https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=t8nxR6OjdzQ
So hello everybody I am in Salem, South Carolina as you can see it’s nice and warm year I am going to be giving an icon carving class this week and For the beginning of this session. There’s an icon carving class and an icon painting class as well given by someone else I was asked to give the opening talk and I decided to do it on the on the Let’s say radical solution that making Christian and especially liturgical art offers to our culture And so I hope you enjoy this just so you know like I’ve told you before I’ve started making Patreon only videos and so this month the month of September. I’m going to make a patreon only video Interpreting the story of rumple still skin It is one of my favorite stories because it’s so strange, but I think there’s a lot of interesting stuff We can get in there I will also look down in the description of this video because I will put the date and the place Where I will be speaking in Chicago very soon I will also be speaking at Santicon seminary in Pennsylvania Near Scranton, Pennsylvania in the month of November So if you’re interested in that I would put the details in there down below as well So enjoy the video and every guys I will talk to you soon I This is Jonathan Peugeot welcome to the symbolic world Asked to give a definition of an icon and so An icon is a sacred image So the word icon is complicated because the word icon just means image and so it’s not it We it’s a shorthand right when we use the word icon what we mean is sacred image So we don’t we don’t say sacred, but that’s what we’re talking about So that’s what makes the icon particular. It’s because it is an image which not only depicts Sacred things holy people But also is sacred in the sense that it participates in the life of the church It participates in the life of the liturgy as well. And so it is another word we could use is something like liturgical image That’s another way that we could talk about it And so because of because of what it is because it is a sacred image It has certain characteristics Which grew up in the church in the tradition of the church to help identify the images to help differentiate them from Secular images and to help us understand what it is that’s going on Inside the image and so in terms of the the actual canons you could say in terms of what the church has decided It is required for something to be considered a sacred image You need to have an image of person a holy person and you need to have the name of the person which is which is written on the Image and that is actually in the Seventh Decade Medical Council the the basic strict minimum of what it takes To for us to recognize that’s this okay, so this image is something it’s the image of a saint It’s the image of Christ. It’s the image of the mother of God and We put the name there so that there’s no mistake we know who it is we’re interacting with and That image is there to help us participate in the liturgy participate in participate in the sense to interact with the person that is being represented and I think that that That’s going to slowly kind of bring me to what it is that I mostly wanted to talk to you about As I’m talking I’ll give a little bit of Characteristics of the icon but what I mostly want to bring people to think about right now is is The particular moment that we are in in terms of culture in terms of Western culture Christian post-Christian culture. We’re at a point in In our history where we have we’re very cultural right we have a lot of cultural events You know if you if you all the cities they’ll organize different cultural events and What’s interesting if you pay attention to what we now call culture today? What is it like going to a concert? You know going to the theater watching a movie? All of these things with what describes them is that they are entertainment That we have come to a point in our own story where we have reduced What we call culture to entertainment to something which you sit passively and you look at you you you you watch a movie or you Listen to music and you you passively encounter something and What’s interesting about? The icon and what’s it’s not the only thing that’s interesting But what’s fascinating if you think about it in the context of our social moment right now Is that it’s actually a way into a more profound and authentic way to engage? With what we call culture that is The images if you think of how modern art developed you know from let’s say Especially from the time of the romantics up to today. We really have this idea, and you’ll meet artists today You know find artists who’s what is what do they want? What is their hope that they hope that their art can be shown in a gallery and that they can maybe have a nice catalog Published with their images in them and that people with a lot of money will collect their art put them in their collections So that then when they get shown in museums, then they could have you know you know where the Providence is Oh in this in this famous collection, so we have a series of cultural Art of cultural artifacts we have artists galleries Museums right and all of these are there for you to go and look at art or buy art and Collect it okay Now this is where you can see the difference between the icon But the icon is going to be in this in this particular example a window into an ancient world which is now gone Which has slightly not completely gone, but it’s a slowly fading away When you’re making an icon You are not making the icon to go into a gallery there are a few artists sadly There are a few iconographers who wish that’s how it was but usually when we make an icon. Why are we making the icon? Usually usually to usually two reasons. I mean very practical reason. I mean a practical reason usually because you’re practicing Or because you’ve been commissioned that those are the two reasons why you make an icon like either you’re trying to make an icon Like either you’re trying to get better and make better icons So you’re you’re learning you’re improving your your your craft or someone asked you and said I need an icon of St. Demetri I need an icon of Christ of this feast of this and that’s when you make an icon I don’t I don’t I Make a very few icons once in a while I’ll