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Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Bruce. He’s a Calvinist software developer with four children and he has an affinity for music which is going to be the subject of our discussion today. So yeah, Bruce, what do you define as music? I would say as a joyful noise is the easiest way to say it, but I would also say one, you know, a way to structurally portray beauty or an idea through song, whether that’s instrumental or vocal. Okay, so I want to poke a little bit at this portrayal of an idea. Can you expand on what that means? Yeah, sure. So portraying your ideas, truths, false emotions based on truth, feelings that are difficult to describe in words or even that are easy to describe in words, attempting to come at that with the art of song or melodies and rhythm. You know, that’s kind of what I think people are attempting to do when they create music or portray ideas through music. Is that also what you try to do? Yeah, I think so. It is interesting though because there are different uses for the same art in some ways. You know, they all kind of strike it something similar, but they can be used in different ways. You know, is this kind of that discussion between like is propaganda art or is art art or can music be propaganda? Can music is music art? But I think there are different facets of music that can be seen from multiple directions. But what I try and do is use that in many ways. You know, because there’s so many applications for music. So is there a reason why you’re exploring these many ways? Is that because you’re trying to look for D-way or you want to have like sort of a grasp on all the options? I think I’m mostly just trying to attempt to describe what seems to arise somewhat naturally or you know, even maybe ontologically out of life. So there are purposes that people have and how is music used in those purposes? And sometimes that’s, you know, there’s a lot of reasons. There’s for sake of, well you have a lack of words that maybe you couldn’t have the propositional language to describe what you’re wanting to describe. And so you just make noise and sometimes that noise is put together in a pattern or a structure that other people can relate with and maybe repeat. That would be the most basic. But I also think that we’re kind of, we’re born with a nature that wants to create music in some form. So is there a particular goal that you strive for when you make music? Yeah, that’s what I mean. There are two different ways of doing it, I guess, or more than two, but there’s many ways that achieve it. Sometimes I like to create just to see where my skills lie. Like, you know, I could be walking around and have a melody in my head and sometimes it’s difficult to put the melody onto sheet music or to on the keys or onto the guitar. But I’ll try that sometimes and I’ll just have a motif or an idea of melody or rhythm in my head and I may pick up an instrument and try to play it. Why? It’s interesting. Why do I want to play it? Sometimes it’s an earworm and it just keeps going on in my head over and over. And whether that’s original or something I’ve heard before that I just keep repeating for some reason, it just seems to be the way that like some of my self-talk works. I just have this melody or rhythmic pattern that occurs as I’m doing things. It especially happens when I’m like most recently I was building a gazebo or pergola structure outside and if I’m not listening to music, while I’m moving I’m hearing a melody or a rhythm in my head as I’m doing things. And I think it helps me, probably helps me keep momentum in some way. I’m not really sure why, but I think we have a nature that just sort of wants to be patterned, you know, rhythmic or melodic in some fashion. Yeah and I think that’s part of our nature that God created us with. So the music is making that somewhat explicit, so is there any value in having that what is inside as explicit? Like does that allow you for new insights? I think so. I think also it just tends to solidify and otherwise what might be considered an abstract feeling or thought that isn’t really put in a particular place. So you can say, okay, I’ve had this thing kind of rolling around in my brain, let me put it down. It’s sort of almost an anxious energy sometimes. That could be unique to me though, I don’t really have any basis to say that’s universal. So is this solidifying something like naming it? Like it’s anchoring it, it’s giving it a body, I guess? Maybe, that’s a one way to see it I suppose. You’re kind of creating a tangible form of what only existed in your thoughts or sounds so that you can, one of the things I think happens with music, especially with singing or putting things into instrumentation, is it takes what was somewhat of a difficult concept to distill down to someone else and you’re able to sort of distill down, you kind of do this with language in a way, what you were feeling, thinking or had in your brain. And so sometimes it’s for repeatability so you could do it again and other times it’s just to like, hey listen, let me listen to this and maybe other people will listen to it too but it just kind of creates a tactile or a feeling that was only once immaterial to the material now. Well I would say, you know, physically material. They’re debatable whether or not the thoughts in your brain are material or not but that’s as possible they are. Yeah, yeah, well there’s a sense of, well the thing that isn’t there, right, like in some sense it isn’t real yet, right, like there’s a potential or something and you’re grasping at it and then when you put it out there, right, like then like you said it is solidified, right, like it’s now spoken. I think it also makes it easier to fix or reshape it as you go on so like you may have a feeling in your brain or a melody or rhythm and you never build upon it very well or maybe you wish that you could expand it because you enjoyed that initial rhythm and so putting it down makes you analyze that piece and maybe more things will arise out of that so you know you kind of have the ability to experience the manifestation of the feeling or the music and then I think it will give birth to a lot of other new ideas when you do that. So in some sense you’re taking it out of time then that allows you to reflect on it in a different way than you just experience it in flow. Yeah, yeah, it’s an interesting thing to feel the music in your brain and then put it down on paper or in an instrument or in some way manifested physically and I think that’s where some of the best composers in history have been able to take what’s in their brain and put it on paper or on an instrument and have others experience a portion of that themselves. I don’t know that it’s possible truly for a person to experience it the same way. We’ll just take Beethoven for instance who’s famous for this sort of thing where he would he would had just melodies all over his brain all the time and would have to put them into you know a piano piece or a score for an entire orchestra. I would imagine only because I felt this way putting it down it’s never quite as clear as it was initially in your brain but other times it makes clarity out of something that was otherwise chaotic because sometimes it’s hard to recreate that initial feeling of melody that you once had. How do I get that back? It’s kind of this feeling of man I had this euphoric or this dopamine you know whatever language want to use the initial conception of the song or the tune of the melody and it felt so good at the time. It’s always hard to get that back I think though the way that it once was when it was truly the first time you had experienced it. I think people see this in lots of things in their lives and you also tend to build things up in your brain or in your thoughts or feelings then you experience them and they’re not satisfying as you may have thought they should be. This is really an interesting lane of music talk I guess. Yeah so what it brought up to me is your programming right so in some sense the music is like a graphical user interface right which is presenting well what is behind