https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=nWameOxoiOA
There we go All right, well good hello good to see you good to see you first of all, thanks off. Thanks right off for All the work on the blogging. I thought it’s been excellent and I deeply appreciated above it Great. It was wonderful to share. It’s been useful to Share with several people really enjoyed it. I got some good feedback on it and good, you know So I think it was very worthwhile. Yeah. Yeah, I’m looking forward to the next one. We’re gonna do together. Yeah Yeah, I think that’s a I think you’ve really hit on a very interesting that the transvective participatory thing has been very enlightening for me. Yeah Yeah, well, I’m sorry. I’m not I’m not agreeing to that I’m just saying yeah, I can I can I can I can pick up on the enthusiasm and some of this stuff you’re communicating I would definitely like to hear your is a participatory knowing and transvective I’d like to hear a little bit more about that background Yeah, yeah, let’s let that’s good because I’m doing a lot of work on that right now Because I think there’s deep connections between Yeah, I think you need to really understand perspectival and participatory knowing to really get what I’m talking about when I’m talking about dial the logos and Dialectic as a as a psycho technology for affording our deal logos So I think I think that’s very important Also, I mean this topic is is current right now rebel wisdom just released a video Allie and David were talking about lost kinds of knowing and they were talking about my work And they’re also talking about Ian the Gilchrist work. I just had an amazing conversation with Ian Recorded it We both hope that he and I can talk again. It was just such a fun Conversation so I bet yeah, I can really get into his space as well. So I’d love to well Yeah, and I think some of the stuff you’re doing about the deep Reconceptualization of psychology as a discipline I think is relevant To his work into mine, but let’s let’s start with this. Let’s start with the with with the transjective And the participatory and and I normally start from the propositional because that’s where people are familiar and work down to the Unfamiliar, but I want to start to try the other way and I want to work with you Let’s do some jazz and see that let’s see if it works better that way because amen brother Yeah, well, you know, you’ve got the appropriate expertise and depth of understanding to be good on good interlocutor and partner so There’s the note one way I try to Sometimes get started with the participatory knowing is I pick up on Bickenstein’s idea that even the blinds could talk We wouldn’t understand them So even if they could you know use propositions with the correct syntax and everything we wouldn’t get them and it’s in the idea Behind that is because they don’t have our form of life The form of life is not a state of consciousness. That’s why it’s deeper than Perspectival knowing and what is what does that mean? Well, it means it means it for I think for us as human beings and this is what something beyond lines It means these these these things at least there is we we are deeply historical and not just Culturally historical we have a evolutionary history. And what does that mean? That means that evolution has done this process of What’s called, you know niche construction? Organisms shape their environment and then the environment shapes the organisms So what you have is you have mutual shaping, right? You have this mutual shaping and the idea is that mutual shaping that niche construction that generates affordances it patterns of real connection within which relevance realization intelligence can occur because if you don’t have that mutual shaping by biology You’re just lost in combinatorial explosion right completely that frames it and then flows it Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then of course on top of the Biological shaping mutual shaping niche construction that we share with lines, of course, we have cultural Culture shapes us right? So the culture is shaping us. Go ahead. Right can Please okay, because my basic psychology language would say on top of our basic animal psychology. Yeah Okay, we have the Cultural consciousness and Parts so in other words you use the word biology there, you know, my language is actually that’s mind Okay at the level of the animal Mind at the level the animal is corresponds to basic psychology, which is the perspectival Procedural and participatory intuitive interactive Behavioral investment flow, okay And then on top of that we are cultural persons that justify our actions in a secondary reflective stance And that gives rise to linguistic propositional Systems. Yeah, I think this is gonna be parallel. I think so. Let me say some more and then No, no, I think I want you to do that So What I was gonna say is, you know culture is a mutual shaping to we shape the environment to fit us and we shape ourselves To fit the environment. That’s that’s why you experience culture shock when you go somewhere else. So you you you don’t know Your biological fittedness as a set of beliefs. It’s not even a state of Consciousness right? It’s you participate in it. Hence the term participatory knowing you participate in niche construction you participate in Cultural right cultural coordination that that worldview attunement that you’re talking about and then above and beyond that you have cognitive mutual shaping and so what I’m having right is I’m Constantly you can even see this and you know at levels of sort of Pavlovian conditioning Because the organism is not just the idea that that’s largely associational. I think is a fundamental Mistaking of the data right? Great. You agree with me on that You don’t need to get into it Yeah, I mean Evolution creates the frame of adaptation and then there’s adjustments through association and operant Well, yeah But I would I even say that even at the level of the conditioning what you’re actually seeing and this is what’s now coming Out in some of the more sophisticated modeling, right is you’re not you’re first of all, you’re not seeing association You’re people have moved. No. No what you’re seeing is prediction, right? Right and then and then more people are now pointing out. Well, it’s not just prediction What