https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=qGl2b0og4fE
Hello everyone, I’m back again with my second episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today’s cast is Michel. He’s been my buddy from my early days on the discord in this corner of the internet. He’s always been a source of light, joy, energy. He kind of stuck by my side through my journey from the big days of depression to where I’m at now. His subject is going to be… I guess fatherhood. Fatherhood. So this is a thing that he introduced to me way back in the day when we started. I’ve been so grateful to be able to partake in his journey and in his development. So I got some first-hand, well I guess second-hand experience of what he’s been going through. So yeah, let’s get us going from the start. When did fatherhood become something that was relevant in your life? So my father wasn’t there when I was little, when I was a kid. But there were amazing stories told about him through my mom. So his presence was always there. And I missed him. And I wanted to understand what it meant to have a father who was there for you. And this was before I was influenced through other means. I was more influenced through the people around me. Because I am not originally from America. But where I’m from, which is the Dominican Republic, we didn’t have a TV or radio. I mean there were radios, but the radios were from other people. So the exposure I got were more from the people that spoke about him. And there were these very vivid, or you could say very, there was a strong desire to meet him and find out how he is or what that meant to be picked up by him or what was he doing. So you got an image in your head, and I sense it’s largely connected to the needs that you’re having, right? Like the lack that was had in your life. Did you have a sense of his person or what he would mean for you? Well, since my childhood was pretty chaotic and crazy. It was extremely unstable. My mother was always, when she drank, it didn’t, it wasn’t, there was a lot of stuff that we were experiencing with my mother that as much as we cared about her, hearing about my father made that possibility or trying to meet my father made something like, here we are, this is worse, but when I meet my father, things will be better. Yes, he was representative of a sort of an escape of your circumstance. Yes, or not just an escape, but things will be better. Right, so there’s also a promise in the future. So were you in contact with him? Was he still as a satellite there? To be honest with you, I really don’t remember. I don’t remember, but maybe we did, because we didn’t have a phone, we didn’t have electricity. Maybe you can say where you were living, like how it was like to live there. It, in living in, it was, it felt normal to us. Because we don’t know what it is to have a electricity. Even if you have a switch or you have a electricity, you still have to kind of integrate with it. Like you have to, like why do you need to turn on the light? Like why do I have to turn on the light? We had candles and we all blew off the candle. We did know that electricity was important because there were certain shows and we had certain neighbors who had electricity and they invited us over to watch certain things when we could. And this was when we were living with my grandmother. I remember a lot when I was living with my grandmother before my parents decided to, or not decided, but something happened between them and things. Things got to where they were, where my brother and I, we lived with my grandmother and my sister lived with my father’s aunt. And then my father came to the US to make us a better life. And in that happening, it also broke many things that we grew up with. Because my mother said that we used to live in a home and we used to have all the things that kids used to have, but then we got, something happened and we were not there anymore. So my mom had to make a decision. Yeah, and your dad wasn’t there to fix it. Correct. So you were in an impoverished situation. So, you were living in a village, right? Yeah, we were living in the village. We were living in different, different places. But we were in a village and we were in a village culture as well, right? Right, right. Yeah. But we were also living in, you could say, we were living also in a regular town, a town place as well. And those places didn’t have, some of the places we were living in, they still didn’t have a electricity either. So, I get the distinct sense of domicile, where you were kind of lost, right? Like you didn’t really settle in somewhere and then there was this promise or this expectation of your dad, right? That was in the future. So that ended up happening, right? Well, the greatest, I still remember it, when we came to the US and he came to pick us up. I think I was, I think, I don’t know, I think I was like nine or seven. We fell asleep at the airport and he picked us up in the summer because I believe during that time, yeah, so during August, July and August, that’s when we had, that’s when we were off and then my father had time to be with us. So finally, once he was able to get us here, he got us here during the summer for, during those times, for a month or three weeks or something like that. So I