https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=Fyg0YQJkmAo
Hello everybody, first question. Who is a francophone in the house? Wow! I’m happy to be a francophone. Unfortunately, I’m going to talk in English. This is also filmed, and I’m going to put it on YouTube if it doesn’t bother me. I’m going to do the presentation in English. So Patricia Markoccia and Maziar, who are behind this movie, asked me if I could host the event in Montreal, which I graciously accepted to. My name is Jonathan Pajot. You’ll see my face in this movie. I haven’t seen it, so I don’t know. I don’t know much about it. So don’t start punching me after the tour. I have no idea. But I’ve been hearing really good things about the documentary, so I’m excited to see it with you guys. If you don’t know a little bit the story of the movie, Patricia was filming a documentary about Jordan Peterson and his relationship with his friend Charles, who is Native American, and who is a carver. And Jordan and this man had developed a very close relationship to the extent that Jordan was adopted into his family. So Patricia was filming this story as the events around Jordan Peterson erupted. And that’s why she got this inside scoop on the event. Patricia and Maziar, just very normal, liberal, left-leaning people in Toronto, all of a sudden, Franklin and Jordan, all of a sudden see this crazy whirlwind around them and are trying to make sense of why such extreme positions are being taken regarding them. And so the documentary was kind of slowly built up as she was in this whirlwind, filming things, filming the events, and putting it together. She’s still actually trying to put together the documentary based on Jordan’s relationship with Charles, which should come out, hopefully, I think they’re crowdfunding right now for that. And so I met Jordan a few years ago, again, also before this whirlwind. I heard him on CDC, you know, and I was really excited about some of his ideas about psychology, how he understood religion, how he understood some of the problems we’re facing. And myself as well was caught up in this crazy story, all of a sudden, seeing all these extreme positions being pulled on each side of him. And so I’ve just been following the story just as you guys, and I’m excited to see how Patricia and Maziar are going to tell the story. So after the event, I’m going to give a short question and answer. Obviously, I can’t answer everything about Jordan Peterson. I’m not Jordan Peterson. There are a lot of things about the man that I love very much. I also have my criticisms of him, as I’m sure all of you do. And the great thing about Jordan is that he is willing to engage with those criticisms. So if you have questions for me, at the end, I will stick around and be willing to answer some questions. So enjoy the movie. So if you guys have, if there’s something you want to ask me, obviously, like I said, I can’t answer. I’m not Jordan Peterson. I can’t answer for him. But I can try to answer as best as I can the questions you have. If you ask a question in French, I will answer in French. If you ask a question in English, I will answer in English. If anybody has something they want to ask. Is there any arguments from the people who made the film as to what was left on the film’s floor that they were passionate shit about in the film? I don’t know how they perceive it right now, but one thing is for sure is that this movie was made out of a CBC special. I don’t know if some of you saw the CBC special. And so for them, it actually was an opportunity to put in the content that they had wanted to put in. Because in the CBC special, they obviously were somewhat, you know, they were under the CBC. They had certain requirements that they had to fill. And so making this movie was a way for them to do that, which to put in more content that they wanted to put in. So if there’s some content that they wanted to put in that they didn’t put in, I don’t know. Well, I don’t know. CBC, they had a certain angle that they wanted. They did it in the way that, you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t want to answer that. But it was also very short and they felt like they couldn’t get everything they wanted to get out into that video. So this was kind of the way that they could expand the discussion and make it bigger. In your opinion, is it fair? What, the movie? I think it’s fair. I think that… how can I say this? I would say that it’s hard because Jordan is such a polarizing figure and he’s my friend. So I think it’s fair in the sense that I feel like they presented the people that were closest to him, that criticized him. I felt like the criticisms that they posed, they put up some of the more controversial things that he’d said. So I feel like they were able to show a little bit of the controversy around him, some of the things he said that were kind of edgy, kind of on the edge. But at the same time, I do feel like what comes out is very positive. But that’s also because of my own, what I bring to it as well. Do you think that in the process of just focusing so much on Jordan’s polarizing effect, that his ideas, his deep ideas fall into the wayside? Like having seen his biblical things and his thoughts on alchemy and maps of meaning, like all his deep thoughts, Do you find he’s frustrated that he spends so much time talking about this stuff that he loses out on investigating those ideas further with people? I think that… Just a bit like