https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=EHwj-UAe8vg
Music Alright, well we’re here but Nick is late apparently Yeah, well he’s gonna make an awesome return Like he’s gonna jump in at first I hope so, I hope so Oh, he’s getting an error He can’t sign in I don’t know, let me try again What do you mean he can’t sign in? Why can’t he sign in? So that’s technical errors on his end I guess But look, if you don’t know who Nick is, Nick has done some great work And at one point he took over the Friday Q&A from Van Du Clay who was on vacation Right, he interviewed Brevecky That, that was amazing, I mean he did a really good job with John Brevecky And if you haven’t seen that, you should check it out, it’s here Nick also did a whole series on cults with Paul Van Du Clay on his channel And that’s a hell of a playlist, that playlist is here if you wanna like check it out And we have actually had a previous talk with Nick, right? Well, I’ve had many talks with Nick actually I mean online Yeah, yeah, on my channel, like there’s a dia, an Embodying the Logos where we go into a bunch of things about what it means to be in a group and stuff like that Which is still a highly debated or circumambulated subject And he told a story, his personal story on my channel And then on the old Awakening from the Missing Crisis Discord YouTube channel He has his own series about cults and what it means to be in a cult Like he touches upon that in my talk as well He’s done a lot of thinking about cults, which are groups of people He’s been in four of them Yeah, well, I’m gonna add one, but that’s gonna be sneaky Oh no But yeah, so you have a cult which is basically a group of people organized around an individual In fact, or like a group of individuals which is an oligarchy Which is also like the same thing as a country is in some sense But yeah, like this cult is self-referential often There’s a lot of problems with discernment around that Like, how do you know that you’re in one? Well, the cults destroy discernment, so you don’t know you’re in one They anesthetize you Interesting And he does talk quite a bit about that in his experience in the four cults And when we get him in here whenever his technical problems get resolved Yeah, I guess he’s fighting the stream yard for some reason right now Yeah, I mean maybe we can touch on that a little bit But I’d love to figure out where he’s been Because he sort of dropped off the map And he did this before, like vanished Nothing on Discord, nothing in the videos, just didn’t show up And he kind of reached out to us out of the blue as far as we know And it’s, you know, it was nice to hear from him Like out of the blue, it was weird timing But it was good because it’s been way too long since we’ve had a conversation with Nick Because Nick really understands a bunch of things Like he has not just a grasp on cults, but he’s done a bunch of research on Eastern spiritual traditions And he knows about these Eastern spiritual traditions very deeply compared with most people And I would say he’s read more deeply and carefully than most He doesn’t seem to have that Western Buddhist sort of flavor to his understanding of some of these deep Eastern traditions And that’s kind of unique in my mind But also he’s a very deep thinker, he’s fairly well-read on the philosophy side And far better than we are I mean, he’s smart And also he’s had a lot of experience, right? Like four cults is nothing He’s been in the stream of life and been blasted over in many different ways Yeah, exactly And he has an interesting style of communicating where he is able to garner that level of appreciation and acceptance for wild things I mean, when he’s talking about his cults, those are wild stories, right? Those are not your normal run-of-the-mill, you know, my father was an alcoholic and beat me stories Those are like really out on the rim in terms of experience And that’s one of the things I like about Nick is that he just lays it all out there Like, yeah, I did this and that didn’t work out well at all And he does it with such a good lighthearted manner It’s sort of easy to listen to him because he doesn’t seem to get as upset about some of these things as people would expect So, man, I don’t know what his technical problems are, but to be fair, nothing has worked recently on the interwebs But yeah, I think his sort of whimsical approach to things is unique, especially given his cult stories are so good If you haven’t checked them out, they’re really good And the way he handled John Vervecky that interview time, that was really amazing He really is a way of getting people into the nitty-gritty without being confrontational Which I’m not a particular fan of, obviously, but I’m glad somebody can do it That was at the point in time where we were struggling to pin Vervecky down We noticed what the problems were and how they couldn’t work out But we didn’t have a way to connect to Vervecky and to his framework And Nick had the right words and he could mention the right philosophers So he could use all of these ideas that we’ve been thinking about and he just could apply them And that’s also the nice thing about Nick, right? He’s gone for half a year or whatever and he comes in and he’s like, oh yeah, this and oh yeah, that’s like, I got that You’re doing that, okay Yeah, he’s been a great mentor and friend to us on our little journeys through the meeting crisis resolutions Maybe not personal, although maybe personal for one of us But in helping people and figuring out how to express things to people and how people are stuck He’s always been out in front, comes in and checks in every once in a while, where you guys at now? Oh, you’re there, right? And so it’s nice because he’s given us that feedback about whether or not we’re on the right path And that’s been helpful because he’s allowed us to talk through some of this stuff And we’ve been able to figure out if what we’re saying is actually contained within these other traditions Whether they’re Western philosophical traditions or Eastern spiritual traditions or standard Western religious traditions Because we have all of that Finally, Nick gets here. All right. Well, we’re already done. So like we might as well Yeah, yeah, we might as well just say bye to Nick. All right, Nick. Take it away, my friend. It’s great to see you Yeah, it’s been a good while And then he loses his camera. Look at this. Oh, and then he, and then he He runs. Oh my Lord. Why? Why? I don’t know. What’d you do to your camera, Nick? Turn on your camera, damn it. Are we going to have the banner with technical difficulties? This is like the technical difficulties livestream, apparently It’s been a while since I’ve had to True, true. You’ve been doing real world stuff, which we hope to get an update on Yes How much you’ve heard so far of the praise we’ve been heaping on you, but I’m sure we have more as we go But like everybody can see that he’s plagued by demons Right? Clearly Control E Control E Does not work That wasn’t it. I don’t know what you did I’m not reading my camera. It did initially Yeah Yeah, we saw you on camera for a few brief seconds Brief moments There’s like a dot dot dot next to your name. No, there’s a settings thing. If you’re on a computing Yeah, it’s like my camera actually disconnected from the computer Yeah, you hit it so that might actually have happened There we go Now it came up as an option at least Oh, that’s good. Maybe we’ll get you There we go. There we go. Oh, wow. Nick, how have you been? I’m in new background How have you been? Where have you been? Where are you now? Give us the update, man. It’s great to see you. Yeah It’s been a long few months The short of it is The housing situation in Santa Cruz Crumbled underneath me briefly or shortly after my fiance moved in so we could save some money So we were planning on moving up here to the Pacific Northwest Well for quite a while but our plan was to actually make the move from Santa Cruz this upcoming summer So like six months from now And basically we just pushed that forward a year We’re living with my dad up here at the moment And just kind of trying to set down some roots and stabilize everything and save up some money And that’s where we’re at Great. You still the master knife maker or what are you doing for work? I am currently working for a failing construction company Excellent So I’ve been doing that for the last six months It’s been interesting I’ve basically no experience in construction up to this point Obviously I’ve worked with my hands a lot So I had at least somewhat of a skill set that transitioned over to it But it’s been very humbling Being the dumb guy at the job site for six months Around a bunch of people that have trouble getting the job done I’ve had trouble with areas of information processing that I’m generally much more capable of So it’s been an interesting blend Wow Yeah, yeah But yeah at the moment I’m kind of looking around seeing what other job situations are available Mostly just because the company really is When I hired Don we had 12 workers in the field and three project managers Now we’re down to three guys in the field and two project managers They closed down the office just recently I’ve been laid off this week which actually works out well because we got pretty crappy weather Oh wow Hopefully I’ll be back at it next week Oh I thought you’d be taking it over and turning it into the new Nick cult Not yet Maybe next week Right On tunnels like we’ve been talking about tunnels They’re really important Oh no not with the tunnels The Catholics have more tunnels than anyone else I’m just saying Anyway Well that’s good Nick that’s great So you’re setting down new routes in the Pacific Northwest there huh Right and you know I spent half of my teenagerhood here I guess all of my teenagerhood I lived here for 12 years before I moved to Santa Cruz So I have a little bit of a basis here I have a little bit of a basis here I have a bunch of family up here Which was one of the big draws to coming up here as we try and kind of get ready to move into the next stage of life Right Yeah It’s been an adjustment but you know a lot of benefits A lot of recalibrating things No that’s good Things have been wild Really wild especially lately Yeah the timing of you popping back up Manuel was like what the hell is going on and I’m like I don’t know I don’t know why he would pop up now That’s very interesting given everything that’s been going on I can just you know we can invoke the hand of the ineffable I guess because I got nothing I got I don’t know why he popped out of nowhere in this particular time And said hey let’s do a live stream like right away Because usually you pop up and you come into the Discord server and you’re like alright how you guys doing where you at How close are you? How far along have you gotten? But no you’re like alright let’s do a live stream It’s like alright let’s chat let’s do a video let’s do this Yeah so we haven’t captured the open end of Natalus yet No no the open ended Tilos elephant march is on I’m glad to see he’s still there He’s still there marching Yeah for me it was probably mostly just a you know I had a week off I’ve been craving these conversations I was just talking last week with my fiance about how I feel like I don’t even know if I can have these types of conversations anymore Just because it’s been so long since I’ve engaged with them Like my brain doesn’t think in that way So I started you know writing comments and digging in a bit more And I’m like okay my brain still works that way it just hasn’t been used in a while Oh Michelle Michelle is all happy to see you Nick see thank you Michelle Lovely nice to see you hope you’re well What have you been commenting on because I haven’t seen you in the comments But I haven’t really been looking necessarily for people in comments lately Oh I was I was commenting on the whole TLC arguments Oh you were oh so you saw some of the desktop there Right I’m I’m blubish by the way when YouTube rewrote its or redid its its thing It got rid of my normal NB and replaced it with whatever it is I signed up with Google with many years ago Oh okay so I have to admit that my memory isn’t good enough to reconstruct that in my head What you commented but tell us what oh I was writing like small papers Okay but basically I was I was making the argument that the I think basically I do think TLC is a good idea I do think TLC exists I think it’s a loose pattern of relationships and networks I think maybe why there’s been so much argument about it is that the labels been used so much that the concept is kind of reifying And as it reifies you kind of there becomes a stronger desire or a need to start having to properly define it in relation to that reification Right so as it becomes more solid instead of just kind of this big bucket term right and that’s what it was forever It was mostly just a convenient word that we could just kind of like well it’s vaguely in this pattern of things This kind of relational network right BOMs in there Peterson’s in there or Vakey all these kind of you know general area of conversations But it keeps getting used and then it keeps getting used in different ways and then as it kind of it right it starts becoming denser and heavier And it starts feeling more like a thing instead of just like a general bucket term and as it ray effect ray of eyes like that I think that’s where people start going Well wait what the heck is this thing no one’s properly set boundaries around it Well only I would say only certain people like some people want the boundaries I mean I think for me right and people wouldn’t understand this right because they haven’t gone through it I’ve been through lots of online communities and just to use one that’s accessible Awakening from Meaning Crisis Discord blew up in exactly the same way right like they started doing stuff and they started naming stuff We effectively were too many rebels too many states right and they just didn’t want a thing because yeah they could be part of a thing and that would get rid of their domicile problem and you know maybe they maybe daddy approves of them again and they feel like the prodigal son or whatever But ultimately they don’t want the structure and they don’t want the judgment right because if they have all that then the problem for them is well now they have to admit they did something wrong And then they and then they have to repent right and that doesn’t guarantee redemption and I think a lot of people just jump straight to redemption in whatever form you know there’s different forms that people think of redemption but the way they’re talking it’s about redemption for them Like oh no I want TLC to be this because it did this thing for me and so I wanted to do this thing for everybody else and it’s like what if that isn’t it and what if it didn’t do that for everybody else and what if in fact that thing didn’t that happened to you didn’t require TLC or whatever it is you think TLC is And that’s where see that’s where I’ve been really focusing like and a lot of these people for me they’re just rejecting Peterson I’m like why are you rejecting the guy who Peterson is like none of her foundation will be out of it But let me try and frame it a little bit because I think when you see something right like when you see a spirit or maybe you better sit you had an energy because I don’t I don’t know what was an actual spirit right like because I think that’s why you used the word loose right there’s yeah like and so when you see something like that there’s a potential right And so when when you name it you’re trying to capture that potential and like I was I was talking about that well like then that potential needs to get ahead right like like it needs to gather under something to get a body and and and that was a moment in time like a couple years ago like three years ago probably Like it’s kind of happened with the bridges of meaning on some level right but it needs this had together under and then the name is actually real right like it like it manifests under that name but my analysis is that like that point has passed and when you keep using the name And you’re trying to manifest energy that no longer exists that that’s necromancy right like now now we’re we’re trying to blow in a spirit in into something that’s dead and it doesn’t even have a proper body so and I think when when when I was talking like my argument was around what like we’re wasting energy Like like right it is all misdirected and therefore satanic like right right it doesn’t start that way and this is where people get confused right with the emergence in particular right because I see this and and that’s why I said look you guys are playing the the Neoplatonic game Like you’re doing exactly what Verveki and others are doing with this term Neoplatonic which is I think we put it to bed it’s a garbage term it’s a garbage term there’s nothing in common after Plato to have a thing with right like the thing that all those people have in common is Plato they don’t have anything else in common and so they’re really just rebelling against Plato in one form or another or omitting Plato or whatever however you want to frame it and and the reason I think why they’re doing it is because they’re doing that because they’re noticing the many because the many is always there and always changing and always coming up because entropy is real guys I don’t know what else to say like you know time passes and time and change are they differentiable I don’t think so like you can’t measure time without change and change doesn’t wouldn’t be observable without time right and so it looks like that’s just two sides to the same coin at some point So what I’m picking up on I think is three kind of different variables here or or or maybe even just contexts one is that you’re commenting on there at the end mark seems like the whole memetic drift problem which is what does a word mean particularly words highlighting abstract patterns when the pattern itself changes now aren’t you that’s where the necromancy point gets in are you trying to revive the thing as it was or you now referencing something different or what is that you’re still talking about so that’s why good point the other might be like how my brain was thinks about this is you have these like a layered ontology right layers of of of being from the abstract down to the real and so you have these over categories and then you have the instantiations of those categories as they move down so TLC might be the giant umbrella term up at the top it’s just this big chaotic constantly kind of shifting around pattern that doesn’t have a strong definition because there’s so many elements that in it that are changing so dramatically and dynamically over time yet there’s some kind of binding to it that in some sense that’s where I would object that’s right object so so for example and and and I do think that the problem is in ontology one of the problems when people invoke ontology is they’re actually an object of material reality all of a sudden right and I think this is what I was alluding to like emergence happens all the time guys you know like like people do go fund me’s and it works without whatever they’re referring to a CLC like that happens you know it may not be as common as a word common as people like right because you gotta have something to get it started and whatever but there’s something to get it started and there’s something to keep it going those don’t have to be the same thing that’s another thing where people get were compressing and flattening the world so we want to be the same thing but at a certain point and this I think this is what Manuel was alluding to right there’s a time component things are emerging all the time emergence isn’t interesting to me what’s interesting is whether or not the emergence lasts and does it form or does it deform does it unform does it spread out or does it come together to make things better right and right this for me is related to reciprocal narrowing versus reciprocal opening I want I want to take like like a country for example right so you could say well like like there’s a border here right and then one side of the border it’s it’s the same nature the same everything as the other side but when you look at the people no no and so so you can say no like like literally no the language that they use right