Enhanced Interrogation Techniques ｜ Mohamedou Ould Slahi

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If you had to be beaten or you had to listen to people being tortured, I know this is a terrible question, but it speaks to the intensity of listening to people being tortured. Which of those was more torturous? Listening, absolutely no question asked. Why? Yes, because when they start beating me, okay, a lot of anxiety and a lot of inside pain goes away because my body is weakened. And the problem is to have like strong body and destroyed soul because somehow the soul and body has to be balanced out. If you threaten me and then you put me in a situation, especially if you have power over me, put me in a situation that is so painful and I’m eating myself from inside. But when you beat me and then you cause me pain and that pain, this is horrible to say, but it’s good for me to work because it weakens the sharpness of my mind to process the perceived pain that I may be receiving. I’m speaking today with Mohammed Uld Salahi, born December 21st, 1970, who spent 14 years in Guantanamo Bay without being charged, arriving August 4th, 2002, released October 17th, 2016. He wrote a memoir in 2015 while still imprisoned. The US government declassified it in 2012 with numerous redactions. It was the first work by a still imprisoned Guantanamo detainee published in 2015, became a international bestseller. It details Salahi’s experience of being force-fed seawater, sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution, repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face and all spiced with threats that his mother would be brought to Guantanamo and gang raped. Foreign officials prevented Salahi from receiving a copy of his published book. The Mauritanian, a film adaptation of the memoir, was released on February 12th this year directed by Kevin MacDonald and starring Jodie Foster, Tahar Rahim, Benedict Cumberbatch and Shailene Woodley. He’s been living in Mauritania since his release. He reattained his passport last year and has been attempting to gain permission to travel, not least to Germany to see his son. Thank you so much for inviting me today in your program. And I feel truly honored to talk to you and to your audience. My name is Mohammed Morsalahi. I come from Mauritania. I was born in the South. My father was a camel herder. I don’t know any father of mine who wasn’t a camel herder of sort. And my dream was to grow to be a camel herder just like my father. But this dream was cut short because of the successive drought that hit the country in the 70s and the 80s. So all our camels died out. So died, I mean. And we had only very few that couldn’t sustain the life of a big family. So we are 12 siblings from the same father and the same mother. So my mother decided single-handedly to move the family against the will of my father near the city for the children to find jobs and just to make livelihood because my father was hanging on a dream that would never materialize. So he was living in this fantasy that he could recuperate. But that’s how many camels did your father have? And you were living in a rural area at that point, obviously. Yes. So I heard. So when I the thing I remember, it’s like a dozen, a little bit of a dozen. And then they became fewer and fewer. So when my father died, when I was 11, we had only like several, maybe three, four. And how did you survive? I mean, how is it possible for a family of that size to survive with that limited supply of livestock? What else was the family doing in order to keep everything together? So my father, my mother decided that the kids need to abandon this lifestyle and find jobs in the cities. So my oldest brother went to Senegal across the border. We were just at the border, southern border to Senegal. And I was seven at the time. This was 78. And then the other kids found a job at Baycrest and just to make ends meet. So we have the same plate. So we all contribute. They couldn’t find a job for me because I was very weak and very small. Then the second best thing they sent me to school. And it was by accident. And I didn’t have a birth certificate. So they went to the school. The principal said he doesn’t have birth certificate, but I accept him. And I want you to give me birth certificate. That’s why you see my birth certificate has different like birth dates, sometime no birth date, sometime 31st, sometime 21st, sometime 1-1. So anyway, and then I fell in love with school because I just loved it. And I remember this very hot day, very hot. When we say hot in Mauritania, it’s really hot. And the school was, I just went the other day and I measured the distance. It was about two kilometers. That is over one mile. And I used to walk this distance back and forth twice a day because we have the morning from eight to 12 and the afternoon class from three to five. So meaning I walk every day at least eight kilometers, about six miles every day. And I didn’t have shoes. And I remember running and then my feet burn like beyond the description. And I would go to structures and the few trees to cool them down. And then on my way, this, our neighbor, which was like doing well, she stopped me and starts scolding me, telling me why didn’t you wear your shoes? And then started telling me this is really bad and you should always wear your shoes. And I was burning. She was talking to me and I was burning. And I was too ashamed, Jordan, to tell her that I didn’t have money to buy shoes. My family was so poor. We just came from the countryside and she just kept scolding me. So I agreed to go back to my home and then pretend that I wear shoes. But instead I took another route where I avoided this woman. That’s how we did. It’s like I rarely ate meat because I didn’t have money. And so, but I did well in school, even though like my family never asked me how I did. They didn’t even understand the concept of passing from one class to the next. Were you the only sibling who went to school? Yes, me and the older one. What kind of education did your parents have? Aside from Bedouin education, none. So Bedouin education where you learn how to read, to write, or like homeschooling, which is automatic. When I went to school, I know how to read and write because that’s because we were like a book tribe. You know, a tribe that, you know, because you have in Mauritania like the tribes that carry weapons and the tribe that carry the books. So we carry the books. And what’s the distinction between those two? What’s the distinction between those tribes? Obviously books and weapons, but I’ve never heard that distinction drawn before. So what does that mean exactly? So it means it’s like kind of a caste system that disappeared, but I saw it in my lifetime. So some tribes carry weapons and like build this emirate. Like they collect taxes and they provide security and they like protect the borders. And some tribes, they don’t carry weapons, they just carry the books. And then they take this religious leadership where they like organize religious ceremony like marriage, like divorce, like jurisprudence, like kind of an unofficial judiciary. I see. So there’s no separation between those functions in some sense and having the books. And what books? What are the characteristic books? Yes. So what we learn is mostly like the grammar, Arabic grammar, and the Greek philosophy and religion, Quran, and the tradition, what we call hadith. And that’s it. That’s the extent of it. No languages, etc, etc. And what’s the Greek philosophy? You said that was taught at home. Yes, all of it. And so what did you learn about Greek philosophy? It seems like a rather strange intermingling. So how does that come about the mixture of Greek philosophy and education according to the Quran, let’s say? Well Jordan, so I didn’t advance in this homeschooling to get to Greek philosophy because you have to be old enough. So the Islamic jurisprudence is based on what they call usul. And usul is derived from Greek philosophy. So the whole jurisprudence is derived from the logic of the Greeks. And we have always this discussion that in order to modernize our jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence, we have to learn Leibniz and we have to learn about Einstein, we have to because the Greek philosophy on which this whole Islamic jurisprudence is built is outdated, obviously. And so. So OK, so back to your schooling. So you came into the city, you couldn’t find a job specifically. So you were sent off to school. And what kind of school was that? What did you learn there? And was it like a standard classroom that sort of I mean, a standard Western classroom? How was it organized? What did you learn? So it was a French school system that we the government inherited from the French colonial time. And and it was just different than the school system. I’m used to at home because at home I can learn at my own pace and there are no tests. You know, you just learn what you want. And then for as long as you want, which was much more advanced and much more better for me. But the school system, it was so much the French school system, so much pressure. So I had like very strict curriculum and I have to go with it, even though if it’s like quicker, I have to keep pace and if it’s like too slow, I have to wait. So I cannot like learn with my own pace. And so and I did well, actually. So I was always number one until I graduated. Never was I number two. And I used like what I learned at home, you know, and it was a big advantage for me. And so as soon as I finished high school, I received a scholarship from Germany. You know, this is like wild. I’m a Bedouin. Right. Yeah, I’m a Bedouin. Did you even know what it meant at that point to receive a scholarship from Germany? No, it was all by accident, pure accident, because I really wanted to go to France because I loved like France because there is so much advertisement and I watch like French TV. I like French music. Like, what’s her name? Mon Ami Larose. Melody Sumata. What’s her name again? Yeah, I forgot her name. Mon Ami Larose. It’s very old. Edith Piaf. Yes. Yes, Edith Piaf. Yeah, I love it. It’s a great movie made of Edith Piaf’s life. It’s a brilliant movie. Yes. Yeah. So I want France. This is all advertisement, you know, and the magazines. So I want to go to France. Did you enjoy the French school? Did you enjoy the French school system or was it was it hard on you? You did well. So what was it like as an experience? I enjoyed it a lot. But you know, I enjoyed I went to two schools at the same time. So I went to the traditional Quran school and the French school. I went to the Quran school because I loved the friendship in the mosque, you know, like what you would call in Canada, Sunday school. I don’t know whether you have it, but you can always talk about it. So I love this Sunday school because I have so much freedom so I can do whatever I want and there is no pressure whatsoever. And ironically, the thing I learned in the in the Sunday school, I mean, in the mosque, I retain them to this day because I chose to learn them, you know, and and in the French school. Yes, there was like some kind of pressure, especially during the test. I don’t like tests. I think tests are the worst thing that the Western civilization has come up with. I don’t think tests are horrible. Why should I test anyone? If you don’t want to learn something, just don’t learn it, you know. And if I was responsible for the system in my country, I would do away my first day with tests, no tests. You just learn as you want. And if you are a doctor, you just go to the hospital and work in the hospital. Your senior doctors will know whether you are qualified or not. If you are a computer engineer, you just go find someone to show them what you learn and then they will give you a job and they will see whether you can do the job or not because test is not indicative of anything. Well, you had intrinsic motivation, obviously, and you love to learn. So it was probably superfluous for you to have the pressure added. So you got a scholarship to Germany. What