a… Oh, okay. All right. So he asks if the polarization around Jordan, if it maybe is taking away from what his really deep message is in terms of his understanding of religion, his insights into alchemy, into different aspects of reality, if this polarizing effect is taking away from that. I think that it’s a 50… How can I say this? It’s like a 50-50 thing. Where on the one hand, I think Jordan is a very smart person and extremely… How can I say this? He’s very tactical. And so he was able also to use this controversy that he didn’t expect to be able to talk about the things that he really cared about. Something that’s lost over is his idea of prophetic dreams. And it’s kind of shown as like making him look crazy. But Jung has extensive writings on those. They’re legitimate concerns. And it’s just something we never hear about in a serious moment. So he says that Jordan has some insights on prophetic dreams. And in the video, it’s shown to make him look a bit crazy. But that it’s something that Jung has talked about. Well, I think in that section, they were really trying to show the point of view of the person, his friend, who criticized him. So I think that’s probably why it came out that way. Thank you. I just wanted to follow up. Really, the great rationalist philosopher also had prophetic dreams. I’m not writing a paper on that. I was wondering, do you know how Jordan and Tammy are doing? Because frankly, I’m kind of worried. Yeah, so you asked if I know how Jordan is doing because he’s worried. And his wife. Yeah, and his wife. It was very strange because I was having very short, you know, I had this kind of short little emailing changes with him. You know, we write notes back and forth every few months. And I didn’t really following Tammy’s story. And so when things started to get better, I got a note from him and he was saying that it seemed like it was getting better. And it was kind of this strange, surprising event. You know, they don’t really know exactly how it is that it happened, but she’s getting better. And then I learned about his own problems through Michaela’s video like most of us did. And so since then, I kind of waited a little bit. I sent him a short message. He didn’t answer. But I don’t know. I don’t know what he’s. I think that Jordan is a very he’s very smart and he realized his what was going on in terms of the medication that he was taking. And he probably just said, OK, I need to knit this in the bud because he wants to get back. He’s writing another book. He has so many things that he wants to do. So he just wants to get rid of this problem and then move on. That’s the way I perceive it. But I don’t know. I haven’t I haven’t had any news from him since. I heard an update today and they said it was an allergic reaction to the cycle band. And then it’s being resolved. OK, so he’s saying that he heard an update today that it was an allergic reaction to. Klonazepam. Yeah, Klonazepam, this strange medication for anxiety that he was reacting to. Yeah, that’s that’s what I heard as well. And that he’s checked. He checked himself into a rehab center to be able to kind of just get it out of the system and and move on. Am I correct in my understanding that this is the only showing of this documentary in Canada? So he asked if it’s the only showing of the documentary in Canada. No, it’s going to be shown in several places in Canada. It’s going to be, I think, the only showing in Montreal. But, you know, it got shut down in Toronto. Do you know why? Yeah, because someone who works for the movie theater complained about how some things were were offensive. And now it just got shut down in New York for they did one showing in New York and it was sold out. And then they said, OK, so we’re going to add another showing. And it was shut down. I’m as you are sending a message just this morning to tell me. So it’s crazy because when you watch the documentary, it’s hard to imagine that someone could have presented a fair representation, considering that it is about Jordan Kiddeson, that it is a video. It is a documentary about him, but that there is this desire to fairly show all the sides that despite that, there’s still this desire to still shut him down. So what was offensive? So she asked what was offensive. I don’t know. I don’t know what was offensive. I mean, I think it had to do with the same issue that from the beginning that to do with the transgender questions. Freedom of expression is something that actually affects us as Canadians right over here. And that’s not really a thing that happens south of the border, correct? So he says freedom of expression is something that affects us here in Canada, but it’s not necessarily something that is affecting people south of the border. I think it’s a question that is being posed right now. You know, if there’s so many confluence of events that are bringing this whole freedom of expression question, social media, the Internet, all these things have opened up the door for all kinds of possibilities of expression that we didn’t realize that were before. Anonymous, you know, like all these anonymous people online that say the wildest things because they’re anonymous, all these things, they didn’t exist before. So this is all new and people are trying to figure out how do we deal with this? How far do we let it go? And so it’s a difficult problem, but it’s true that in the U.S. people aren’t protected by the Constitution itself. And so those that are for freedom