like like the way that I was making I was just making a joke about how how America’s current borders are are a little mushy right right or non-existent yeah but no I take your point so so so so there’s there’s something that’s common in in their identity right you could you could say well like to have their suffer the same fate right like literally But they’re not the same right and and and and then you have this idea of a spiritual father right which is a different way of binding than than the nation has right so there’s competing binding principles right because the nation is is still territorially locked while while the spiritual union doesn’t suffer from from the physical constraints in the same way But but it’s important it’s important to see that that from the outside you can observe something to be unified right you could that’s the argument like oh if aliens would come to earth what would they see right like they would see certain unities that are not unities and and they would see certain disunities like America that are unity right Right it’s it’s it’s it’s really complicated with these identities and and I think it is yeah I will end to that point you know in many ways many of the discussions would Many of the arguments would in the same way say that the United States is not a thing Right it does not exist right yeah just like the Gulf War didn’t happen like But because you can see something that was brought up by propaganda and it’s like well yeah but like we have to relate to things in the world’s true interface and the mediation right because we don’t have direct experience But the but the United States is a particularly good example right because right now we’re going through this confusion around really the ethereal iconoclasm and materialism and those are all very close together linked right materialism takes you into the destruction of the icons right because you don’t want things pointing away from the material anymore It’s flat flattening the world materialism flattens the world down to material you know why why are Sam and Frodo going on a thing together they must have a sexual relationship they have to be homosexual it’s the same right it’s just flattening everything down to a material cause or a formal cause or some combination of both right The reifying the reifying yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s the word you were using yeah that’s that’s a good word too Whereas what’s actually going on with the United States is it doesn’t coalesce around the presidency that’s ridiculous right because the presidency changes the way we think about things The whole role of the president’s changed so much even over the past 70 years in the United States it’s it’s almost an unrecognizable office in some sense the whole idea of executive power is brand new you know say you know what I mean The fight over executive power is Franklin Delano Roosevelt it’s not newer than that and and you know what I mean I think that’s the whole point of the president’s role is that he’s the president of the United States and he’s the president of the United States And it wasn’t taken up in the way that he did it until the 70s right that’s when it started to take that whole thing started to be taken up again and but what is the United States well really the United States is the 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States is the United States is the United States is the United States have that sense you you you think all of the you know the united states to whoever’s president yeah and i would say that’s definitely not how i think about so i would make the argument that the that the america as a title functions very much in a similar fashion to tlc as a title right it has within it many conflicting uh tell i what is the tell us is telloy there we go um some even overtly towards its own end that nonetheless are are members of it by definition but but i think you’re making a mistake because i don’t think those telloy uh create membership right well it’s sort of like it’s sort of like if you have an island of prisoners right they have something in common they’re all criminals but their crimes aren’t the same and the way they see the world isn’t the same and their highest values aren’t the same and their virtues are probably not existing and then you get australia maybe maybe but but but the problem is that you know you have basically a bunch of people who don’t agree but are forced together in circumstances and maybe they’re forced together there for very good reasons i don’t know that that’s not particularly relevant right they’re forced together for circum and maybe it’s the only it’s not open participation right maybe it’s the only place that will have them right or or maybe it’s the only place they will stay because they don’t feel like they are being imposed upon or judged or whatever right or they feel welcome or whatever like but but does that mean that they have a thing together right because because again and i made this argument earlier with the grocery store a lot of what they’re describing is literally experiences have going to the grocery store like this is not uncommon to bump into people and make connections and find things in common around an area that has things that you have in common like oh i like tomatoes there’s somebody there with getting tomatoes and you know like that sort of thing actually happens all the time to all kinds of people that i know you know like i went to car show and i met this guy who’s really into mustangs and say oh shocker you know but other people went to the same car show and they never met each other and they’re all car people probably presumably although some people go to car shows are not car people by the way true i’ve been to many car shows and i’m not much of a car person but that’s right and then and then the question is well because it because this is going to be relevant uh obviously too the question is who’s there with a positive affect is trying to be generative right i think that was manuel’s term generative uh for sure right and who’s not and and and maybe they’re not and that’s okay because they’re not hostile to the generative but what if they’re snakes and i think one of the problems that we’ve run into in the world is that you you know you can take some world event like let’s just take the the fake news flu right the fake the fake news virus pandemic and we could say boy there were a lot of people doing a lot of bad things now it doesn’t matter which side of those issues or whatever if you want to put it inside you’re on it does not matter the statement that i’m going to make is universal right either way you look at it a lot of people were possessed by something right and went down a bad path and again it doesn’t matter if you’re like pro mask or anti-mask it applies in both directions right it’s it which is mysterious in some sense why does it reply equally in both directions um and so the question would be you know do they actually have something in common what’s really going on there why is it that that happened because some of those people are just too busy to figure it out even if they could like even if they had the cognitive capacity to fall one way or the other on whether or not masks were a good idea they’re not going to right they’re going to put their cognition somewhere else but some of the people are there to divide and i think the problem is when you have five we’ll say actual certified phd scientists who do real research like actually saying the same bad thing because it and it is another doesn’t matter which side of issue you’re on masks or no masks you’re going to find five verifiable upstanding citizens right that aren’t doing it now the now the question becomes because like theoretically we can all agree there could be a snake in the garden right right but but the problem and i think this is the problem and i think it’s partly the internet it’s partly this well everybody can can get along together or whatever the the believability of one snake at least theoretically is no problem now i don’t think people are believing in real snakes in real life but five are there fought because that’s not a sellable message anymore but when the pod expands to the internet five is certain right it’s certain and so now now a sense making tool we might use oh yeah you’ve got a garden of this size which is you don’t with the internet right got a garden of this size uh so the odds that you’re going to find more than one snake are fairly low so if five people are saying the same thing it must be true because there aren’t five snakes right that’s not true anymore right and you’re talking about basically distributed cognition how unstable it is in an environment like the internet because what ends up happening is there’s too too much of everything all at once what it forces the person to do is to basically use pre-cognitive filters to filter the information in the first place thus basically boosting confirmation bias through the roof well what i don’t i don’t believe in pre-cognitive filtering but uh joey joey is glad to see you right that’s a dream team nice to see you too joey hi jerry i’d like to believe joey’s uh optimistic outlook on us uh it sounds good to me i’d like well i i want to bring in like i was in the breakwater festival in germany um uh we had a mandala uh circle thing right where it’s basically there’s a group of people in the center you get to go into the center and then you get to speak and so everybody from the outside had the opportunity to go in and then you had this movement in and out and so what happened right and we have to recognize this this is a highly selected group of people right right with with relatively common purpose and there was a division like a really stark division and what was the division around well some people wanted something they wanted to get somewhere and other people wanted to i don’t i don’t know how to articulate that correctly but they they wanted to share they wanted to share in one thing and and and like like i guess i guess it’s it’s it’s more like a universalist and getting everything every side in there or whatever and and in implicitly assigning equal relevance to every signal because that’s the consequence of that but right you can you can re-contact re-interpret that as as a masculine impulse right and a feminine impulse right and so so if you have a group of people right you need to organize spaces for this masculine and feminine thing to coexist and and the problem is that in order to have something it needs to be in a structure in a hierarchy right so the masculine has to make the space or the house builds the house that can house the feminine and so if you if you start using the feminine as the house yeah snakes yeah like so this gets i a while back i was like there’s three variables here at play one was the memetic drift the other was levels of ontology yep i think the third dynamic here is that you could like you can have the the conversation at the level of what is ontology in the first place what makes something real or not real right so that’s one way to have the conversation the other is what is health right you decipher what these systems or patterns mean if they’re self-terminating patterns if they have a viral like a negative viral quality to them right if they’re parasitic these are all totally totally fair judgments of a pattern but it’s a different question than the ontological one now they’re related but they’re correct correct this a little bit because i think there’s some some framing that you want to use here right so there’s emergent things right and and they don’t have a standard right they don’t have a telos they don’t have a way to be judged right so you can’t determine their health and then you have things that come from above that emanate right and and they are emanate right and and they are measured by the standards from which they emanate right and that allows you to determine the health of that emanation but but the health only exists in relation to the ideal like the health doesn’t make any sense without the ideal judging it yeah that’s that that’s the emergent difference between emergence is good and being is good right and and so that and that depends on a create out a good idea of what creation is right because if creation doesn’t emanate from from above then emergence has to be good because i mean babies emerge man so it must be okay right well i and i wouldn’t be so quick to make the the judgment in that sense there’s an interesting thing here because again how i’m imagining i’m picking up what you guys are saying definitely um what’s interesting so when you use a title like tlc it is absolutely it is it’s emanation or uh well you’re trying emergent emergent it has and the feminine quality is a great great way to view it because it’s just a bucket term right but within the cat let me finish just for a minute so i can at least communicate how i’m picturing it i’m not saying you have to believe it um within that giant bucket term you then have say bridges of meaning or estuary right and like if people want that feminine kind of sharing thing they go to estuary because the whole point of it is the murky water right it’s it’s the place to do that it has no goal other than this kind of meeting of two conflicting things perhaps something new emerges from it but it doesn’t have a clear tip telos on the other end you would have like the i forget what the heck it was called now the ex 90 project and then exodus people exodus 90 right um project then like you know that certain group of people went and made their own little group or a method to share how their progress was with it and then they all supported each other with a very clear telos in mind that they used their relationship to so what if there’s no crossover at all between those groups which is what i’m seeing like it just they have nothing in common nothing well do the people do they all share in the same groups of ideas do they communicate across those groups that’s no look i mean the argument all along has been look at all the people that left vom for one reason or another right right and look at why you know i put up the theaters and sphere website in 15 minutes while i was on a live stream with father eric and why was i able to do that you know well you had a bunch of artwork yeah an artwork from sally joe which she had offered to the portal which she had offered to bom which none of you guys wanted which is like i i’m okay with it i benefit i got all the artwork for free it was already done sally joe and ironically and weirdly again another weird synchronicity sally joe just reaches out to me a few days earlier and says like hey i have all this great artwork and we’ve been talking about the peterson sphere sort of batten that around why don’t you have it all and she made it all available to me and then it just so happened for whatever reason it kind of fit the website very nicely and and now we have the peterson sphere website and somebody else took it over my original design got wiped out by bad bad tools but if you know if you want to see it i’ll post a link um but the thing was like she to this day sounds a little still upset and she should be in my opinion that she was rejected by those people all right and not rejected by us like she still hangs out with us uh and and she insists by the way that she’s still the meanest in the group uh i agree with that but she’s pretty mean uh to be fair uh but but she you know she’s looking for people to work with and it’s not like this isn’t a pick on bom thing i mean bom was like the fifth place that they didn’t actually want to cooperate they didn’t want to cooperate here’s somebody who wants to go you’d say well cooperate with people desperate because she knows she needs that cooperation she doesn’t get it anywhere right and so she comes and hangs out with us and we’re like absolutely we’ll do whatever we can do to help you out sort of a thing right but be a bom is a particularly bizarre one because the success of a person using that tool as it was intended that community as it was intended was was that they no longer participated with it yeah that was the condition of success yes so you end up with now now you’re in a like we were talking about before with memetic drift you’re in a community that has a astronomical level of entropy in its meme because the people that actually used its telos appropriately are no longer there to hold its telos in place and you get a least common denominator factor of the people that stay end up being the ones that couldn’t use its teleology correctly well well i would disagree i mean i don’t think all things have a teleology like i don’t think you can apply ontology universally i think that’s one of the big problems with the thing i don’t you know if you follow my twitter the age of gnosis like the problem with the age of gnosis is the age of gnosis one of the problems the age of gnosis says everything has an ontology and i don’t think everything does have an ontology which is ironic because on the one hand ontology is the thing everyone’s fighting because ontology is the the description of the hierarchy it’s a definition of the hierarchy right and everybody’s trying to flatten the world and get rid of the hierarchy and at the same time going no ontology well that’s because they’re trying to re-enchant the world scientifically right but there’s another form of re-enchantment around this we call the parabolic way of knowing right now we call it the poetic way of knowing there’s another way to do that that’s non-ontological by definition anti-ontology and and i think that’s the difference i think the thing that joey was very much on to thank you joey thank you thank you uh with b o m was this idea that look you you have a place that you’re at and you need to get to a new place and in the middle is this brackish water this estuary so we got to hop over that with the bridge because there’s sharks in there man and you don’t need any of that you know oh fair enough okay and this is my outline so of course i’d agree of course i think it’s a good idea um but but but you know take it seriously for a minute right and i know you well but i’m just more for the audience take it seriously for a minute now i think what you’re seeing is some of those pillars that were that were they’re not even pillars if you’re what they’re called them bridges there’s a casons right that we’re holding the bridge on one side of the other right and this goes right back to pidgeot and peterson pidgeot saying and this is what got brought up again recently i think vanderkley brought it up uh he’s got one foot on two islands and they’re spreading apart i think the same thing’s happening right like the bridge can’t hold because i don’t think it’s spreading apart actually it gets crumbling right and it and that that seems to coincide with crumbling of something else by the way right right which is a totally fair argument and i would agree that a community or a relational network of people that is built in this way that is lacking those hierarchical qualities this is why i was going towards health that we would describe as healthy yep will necessarily die a lot sooner than the healthy thing yeah yeah yeah right so that’s why i was bringing that other bit in again i think where i struggle is with the problem of the ontological hierarchy and how it how it i do not like not using ontology i i don’t like that poetry has no ontological status that it is anti-ontological because to me that makes it sound like the only real thing is like the matter or right the chair is real the chair has ontology but the description of the chair has no ontology or the relationship of the chair to the person sitting on it has no ontology but but but but here you get into subjectivity like like because all i’m hearing right is like oh like there’s a group of people and they’re eating the same food right for example vanderglaas videos right and oh here’s a group of people and they gather in the same location right right for example bridges of meaning and it’s like fine but like when when you have a group of people eat the same food what do they get out of it like are they are they all liking it no they’re not so they’re having completely opposing experiences being exposed to the identical thing stimulus yeah i know but this doesn’t yeah but not not only stimulus like