remember when he picked me up, when I remember waking up to his arms and looking at him, I’m like, whoa. And he had that little mustache thing going with the, with the long hair, beetles kind of thing going on. So you had this picture in your head, right? Not only of how he looks like, but like what he would mean to you. And, and now it actually happened, right? Like it became reality. So how was that? It was, it was really a dream come true. Or, or yeah, it was, it was really wonderful to finally get to meet my father and we loved it. We really, really enjoyed the summers with my father because it was hard going back. Like we had everything when we came here and he was able to take care of us. And we were able to be provided for. He lived in a, in a little apartment, but it felt like heaven. It was, it was paradise. It was all the good things that, that, that we were, or that, that I, you know, that I was expecting, even though I missed my mother, it was way better what we were experiencing here. When we came to see him. So he was actually able to live up to your expectations. That must have been amazing. For the summer. Yeah. I mean, we’re not seeing him. We’re not staying with him. That’s a whole different story. Once, once it was decided, because we, we, something that we didn’t know is that when we came, we all, we went to the doctor and they were checking on us. And then they found out that we were malnutrition. I’m like, what the heck are you talking about? And they found worms in our stomach. And it was, it was a lot of stuff that happened during those months. And I think the second year, or I don’t know if it was the first year, that’s when they got us to the doctor to get us to get me diagnosed due to my respiratory illness that I had them that my mom had to really struggle with. And that’s when I, when we discovered that, that I had asthma and he helped with that. And the people that, so it was heaven. Like it was, and we were living, we were living it up. We were one of the first people in town or in the village that had an Atari, even though we didn’t have electricity to plug it in, but we had an Atari. Eventually electricity came. So that’s really interesting. And yeah, it must have been some tension between your father and your mother, right? Like in your allegiance to them, right? Because like it’s, like you said, it’s heaven, right? Like it wasn’t fair competition between them. Yeah, right. But for some reason I always, me personally, I’ve always missed my mom. Like for some reason, even though it was better, it was not better in the way that my mom made it better. So, so yeah, we’re talking about being a father, right? So let’s go there. Like, like, did you have a sense of being a father or was that like totally not on your mind? I got the image. I saw with my father, the things that he did, but he, even though we kind of came from a very broken family with different siblings from different relationships, he was there. He was always there. And he was someone that everyone admired in Dominican Republic because he participated in singing competitions, right? So there was this thing that he already had, like that people looked up to him, right? And he did help a lot of people. So I thought that everything that he was doing was part of like, okay, that’s what I need to do. And, or at least I was figuring it out. Like, okay, that’s what I need to do. But, but eventually it all in, in, in once, once it was decided that we have to stay, my mother had to make that decision. It was really hard for her to make that decision because we were becoming, we were becoming delinquents. So my father said, well, send them over and, and, and they’ll stay with us. Then once we stayed, things weren’t, weren’t heavenly anymore because my, my father was very temperamental and he did have, he was, he was a casual alcoholic as well. And he did suffer from a lot of, I guess, he, he, there were, there were issues that he didn’t, that he, as much as he was trying to help us, the disappointment when we disappointed him were not, didn’t, didn’t really go very well. And that was different. I never experienced that with my mom. And so, and when, whenever we disappointed our mom, it was different than when we, when we, when we disappointed our, our father. So, I get the sense that when, when you were on vacation, it was all, all happy and like he didn’t have the commitment. So he could, he could act freely, right? He didn’t have the same responsibility. And then when that changed, right? Like when, when he actually had to care for you. That, that’s, that’s the point where, where you saw his, his darker side. Right. And so, so how did that affect your, your image of being a dad? Well, I’m in America, so I got heavily influenced by a lot of American stuff. But I didn’t want that. I didn’t want, I didn’t want, like, I didn’t want the, the side where my father, when he became disappointed, he, he became a whole different person. I didn’t, I didn’t want that. And I looked at other, other people, other celebrities, because now I have access to the TV. So now celebrities became the, the, what is, what is it that my father is missing that I’m, that I, that I want to be able to. Yes, so you were trying to resolve a problem. Yeah. And how how did