of speech, they have something to stand upon, whereas in Canada we don’t have that constitutional stand. We just have a kind of common law or a common vision of how we imagine freedom in a Western society. But it’s not necessarily, it’s not as ingrained in our culture for sure. Yes sir? Will the film eventually be available online? So he asked if the film will be available online. Yes, they’re negotiating right now. It’s for sure it’s going to be on Apple, iTunes, and they’re negotiating with other streaming platforms. Movie poster? I’ve looked everywhere. He’s asking for a movie poster? I don’t know. One thing I noticed, the movie didn’t really talk much at all about the impact of the Biblical series that he did. I was wondering if you have any overall comments about his Biblical series and if you guys ever talked about it. So he asks because the movie didn’t deal with George’s Biblical series, he’s asking me about that. If we’ve talked about it, if there’s something, what I think about the Biblical series. I think that George’s Biblical series are on the one hand this amazing thing that came about where here’s this professor talking about the Bible, trying to get to the deepest meaning that he can find in the Bible, and millions of people watching it. And it’s just astounding. That first video about what is God, I think it’s got millions of views by now. So I thought it was just astounding. And then about the Biblical lectures themselves, sometimes he says great amazing things, and sometimes he says things that are questionable, sometimes he says things that are kind of just, we don’t know where he gets them from. So it’s like this wild roller coaster, and that’s Jordan Peterson. He is like I’m going to take you on this trip that I’m on, and I’m not sure exactly where I’m going, I’m going to ride this and I’m going to pay attention to what people are saying, and I’m willing to change my opinion if I’m saying something too weird. So when you watch the video, sometimes someone’s like wow this amazing insight, and then where is he going? I don’t understand why he’s going there. And oh wow this amazing insight. So that’s how I feel about his Biblical series. I would love to have more time to talk to him about that, but to be honest Jordan has become, I mean if Tammy says that she’s lost into the world, for sure I think all of his friends feel similar. Like I have little tidbits, little emails from Jordan, and he regrets it. He says, you know, I’m sorry I’m not able to be more present, but that’s reality. Yeah I haven’t seen Jordan in, I guess since late 2008, early 2018 I think, so I haven’t seen him for more than almost two years, a year and a half. Yes, good evening. I’m here to see the Board of Peterson. I’m also extremely interested in freedom of speech and freedom of expression. We don’t have a constitution like the state, but we do have a Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom, which I haven’t studied, but I haven’t looked into. So I just wanted to clarify that free speech is one thing in Canada, and freedom of expression is an entirely other thing. So I would encourage everybody to go to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and discover what they are. Thank you. So he said that we do have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and he encourages everybody here to see what our Canadian Charter says about freedom of speech in Canada. My reaction to the film is that I think Peterson is trying to make an idea of what he wants to avoid, because of the way he will approach it. I think he’s talking about the motto of fascism and nationalism, but what it feeds is the communist and the two opposing forces, which is that he will have one of the extremes that will persist. And in the film, it’s only left to the right, and in the contempt that I feel for him, and I think he’s quite affiché for the social justice world, he’s trying to feed this angle and enlarge the hole that exists instead of rooting for society. I wanted to know your reaction to this. Do you have a criticism of this side of the film, or do you agree with the film? In my experience, I was put in the spotlight at one point. I started to make emails, people contacted me, and what I saw at the beginning, and I’m talking about this in the interview, at the beginning I noticed that the people on the right weren’t really attached to Jordan, because it seemed that there were so few right-wing characters in Canada, in fact there aren’t any, who are interesting. So they got attached to him, and they said, OK, he’s going to be our character. But what I also saw, well I saw two things. I had the personal experience of people who were tempted by extreme right, by neo-Nazi ideas, ideas of extreme right, who, because of Jordan Peterson, came back to a normal center, a kind of conservative right, like I said, do your life, work hard, make a family. That’s the real conservative, that’s not the kind of nationalist or identitarist. I saw it, I have several people who contacted me, and told me their story, how they moved from the extreme to something less extreme. Let me ask you something. I feel that, I think it’s love that will bring the gap. And the fact that there is this social justice lawyer, I look at people who think that they are in a little bit of a hurry, and I want to take care of them, and I think that’s not what’s bothering me. And I think it crystallizes in the debate rather than bringing it together. Isn’t that