make icons just like that, but most of the time if I make an icon I’m making an icon for someone That’s a huge It’s a huge difference the huge difference if you think about the artist in their studio Who’s expressing themselves and then what hopes to show their work in a gallery and hopes that their work will become famous? I am creating something for someone’s particular need That is it’s like making a chair, right? Like I’m making something for someone but it’s bigger than that the very particular transaction Is that someone writes me calls me talks to me and says, you know My nephew is being baptized and I would like to offer an icon of this Saint Something like that. And so there’s a story there. It’s a human story There’s a human story of someone who has a need a church that has a need Someone who wants to celebrate something and so I am engaging them in that story But then at the bigger level what I’m also doing is I’m participating in a communal Act and participating in a communal language That is the language of the icon as you’ll see those who are painting those who are carving you’ll see it’s a very specific language and it’s specific for Spiritual reasons for theological reasons, but there’s also another reason why it’s specific. It’s specific because it is a communal language Just like any just like English Just like the spoken languages are communal languages that is when I’m saying something to James I want him to understand what I’m saying. I’m trying to communicate something I want you engage with him and when we make an icon we are entering it into a community into a church into a whole history and a whole community of people that Recognize these images There are other traditional arts and other cultures that have that of course, you know you think of You think of a no, I’m not good like into musical instrument making making musical instruments Is there is a great example of that where you are making a musical instrument for someone? Let’s say very high quality. It’s oh it has to be beautiful It has to you know, you really want it to be the best but it also has to do what it has to play music And it has to sound right so that person can then play music with his band and so that’s the same thing It’s very similar to when we make an icon. We are creating we’re making an object Within a language within a community for a community and we’re also we’re so we’re participating in this whole Also this whole strand of history. We’re connecting ourselves to a community but to the past all this is a connected language, so now contrast that with the the the state of secular art where we are today now They don’t succeed in doing it But usually a lot of the famous artists today the way that they get attention is by Shocking by doing something that no one has seen before, you know Is it innovative like is it innovation has somehow become a core value of? culture for some reason the idea that you should do something that no one has seen before and Why so they’re appealing to something very different something very very different this desire to titillate right the desire to surprise to shock to To provoke a disjunction in culture and if you look at modern art from especially from the 20th century now you look at the modern artists their particular goal was to create constant disjunctions to To break what was there before so the Cubist tried to break the classicists and then you know The surrealist came and said all these formalists know we’re going to break that with this kind of broke it this exploded imagination The Dada came in and they said we’re gonna break the whole thing We’re gonna smash the entire the entire system and and that’s our That’s the background of the way that we think about culture today You know if you if you watch a movie that gets great great reviews usually they’ll say oh this is new this has some kind Of there’s something I’ve never seen before it’s innovative and everything now. There’s nothing wrong with innovation, right? It’s very it’s very dangerous As I’m going down this road. I’m thinking he’s always he’s saying you can’t innovate. No, there’s no nothing wrong with innovating But the question is always when you’re making icon You always have to think firstly that you want to integrate this image into a community So it’s not that there’s something wrong with innovating but the question is why would you innovate? You have to have a reason there has to be something which would make you change what you’re doing Because if I’m trying to communicate something to you, I’m trying to engage you you know if I’m trying to To find out how your day went. I’m not going to make up a new word That would be stupid because I mean and there’s nothing wrong with making up new words if there’s a reason to but Unless there’s a reason to what you want to do you want to focus on the purpose The purpose of what you’re communicating the purpose of what you’re doing and that’s what you find in in iconography So once you realize that there’s actually something There’s a there’s a strange Little moment now also in culture is that we’ve kind of you know I said that most of our culture is Let’s say it’s entertainment and passive But there’s actually quite a lot of the passive culture which is trying to be transformed into active participation So there’s some I’ll give you an example. This is this is the most one of the funniest examples There’s something in the United States. It’s a pretty large organization It’s called Harry Potter and the sacred text and what it is is basically a church the people will meet every week and And they’ll have readings group readings of Harry Potter books, so they’ll sit together and Then they’ll have a group reading of a Harry Potter book And then they’ll have a discussion about it. I don’t know I’ve never been to one of those events I can’t just can’t what’s right? This is really real you can look up say Harry Potter the sacred text, okay, but it’s only one example of several other things like that like you have Something called you probably have heard of cosplay where people will dress up as their favorite comic book movie characters, and then they’ll go to these events and They’ll they’ll be costume and they’ll like celebrate their their favorite their favorite Fiction characters together