happened as a consequence? So it was 1988. I was only 70. And it was the first time any member of my family ever traveled abroad. Aside from Senegal. Senegal is just very close. It was the first time any member of my family ever boarded a plane. It was amazing. And I remember when the plane took off, I was frantically reading Quran because I memorized the Quran to this day. I know every single page. And this student who already went to France said, are you scared? I didn’t know my answer, what was my answer. But actually, I was scared. But I’m sure I told him I wasn’t scared. Well, it’s not surprising. I mean, first of all, you were on a plane for the first time and you’re not familiar with them. And then you’re going to a completely foreign country and no one in your family has ever done that. And tell me about the tribe. You said you were from again, from the tribe that was focused on books. What’s the tribal organization? It’s beyond the family, obviously. What does it look like? So a tribe is kind of a small country like the tribe. A tribe is a family name. So you have your tribe, that’s your family. So if you are sick, they will provide you. If you get in trouble with another tribe, they will go to the tribe and they will make peace. If there is money that needs to be paid, they would pay the money. Let’s say if you kill someone, you know, by mistake. So your tribe will pay for the other family who lost that person, you know, as like a kind of insurance. And I always say in Mauritania, we should adopt this tribal system, but the country should be one single tribe. Just like in Canada. Canada is a big tribe because the Canadian state is the one that provides you with health insurance. They have set up insurance, damaged insurance to pay. And if you kill someone by mistake, your insurance pays, i.e. your tribe. And I think that’s the best way I could describe what a tribe. I think it’s… How many people would compose the tribe that you belong to? How large was it about? I don’t have any scientific number, but I would say when I was growing up, I would like randomly say 100,000. And how many tribes are there in Mauritania? Do you know? A lot of tribes in all shapes and forms. Not only the warrior tribe, you have the warrior tribe, you have the book tribe, i.e. the Zawaya, and you have the almost serving tribes, like the tribe who provide services, like artists. This is like almost an independent tribe. And all they do is just like entertainment. And you have, unfortunately, I have to admit, we had slaves. They just like serve, you know, you own them and they serve you. In, I think, 81, this was abolished, you know, but we need to face up to this horrific past. And just… Well, we all have a lot of horrific past to face up to. Yes, unfortunately. Yes, unfortunately. Well, hopefully we can do better. That’s the plan, right? So, all right, so you got on the plane and you read the Quran on the plane and you made it to Germany. You must have, it’s no wonder you were afraid. I mean, what did you think was waiting for you there? So I had no clue, you know, I like surprises because when I was sitting like with one of the people in the studio, and then someone asked me, so what are you going to talk to Jordan about? I said, I have no clue. And then he said, and I said, I don’t care, whatever. And I like surprises and I’m very curious, you know, just like you. And so we arrived in Paris because I had to change the… There was no direct flight to Frankfurt. So I changed the… The first thing I saw in Paris, and I’m ashamed to say this, everything was clean. And everybody was wearing very tight clothes and everything was in place. And the women were wearing very nice clothes. Everything was in… And of course, that was the impression. Later on, I noticed that the clothes are really not very comfortable, you know, for some reason, because the boo boo and the African blue clothes were worn for a reason. And so I took my plane. I had… I had… I had 80… I had in my pocket about $12,$ 12 or $13. T ha t^{'} s t h e m o n ey t ha t m y f ami l y g a v e t o m e a s a p oc k e t m o n ey .$ 12 or 5,000. If I remember correctly, a lot of money. And that’s it. That was the phone call. He sent me the money and I took it physically and I gave it to some of the people who come back and forth, do commerce in Germany. I know. But there was a problem with this phone call. This phone call was conducted from a mobile satellite phone that belonged to the late Usama bin Laden. And my brother-in-law was a close friend to Usama bin Laden. So the American. You know, put one and one together and they assumed that I was up to no good because Usama bin Laden back then already declared war against the United States against innocent people of the United States. I was not aware of any of these. No, I was aware of the problem. And when they investigated when I was taken into custody, but no, no, I’m forwarding really too fast. So they. So the money was sent to you and you distributed to some people to get it to your friend’s father. That’s that’s what happened. Correct. That’s it. So the money trail was very clear where the money landed because I was not the only person he contacted that day. He did two phone calls. I know of he contacted me and he contacted the person who would receive the money in in Mauritania. Do you think he had any sense that he was putting you in danger? To be perfectly honest. It’s very hard to to read what was in his mind, but he put me he completely changed my life in a very negative way. Right. Well, you did say that his father was ill. And so obviously he was at least in principle motivated to help his father. So perhaps that was obscuring his vision. I mean, did he know that that did he do you think he knew that there was a possibility that using telecommunication equipment that was associated with bin Laden might not be such a good thing for you? I mean, maybe he didn’t. I’m just curious what you think. He took very. He did not consult me, so he made this decision for me, that’s for sure. And I don’t think that he thought that the phone was even tapped. Right. But he did it now that some people who were sitting with the sample and day in, day out were working with the CIA. Very close, very close friends of some laden were transmitting information to the CIA, you know, and he was very blinded, I guess. And I have to mention he was investigated and he’s now Freeman and they did not find any any connection with him and any like wrongdoing. I see. He was just associate of some laden. They were. I see. He was just associate of some laden. They were like friends, but he did not engage with him in any of in any in any attacks or anything. So I just need to mention that. OK, now you also mentioned that you were married. So you got married in Germany. Yes, my wife, my ex-wife is a Palestinian German. And. You know, at that. And I wasn’t like doing well in my marriage, so I have to say that. And, you know, I don’t know whether you ever found yourself in a relationship where you don’t want to get out of it because you don’t want to bear the shame of being the person who is responsible for breaking up, you know, the relationship. But you didn’t want the relationship somehow. I was in that very bad situation. Right. So you had a couple of things that weren’t going so well. So you were you were depressed about your situation in Germany and your marriage wasn’t going well. And then this phone call came and you transmitted the money. What happened after that? Everything went downhill. So this was like late 98, early 99. So the police, I was not arrested. I was never interrogated. I was never held. I was never invited by the police. Never. So German found no ground to arrest me or to even question. But they went to our Imam that is like the priest, the equivalent of a priest in church. And they found so they made an appointment with the Imam and they told him this one of the people who come to your mosque is being investigated. And then he was laughing. And when they showed him the picture, he would he told me later on, he said, this guy wouldn’t hurt a fly. I know him very well. They said that’s maybe we may even agree with you. But a very powerful country is interested in him. And this was like almost a tip off that I should be careful not to travel. But I freaked out. And then I had a friend. You heard this from the Imam? Did he tell you this had happened? And so what did you think when he told you that? Actually, I wasn’t surprised because my family already called me. Because when I was called this, he also called my other cousin who would receive the money. My cousin was arrested immediately and put in prison for two months. So my family knew that he was being wanted. He was wanted. And they told me never to receive any phone calls from him. And they told me never to receive any phone calls from him and not to accept his phone call and not to accept to interact with him. So I wasn’t surprised. Actually, right. You knew something was up and not something good. Yes, yes. And who got it? Sorry, who got arrested? Was it the person you delivered the money to or the person who sent the money? No, the person who whom I delivered the money to. I was person was never arrested ever. And was the person who received the money arrested in Germany? No, no, no, no, no. Germany is a country ruled by law. They don’t arrest you. He was arrested in Mauritania because at least back then it was it didn’t respect the proper legal procedure. And because the U.S. government sent two notices, one to Mauritania and one to Germany. Germany says we cannot arrest him without evidence. We can, I said, we arrest him. That’s the difference. So you received the money in Germany. Did you give the money to this person in Germany and then he went back to Mauritania? No, I sent I sent it to him. So I sent him to what they call loosely how well it so you give to a person in Germany. And the person person called his family or his associates to give the money in Mauritania because I see. Yeah, they change. No, they change money. Currency. Okay. So you used a service that moved money. Yes, absolutely. Okay. So I freaked out and I said I need to leave Germany. I cannot live in a place where people think I’m a bad person. And then, you know, I did. So my friend lived in Montreal. So Mohsin, his name is Mohsin. He’s my he’s five years my senior. He finished his study at the same university. We became very good friends and he moved to Canada and he was working and living in Canada. He was Canadian. He became Canadian citizen when I arrived. And he told me Canada is a very good country. You have what you study is very wanted and you can apply. And I applied. I had this as a plan B and I was accepted right away, you know, because they need a lot of IT people and so on and so forth. And then I said I’m moving to Canada joining my friends. And in November of 99, I purchased one way ticket and I moved to Canada. As luck had it, in December 15 of December, a person by the name of Ahmed Rasam tried to cross the Canadian-U.S. border with explosives and harm innocent people. So Americans said, OK, what’s going on? So this guy had a phone call from Usama bin Laden’s phone. And he came to Canada one month later, a guy who attended this mosque. And a one way ticket. Yeah, one way ticket. And they made this very wild theory based on circumstances that was very wild and very harming to me. And this called me the mastermind of a millennial plot. And of course, they told Canadian. Canadian were very worried, obviously, but Canadian could not arrest me because there was no evidence, obviously, because I don’t know the guy. I never heard of him. I never met him. And let alone like conspiring with him to harm innocent people in the U.S. And so they assumed that you were associated with this with this person who had been bringing explosives in that. I was the mastermind. I see you had planned that. And this was your next step, was it? Correct. Yes, correct. And so Canadian, but Canadian did not arrest me, but they were very aggressive. They put like listening