right? Yes, listen, I, what I saw, that’s it, it really depends on how you see it. What I saw from him, is that as soon as all this happened, he immediately put his hand up, and he put his hand up to see if there were people in the trans community who were ready to talk to him. There was no one who was ready to talk to him, except for trans people who were conservative. And right after that, he made a video with a person in Vancouver, and he did an interview with her, where he talked and asked her, how can we get to an agreement? So he immediately put his hand up, and he did conferences with her in Vancouver. I was there at one of the conferences he did with her. What was the name of the person? I don’t remember. Thayer Mayer. Thayer Mayer, yes. So, that’s the gesture I saw him do, to try to put his hand on the side of people who saw him as their enemy, without necessarily compromising his point of view, without necessarily saying, well, I was just accepting all your requests. That’s what he said. He said, I want to discuss, but I don’t want to say because I refuse certain things, that I’m a monk, I’m a Nazi, I’m… Because everyone is ready with their finger, their political capacity. It’s not just this community. All communities will put their point where they can to advance their political goal. So, that’s the same thing. You see a lot of people getting their lives in order, coming to faith, all these things that are happening because of the Jordan Peterson phenomenon. But what is next for this? Because it seems like maybe it was a bit of a, like this big event that happened, Peterson had a lot of attention, and I might be wrong, and the media is starting to peter out of it. So, I wonder, what do you think is going to happen next? What’s the next change in the culture? How are we going to move things into better shape? So, he asked, what’s next? He said, the Jordan Peterson event was a moment, and he’s bringing people back to fixing up their lives, back to faith, all these things. But he asked, what do we do now? Because, of course, it’s a wave, and the wave feels like it’s kind of going down, and I’m like, oh, my goodness, every time I think, all right, Jordan’s reached his peak, and then it’s like, okay, one more, it’s like one more million, anyway. But it’s true, at some point it’s going to fade. It’s just like any phenomena at some point is going to reach some height, and it’s going to fade. And I think that’s when we need to take what he’s saying, the best things of what he’s saying, to take them at heart, which is us now. It’s our job to make our lives better, to make our families better, to make our immediate communities better, and work on that, and have real relationships, and that’s the next step. Because even that’s what he says is the only thing that’s going to save our culture, is if you take care of the people around you, and you love your neighbor, instead of being on Twitter fighting some… And Jordan is guilty of that, like Mathieu mentioned, he does it, and sometimes he’s told me, he said, okay, his son will take away his Twitter rights sometimes, because he just gets caught up. And even myself, he kept telling me, he says on Twitter, don’t answer anybody that you don’t follow, or else you’re in serious trouble, like just don’t do it, it just drags you into these emotions, and it’s not worth it. And he’s not perfect, he’s fallen into that hole, you saw some of those crazy tweets. And so he’s done it himself, and I’m sure if you asked him, he’d be like, oh man, I can’t believe I did that, he’s very reasonable in that sense. So I think it’s us, that’s the only thing I can say. That’s a good point, that’s a good point. And then you work with people who want to work with you, and you have to be consistent. Okay. Okay. You have a privileged access to Jordan. I was just curious to hear what you like the most about him, and what your biggest criticism is. My biggest criticism? No, but he has what I like the most about him. I think what I like the most about him, if I can just say one thing, is that he’s not the real thing. What you see there, that’s it. There’s nothing else. He doesn’t pretend. There are a lot of people who say, oh, he does that, it’s just an act because he wants to be known. No, everything he says, anyway, you hear the letter he wrote to his father in 1986, he says the same thing there. And then, well, Maquick is ready to change his opinion when he’s confronted with that. And then when I talk to him, when you say someone listens to you, it’s really disarming to meet someone who looks at you, who listens to you. And then there’s a scene that we see when he meets one of his students, and you see he listens to him, and she says something, and you say, yeah, okay. And you see, he takes it seriously, he listens, he listens. That’s what I would say is the thing that I admire the most about him. You know, my biggest criticism… It’s hard to formulate one criticism. Let’s say that my criticism of him is that I don’t agree with some of his ideas. I agree with him as a person, I admire him a lot and I respect him, and I find that he is sincere, I trust him, but there are some of his ideas that I just don’t agree with. There are some interpretations that I find that he doesn’t understand Christianity. There are some aspects of postmodernism, for example, that I think he doesn’t understand postmodernism. There are several little things that he says sometimes that I’m like… There are some opinions