that form your later days? Like, is this a thing that kept you busy all the time? Or is that, that’s something that, that more occurred? Well, we, we, we, out of the three of us, or the four of us, I didn’t want to disappoint him. So, so that, that was really tough. But, but again, like, you know, I found other, other male role models that, that, that were part of the, the culture that I was trying to see if maybe, maybe that’s what it means to be a father, since my father wasn’t there. You know, and, and that, that, that still was not, was not was still not enough. So I learned how to work from, from my father and from my biological father. And, and I, and I learned how to love my job from my biological father and I learned how to care for others from my, from my mother. But then I still didn’t know what does it, what is that role of a father. So, so, firstly, he wasn’t there, literally, right. And then, when he was there physically. He wasn’t there in an emotional way. Do you, do you connect these two things like do you think they’re similar or does that feel like a totally different thing? Yes. Yeah, the ability to be able to, the ability to be able to integrate both to, to, to be this father and to understand the emotional part was not really something that he, he was able to do the way my mother used to do, because it was, it’s hard to say which place was worse, but I will still prefer my mother over my father. Because even, because even if we experience really horrible things with my mom, as you could, like I said earlier, we were malnutrition. It was, it was just bad but my, my mother. She, she stayed up at night. When I, when I, when I was sick with asthma. My father never did that. He was there for many days, for hours, just trying to calm, calm my, my, my nerves or just praying over me or, or trying to keep me relaxed for because of my asthma attack and we didn’t have any medicine, she was there. She was drinking and drunk. But she was still able to, to, to care for, for, for those moments that, that I felt like I was going to die. Yeah. That’s, that’s really intense. This, this care aspect, like that, that’s obviously something you really, really value so I assume that that’s, that’s something you wanted to take in to being a father. Well, I did, but I didn’t want to do it like my mom did too because my mom did it too, too much to some degree, because she, she, she cared enough about my, my, my physical being, and, and you can say that that was helpful because it was able to transfer to my emotional But when it came to relationships, it was a whole different, different thing because my mom pretty much, she was more of a do whatever feels right. So, so, so I get this sense that that you, you got this, these, these things right like the way I see it is, you’re not really sure, right, but you get these deep feelings right like these, these, these deep feelings about, oh, this is right, this is not right like I need to resolve this. And so you’re growing up. Like, is there some something like another significant event or something or is it, is it you just trying to use culture to, to look for the thing that you’re missing. Yeah, yeah, pretty much the culture was the thing that I used to try to figure out what what does it mean to be a father. So what did you learn from culture that I could do anything. From the culture I learned that if I work, which is kind of like what my father said that if I work hard, and I, and I, and I provide a means for my, for my family to be able to survive home, food, money, that that’s what it meant to be a father. But I knew, somehow I knew that that wasn’t enough. I knew that there was something missing. Because then, then, then when I, when I, when I did get to that point, then I, it didn’t feel right, like there was something else that that was not correct because then I was becoming very resentful towards, towards my kids. And then, then I started using a lot of the lines that my father used to use which is, this is my home. I work all these hours. I stayed over here. And, and even though I knew deep down inside that there was something wrong with that I still said it. So, so we’ve now arrived to the point that you got a kid. Yeah, yeah. Two step kids. Yeah. So you married into, into a family. And then you’re trying to grasp at something and you’re grasping back to, to what you know, right, like what, what your father did. And you have this, this discomfort around it’s like no, that’s not right. Like there’s more. Yeah. So yeah, like, like, how did you, how did you look at yourself, like did you look at yourself as a father at that point. No, no, I was just, I mean, if I was following the culture then yeah, but I knew there was something else missing. But I didn’t, I didn’t really understand it. I didn’t know what the, what my role was besides just working and telling them what to do, or, or, or not even engaging with the mistakes that they make. So I guess we want to visit the iconic moment where your child got born. Like, like, was, was that was that special? Like, like, how did you experience that? I mean, I experienced it through my, through my wife, but for me it was not as special as, as I thought it would have been because by that time I was too already, because I was too, I