device in the apartment where I lived and they spied on my conversation. I would know that later on in Guantanamo Bay because I was faced with my phone calls in Montreal. Confronted, I mean. And so American, like I said, this guy is very smart. He does not leave any trail. This guy, he speaks like German, Arabic, French, and he’s engineer and he’s not going to leave a trail. So we need we need to lure him to a place where there is no law because we cannot arrest him in Canada. We cannot arrest him in the U.S. We cannot arrest him in Canada because in Germany, because because we don’t have the evidence. He needs to provide the evidence himself. So they assumed you were an engineer, that you were multilingual, that you had purchased a one way ticket to Canada, that you were associated with Bin Laden, that you were tangled up with this previous terrorist that was all part of the and that you were and that you were smart enough to cover your tracks. Yes. And I needed to be arrested and to be roughed up, quote unquote, in order to tell them everything. And people were freaking out. And, you know, I am I’m very sympathetic to law enforcement, you know, especially in democracies who try to protect people. And and I could see the logic behind everything. What I couldn’t see is like treating someone outside the rule of law because Canada is advanced, Canada is safe because of the rule of law. In the Middle East, countries are either failing or failed countries because the lack of the rule of law, because ironically, those gloves, the gloves of the law are the one that keep countries safe and prosperous. So Canadian intelligence, American intelligence and retain intelligence agreed to an operation that would have me lured outside of Canada and kidnapped. So the retaining intelligence approached my mother and they said, Mohammed is in a lot of trouble in Canada and you need to call him back home. And so we could like we could like clear his name and he could go back to Canada and work just like anyone. And who made that claim? Sorry, who was who contacted your mother? The retaining intelligence, the more training intelligence. OK, correct. Or the lack thereof. So and. And so my mother, you know, she was a Bedouin and she had understanding that the state. You know, we should abide the state, you know, especially in the military, like I grew up in a military dictatorship and we were very scared, very afraid. And whatever happens, she did not understand Canada is a country ruled by law. And I shouldn’t be afraid to be in Canada. So she said, whatever happens to me is better to happen within and to happen in Canada because all countries are the same. And so she called me, said, I’m sick. You need to get home. I purchased my ticket the next day and I I left Canada on January 20th of 2000. I arrived in Dakar, Senegal, where my family waited on me on 21st, January 21st, 2000 from the airport. I was kidnapped. And interrogated in Senegal. And who picked you up? Who kidnapped you? And why do you use that phrase specifically? I don’t know. I guess. OK, OK, OK. I guess why did I use it? So. I think it would end up in a kidnapping because of what, of course, of what I’m going to tell you. So Senegalese told me we are ratio. We are ratio in the name of law. And was that it? Oh, no, they are law. We are ratio in the name of the law. That was very OK with me. Very good. They took me to prison and they interrogated me. And then they said there is no evidence against you. They told me. So you’re free to go. Americans said he cannot go. They put me in a plane against my will. The Americans, they tried to. So you got freed from the Senegalese prison. Yes. Were you were you reunited with your family? What happened? What what what was the sequence of events? So America. So Senegalese told me how many do you free to go? We have nothing against you. So Americans in the embassy, they ask them not to release me because they want me. So they sent a car, you know, SUV from the embassy and the embassy took my custody. And what did they tell you when they picked you up? No, no talking, nothing. I was just put in chains and they took me. They chartered the plane. They sent me to Mauritania. So what did you think was going on? I I I was thinking they want to torture me because they want me to. Yes, yes. Because they didn’t want me to go back to Canada because they went so far. I went so far I couldn’t go back because Canada was like a protection for me, a protection for quote unquote bad guy. This is a bad guy and they need to crack. He need to tell us what did you know? It was Americans that had picked you up when you got into the SUV. Yes, yes, yes. I know because Senegalese told me Americans are the one who sent the report. Are the one who asked them to arrest me. We need to understand that Senegal is a democracy and it’s ruled by law. So and but it’s not strong enough to oppose the encroachment of American embassy. So they were they are not so as strong as Canadian institution because in Canada, the US embassy cannot take people because that would be in a breach of grave. A breach of Canadian laws. So so many people would get in trouble, you know, but anyway. So they put me that plane, very small. And the it was so small that I could see the pilot. The pilot was a female, a French female pilot and she was just like a taxi. Taxi driver with small plane and she just charter her small plane, you know, to move people who are, you know, from one place to the other. And I prayed and I almost was fantasizing that the plane crash and that I survived the crash because. I don’t like pain and I read so much about torture and I don’t like torture. So I was delivered to the Mauritanian. Did you do you have any sense at that point of why you were in trouble? I didn’t know. I didn’t know, but I kind of. Of. I kind of know because Canadian came to my home and they they told me they interrogated me about Ahmed Rasna, but they didn’t. I see, I see. Right, right. And you knew also that there had been some trouble around the money transfer. And did you know at that point of this association with Obama bin Laden? No, no, nothing. Nothing yet. OK, no, no, no, no, no mentioning given of the name of my former brother in law. And so. I. So. So I just was I cannot describe to you. The pain of the prospect of being tortured, I cannot describe. What were you imagining? What did you think was going to happen? I was very serene. And. I was thinking like existential like question. Because like. My one of my bodyguard seems to be very religious person because he kept like praying in the plane. And I was asking myself, what is the role of religion? To how how much can a religious person do? You know, and where does a religious person say? I’m not doing this. I’m stopping. And this was like too much like to think about because a guard cannot has to trust somehow the state because he doesn’t know who I am. You know, as far as they’re concerned, like his boss told him this is a vicious person. He was planning to kill random people, children, women, old people, young people randomly at an airport in the US. So and. And I was seeing my city, the city of New York, and I could see the the the the palette after a storm, a sandstorm. You know, the colors and people very tiny walking and the favelas, you know, where I grew up, I could see everything. And the helplessness, you know, of me not being able to be happy because in like five minutes I would walk out of the plane, greeting my family, drinking tea, telling them stories. I knew I was going to a prison cell. I was almost certain I would be tortured. And I was thinking, what does it feel like to be tortured? I don’t know. But I read books and and I was thinking about the brave people who survived torture. And I knew Jordan, I was not a brave person because I want to crack at the very first moment. You know, I did not want to resist because the pain, you know, I love this saying Jordan, the most powerful weapon. Of your oppressor is in your mind. You’re right. Yes. Well, that’s why I was asking you what you were imagining, you know, because I was the terrible. I was absolutely defeated and the pain I felt in my stomach, in my abdomen. And I felt like in my in my mouth, very like very bitter taste in my mouth. And, you know, the helplessness, you know, I mean, Jordan, you have to appreciate where you live. You have to appreciate that you grew up in a democracy and you take it for granted that no. No one can take you without giving you a reason why they take it to the police. And you have a big mouth. You can say, no, I need a lawyer. I don’t need to talk to you. And you can like start and develop your narrative with your lawyer, everything, you know, to save yourself. None of that. So in a country that is not ruled by law, you have none of these rights, you know. So they took me in. In. Renold 12 from airport, very old and, you know, we’re like Bedouin and they want to put a mask over my face. So I couldn’t see they didn’t have a mask prepared. And then one of them gave me his turban that he used on his head. He said, you need to wrap this turban around your head very tightly. And I could smell his sweat. You know, and so they took me to a secret prison and they start interrogating me. And so and like my past start to come out. So in my past, in 91 between 1992, I spent a couple of months on two different occasions in Afghanistan. They came to our mosque and they wanted like to gather like money. And so it was a very big like thing in Germany. And this was a campaign that was that was supported by Germany, supported by the US, by my government, by Canada, by the US to help the so-called Mujahideen. And I was very young. I said, oh, I need to be part of this. And I went there and I didn’t like it. And then I left. But this was nonetheless something I told them. I’m sorry I went there. And so after one month of interrogation, Mauritanian they did not torture me. They did not torture me. And did anything else come to light during that interrogation that cast you in a bad light? That was hard on your reputation? No, nothing, nothing, because it turns out Mauritanian knew that I went to Afghanistan because they it’s in my passport because I want there is a stamp in my passport. So they knew that. And what only came to light was that that I don’t know. They told me like American wouldn’t provide them any evidence. And they were stuck because because Mauritanian told Americans to take me. But Americans refused. And Mauritanian like were actually breaking the law by offering me because you cannot turn over Mauritanian citizens once they hit the Mauritanian ground. So you have to try them if they did any crimes, no matter what. So why do you think you were tortured? Was it a standard practice there or not? And if so, why did you escape torture? OK, you see, like intelligence, like in authoritarian regime, they don’t just jump on you and torture you. They have to have good reasons. So we have to be very objective when we describe things. So they told me if I don’t cooperate with them, they will torture me. If there is evidence, they have to know I’m hiding something. But Americans wouldn’t provide them any evidence that I’m hiding anything that I didn’t tell them. And I adamantly told them that I had no clue about Millian Platt. I don’t know Ahmed Rassam. I never met him. And American wouldn’t give them any evidence to the contrary. So they were somewhat inclined to believe you. They did believe me. They did believe me. And they told the American either you give us the evidence or we’re going to release him. And then American asked them a favor. They said, OK, take away his passport and don’t let him go back to Canada. Mauritanian intelligence, as usual, ever breaking the law. They took my passport and they did not allow. And Canadians also asked them not to allow me to travel back to Canada because Canadians found them in a very hard spot. Because Canada is very close to the US. And they just don’t want any trouble with their big brother, which is understandable. And I said to myself, OK, they took my passport. I went there. I went to I applied for a job and I found a very good job as a programmer and administrator. And I started like writing code. And until 9-11 happened, I was arrested, kidnapped. And that’s it. And tortured. All right. So you’re in Mauritanian. They let you out. You’ve been imprisoned there, but you have a story and the Mauritanians accept the story. What happens after that? So they told me I cannot travel because they did not want to travel. And I said, OK, I just find a job in Mauritania. You know, my dream, my dreams of studying for my PhD in Canada were dashed. I said, it’s OK. You know, I need to work anyway. And then I found a job in Mauritania. And I start start feeding my family for like over a year until 9-11 happened. And everything changed. So you’re in Mauritania. 