it to the user right and I’m like can you really present to the person the thing that right like the the idea in your head that that is yeah that gives birth to all of all of these things on the screen. That’s a good way to see it in some ways. Yeah I mean I think many graphic you know UI or UX designers could put themselves in the position of art. Music is just maybe another medium of art but yeah you can see that it’s sort of the canvas creation when you’re putting it down on paper or onto an instrument or into song. You’re creating the canvas that other people can see. I think some people have this there’s been there’s a whole world of thought where like you shouldn’t let anyone see your art right is that the motivation for creating it. I don’t know how I feel about that. I don’t think that we are to keep it in. I think it’s good to be reoriented though because we have a lot of part of our nature is imperfect so it’s good to also put things out there to be corrected. I think that’s part of our nature too is to correct one another and bear with each other our failings in some way. So sometimes putting out the thoughts or the ideas of music that you might have in your brain and putting them out there for correction or just to consumption and then they may be corrected. They may be corrected. We’ll yield growth, fruit, sanctification however you want to see it for the individual. So you’re religious right you’re a Christian so is there a connection with with the worship and the music as well? Yeah for me personally I mean that’s kind of how I’ve got brought into the church was music initially. So you know it has a fond memory for my growth. Music is how I engaged with the church at large from an early age. So yeah I think we’ll get into that I guess. Yeah but there’s also like I do believe that there’s a principle of worship music for others to consume that’s practical and also theological for my convictions. So how is that distinct from other music? So music created for the corporate worship venue or the gathering of the saints in obedience I think has a particular purpose that should be accessible and hold to the same confession that you all are gathering and holding to. There’s a particular regulative principle that comes by way of what I would say is scripture special revelation that gives us this in a way that we should gather sing and worship. And so in the same way that we have a lot of passions desires and you know ambitions those ambitions are and passions and desires are corrected and funneled in a way that is I think prosperous for the church at large by way of the church itself. So you have that way of guiding you to keep you straight and narrow as it were and the submission to that body the church is how the music would fit. Yeah so it has to be submitted because you’re making a connection to a propositional claim right of profession but you’re also more relating to a spirit when you’re talking about submission right? Where in the case of submission I’m saying submitting the music to the body at large the church and to God’s law so our submission to that should we should we should strive to as Christians in my case when I say we Christians should strive to perform our acts of worship in a way that is pleasing to God and the way that we would know what’s pleasing to God is how he’s told us what is pleasing to him and the way we know or have been told or taught what is pleasing is through his special revelation the word by way of the church. Okay so yeah let’s start about your first experience with music. Oh I don’t know my first experience in music I’m sure it’s in the womb. The one that you remember that stood out. That’s really hard to say I’ve been I’ve thought of this before. I don’t know I mean I’ll just go back to a formative part I was in I was 11 years old I think and we were in class and in school and a part of our morning routine was to sing a song in the class which I thought was cool and I was singing and my teacher came up to me and said you need to go see the choir director because you can sing and so that was that really I guess launched me into the choir career or choir realm at sixth grade so 11 years old or so. That was that’s one of the earliest experiences I have when someone said hey you can sing or hey you can you can perform. Now I also had before that I’d been started like I started at I think nine years old playing saxophone but singing wasn’t something that I think I mean I did it in school as part of corporate singing with other people in church if I had ever gone but singing with other people in church if I had ever gone but that was the first time where someone told me you need to pursue this. The reason why it’s formative is because it really did shape the direction of you know the choices that I made later because I really I shaped my my choices of school and desires to that music you know progression. It’s part of the reason why I went to college you know it’s part of the reason why I went to church all of those things because I was pursuing music as a passion and truly was what is the term I guess inspired or affirmed that that was a good thing to pursue. So being in a choir especially in the church means that you’re performing a lot. Yeah sure. Does it change from having music through lessons or? I think there’s yeah it is different actually because there’s I’ve done multiple two different kinds of lessons taking I’ve done lessons one-on-one with the with the teacher and but you also in a choir and in band you get lessons like corporately so they’ll they’ll sort of teach the entire group and you have to try and you know replicate what they’re telling you to do so yeah there is a difference there but it’s it’s it’s harder but I will say like the majority of the progress made at least skill wise in music is individual and for me it’s the time is individual and for me it’s the time in the practice room or you know with you and your instrument whether that’s your voice or your instrument that you hold or touch that time you put in you know the woodshed as it were and you know grind away at improving the craft or attempting to get better at what you want to come out of your head or what you should be practicing you know there’s no substitute for hard practice and hard work in that regard it’s is there a way that you learn or are you just literally grinding and repeating stuff or are you trying to do things in a specific manner yeah I think I have a pretty good ear when I say that I mean I can hear something and and play it on piano or guitar or vocals pretty well so the way I practiced for a long time was to listen to something and attempt to recreate it and then that sort of came with like the idea of creation of my own stuff so it would hear it in my head and attempt to create it but there’s a whole other skill that the pedagogical skill or the learning that was it was somewhat harder for me in some ways because there’s a craft to honing the skills around like particular music for instance if your teacher professor gives you pieces to learn you know scales songs whatever doing them to a to a level of perfection or a level that’s acceptable you know that was always that was always harder for me but I did okay at that I did fine at that but I didn’t enjoy it in the same way that I enjoyed there’s a difference in the same way that I enjoyed there’s a different type of satisfaction there’s a satisfaction of like man I created this out of something in my head or I heard something and now I can play it that’s awesome and then there’s another satisfaction of like I practice this piece or these sets of arpeggios from my you know professor for hours and hours and hours and he said good job that’s another set of satisfaction one is I think one is easier to pull off than the other for some people but it’s one of the things that people tend to think is there’s less joy in the pursuit of a piece that’s pre-written and you have to grind it out and do it well some people find less joy in that I think I might be in that camp too it was much harder but there was much less fun than the spontaneous sort of things that I would do but I also think