in these these these almost liturgical events, okay now what you’re seeing what you’re seeing is we’re seeing the end we’re seeing the the end of the Passive entertainment culture we’re not that totally the end but we’re seeing it start to fray in these types of movements where people It’s as if they’re they’re lacking something they want Participative culture because that’s what ancient culture used to be like Think about you know a village 200 years ago 300 years ago. What was culture culture was you know the Mardi Gras and Lent and then we had the feast of this Saint and the feast of that Saint and then we would have processions and we had folk dancing all of these were Participative there was we didn’t have this idea that culture was just sitting there and Watching someone else perform something not that it was excluded, but that that’s not wasn’t the core of culture. Yeah Yeah, social media is an interesting is a very interesting thing in terms of community is that it is Social media is a parody of community because what we’ve had in let’s say the past hundred years We’ve developed this idea of the celebrity, but the celebrity has replaced the same we were not idiots. It’s pretty obvious We call them stars You know we call them icons. We use all the words That that we would use to describe Saints they’ve replaced them and so but it’s an inverted obviously an inverted form of Sainthood where it’s whoever can titillate or shock or surprise or or attract that kind of Carnal attention you could say is the one who wins the game But so but but now there is this desire to participate But it’s it’s in the image of that strange That strange inverted thing so social media is a That strange inverted thing so social media if you think of Facebook the way it works or Twitter same thing We have the sense that it’s somehow a form of community, but it’s not really what it is it’s basically people who are showing themselves and Then other people who can watch Right, so it’s it’s it’s many many stars So it’s it’s it’s basically exposing yourself and voyeurism So you can look at some you can what you can go on someone’s Facebook page You’ll never know right they’ll never know that you’re looking at them unless you write a comment But it’s like so it’s so so I’m gonna show pictures of myself some people can look at them And so it’s like it’s a mini form of this the stardom that we have like a little mini form of it And it’s it’s a parody of It’s a parody of community now. I’m on social media like I’m not not saying you shouldn’t be on social media I’m on social media. It’s useful and everything I think it’s important to understand the moment in culture where we are and like I said all these these things like Let’s say these these kind of cosplay worlds all these things and also video games are part of it too video games are part of trying to create participative places where Where you’re not only receiving culture, but you’re actually engaging within an actual narrative But what’s what’s interesting about what we’re doing and this is the most this is why? Iconography liturgical art is in a way the most radical Thing that you can do right now because the question is posing or the challenge that it’s posing to culture it goes very very deep goes right at the root of our entire culture of entertainment and of passive It’s an aesthetic experience And so that’s why you look at you know someone like Marek and myself There’s other iconographers in North America who were actually trained in contemporary art we were all trained in contemporary art trained to be gallery artists all of this and Reaching let’s say the end of that it seemed like the only place to go That was the only place to go was this desire for a participative Culture and the the the icon offers that in every way now when I talk about the icon, it’s very care we have to be very careful not to Not to disassociate it from everything else that is the icon only has its full Meaning its full purpose when it’s part of the community when it’s part of communion in the largest sense when it’s part of the liturgical Life of the church and so it’s not you can’t it’s very we’re used to thinking of these objects as paintings because That’s how we think that it’s it’s hard to break that we make these paintings We put them on the wall like that. That’s it. There’s nothing like I said, there’s nothing wrong with that It’s important to understand that this has it’s part of an entire let’s say an entire work of art I always say that the Composer Wagner in at the end of the 19th century. He had a term I Probably not gonna be able to say it and it had a term which meant the perfect work of art And he said this is opera because opera has all the different arts in it It has visual art in terms of the scenery and in terms of composition It has music in it and so and it also has narrative it has drama And so he said this is the perfect it’s the perfect work of art The complete work of art, but there was one thing missing right what was missing that was participation Right. That’s what was missing in Wagner’s because some I’m gonna not be able to say it then it’s the perfect work of art and the perfect work of art is more something like the Liturgical year that is the perfect work of art because for it covers the entire Narrative first of all that we participate in the narrative of Christ’s life that we that we Engage in that we try to emulate and participate in it also Includes all those things that Wagner talked about which is we have the music we have the visual Aspect we have like I said, we have the narrative. We also have architecture which water didn’t have we also have the actual space itself is Thought out and that’s why That’s why the Orthodox tradition has done us such a service by preserving The basic grammar of the Christian language It has it has offered us the possibility to once again Participate in this full language and it’s hard to do in our modern world We’re all we’re also also alienated even though we’re Orthodox We’re not like an agreed village, you know 500 years ago, but we do have this door that is open to us And like I said the fact that we always have to remember that the icons are not just painted boards They are images inside the church the placement of the icons in the church is