was, I was already living in a very, in a, in a dull kind of place. And I was not really trying to understand or not even trying to understand but by that time I got beat up so much that I just, you know, I became dull and it didn’t, it didn’t sink to me or it was, you know, another kid. Yes, there was a sense of apathy as well. Yeah, and then you can say that it probably that came from my father because we there’s, I have siblings not directly related to my biological mom. So, but he took care of us, right. And, and he took care of us because of money. So that that’s pretty much how I saw it. Okay. And responsibility as well. Yeah. So, yeah, like, like, do you feel like we need to describe that more. I mean I married my wife because I was trying to be the father to her kids that that I, that I, I believe I was missing when I was a child, and I never got. I was trying to figure that out. But in, in my experience I didn’t, I didn’t, it didn’t feel reachable. So I didn’t really engage to the degree that that I, that I am now. So I was, I was passive in some decisions, but I was extremely dismissive of everyone’s agency. So I felt it was replaced with my work. And me being here. Like I’m here. At least I’m here. Well, yeah, well, you stuck to it. So, so that that’s great. So I feel like I mean I mean that’s how I used to think. Okay, I. Yes, so I get a sense right like that, that you had this aspiration. As part of your marrying, where you’re like, oh, I’m going to provide this. And then when, when you actually got there, right, and you had to live it out. You, you felt lost, like you didn’t know how to do the thing that you had in your head. Right. Yes. I have no, I didn’t even know how. I really didn’t, didn’t understand what to do, especially now that I’m a stepdad of two beautiful kids. It was, it was. It did. I just didn’t have access to that. It was just, okay, we’re married. This is the way it’s going to be. I guess that’s what, you know, that’s just what it is. But my, my engagement with them was very distant and dismissive. And even even with with my wife. That changed. So, so what happened. Well, after being married and seeing or experiencing something I didn’t experience before, through my wife. I, I started to, I started to get glimpse of the way that I can be that father through, through my wife. And we, we, we, I think, like six or seventh year. I mean, we were having issues, but, but that, that I was willing to just do what everybody else does and say, Okay, you know, if we want to get a divorce, we could get a divorce but but she never waiver. She, she, she never doubted. And every morning she did the same thing. And I was very dismissive for that. And eventually, I wanted to understand what was it that she was seeing in our relationship. And that’s when when she showed me God. So, so she, she dragged you. Well, that’s maybe the wrong word but she enabled you to find a new way to see yourself with new eyes. And that happened to God. So you found God in your life. And, and that that’s the start of, of a transformation that you had to go through. Yes. And, and then I started wanting I wanted to know more. And I made, I made mistakes but her, her commitment to my or to our marriage. She really meant it. And I’ve never met anyone like that. I feel like you, you really sincerely want to return that favor. Through being a good dad, being a good husband. Yep, yep. And, and she, because of her, her faith, I was able to find someone I could, I could aspire to be through, through St. Joseph. So, so, through the faith, you find St. Joseph and he, he became this this special point of reference for you. Because, because he allowed you to, to look at yourself in a certain way, he provided an ideal that you could live, live into. So, so what was, yeah, what was Joseph representing for you. He represented this, this person who wanted the good for the Son of God. He, he wanted, even though it was hard for him. He, he was called upon God to commit himself to taking care of Jesus. And that’s what you also wanted. You wanted to make that commitment. You wanted to find a way to, to care. Yes. I wanted to find a way to be a father that I, I, that was not dismissive of people’s agency. Especially my own. And then the aspect that Joseph is not the father of Jesus, right, because he’s a stepfather, right. So there was this extra element that you could identify with. Yes, yeah, definitely. So yeah, like, so now you’ve got this ideal. You have, you have this promise of, of, of finding a solution. So, so how did that transformation go, like, like, what changed. Well, I started going to church to try to understand. What is it that, that, that my, my wife was seeing this, she, she was. She believed in the marriage, according to the church and I wanted to understand that. So, as I was trying to figure out what, what, what, what was it that this, this, this desire that I had to be this father. I started going to different churches and reading and looking at different YouTube videos and trying to find the, the Joseph character that that that it took a while. But, but it, it, it was, I was able to get to a point of, of also seeing the relationship that Mary had with Joseph. And, and that was very important for, for me to be able to understand