that they’re essential because they helped shape my skills and get better because it forces me to kind of go outside of what I’ve been comfortable in. So when you got into the choir was all this more advanced understanding already there or were you just overwhelmed by what was presented to you? It’s hard to remember I already knew how to read music because I would I’d been reading it since I think second or third grade with basic we start we would start in rhythm instruments in school and then the recorder which is a basic sort of clarinet type instrument that’s made of plastic in our case so I’d already been reading it was advanced in that you learn to control an aspect of your body that you had really taken for granted I guess which is your wind breath and vocal cords you know I think that’s I take that for granted probably today even even still but there’s a interesting skill of learning to manipulate your vocal cords and have what you hear in your head come out your mouth without manipulating a machine to do it it comes easier as you keep doing it but thinking about it now it still is kind of a wild concept in a way that I can hear a pitch and sing it in my head you know or hear hear it on the piano and I don’t have perfect pitch which is a whole other thing which is if you told me to sing a C sharp right now I wouldn’t be able to without hearing it first but I could make a note and sing it but I can’t I can’t I can’t I still can’t quite understand how that translates I think it’s really hard to to describe it but that was that was one of the more difficult things with music I think was learning to control your at least with choir learning to control your your breath and to hear before you sing the notes that you want to come out that’s a hard skill I imagine artists are in some of that camp where they see something in their brain and they could put it on paper I’ve never pursued that very much I think that’s pretty difficult but it’s similar in this way I guess you hear a pitch and you sing it so you you you’re put on this trajectory by going into the choir so how does that trajectory go well one of the cool things was I mean just like anecdotally or initially was I got out of I was in this um technical drawing class or sorry not technical drawing technical like drawing technical like like engineering sort of I forgot what they called it anyway I got out of that because I took a new elective called choir and that was great because I really hated this other class it was just like in sixth grade we’re building like bridges at a toothpick that kind of thing that engineering thing I really didn’t like that class um and not that the teacher anything was bad I don’t think I don’t remember all the details but I just remember it was great to do choir instead so that kind of became the pursuit the trajectory for me to the point where I was um I had uh decided to pursue music seriously I auditioned for multiple choirs I was in um church band church um choirs of places I didn’t even really go to I just wanted to go sing um whenever there was an opportunity to sing I just took the opportunity um it was a lot of fun uh I think also there’s a pride aspect uh in there that is hard to um to to maintain humility in that when you and I you know it’s something you have to come to grips with but like if you’re decent at something and you like it and you like getting praise for it sometimes that’s like a bad that’s a bad trajectory because you start just um doing all things for praise um so or at least in that regard so but it was nice to feel good you know at that you know um to be I made um like all state choir you know I mean auditions I was good at sight singing and sight reading um so leading up to um high school I um pursued music as a career or as a college degree um but I had also pursued music in the church which is where I really got um proper exposure to the body of believers those who um those who worshiped God with their song um outside of mere choral choral music that I thought was old and good to do good to learn but I didn’t really take it seriously until I um had gotten older and started leading other people in song at church um like specifically so that trajectory put me into college uh at that very college I met my now wife um so had I not pursued that discipline um I wouldn’t have been at that school to meet my wife there so that trajectory was fundamental um and you know just instrumental rather in getting getting me where I am today you know I like the pun yeah that’s a good pun um so uh yeah the thing that piqued me is so you’re you’re seeing people in in true worship I guess where in the choir so you’re coming into contact with with this well I guess way of being during the singing that that is alien to you at that point yeah because we had been doing like even in choir in in in school we’d done like a number of church songs as it were uh you know latin mass type um both like the order of the mass lots of different pieces from um history that were based in scripture or god or church but I’d never really put them together um until I guess I just sort of approached them as merely words on a page and just to you know to get the music portion out and not focus on the content well that once I started to pursue that in the um church more uh and you know also a really big shift happened at about 15 when I got my first guitar and learned guitar I taught myself and I could sing and play at the same time um it really changed a lot for me opened up doors and so I was able to go places and sing and play and that you know guitar and I didn’t learn piano I guess I could have learned I didn’t learn piano till college really uh not truly learn it I guess I could have been singing and playing that but even so it opened up a lot of doors and opportunities to go play at churches um and you know I was exposed to preaching the word uh exposed to the gospel very head-on um in a deliberate way uh that I think just convicted me and changed changed my life at that point um forever yes so what what do you mean had on like what does this shift look like um so I was I was in a multiple bands um in different churches uh and I was in a band that was leading a group of a group of um young adults uh and I was just sort of playing you know at first uh and then it was you know portrayed to me like hey we are um we’re here leading um people in song for a purpose um and then it was it was really given to me as this is the purpose and then I was sort of understood that we had a calling or at least we’ve been put into a position where you’re um I guess you’re you’re attempting to um speak truths through the music to glorify god not yourself um and that really changed that that really just opened up uh I guess my my heart at that point I was being converted or was converted in that position uh and I made a confession of faith and baptized uh you know in um college but at that point if I you know I believe that was where the calling and the drawing to god had occurred at that point because I’d been exposed to the true gospel or the you know the word that I think softened my heart truly um and that was just the means by which it occurred the means are different for other people but so when when you play the music um this this trying to give expression to truth um how does that change what you’re doing like are you trying to to draw something from outside of you into the room like like is there a phenomenological aspect to that I don’t know if it’s phenomenological I think just for me um it it sort of puts uh um it codifies the truth what I am doing and the purpose so it’s sort of like um many many people have a particular ability to do things when they’re born um you know what everyone has a certain abilities um but when when a person is transformed or changed um your those abilities are beginning in a process of sanctification I would call it a correction and so you start to have you have a new heart and a new orientation around what you’re doing and the purpose behind what you’re doing albeit imperfect I say as far as like god is concerned imperfect but the goal the orientation of your life is is radically