like like like opposing like like conflicting non-conflict non-mergeable participation like like it it’s it’s you can’t unify these two things like i said in the mandala project right like when when you want to get this one thing out of it right like oh i feel insecure right and i want to i want to get security from my participation and you get to a place where you get truth thrown around like no business you don’t feel secure and these two things cannot coexist in the same space like and so when you when you take these two entities and you put them under the same name that’s corrupt like that’s a corrupt entity like that that cannot maintain being i agree okay i did disagree but again i’m not question see now it’s moving again in the direction of what i would consider health of like yes you can put those things under the same name it’s just the half-life of that that category is astronomically low no no no no no no no but you’re putting them under a false name like like that’s just that’s just lying like that’s not like the fact that it has a little half-life means that you’re not true like you and i and i think the missing i think the missing part really is that the is that nobody wants to take peterson seriously when he says what you do matters right because it matters what you name and it matters how you name it so if you name something that shouldn’t have a name because it’s not a thing if you just throw out the term neo-platinism or post-modern or even modernism i make all these arguments on my on my on my navigating patterns channel right like you can’t use the term modernism in a reasonably communicative manner it’s not actually possible because what is modern is always now and it’s never in the past and it’s never in the future so once time changes and i’m pretty sure time just kind of change all the time right like it’s we’re not out of time right we don’t there’s no objective material reality we are not out of time we cannot be outside of it you can’t use the word modern because it it only ever means now it only ever means the present and so then post-modern can’t make any sense either right and pre-modern can’t make any sense either and it’s not that those concepts are wrong i mean this is why i’m hoping someday i’ll get this age of diagnosis bad naming is one thing right but what the referent is is still just because something was given an ugly stupid or bad name right right does it mean that the thing that it’s referring to doesn’t have carry meaning or have that’s part but that’s part of my point i think the problem is there’s three conditions right you can name something that just doesn’t exist but absolutely do that i’m i’m no for a fact as you know maybe you don’t know maybe you don’t know this about me but i know for a fact about you we’ve both seen people do that we’ve both been around people who have named things very true that do not exist in any form in any imagination or maybe the only way they exist is in their imagination i use my purple talking unicorn example there right and and and that’s one condition another condition is poor naming right and so my project of you know talking about the age of gnosis is no no this thing you guys keep calling modernism which is the result of materialism or the things you’re describing are the result of materialism but the actual right name is age of gnosis you know and you’ve got to put a little nuance around it right gnosis where knowledge is just propositional is the way i i frame it so when you look at it that way a lot more things start to make sense you can start to put times to it right you can start to say oh there’s minor adoption here there’s major adoption here there’s that flipping that that you know that flip that happens right adoption here like you can do that with age of gnosis you cannot do that with modernity because it’s because like like the invention of the telegraph does not have a huge effect when it’s invented and it doesn’t have a huge effect when it’s adopted because it’s actually the adoption of the telephone but you have to go back to the telegraph to get the telephone you know you get into these weird things when you try to make it material or or technology based or whatever right same thing happens when you try to do it with the complexity well no no you you run into the fact that the tools don’t matter but the same thing happens when you do it with churches so the same thing happens i mean we ran into this problem i i’m sure you you’re well aware of this it’s not really the protestant reformation because it’s not actually a problem when it happens i mean there are problems when it happens but the problems we have now are uniquely post 1960 but they’re not 1960 didn’t cause them eat right because and this is the brilliant part about for vickie’s work although i don’t think he even he understands how serious he should take this there’s a groundwork that’s laid but there’s something else going on on top of the groundwork and it’s when those two things meet and this is the third way of naming something right so you don’t have an imaginary you know a purely imaginary object that only exists in the perception of one person you don’t have a misd named object you have a properly named object in other words that the emanation and the emergence meet any emergence can be named and there are better and worse names for emergencies but if that name doesn’t match an emanation you’ve got a whole different set of problems and that’s what i think like modernism is it’s just a bad name for an emergence and nobody can pin it down and nobody can understand it because of the bad names because there is a relationship between the name the goodness and whatever is your naming if it’s material or ethereal doesn’t matter right there’s a three-part relationship there and that relationship has to be proper on all fronts and that’s actually nine fronts not three fronts see my video on one two and three on navigating patterns all right and so you get into this that’s where the combinatorial explosion starts it’s not where it ends it’s where it starts and and so you can’t just throw names around you can’t just say well you know what it’s calvinism i mean i can point to a bunch of evils of quote calvinism but as here as i can tell for the most part i agree with most of kelvin’s stuff you know like kelvin didn’t do too many things wrong i mean surely he’s not without sin or anything but like yeah i’m luther i have a harder time with luther let me tell you uh but kelvin ah kelvin kelvin and me we’re we’re buds we’re cool uh luther and me now i want to i want to backhand him for sure uh but but but but those and those differences aren’t subtle the thing was and this is when everybody like they always pulled the trick well it’s how he was interpreted after he didn’t believe that i’m like who cares like that damage was done and he was involved in it unless you can prove to me that had he not done what he did this other thing wouldn’t have happened you know then then you know and and in some cases you can in some cases you can say yeah if luther didn’t do what he did uh protestantism doesn’t emerge i think i i i strongly suspect that’s true maybe it’s not a lot of the protestants say well no there was these other guys until the bold move is made i don’t think anybody uh moves outside their outside their uh open cage which is really what they were in was it was an open prison and they’re saying help help we’re being trapped and there’s no bars in front of them and they can walk out whatever they want and but instead of walking out they pretend like they’re trapped they launch a rebellion for no reason right which turns into a revolution of thought effectively right which is which is forwarded by the printing press but printing press not bad and right and so these things come together right and then a spirit emerges and you’ll label it and maybe the labels change and now it’s called protestantism or whatever but now you it’s not even that you have an improper name you have an improper thing and it just keeps splitting and starting and needing more names fair so the way in which the problems of the catholic church were addressed by luther not not appropriate now as you said it gets confounded by novel technology people in some sense realize they’ve been living under a a very heavily reified and corrupt system for a long time and now they’re getting to the point that they can actually see how corrupt and reified it is because they have direct more direct access to the information that they were never given access to except from some smart guys speaking latin at them yes yes well that’s that’s the good fate argument right because yeah well no i’m not actors yeah keep going well i was just saying that’s the the emotional impetus now whether the revolution was necessary carried out correctly those are all that’s a whole other ballpark right right well then that’s the state card appropriate whether the response to the realization was appropriate is is i would probably say no that’s not the right way to do um but right at which hindsight’s 2020 but but but to go back to eating from the same food right is like maybe the original author was in in in good faith right but these these things that they’re taking from him right they get their own own spin right because because there’s opportunistic or or just people who don’t have complete understanding right who who of course yeah misapply these things right and so so there’s there’s a parallel well not one but many parallel spirits that manifest under the one spirit so even if the the one spirit is is pure which i doubt but like you still have all this other stuff yeah i don’t think the spirits are ever pure and at this level maybe but maybe not ever but but but but yeah well that’s a problem and i wanted to rephrase the argument that mark made about naming right and haven’t an an an earth or emergence and emanation coming together and it’s like i’ve been thinking about authority a lot right because by what authority does this name exist right and so to to have a crude argument it’s by the frame right like it the frame framing right so this little corner is is a framing right so you you you say this is a valid framing and therefore i can give this name and and then it’s okay but where’s this framing coming from right like is this framing under god’s authority right like is that flowing from god or is that is that flowing from you right it’s is this serving a purpose to you and and like i think i think that’s the two poles of authority right like there’s there’s autonomy right like naming yourself or naming things for yourself and and and then there’s the divine name and and the problem is like what you try to validate nick it’s all coming from the person right so it’s it’s for my purpose right or or for the way that i can see the world tlc is useful and it’s like well yeah maybe but it’s false like well right and you and i think yeah it’s fair but we you have thrown out almost all of your own cognition at that point no no no no no not at all let me put it this way all right awakening from the meaning crisis server the religion that is not a religion we’ve already got a suspicious name like that’s just like nobody like wow i like i get what you’re doing john i get what you’re doing but also no no one likes that one yeah no one likes that but but but they try to do it and john explicitly says i’m not going to lead this i don’t want to become a cult figure blah blah blah right so what you have is a naming someone does the name gives the thing a name and walks away from it just i want nothing no responsibility for this name this is where the problem comes in is that you need authority and you need leadership right because somebody has to set the bounds of the structure and somebody has to lead that structure like there has to be a head of the structure doesn’t have to be a person doesn’t be the same person over time there doesn’t have to be a single authority the authority doesn’t have to be the leader but in some cases it can i would call those rare cases by the way but whatever doesn’t matter right and this is why i thought that father eric’s uh friday question from a couple of weeks ago was perfect what is the telos what is the head and what is the structure that you’re referring to because in order for thinginess in order to qualify as a thing you need all three of those and so if you’re naming and you don’t have those three elements or however you want to think of them properties i would call them aspects i think that’s better although none of them are quite right we’ll say if if those aren’t identifiable and i did a live stream on identity in case you want to know more um then you have a problem and that problem is you have an improper name and i don’t see a way around that like i thought that was i thought i thought father eric really nailed that one i mean his his uh open mic video on his channel about this has well over like 600 views already and that was just sunday like that video was unbelievably popular for from weird reason jacob’s follow-up video didn’t it hasn’t approached that yet i think it’s because it gets so deeply into the questions of ontology and epistemology at what level do these things interact with each other but those are right but but what when you’re talking about you know you know ontology and epistemology i think those are proxy scientific terms and i use them all the time you know that right like hopefully everybody knows that they’re very useful terms i’m not saying don’t use those words but when people use that what i think they’re actually talking about most of the time uh not manuel and i because we don’t have this problem is sanity i think when when when vanderkley says we outsource our sanity i think you should end every video by saying that and i believe we outsource our sanity like like seriously like you you should go whole hog on that one and i believe carthage must be destroyed because people don’t understand that that if you wanted to say well what is the most common thing that the people who love the tlc moniker have in common i’d say they’re all searching the bounds of their own sanity because they know that they’re not sure where that is and like fair enough i’m not i’m not like poo pooing on that that’s a big problem i agree okay we might disagree on ways to solve that and i would say if that’s your problem that’s because you won’t submit to having your sanity helped along or determined in some sense or at least uh uh found out or discovered using the authority of other people who aren’t you and so in essence you’re rebelling against the one thing you need most and and and this goes back to the to a misunderstanding of of things like redemption you don’t just get redeemed first of all i don’t think people can redeem other people i think that’s ridiculous uh you do have to repent and maybe you’ll get redeemed but you have to repent and before you can repent you have to acknowledge you did something wrong and and all of that is witnessed all of it including the redemption uh it’s just two of those steps are yours and yours alone uh but but they can’t be done by yourself in a vacuum and that’s where people get all get that’s where people get all get confused like repentance or acceptance that i’ve done something wrong is mine alone in some sense but if i do it by myself on a desert island it doesn’t happen and so well i would disagree at some degree i think you’re correct there does have to be relationality i don’t know if it has to be with people no no what all right now we’re in the christian argument and then yes i can afford you all the christian arguments where the desert island argument works because jesus is always with you sort of thing fine fair fair but but what people are doing a relation in general is always with you but yeah right right uh yeah fair enough but but what people are doing is they’re saying no no i want you and this is very explicit now it’s extremely explicit now you can see it all over those streams that we were talking about earlier especially jacobs right people very much want other people to change how they treat them based on their desire for redemption without repentance without even acknowledging that they’ve done something wrong even though internally they know they’ve done something wrong they just don’t want to suffer any cost to reputation and they don’t want to do anything about they just want to say well i am the way i am and therefore i should be able to go to the church that i want or i should be able to be where i want or i should be able to label you the way i want and that’s what i mean my whole objection is i don’t want to be dragged into this thing at this point there was a time when i did and i tried to cooperate and i tried to cooperate we started projects and like rejection rejection rejection whining bitching moaning complaining you know and like i said the deceptiveness is what bothers me like don’t sit there when i know full well you’ve called for me to be kicked off of the discord server multiple times and say you’re part of this what is wrong with i know you’ve told paul van der klee you shouldn’t talk to me i know this like and you’re out there in public telling everybody else that i’m part of your group when i know you don’t want me to be part of whatever this is i know that i get it that they don’t know that but i know you’re deceiving them i don’t think that’s good in fact i think it’s kind of evil yeah that’s my objection the deception those are snakes and the thing is in that corner or whatever it is and it probably is a corner it’s a it’s a viper pit there’s not five snakes there’s more and i it’s an unbelievable number i agree but also that’s the number guys there’s a lot of bad actors i think i have a different perception of what it to me that’s where categories like bridge is a meaning aft mc right more distinguished actual attempts at a distinct culture are maybe jonathan peggio’s server which i’ve never gone to but to me they sort of pulled it off and and i don’t mean to interrupt you but i do want to highlight what joey said here a disproportionate percent of tlc adjacent folks not only refuse to submit outside authority but also refuse to submit even to themselves well said joey right endless inner rebellion reflected in an endless outward rebellion joey is always is just so brilliant that’s dead on and i think that that’s what we’re seeing and and look i mean i hate to harp on it we’re seeing that everywhere like that’s happening in the us government right that’s why people are seeing culture war but i’ve already made the argument elsewhere but two two one live stream and one and one recorded video on this there’s no culture war there’s a fight to have unity to have a culture which is what what a culture is it’s a unity of a type or not because you’re you’re you’re not all going to unify around whatever climate change or whatever gaia religion is right because they they don’t have a telos right like the the problem of no telos is the problem we’re experiencing but then yeah you look at something like jonathan peggio and and he recently talked about this how he doesn’t want to become a leader and i like that’s a different problem that i’d love to dive into at some point but but they have symbolic world they have a discord server uh you know i’m on it they have a facebook group like they have all these things it didn’t take them long and they get work done right i i understand all of that again we’re back in the health thing i think i would ask then has there ever existed no matter how well structured and well named a human social system that was not terminal okay but now we’re starting to talk about breeding right like like you have to breathe which which branch well well well well well the fact that there are branches doesn’t mean it doesn’t persist well burning off the deadwoods part of peterson’s thing and so i think you don’t have branches you got a branch to burn off you can’t persist that that would be my own symbolic world but but but okay so i want to i want to uh put in in some context still because i like to reframe things right so first of all i want to do the favorite thing for everybody here we just introduced the elephant metaphor right so we’re we’re all in a dark room right and we’re touching the elephant but maybe there’s two elephants and we’re giving them the same name right right and it’s