that I just don’t agree with. But what’s great about him is that it’s okay. I was… I’m a Christian, you saw, I’m a Christian. I made a video with Rebel Wisdom where I… It was called Jordan Peterson the heretic. And I said that what he said was totally in my ethics, it wasn’t at all Christian. And then I sent Jordan a video and said, Hey Jordan, here’s me calling you a heretic. He doesn’t mind. Because it doesn’t make me less of a friend because I don’t agree with his ideas. And he’s not going to blame me because I criticize him in public. That’s it, that’s what I appreciate the most about him. It’s that despite the fact that I can say in front of everyone, I’m this, that, I think it’s not their thing. And as you see his friend, you know, we see him, he’s like, no, I can’t believe you said that. That you said that, but it’s not going to affect his friendship with Jordan. And that’s what’s great about him. Wait, wait, I’ll go to Auguste and then you, Raziel. Before the film, I was wondering where we were going to see in the film. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I was wondering, I think you wanted to ask the same question. I’m sure we’ve heard you talk about the political and political issue. And I was wondering if you’re comfortable with this place in the film. Honestly, he asks if I’m comfortable with the place I appeared in the video in relation to politics, especially. Honestly, I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised that’s it. We did an interview, but you know how interviews work. I did an interview, two hours, with them, you know, a lot of questions, and I was surprised that’s what they put in. Because that was the theme of the video, the problem of the political controversy around it. Well, it’s certain for those who have seen my videos, what interests me is the symbolism, that’s what interests me the most. That’s what connected me to Jordan. It’s his vision, his ability to see the world with structures, to look at the world with certain structures, to understand how these structures are made. That’s what attracted me to him more than the whole political side. So I’m not surprised, but at the same time, I don’t identify with this documentary. I’m not… I’m there, I agree with what I said, but it’s not me. I’m not an individual, but I do believe that Jordan Peterson’s stance kind of stems towards understanding that in the political spectrum, that there’s people out there in the world that want to govern the type of environmental management for other individuals, so that people cannot freely express themselves or identify themselves in a certain manner without them having to go through some form of conflict or some form of… sorry, aggression of some sort towards a certain group, a marginalized group. And I think that that’s what he is fighting for in my opinion. So I want to ask you, there’s a movie that’s coming out. You already heard of the Joker movie that’s coming out, right? You’ve heard that there are people that are not necessarily feeling a certain way about the movie due to the fact that it’s apparently violent, and it encourages certain people on a certain side to view that particular movie in a way that’s supposed to encourage them to do the exact same thing that’s happening within that content of the movie. But do you believe that people are more than capable of trying to follow something like that as if it’s like a blueprint? Yeah. So he asked mostly… I mean, he said something about Joker, but he ended up asking about the Joker movie and what I think in terms of how there’s this crazy reaction to the Joker movie and how it’s going to be a blueprint for certain people to act a certain way. I think it’s hilarious. I mean, I think it’s… I’m sorry. I think it’s funny because it just came out like two weeks ago. It just came out about a clown that kills children, and then two weeks later there’s this Joker movie, but now this is the movie that is being targeted. I haven’t seen the movie. I’m going to go see it for sure now. For sure I’m going to go see it. And I might do a YouTube interpretation of it because I’m trying to understand what is happening in the culture so that this movie was targeted for this kind of weird political pressure that we’re seeing. It’s very strange. I think it’s quite funny that you mentioned about the IT movie because I’ve also heard that somebody made a post about a trigger warning for those who are of the LGBT community, right? Specifically those in the, I guess, L and the G, right? Due to the fact that a gay couple in the IT movie, Chapter 2, got murdered in a certain way. And they said that it was traumatizing, so if anybody feels a certain way they shouldn’t watch the movie because of that. Right. Yes, sir. I was wondering if… I think the ideological leaning of the people that made the movie were, because I tend to get the sense that they tried to be fair, but I also feel that they may have tried probably too much. There seemed to be very little of Jordan and more of other people, which was kind of strange for me. And maybe if a team, I’m thinking if a team at the wider ideological scope, it may have been… But even the… May have gotten, well, different results. So he asked about the political leanings of the people who made the movie, and he wonders if it had changed the movie and whether or not, because there’s a lot of other people besides Jordan in the movie and everything. I mean, they might watch this movie, so I’m going to