changed in in a way that’s hard to describe but the the best way I can describe it is um your you’re much more intentional about what you’re doing as you’re convicted of um of the uh of the gravity of your of your um required obedience to god yeah so you’re bound by a set of constraints yeah did you experience being bound by a set of constraints and did you just swap to constraints or was that like a new experience I think in many ways it’s more difficult because there’s a there’s a set of constraints placed on you that requires submission um that’s hard to in so if you’re unconverted or you’re you know let’s say a non-believer you may do things thinking that they have no ultimate impact on you or others they just it’s just something you do for your own good pleasure um I think when one’s converted you realize that all that you’re doing is for god’s good pleasure so it’s harder in some ways to pursue that um because it’s so easy to slip into well I I don’t like this um I would rather do what I want to do um now how do you know what to do and that’s a good you know who tells you what to do um I think it’s twofold there’s there’s conviction that happens with a changed heart um by way of the law and then there’s also the body of believers in church and those who hold you accountable and both of those are for your you know to prosper you um not materially per se but to um you know continue to shape your life toward god so so I assume that you had accountability in the choir practice and stuff as well so they did something change in in the type of accountability I don’t know it may have been the same um as far as the accountability was at that point and it I may have even been told this before I’d have to think about it um why didn’t I not why did I not when I was singing in a choir in a small church when I was much younger maybe they had told me at that time even hey um you’re singing uh for a particular purpose here you’re leading music for the church there’s you know we have a very um a high calling here that must be taken seriously and I think what I at that point I was merely thinking of the music on the page meaning like it’s I must seriously execute these lyrics and pitches correctly um in unison with the choir um as opposed to what I experienced later which was no no the the perfection in your music is not the goal the goal is to do this in truth in spirit because god commands it of you um you know that’s a different a different constraint um and I think you know they’re what how things happen and when they happen in people’s lives is interestingly timed by god alone but you know I I’m sure that at some point when I was younger it was no hey we’re we’re leading the choir for this particular Easter service we’re talking about Christ and the resurrection where you know it’s a serious thing and for me it was mere ceremony for the music itself and so instance I just sort of saw the Easter service as a medium by which I could deliver a quality piece of music as opposed to um delivering a quality worship that would be pleasing to god so in some sense you got eyes to see and that shifted the way that you were participating did you also develop ears to hear whether other people were participating in truth like you said a equality that you can discern when other people play music I don’t know it’s hard sometimes I mean I think you do get um I think there’s some discernment that comes with for someone who’s born again with new eyes there is some new discernment but um sometimes it’s harder than others you know it’s hard to judge the heart but of another person directly you can sort of I mean there’s clearly there’s very blatant um violations of god’s law that are easy to see but you know I don’t know um that’s a good question I would say in the context of the choir or the context of the band um no I mean I think that I um probably saw people or listened or heard people um performing in a certain way that was difficult to distinguish between truth and not because they were just so talented um but I don’t know that you know I think there is a particular set of like hey um I I feel as though we we’re called to do this particular song uh for this particular service and we want to be sure that when we do this we are putting forth our best foot um in effort and practice uh I don’t know if it didn’t make me the ultimate judge of their truthfulness it just um but it you know it gave me um a way to discern myself which then I can I think I can observe in others in a certain sense so but but you did get admonished right so did the person who admonished you do you believe that that they did see the truth or lack of truth in your play um I would imagine that’s interesting did they see the lack of truth I don’t know that’s a good way to see it I I would say yeah they probably did um or at least they saw that it didn’t fit um the parameters that had been set forth uh by them or by scripture so you know I think I think that’s one way to see it I think I think what happens is when someone is convicted um born again and given new eyes to see and they see the law of God and the regulative principle set forth in scripture um you take it seriously uh whereas before it maybe it wasn’t taken seriously but and also like you know when you when if you if you believe that scripture is in church is ultimately required of you to understand it and I mean like not understand it and I mean like not understand it to a degree that you’re a an ex uh a philosopher or something that I’m not saying that what I’m saying is when your pursuit is that you become more familiar with it whether that’s through the teachings of others or actually reading and being convicted by its words or the admonition from others because they’re you know putting a position of authority in your life you take it seriously um differently than one who isn’t um maybe who isn’t a believer okay so um yeah is is that trajectory still unfolding or is that kind of the place where you’re at yeah I think it’s still unfolding I think that you’re that you’re constantly becoming more familiar convicted growing in your sanctification um and so in some ways it’s creates a sense of freedom in other ways it creates a sense of boundaries um that are uh healthy but difficult um you know I think that there’s a set there’s some some places where you could fall into a legalistic tendency of like these are very specific ways you must do things or can you understand that these are ways that you can do things that are good but the is it is it required that they look this particular specific way all the time for what purpose and I think what happens is when you realize the purposes of music or the purposes of this situation is to glorify God you have to pursue that in spirit and truth the perfection element is not something that you are ultimately concerned with you’re ultimately concerned with God so is that a something that propagated through your other aspects of music making as well or like is going to church distinct from you playing on your own yeah I think sometimes um I do I’ve thought about that a lot uh there’s some aspects that makes it easier to write music or perform it because you have a serious um wealth of knowledge to pull from from the church realm or from scripture and there’s other aspects where you are like uh you know I’m writing music here um you know it’s worldly or it’s it’s based in my own passions and desires that are you know of the world meaning like ultimately sin um but but it’s fun and so I think you tend to evaluate at least I tend to evaluate my music that I would write in under a different lens but I constantly have this kind of um battle as it were to you know music I consume listen to or enjoy um is it hostile to God meaning like is it specifically stating a number of things that are not um for instance like I’m a music guy more than a lyrics guy right so I can appreciate lots of music and instrumentation and virtuosity quality and quality musicianship and ignore lyrics um it’s a constant not a constant but it’s something that I concern myself with because I’m not convicted of like I don’t feel that the music that is has lyrics