like ten elephants right maybe maybe everybody has their own elephant right like so so and then and then we start arguing like what’s the elephant like and and then then it’s like well okay don’t touch my elephant bro like like maybe maybe maybe like these elephants are all body parts of a bigger elephant right but but instead of like naming the bigger elephant we identify the body part as the whole body right right and and like that’s two two directions right like so one is down and the other one is up right so that’s the layer of ontology that you that you’re talking about like and and these these these questions aren’t easy well and the whole the whole point of that whole elephant metaphor right the open-ended teleology yeah the reason it’s framed that way is it’s meant to be a synthetic term right synthesis of two counter right emanation and and emergence right it’s like you can’t yeah to be fair like all naming that is just emanational done by a person is bad naming no no no no no no no no no no no no synthetic no you can get lucky like there’s a you can get you can get lucky that’s one fact but but look there’s a fundamental difference between saying platonic thought and neo-platonic thought one is possible and the other is not i’m not saying sounds open-ended because i’m not saying there aren’t better and worse i’m just saying all of them are fundamentally degrading in in i don’t think they’re degrading i don’t i don’t i don’t i don’t i don’t believe that at all i i mean i think i think that’s entropy doesn’t exist on certain names yes i can say that is less likely that it has better resistances not that it doesn’t exist no no there’s things that are outside of time there are definitely things yes absolutely when we say the word platonic we no longer use numa as a word so when we read play dough is eternal okay like some angels are eternal god is outside of time yeah but it’s also not this is what’s there like at creation like like he’s also outside of time okay right right well well well their generation of the word we use to describe emergent phenomena is also outside of time i’m confused no the proposition words right like the yeah yeah the the confusion is around propositions propositions are based in language language is based in materiality materiality is subject to entropy therefore any words you use to describe something are subject to entropy that doesn’t mean they have to succumb to entropy because they can change over time and so while the greeks had different words for these things there is a translation and that’s not true for all languages by the way it might be true for most languages and most words in most languages but it’s not true for all of them which is really weird right because it gives you the sense that maybe these and and some things because entropy exists and so if there are no more polar bears right that concept goes away the concept of a white bear that that lives in the super cold climate it eats seals is gone because there aren’t any anymore right and and and so both are subject to decay in some sense but that doesn’t mean they have to decay that you know the fact that they can change right this goes back to the branches well you have a branch we you know we start we start using the word gnosis and then it just so happens that in in a twist of ridiculous irony it splits up and now we have seven different you know meanings for the term gnosis but actually the concept is still there you are literally describing what i was describing which is that you have an open-ended teleology no it’s not no it’s not no the teleology is not no no the teleology well yes the teleology is directed towards the pattern that’s changing no the pattern is not changing how is the pattern not you just said you can adapt and translate like above is always above dude like i don’t understand i don’t understand like i’m having it never changing right i mean humans humans like they’re kind of changing but actually when we talk about humans they’re not changing and like this is the problem with language right people go humans and they go oh yeah well humans are so similar that we’re all pretty much alike and we know what we mean by human and then any idiot can take five seconds and and destroy that thesis really easily right because you can go well if someone’s missing most of their brain are they human right and then do it what if somebody just doesn’t have the iq are they still human right what what if they what if they have the iq but they don’t have arms and legs right deconstruction techniques to cross the boundaries yeah right right but but at the abstraction layer which is what we’re talking about there’s definitely a human there’s definitely a human and we can we can argue about where those boundaries are but those are the branches again but the fact is the trunk still exists like the fact that you can lop off a branch or two does not affect the trunk right and so sure the branches that you’re that you’re lopping off are definitely branches and maybe some of them aren’t optional although maybe you don’t know which so maybe you shouldn’t be cutting branches chesters and fence right but but ultimately this trunk is still there either way like you know you have the fire in the cypress forest which i saw right and there’s still a tree there man and and and will the tree continue to grow is still up in the air in the forest i was in according to the people i was talking to they’re like yeah we don’t know if this one’s going to survive but you can see it anyway while it’s still alive because we know it’s a it’s alive right now right and and we don’t know if it’ll be alive next year right we don’t know and we don’t necessarily know when that is that came out in thunder bay no one knows what consciousness is and when it begins and ends fair enough right but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t something to the concept now i think this is a stupid word but whatever you always get into this thing with with words but that doesn’t mean those concepts aren’t there and that’s the tlc argument so in the same way that platenism exists in neoplatenism cannot not not not redeemable it’s actually not redeem you can’t you can’t come up with a set of things to make neoplatenism reasonable and a reasonable mode of communication you can’t it’s not actually possible okay in that same way i’m making the same argument for tlc versus peterson sphere peterson sphere has something that everything orbits in some sense right or is that is part of this ever expanding because i do think it’s expanding maybe i’m wrong about that but i do think it’s expanding maybe it’s not expanding but it’s definitely outside of peterson now and before it wasn’t for sure right like he tried for years to get famous like this is well known he just for whatever reason is a set of circumstances they come together right and then now there’s a sphere is it expanding i think so maybe not doesn’t matter there is a sphere though there are people as the result of peterson that are now talking about things that that are important and related and what’s what’s the distinction between this little corner and peterson sphere right so the peterson sphere has a center right so the identity is defined around the center a corner is defined around the room so you cannot have a little corner without the room and it only exists in relation to the room and so it doesn’t have its own identity like a corner cannot have an own identity like that like it’s already a wrong name no it’s it’s a geographical metaphor right the southwest of the united states and it’s closed in the southwest of the united states can write and then the context united states but what is the corner of that’s the problem the internet right no it’s not little corner of the internet is the no no it’s actually actually yeah but that it’s not it’s not a corner of the internet as such right because like that’s not the actual reference what do you mean like it’s not an it’s not a reference towards the whole of the internet well the room is the internet it might be a room with you know 10 trillion corners but you’re saying that the title makes no sense because it has no central referent i’m saying it’s a geographical metaphor based on the internet the room is the internet that’s the room that’s what it’s a corner of but does the internet have corners i don’t know like i don’t think so no it definitely it definitely doesn’t that’s the first problem but but also remember like you like open-ended telos there’s nothing more closed than a corner right i mean unless you wanted to find like an actual closed box like you’re not going to get anything more confining more restraining and this is this is your personal versus scape metaphor right and then and then how do they get around it immediately immediately well there’s corner there’s corners in the corner and that obviously makes no sense at all i think that’s just nonsensical self-referential garbage right and and so well why do you like a fractal then there are corners of the corner if it’s if it’s fractal but it’s not that’s the problem have corners i don’t think fractals can have fractals don’t have layers well the oldest the original uh fractal is right you start with a triangle and then at every uh point of the triangle you draw another two triangles joey’s got it right nobody puts baby in the corner of a corner like nobody i agree nobody puts baby in the corner of a corner nobody puts something valuable there is that the point no the rep the reference is uh uh dirty dancing nobody puts baby in a corner right but but but see it’s very closed ended and because it’s closed ended then people feel trapped and so now you have to create corners of corners but what you’re doing is fracturing you’re not fracking or you just leave the corner you know that was kind of if it’ll let you otherwise if you talk to paul vander clay if you respond to a video of his if you’re friends with him you’re automatically in no matter what automatically and you know you can’t get out but this this is this is the racism argument like oh my god you’re identifying me by my race by my skin color and it’s like look at your skin color like that’s a valid category to apply you and and so i i i realized the word category is is amazing because it’s related to accuser and and a category is an accusation i think like it is an imposed identity like it’s like you are that like i’m i’m just gonna treat you as that that’s what a category is which is evil which is what that’s on the other you could say uh i am of the category female now i just decided right yeah well that’s that’s auto-naming right like autonomous right like yes that’s why that’s why that’s bad we know that’s bad because again we outsource our sanity which means we outsource part of our identity and that’s the problem i know you can’t sit there and that’s the argument i’m making well i’m so confused okay okay go go make your argument again now now like i want to hear you weave it in now well because if you’re outsourcing your identity right and your identity is formed at least in this instance by the relationships that you hold with a group of people and the ideas that you congeal around even if the group of people is peterson and you go with peterson’s fear if you like the name better fine this little corner is an ugly name totally fine i you know but they but they don’t but they weren’t identified like this is my deep point these people who are harping on tlc have one thing in common they do not identify with peterson they don’t agree with him they don’t like him anymore maybe they did once right and zero of them have any other path in right and some of them are too entropic of a name and some of them some of them have tried to claim things like no no i came into verveki there is no awakening from the meaning crisis series at all for real without peterson no really i again i have insider knowledge but also no really it doesn’t happen and so you can’t identify or peugeot nobody finds out about peugeot doesn’t go on his quest to even be understood he’s happy with him and his brother talking their secret symbolic language without peterson it doesn’t happen it will not happen without that it is fully dependent on peterson who is fully dependent upon a bunch of other things which again well that’s the other problem right no no but that’s not a problem because because that’s the argument the argument is without that lightning rod without that in this case great man i don’t like that argument but whatever there’s something to it without that talos right without a referent that’s stable and clear you can’t you can’t properly name the thing you can’t yeah but okay but then isn’t in the same way that verveki it’s certainly his his recording of his lectures is 100 dependent on peterson having done it first and becoming so popular right does that not make verveki and his body of work in the same way that peterson was dependent on a whole plethora of other things to have all that attention on him to become a meaningful center like it feels like now we’re talking about spirits right or blood right to use christian language right so there’s there’s there’s a father right or multiple fathers that spiritually allow you to exist right and those are authorities by the way right like like within with by virtue of their authority you have existence right well well like you know it it goes back to something like the car industry right like somebody creates a car that actually works out for many different reasons there’s all kinds of cars in the early days there’s electric cars are older than anybody realizes right there’s steam powered cars there’s human powered cars and and we’d be able to reasonably identify all of them as cars by the way but like the electric cars were never fast enough right they were too heavy batteries were too heavy but they existed like people had them like you know they but they were never mass produced so at some point somebody mass produces a car and then somebody sees that success and copies it but toyota is not masda is not mercedes is not bmw they’re not the thing they have in common is carnis sure fair right and then we can point at henry ford or whatever we can put any number of people doesn’t even matter at that point but we can point at something and so sure in the wake of the success of peterson however that happens we have a bunch of other car manufacturers coming up with their own cars but for vacay’s not on the same mission as peterson by a long shot peugeot’s not on the same mission they don’t have the same audiences there’s some minor overlap but again the defining feature and i think it is a defining this is the problem it is a defining feature was what joey was talking about earlier these people are rebels they don’t want any structure they don’t want any cooperation they deny cooperation on a regular basis because they’re afraid someone’s going to be in charge or there’s some structure it’s going to impose upon them by judging them and at the same time they’re desperate to be the prodigal son and to get father’s automatic approval and be redeemed which again is ridiculous first you have to acknowledge you did something wrong then you have to repent then you have to come home well you know that’s the tall order they’re not even at step one much less step two and and step three and then step four redemption is not guaranteed and that terrifies people and maybe it should but you got to do the work too and and part of this is you’re part of the other theme you see people don’t want to do the work and maybe they’re not competent and fair enough but they don’t even want to try to do the work and if they see somebody else doing the work they feel judged and fair enough you should feel judged if somebody else is doing work and you’re not i agree but if you’re rebelling against that if you’re upset about that if you’re like ah you’re a mean person or or you’re just trying to destroy things in the middle of building stuff like that you know there’s something wrong at that point right there’s something demonstrably wrong and then at the same time you want to say was this person building stuff as part of tlc see tlc can do things and it’s like now you’re just trying to take credit for something that you refuse to be involved in like that’s ridiculously inappropriate that’s just inappropriate you know and and and that’s not a good i don’t i don’t disagree with you well but that’s what’s happening like that’s actually happening we see that happening i i want to i want to go back to two bodies and i think like i don’t know if i want to use the word person or soul or or whatever but but those things have inherent quality of identity right like like a human right they they assume an identity because they have a body right and a body has a structure and and that that that structure as a body is in relationship to outside of the body right so in relationship to the external world that identity of that body gets identified but you’re making a mistake when you extrapolate that to a group of people right because that like if this little corner gets approached by peterson or whatever right then you could say well can it respond like does it have the capacity to to be an actor in the world and and and take it the whole body with it in in its action because if it can’t it’s it’s not a body at least in relationship to peterson at that point right like like you can’t you can’t say it’s a valid body and so yes that identity gets assigned by by the by the relationship with with the external world but but there needs to be a cohesion of something that is relating to the external world that allows the assumption of an identity because if there’s nothing to that binds that like it cannot hold an identity now you can say well like there’s things and you can you’re using the word healthy right but but there’s things that can will sustain pressure right like it can sustain external pressure and maintain an identity but that’s a completely different problem than having one well but okay fair however at what point are we defining how it’s responding and interacting because every time peterson puts out a new video there’s this huge trickling of behaviors that would not have happened had he not put the video out that are distinct in the nature of the commentary within a certain relational group but they’re not the same response and some of them are in direct opposition to one another and that’s same inside of your body no no no see and this is where my objection with opponent processing comes in why are these people enamored with verveki’s ridiculous opponent processing idea first of all it’s ridiculous i’m sorry it’s just ridiculous we ourselves do not oppose one another the fact that there are limited resources and we switch the allocation does not mean there’s opposition and and and just technically biologically the way verveki describes it is just wrong i’m sorry it’s just wrong all right so it’s just wrong there is a mechanism that decides actually where resources go and sometimes that mechanism gets things wrong and sometimes it goes haywire whatever i don’t care i have an immune system disease i know way more about this than you’d think way more than i wanted to ever i too have an immune system disease i know i know so sometimes the thing that reallocates your resources and does your signaling gets it wrong and so you can say that look there’s opponent processing going on when i have an immune system flare-up i agree that’s an error that’s a disease it is an actual dis-ease right there is ease where there is no opponent going on within me and there is a dis-ease when i am one part of me is opposing the other part of me this is not a good thing yeah right right this is not a good thing and so when you have a group like that in quote opponent processing and van ukele has said publicly on at least one occasion i prefer opponent processing to cooperative processing sorry mark i go well i have a problem with that like i think that doesn’t have a good aspect to it at all like you want to cooperate and you want to encourage others to cooperate part of the whole idea even if it’s a freaking illusion and none of it is is is none of it has any aspect to it that is useful christianity unifies like that’s the and then it’s not the only thing that unifies by far but but the fact of the unity is important the removal of opposition