9-11 happens, but you’re working and you’re taking care of your family in Mauritania. And so 9-11 happens. And what happens to you? What’s the consequence of that? On 29th of September, that is about a little bit over two weeks after 9-11, I received a phone call again from the police, Mauritanian police. And then they said, we need to talk to you. I said, OK. The guy said, where are you? I said, where are you? I’m coming to you. And they said, OK, I’m at this and that place. And then I drove my car and met him. And he was very frank. He told me, American told us to arrest him. I said, why don’t you tell them that I didn’t do anything? He said, they’re very angry because of 9-11 and just bear with me. They just will ask you some questions. They will let you go. And then they came and they brought German translator. And then they interrogated me. I don’t know who interrogated me. So a guy, maybe CIA, maybe FBI, maybe I don’t know. And where did that take place? In Mauritanian prison. And they left. And then again, Mauritanian released me. And then after one month, they took me again. They took me again. And then they told me that American wants me in Jordan. And I lost it. I lost it. I said, this is too much because I guess American figured out this is his home. This is his tribe. And this is a corrupt regime. Maybe they’re protecting him. We need to take him outside of his comfort zone where he has no tribes. And we torture him. And then he will tell us everything. And that’s exactly what happened. So they took me to the airport. Now, was that Mauritanians or Americans that took you to the airport? Mauritanian. So you’re taken to the airport? Yes. And they put me in a plane with five people. Two sex people. Two pilots. Because they, two pilots and two interrogators and two people with masks. I couldn’t, they didn’t talk. They just with masks. Like kind of commandos, special team. And so when they took me. What were you thinking on this plane? What? What should I? It’s just so much pain. I just died a thousand times. You know, I know I was going to torture. I know 100% I was going to go. And the ride was about 12 hours. And one of the station, one of the airplane, one of the airport was in Cyprus. Cyprus is part of the European Union. And the signatory of a convention against torture, just like Mauritania. And I was hoping that they would board the plane and inspect the people. Passports and everything. Because for an African guy to get a visa to Europe, it’s almost like next to impossible. But now I’m going through Europe without even a passport. And I want to be arrested as a criminal and put in prison. You know? And this never happened because everybody was on it. And I say, Jordan, this is one of the biggest of the biggest betrayal of US citizens. United States stood with Europe against the national socialism. And Europe after 9-11 enabled the United States to gravely violate human rights instead of standing up to the government and say, no, American people deserve better. And America is better than doing this. America is ruled by the law. America should lead the world in human rights and should not violate human rights. Because this would open a can of worms and would give like a cart blotch to all those horrific regimes to do whatever they wanted. And I landed in Jordan. And then I was put in this secret prison. And most of the time, I didn’t know day from night. I was beaten only two times during eight months. But the thing that hurt me so much when they took me to listen to torture sessions, they blindfolded me. They put me in a room. They start torturing this person. You know, for me to break. And I could do you think that was that tape? Do you think or was it something that was happening right there? Do you think Jordan? I didn’t know. I mean, yes, very smart question. Smart question. But I mean, it doesn’t matter really from your perspective when you’re there because but I’m curious, I suppose, about the methods. Yes. Yes. I mean, it’s horrific. The problem that the problem with that, I couldn’t get the cries of my head. So they put me back in my cell. I couldn’t sleep. I couldn’t sleep for this. And then I would like plug my ears. And then I hear even louder when I plug my ears. You know, the more I plug my ears, the more I hear it because it’s in the brain. And the brain does not need your eyes or your ears to see or hear, you know, because the brain how often were you exposed to that sort of thing? I remember like. Maybe a dozen, but I was only moved twice. So I have a question for you. If you had to be beaten or you had to listen to people being tortured, I know this is a terrible question, but it speaks to the intensity of listening to people being tortured. Which of those was more torturous? Listening. Absolutely. No question asked. Yes, because when they start beating me. OK, a lot of anxiety and a lot of inside pain goes away. Because my body is weak. And the problem is to have like strong body and destroyed soul. Because somehow the soul and body has to be balanced out. So if you like, if you threat, threaten me. And then you put me in a situation, especially if you have power over me, put me in a situation that is so painful and I I’m eating myself from inside. But when you beat me and then you cause me pain. And that pain. This is horrible to say, but it’s good for me to. Because it weakens my sharpness of my mind to. To process the perceived pain that I may be. I see. It’s like when you have depression and when you walk or when you work out, work out just torturing yourself and then it goes dissipate somehow. So how long were you in prison in Jordan? Very good question. So I tried to keep like to keep a calendar in my head. So I say one, two, three. I wasn’t bad. So when when they told me you are going out. I. I. They gave me a paper to sign. I was expecting. July 31st, 2002. I saw the paper July 20 or 21st. I don’t remember. I was completely off, you know, because nights and days for somehow. The somehow mixed with each other. I don’t know why, but you said you weren’t sleeping well, and that’s not surprising. And so that could easily. I mean, and you’re and I presume how much time did you spend outside? Maybe 20 minutes. Or 25 minutes outside. Per day or in total? No, in total. So never really. Yes. And what did your family outside? And I was so scared because. You know, you are so vulnerable when you are exposed to torture. Because you feel like I want my torture. I want to be close to my son. I want my torture to be to be satisfied. You know, I want to put me in this cell because that’s what satisfies them. You know, I don’t want to be in a big space, you know. And it’s very weird to explain, you know, because I saw this torture has a godlike power. You know, they give you food. They talk to you. They said, if you are a good guy, I’m going to treat you well. If you are a bad guy, I’m going to punish you. This is immediate, immediate power. You know. And. Yes, so. So I want to tell you this epiphany a little bit because. And because it’s very important to understand like this kind of forgiveness. That’s I really have in my heart. So they came to me. I was very weak after eight months of battering. Eight months of mind destruction, mind and body. I was very weak. I was about. Less than 100 pounds and I’m 171 or 172 centimeter. And less than 100 pound is really very skinny. So. I was very weak. I was very weak. Skinny. So. I saw they they gave me this guy throw. A bag garbage bag in my cell said, you’re going home. Then I took the bag. I had very small belonging like this big like. Like. Underwear and I think I had a T-shirt. That’s it. And then he told me to turn around. Ironically, that’s a sign of respect to give your back side to the guard. Because he wants to control you. And put your hands behind your back and shackle him. And then he led me always blindfolded. I was never led to see anything except when they push me inside the cell. Then they they they remove the. And then I sat in a chair like this facing a guy middle age guy. He looks he spoke almost like a religious figure. And it was like everybody around him was like out of focus because like a movie. You know people who cannot see them very well. My eyes were glued on him. And he was telling me, okay, this is your belonging. Okay. And I was supposed to say that he was right. I got everything back. I think I had $80 so m e t hin g l ik e t ha t or$ 100. I don’t know. And then had my Canadian driver license. German driver license passport. And he said, is this everything? Of course, I said yes. What did he expect me to say? And so this summary judgment of that would show that the prison staff was good. Was done very quickly. And what I want at that moment, I want to pee. But I couldn’t tell him I want to pee because I want to go home. And then they put me in this hearse like blindfold earmuffs, everything. Then they drove me to the airport. I could hear the roars of the engines because I was on the runway. And all of a sudden, someone start to like cut open my clothes with very sharp scissors. And then they stripped me completely naked and they put a diaper on diapers on. I figured I’m not going home. And I’m not going to another prison in Jordan. I’m going to the US. And this was like confirmed when this guy briefly removed the blindfold and opened my eyes. And I could see his blonde hair on his arm. He did not say anything. He had like a very black bag on his face mask on his face. Well, could only see the eyes and blue eyes, I presume. I don’t know if this is fake memory, but I figured he is not Jordanian. And I just imagined that this was the end of my life. Did you think at any time then that you had your hopes being raised that you were maybe going home? No, after this, I knew I was not going home. Before I meant on the way before you hit the airport. Did you think that maybe you were going to be free? I was crying all the time. And I was saying this is the first time in my life I would enjoy a bathroom in an airplane. I hate bathrooms in airplanes. And this is so good. And I would meet my family. This is so like imagination. And then I was like, but I was kind of like destroyed mentally because I was thinking, how could I live? Because I was in prison with good relationship with God. And I was like pure in my soul. And then now I’m going back to life. And in life, you have to fight with people. And then you have to do the wrongs because like occupational hazard of living your life. And then it hit me after that. I mean, after they start to put me in new clothes and diapers that I would have a very long ride. And it’s going to the US. And I figured I would die forgotten in a very violent American prison. What do you think the purpose of the diapers was? The purpose of the diapers because very long flights. And you cannot, they security, they will not take you to any place. You have to pee in your diaper. I see. I see. Okay. So this is very important because at least to my mind, because this moment changed my life forever. My life before this CIA team that took me from Jordan and after the CIA took me from Jordan are two different episodes that have very little to do with each other. And I tell you why. So when I came to the year, to the conclusion that I will die, this is it. This is my life. I