that are you know terrible lyrics that you wouldn’t think are are healthy for a Christian they don’t really seem to affect me in a way meaning like I’m not taking them as gospel truth or they’re not affecting my life or any particular way um because I but I but in some ways I kind of you know sometimes I feel as though maybe I should be more discerning with the input that I decide to to um you know participate in um because is that what God requires of me you know and so that’s a constant battle that I’ve struggled with because I love some of the musical aspects so much of lots of you know what I consider to be um you know ungodly music or secular music or whatever that might be so you know I think what’s happened as I’ve as I’ve grown in in my convictions and sanctification is that I’ve tried more and more to steer clear of things that are um potentially harmful but not just to me you know to others like if I’m listening to a particular type of music um and my children hear it and they’re not going to have the same heart our understanding or Christian liberty that I might have and so they’re going to ask well what these lyrics you know because you know maybe I’m not listening to the lyrics but they are and they’re going to say well this doesn’t square with what I what I’ve been told to believe and why you know and so I’ll have to either reevaluate that myself let them come up with it themselves or reorient them and I do think as parents we are called to reorient our children and the ways of God but you know I just want to be more discerning with that sort of thing that was a long answer is there also like music that that discussed you like is there like a sensibility like a moral sensibility that you’ve gained um it’s kind of similar to the last one um I think there are some lyrics in music that tend to make it very hard for me to digest them and without disgust lyrically because the content is so you know sometimes brutally ungodly or you know hostile to God but music wise as far as like instrumentation tonality I don’t have a disguise I actually enjoy so many different types if not all types I mean it’s hard to say all because I haven’t heard everything under the sun but I can find a particular aspect of almost any genre of music and enjoy it whether it’s its virtuosity its rhythm its play with tonality its um you know its juxtaposition with the you know beautiful and the ugly at the same time can I see that there um is it does it appeal to me and I’m really drawn to musicianship generally so that’s why it’s hard because some there could be horribly you know even you know occultist satanic or otherwise evil sounding music that I can appreciate because of its musicianship or its musicality and so I have to you know work on that sometimes because I think that if I were to consume that often um is that the best use of my time um you know I don’t know if it is so like it seems to me that that you you narrow in on on the aspect of participation as they like okay this is able to be lifted up or something and then you you quarter nice all these other things and say I’m not dealing with them and you feel pretty comfortable with doing that for yourself yeah I mean sort of like compartmentalizing you know I’m I’m able to do that um yeah I am I comfortable with that well do you think that that is something that God would want compared to compartmentalization I think I think it could be a serious shortcoming for some Christians yeah because you’re you’re basically stating like well you know let me put God in this particular region of my thought and not in this one um and I do think that that’s a it’s a it’s a serious um it’s a potentially moral failing or a or a failing of um obedience in some ways yeah so I’m fully you know fully in admission that that’s something that I have to either you know either some you know I need to submit that aspect to God and just state like I need to be much more diligent in my approach to what I believe is you know what my convictions in other words I shouldn’t harden my conscience against something because I like its feeling that it gives me and I should probably be and I have I think I have gotten a lot better in that regard um there still are a number of pieces of music that I love to listen to that maybe aren’t um edifying you know or building or good for my um walk with God but in other aspects I don’t find that they I’m not compartmentalizing because I don’t find that they’ve harmed my relationship with God or others in the church um and in fact they em emboldened or help hone my skills in music right which I use um with the church and the body so I find that to be um okay in my case but I would never I would never tell a person to ignore their convictions and compartmentalize them in fact I would tell them to listen to their convictions yeah so I I hear that you’re you’re justifying true redemption um which is is is that uh in accordance with Christian teaching justifying true redemption um justification comes in Christ alone so I’m not doing the justifying justifying there so the only justifying that I’m doing is stating that I understand that justification comes from Christ um so there was a aspect when we started when we started off by you’re talking about uh giving expressions to to things in yourself um and bringing them out so I assume that that trajectory ran parallel to you you’re singing in choir and stuff so how did how did that uh evolution go I’m not I guess it’s hard for me to follow the question the evolution of which aspect well yourself expression right like bringing your inside your feelings out like okay like is that is that a skill or is that oh I see that is experienced as a side effect um I think it’s gotten I mean I think initially you kind of get you know better at doing it um as you do it more and you’re also corrected you know I kind of see it like um uh you know someone who’s learning to walk you know or to run or to ride a bike or to you know they have a number of passions that they hold and they’re you know sort of like as a child grows into its mature self and control of its physical body more it can walk more you know firmly and strongly and straightly um and and then be very confident in that and then they can run and then now they’re running marathons and quarter miles in you know 10 seconds so um that’s I think what happens in that case is you you get molded by um by the spirit from being born again you get molded by the the your elders in your life and your authority in the body of believers and your brothers and sisters um that hold you close to them in in an effort to prosper you um and help correct uh your shortcomings um not that they can truly um atone for them or something or correct them ultimately but they can point you in a direction that is correct um for your you know for your christian walk so I think that’s gotten better in that regard so so did you intentionally share these personal creations then for feedback like is there a process that you go through yeah sure I mean I’ve it’s been less and less in recent years as you know as I have a family and work and life and I don’t create as often as I used to and then put it out there for people to listen to um or or critique or whatever but there’s been many times in the past where I’ve written songs for for church or for um some you know for a band I may have been in or for others to listen to and you know yeah I want you know I’ve heard a couple of different people critique even the lyrics or the the content and sort of give me a better position you know um around it a long time ago a friend of mine you know had heard a song that I’d written and he came to me and said hey I think this is great but you have some lyrics here that I think may not actually you may not have meant to say them this way because in other words you know some of the lyrics were a lyrics of um uh the specific lyrics were you know earning a prize you know and I wasn’t when he was correcting correcting me and say well you’re not earning a prize you’re being given a prize because of christ so that’s sort of theological correction and then there’s also just musical correction from