is actually the goal so this opponent processing thing is automatically anti-christian automatically well and i definitely prefer the term cooperative processing i think that gets much closer to what is taking place however within cooperative processing you do have opponents you do have energies that are directed against each other no it’s not smooth and it and and and it needs that lack of smoothness because you need contrast to see but opposition is a whole different thing like again you can move resources around and maybe or maybe you should maybe some days you should pay more attention to jacob than you pay to paul vanderke maybe some days you pay more attention to jonathan pidgeot then you pay to peterson like sure but that’s not opposition even though right well wait but but but let me let me now that feels that feels so what do you do when you a snake bites your hand and it gets poisoned you cut it off or suck it out well but like you you cut it off or tie your arm and go and look for anti-venom or the hand right is now corrupt killing you it’s more than corrupt right it’s it’s it’s terminal right and so you have to remove the body part that is terminal and like that’s what your body does like if there’s something in opposition like a cancer right to your body your body removes it and like when when your body is incapable of of removing the parts of the body that oppose the body right like this also true for the mind right like if you cannot unify your mind you will die like that’s that’s all this that’s stuck in the bible is there’s the satan is taking over like there’s there’s a principality of of anti-unity that that is disrupting your health and and and so like the whole christian message is everything needs to be under one name and it needs to worship that name and in the worship of that name they will find the unity that will produce health and so like health is a consequence is it like a second order effect of the unity uh yeah i don’t i don’t disagree with anything you’re saying i’m confused as to why okay so what i’m saying is that within a unity you can still have things that oppose each other no no no you can have things that are in conflict with one another to some extent but that i see there’s a difference between that and and opposition right so there’s a different using like synthetic synthetic right but look there’s a difference between me effectively yelling and screaming occasionally at sally joe that no that’s not that’s not correct when you’re drawing this and i know nothing about drawing we all know that i can barely do circles on my board obviously you can see that uh you’re you’re drawing this wrong right from no we don’t want to see your work we don’t want to work with you we don’t want to help you that’s opposition what i’m doing is not opposing her i’m putting her in tension with my ideas which are usually wrong when it comes to sally unfortunately for me uh and and that’s what’s creating the art it’s the tension not opposition it’s not opposition that’s creating that it’s not opposition that allows you to stand it’s tension and tension is a different thing that’s why we have a different word and and and yes i think there’s tension in the penison sphere for sure right and again the verveki people do not want do not want to hang out with the symbolic world people or with the vendor vendor clown people they don’t want that and that’s fine like i don’t care doesn’t i i don’t want to hang out with them either because we’re not hanging out with them anymore they because they allowed a bunch of snakes to come in and dictate the way that the community went and then we got we we got put in a situation where we had to leave right which is fine by me uh life is better but that that that it was not tension that was opposition right it didn’t make us better it was done you know very unexpectedly that was opposition and and that’s the problem and so i i think it’s also important to realize that now we’re going back to ontologies and layers right opposition within a greater whole is better termed tension no no like i i don’t i don’t even know like i like i want to do an ontology move right so when when we’re saying right like a person evil they’re possessed by you right now they the willful participation in in that possession is evil right but but but we’re making a distinction between the personhood and the quality of personhood and the being that they’re participating right the relation in other words the relationship to the evil right so evil can come down upon you and if you fight it you are not evil if you embrace it you are what changed the relationship and so when your relationship is one of opposition you are denying or rebelling against the unity you are in rebellion right when you start making statements like you don’t really mean that or you you know without knowing the person in particular right or or uh you know well there’s no way you know that person’s mentally ill are you sure because i’ve actually talked to them and i know you haven’t talked to them and you’re making a claim about what i know about somebody that you definitely know nothing about i like these are the sorts of that’s opposition for the sake of opposition that’s not tension that’s not challenging me right challenging me would be how do you know they’re mentally ill do you have evidence and of course i always do but whatever we’ll we’ll pretend like i occasionally uh pull that out when i when i don’t have evidence because that’s never happened but so we’ll have to pretend uh yeah i’m pretty serious when i say things right but but automatically assume when anybody says something they’re wrong because you don’t like it and there’s a lot of people doing that a lot there’s a lot of snakes not three or four right that’s a problem that’s where there is no unity and they and those people are deliberately trying to make sure there’s no unity deliberately knowingly in some cases unconsciously maybe in others right like like maybe people don’t realize they’re threatening people on camera while holding a knife or something like because that happens might have happened let me go grab my knife you have a real knife right he’s got a good knife right but but but but it’s clear what has happened like clearly you’re not a pacifist at that point like clearly you’re not seeing yourself clearly for example right and so clearly you’re in opposition you are denying the unity on purpose tension would be explaining to me what you mean i don’t like your framing uh your word usage is bad those are those are all fair ways to be in tension with somebody so yeah i think that if if if you’re in the unity there’s no opposition and i think i think i know what tension is i think tension is a body part being unclear of its position in the body right so now there’s there’s a level of doubt of of the participation in the talos and then you have tension right but like there’s also something where the talos is shared right like for example like what a government should do is like okay like we need to feed the homeless and we need to build this road and it’s like well yeah obviously one part of the government is going to say i need money here and the other part is saying there but they don’t have to be in opposition like they can be in opposition and that’s actually what’s happening now like that there’s actual opposition but but they don’t have to and they can still do exactly the same thing well and how’s it resolved how’s it resolved and resolvable opposition is only resolvable in war guys i hate to break it to you opposition is technically only resolvable with war you want a war that’s how you get a war you start talking about opposition you start talking about binaries you’re talking about right you you divide the world that way right yeah but that’s war where two people don’t want to fight yeah and how do you resolve tension fair enough the thing that resolves tension is the authority the authority comes down right and then maybe the authority is not we’ll say the final word oddly enough on that because there might be more than one authority right ultimately even the authority may bow to the leader they say well i you know this is definitely wrong but you know what for the sake of unity even though the authority says this is the wrong thing to do we have to follow the leader we have it’s not optional we know the leader’s making a mistake but bringing leadership down and this goes back to my culture war argument bringing the leadership down is not the solution this is why i think sam harris’s talk about coming down the peak and going back up not that it’s wrong it strays into dangerous territory because it says it’s valid for you to regress or go back even though all these people say we can’t go back weird it’s valid right to do that in certain circumstances but actually the thing we need is unity and the only way to maintain unity is to some extent ignore some small number of mistakes right and but on the other hand push back on certain other mistakes and we’ve lost the ability to tell the difference between those two things because at some point we’re just like well you know i think the most you know the the the the most important tell of a good person versus a bad person or a good president versus a bad president is whether or not they’ve had sexual relations with that woman right whereas well i think it’s it’s whether or not they you know whether or not they had bad business dealings in the past you know or or what what i think is whether or not they said they would do something that they didn’t do right and all right and this goes on and on and on but clearly some of these are more important than others right clearly there’s a relevance realization process that needs to happen right relevance realization just prioritization or ordering at some point it’s not only that but that some point relevance realization is tied up in prioritizing and ordering things and saying this is more important than that right that’s got to be part of relevance realization somewhere and so that’s the skill we’ve lost and i think that’s why you know verveki’s rediscovering it peterson kind of talks about it in different terms right uh jonathan peugeot uses the problem of attention right or the world is attention right all the they’re saying roughly the same thing not exactly the same they’re all talking about the same thing and again that’s why it’s the sphere you start looking the overlaps between verveki’s work and what peterson says and they’re pretty much 100 with slightly slight differences in language and slight differences in focus same with peugeot right and peugeot knows this and kind of says it up front i would say although you know he’s he’s heavily focused obviously on the symbolism uh whereas verveki’s heavily focused on the science but like that’s different from opposition opposition is like these presumptions that things are wrong or presumption that leadership itself is bad right or or presumptions that you know who are you to be an authority right i’m just gonna i’m just gonna rebel against the authority or the leader or both because they’re there i don’t have a good reason i i have hypothetical reasons like in the future they may do x credit it’s like well maybe and maybe that’s inevitable but maybe there’s no choice like maybe you don’t have a better option but to go down that road with that leader or with that authority and like i i want to add this idea of the left hand and the right hand right where there’s things that are internal that need to be maintained and then there’s the relationship to the outside and those have different rules right and so when you start using the right hand right in position of force or agency inside the body which is what an operation is right you mess things up right like you you disease yourself you you hurt yourself now sometimes with the snake example that that’s necessary right but but when we’re stuck in in an age of gnosis where we think we can know things and and that we can use tools to to organize things in the world we start using right hand actions inside the body and and in instead of handling things with with grace right and giving uh the this body part um that has its identity by virtue of being part of the body right it it’s the opportunity to recalibrate within the body and and well like move out of its tension and and and become peaceful again right like of of one piece um if if you if you remove that process right or you impose that process it’s like yeah i’m gonna make you do that by law right now now we’re getting into problems and like that’s what everybody’s doing right like that’s that’s what naming people is like like i’m gonna assign you or myself this identity because now i’m gonna pick this place in the body that i haven’t earned right like like i didn’t grow into it i i don’t i don’t have the intimate connections that that tissue needs to its environment and i’m gonna role play literally that role and that’s what what everybody’s doing and i think that time is the great confusion here people see things come into existence and they think they can last and not all things that come into existence can last they see that well i can just identify as a woman or non-binary or whatever and they see it kind of works and people will kind of go along with it for a little while but then they want more of course because we all do right and and then as that tries to expand out it hits the limits and the next thing you know you’ve got a fight over over how to how to label bathrooms right which which turns into a real effect in the world because suddenly in north carolina they have to spend you know you know literally tens or hundreds of millions of dollars because every business has to make a change all to settle some person’s fantasy and and and that’s a big uh that’s a that’s a big problem right is that why are we running into this issue we don’t need to we could just not do that right the problem doesn’t have to exist in some sense and and that’s that’s for me that’s part of what’s wrapped up in this is that you can’t you can’t just name things and expect other people to go along and and the fact that anybody won’t go along even one person is already a problem like if people don’t like it then maybe they don’t have a home maybe they don’t have a group maybe they’re maybe they’ve sticked themselves in domicile over and over again and they want to be the prodigal son they want daddy’s approval or whatever but it’s not going to be there and and and that’s more the danger for me is like yeah and and and we know we know we we three know personally uh you know snakes that are that are definitely making sure that that unity breaks apart anytime it looks like it’s going to unify people show up to make sure it ain’t going to unify and maybe they do that under the guise of helping or whatever but uh you know and that’s not one or two people it’s more than that and and i i know it’s hard to believe but but that is the you know that is the problem yeah well and i would say that it’s a universal problem it’s a it’s not universal what’s well maybe universal um perennial it’s a perennial it’s a perennial pattern for sure uh that we that we get into when we’re in rebellion but the alternative is just to suck it up sacrifice realize that you know that the head’s not always going to agree with you and you might even be right but it doesn’t matter because the head is leading more than just you and that that’s that’s the thing right like okay i i think for sure mentioned this about peter and him being the only person being called satan by jesus right and it and it’s like okay so he’s calling his second right or or his descendant satan and it’s like what was satan towards god satan was god’s second right and and there’s there’s something really really powerful there right so that or or erin and moses right like like erin was moses second like right erin was the voice of moses literally and when the voice disconnected from the head and then strange stuff starts happening so so when when peter gets disconnected from jesus like he thinks and and so we are we so if we’re talking about bodies right and and about heads like that’s that’s the nature of the head right so you can say well the body is following a telos right like like it’s upheld by it tells and then and then the head has to worship that telos because if if it stops worshiping and it starts looking down it it starts becoming self-referential like it starts naming itself instead of receiving its name right and like like this was like i started seeing it as like holy cow and i think that that points to what i would say is the larger issue we have been told that we have capabilities that we do not have we have been told that we are smarter than we are we’ve been told that that we anybody can be a leader that’s the biggest bunch of bs ever ever foisted on a society we’ve been told that authorities aren’t authorities when in fact they are and that you can be an authority because yeah we’ve got the internet because the age of gnosis propositional knowledge makes you an authority so the guy with the most wikipedia pages in his head is an authority or something right like uh and and that’s that’s false it’s a lie right it denies the hierarchy it’s more equality doctrine bs where this is very much equality doctrine stuff it’s very much oh well you’re you’re as equal to a phd i you know and and look i know a lot of phds a lot of them are dumbasses and shouldn’t have been able to get a phd like i can point out why but also i still gotta listen to them like you know like even though i know they’re wrong and and you just don’t have a choice about that and it’s really that’s what people want a choice about things that they don’t actually have a choice about and when they try to assert their choice they actually contribute to the destruction of the world they contribute to the flood and they contribute to the chaos and i think that’s actually what this is about and because the world is self-similar fractal that idea of self-naming of referential naming of a naming that immediately splits itself whether it’s you know religion it’s not a religion or a corner of corner of corner of corners that’s a tell no this is a corruption it’s bad and wrong it’s a tell immediately it doesn’t take any time to know oh no no no this can’t be good can’t be can’t have any goodness in it will be redeemed by god maybe i don’t know i’m not god i don’t know but that’s not our job it’s not our job to decide but it is our job to act and and we have to act with the information that we have we see something like that that’s clearly not good we should act in you know in a way that’s appropriate right and try to bring about the good rather than try to feed the thing right you don’t want to feed the the the bad thing that’s you you don’t want to you don’t want to fall to the woke in essence right you don’t want to say oh yeah absolutely you can you can name yourself whatever you want you can you can you can just be non-binary in fact you can because you can do that and you’re equal to everybody else in the world they have to play along because that’s effectively what we’re doing and i’m like well first of all this is work with me i don’t have to play along if you want to make me you can try i don’t think it’ll end well for you because i i’m rather well physically trained uh to kill people and uh if you try to force me to do something you better shoot me uh because this is gonna work any other way but then of course you won’t be able to force me to do anything because i’ll be dead you know the cooperation is inherent this is very similar to the argument i was trying to make in the sense that for example if tlc is just a group of relationships and interactions people have around a certain set of figures and then you’re sustaining those relationships and and connections then it seems like you would necessarily have to submit to the title or else divorce yourself from the relations and networks right like a divorce isn’t a divorce unless you like properly cut off the relationship i don’t i well well again you know are you saying that every person i talk to i’m part of whatever identities they care to to make me part of no i would say that if you are automatically i’ll do it defined as i’ll i’ll do it i’ll stop talking to vanderklae entirely i’ll never talk to him again i’ll never look at a video i will if