started to reflect on my past and then I start to regret. And there is only one thing I regretted in my life. One single thing I regretted. I regretted not to be nice enough to people. I regretted when I told my mom, I didn’t like this food. This food is not as I expected. I regretted when I get some time, when I got some time angry and I express my anger in a very, in a less than nice way. I did not regret not having money. I did not regret not having this beautiful woman I always dreamed about. I did not regret not being in a position of power in my life. All the things that demand so much effort and work had no value to me. And the things that are so easy to do in life are the ones that matter to me. Being nice. And I took it upon myself. If Allah, God allows me to live again, I promise to be a nice person to everyone I meet. No matter what. You know? And that’s what they change in my life. Why do you think that transformation occurred then? What’s your understanding of why that occurred? This is like the first time that I really thought that I will never see life again. That I will die in an American prison. That’s then I had to face my past because that’s, you know, it’s just facing death. And it’s strange the way that facing death would make you reevaluate your life like that. No, because in some sense you think it’s a bit late, isn’t it? I mean, if you think you’re going to die, but then that all those thoughts come to mind that you could have been a better person. I know, I know. It’s like your soul is being weighed, you know, in light of your impending death and you’re evaluating your whole life. Yes, absolutely. And I mean, this is like, you know, in a very weird way, I think I’m lucky because I had the unique experience, maybe not unique, but very few people had this experience. You had it, that they faced death. And they said, what should I change in my life? What should I change in my life? And I knew what I need to change. You know, I didn’t, I know I don’t need a lot of money. Of course, I love to have money, of course, but I wouldn’t like break my back or break my head to make money. Absolutely not. But I make so much effort, painful effort to be a nice person. And it’s not easy to be a nice person. And what do you mean by being a nice person? What does that entail as far as you’re concerned? Absolutely. So when I’m upset with you or with my family, I have to control what I say. I have to control what I do because I always want to live a good taste, no matter what. Also, when someone asks me for help, I have to provide them help without hurting myself. The only way I deny help, if this help, very help, is going to hurt me. And that’s not a problem to me to deny, to not accept to help. And that’s it. Just being nice to people, making a difference, smiling to people, making them feel good. This is very important to me. You said that when you were in Germany, that you had fits, bouts of depression that were long lasting. What about now? It’s very, I’m very depressed. Like I have this PTSD like episodes that will send me to the hospital for many days and I almost died. One of the reasons for this very bad episode was taking clonopin, what they call at least in the US, clonopin. And this was started in prison because I was really, I was very much a vegetable when it comes. Then they prescribed me clonopin and then they cut it, called turkey. Yes, I have some experience with that. Yes, I read that. It’s terrible. Oh my God, you cannot explain to someone who never went to that. No, you can’t. It was absolutely unbearable. Oh my God. Oh my God. When I think about it. How long did that last? I don’t know because I didn’t have feeling for time. But the pain, I keep hitting my head against the wall. And I was crying like a child. I was crying like a child. And this was definitely a malpractice in prison because I read later on that it could kill you. It makes you wish you were dead, that’s for sure. Oh my God. It’s horrific. Like depression, you cannot describe depression to someone who didn’t go through it because I always told people, are you just a crying baby? What hurt? So do you have like injury, physical body injury? No. So why are you acting up very much? Why are you tripping? But this is when I have this episode, I cannot eat, I cannot drink, I cannot sleep. I’m so scared. I have always to have someone beside me. Watching over me. And I’m much better now. I’m much better now. But I acknowledge that I’m very vulnerable. I’m very weak. There are heavy stuff that I need to deal with with professional help and so on and so forth. So I’m not going to put a brave face and try to sell you something that is not there. Yeah. All right. So let’s go back to the plane. So you’re on the plane to the United States. Do you think you’re done? Yes, I thought it was to the United States. And then I almost died because I couldn’t pee in the in the diaper. I kept squeezing, but my head refused to pee. You know, and after what I thought five hours, the plane started to lose altitude. I was telling, no, this is not the US. US is not five hours. And then it landed. And then they took me out because I felt the wind. And then they put me in a chopper because very loud. I could hear through the air. And then they put me in a truck. And then I start hearing language I never heard before. It’s not English. It’s not German. It’s not Arabic. Turns out it’s some tribal Afghani language that I never heard. And so I landed turns out in background air base. And then they took me to this prison. And I spent that’s they started torture in that prison. And so but it’s not like very heavy. They just like keep me like on my knees for very long hours. You know, I couldn’t see. And then very much. And then they put like strobe light over my head for hours. And they first night they came to took me. No being first. So when they put me, they strip me naked. And they put me in some clothes. And I said, they set me and I peed, peed, peed, peed. Like there is no tomorrow. Then I felt so good. I didn’t care what they did to me. Because now I paid because now I felt I’m a free person. I’m surviving. And so they took me. They asked me what languages they brought Arabic translated. They asked me what language I spoke. Then I said German among others. They said German, you’re a liar because who speaks German in this world? No one. And then they brought a special agent, CIA agent who spoke German. Right then. And then he spoke to me in German. And he looked at them and said, this guy speaks German better than I. Then he looked at me. He said, Wahrheit macht frei. Truth will set you free. Truth will set you free. Because what came in my mind is the sign, Arbeit macht frei. Yes, that’s what came to my mind too. Yes. Yes. And it came to me that those people, Arbeit did not set them free. Work did not set them free. No. I know I was in big, big trouble. And then he interrogated me. He was not bad. You know, he was like, he was like, explained to me a lot of American culture and so. And he told me very much that I was screwed because in America, he told me, accusation is enough. In this, in this, in this situation of our history, he told me. Yes, that’s enough. That’s enough. You will not be free for a very long time. And you may be, he said, you may be guilty or not. I don’t know. I don’t have the information, but I can assure you that you would be treated as a guilty person. And he was very frank with me. And he. Well, the assumption would have to be on the part of the people that had now arrested you and that were bringing you back to the United States. They’re all going to assume that you’re guilty. Obviously. Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is the greatness of democracy, of the rule of law, that the state violence is kept in check. Is the state violence, violence anywhere in the world? It doesn’t matter your culture. It doesn’t matter whether you’re Christian, you’re Jewish, you’re Muslim, you’re agnostic, you’re Buddhist. Human beings always commit atrocities against other human beings. And the state has so much tools of oppression that the state cannot be, must not be just left without checks. I mean, it’s okay to say Jordan is a bad person. That’s okay to say, especially by the state. But the state cannot harm you or put you in prison if they don’t have evidence that is, that’s going to be checked by a third independent party that does not subscribe to the bureaucracy of the state. And this is like everywhere. And this obsession, you know, 9-11 was very horrific act. And let’s say that full stop. So the United States, if they had said there was a very big debate, you know, whether democracy and the rule of law can protect the United States of America. And a lot of people in the CIA, in FBI, and what’s not believed that the rule of law is not enough. They have to go outside the rule of law in order to protect the United States. And they have this obsession with dictatorial regimes from the Middle East. I know this because they told me that, you know, they don’t need the gloves. They go down and bury. And so, and I was like, oh my God, I grew up in a military dictatorship and people are not safe in a military dictatorship. Well, democracy might not be make people safe, but there isn’t an alternative that makes them more safe. So absolutely. Absolutely. And democracy is millions times safer than dictatorships, you know, because in a dictatorship, there is no way around corruption. There is no way around corruption, you know, in a dictatorship, you know, and the corruption would hit also the security apparatus, you know, and I know this because I could see the contrast where I grew up during military rule and Germany. Germany, you can walk any time you want. No one is going to hurt you. No one is. And in Germany, you know, no one can arrest you without due process. And this whole like obsession that, you know, we need to treat people outside the rule of law. That’s how we protect. I say this is wrong. And this is just an opinion. This is not the scientific. I don’t have a scientific, but I would say it’s wrong. And the empirical evidence is in the in the what we see, the Western democracies are much safer than any other country in the Middle East. So back to the helicopter. I was taken out of the aircraft and put in a chopper. And I have to mention that the CIA did not torture me during the trip from Jordan. No, this guy was very gentle. He didn’t hurt me. And that wouldn’t be the role in the future, because in Guantanamo Bay and in in Bagram, in Bagram, every move, the guards who moved me, they roughed me up and they they use, you know, the move from one place to the next to inflict pain on me, like pinching me or dragging me, you know, or run away. And they know I cannot run because I have shackles on my feet. But this all happened, I think, on the instructions of my interrogators. So anyway, so they took me and I peed for the first time on my knees. And that felt really, really good. I didn’t care about anything else. And I was stripped naked again. And then they took a hair, you know, from my hair, you know, and they interrogated me. The first interrogation didn’t seem, they didn’t seem to be very well informed about who I was. They just had the script. It was like, where is Usama bin Laden? Where is Mullah Omar? Mullah Omar is the former president of the Taliban. And they didn’t know that I was in a prison. I wasn’t out there. I wasn’t picked up from a battlefield. So I had no clue. And where did that interrogation take place? Right when I was taken out of the chopper. And so interrogation was done. They took me, put me in an isolation cell. This woman came to me. She said, if you want to go to the bathroom, I remember this. You can ask this person because there was no bathroom in myself. And, you know, like, I didn’t speak English. And bathroom sounded like bad et semen, like just literal translation. But in German means something else. It means a place where you take a bath. And I was thinking, oh, my God, those people are so nice. I really want to take a bath. I said, I want to go to