people that say well you know hey okay uh you know you I can hear the recording here you went to the studio you did this work and I think you need to go back because there’s some problems there and what happens is as I’ve grown and it’s a maturity thing I think it’s a sanctification thing you take that feedback better um because you you would you see the intention it’s you know sometimes the intention is evil but even even what person who has evil intention can still shed light on something for you that um may make you correct an otherwise um you know erred output so can you give an example like where you’re not able to take feedback like what would prevent you from taking feedback well I think that there’s you know there’s preferential feedback that you could get that are just merely preferences people that have a particular preference in their musical tastes sometimes that feedback isn’t exactly um uh helpful it’s it’s helpful in a way that if you wanted to appeal to that person’s preferences but it’s not something you should adopt as your own preferences um and take their take their position and say well okay I should change all that I’m doing because they have a particular preference you know I don’t you can you have to be able to discern that though because I do think that especially as musicians it’s easy to take people’s preferences and then say well this is the way I should be doing things and now you’re changing your approach to fulfill the preferences of another and not you know writing and producing music that um is true from from your you know from your position now I’d say like the truth ultimately for for a christian truth from the true from from ultimate truth right uh from from scripture alone or from god’s position um you would want to portray those truths as as accurate as you can and judge them against the ultimate judge which is scripture through the discernment of your church um but you know there’s also like a particular flavor that you put on on things that you know is unique sometimes and you don’t need to take the feedback of this person’s preference and then change your preferences uh you know um per se so yeah so there’s in some sense the timeless and then there’s the in time right and that you’re you’re trying to draw out the timelessness into the music and then you’re shaping it into your image right as well as as hopefully god’s image and and so you’re talking about the discernment around whether there’s an actual misapprehension of truth uh or or that yeah you’re just shaping something in your idiosyncratic way um so is is i assume that’s also a sense that you’ve developed over time whether like that what what is coming from you and what’s not coming from you and and maybe that’s also uh where your ability to take criticism or at least deal or identify criticism uh comes from yeah i mean i think also what happens as as one grows in their in their faith especially you i think i think you learn to you learn to hate your sin more in other words you welcome you welcome the re the rebuke from your fellow brothers because you know that you know the covenant that you have the bond you have with the body of the church is is is a is one that’s two way and so um you’re you welcome that and it’s harder as i think in the in my youth it was harder to take that criticism and understand that it was good for me um i think there are some people that probably are better at that but that’s sort of that definitely seems to be a temperament of youth um that you know seems to arise that people it’s very hard to take critique um even if it’s or you know calling out of sin or those sorts of things because you you think that they’re stifling your um stifling your life in some way they’re giving you uh you know constraints constraints um but in reality i think that they’re actually freeing you from a bondage to uh a nature of of of individual sort of um loneliness in a way so you’re not you know alone with your creative uh endeavors you’re you have a body that you’re that you’re a part of yeah so right like you you are a part of a body uh in many things right and so um there’s there’s there’s a grounding outside of yourself there right and in some sense because it’s grounding outside of yourself the criticism isn’t personal either right like there’s a yeah it it doesn’t fall upon you as as your person right on your identity because like if you look at society nowadays right like people really feel attacked when when there’s criticism because they feel it’s about them right it’s not about an idea that they have no like they are the idea and so it falls together with with themselves and yeah creating that distance is is something that’s part of uh becoming mature but it’s also part of committing right to to a conviction if you don’t make that commitment then you never create that space um so yeah like do you do you feel like you we’ve reached that at present times or like is there maybe like which your children like that they influence the way uh that you do music yeah i mean i think that there’s there’s an aspect of which where you you have children and you like to share you might i like to share my love of music with my children um and i enjoy teaching them and it helps me refine my skills because i have to get better at teaching um so that’s been that’s been great again like i was saying earlier it helps me to be better discerning around my tastes or my my inputs because you know i’m i can’t i can’t continue to give my children a proper framing that i think is um correct and glorifying to god if myself i am consuming um godless or you know worldly pursuits in music so you know children are there as a mirror in a way but also as sort of a picture of what it’s like um to be uh accountable so you know i think that that is a that’s why i count i count all of my children as you know amazing blessings because i’m given that that gift from god to you know to raise them um and pursue music with them is so much fun um but also it’s it’s challenging too in a way because you i’m challenged in my beliefs my convictions my challenge in my preferences um and even my skills so i i think it’s easy it would be easy for people to run away from that challenge in some ways um because you know you could just throw your hands up and just be like hey uh you know rules for for the not for me you know i’m the dad i do what i want you know um and i think that that’s true in a sense but not ultimately um the best i i think if you’re looking at it honestly and i think in the way that the lord is pushing me to understand his relationship with me and mine with my children is that you know they are there to um to to be raised and in order to do that i have to submit myself as well to truly to what the calling is so you know that’s i think that’s the growth so so it seems like they allow you to draw upon a place that that you couldn’t draw on before um so yeah like like how do you how do you think about that like don’t you feel a little bit uh well i guess i guess frustrated that you can’t get there yourself that you need them to to prompt you to to make these corrections in your life i never thought about that um no i i actually no i’ve never felt that way um that you know that pressure that i couldn’t get it on my own in some way uh you know i think that um i think that’s kind of the sanctifying process of having children you know it’s sort of it’s uh i think that’s also why people are called to have children partly um there are some that are not i think that’s rare um ultimately but yeah raising children whether you know whether it’s your children or even let’s say it’s your brothers and sisters if you have many of them or your um cousins or aunts uncles nephews nieces when those younger people are put into your life and you have and you take seriously the responsibility of raising them you you really like i said you’re looking in the mirror a bit and you have you you become convicted of your own shortcomings um even more so so i actually embrace that because i you know i’m happy to be continually convicted of my um shortcomings i think that’s i think that’s good well yeah i i think that’s good as