that’s what it takes to get out of this madness i will do that i will i don’t know why i should have to but like if if people are going to impose on me repeatedly over and over again well yeah then i then you’ll leave me with no choice i don’t that’s good for paul vanderklae i i i don’t think it is and that’s not the point i’m making i’m making a point about what forms membership in something in the first place and then you’re arguing on the point of like self-definition and that’s where i’m like well wait doesn’t no no membership is subscription america is an unhealthy thing what does it take for me to no longer consider myself an american yeah but but member membership is i’m being forced with the title of american no you’re not no no you’re not you can move you can leave anytime you that’s what people miss like no no you can why can’t i say why can’t i stay here with the relationships and in the geography but just say because because this is an american because there’s hard constraints in the world right now now i don’t on the internet you don’t have the same nature of relationships so again if i watch somebody’s videos why does that put me in their group like what if i disagree with the videos why am i actually part of a group that i know i disagree with that i publicly disagree with in many cases obviously i’m not like i can watch ben shapiro and go ben’s a lunatic because sometimes i think he’s a lunatic i can do that that doesn’t put me in the bend in the daily wire lovers group or in the daily wire group it doesn’t put me there that and that’s what the the quality of the relationship the intimacy actually matters and that’s why the quality of the relationship is the one quality that all of these relationships actually have in common is still peterson it’s still not anything else it’s not closed-ended so it can’t be a corner and it doesn’t splinter right because peterson’s sphere i argue is ever expanding it as an open-ended t-loss actually and tlc cannot have that property again that’s totally fine if it’s a better name that’s fine i’m not trying to i’m using the term tlc just because it’s been what’s used i think it’s highlighting a pattern that exists out there in the world that we interact or do not interact or interact in a certain way with or don’t interact with a certain way with you can call it peterson’s sphere you can call it whatever right i’m just trying to make i’m trying to clarify you can’t call it whatever you can’t call it whatever and you can’t include everything in it and and again that’s really where the argument is that don’t agree with peterson you know fundamentally aren’t in the sphere because they don’t agree with peterson but it’s it’s more important right so like nick said something important right so there is a quality of connection right that defines something then the name is the quality of connection like that has to be the name and if you cannot if you cannot find the essence of that name then that quality of connection isn’t real because it’s not identifiable so yes i’m completely with you that there is something like that right so for example seeker right like seeker would be a quality of connection that is shared by a lot of people who want to be identified in the tlc but that’s not tlc that’s seeker right like that identity already exists it is shared outside of whatever sphere or whatever like that that’s well not a universal but like a non-conditional category or something right it’s just like you you have a universal relationship towards something else and and that’s recognizable by everybody and therefore we can say that that is a quality that you exhibit and therefore we we can classify you as that and and to go back to the america thing right like like at a certain point america is imposed by force right so like the reason that you have that identity is because slavery like right right right well well and and and ethos plays a plays a part here and again like and this this has been asked many times what’s the ethos and if you can’t name one maybe if you can’t describe one rather maybe your name’s invalid right because that would still always be my argument it would always be my argument if if you can’t outline a clear ethos if you can’t outline anything that that is identifiable in your description then you don’t have a thing right so the fact that there are relationships in the world does not give you the right to name them i’m sorry it just doesn’t i go to the grocery store you can’t say i’m part of the whatever name you’re going to put on the grocery store you’re part of the grocery shoppers i might be categorized that way in grocery shoppers but okay okay but but okay you’re you’re part of the grocery shoppers so that’s that’s a completely useless identity that’s the problem is that not all identities have the ability to function in the world it’s useless under the vast majority of contexts sometimes it’s very useful well but not but not if you if you’re not bound to that identity like like right yeah right like if it’s just a convenient identity and yes at the point identity yes well right but at the point that you identify might buy that so that when you’re trying to reference that group of things you have something there so other people know that you’re talking about that group of things yeah but yeah but but but if you put me in that group like i don’t want to be in that group i remove myself at the point that you put me in it right right and so you like it it is an impossible thing to put me in that group right and grow and again grocery shoppers have an ethos to get groceries right so what about the people that that that protest outside of grocery stores but don’t actually shop there because that’s what the argument is there’s a bunch of people protesting outside the grocery store that say you’re all protesters out there at the grocery store and i’m like no i’m not i’m a grocery shopper like i’m a cooperator i’m not an opponent and the funny part is like part of this is they’re pissed off that we’re not oppressing them or or opposing them or like you know they’re not or opposing them or imposing upon them like that’s part of this whole argument and i’m like yeah and and you don’t want anybody to do that so why is there a problem like you don’t want to be part of a group very bizarre right right right right well i mean i mean here’s joey right tlc equals these little consumers of incest content right but but you can see how the abstraction in order to get people in the group you get so abstract that the abstractions becomes useless in in the process of identification in the process of contrasting this person from that person or this group of people from that group of people it just falls apart because again the symbolic world folks are nice and happy and they’re doing what they’re doing and they don’t want anything to do with these other groups for the most part i mean there might be some like i want i want to go into the symbolic people actually a little bit right because bichon didn’t want to have them right and you’re gonna love this because it’s afraid that they’re gonna be a cult like right and and like what why is he afraid of that well he’s afraid because he he doesn’t believe literally he doesn’t believe that he can be that right and and so that that means that there’s something wrong there right like like either he’s he’s not like contained in something higher right that allows him to be ahead of the role of a head right yeah yeah well i mean this is this is the critique right this is the critique i have for for pastor paul and and for peterson and for vacay and for peugeot is they don’t want to take responsibility for leadership as such and look that that’s a valid thing like being responsible as a leader being a leader is a huge sacrifice unbelievably huge sacrifice as anybody who’s actually done a leadership knows right like it’s unbelievably huge sacrifice you can’t trust people anymore even people used to trust you can’t trust them anymore in the same way your relationships to everybody around you that has anything to do with that with that automatically changes like there are some major you know major major sacrifices there and that’s really what we’re getting at is that no no you guys are making the problem worse by not stepping up and everybody says there’s a crisis of leadership but they don’t they also don’t want leaders at the same time and i’m like well there’s a crisis of leadership and you don’t want leaders you’re you’re in heaven like i don’t understand why you’re complaining about that at that point because yeah you know well what they that’s usually because what they mean by there’s a crisis of leadership is i should be the leader uh well that’s usually what they mean right well first answer first question no responsibility for others which definitely doesn’t cause the problem uh or the crisis of leadership well well look luke’s asking why you haven’t been around the various areas whatever the hell that even means i haven’t been interacting with you in years so answer that and i’ll answer his question to me well i’ve been very busy for the last six months but um i’m always happy to have a conversation honestly mark and manuel one we had a very long regular uh interaction and they keep up with me in the discord so when i do have free time it’s like oh i’ll go talk to those guys um that’s really it it’s really valuable when i and i don’t want to hold on manuel let me let me get to luke’s other thing can you elaborate your understanding of leadership dude i’ve done this like a million times this isn’t hard pvk says he’s not a leader he says that you keep saying he is he doesn’t want that title okay i think jacob’s comment on this was freaking clear and he’s actually correct i agree with him with his assessment if you try to make somebody into something they do not want you are trying to subjugate them to your will please do not do that the fact that some people are leading by example is ridiculous right it’s ridiculous everybody is always doing things in the world they’re always available for exemplification the question is do you call attention to that are you on youtube in the town square do you run like an organization a church a men’s group right like those things start to uh stray into deliberate intentional doing of something now if at the same time you’re not taking responsibility for the thing you’re doing then you’re not a leader like or at least you’re not a good leader yeah you know you can’t on the one hand say people are following me but i’m not a leader explicitly which was done on twitter recently in the past week that’s ridiculous people are following me but i’m not when you’re leading by isn’t that the people forcing the leadership role onto the person that doesn’t want to be a leader it depends on the circumstances if the person has a youtube channel and they’re talking on the youtube channel and interacting with their audience and it has to be both of those things i think like if you’re just pretending to be a transmission device and your face isn’t on youtube right and you’re not trying to like build a brand for yourself and stuff and fair enough some people and there are lots of people like that on youtube by the way and and in newspapers and other places right then yeah your culpability certainly goes down because you’re just kind of transmitting when you’re interacting with people and when you’re encouraging people and this is jacob’s argument not mine but i agree with him 100 when you’re saying hey i’m gonna if you if you emerge something i’ll support you and then you don’t like that’s a deeply irresponsible thing to do whether you want to classify it as a lie or not it is by the way but whatever i don’t care it’s still irresponsible and wrong like do not do that please ever any time you do that you are wrong and you need to repent by the way for doing that you do not say to people oh i’m going to help you out and then not help them out like that’s just a crappy thing to do to anybody under any circumstance and so sure if you find somebody in the woods and you grab them and say you’re now the village leader well yeah that’s your ridiculousness but if if there’s somebody up on the pulpit for example or like on a pole in the middle of town screaming at you and then everybody goes you’re definitely our leader that’s on the guy on the pole man that ain’t on the people down below there’s no way there’s no way and it’s hard to discern because there are these conditions but also it’s not hard to discern because there are these conditions and i think i think we also have to distinguish the leading by example because like what are you doing when you’re leading by example you’re embodying a spirit right and so at that point where does the glory go to does it go to you or the spirit that inspires others and it’s not you i can tell you that like the glory goes to that spirit and and taking ownership or credit for for what that spirit does is dishonest right well there’s so many inverted arguments in this it’s not it’s not an inverted argument look you build a youtube channel you interact with them you formed a group rather explicitly like period end of state there’s no question of formation you put out a a whole series of youtube videos 50 hours or 52 hours actually i think right and then you hold a freaking meditation session afterwards online right you know on the lot on a live stream you formed a group this is no this isn’t ambiguous this isn’t again this isn’t like i was walking along in the woods suddenly there were 10 people following me i’m not saying that can’t happen i’m saying that didn’t happen here so i understand your hypothetical but you’re you’re fantasizing we know what happened we can observe it i can point well okay with verveky verveky is fairly as a lot more discernible i would say than paul is oh yeah um paul’s that’s why we put this external external output is much more of him just thinking out loud now he did form church groups he is a leader under the conditions that he recognizes he’s playing the role right right um but that’s a different thing or he set up his his meetups initially which ended up becoming estuary groups someone set up meetups i don’t think it was paul i like joey’s comment here manuals embodiment comment and spot on my favorite thing ever said right well and this goes to the point luke who’s taking credit well all kinds of people are taking credit for all kinds of things and some of them are snakes and you don’t know that and that’s the problem is that and this is well known and well studied in psychology by the way if you have a leaderless group the most psychotic people will take over over and that is the problem when you when you have a locus of people gathering around something there is an automatic inherent responsibility somewhere i’m not going to say where but there is one somewhere to make sure that that doesn’t become a cult right or a mob or any number of things and so there has to be an authority somewhere that does something maybe the authority announces a leader right or maybe another leader comes in and says this group should not exist either way the rebels are going to say yeah either of those answers is unacceptable to me i know they will that’s how you know they’re rebels okay okay so so um i need i need to go over this because like paul van der glay literally did claim a credit for being part of my success story like literally in relation to me on video so and he was corrected by you and said you need to give the glory to god paul so he doesn’t do that luke i wish he did that would be better but it’s not that way that sucks by the way i’m unhappy about it but it happened and it’s on video so whatever i can’t see the comments can’t see the comment is this a youtube it’s all three no it’s on the comments in the on the they’re on the right oh i have it on the private chat tab that helps oh we’re not typing there you missed all the good comments oh i haven’t seen any of this holy crap oh no well joey’s been where’s joe i saw the ones you guys were highlighting at the bottom he’s not a rebel he’s on the navigating patterns channel where everybody belongs um this is how you know rebels man you can tell them right away i want to be rando i want to be this i want to be there it’s my stream damn it here like we can just this is this is uh his response to you there we go i uh sorry i’m trying to read through i’m trying to read through them rapidly oh no that that that’s gonna take a long time but again i again look there’s a i the funny the really funny part about all this which just honest to god just makes me laugh every time i think about it paul vanu clay had these critiques that i have given to paul he takes them very seriously and has said on a video i don’t know if you guys didn’t watch it or you missed it has said boy mark says i’m not taking responsibility for leadership and he might be right about that and i’m worried that that is the case and you know good for paul for noticing that although i would say since that happened because that was quite some time ago uh he’s he’s he’s gone away from that as the video with manuel uh over the in the netherlands there kind of showed was that netherland or you guys in germany at that point netherlands i was in the netherlands it was in the net that’s what i thought i thought you were still in netherlands yeah i mean that’s that’s what that showed is that well he’s kind of taking credit for things or trying to uh you know maybe in spite it doesn’t no no like it doesn’t even matter whether he’s trying to or not right like it’s in in his subconscious right that’s what’s happening and and he gave expression to it and whether that was with his intent or not doesn’t matter right but it’s true means that there’s a spirit inside of him that that pushes him that way and and he’s going to give expression to that spirit like that’s right right and and and and luc’s luc’s not worried about spiritual snakes you should be but how about actual non-spiritual snakes because we got those two dude like you guys keep discounting the snake part right if they dupe me they dupe me yeah but what if they dupe everybody and what if they dupe you and you harm somebody as a result you just can take no responsibility for that too like i don’t understand because your actions affect other people like you’re on this planet with everybody especially they want to claim this little corner like yeah right and you want to claim the little corner and then you want to say oh my eyes my actions are isolated you can’t have both you really got to kind of pick one and that’s really what this is about what a what where is constraint because there is some somewhere like it can’t be unconstrained everywhere and and and that’s part of the problem is that you know and i do think it’s it’s a recognition problem like when when you have a place with lots of snakes like like when cnn actually just turns into mostly talking heads with agendas and you point it out like there’s almost no journalism going on on cnn it takes a long time for people to believe you because and i’ve heard people actually make this argument well it can’t be 90 percent of the people on cnn no it was and it was like 15 years ago and you didn’t notice then either right and it just got more and more obvious and worse and worse and worse but actually the whole time those snakes were there the snakes didn’t change at all so i i was your site you be you became able to see the snakes were there the whole time so i i want to i want to go back to this thing that nick was was uh talking about between relations and connections and a loose network thing right because the way i think about that is where you you bind yourself to certain relationships right and and right they’ve then that’s the authority that designates who you are right informs you so like when i hear you say there is this right like isn’t the relevant part the binding not the existence of of the connection right i would although i would say yes yes that is what is giving it its identity is the binding um as far as i think that’s why it’s i think that’s what i was also trying to make the argument of of like it’s if it’s defined as the binding given through these relationships then you submit to the binding or you break the relationship don’t give binding like your will does that your will gives the binding not that that that that’s why again