you’re seeing is prediction that’s it fused with preparation. The organism isn’t just sort of predicting the environment. It’s also Preparing so right and what does that mean? The organism has some implicit model of itself and it’s activating the appropriate skills Given that self model and given the prediction of the environment and all of that’s happening. And what does that? What does that mean? You’re simultaneously right your Creatures are Visualizing the environment they’re shaping it cognitively, but they’re also shaping themselves as a here’s the sequence of operations I’m gonna so cognitive you get optimal grip To get up to my grip right right right. So once you’re getting up to that level, right? That’s where the participatory knowing now acts as a Constraining matrix within which the perspectival knowing unfolds as you said within that once I have the biological Biological mutual shaping the cultural mutual shaping. I have what I think is the relevance realization Mutual shaping then within that now I have like the here nowness of my salience landscaping and that’s what the What is it like to be sober here now? Right, what’s my salience landscape? It’s it’s very much more adverbial than adjectival, right? That’s the procedural and the perspectival and the point about both of those throughout that description is All of that is transjective in nature the shaping right the shaping that creates biological affordance cultural affordance Colt cognitive performance cognitive affordance sensory motor affordance. All of that is transjective It is co-created by the environment and the organism in a mutually coupled dynamically, right organizing fashion between them Right not a blank slate in the head not an empty canvas on the world absolutely, and that’s why we get things like imaginal constructs that can then Intersect and create potential right for transvective participatory symbols like the symbol of justice that then creates a particular kind of frame that integrates a loss and Allows us to participate with that exactly. That’s well said so the the the imagine that we’re using Corbin’s term, which Which I got where did I get it? I got to talk to Tom Thomas Cheetham. We have we recorded a video together About Corbin. Yeah, so the you know, that’s exactly right the the imaginal it Differes from the imaginal imaginary and the imaginal is not just a horizontal relationship to some fictional object The imaginal if you allow me this metaphor is also vertical It’s designed to access and activate right these deeper levels of knowing bring this is right Perfectable and ultimately participatory knowing of something Yeah, so because ultimately but this goes I think to the core of the point great ultimately we want a participatory and perspectival knowing of justice not not just Or even procedural procedural we need all of that. Yeah Exactly No, that’s okay No, no, no, go ahead. Here’s another thing that actually will connect about what we need. Okay So in psychotherapy, there’s an unbelievable debate about you know, empirically supported treatments for example, okay Well what you just said I think connects actually immediately to a fundamental debate. Okay in the field Which is when we started the field starts to try to do empirically supported treatments It’s actually trying to create a set of propositions and procedures Okay, that are then enacted upon some system and when it’s a recipe Okay, it’s propositional and procedural which is very impersonal and not Idiographic in the dynamic participatory relation between two unique individuals Which is why the humanists went crazy in relationship to trying to impose a code on An inductively generalizable code that’s true for all people at least probabilistically that then gets imposed But then it all immediately becomes an impersonal Procedural code that our intuitive desire for authentic unique relating reacts against so there’s a real It’s an interesting dynamic. So we know I was up on this. This is a thank you great Great connection so so two things come up so one is, you know I’m engaged in this project of trying to figure out what dia logos looks like and what dialectic it and you’re that’s totally relevant to what you just talked about and then the other thing is You know that therapy has a transformative component to it Not just a representational component and that’s why you need the perspective on the participatory. So that’s coming in and then I I’ve read I wanted to ask you so let’s talk about those two points But first a brief sort of empirical point I’ve read some research show it. I mean two things that independent of whatever Techniques you’re using or approach rapport is the thing that’s the single most important predictor of how well therapy goes And then I’ve also read some meta reviews that saying a lot of the evidence-based things like CBT are now losing their effectiveness Across time because the older practitioners Advocated CBT, but they had all this implicit perspectival and participatory stuff and what’s happened is all that’s been transmitted What there’s kind of a copying error what it’s being reduced to the recipe And so these these therapies are actually losing their effectiveness as we as we move through time And so I thought first of all, are you like you nodding your head? So it sounds like that’s familiar information to you So rapport isn’t exactly the word I would use it’s Alliance So there’s a technical thing around Alliance and what that and the essence of Alliance and really I run and of course a lot Of this is very complicated at the level of language Yeah, I would meaning our our language games and then what is actually just circular And and all of that but what is absolutely the case as far as I’m concerned is that the psychosocial relational process? variables, okay, right Documented over and over empirically So empirically the humanists were basically right in the sense that to the extent that you establish a relationship That has good flow. Okay, you have a shared understanding of your trouble and your healing and we have a shared understanding of the tasks You get those ingredients together and that’s associated with good outcome, right? Okay, okay That’s what I was referring to General common factors and it doesn’t really matter if your language game is CBT or if it’s