how to, to, to say yes to, to the moments that I, that I’m currently in. And be able to continue on, on to continue on. And, and exploring my, my relationship to myself, my relationship with, with, with my, with my kids and, and my, my relationship with, with my wife and. It sounds to me that you found new ways of appreciating what, what you were part of what was happening. Yeah, I wanted to find, I wanted, I wanted to find a way to, like you said, give back what my wife gave to me and be grateful for it. I wanted, I wanted to be grateful and, and not let that go. So, so the gratitude is, is, is the thing that, that allowed you to, to find the strength for, for all the other things that you had to change? Yes. So, so you’re being a dad, you’re having step kids, you’re going to church, you’re recognizing what, what you already recognize the value of your wife, but you’re, you’re, you’re recognizing new parts of, of, of the way that she’s, she’s valuable and the way that she’s there for you. So where does that lead? Is there a moment where, where things change? Of course. My, my, my kids are not mine. And my time here is limited. So, it leads. Where I can feel that all the past experiences that my, my, that I went through, my wife, my father and my mother, now have been We’re not, we’re not, everything that, that they experience and I experience has an eternal purpose that I can be grateful for. So that’s, that’s the place you found gratitude in, in, in the purpose. Yes. And then, so you’re doing, you’re doing all of this exploration to church. You’re also looking at YouTube videos at a certain point, like, like, is, are there any significant events that we should visit? The most important event was meeting you, of course, because you helped me find a way to articulate and say the things that were in inside of me in a, in a, in a manner that I can be understood. And when I found out that the internet or what was happening through my life, like this idea of discernment is has been one of the most, or right now is the most important thing for me. The ability to be able to speak with people who care about the well-being of others and, and understand that the answers are not really linear, but they’re complex. And you were able to help me with that. So that, that, that is probably the most important moment as I was trying to figure out the way that I can communicate with my, with, with myself, with my family and with others. So, so I get, I get a sense that, that the time before was, was more related to, to you, how you were affected emotionally and, and, and how, how, how you could experience things differently. And, and then when you got on the Discord and met me and started talking with people around these issues, you, you started moving to a space where, where the articulation was, was giving you tools, new tools to look at yourself, but, but also to include other people in the process. Right. Yes. So, so, yeah, like, out of, out of, out of that experience, out of the many people that I talked to, you’re the only one who wanted to really see the people grow, while other people were, were not really into that. They were doing something else. So, so this, this idea of growth, is this something that, that you were familiar with before you met me? No, no, no. There were a lot of ideas that, that I didn’t have, or articulation to that I wanted to be able to have in order to, to, to show how much I am grateful to the people around me. So, I remember in the early days you got really charmed by this idea of the divine feminine. So, so we have a way of putting that in relationship to being a dad. When I, when I, when I was speaking earlier, how I see the divine feminine saying yes to God. And then, how Joseph said, yes to God. That’s how I see the divine feminine. We, we are, we, we, we have moments in our, in our lives that, that they may, they may be hard. But if one can find the gratitude, or the blessings or, or the good in those moments of hardship, things can get better. And I also feel like you, you recognize the importance of the divine feminine to your wife and what she did for you. Yes. So yeah, you pushed that really hard when, when we were talking and you were right, like that was really important to explore that. So I’m really grateful for that. So yeah, so now you’re in this different space. You’re starting to understand things, you’re starting to get language to explain to yourself and others. And so, so like, what, what does that change for you? How does that change for you? I’m able to, again, going back to the divine feminine and understanding, I’m now able to be more receptive and be able to participate not based on my will, but on the will of good. And that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for the will of the good. How can I participate in a way that I can show the light in, in, in everyone around me? And I fall short, a lot of times. And, and as long as someone that it’s there to, or something is there to make sure or you, or you have people who can hold you accountable to your mistakes that you can grow. It’s okay. Right. I get a sense of trust, right? Like you found some sense of safety or comfort in this idea of growth and the making mistakes and, and, and, and I might be projecting, but