you can you can be in opposition to the daily wire and still watch the daily wire are you a daily wire guy like i don’t but now you’re making a are you okay fair enough so the will right you have some kind of relation that has a has a quality right and your will is in many ways defining the quality of that relationship and the existence right or the participation or the continued participation in it unless you’re possessed sometimes right but you’re possessed or otherwise forced into the identity yeah right right right and then people like that your identity at that point like well i think christianity says it’s not your identity at that point literally right and and that’s the problem is that people like nice clean answers we don’t have them and i and i want to take joey seriously your high openness people have repeatedly caused me some level of personal harm by their negligence and lack of discernment it needs to be a balance exactly and it’s the balance it’s the work it’s the work that everybody’s rebelling i don’t want to do that work that’s hard i agree that it’s hard nicole so does glc revolve around pvk that’s a good question because if we believe it does i can understand why you believe he should be responsible uh well he’s the one naming it and saying it i don’t know actually he definitely boosted it i don’t think well a lot of people said it on accident including myself he adopted it but like the most disgusting part that i experienced was for veki welcoming people into this little corner like that was right oh my god like welcome to this little corner he was saying and it’s like what what gives you the authority to welcome people into the thing and i mean he’s you know it’s slavery again it’s slavery like oh you’re in what videos i think it was him vander clay and some new person and he yeah he did the invitation to the person like he like he tried like that’s that’s magic right like that like that’s he magics dlc and that person into the identity of dlc right explicitly on a video well yeah the two of us were just like what the hell did we even just did that happen like we know john did john do that john wouldn’t do that but he did it’s like i think what makes it what makes it so easy for that conception is that it is in some sense a geographical metaphor it’s like welcome to this it’s like uh you know you meet at a coffee shop and you go welcome to the coffee shop it has that’s the the underlying you know of the grouping no but because because first of all the it’s not geographical now we’re back at the grocery store thing okay no no no but but no there’s there’s a distinction right so because the the coffee shop is owned by someone right so right he can extend the authority to welcome someone in the coffee shop but also the core being welcome in the coffee shop doesn’t grant you privileges or or a title right being part of this little corner is the bestowing of a title right how like if like like oh welcome now you’re part of this little corner of the internet too right it’s like let me welcome you into this identity right and and now you it’s not temporarily it’s not temporarily locked like the coffee shop is well it’s not no but but the coffee shop is is not it’s different right you’re welcome right so you’re you’re you’re subjected under the the coffee shop but when you’re part of this little corner there’s no authority that you’re subject to yeah you’re walking you’re walking down the street past a coffee shop as we grabbed you and puts you in there it’s like wait a minute right puts a suit on you and like like like now you have a uniform like right and maybe they and maybe they’re like oh now you need to serve coffee yeah that’s why i’m worse that’s why i’m saying the title the words this little corner has a strong geographical metaphor quality to it in the we don’t have to use coffee shop we could say welcome to this parking lot or welcome to you know i think that’s why people feel so comfortable using it is it they when they say it they’re at least using the title in such a way that they imagine it as not carrying here’s your apron um you know the milk’s in the fridge um make sure you smile and say thank you every time someone comes through the door right well now that might some of that stuff might actually be there and now you really have a problem because you’re sneaking in a geographical metaphor that’s a right a role that you are enforcing upon the person that’s fair that’s a totally fair criticism yeah and that’s that’s what conscription is right but you just imagine that that i conquer your your city and then conscript you right right and and there’s lots of forms of conscription and literally all we’re saying is there is a difference between these things you can discern them from one another you can discern a bad name from a good name you can discern tlc from peterson’s sphere i think they are not of the same quality they do not have the same functionalities right one is easy to understand and totally works and and people can easily go yes the other one i can’t go yes to because there are no bounds it’s too ambiguous and people can snakes can make use of it to hijack it in one direction or another well as people could with peterson’s sphere as well they can use you and your words to justify their snake behavior again it’s like someone tries to bomb a federal building i don’t want the fbi talking to me because because they claim to be part of the same group i don’t want that and i think i think more importantly we go back to the point of health nick right and like this is i mean we go away from the group problem it’s like okay we’re having a problem with discernment right so i want to be and to go back to peterson right like speak the truth or at least don’t lie right like i want to use words that allow me to be in right relationship with reality now let’s say dlc has some right relationship right the thing that you’re claiming with right if i’m using it it might have right relationship because i’m just who i am right you’re you’re you’re like next to god and you can do that right but but the problem is and this you pointed out this right like it it’s not it’s too ambiguous and is thus way too easy to hijack and now you have the memetic it’s not even drift anymore it’s actual memetic control by bad actors that are able to no no but no no don’t don’t don’t don’t think about the bad actors it’s it’s like you said that the identity isn’t stable right right so so you using it as a reference for yourself is unhealthy because you’re you’re using an unstable reference i’m using a reference of where i’m at at the moment which is necessarily going to have a quality of unstableness to it unless it’s in relation to something that is stable and that and that’s the point with the peterson sphere is that there is something that is stable it’s not it’s not that it’s completely stable or completely consistent and reliable right because i’m not a i’m not a sciencey person in that way right but it does have a level of identifiable stability to it and and and it is more like it’s like look you put an audience out there for people to hijack that is irresponsible right and then you tell the snakes go ahead and hijack them i don’t care because i’m not going to lead them i’m not going to be take responsibility for the people that i’ve gathered that to me is dangerous i mean this is what you know this this is our deep thinking of verbeke’s work culture happy to to take control from the top down um right however um well yeah and they’re usually not this type of case sometimes they are all the ones i’ve encountered are actually like auto-didact um controlling of an entire culture that they then ask you to be part of or not um so much more formal in the sense of like it has a clear structure and down chain of command all i was going to say is you know and to some of these comments um it is a very novel situation people don’t know how to navigate you know we’re sitting here this is a lot easier to navigate than most things except and it helps we have a comment thing we can read so that we have some contact with the people watching but otherwise i’m talking to you and you and i’m doing it through this weird thing sitting on my computer it’s almost absolutely impossible to have any context or even a sense of responsibility for the people in the room right yes imaginary room i i agree and but the only reason our conversations work is because of the hours and hours and hours we spent over and over again talking both on camera and off on the discord servers right like we built that up and and this is where it gets sticky again there’s a way look i grew up online to an extent almost none of these other people can even imagine right like there’s a way in which there you can build online group some of my oldest friends i met on bbs’s for real they still use my bbs handle when they talk to me like it’s it’s funny it’s same actually one of my best friends from up here i i met on a forum for doing uh flips like acrobatics right right when i was 12 when i was 12 still one of my best friends and the and so there’s a way in which relationships even even ones that never result in people getting together physically can form and that’s very unique and novel in the world for the most part when there’s pen pals there’s a couple of other things but this with the video in particular very novel and we’re still working that through and we won’t know for 20 30 50 years what that was right because we’ll have to understand it in hindsight a lot of things you cannot understand except in hindsight has that squishing of time problem and so that’s really the issue is that there is a thing here and how should we be responsible for it how should we relate to it is it okay to shut down rebel wisdom i don’t know right so i like i want to highlight this speed aspect right so like i think a lot of stuff around conspiracy theories and what like people see things and they see movements and patterns and they assign identities to that yeah right and and the problem with that is that the internet is borderline schizophrenic yeah yeah but but the problem with that is that like some of those identities can hold right like they can manifest things right and so so like this this is what i said right like like i’m tlc three years ago right is different than tlc now because i believe i believe there was an impetus right that there was a spirit that could have been given a body i don’t think that’s true anymore that’s why i disassociated right and and so and and this this goes to believe right so like someone with authority has to claim an amination right and then people have to bind themselves to it right and even if the amination is false right the formation of the body because the body has to be divinely informed has a self corrective course right like that that body is is self-healing by binding its its internal structure right like i i i make these examples about things in my head like like some ideas if you if you have to start them with fate you bootstrap them with fate right and you build a castle on a cloud in your head and at a certain point there’s an internal integrity of these ideas that they’re solid right like they like like they create their own ground right integrity and and so that that i would also say is how solipsism happens yes and so and so regularly right right yeah yeah fair fair who are the who are the villains according to uh socrates in in the republic it’s the lowest form of life it’s the sophists oh okay it’s the sophists right there’s two philosophers and then there’s those reprehensible sophists i mean they’re they’re so reprehensible in the republic they all there it’s almost like we won’t mention them as much as possible we will avoid mentioning them there i’m also getting a kind of um is it odysseus’s boat problem thesius thesius’s ship thesius’s ship thank you um which is you know uh that’s the spirit even even so say that uh bridge is a meaning we’ll we’ll close it in a little from from the larger tlc moniker um right for the mark had the beautiful metaphor earlier of the uh the pillars i can’t remember what it’s called when it’s a pillar meant to hold up a bridge casing okay case on yeah okay um and right you one one gets removed or disappears or whatever the case is someone else steps in to try and hold up the bridge this pattern repeats over and over again at what point is this no longer the same bridge and is it even appropriate to still call it the same thing right so that’s where we get it now we’re getting into that really confusing territory between what makes a thing a thing like is it the pattern of it or is it the instantiation of it um and then the more mundane how do you know what thing it is as opposed to another thing thing which now it’s just messy messy messy yeah but the problem with with these ships is like you you can identify things by their their body right or you can identify them by the pattern what he participates in no it’s not it’s not no no it’s not the pattern it’s not the pattern it’s actually the representation what it represents okay so and and these these ship example i think everybody just gets it confused it’s really just the question of perspective right and it’s the question of idolatry because those are linked right if you believe the purpose of theses ship is to accurately and precisely represent the boat that theses used then it’s not the same it’s isn’t that hard then it’s not the same ship right if you understand that the purpose of the ship and having it where it’s at is to celebrate the journey in some cases irrespective of outcome that’s why we have monuments to failed battles then the physicality and the authenticity of the physicality aren’t relevant right anymore and that’s the problem of perspective which is the problem of relevance realization so relevance realization is is to some extent although not exclusively the problem of the post-moderns took away our frames and we need them back because we can’t have meaning or definitions for that matter without them so and that and then you have another secondary problem which is if theses ship was you know post post adventure uh still exists there and has its parts replaced to iconically symbolize the journey what happens as the people celebrating uh that journey or that adventure um form a different concept of what an adventure is now is it still theses ship no no no good no good no good no good no good no but like this this is interesting because this happened to the bible right i know that’s why i’m bringing it really does happen a lot more but that’s that’s my example with with the eating right of the same food and and having a different experience that are sometimes opposed right and and when you get something as big as the bible as complex as the bible the amount of the distinct perspectives that you can hold upon the whole thing is just insane right like right and and so there’s and that’s why the holy spirit is is so important like right and and revelation but also like like the bible isn’t important right like the bible is important in as much as it reveals god right like that like it’s it’s right a method the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon type of situation right i agree and and and it doesn’t matter like whether you grab the tail or the or the trunk of the elephant like it’s not relevant it’s it’s like okay so long as you can write it into a new field and and to to go with the open and the talos right like i think right i think there’s there’s a a relationship with the closed and the open on the talos right because because you need to close talos in order to act like like actions have have to be discrete right so right like if we if we level this up to the level of human right we have people that are high in openness right and we have conservatives right like we we need the conservatives to have the structure so that the openness people don’t die or get eaten by lions or whatever like like and and and they cannot exist without the virtue of of the structure that sustains them and and so and and and that’s also the earthly right like so like we we need to work we need to work the land in in order to have physical food so that we can access the spiritual food so that we can properly access the physical food like exactly the fountain the fountain yeah yeah right the head but but also how do you know it’s a fountain like what makes a fountain a fountain because it points up yeah the directionality right the fact that it well it’s not otherwise you’d eat your own poop and think you were a fountain exactly yeah it’s not your direction it’s orientation right that’s the that’s the key that’s why it’s navigating patterns and not you know directioning patterns or something stupid right like finding pattern pointing patterns can’t you can’t point at the things i talk about right they have to be oriented towards or or you can orient not towards them that’s that’s fine too there’s more there’s more not you can also have but that’s also like a specific form of project you can also have a person that all they do is just try and identify patterns and then they let other people go i don’t know go play with those lego blocks however you want right right right but that’s but that’s also irresponsible again it is irresponsible it’s potentially irresponsible no no no it is no it is not potentially it is actually irresponsible yeah because this is there’s forbidden knowledge right like in order to properly relate to a pattern you need to embody it or have an embodied relationship to it if you don’t have an embodied relationship to it and you just get it handed to you which is what science does actually right right just give you this formula right and then go ahead if you don’t have no wisdom yes yeah fair well and that’s power like it’s it’s it’s yeah it’s agency or something agency access to agency well and and that’s really what the what what the uh what all the battles are about like you know i don’t want to limit this in scope because we don’t have to that’s a microcosm as it were or part of the self-similar fractal nature of what’s happening like how do we identify i mean this is this is the argument over ukraine is ukraine a country i’m still not not as the boundaries are now and and maybe what rush is doing is trying to restore ukraine to countryhood and say these two parts i’ve already taken the third part that i wanted all right there that weren’t part of ukraine these parts don’t belong to these other parts and the proper boundaries must be maintained and drawn that’s an argument like is that the argument he’s making uh i don’t know but that’s that’s what i intend his his teleology right or or it’s how he argues probably in support of a hidden teleology right well and and every single person not every single person but every single person i met who’s from ukraine told me they were from russia instead of from ukraine until the war which is really strange way to identify why are you identifying as russian until there’s a war and suddenly you’re ukrainian especially given we’re trying is it because of the crimean annexation no no they didn’t they didn’t do that till the recent attack they most of them don’t recognize the war began in 2014 and so they well i guess i was wondering if like the northern part identified as russian through the crimean annexation i don’t know until they became the one getting annexed and then suddenly they have an identity no i think i think uh teddy from israel actually talked about this at least he never identified himself as strictly israeli he said where he came from and i’m israeli which i thought that’s the correct way to do it you can have multiple i’m french canadian yeah french canadian american this you know like but but but let me finish the point manuel so the point is they don’t have literature they don’t have a literary sort of history and his point was that’s why they’re not they’re almost a country but for that and my argument i think that’s actually a good argument i i don’t have a disagreement with that my argument is more along the lines of they wanted a historical grounding that they could appeal to that lasted through times they could make a stronger appeal to personal identity that’s why they said they were russian and like i’m not i’m not i’m not coming down on either side of that argument i’m just right boy it’s mysterious right it’s weird yeah i’ll be