a bona fide Psychodynamic or if it’s emotion focused or or if it’s existential I mean if you do that and then we track people and it has these ingredients and then you get basically The opening chapter of my book in my original book is called from racing horses to seeing the elephant Okay, and it comes from my history in psychotherapy when I came from a CBT tradition thinking that that was like Oh the science says CBT is good and then I realized actually that’s basically BS when you get inside of it Well, the fact of the matter is it’s ten times more complicated than that and that none of the paradigms traditional bona fide paradigms win But actually that’s these processes. Okay, and what I’m convinced in fact you were Your knowledge system just gave me the language as to why I was convinced I was always convinced that we didn’t get the scientific humanistic dialectic and dynamic right You know, we didn’t have the right language. In fact that program I directed I’m a part of still but that I directed for 12 years was explicitly scientific humanistic in its orientation, right? And that is we would draw on scientific language concepts and principles We wouldn’t be talking about God and praying to God as psychologists, but we would be talking about a language of science terms And then impute that and look at the research evidence and then put it in a unique Idiographic participatory relation, right? Right, right, right. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. Right and and that and that is and that in making sure you have the space Okay, you know like because I would always take okay So you’re gonna read the literature and say CBT is good for you And then I walk into your office because I have problems I spent four years with Beck right and you’re gonna what are you gonna do start walking me through? automatic thoughts and you know, I Really? I’m gonna look at you and be like you’re a joke Okay So the generalizability is you have to put it in the unique particular and you have to have the skills to participate to do that And that and that’s a unique and dynamic Ideographic it’s got all of these elements Can we zoom in on this right now? Because I think this is because that’s the pill that’s the point because now this is where it overlaps with the broader Concern I have about you know getting the logos back breaking monologic Presentation of information and bringing back the logos which introduces a poria and challenges to aspiration and transformation Because you’re obviously referencing those processes within therapy, but You might have seen some of the dialogues I’m having with people like guys sense talk and I participate in circling practice where people are trying to Like take this up and take this back up and bring it back into no. No, we got to address the meaning crisis In addition to our individual idiosyncratic psychotherapeutic Concerns we have shared cultural existential concerns that need to be addressed. So if you’ll allow me and And then you know, I’m glad I’m talking to you because this is I’ve got to pose you with sort of a significant challenge but You know, I trust you so that that’s what basically I’m saying What I want to do is try to get you know, and what I mean is, you know, I hope you’re trusting me I’m not here to dice you or make you into a I think we’re playing together Part of part of it is part of part of the logos though is to do exactly what you talked about Make sure that we have an alliance make sure right that we’re here together and that’s right We have a cooperative coding of what we’re doing and stuffing like right I want to zoom in on because you I think you put your finger on something that I want to unpack more and you Have a you kind of have a terrific bank of expertise and experience You alluded to the these sets of skills and I think you do you are also alluding to like sensibilities and sensitivities Right that you’re bringing in that are something beyond sets of propositions or even individual techniques That’s fair that’s a fair representation Like what are they? Sorry, I warned you it’d be a challenging question But I know you put a lot of thought into this because you course you’re teaching others and you have taught others for a long time Your leadership position what what is this? Well, I mean the first competency that we have is self awareness and interpersonal grace Competency, okay. So so who are you? Okay. What do you bring? You know what? How do you say it propositionally and do you understand it? Procedurally participatory what I am, right? Okay So so I need to know that and then I need to know how to match myself other You know pairing so that I’m gonna know what I am and know how to read who I’m with Okay, and know how to adjust in a dynamic interactive flow capacity the dance Between me and that okay, if it’s okay with you, do you mind if I interrupt that? I mean so that for right again, that’s really that’s really crucial Because you see this I mean this is the this this is the the major I mean Sarah Abel Rapis argue for this and Gonzalez on the books on Socratic Deologos and Scrape practice, right the idea and and more is doing it too in Socratic self-knowledge that this ability to enter into Deologos is deeply dependent upon and afforded by a Specific and profound kind of self-knowledge because that’s what you were just talking about there and you said it you you said it’s not Just your beliefs or your image There’s there’s more to that because you then said it allows you to it goes back to this mutual shaping I was talking about earlier and allows you to start to engage in the mutual shaping with your with your client. I take it. I’m so I’m sorry. I hope you’re not frustrated. I want to slow down and what’s that self-knowing? Right, right Is this okay with you? What I’m doing? