’s gotten so big and people have responded to it because basically it’s it’s very much like a gym A gym with our bodies is a response right to That we don’t move anymore. So we have to go into an environment in order to move I think something similar is happening with circling Um, so it’s basically it’s a practice. Um And of course the practice when people start doing it they start having really really deep spiritual kinds of experiences really moments where they wake up And stuff, but it’s essentially it’s a yoga um For relationship and intimacy I would say Okay, and then and then I have to definitely look into it then yeah Yeah, yeah, I don’t think i’ve heard it i’ve seen you talk about it And i’ve heard john revaki mention it and stuff But I don’t I haven’t had the time to kind of look into it Yeah, and then john’s frame with it is like, you know, it’s like it’s essential This he sees it as kind of an essential in what in his terminology the ecology of practices that he talked with he talks Yeah Yeah Yeah, which is yeah, I really I didn’t realize we talked for like an hour and a half I never do that. You got me really in a weird in like a good space, I guess so I appreciate it. Thanks a lot Yeah, I really appreciate it, too Let’s do it again. Sometimes. Yeah, let’s stay in touch. All right, it’s good to talk to you. Bye. Bye As you’ve noticed in the past few weeks I have been having broader conversations trying to stretch out My thinking trying to see trying to test it trying to see where it sticks where i’m having trouble to communicate And so if you have some ideas of the type of people you would like to watch me Talk to and you would be interested in seeing the exchange. Please write them in the comment section I will be paying attention to that and seeing how what interests people and what kind of discussion we can have If it’s someone that I can access and would be willing to come to talk to me That you might have guessed we are not necessarily on in the good graces of the youtube algorithm And so please share these conversations as you feel they are useful I have a lot planned for 2021 Which will probably be as crazy or more more so than 2020 and so hopefully We’ll be there to talk about it and to try to make sense of what is going on And so thanks for your attention and i’ll talk to everybody very soon