right back guys oh sure sure i have gone three hours without smoking a cigarette which is actually pretty incredible all right all right now’s your time to quit nick this is the miracle you’ve been waiting for signs and wonders like this is the sign make the wonder happen dude oh god but but uh to to be a little bit about this putin thing right it’s like okay like okay so putin is is promoting a telos for potentially hidden telos and it’s like there’s an implicit primacy in in that argument right so it’s like okay the hidden telos is is more relevant than the outspoken one and like i’m i’m starting to object at that point right because like like what is what is the thing that moves the world well the thing that moves the world is the thing that other people relate to right like that they identify as real right so if right and and to be fair like a lot of people don’t listen to putin so so you’re identifying something different than that he’s speaking and you better damn well make sure that you’re correct if if you’re gonna like not trust someone at work not because because people can’t lie or whatever right but like putin isn’t trying to lie like he he’s serious like this like he’s not playing a games when when he’s making a three-hour argument no well and and the and the objection is the objection around strong leadership ironically and again i just say this is coming up everywhere this rebellion like i you know i have to say what putin’s asking for the fact that those regions have been firing rockets at kiev for years since 2014 is really telling to me right because what’s telling to me is not the identification on the map but how the the the actual humans are behaving right i don’t believe what you say i believe what you do another peterson quote right that’s weird they’re in opponent processing i mean war yes yeah but but i already already at that point part of the same body because like i don’t like like and that’s what the fight is right explicitly i mean that’s why that’s why i find this amusing that we have to even have this conversation it’s actually happening around us opponent processing is war i was gonna wait till nick got back but yes nick oteen withdrawals indeed that happens and and that’s the problem is that we’re not watching what people are doing we’re not believing our our simple observation over our fantastical theory in our head and it’s a fantastical theory in your head you have a fantastical theory that there’s some like lizard people running the white house it’s ridiculous you know and it’s unnecessary what are you doing manuel what are you doing your screen look look nick nick oteen is back from his withdrawals have you just been identified correctly in your relationship network almost certainly properly identified excellent the combination is clear it’s it’s observed from the action right that the action is rebellion it doesn’t have a name if the action is not that the action is rebellion it doesn’t have a name if the action is like participating with the cigarette then clearly we’ve avoided a withdrawal a nick oteen withdrawal have you drawled any conclusions well i think you i i think there’s several points that where you guys made that are very strong the importance of naming is a very big one that’s a great point and how it has an effect on how we perceive and conceive and properly relate to patterns that we identify i’ve always been particularly terrible at naming so maybe that’s why i prefer things that just kind of bubble up and convenient enough i i kind of know what i’m referencing um well and i don’t and i don’t think that’s bad like i think another deep confusion we have is that there is a liminal space in other words there’s a space that exists between me and you that is not the same as the space we’re in now because this is public first of all manuel’s here that wouldn’t affect anything between you and i necessarily because all three of us are pretty tight at the end of the day but the fact that we’re now broadcasting does change right and like this is what i keep explaining to people it’s one thing if i privately on my discord with right ten people even say jordan peterson does this and i think it’s wrong that’s one thing but that is completely different from maybe my then private blowing up twitter like yeah well right well wait a minute let’s go all the way down right which is different from my private critique which i’m like i don’t know how i feel about this critique of peterson so maybe i won’t even share it with my discord yet because maybe i know my ideas aren’t that well formed does anybody else go through this because i think a lot of people are missing that step they just blab out whatever comes to mind right let’s let’s yeah we all do that’s why present company accepted but but but then you go up the well is it okay to tweet about it is it okay to make videos about it is it okay to have an audience of a certain size say a thousand views or something and make videos critiquing peterson right is it okay to critique something when you’re out of it when you had the opportunity to critique it while you were there and this showed up in arc right because jonathan peugeot does this brilliant speech the most brilliant speech he’s ever given was at arc criticizing arc like breaking it all down criticizing the whole thing and and clearly articulating his critiques that’s valid coming back home and whining about how when you were at arc you were unhappy that’s invalid like i think that’s inappropriate you know like i have never seen a paul vanderclay jordan peterson critique video not one right yeah true um the way i’ve i’ve conceptual or mapped though because you’re totally right totally different brown boundaries depending on the context and the the interaction you’re having with the world four simple categories private private private public public private public public and you have different sets of rules you may have to determine them you may have well at some point you have the determination and then you have the feedback and the the fitting as a negotiation world right people don’t like but you also have ethical right and you negotiate your identity too i think like etiquette yes yeah like there’s there’s an established way of being that you can conform to which allows you to navigate these spaces without having to understand your position in them right and that’s the important part see that’s the part that people don’t like they’re like what i don’t want to participate until i understand you know and and it’s like what if you can’t ever do that what if you actually the only way to properly understand is to participate that’s why i think again it’s even worse like it’s even worse because like i i have participatory understanding and right right when when i like i i i described myself like a week ago as going up the hill looking to the of the mountain looking to the hill next to it drawing a map in my head and understanding and then deciding to climb which is kind of what what what sam harris wants to do with his with his stupid landscape thing right right but but right like it’s so flawed in so many ways because like what whatever vision you can you can gain right like how however true it is it’s not the path up this hill like it’s not like and the walking and and and the participating in the being of the hill is going to be different so it’s not a solution even if you’re correct and i know like because i like to be correct and the part and the participation this is why i like for vicki’s participatory knowledge even though i fundamentally disagree he’s even describing knowledge the idea that that exists is important because that does help to draw the propositional line in your head that there’s a difference between the things in your head and the things that aren’t in your head and you can’t mix them up and and and and uh was gabriel stuckey was talking to michael sartori he sent me the link on on twitter and i was watching some of i haven’t finished the video but uh he he quoted something it really stuck out to me that i i think i sort of forgot uh so i’m glad he mentioned it uh which is you know uh participation is the way we intuitively know something like that’s how you gain intuitive understanding of something is through participating and you can’t gain it any other way so is it actually there’s more to the world and there’s a bifurcation at some point or there’s a boundary and when we’re talking about things like the good right you first have to conceive of the good before you can participate in it so if you never properly relate to to the category or or the form of i wanted to highlight that comment as well yeah yeah well let’s let’s go over joey a etiquette matters being a good a good host is what i think he means there gracious host and a good guest are all key early ideas of bom and yes the irony compared to how that’s enforced in an online space when and that and that’s the issue like how do we get along we don’t know each other that’s right that’s i would call it etiquette i would call it politeness etiquette’s a specific instance of a type of politeness is how i how i divided it up i think that’s really important right because your etiquette can change but but having an etiquette makes you polite uh whereas etiquette by itself you know it changes too much right from place to place is very context dependent politeness is the larger abstract bucket and and it is an imposition it is a tyranny well oh yeah like i like that word imposition right so that’s also a good way to to realize right like there’s when when what are we doing when we’re making a category or claiming the name of tlc is we’re imposing and and so what what what are we doing when we self-identify we’re imposing a a relationship or or an expectation maybe that’s the better word onto other people and and some expectations are appropriate that justify right like okay if we’re in the space we we have a container something that contains us and in order to remain healthy right to have have something wholesome we need to adhere to a certain etiquette because like else it won’t function like cannot well and again to my mind that was this is why i was trying to point out ontological levels was the tlc is just how it i imagined it is just a big old bucket there’s no etiquette there’s at most it’s just did you do you regularly talk to these people and you know talk about these ideas or broadcast in about these concepts or and then you have instantiations of communities within it that do have the etiquette and the mission and the right all these other qualities that actually that’s where the an actual telos starts forming is in the instantiation of how those conversations or relationships are conducted and those things have names but i and i think this is you know joey mark being a quote polite guest means adopting yeah well politeness is a two-way thing right like politeness isn’t isn’t politeness is an abstract so it’s in that in the way that is abstract it is a universal right which is not to say it’s a given because and and this is where i’d fight back like there is no standard of politeness there is no standard etiquette but there’s also no standard of politeness that you can identify you know in tlc because there are people making sure that doesn’t happen actively i agree wholeheartedly with that comment then that’s the problem so that’s why i say no you don’t have a container because every time you try to form one every time a telos starts every time somebody says whatever somebody comes in and there’s multiples of these agents to break it apart and i like what chad said in the in the friday morning nameless a few a little while back where he said uh um look when joey left there was a spirit to bom and that spirit has changed i would argue that spirit is gone since joey left and that was a while ago and it took a while for people to actually notice right so structures have momentum and so just because somebody leaves doesn’t mean it crumbles immediately but i would argue it did crumble after joey left as the result of that and and and that’s not it’s not necessarily the case that somebody could have stepped into joey’s shoes or something and fixed that problem like i don’t believe that that is necessarily true i’m not saying it wasn’t an option might have been but i don’t think it you know it’s certainly not arbitrary you couldn’t have just had dennis step in and do certain magical things and it would have been okay i don’t believe that for a second i believe it matters who and and the conditions and that’s the problem the reason why dennis was chosen was for a different reason than joey was there right that like that’s also there’s a different role associated with that that he tried to embody because i talked to him a lot and they wanted to make changes and like those those changes changed the spirit joey’s agreeing with you nick tlc has no host but has no etiquette and no guests it is a category of non-human relationships with content merely reflect merely a mere mere reflection of actual human relationships which is an objective material reality right right and so and so existence denied and and that’s and that’s still the problem it’s like yes any any way you try to slice it you’re going to come up empty and and and and and that’s deliberate you know but also a misnaming i mean it’s clear clear evidence for me of a misnaming and that’s descriptive like like it it is something descriptive but but now we’re getting back into the relevance realization right is because like like how do you decide what to describe and then it’s like okay there’s an authority again that you need to reference in order to to make make your value for your description and then you just end up like i want this to be a thing like that’s the authority and identification against is not an identification explicitly and that’s what we keep coming back to is it always ends up as an identification against which is fine but it’s not an identity then explicitly right it can never be an identity when it’s an identity and actually actually the word adversary was mentioned a while back in the comments and i i looked at the etymology and it is one who opposes right or one one who stands to towards the other faces the order and and what what is that that is an identity against the order like literally yeah it’s not a good thing that’s what it is not a good thing do we want to close this down um because i don’t think so i don’t ever want to close this down i want to talk to nick as long as i can as long as he’ll let me it might be a while i don’t have a lot of free time that’s the problem i’m like oh we’ve got him let’s keep him as long as we can it’s like the fish that got away i was i was like oh we can do this uh i don’t know saturday or whatever we might be able to it’s it’s i go in i go up to my cousin’s and try and keep making knives usually on the weekends oh um some weekends yeah that’s where my shop is now he’s got five acres about 15 miles north of here and he’s got a big shop on it and he let me put all my stuff in there um but yeah but you know working construction 40 hour 40 plus hours a week is a very exhausting uh thing to do yeah yeah that was that came up in the michael sartori talk with gabriel was yeah man you know you can use your energy up physically or mentally but yeah usually not both both and it is it’s difficult because i like build up angst and frustration and not you know in the same way that if you sit talking on your computer all day long you start getting your legs start wanting you know you get motions as they’re like hey can we get some like activity or blood flowing through us uh but i’ve been you know very very heavy on that and then the weekend you know i’ve got to do all the household chores and laundry and and go up to my cousins and and make sure everything’s taken care of and by the time it’s all done i’m basically just ready to start the cycle over again right um but you know i i definitely crave these um certainly after six months it was like i’ll sit here writing papers on youtube comments just so i can engage some part of my brain again oh come help us on all our documents and our notes and stuff nick we get the on the google docs you can put your attention to instead it’s all about time energy and attention on navigating patterns man to put it put it towards our projects that’s that’s we still get the 300 what is it 16 pages of notes we’re gonna go through man we gotta schedule that again we used to sit down a couple times a week and yeah maybe we should do that on the live stream that would be fun we could totally do that on a live stream yeah nick if you’ve got more time today or this week or whatever we’ll we’ll we’ll try to fit you in you coming up yeah actually on friday yeah this week um i should i could squeeze in another day for sure yeah okay we’ll make that happen and you want to friday friday’s probably actually a pretty good day for me i don’t know what works for you guys but my live show at seven my live stream at seven p.m eastern is on reflection but i won’t be there contemplation and rumination and manuel will already have gone to bed because he doesn’t like reflection contemplation rumination but we do and you can jump in on that like you need to add that one because i actually i actually do that when i wake up like my mind swaps in this mode and it’s just like like i don’t control it but like things happen i can tell it i can tell it in in the liminal space uh i yeah i don’t know if it’s a liminal space but uh or do you mean once you wake up uh no it’s it’s it like my brain does things and i like i’m participating but not really like it’s like yeah it’s kind of flowing along in its own little process well uh all right i gotta yeah let’s try and set something up for friday um it’d be cool if manuel could join us again if not i can hop in on two streams on friday i can totally get on your stream either or but i’ll try i’ll try and try and get one more of these in here before i start i’m probably going out to the coast for all of next week so oh great oh i’m actually no i’m not sitting on friday no you don’t like that idea that that’s going to be fascinating sorry what what will be i will be babysitting my nephew on friday oh i i will have time but i might need to change a diaper right that sounds awesome that’ll be yeah nick it was great to have you back and i’m glad i know who you are now in the comments and go look for your comments i got i got one of my comments called out in uh on twitter on uh on the pvk peugeot video um thank you michelle and thank you nick thank you everybody for watching um we have so much more that we want to talk to nick about so that he can tell us whether or not we’re on the right track we did the tlc thing and i really didn’t want to do it it ended up being a fun conversation though so well but again i don’t i don’t think it’s limited to that like i i think actually that is the problem you’re seeing in all layers that’s just a small version of what you’re seeing in ukraine and in the united states right and in europe and and in communities all over the place like i really like don’t don’t don’t you know we’re giving you a nice example that you guys are kind of tied up in but actually that’s actually what everyone’s tied up in it at the larger scale and and so i don’t feel bad about that was trying to focus on when i was initially responding is just like okay this is an interesting problem about the nature of ontology how things are granted realness you know in what way we consider them real et cetera et cetera so that was all very meaningful and fun no i i i love it next time we can talk about why it’s all actually just the printing press all right gentlemen we’ll have a good rest of your days but that sounded weird like we’ll never talk again until we all die friday friday friday we’ll we’ll we’ll figure something out for friday whether whether we do you know a thing with manuel or you just jump in my stream we’ll figure something out all right sounds good thank you everybody for watching it’s been wonderful everybody should have been watching a navigating patterns or twitter but if you weren’t then um i would like to communicate you from the peterson sphere because i can do that i guess i don’t know have a lovely uh lovely day uh thank you again nick thanks manuel for for making the time and go to bed and sleep well and we’ll see you all