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely So, I mean, you know in our world certainly a lot of that is that well Why do we really encourage people to go to therapy? Right why why in our supervision do we you know as supervisors notice when people get anxious notice when people you know? Avoid certain topics notice people have certain kinds of ticks and why do we make that in a in a tactful way? But in also in a direct way, why do we make that conscious? Mmm, I know because you got to deal with your shadow the thing you did with Anderson Todd, you know that that was a wonderful there if I get that name, right? I think Perfect, so he his narrative at the end of that where he hates that guy, you know that talkative know-it-all guy which by the way This is a particular narrative that I could relate to okay, and then you split it off Okay, because I yes, I talk a lot and I’m not an arrogant know-it-all guy Right, but that guy is and I know why I don’t like it, right? So that was a wonderful moment in which our tendency to justify Consciously splits us off from some aspects of ourselves. So that’s a conscious relative to who we are There’s also all the stuff that we talk about. Well, I’m a white guy, you know You know in a middle age that comes from a particular background Well, it’s the salience factor of that if all of a sudden I sit down with somebody from India You know or whatever, of course, so so it’s that kind of those are propositional elements and then there’s just a lot of immersion Right, you know, like you were talking about like Tai Chi I think you know It’s just sort of like, you know You got to get in there and do it and get some feedback and create that immediate, you know feedback flow So so there’s that and let me also say there’s in the unified framework. Okay The unified framework had argues that we have a relation of pre propositional relational system of adaptation that I map through what’s called the influence matrix And that influence matrix is the way we create intuitive self other Representational spaces right right and place ourself on vertical axes of power You know briefly horizontal reactions of affiliation Autonomy axes of engagement and we’re constantly fine-tuning those kinds of things and we’re constantly then having an intuitive sense of ourself in relation Okay, so when you were saying is this okay? Is this okay? Right? You were intuitively checking. Oh gosh Am I dominating am I pushing this I want to make sure we’re working right exactly. Thank you. That’s that was good One of the things I think that’s important I’ve been talking to guy about this is the degree to which in genuine dia logos You can move between explication and then pointing to how the dialogue itself is Exemplifying a lot of the stuff you want to be talking about so you’re constantly moving back between sort of theory and theoria So I so let me let me sort of this is what I heard you saying I heard you saying no, we’re not talking about sort of people’s you know Just they’re sort of standard sort of autobiography or you know the beliefs they have about you know You’re not discarding that but that’s massively insufficient what you’re trying to get at is you’re trying to get out how the process the ongoing continual dynamic process of how they’re assuming an identity and assigning identities to things is actually skewing their their perspective It’s it’s a lens through which and it’s a two-way lens It’s a lens through which they’re seeing the world and themselves and you’re trying to get them If you’ll allow me to sort of do this, right? No, no step back and Become aware of that become aware of how the identification the co-identification process and the salience landscaping are deeply interpenetrating and bound together and that’s a that’s a profound kind of Well that I could see that I could see why first of all two things I can see why that really requires You know that you you be in therapy or you know practice, you know, you have undergone therapy Is that the right word in order to practice therapy? Sure that brings me to the point that Because this sounds like a very and this is against deeply Socratic This is a deeply threatening thing to do I would imagine this kind of self-knowing that you’re talking about Yes. Yes, because it’s but and again, I’ll put it in the language of the unified theory. So why it’s the idea essentially that shapes the Human eye that assume I as an I am Is a mental organ of justification in other words It’s fundamentally sits to give an account of the self in this social field that legitimizes some aspect of it Right by definition that also creates a shadow of what is not legitimate in relation, right? And so what’s threatening is that the system will have consistency it will have its certain biases It’s confirmation biases and tendencies and that will create a cognitive stability that if you challenge will get cognitive dissonance Right and then you get anxiety and psychodynamic defense that tries to Restabilize and split off and so it’s very hard to have the courage to enter into that space and that open oneself up And say oh my god Maybe I am kind of an arrogant person or maybe I am really insecure about this and I compensate Through that and now all of a sudden as I encounter that it’s like But if you’re held as you encounter it you can then include and transcend it rather than split it off This is beautiful great because what we’ve done is we’ve shown right now that we’ve said, you know The the deal logos depends on the self knowing but notice in the end how the self-knowing in turn depends on the deal logos If I’m not in the dialogue the therapeutic dialogue, I can’t actually get the self knowing that I need to enter in properly into Dialogue is that a fair represent? And it goes to our relational system in the fundamental structure of ourselves as social animals James Mark Baldwin One of the greatest developmental psychological developmental theorists says ego and altar are born together. Yes Right, so it’s sort of like and that’s what the the influence matrix says is he’s not just self It’s self in relation to other that we carry in our internal working models, you know our history of a parents I mean, this is classic psychodynamic insight is I think you were in a conversation was it with Anderson Todd’s like We’re are we know our parents before we know ourselves Yeah So look at the relational yeah aspect and the mirroring of course mirror neurons and all that stuff but You know, absolutely. It’s deeply relational. Okay So I found this first move. I think I found this tremendously Elucidating, you know that like I said how we’ve really dug deeply into the mutual affordance of Self-knowing and deal logos. So that was so you said that’s the first thing But I hope I think that the interruption was was