I got, I get a sense, right? Like you want to promote the good and, and by, by knowing this idea of growth, right? Like that everything is in service to growth. Like it, it allowed, it allowed you to disconnect a little bit and let go a little bit and, and embrace potential, which is also a big subject in our, in our talking. And I know that that’s kind of what I was looking for. You know, the potential in people can, can, can we see the potential of what people can really be and how they can be. And that, that all of that I learned through, through my wife. Do you have maybe a practical example of how these new insights made a change in how you, you are a father? So we, we found out maybe a couple of years ago that my, my younger son, he’s really musically inclined and he’s able to type really, really, really fast. And I was able to have a conversation with, with, with you and other people, with you, Mark and other people. And, and I, and I, and I was able to understand that, that him being able to do that is not the, the, the goal. It’s, it’s, it’s something, and I knew that that’s the reason why I came. Like that’s the reason why I share that. Because I knew that just because he types really fast doesn’t mean that that defines him. I want my son to have his own agency, which has been the most important thing that I’ve discovered in all of our conversations. And with that understanding, I was able to modify my, my guidance and not be, not, not, not, not treat him in, in a, in a value sense. Not, not, not look at him as this person who was able to type really fast, but continue to look at him as someone who is the son of God and, and to wish him or to do things in the name of the good, the good for him, not, not the good for me. And so that, that’s a, that was probably the biggest example. And then other examples is that when I stayed when we had the pandemic, and we all had to work from home, I did what my wife did to me. And through speaking through you guys and understanding the participation is important. I did what my wife did to me with my family and I cooked every day. And by cooking every day I was able to relate with my stuff kits. Much, much better and I enjoyed it. Enjoy I enjoyed. Knowing that this is what I’m doing. I did, I, of course there’s there’s sometimes it’s hard because you want to, you want that reciprocal feedback, but that’s not, that’s not the reason why you’re doing it. Right. You’re doing it for the good because this is the right thing to do. And that’s hard. I don’t know. It seems that’s hard for people to understand like, why is it good for you for me to cook dinner, you know, and, and pray. And it took time. But now, now my son listens to me, which I really appreciate and I’m grateful. Much better. I’m able to have much deeper conversation. And, and he’s able to understand that I’m not interested in. I’m not, I’m not interested in lowering his agency or anything like that. So, because there’s there’s there’s what I say but there’s what I do. And what I’ve learned is that doing those things have have created a much stronger relationship between us. intimacy. That’s, that’s the next thing we’re all about online. Yeah, and I have to take it and it’s hard because it’s hard to do that. Like it’s hard. Because when when when I’m doing it, I don’t want to do it. You know, I don’t want to do it because again, there’s the reciprocal part of me like no, I’m doing it now you should do this. And sometimes I fail. And then, and then I have to take responsibility for that failure. And that has been probably the most, most important thing that I that I understood about this whole divine feminine. Yes, you, you should take responsibility for the failures of falling short, but it doesn’t mean that you, you, you’re, you’re not going to get better. Because within that failure. If you look at what you did, you can. There’s, there’s something magical that happened there’s a blessing happening there. And you may not be able to see it, which is sometimes why, you know, have have conversation with other people. Yeah, and I, well, it’s, it’s also why we’re having this conversation, right, because you’re saying, like, people have a hard time understanding and I hope that by by showing your journey and getting getting your experience of this and the transformation within you. In the spotlight, it allows people to see what the values of these things, these ways of thinking, these ways of participation right like looking, looking for the growth and looking for the good. And looking for the good and that yeah your actions aren’t always going to be appreciated by the people around you. But that’s okay. Right, because, because maybe they will in in 15 years. And then they will, you know, that’s the. And, and if you’re doing it, eventually maybe you might be doing it out of bitterness, but it’s better to do it anyway. Just keep your mouth shut. That that’s what I’ve learned. Because that bitterness, you can pray on and reflect on and and find out why are you bitter about that. And it could be another form of transformation, which, which, with that intimate meditative practice of you thinking about that matter of bitterness. There’s the divine feminine in there, because eventually it will lead to a yes. If you want to