say it, Patricia. I mean, they’re just regular left-leaning artistic types from Toronto. Patricia was new Jordan from before, and they got all caught up in this. And so they’re trying to figure it out for themselves as well. Like, where do they stand in terms of kind of these left-leaning people in this question of prestige and this question of Jordan, because they obviously like him, they admire him, but they’re trying to understand it. So yeah, they do have their own political leaning. But I don’t think that another version of this movie could have been made, and it would be playing in theaters. This movie is already being shut down. So if any other type of movie had been made, oh my goodness. As a matter of supporting symbology, if you could distill Jordan’s essence down to some archetypes or some symbols? So he asked, as someone who’s good in symbology, if I could distill his symbology, what would I do? Jordan warns against doing that. He says several times that you never should become an archetype, because it’ll kill you. I’ve said several times that I think that Jordan is a, and I say it in the movie as well, that he’s an in-between figure. And that’s why he’s receiving all the scorn from both sides. So he doesn’t fit. He’s kind of like this strange figure. I’ve said he’s something like John the Baptist or someone like Elijah. These weird figures that are kind of out of place, and they’re telling everybody, pay attention, pay attention. You know, Elijah’s, sorry, John the Baptist’s main saying was, here’s Elijah’s voice crying out in the wilderness, right? Make straight the ways for the Lord. It’s basically saying clean your room. That’s what John the Baptist was saying. John the Baptist was saying clean your room, right? So that something bigger can happen. And so that, if I could reduce Jordan Peterson to one thing, I would say he’s kind of a weird John the Baptist figure. Weird John the Baptist. Sorry, somebody who hasn’t yet. So given that the film was shut down in Toronto and in New York, were you at all worried that something similar would happen here? So he asks if I was worried that something would happen here. No, I was not worried that something would happen here. And the reason why I was not worried is because Jordan’s just not that known here. If you notice, he didn’t come to Montreal on his 12 Rules for Life. Francophone culture has not really kind of seen him on the horizon. So I think that he has too little attention to draw any ire in Montreal. I thought differently, actually. I thought it was just because of the fact that this is more of a, I would say, somewhat more conservative type where Ontario, especially Toronto, is more liberal at least, leaning. So I thought maybe he did. Yes? Why do you think Jordan is not picking up with our Quebec Francophone culture? Why I think Jordan is not picking up with our Quebec Francophone culture. I think one of the reasons is because a lot of the kind of crazy postmodern stuff, like the really, really intense, it’s just not here, at least not yet. So there’s some inkling of it. We see it a little bit. But it’s not this massive, it’s not a massive movement in Quebec. So I think that a lot of the things that Jordan is saying, at least for now, it’s not really resonating because we don’t have it as much here. How do you see my perception? If I could just comment on the fact that Jordan is using his politics, and I don’t know if he’s going to live in Montreal, he’s going to be attacked by the media. Purely instantly. They’re going to destroy him. They’re going to station his message. So I think he’s going to do a lot of attention. I’m suggesting that if Jordan were to come here, the media would attack him. I think that’s true. But it’s just that there’s no attention here. I mean, if we read his book, 12 Rules for Life in French, I’d go to Costco in Vente, because I don’t think he’s ever seen anything like that in Quebec. If you know the 12 Rules for Life book, it was a condensation of an answer that he wrote on Quora. It was like 40-something answers, like 50 answers or something. So he’s just going to take a lot of those other rules that he wanted to talk about and make a sequel to his book. Yeah, go ahead. I’m going to ask what you would think is missing in Jordan Peterson’s worldview or view of the world like that. I think he has this idea in terms of purpose that you have a kind of intuition base. Your ideal, you know what you should do. And I think one time he said, follow that ideal unless you have a level of thought and you think that you should do evil things. In which case you kind of screwed up, but follow that ideal. So he’s asking me what I think is missing in Jordan Peterson. I think that because Jordan is so wary about totalitarian thought, because he’s so wary of totalitarian thought, he really focuses on individualism. And the danger of that is that it can become that, it can become individualism. And we’ve had enough individualism in the world. We’ve had enough of fragmented individuals who just are on their own. And I know that’s not what he wants. And I know, I don’t want to distort his message, I know that’s not what he wants. But sometimes he will point to the fact that these communions of individuals, it has to scale up. It has to scale up into communities and scale up into something more. And so the difficulty of that is that that does end up looking something like identity. Now the question is, how do we do that so that it’s not