fruitful, right? Right, right Well, so that was the first thing you look for in competence now take me if you can take like lights Maybe do we could do this step by step then what? Layer beyond that and then we can try to unpack that well the it actually this is still Competently level one is really itself and then interpersonal grace basically Interpersonal grace that’s I mean The and it is sort of this artistic impression of somebody’s capacity to enter in to various kinds of relations with a high degree of Probabilistic outcome that they will achieve flow and dance At a very basic level for instance your capacity to be say empathetic and compassionate With another okay But there would also be cognitive components right there Like ability to reframe Flexibility the things that flow right of course. Yeah. Yeah Take a level. I mean if you go back to the oldest stuff and assertive Training right you you when do you err on the side of passiveness when you err on the side of aggressiveness? How do you speak with I statements instead of your this and those kinds of things so you can create propositional skill You know knowledge, okay, but then of course as you know as our as we were discussing It’s there’s one thing to know conceptually how to shoot a basketball. There’s another Shoot a basket right and there’s another one thing to know you know and people you know there’s a there’s a whole set of Ideas for example on people that are on the spectrum You know the spectrum right and if you know Simon Baron Cohen’s work on this the idea is mind blindness Is a particular kind of issue And so without getting too much into it, but people who write neuro atypical in relation will often have Difficulty on picking up on fine-grained subtleties right okay that other people that have particular kinds of capacities I’m sure you’ve met people that are unbelievably good at just instantaneously Tracking you know and making you feel known you know and and and just enter into that with you before you know with very little Knowledge of you in the background they just know how to yeah Anderson Anderson Todd is particularly gifted Very much so I I Sort of divine that you probably are as well so once so you you you get you get this and then you do you the grace is kind of an You’re looking for again. You said probabilistic Lee’s not deterministic, but you brought in general can people can they sort of? Play with the parameters of dialogue so that flow emerges is that is that correct is that a way right right? And we and then we particularly look you know as psychotherapists We’re particularly looking for those emotionally hot socio-emotionally hot episodes, okay? and then your capacity to Stay engaged and skillful in those things so that would be when you get activated You know somebody says something that clashes with your belief value set somebody says you know how do you approach them? How do you in fact the whole we stopped briefly about calm mo that right? That’s integrative psychotechnology that psychological mind calm mo is exactly the set of sort of encapsulated Psychotechnologies great that are oriented towards fostering that let’s take a moment Let’s take a moment For you to I think that’s important that connection you just made I’m familiar with it because you’ve been in discussion with me But I can see that you know I can foresee that you know some of my listeners might that acronym might have gone by too fast No, but you bring so I think there’s two points There’s two points here looks at the next sort of level of confidence You’re looking for is their ability to enter into what did you call them socio-emotional hot spots is that? great catch And then they have to maintain and note I want to sort of get people to pay attention to this a presence of mine And that’s a normativity of perspectival knowing remaining get getting that sense of presence Which is different from compositional conviction or even your skills are working well Can you say present like can you? Presence of mind and you have a particular Psychotechnology be all on my term for affording that I now call it that Allow it I’ve internalized So unpack calm mo for us, please okay, right so actually we’ll do it real fast I’m now in introduce this this is another thing I get from you. I spent a lot of time with you John You don’t know it okay, so now the first thing I’ll do is calm body right right okay, so find your center line saver your body You know five minutes a day. I do that right great Thanks for you, okay, so and now that I just opens me up actually to a whole bunch of meditative kinds of things so calm body Okay, and then what I was developing was psychological mindfulness, okay? What do I mean by that? It’s a presence of your capacity when we come into psychotherapy what we’re actually engaged in isn’t Psychological mindfulness basically you know what we’re trying to do is increase awareness in a non-judgmental Accepting way of the person the situation they’re in their problem Possibilities right you know it’s basically that so then if we have a census That look like that environment well, then can you create that? Perspectively in your head can you open up a space where you see yourself in this way step outside of your? Subjectivity and become the object of your attention right and that’s MO. That’s your metacognitive observer So that’s calm MO of calm what now we’re in calm mind And what we’re trying to do is cultivate a metacognitive observer that can step outside the flow where the flow becomes the object Of our attention right right right so it’s a meta move Outside of the stream so the stream becomes an observer seagull has the idea that Mindfulness is in fact an ability to internalize mind sight resonance yes Well that would be very very consistent with that okay, and then the question is well. How do you achieve resonance? What is the and this gets into then and I like seagull by the way is a very very interesting an interpersonal neurobiology Is a great integrative frame of reference okay that cuts across a wide variety of domains But so now all of a sudden yes, but now we want to create resonance Well, what is what it what are the attitudinal signals and and frames that we want to offer to do that? Okay, and calm is an acronym that gives you the Attitudinal frames of reference and it starts