look for it. Right. So, yeah, like so it seems like, like you’ve, you’ve transformed your home right like what it is to be part of your household. But it also seems that you’ve gone through a transformation yourself right like how you see the world. And I think you’ve mentioned attention, right. You mentioned growth, so there’s all of these new ways of looking at things. So how does that change being you, right, like how does that change your experience of life. Well, it gives me, it shows me much more potentiality than I used to think. When, when I used to be more of a following what the culture was telling me. Because now with with with with the attention. When I look at something that may be bad I’m not looking at something bad. I’m looking for the good. And with the growth, I’m looking to transform it and glorify it. And that’s relating to agency right like those two things empower you in some sense, or at least empower you against evil right or the negativity in the world. Well, in that in that is true. I’ve had people that they are scared of me because of this way of thinking. And I didn’t, it isn’t, I’m not. All I’m doing is showing the good. But for some reason that’s not. They find it. Did they find me showing the good. Too much or something. Yeah, like, it can be scary right because, like, when there’s light, light cast a shadow. And if you’re in that shadow, like, maybe, maybe you don’t like the light is not blinding you and it’s, it’s pointing out where you’re failing, even though you might not consciously registered that. So, it sounds to me that you’ve, you’ve kind of redeemed yourself in a really profound way. And that you actually are at the place where you’re being the father that that you think you should be or, or at least that you’re getting there. I’m getting there. Definitely getting working. Oh yeah, we’re always on a journey. Sometimes we’re never there. But yeah, like that that is really, really powerful. Right. Like, so, so, in some sense you’ve, you’ve overcome. Well, you’ve overcome many things in life but but you you’ve overcome this, this box that that you, you got put in as a consequence of, of, of how you were raised right and the values that you got inherited. And you were able to step out of it and embrace something way bigger, right, like true God, you found this, this way where you do have the sense that you’re doing the right thing within your capabilities. And, and yeah, so that’s a really powerful story. So, I think, I think we’re kind of getting at the present. Right. So, so now you’re, you’re, you’re looking at the future of your kid. You’re looking at your own future. The older kids are already out of house. So, so yeah, like, where do you see being a dad going like, is there aspects where where you’re like, oh, I’m still missing here. I haven’t explored this yet. Or, how do you look at it. I would like to be there for my kids. I would like to be a granddad and be the type of granddad that that that can afford them more growth. Yeah, that’s powerful. So, so, so it’s in some sense I see granddad as like the transcendence of dad. And so, so, so how do you see the distinction between what’s required of you being a dad and what’s required of you being a granddad. I get the sense that I see my, my, my participation not as It’s not, not so direct, like not not in, not, not in in this constant I see it not as fast paced but more slow paced and and and more understanding of what my kids will like me to help them with. Because right now I am a dad but I’m the things that I’m doing are really very direct and I’m constantly transgressing. I see a lot less transgression as a granddad than, than as a dad, because of the, the unnecessary part of transgressing on on on the kids and constantly having to remind them of things, but be more of a receptive beacon for them or something like that. Yeah, so I didn’t realize that as granddad, you have two relationships, you have a relationship to your kids, but you also have a relationship to your grandkids. And my mind slipped to your relationship to the grandkids. But, yeah, obviously, as a granddad, you, you get out of the picture, right, like in some sense, you’re not part of the family in the daily aspect. But, but, but you’re more in an in an advisory role. Yes. So what comes up for me is wisdom, right, like that’s what an advisor is supposed to have. And then there’s also the, the aspect of your relationship with your grandchild. So, yeah, maybe that gives you a way to think about it. Yeah, yeah, I like that. Can’t wait. You’re excited. So, so your kid is going to high school soon, right? In two more years. He’s in seventh grade right now. Next year he’ll be going to eighth. Do you foresee your relationship change? Yes, yes. I would like to start stepping back when he goes into high school and and start more of a, you know, that grandfather role. And, and just be here. Because that that that I see that in Joseph think Joseph. Once Jesus was able to show him that he was able to take care of himself. Joseph pretty much just stayed in the back. So I hope that I’ll be able to do that. And especially in high school. It makes, makes sense. So, yeah, that that sounds like you. Oh, wow. Do you want to say hi to my no. Well, that there’s a skip. Leading