Coherent, it’s not arbitrary. We put certain image. It’s not always the same. It’s not a hundred percent It’s not always the same it’s not a hundred percent It’s not a system, but it is always theologically proposed That is images the images speak to themselves within the church the images also speak to themselves across different icon types and that’s something that we always have to remember just like the the person who’s excited to read You know Marvel Comics and to see references to other Marvel Comics in their Marvel Comics and to see how all of these You know go to watch an Avengers movie and to see all the different superheroes that they like come together into An Avengers movie like look at the icon of the Last Judgment Right. That’s the ultimate Avengers movie. You have every single Story from Adam and Eve Right all the way to the last to the final moment of the whole universe all Put into one image in the icon of the Last Judgment. We have the ascension we have the We have the the basic deesis we have all these different images that are that are kind of brought into one and Then all the other icons also talk to each other So there’s this inter is fancy word but this intertextuality that we that exists within the icons But the icons are not just talking to themselves. They’re also referencing the liturgy They’re referencing scripture and So all of this is like this massive grammar this massive sacred grammar of things that are Talking to themselves and we are part of that that massive poetic language and that’s why the the actual architecture of the church is also important because It let’s say just in terms of iconography that there are different ways you can make a church The basic orthodox church with the dome and and a square well There’s a reason why Christ is up in the dome and that you have a hierarchy of angels or that you have the saints who are Watching Christ ascend all of these things are related to what the dome is The dome is the dome of what happens in the West in the church It’ll be irrelevant It’ll be the Dormition of the Mother of God to be the Last Judgment something which represents the end The Sun that sets if you look at the East then you see the child Christ who is Coming out of the Mother of God’s womb So you have the dawn you have the the the dawn and the Sun rising out of the East and the sunset in the West So the whole church is is a cosmic image and all these icons are speaking to themselves the hymns all of that goes together And so that is what I’m trying to propose to people is that What I’m finding now is that for a lot of the young people like the people in their 20s These are ones that I’m in contact with That is a very very attractive thing because they’ve reached the end of No, they’ve reached the end of their world like they they’ve played Hundreds and hundreds of hours of video games and they’re they’re tired They they’re they’re tired of that empty desire that desire to participate which always leaves you somewhat empty and They they they love all these all these mangas and all these comic books and all this kind of pop culture but they also realize that there’s something missing and To be able to propose this view and it’s you Okay, I’ve given you some images some some some hints of what’s going on in this say this Gigantic grammar this gigantic story that we have in the Christian tradition, but it’s inexhaustible. It is inexhaustible Because it starts at Genesis and it ends today Ends into the end of the world But like we’re part of it too and all these saints are part of it too The whole movement of history is part of it too. So you have this you can participate you can be inside a story and that has That has so much value for people today Anyways, I that what I’ve seen is young people who are thirsty to have something to participate in and so when we paint the icons we need to understand that the the codes that say that The norms of the icons are not arbitrary They are there first of all to make that image the most Participative it can be to make the image of the same Bring you into communion with that saint in the in the best way right There’s been a lot of discussion about style Some of you will be aware of this some of you will not be aware of it But within the world of iconographers has been a massive debate over style for like the last 50 years Maybe and and it’s still raging today. It’s still raging today But When you when you look at the image as this desire to commune To commune with the tradition to commune with the people to commune with the the church then a lot of those problems are less urgent Because the the decisions that you make are not only stylistic. They’re also there. Like I said so that people will Understand what it is that you’re trying to do So I’m not gonna solve the stylistic problem for you today, but in terms of understanding why there’s a halo understanding why the saints are Looking at you usually either straight on or three-quarters all of this is part of this, right? we don’t show an icon of the saint with the back of their head why because Because of what I said the image is there for you to engage with it. It’s not there for you to just to just Look at how nicely well done the painting was done and there’s nothing wrong with that too There’s nothing wrong with the beautifully painted icon. That’s not that that’s not the first reason why it exists in the world So anyways, I’m not going to speak forever. I just was hoping to give you that little little thought and to maybe under to help us realize that as we’re sitting there at our table and we’re Trying to figure out how to paint the face or pick, you know This you know, just the actual technical part that we’re also even if subtly working towards the world where there’s a renewal of Participative culture renewal of the capacity to enter into a story and it’s the best story It’s the best story because it’s the story of Christ. It’s the best story. So thank you So I don’t know if anybody has any questions, yeah It just occurred to me, you know, what you’ve been saying is great to hear Together Most of the We come to come into church we come to the icon we venerate the icon kiss the icon We are Maybe without realizing it engaging ourselves Into this world Yeah, but I think I think that when we