with the word curiosity right right so curious So we want an open and wondering mind that asks questions and explores okay rather than one that closes down And a certain closure I’m losing to huh oh Closure you know there’s a closure right there’s all this emerging work on people who prematurely seek cognitive closure That’s right. They want an answer so they know what to do right right right they need to make sense out of it quickly Yeah, it’s a state of anxiety and then you know and we and so then there’s there’s that and each one of these you Can put them on a continuum so you can you know curiosity can go to its opposite, okay? Then the next one is acceptance Okay, so it caught the a and commas acceptance and this this ranges anywhere from Buddhist notions to a detachment To dialectical behavior therapy of distress tolerance, okay the capacity to hold one’s Experience and say it is what it is the capacity to be and ideally be okay in a Buddha mind Okay, so that’s the second the L is loving compassion. Okay. This is holding people with dignity and respect Wishing they didn’t suffer and that’s very much true for me as it is to you Creating a meta and the TTA frame of mind and an eastern way and then finally M M stands to motivated toward valued states of being in the short and long term Okay, so in the short term is like okay. I’m in the proximal situation. What do I want out of this hour? Okay, and if I get into a fight with somebody how do I want it to end as I walk out the door? Okay, that’s short term and then ultimately the long term Okay The who do across all the way up to what some people in what’s called act is a particular kind of therapy They also use the exercise of eulogy values. Okay, so what what do you want somebody to say at your funeral? That would connect to some sort of divine double image Part sounds deeply aspirational Yes, exactly When I create an image of what it is we could be and then utilize that for relevance realization down the line in the imaginal Sense of image in the imaginal sense not imaginary right exactly in the end so that we can see and know and make and create It through this particular kind of working symbol, right and then it becomes Co-creative, you know, that’s us the beauty of so So do you do a lot of like I mean I’ve as you know I teach people the past and I teach the meta I teach in Tai Chi 20 taking two courses when you’re like So do you spend a lot of time when you’re trying to move people into this deeper level of confidence? Are you doing lots of just exercise practice with comment calm mo exercises? Is that you do a lot of that kind of thing? Yeah, I mean it’s you you sort of hand people this outline Okay, and certainly in the kinds of psychotherapy and depending on where they are They then bring it back each week and and we sort of go through a zone of proximal development, right? Of course, yeah what I have not done. What is what is in the works right now? I mean, this is now just a psychotechnology that I’m sharing And inside the program that I operate, you know, everyone knows what calm mo is and it’s useful Okay, it has not been turned into a product, you know, that’s like, okay Well, and I don’t mean that negatively I think it really I see this as something that could be really useful. I do hate I’ve always had an issue with sort of like, you know, try to create recipes But this really is the kind of this is the kind of psychotechnology that I find Does is justice to both enough of the principles and it’s complete enough and yet it’s dynamic enough and fosters the participatory Elements that doesn’t and it doesn’t get corrupted By that’s what I’m trying as really trying to do is how do you create these things that don’t then just become algorithms like a CBT? Right that then get corrupted and then turn people into little cultural code robots if they’re successful We don’t really want all right, what’s the key to happiness? Oh, well, these are the four steps and now you’re done So that’s really cool No, what I mean is I mean the idea as a whole school But what you just said there at that last moment the way you’re trying to frame it I like so almost like you always you want to always be sort of zonal proximal development You want to give enough so that people Right get a sense of what you’re doing, but you don’t want to you don’t want to you know You say you don’t want to make it an algorithm They always have to sort of tap into right the transformative percent potential of perspectival and participatory knowing in order to keep getting What the common oh calm mo actually means that’s what I was hearing from you. Absolutely. Absolutely I’m really I’m also one of the things that I’ve adopted lately Very much is the language of the soul spirit. Okay, I didn’t used to use that But it is the I use I use it soul in terms of its original firm I actually I listened to you. I think you said it was stales that said psyche is the oldest is like Mind movement did I catch that correctly or more? It’s the idea I mean the original is breath and wind but it’s right off moving The breath and wind that seems to be what my mental states share with with why I was immediate You know, I’m obsessed with this concept of psychology and you know, my basic definition of psychology is the science of mental behavior Okay, so mind movement and mental behavior. I was all excited. I was like I was walking around. I was like, oh my god I gotta go read tales Anyway, but but yes, this is this challenge. Okay to create this To give people frames but then to create their own development That’s why I was getting back to the soul thing is I love the idea of the soul as your unique particular Perspectival, you know place in the world. Okay, so So there is I say there is no science of Greg Henriquez You know because I’m the unique ideographic particular. I’m not the inductive generalized. There’s a science of human behavior They’re not really a science of Greg Henriquez. No, they can’t be I get right But there can be a soul of Greg Henriquez, right? Right, right, right, right. I get that right Okay, so now with that you can then embrace the unique Ideographic real right individual as that that’s the humanistic. That’s that that’s the fundamental challenge of humanism In this regard. So anyway, that’s I use that so it is that dialectic