dangerous and that it’s not toxic? How can we create communion without the danger of the totalitarian extreme? And I think that that’s something that he doesn’t really talk about a lot. And so obviously I come from my own side. I believe that that’s what religion did. And he says that too, that’s what religion used to do. But he’s not willing to, he doesn’t want to say that it could still be possible. And for me that’s the big gap, I would say. I offer a possible way of looking at that individualism might be more about rights, but it pushes responsibility a lot more. So to take individuality with responsibility, it’s a hypothesis, but I think that’s probably what he’s saying, going down the road of it. Yeah, that is exactly the way that he frames it. And I think that there’s some value to that, which is he’s saying I’m telling people, individuals, that they have to take on all on themselves. That they have to take on the responsibility on themselves and not focus on their rights and their privileges. And I agree, but I still don’t see how in this system it scales up. I mean, I think it does, but yeah. Just to jump off that, what I found most interesting about Jordan was he gave a talk on creativity. He talks about Mozart’s Symphony, Shakespeare, Lion King, all that stuff. And it’s interesting how he brings those stories to life. And I’m wondering if he would take his message more to the mainstream culture, like Connie West tweeted about Jordan Peterson. And I was waiting for the Connie West and Jordan interview. I don’t know if it’s impossible, but I was like, this is a great opportunity for Jordan to use that channel. Because right now it’s a very political ideas university. And to hit the mainstream, it’s like, what effect would Jordan have on the post-war world music? No, I think that he would definitely do that, for sure. I mean, he sold three million books. That’s not academic level discussion. No, of course, I’m not making that up. I’m just saying that it would be cool to just… To have a Connie West or Jordan Peterson. I’m waiting for that interview. I’ve been waiting for that interview since before I knew Jordan Peterson. I’ve been waiting for a Connie West interview. So maybe Jordan Peterson can jump on and go first. I don’t know. It’s gonna be cool. Alright, maybe, yeah, go ahead, Mike. The part of the film that, for me, that I probably loved the most, disheartening, was the senior professor who wrote the article. He thinks he’s becoming a dangerous figure. More than that, it was when he said that Jordan was trying to reach out to him multiple times, and he still didn’t talk to him. That was the part that kind of stopped him. Do you think that most people perceive Jordan Peterson as someone who wants to genuinely have good faith conversations with them? Or as just someone who’s just listening, but he’s not really thinking about what he’s saying? So he says that the most disheartening part was the part when his friend wrote that article, and then wasn’t going to take Jordan’s calls, despite the fact that Jordan was calling him and calling him. They ask about how people perceive. I mean, I don’t know how people perceive Jordan Peterson. For sure, I think that, like I said, my experience of him is that he’s the real deal. He’s what you see. He’s not pretending. He wants to have as much real contact that when he tears up, he’s not theater. He’s actually generally touched by whatever effect he’s able to have and to see people get their lives together and to see people mend their relationships. And that’s like he’s he’s he really wants that to happen. So people that don’t like him and that are that are that have already made up their minds at this point, I don’t think they’re going to change. I don’t think they’re going to change their mind. And Jordan has been saying now for a year that he he wants to stop doing interviews just because it’s so exhausting. You guys don’t realize that when he does an interview with that, like when he does one of those interviews like that French guy that you saw in the interview, like just how arrogant he is and just kind of like Jordan is out for like three days after that because he just he doesn’t want that. He doesn’t like that. He hates it. He hates these kind of conflictual conversations. People think that he’s looking for them, that he’s someone gets a rise out of this conflict. He despises it. And so when he has to face this thing, he’s going to face it. But then it’s like it just it just wrecks him. And so he he’s been he’s been saying that he wants to get away from that for a while. I don’t know if he’ll be able to. But one of the biggest criticisms of Jordan is that he’s a bit of a Rorschach test. What’s your take on that? So he says one of the biggest criticisms of Jordan is that he’s a bit of a Rorschach test. And what’s my thought about that? I think that you’re I think that you’re not totally wrong. I think that that’s what a that’s what one of those that’s what an intermediary character is. An intermediary character is a character that isn’t totally defined and you project into that character. And that’s why people are projecting into him because it’s crazy. It’s like the type of things people are saying. You know, I know people that have told me, you know, extreme right people who write people who write me and say, how can you even talk to him? He’s a he’s a globalist. He’s a shill. He’s an Illuminati. He’s you know, he’s all this. And then and then someone else