the bathroom. And they took me to a barrel full of human feces and just, you know, put in a place. And they said, this is the bathroom. So they didn’t have like they didn’t have like bathrooms like they have just like barrels. And then the detainees would do the barrels. And it’s very tricky because it’s hanging. It’s like it’s like very high, high up. And then that was my first English, you know, real English word. So that bathroom is not a place to take a bath. And I was taken to Guantanamo Bay, and it was very torturous. I mean, they, you know, again, so we were put in the same shackle. We were about 34, I think, detainees. There was a shackle that, you know, connected all of us. And they start processing us, blindfold, all kinds of shackles, and put us in the plane. And I couldn’t breathe because I have claustrophobia. I almost died, you know, and this guy came to me and he told me, forget about it. I never forget this. And it was like, okay, either I survive or I die. So I’m not going to get any relief because I wanted him to remove the mask on my face because I couldn’t breathe because of the mask. You know, just like this, this, this Corona mask, you know, but I couldn’t breathe with it. You know, I think mostly because of my claustrophobia. And we arrived in Guantanamo Bay after, I think, more than 30 hours. And it was like, oh my God, I was so happy that I arrived somewhere because so much pain, you know, everywhere. And they put me, like, they pushed me, you know, in what seemed like open space. And then I felt the sun. And then, you know, I was like, you know, this is, you know, this is much better. In my mind, now I’m under the full authority of the United States. No more. So you were 30 hours in transport before then? You thought you thought it was about that? I think it was more. Yes. What kind of transport was it? Were you, you said you were on a plane? Yes. And the plane changed places. I think. Change place and stop somewhere, you know, I stopped somewhere once or twice. Right. So it wasn’t a direct flight? No, no, no, it wasn’t. And so I arrived. So we started off in the morning of 4th of August, 2002. August, 2002. And we arrived the next day, 4th of August, 5th of August. And they processed us. And I remember this gentleman came in, coming to me and he, he spoke in Russian to me. And I didn’t speak any Russian. And then, you know, we were all naked because they stripped us in the room. And those like, you cannot get those images out of your head. You know, you are naked watching naked people around you, you know, and this guy looked at me. I was smiling all the time, you know, and this guy looked at me and said, where did they capture you? I remember this question and I didn’t understand it. He, I kept said, what? He kept said, where did they capture you? And then he was very frustrated with me. And then he said, never mind, something like never mind. And then, ah, then I said, home, something like that. And because I was captured, home. And the last thing I saw when the police came to me was the image of my mother as we draw off away with the police. I saw her in the rear view mirror because I was driving my car and a policeman sat beside me. And she was getting smaller, smaller, smaller until I turned right. And then she disappeared. At that point, I did not think that I would never see my mother again, but I never saw my mother again. I was never allowed to attend her funeral. I was never allowed to say goodbye to my mother. And so we arrived and my first interrogation, they put me in a room. And, you know, I was like being kind of demanding because I thought, oh, this is a cell. And I said, but this cell is small, but it was really big, big room. You know, human beings are very, you know, they always like, compare. And I thought this is like very small room. Then I tried to stand up and discover my surroundings. There was no one. And then I was dragged really forcefully down. And then I saw there is a bolt holding me to the ground. I was not aware of. And then I realized I’m not free in this room. I cannot move around. Then these two gentlemen, three gentlemen came in the room. One is Bill. He said his name is Bill and he’s from the FBI. He was about my age, you know, 30, about early 31. And another person by the name of Paul, his name is Paul. I know his name. And then another person. Do you can remember these, these details? And then I translated from Morocco because I didn’t speak English. And then they came to my room and then they started asking me questions. And then Paul had an empty water bottle and he kept spitting in it. And I was saying, what does he spit? And then it was like very disgusting and black. And then later on, I learned this is normal in the U.S. You know, I was like looking at the U.S. as very sophisticated people. They have like, you know. So he was chewing tobacco. Yes, he was chewing tobacco. They were spitting in front of everybody. And everybody could see the disgusting like spits, very thick, very black. And I know I’m not sophisticated. I know my people are not sophisticated. I know that because that’s where I grew up. But my image of Americans because of the movies, very sophisticated, you know, very like clean, very organized. That was my first glimpse. I know they are just like other human beings. And I was just waiting on the other FBI guy to pick his nose because that’s the next level, you know, spitting in a bottle. You need to pick your nose to complete the picture. And they didn’t do anything. They asked me whether I was mistreated in Jordan. I said, I don’t want to answer that question. And that was for a couple of reasons. I didn’t want to tell them that it’s possible to torture me. I didn’t want them to know it’s normal. And the second thing, I didn’t want them to trick me into giving them details. You know, I just want to keep it very, very brief with them. So no information about that torture. They said it’s not necessary. But they told me in the United States, we don’t torture people. And I was very happy because that’s what I thought, too, because I watched Married with Children, a comedy. It was very funny. And I watched Law and Order back home. So this is America, funny and the rule of law. And so they kept this interrogation like almost on a daily basis. But I wasn’t confessing to any amazing stuff. They were not discovering anything. And that was very frustrating for them. So they commanded of the base. And other people demanded that I need to be put in a program to encourage me to cooperate with them. I was blissfully unaware. But in Washington, they were devising a program of torture, so-called enhanced interrogation technique that was devised just for me. You know, and I don’t know everything is in there, but I think it’s a document that is accessible. But what I received was sexual assault. I mean, full physical contact. It’s not like dirty talking or that. Because that happened, too. But I mean direct, you know, like sexual assault, rape. And that was really bad. And then the first 70 days when they took me, I remember the first day. So the FBI came to me on 22nd of May, 2002. And the FBI guy, no, 2003, sorry, my bad. And the FBI guy, his name was Rob Seidler, Robert Seidler. He gave me a book called America and its People. It’s about the history of America, you know. You know, it’s, you know, and I love history. And it helped me also. And had you learned to speak English by that point? Yes, a little bit with very heavy accent, but I understood almost everything I read because of my French vocabulary. And I like to read a lot, especially in prison when you have whenever they give you something, I keep reading it. So I read this American and its People many times. Like it’s very academic. And so and he told me, this is the last day, his boss told him that I was not giving him the information. And he told me that my life was going to change and that he wants me to cooperate with the next thing. And so later on, I think one month, so they tried to another team tried to intimidate me everything like military and other undefined agencies. But I told them, no, I’m not talking to you anyway. So you can do whatever you want, kind of. Was very defined, kind of very stupid from and. Well, what would have been your alternative? What else could have you done? Do you think was there was there anything else other than? I mean, if if you had nothing to confess, it’s not that straightforward to cooperate. Obviously. Yes, it’s impossible. Then you do it, then you don’t. Because, look, I thought about this a lot, because if you confess. Without torture. That’s very heavy burden. I had to wait on torture because that’s the only way you could. And this is hindsight. You could explain I didn’t do this. This is torture, you know. So. I was very scared, but I kept saying you need to tell me what I did, and then I can cooperate with you as long as you don’t tell me I’m not going to cooperate. And I was very like measured and logical. And defiant and even smart kind of. Smart with them. I can tell you, for instance, they tell me, ask me like FBI ask me question. Even before the program. OK, they asked me the same question next day. And I say, you asked me yesterday and I answered. Then they would say, but we want to make sure are not lying. And I would say, I remember all the lies I said since I left home. I was comfortable enough to. Let out my frustration with them. You know, this this going to change dramatically. So. They came to me, the guards. And then they came in front of myself on Mike Black. And they said reservation. That’s the code word that you are going to be taken away. That’s the code word that you are going to be taken away. And. I said, well, because usually they tell you interrogation or medical or something. So why they take me? They told me it’s none of your business. And I knew I was in trouble. And then so they had these these rubber rubber gloves. And then when they start put me in shackle. I read on the rubber glove India block. And then I told the tennis, my code, the tennis, I’m going to be taken to India. India black is torture block. So we know that because there was only the block was designed for 30 detainees. But there was only one detainee. They take only one or two detainees for torture. So they and so when they took me there, I found one detainee. And soon that detainee was taken away. So I was by myself. They the first 70 the first 70 days in that block, no sleep. So and you would ask how how how could you sleep sleep is just sleep, you know. So the way they did it interrogation 24. So they have like three shifts. So one interrogator, then the next interrogator, then the next interrogator. Just like, you know, like convey a belt in a car industry plan. And how do they keep you awake? I mean, after a couple of days, you must have been like falling asleep at every second. Correct. Correct. So they put me back in myself. And then they they let me lie down and then the guard keeps banging every like one hour or so. They come and beg at my door. And it’s so cold you cannot sleep because freezing cold in the cell. And I didn’t have proper clothes. So it was to be honest, the recollection is really hazy because I was not in the state of mind to remember. I may have very false a lot of false memories, but I can only tell you the best of my guests. What went on and later on, they made very efficient methods that most efficient. I know this is bad because other people would like to torture people. They would know this, but I can tell you very efficient. Every hour they wake me up and they make me drink water every hour. Wake you up, make you drink water. You can never sleep when someone does this to you because you will always go to the bathroom. Continuously, you will like be half asleep, go to the bathroom, half asleep, go to the bathroom, half asleep, go over and over and over. The only method they didn’t do to me and they got told me about it because I confess. I falsely confess was shower. He told me and the other day they put him under the shower and they turn on the shower 24 seven. I wasn’t