always between sort of inductive general How does it work? But also how is it contextualized in the unique particular? No, no, I think that’s really valuable. I mean that that is so consonant with with a base book, you know Socratic wisdom and platonic knowledge because It’s a pattern wisdom what you’re supposed to do It’s a book that’s informing the work I’m doing up for after Socrates But the the Socratic wisdom is exactly that coming into a deep kind of remembrance. I’ll use your language I’m uncomfortable with it a bit for reasons that you probably aware But I’ll use your language nevertheless because I want to play fair with you But I mean the Socratic wisdom is to come into a deep remembrance not just belief set but like very much what we’re talking about Coming into a deep remembrance of your soul and that as you said is always in a dialectic with the platonic project of trying to get Generalized knowledge and understand Plato creates the first psychological theory that we’re aware of, you know The three parts of the psyche and all that which we keep just rediscovering in the West I thought what you just said there was deeply convergent with her argument because she was also saying, you know Those two if you lose either one of these poles you you’re kind of moving toward you’re losing Right, you’re you’re losing the Socratic project She makes this argument for sort of which is a very neoplatonic argument that you need to see these two together You need to see the the remembering like in Sati Remembering of the soul but that always has to be in dialogue and vice versa with as you said the inductive generalization the The knowledge the knowledge of you know, what human beings are and so I mean I try to capture that in there in the dialogue In my own work between cognitive science Existential phenomenological Yeah, that’s the humanistic and the scientific I mean the we wrote about this in the 11th, you know part two I use your Thing to look at myself and my tree of knowledge inside, you know Lightbulb flash that you know, all of a sudden it drew it out and I still to this day I’m like god that was like the whole thing almost, you know And it was this unbelievable intersection between my unique Particular knowledge and my Sati island. It’s like I remembered this stuff, you know, it was like it was there all along It was this very very very Powerful experience along those lines. So we’re really really cool. Well, yeah That Yeah, thank you for sharing about that. I thought I thought in addition to its theoretical import I thought it was a nice rhetorical flourish I mean that as a compliment to the blog because when you when you brought in that personal story I think that gives people a much more concrete and accessible understanding of the kind of stuff they were talking about Right. Well, I and I think that’s an To nod to your point about participatory, you know, I mean, you know why? That’s how we embody stuff right I mean why the Advertisements for getting money to say Africa, you know when they list three million children, you know Propositionally you get one thing when you see one child, right? And then all the money flows in and then the reason is because there’s a there’s a participatory Perspectival connection to that that’s very different, you know, and so it’s that juxtaposition So I think there’s a deep connection Then between These two things so you remember I was talking about earlier how there’s this movement in genuine dialogue between sort of explication of an idea and then Turning back recursively and saying how is it exemplified in what we’re doing right here now It’s a constant moving between theory and theory or you’re constantly doing that and that seems to be a way in which we’re tapping Into this point that you’ve just made we’re talking we’re constantly also trying to keep the dialogue going between the soul and The best knowledge we have of human nature if you’ll allow me That’s what I mean when I talk about scientific humanistic dialectic. Yeah, that’s very very much And I see good and see what what I’m trying to do with the work I’m doing with Guy Sandstock and while with Christopher master Pietro and Jordan Hall because I’m trying to take that I’m trying to take things like circling and some of the work You know I had a couple I’ve had a really couple of really interesting discussions with Edwin As well with his empathy circling, but I’m trying to understand. Okay, right? how can we take like say for example circling and this is a Guy is really really involved in this way. I want to I want to properly share credit here Tremendous amount of work I’m doing with Chris. I hear what you’re saying and you want to give credit to Guy And also to Chris Literally written the chapter on dialogos and all of that so But what I’m trying to get at is take something like circling which is about setting up this alliance and getting the flow Going right in collective intelligence, but then introducing some of these more Neocratic elements into it that we’ve been talking about here so that it’s the circle is not always just about circling and Where people are in their lives, but you could get the circle to circle around circum andulate topics like yes And meaning making that we’re not only talking about but exemplifying in the dialogue and we could move between Explication and exemplification we could move between how we internalize it in our soul And how we try to fit it into our best science of human beings That’s what I want guys sometimes calls this circling 2.0. That’s what so that’s part of the project Well, that’s unbelievably because then what you’re basically doing for my vanishing and I’ll see if I can put it in your language You know is it’s the intersection of the four P’s embodied. Yes. Yes, very much. Very very much totally embodied enacted and enacted in a way Right that’s open to what we were talking about before that it there’s an emergence ability to it Can transcend itself as a process? It’s not bound in it can’t be turned into a recipe or an algorithm because it’s there’s an ongoing Constitutive recognition that its ability to transcend itself in emergence is what this is ultimately all about. That’s right That’s right, and we can follow the line all the way up to relevance realization And that I mean to me I’m working