well um and and so yeah like i guess i guess i was pointing at the need um so there’s a dependence there right like there’s the the social constraints or something are are driving you beyond yourself i guess that that’s that’s what i’m uh pointing at um uh well you can be receptive to that or you can like you said you can wave wave your hand at it yeah um oh yeah like if you can see the beauty in it and you can you can wield that as as an actual spiritual engine i guess um yeah that is beautiful yeah it is beautiful so yeah so so i guess i want to point at the teaching a little bit still because i’ve i’ve been finding this pattern where yeah first you’re you don’t know anything right then you kind of uh know how to play music in this case right and then you you’re exploring the space and then when when you’re teaching you’re you’re getting this this other relationship right you now have to translate the thing that that is natural to you in a way that that other people can participate with which again provides this mirror to yourself so maybe you want to expand a little bit on that yeah um i think that uh you’re i’m finding that it’s challenging in a different way um there’s a there’s a challenge growing up with like uh you know teachers or bandmates or you know choir members or people like that that would challenge you um but there’s a difference there that is not in your children and the difference is you’re having you’re not you’re you’re aiming in many ways you’re aiming to please the teacher and you know and not understanding as much that it’s about you and your growth um you’re really just looking to please that person or check the box with children there the feedback that you get from them is different because really you’re molding their feedback as well so there could be sort of a feedback loop that occurs um if you’re not careful in your children but i think if you if you’re approaching it when you approach it that way you’re seeing yourself in your children as they critique you because you’ve also given them these these these values and teach you know and these sorts of um teachings that they’re using to to critique you so that grows you um in a way that’s not like other things um and so it also can improve i think your um skill set because you really hone in on you know the specifics and get better at fundamentals sometimes that you may have forgotten or taken for granted and you have to now you know i mean try to you know trying to teach my you know five-year-old or or nine-year-old how do you listen to a tone and match it like it’s hard for me to tell them this is how you breathe this say you put the air through your your lungs and throat and voice and vocal cords and sing this pitch i have to like really consider all of the aspects of that from a fundamental perspective to get that understanding portrayed across and sometimes it’s futile because i don’t have the language to to to portray it very well sometimes so some so you you give them the information you have but you also model it for them and so they’re getting both things they’re getting the the modeling and the information um and you have to be very deliberate about what you’re telling them because you want to be clear and that’s that’s a different that’s a different skill and that’s why teaching is so hard but i also think that it’s good for you to grow in that regard and it improves you as a musician in many ways yeah so it’s interesting that you you pointed out a at a distinction between teaching your children and teaching in general right where uh yeah like their parents film sounds like the images of you um and that that obviously changes the dynamic um with feedback because you also are in multiple roles towards them right you’re not only their teacher you’re their caregiver and you’re their playmate um which if if you’d be an external individual you wouldn’t have to deal with um and i i guess that gives you tools but it also presents a bunch of handicaps at the same time yep well i think that’s part of the beauty of it is those those guard rails that come with that they mean the handicaps as it were are not shackles to hurt you but to refine you now i also think that’s what god does with his convicting spirit holy spirit it’s not to confine you to a particular mold that that you don’t want it’s to mold you to what you were created to be okay so if we take this towards the future well you now have three aspects right like one is effectively in church in worship and then you have your personal expression and then you have your relationship with your children so if you have five perfect years where you can do everything you want and like all goes well how do you see yourself like what are you doing in five years how do you see yourself like what are you doing in five years um i think it’s more it’s it honestly it’s more of the same and i’m for five i’m looking for consistency over five years not progress per se um so i’m looking for um a consistent relationship with my with my church and my family that that grows together my children i think in five years would be you know we would be creating music together i think um at that point we would be performing uh together um maybe um even writing especially my older children together and they would experience that that skill i think which is a useful skill of taking what they what they read or what they feel or what they’ve been told or what they hear and putting it into practice let you know let’s create um and even if that creation isn’t original it’s the process of doing it that gives them you know i think motivation going forward and a and a skill that they’ll love and hopefully cherish and pass on um to their children but also you know help them grow in other aspects of their life you know um so that in five years i hope that you know i pray that i continue that that direction and i also pray that it inspires other families to continue the pursuit of music as a as a skill in their lives and not merely a pastime but a um a useful tool in worship um and in uh in practical life you know uh i think that i think that the pursuit of music can be wonderfully joyful i think it can be a lot of fun it can be a bonding that is um unlike others um you know similar to dancing in some ways um it’s intimate it’s you know it’s original in some ways but it’s also derived and you’re striking at you know um you’re striking at an objective beauty and you’re looking to put that into the into your into your world into your life and you know the basically like how can i manifest the objective beauty that god has set forth through through through music um and i think that that’s you know hopefully i am seeing that happen in my family in the next five years even more so so a different way of saying that is that you you seem to think that you’ve figured out what you’re supposed to be doing uh and and so you so you don’t have have a a growth left that you need to make like is that a good summary well i was just morally speaking like i don’t i don’t have a goal of like writing another album or doing a show or doing a um some particular musical endeavor my my role is to continue in teaching um and leading my family children in my church you know not i don’t i don’t have a goal let’s take the church for example right like uh would you aspire to make changes to what they’re doing or or are you more like satin or like what what is happening is correct um i’m just gonna better participate in what’s happening and what’s happening um no i think that we’re continually improving one another’s skills devotion relationship with one another growing closer as a family of body believers so i’m not um complacent in that i think i figured it out uh or achieved it or something like that but i’m stating that um i would like to see you know consistent um pattern of building relationships and consistent consistent pattern of you know devotion to um god and the church um that way so all right is is the is the implication that the forming of the bond is in itself going to bring the innovation if there’s innovation needed yeah i think so i think growing and sanctification together will and it will