role. Yes. So, yes. Are you good. Yes. Okay. So there’s, there’s this sense. It’s really nice to see him. It’s also nice to have him on camera a little bit. And there’s, there’s this sense of, of respecting agency and giving responsibility over their, their agency right when when the kids grow up, right, like when they, when they get into puberty. So that that’s that’s what I’m what I’m feeling from from me there. And I guess I guess I still have have one question. Which is hard. It gets hard. When I, when I think about it because I don’t. I, I, I sometimes become doubtful due to the influences, and because we. I want to make sure if there’s anything that I’m passing down through my faith is that they don’t need to feel alone. But I have to let them go. But I’m, you know, I’m here, if they need us to cheer you know. But it but it’s hard to know. You know the balance between between those two. Yeah. That, that, that part you, you’re no longer responsible responsibility to to involve you in their business. Yeah. So, yeah, like the last question that’s on my mind is, okay, so you, you’ve now got all of these ideas of what it means to be a good dad or a good parent, maybe. So, so how are you, how are you planning to communicate these, these things to your kids, it’s, it’s obvious that just the fact that they got to experience you and you got to see all of this stuff with you that that they’re, they’re going to inherit some of that, right, like they’re going to look at the world as if that’s the right thing to do. But, but in some sense, right, like you were talking about this, this sense where when when you got the words right like when you got the articulation of these ideas, your relationship changed a bit so I’m kind of looking for like how are you going to provide that. I hope that that. Okay. Yes. Yes. I’ll bless you too. So I, I in my journey that that I that I might get to have seen if there’s one thing that I even when I was dismissive that I’ve always encouraged is to have a, a way of relating to the world where they’re growing. You can say that that might be between my father and the culture that’s one thing they got right like you always have to be growing. You can’t get stuck. And if, and if there’s something that I hope that they’ll take with them is that that so the, the, the ability to be able to have agency and relate with that agency is the most important thing in their life. Yeah, so I’m still looking for, for some practical advice. So that that that’s that’s, I think you’re correct that that’s really important. So for the listeners maybe right like like, how would you, how would you communicate that to a listener. You need, you cannot do it by yourself, unfortunately. I cannot do this without people who are going to hold me accountable. And the church helps the discord helps. But reading a book and watching the YouTube video is not going to help you. That definitely does not work. You need you need people to talk to where they can keep you grounded. And one does not become. One is not too, too, too, too far from where, where they are able to relate with people, because just because you have new information, it doesn’t mean that people are ready for that information. And that that that’s probably the most humbling thing I’ve learned. You have you have to be grounded and meet people where they are. Because that that is what Mary ultimately helped me see. Yeah, that’s that’s really powerful, especially with kids right like you have to meet a kid where they’re at. And it’s always like that. It’s always like that at many different levels. And that’s something that I discovered through you and on the discord. It is not my aspect. I cannot do it. Looking at someone and and then seeing that they could be better. That’s the wrong way to do it. Look, looking at someone and discerning and then figuring out how you can help them in that and participate in that struggle. That is where where your true most truest reflection of your agency will be shown. That’s that’s. I learned that I learned that through through you guys. I learned how to articulate that through you guys. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, do you still have things that are alive for you? Forgive me. Things that you want to share like that were left out. Oh, no, this is just too much already. It was it was. Yeah, I am really grateful for for your sharing for your honesty for for you being there with me on my journey as well. Yeah, it’s yeah, it’s life is a rough ride. Yeah, it is. And I think it’s important to the people who are watching this thing, which I said to you earlier, what you’re seeing is only a small percentage of who we are. And it’s important that that that stays intimate. That stays with you that you pray and I reflect on that. What you’re doing is great, you know, and I hope that the people who do watch it understand that you’re doing this to show people the good in all of us. But this is just a small, a small reflect, a small sample of who we are. But an important. Yeah, yes, definitely. Definitely. That’s why I’m here. So thanks, everybody, for watching. Please leave comments. And share your experience. And I want to give real special thanks to Michelle for his participation, his sharing. And see you guys next episode.