looking forward to that. So I didn’t know because I kept negotiating my torch. I kept telling them I’m dying. And actually it was true because good man died and other detail. This is on record. Good man. You can look it up. He died in the cold room. He couldn’t take it because hypothermia set in and they found him dead in his cell. And so the room was artificially cooled. Yes. Yes. But I have to say this. They didn’t like bring to my mind, they didn’t bring like special equipment to cool it down. They just like completely cranked up the AC to its fullest. You know, because the AC was not designed to kill people. But I do believe that where you grow up, I’m sure a Canadian will not die under an AC, but a Mauritanian like me growing up in the desert. It’s very harmful to them because my body is not used to this type of temperature. And I kept telling them you are killing me. I mean, and I remember this doctor, because when I say like these things, I’m saying with love, because I know American people are good people, just like any like Canadian, like Mauritanian, by and large are good people. And I remember this doctor, I think he’s a commander or in the Navy. He was a doctor. And part of the program, torture program, I’m not allowed to take medication, okay, for pain relief, because that would defeat the purpose of the torch. But I was really very sick because of my sciatic nerve. And they took me to this doctor, commander. He has a leaf, I think they call it a commander. And he looked at them, he said, remove the shackles. And then they removed, he said, do not give me the tennis with shackle on my table, something like that. He was very upset. And then I saw my window. I said, oh, this is a good guy. I need to complain. You know, I was like drowning and I was just seeing anything. I said, I’m really doing, I’m having so much pain. I really needed to talk to them to stop this. He told me I cannot. He told me that he cannot interfere with interrogation, you know, but he would write a report that I’m really very sick. And he did write the report. And the reason why I know he did because years later on, my interrogators found the report in their discovery. Discovery means when your lawyer asks for secret documents, you know, related to your case. But I was just like doing nothing. They just, I let them do their things. I’m not talking to them, nothing, just like a stone every day. And sometimes I say a little one day, like, be nice to me, but say something that has nothing to do with anything. And one day, it was, I think, August 23rd, when I remember correctly of 2003, August 23rd. A man, a police lieutenant by the name of Richard Zulli, later on I learned he’s from Chicago and he’s very infamous because he was involved in torturing some people back in Chicago, in the US mainland. He came to me and I sat in front of him. He was very stern, very serious. And he handed me a letter from DOD and he asked me to read it. In that letter, it says that due to the lack, something like due to the lack of my cooperation, the US government has had no choice but to arrest my mother and put her in only man prison. And that they know that I was involved in millennial plot and in the atrocious acts of 9-11, et cetera, et cetera. I didn’t know how to answer, but I, because I was very scared, I told him, this is unfair. I didn’t know what to say. And he told me, we are not looking for justice. We are trying to stop people from driving planes into the buildings, something like that. I’m sure his English is much better than mine. And I was like, okay, go ahead and look for those people. So when he left, I knew I had nothing more to lose and I was ready to confess to everything and anything. But I didn’t know how. I didn’t know how to start it. But he helped me. So I don’t know, a couple of days later on, or one day, I don’t remember, I was in interrogation room with Sergeant Mary. Mary, she has her human side, even though she actively participated in torture, notably in sexual assault. She was kind of at least ambivalent about what she was doing. And these three masked men came to the room and then one of them was holding German shepherd and the other star just putting me down, beating me everywhere, like viciously beating me. And then she stood up and she was crying. She was like, why you do this? Why you do this? It was like total chaos. Then they took me out of the room, never stopped beating me until I stopped breathing because I couldn’t breathe anymore because my ribs broke. And it was like the pressure on my lungs and the pain of breathing through your broken ribs is just so painful. And I was like, all the time. And they were like making fun of this noise. I couldn’t see anything. Then they took me, they start pouring this water, forcing this salt water, my nose, my mouth. Then they give me to another team. I don’t know, three hours and then another team. And Richard Zulli stood, I could hear him. In the pause before they gave me to the next team, he was like, we appreciate the cooperation of all countries to take down the terrorists, something like that. And this guy with Egyptian accent, his English was very poor. And another guy from Syria, he only spoke Arabic. I would say Syrian accent to be precise because there was no way for me to know he is Jordanian accent. So they took me. And those people utilize a different technique. So what they did, they strapped me on a chair, very, very like strong chair. And then they put something over my body, like overall I believe. And then they start beating me, beating me until I couldn’t take anymore. They filled everything with ice, everything. Then when the ice start to melt, they come back and beat me. And they were saying that I will confess and so, and they are going to take me to Egypt and to Jordan. In my mind, I was thinking, but I’ve been to Jordan and no miracles happened. So why they take me again to Jordan. And one thing in my mind, since the Richard Zulli meeting, I want to confess. I want to say everything, but I didn’t know how to do it. Honestly, that was only my problem. So they took me around 5.30 p.m. And about 1.30 in the morning, next day, because I saw the watch of the medic as he start to treat me. So he came, they put me in a cell and the medic was masked and they say, when you’re, I can do this and that, I’m going to break your teeth. So he was part of the torture team. So much for do no harm. And so he treated me, actually. So he put like some band-aid around my ribs, a lot of it. And he gave me a lot of medication. I don’t know what it was. And then this was August 24th or 25th. I don’t remember. But the second thing- So how long had you been there by then? No, this is a new prison. So this is a new prison. The night I came, this is a new prison. So I stayed there almost until one year before my release or two years before my release. So I never… So what I remember vividly are two things. So this is August and the second thing I remember, October 10th, because I saw a watch. Again, the interrogator was sitting and then looked briefly at his watch and then I saw the date. But just before that, I was… You know, I was… I cannot describe to you how much pain I was in because I cannot… There are no words. I’m alone. I don’t know where. I don’t know days and nights. I… They start this diet manipulation. They make me… They withhold food for I don’t know how many days until I almost die. And they give me a lot of like, amary, amary me ready to eat. Very bad food, at least to me. But I cannot eat it because when I’m depressed, I cannot eat. And they give to me and they give me one minute, but they don’t respect the minute. I think they give 20 seconds and they take everything back. But I’m happy because I don’t want to see them. I don’t want… I just want like to pass and die without pain. You know, something like that. And so I start in myself to sing like Quran when they’re like to sing just to feel good like pray and so. And they came to me with force. They said if I pray again, they will beat me up. And then they force feed me when Ramadan came. They come during the day force feed me. I didn’t know it was… I know somehow it’s Ramadan, but… And actually I know somewhere during the day. I know somewhere during the day. Why? When I go to the bathroom, I look inside the bathroom and I could see the light of the day through the plumbing. So and that the time when they force feed me very little just to make sure I’m not respecting Ramadan. So that’s only I’m just trying to put you the picture that to understand how destroyed my spirit was. Then I did this prayer and I ask Allah for guidance, i.e. God, because I didn’t know what to do. And in my mind, nothing I would tell them would stop this. I called one of the guard. I don’t know their names, their masks too. And I said, I need to see Captain Collins. Richard Zulli called himself Captain Collins. That’s what he called himself. And he came to me and I told him, I want to confess. He said, okay, I will send you the people. And he sent me First Sergeant Shelley. And First Sergeant Shelley start asking me. And then I was just like, woo, no stop. Ask me, do you know like Jordan Peterson? Yes, he’s a terrorist. I know him. I saw him. He was preparing, you know, everybody I know is a bad guy. And so and then, you know, because interrogation is a technique. They don’t ask you the hard question in the beginning. They always start softly. What did you study? What did you do? They always start softly. What did you study? What school did you go to, you know, to prep you up? And then they said, everything you said is good. We appreciate your cooperation, everything. But you need to tell us something that would put you in prison. Because everything you said, America, he told me, is very liberal country. And they need hard evidence. And then he said, you were in Canada. You may have wanted to attack the CN Tower. The only problem I didn’t know what CN Tower was, nor did I know where. And then he said, like in Toronto. So then I said, yes, and it made sense to everything. So I said, okay. And he confronted me with a phone conversation I had in Canada. I think it was on 22nd Street 22nd. You know, I was living with my friend, Mohsin, because I didn’t have an apartment. This was in Montreal. Correct. I love Montreal, by the way. It’s beautiful. The streets. I never saw in my life a street that is 4,500 houses. That’s, you know, Europe, like the longest street in Germany is 150 or 200. That’s it. But I remember Jean Talon, 4,532. What kind of street is that? Like, when I say, oh, I live in Jean Talon, and my friend lives in Jean Talon. Well, you guys close. No, we are not close. So it was 22nd. And we were living. And then, you know, we like tea in Mauritania, at least this culture. We appreciate tea. And it was, I think, 9 p.m. And it was really cold. This is December, late December. And it was really cold. And I really liked tea. And this guy, our neighbor, he wants to come over and drink tea. And I said, could you please? You know, swing by the Depaner. You know, this is Depaner. It’s in Montreal. Corner store. Yes. Yeah. Could you please swing by and get us some sugar? Tea. Yeah, sugar, I think. I didn’t have sugar. And then they kept asking me. They intercept this conversation. What do you mean when you say tea and sugar? And I would say, I meant tea and sugar. Wrong answer. So in this confession, I told them that tea and sugar are explosive. So and so we just give them this nickname. That’s where I built the bomb. And they said, OK, why did you do me this? I said, this guy helped me. So everybody had a role. So now everything made sense to them because all the guys around were bad people. And now they had a job. So they gave money. We brought this from Chechen smugglers. And I put everything in the confession. And they asked me to sign the confession. And I did sign the confession. You know, and so what was happening behind the scene was I was being designated for death penalty. So and the guy who took the case was Colonel Couch, U.S. Marines. And he was like a very decent person. I mean, he