bring forth more truths and we can implement them um easier if we’re unified so so that that that is interesting so um is is there a sharing of these truths like is is there a process that that you guys deal with it it’s like oh i figured this out and like how can we incorporate that for example i think just consistent gathering together reading the word prayers songs um you know worshiping together creating a strong as you know i think as as you have a growth in your spiritual life and sanctification you grow together as the body becomes one so you start to see that you know that happen more into the process is is consistent consistent prayer consistent gathering you know consistent sharing um and steady steady worship so so when when you’re saying the body coming becoming one is is that like you you gain a shared vision um yeah i think you know yeah the people become more christ-like everyone be you know as you grow in sanctification you become more oriented to oriented to christ yeah but i’m i’m i’m looking at at uh the ability to relate to i guess new information right so um i think i mean it gives you more resolve more ability to navigate life’s difficulties in the proper orientation and not get thrown by the wayside with the winds of the day you know you’re very you’re firmly grounded together yeah like i i i want to point out at the togetherness right like so what what does it mean to be grounded together i guess like like how how how do yeah how does that manifest oh like practically speaking i think um i think you see more people um engaging on a regular basis with one another in relationships so you know coming to you know coming to church consistently calling one another praying for one another asking for one another asking for one another to help them bear their burdens assisting one another um you know uh fighting the battles of the day um with with each other in you know consistently um you know discussing the matters of the day in in a in a biblical way in a christian way and not a not a mere pragmatic way per se you’re you’re constantly being reformed um to christ and so your your level of thought and engagement um gets more uh unified on that front yep and and so when like like when there’s something happening something coming in as a group right and like how do you how how does that allow a bonded group deal with something that a non-bonded group can’t deal with it like like where’s the strength of the bomb yeah i think i think when there when you know when someone when you are alone or in lower numbers or difficulty arises i think it’s easy to um hole up in you know be a loner or you know even get sucked into the ways of the world meaning you know you start to really get um stooped in you know sin or self-doubt um you know lack of assurance lack of um steadfast prayer because you feel as though you know your your fruit is brought in or you feel as though there’s there is no fruit because there’s no one bearing it with you and in building you up together you know and helping you to understand that there is you know showing them the grace that you are also afforded and so that that bond and that unity in the group is ultimately um not something you experience on your own yeah so um i’m gonna try a little bit again but uh so if if a viewer hasn’t experienced that for themselves uh what would you tell them hasn’t experienced like the the body or the group right um i would i would tell them i would tell them to in in the same way that um the pursuit of music tends to be uh difficult and a growing process that you know comes with time and understanding you know and tell them to continue that pursuit of of of unity with a group i would also tell them to evaluate themselves when they look at the group and say see see if they are looking for reasons not to be a part of some particular group and maybe some of those reasons are selfish or some of those reasons are not giving um enough uh enough grace and understanding to yourself and to the group that you would want them to give to you um and so i think there’s that i think also there’s you know you have to you have to do something to be you have to try to walk and be a part of a group gathering in order to to be there now there are some some cases where someone has just pulled in um to the group and by some i don’t know some miraculous method but you have to put um one foot uh in you know sort of in the pool in order to get the whole body in the pool so you got to try um a little bit uh also i think it’s you know it’s you have to be okay with um with some hard conversations and difficult pushback that may be uncomfortable because it’s also uncomfortable for others too but that um that uncomfortable feeling is shared so you’re not alone in your feelings of despair depravity or difficulties um everyone has uh these these sorts of failings and so uh you know i think that that once you once you start to understand that these people are not looking to um looking to fight you as much as they’re looking to um um bring you into the you know the pleasant meal that they’re having um you know that that’s what i would say um there’s more practical approaches i think depending on the situation the circumstances but um you know in the in in the case of like using music as an example um if you’re listening to music someone enjoys music uh you you can appreciate that that was done by a group of people in most cases whether it’s producer and engineer or entire choir or you know look at what you’re experiencing um and enjoying that group or that body of people that put that together work together to do so and so you can be a part of that same you know experience when you are a part of the body and like you said right like you develop a new means to see yourself as a consequence of going through the process right um yeah so no no ways to make like this one song that you’ve been postponing forever or like it’s nothing like that yeah i mean not really i will say that that’s really become i don’t have the fire like i once did when i was younger to create new music uh i don’t know why that is it’s hard to i don’t know if it’s a lack of time or inspiration or something i it’s not been on the front of my to-do lists for a long time i enjoy writing music i really enjoy sitting in like jam sessions or improvising and things like that but i don’t have this like creative desire to create new pieces of music like i once did um i’m not really sure why i think it’s because i just have other other meaning that i’m pursuing which is like you know like i said family group church you know building that up and so i i think my desires for creation of music has been reoriented okay sounds like we’ve come to the end um is there a lesson that that you’ve drawn from this conversation or realization that you’ve made um but i think that uh i’ve come to realize like there you know i think you challenged me a bit on um compartmentalization um bringing light to the fact that there may be things that i indulge in musically that are not uh probably not ideal um and i should probably get even more serious about killing that aspect of sin or compartmentalization um and pursuing pursuing the you know the good even more which is which is god okay well um i’d invite everybody uh to leave their own insights or lessons in the comment section so that bruce can enjoy that as a feedback and criticism and um it is the internet so do you want to have a closing statement bruce um yeah i mean uh you know i would say um my closing statement would be uh go to church enjoy music um for what it is uh but also um you know anyone and everyone that’s involved uh in watching or listening to this you know if you haven’t i would strongly uh encourage people to pursue the uh the creative arts of music um in some way uh whether that’s in the corporate worship or in creation of your own or learning an instrument or learning to sing or you know enjoying sing um enjoying music um for more than just a pastime activity but unintentional um worshipful act okay um well thank you for being a nice guest i hope everybody enjoyed it um i see you guys on the next episode of unfolding the soul thanks you