is saying that he’s a Nazi, that he’s you know, that he’s a horrible misogynist racist, all this stuff. So it’s like, how can he be his two extremes at the same time? But that’s the thing. That’s that’s why he’s attracting that a program. That’s why he’s attracting that because he has he is this weird intermediary character. And so he is a Rorschach test. I agree. I agree. Just along those lines, sometimes I like him a lot. I find that you’re setting up. Imagine one of my questions was, I feel that he’s quite intense and he does listen and authentic. That’s what I get out of him. The feeling I get. But sometimes I’ve seen him in some interviews and that and I think you’re so smart, man. And you know, this guy, like, just break it down. Like, he doesn’t break it down. I find sometimes he doesn’t know. I will see. He doesn’t know how to close the gap. He knows the other person is is going off a bit or like, I think he’s so bright that I think he would know how to rejoin the parts and he doesn’t do it. I think he comes from a position of love. But maybe I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah, he is tired. She says she says a lot of interviews and she feels like he could connect things like he could he could he could bring things together. But then he doesn’t. They’d be smart. He should and he doesn’t. And it’s, you know, all I can say about that is how many of us have ever been in a public discussion where someone is attacking. Like, I have never been in that situation, you know, where you’re on air, you know, there’s going to be a million people watching. And now the person is going after you. It’s like, how do you even react to that? So I think that a lot of it is that is just trying to stay cool. My goodness. It’s like he doesn’t get angry a lot. I would, you know, you can imagine just just saying this is it. This interview is done and see you have bad intentions. I’m out of here. It’s like. But so so I think a lot of it is that it’s just just tough. Yeah, maybe. So it was really a lot of times when I was in this video or something like this and how I always perceived that trans community has the opposite views. So there’s this multidimensional phenomenon that is where you have the academic side of the bigger side. And then you have the person who is just trying to be true to his values. And sometimes it’s gone, you know, those things. And you’re saying what we’re seeing is that he has this fight that’s going for him against like what is against freedom of speech. And that’s what the trans community is getting focused on. But I sort of refuse to believe that all of his other aspects, one of which is better yourself, can get across to that community. And if it does, why don’t we see those as the media? So he says that he feels like I’ll try to connect with you said, but he said he feels like that often how it’s presented that he’s talking, it seems like it’s against the trans community, but that there are all these complex. He’s a very multifaceted figure, you know, part of the figure, psychologists, all these things. And, you know, like his book Rules for Life is wondering why, you know, people in the trans community could use some of the things that he said that there’s nothing like. There’s nothing about trans people in that book. It’s a book about how to make your life better and why they’re not willing to necessarily. There isn’t that connection. And I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know how to answer that question because I don’t know. I’m not in that community. You know, I think that there’s a lot of people that are very vocal in that community, which don’t necessarily represent the whole community. There are people who are just doing their thing and they’re just trying to live their lives. So it’s like I don’t I don’t have that question that. So maybe some maybe this could be the last one because I saw the guy from the cinema come in and look at me. Yeah, yeah. It’s just not really a question to announce. Yeah. I want to carry on the conversation. There’s a group of eight of us that are having a meet up across the street. Oh, so maybe I can make an announcement to especially across the street. So I’m also I’m also because I’m doing this YouTube thing and it’s I feel like you know how this lady said we need to do real people thing. So what I want to start doing is I also want to start to organize some kind of discussion in French probably. So because I want to go back. So I’m probably going to want to do some you guys all you’re speaking people can get to find all the kinds of stuff. And I probably wanted to start a French speaking kind of discussion group to talk about about a lot of issues that joins me about about spirituality about you know even politics. I’m not a big political guy but you can talk about politics too. So if you’re interested in that possibility you can write I have my business cards here. I can give you a card you can write me an email and I’ll try to set something up for those who are interested in that maybe hopefully even starting next month. So if you’re interested in that kind of discussion you can come up to see me and I can set it up. Alright guys thank you for coming. Thank you. If you enjoy the symbolic world content there’s a lot of things you can do to help us out. If you’re not subscribed please do go ahead and share this to all your friends if you can get involved in the discussion. 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