when we reverence an icon when we venerate an icon We have to at least that’s the way I understand it the way I understand it is it’s the same way as When in church the priest will come out and he’ll bow before us we bow before the priest, you know, we we we are that is the Way we engage with ourselves. And so when you encounter an icon It’s not just an image, right? It’s an image of a person. It’s an image of a story It’s an image of an event in the life of Christ or in the life of a saint that is extremely meaningful to us And so by by venerating it we’re doing this. Like I said, we’re doing the same thing We’re recognizing how God is manifesting himself through that Like when you bow down before someone it’s like you’re back You’re not just if I bow down before in church if I if the deacon is sensing and I bow before the priest I’m not bowing before you know, Bob I mean, yes But it’s not that’s not the point the point is that is that I’m bowing before the image of Christ Which is which is appearing through him as we are in this this space of communion And so the icon is also the same like when we look at the image, obviously, we’re looking past the actual paint We’re seeing the saint and we’re we’re we’re ultimately we’re actually looking past the saint to a certain degree Where we’re seeing Christ in that saint Where everything leads to Christ the whole all of community all of the liturgy everything all the icons all of this all leads to The image of Christ which is appearing and it’s different as sparks in the different people around us and the different events around us Does that make sense? Do you have a question? Participating in icon painting or icon carving What’s going on or what could be going on spiritually in that participation process? I mean, I think that I think that first of all, there’s a there’s like an objective aspect I think that just like in church, there’s a sacramentality Which is not dependent on the individual of you know, the individuals Particular moment right now. It’s like the sacraments are valid No matter what the priest even the priest the jerk or whatever like the sacraments are valid And I think that in a certain manner that goes the same for an icon we have to be careful we have to be careful about that because you will hear people say things like because you know this icon was painted by this guy who’s You know, he’s not in the church barely in the church or you know, whatever That’s dangerous because the image with the name if that image is part of the let’s say Part of the language of the church, you know, it can participate in the life of the church And so that’s important. That’s important to understand now on top of that Let’s say on top of that there is then the more mystical aspect Which is there also in in the sacramentality of the church you can go to church and then you can have this amazing moment right this amazing grace where you’re transported where you you you can feel The grace of God, you know, just being funneled down into you And I think it’s the same for when we encounter an icon and I think it’s the same for when you’re making an icon So there are moments when I’ve been making icons where I was like not there at all where I was completely and I was fighting with my wife or you know, I have financial problems and this is what’s going on and You know, I finished the icon and someone loves it says beautiful. It’s full of grace or whatever It’s like that wasn’t me. That wasn’t me for sure. Like I didn’t know that was beyond me. There are other moments when you are Carving or paint I’m not I don’t paint but let’s say you’re carving the an icon and then you really have these First of all, you can have these very strange moments in terms of encountering the saint that you are painting or that you’re carving That is having to me Oh very oddly where I’m making an image of a saint and then all of a sudden all these strange events, you know Regarding this saint start to appear and all of a sudden the saint is everywhere for some reason Like I hear people talking about that saint or you see I Mean all kinds of different, you know, you go to you go somewhere and then there’s some strange Story of that the saint has been here or something like that So that is something that can definitely happen to you and it’s happened to me several times And then also I think that in the best moments I think that making an icon can also be a prayerful act because you are you are it’s a you’re Participating in the life of the church as you’re making the image you know you you are you’re making something for the church if you’re doing it in a spirit of of service and humility You know and you’re connected to to the Saints then I think that you can also have just these moments of of grace you know these moments of peace these moments of So yeah, I’m sure it can go pretty far I’m sure if we were saints we might have visions of the saint and sure it could go a lot further than that Sadly, I’m not quite there yet Does anybody have questions for those who have come maybe for the first time do you have questions on Why icons look the way they do you’ll I know will will be also giving people I’ll be talking about it in our in our class as well and talking about different different just that Some of the more like the codes you could say like there are certain things in icons which you need Which we which we traditionally put in icons for us to to engage with them properly and to recognize them so All right, well, thank you for your attention and I wish everybody a great week and It’s I it’s it’s tough. You know it gets it gets hard especially after a few days And so we’ll we’ll hopefully you can all in the morning We’ll have morning prayers and put ourselves in the right track for the day If you enjoy the symbolic world content, there’s a lot of things you can do to help us out If you’re not subscribed, please do go ahead and share this to all your friends If you can get involved in the discussion We have a Facebook group in which people can talk about these subjects I will put all those links in the description and also if you can please support us financially by going to my website www.thesymbolicworld.com Slash support and I also have a patreon and a subscribe star. So thanks again, and I will see you soon