with this other a good friend of mine Michael Mascolo a sophisticated developmental psychologist and He you know talks about creating the good society and how we need to build bridges Okay, and what it fundamentally it is is you know, he likes the kind of it’s the fear for self In other words, I got to protect myself and the love for the other and how do we hold that in particular ways? And then how do we do it so that we understand where the divide is and then how do we bridge the divide to create common ground? Okay that grounds us, you know, and what I would say from the tree of knowledge perspective is we want to ground ourselves propositionally in good Justification systems and we want to ground ourselves relationally in and manifesting what I call relational value That’s being known and valued by important others, right? Right, we create that relational feel the justificatory field as we engage in these kinds of endeavors Then we actually are creating the common ground Through and through through the 4p level, you know, and that’s the kind of system That was a very nice piece of integration you just did thank you for that that was very good I like that so once once you get people sort of You know getting a kind of expertise of the even that’s the right word with calm mo What’s next I mean I keep turning back to the pedagogical program that you’re taking people through because I really try and we this is this has turned So what I was hoping for has come to fruition This has turned out to be such a rich place to zoom in and try and you know, unpack it very carefully So is that is that a culminating thing or what what happens next? Yeah, I mean, you know, i’m i’m very much involved. Well, i’m involved in lots of different Yeah, I know that my system took me a lot of different places john And so I got a lot of visions for it You know, uh, but so actually you’re right. The unified framework has three different sort of really pieces. Okay One is a theory of knowledge and wisdom writ large. Okay, so it’s a meta synthetic Meta psychology a new way of thinking about philosophy really a sort of to launch an enlightenment 2.0 kind of vision Okay I was I was telling my wife last night because I had heard the Mind in motion kind of thing. I was like, yes We need to take newton’s matter in motion and we need to add a conciliant mind in motion on top of it, right? Okay, so there’s that and then there’s the unit and related to that is this really unified theory of psychology Which then hones in on cognitive science and all of that stuff at the theoretical architecture and then there’s the unified approach Which is at the doctoral level? Okay How would a doctoral level psychologist be an applied professional? Okay, and learn how to be in relation to the socio-emotional problems that people have Okay, and then how do we extract all of those things out into psycho technologies that then can be shared? Okay, so you don’t have to be a doctoral level psychology Okay, and and so what commo out is is a really a distillation of the applied? Principles that can organize socio-emotional process Um, especially when people get bumped by uh, you know defense and activation and trouble and shadow Uh and conflict and then activate commo And that’s really cool Okay. Well, i’m gonna have to start bringing this towards closure But I would like I want to invite you to have another one of these discussions with me Um, I love playing jazz with you, man. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. I found this tremendously fruitful Um, so I mean you’ve given me you’ve written me of some topics and we can pick those up But there’s a general theme that was sort of backgrounded behind this That maybe we could foreground the next time we talk which is and it you know And you alluded to it explicitly a few times which is you know this idea about what’s the relationship between? Science and spirituality for us here now. What does that mean? Not just theoretically but the way we’ve been talking in a way that gets a transformative purchase on our lives So that people can engage in the transformations the cultivation of wisdom, etc That is needed to address what I call the meeting crisis. I’d like to pick that up with you Brilliant and i’ll throw out there the idea that you know, as you know, we shared a Series of emails and came to the theory and practice of relevance realize of transcendent realization Yes, exactly, and i’d like to pick that up with you and and I will tell you that uh that day Um, I had an hour-long conversation my father, um, uh a former evangelical turned atheist Okay, so he’s on both sides of the theist and then an atheist kind of divide And i’ve been trying to cultivate in a minute a non-theist Or synthetist kind of view and I walked him through the idea that you can transcend your ego state, you know Uh and and create a transcendent egoic Kind of perspective and and if large numbers of people do that are potential to realize uh A world and making create a world That is quite different and quite more fulfilling and wiser and he really he really tapped that so we can really maybe Let’s do that. I like that and and I like the I want to pick up on the connection you also made uh to that idea about transcendence realization and um the the A discussion around uh, theism atheism non-theism non-theism and synthetism, which is alexander bard alexander Well, i’ve embraced it i’ve there’s some aspects and shades of bard’s work, you know that You know, I have a slightly different feel on but the concept of synthetism in my own I have often said hey I’m an american synthetist. I’ve found myself saying that because I believe in the idea of God or the god beyond god where where the create the divine double, uh and embrace the idea of that is a spiritual Lode star. I mean I I used to be the scientific atheist completely is like ah and now I really see the modernist uh mentality cuts undercuts the humanistic capacity for Transcendence in a deeply problematic way and it doesn’t have to uh, and we can all be better off if we if we see the path For that wow greg that’s such a pregnant and provocative ending way Now everybody will definitely want to uh, uh tune into our next conversation. I i i really look forward to it, man Yeah, and so me too. I’m gonna end the recording right now