said he told them this doesn’t make sense to me. He said he denied everything. And from one day to the next, he said no more denial. What’s going on? Then they wouldn’t tell him anything. And then he made an investigation on his own and he found out I was heavily tortured. And then he resigned. He resigned. And later on, they gave the case to Colonel Maurice Davis. They call him Mo Davis, Air Force Colonel. I know him. We are friends now. And he so they said, okay, we need to put this guy on lie detector. So because the team who was interrogating him, they said they have the gold nugget, a confession from a very bad guy. And the analyst said BS. He didn’t do this. This is BS. Whatever you did to him, we don’t know. But this is what he said is BS. So they came to me and they put me on this lie detector. I said, guys, I’m an engineer. I cannot go through this because I will tell the truth. And then they said, it doesn’t matter. You have to. And then I was so scared because now with the confession, I had the status of admitted criminal. And I had the right to eat. I had the right to pray. I had the right to sleep for the first time. I didn’t care what they did to me after that. And then now I was so scared to go back to torture when I deny everything. But they told me this was coming from very high level people in the government that I need. Then I remember one of the question, did you ever plot or conspire to plot against the U.S.? And I said, and Canada. And the guy told me, I don’t give a shit about Canada. I was like, good for you. In my head, because I couldn’t say that. This is like very like Americans. I’m sure you understand because you’re North American. This is very American. Because I was so happy because I was so upset with Canada, so upset. If you tell me, are you more upset that they was on Canada, I would say Canada. Because I was a landed immigrant in Canada and they scared me so much instead of protecting me. They threw me under the bus. They completely swallowed everything that came from the CIA, FBI. Or whatnot. And without doing their own investigation and say, you know what, this is a guy in our territory. And this is a guy we owe him the protection. And we need to know if he’s a bad guy, we don’t protect bad guys. But we need to understand he’s a guy. We need to find out. And so when he said that, it was like the only thing we agree on. Thank you. So and then I passed the test from like a death penalty case to someone who didn’t do anything. You know, I was sorry, let me get that clear. So you did the lie detector test and what did it reveal? It revealed that your confession was false. Everything I said that was incriminating was false. Yeah, have you ever conspired? Did you ever talk to anyone about harming the US? Never. Okay, so during the lie detector test, you told the truth about everything. I see. And so that nullified your confession. Yes, I denied everything and truthfully. So they took the test and they fought over it. They said they had one of them insisted to come next day or next week and to do again the test. They did the test again. And again, I passed the test. So all of those tests are now in my hands on my computer because my lawyer gave them to me and they were presented at the court. At my court. So and so I was there. So the torture effectively stopped. No, stopped at the end of 2000. 2000. Early 2004, there was no more torture. So that was so you were you were in the torture prison for two years. If I got that timeline right. No, no, no. Okay. The torture, the intensive torture was between May. No, was between June of 2003 and early 2003. A little bit over half a year. Okay. And tell me again when you were and you were brought to Guantanamo Bay. Tell me when you arrived there. I arrived August 5th of 2003. Okay. Two. Two. Two. Not three. Yes. And yes. So and so but what happened that they just didn’t know what to do with me. So and I was just there, you know, and they wouldn’t release me and they wouldn’t take me to trial. They wouldn’t release me because they thought I was I witnessed so much. I saw so much and they didn’t want me to reveal it. At least that’s my understanding of that of my lawyers. And second, they couldn’t take me to any trial because there was no crime to be tried. That was the conclusion of Moe Davis. And he wrote this in a memorandum. He said there is no evidence this guy did anything against us. And on record, he said that. And so you have to forward. So then I started making friendship with guards and with interrogators. You know, I just start to be, you know, inmate. No, I start like, you know, the guards are start to be my friends. And they introduce me to American pop culture, music, you know, when they bring books, I borrow from them the books. So did they realize at that point, did they treat you as if you were innocent apart? Obviously, they didn’t release you, but your treatment radically improved. So did they believe you, your guards and so on? That’s very hard to, you know, because we didn’t speak about my innocence or my guilt. You know, they. Because it was like a taboo topic almost. I didn’t feel comfortable to talk about it because it’s so. So I didn’t I don’t want to be a cliche, absolutely not. I just want whatever, you know, whatever. I’m just. You also must have been quite relieved, I would suspect, since your days had improved substantially. Oh, you have no clue how relieved I was, but I was a mess, you know, because. You know, because I was a mess. I was a mess. I was a mess. I was a mess. Because. You know, because I start hearing voices and I start really to get very sick. And then they put me on two medications, Paxil and. And the other, Clonopy. And then. And. So. Like most of this time I was isolation and then I begged them to take me out of the isolation, but they refused. Then after I think two or three years, I didn’t want to see people anymore. And to this day. No Jordan, I don’t I don’t feel comfortable around people. I always feel comfortable when I’m alone, you know, because. Okay. Okay, 2000. About 10 years. Mostly alone. How often would you say people just got. Just sorry, just. Just the guards and the staff. I see only the guards and the staff. And I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. The guards and the staff. And what sort of cell were you in? What was it like? It was like. I think six by eight. No, I don’t think it’s six because that’s. I think it’s four. Four by six. I don’t want to pin myself, but. What’s maybe four by six feet four four by. Eight eight feet four by eight. When was there a bed in it in the cell? Yes, it was like. It was like a metal, you know, a metal sheet, you know. That’s made into a bed. You can look it up. You can look Guantanamo Bay prison and then you will see the cell. So you’re alone for almost 10 years in that cell. Correct. So how did it come to be that you got legal representation and were able to start to? Free yourself. Some UK citizen went to court because they were with us and they had good lawyers. Then they made it all the way to the Supreme Court. And then they. And then they they won the right to be. To challenge their detention. And. I was not aware of this because I had no right even to contact anyone. But the family of that’s the advantage of a free country. So you kids are free country, so their families, they fought. Very much for everyone. And so I had all of a sudden I would I benefited from these UK citizens. Because that I was given to everyone. And in 2005, mid 2005, I met my lawyers for the first time. I met Nancy Hollander and Sylvia Royce. They came to me. And then I saw them as a window and I started to write my story, my memoir. So what did you think when you when the lawyers showed up? I was so happy, you know. And I remember the first time they came to me. I sat on a chair like this with a desk in front of me. You know, it was like one of the standard interrogation role. And then I stood up and then I start to say hi. But I couldn’t I wouldn’t move because I was bolted. But they couldn’t see the chain. And they were like. Sitting there because they were briefed that detainees are dangerous people. So they were scared. And then. I was very happy, honestly. And how long did it take your lawyers to understand your story and I presume believe you? Yes, very long, very long, because the accused is innocent until proven guilty. Only your mother believed this. So. People at large, and I’m sure you understand this, people perceive. The accused as. Well, it would be very hard for someone to believe that you had spent that long in Guantanamo Bay and weren’t guilty of something. I mean, because they would have to question the validity of the entire system. And that’s not an easy thing to do. And it’s probably even a harder thing to do if you are from a country where rule of law is the norm. Correct. Correct. Yes, yes, absolutely. You know, and I mean, I can’t say more than what you said. And I was like. Okay, how can I explain to them? And then they were very shocked when the government, when they forced. Compelled the government to show them the government show them the confession. He confessed. And then they were very upset with him. He said, why you were lying to us and so on. And I was like, oh my government only showed them. I confess they didn’t show them. I was. Did they show them the lie detector results? Much later on, because the government hold all the cards and then they show. Only the thing they want to show, you know, and you know, like democracy and the. Rule of law is premise that the three branches of the government cooperate with each other. So, and the, the, the, the executive power has so much power over judiciary. And the parliament, because only the executive power has weapons, has violence could, could use violence because a judge can only tell you, you’re right. You can go home, but the judge doesn’t have the key to open the cell and let you go home. So the, the executive power has to cooperate and respect the judiciary by a large this function in democracies. But in the case of Guantanamo Bay, the executive power completely showed a great deal of contempt toward court system. So how did your lawyers free you? How did that happen? Look, this is not easy because they had to prove that I was innocent. That was like mission impossible because they have to show the government. I’m innocent. It’s not the burden. It’s not the burden. It’s not of the government because this is, and I say this very frankly and very straight. The problem with the crime they call terrorism is that it’s very political, very politicized. And especially in my part of the world, I can speak to that. It’s used to oppress, uh, peaceful, mostly peaceful political dissent and to crush them and to, uh, people who don’t like just to put them in a prison because they could be your political rivals. Unfortunately, this playbook of the dictatorial regimes in the Middle East and authoritarian regimes was copied in Guantanamo Bay. And they just say you’re terrorists because when someone says you’re terrorists, everything could be done against you. And there is no definition. And I have big problem with that. I don’t think that philosophically in a democracy, terrorism should be a crime. Terrorism in a democracy cannot be a crime because one, it’s not clearly defined. Terrorists in Canada are not terrorists in Egypt. Terrorists in Egypt are not terrorists in Saudi Arabia. Terrorists in Saudi Arabia are not terrorists in Palestine and Israel, et cetera, et cetera. But a murderer is a murderer because same thing in Canada, in the U.S., in Mauritania. If you kill someone, that’s a crime and it can be proven very easily. But you could be a terrorist in Egypt. And as soon as you get to Canada, you’re a good citizen. You know, and second, it’s used for political purposes and political, uh, uh, oppression. And it’s used to, uh, or I need to bail out. So, and it’s used to, uh, to, uh, to punish people en masse. I can give you an example. Just a few months ago, the Houthi in Yemen were a terrorist group. And then now they are not terrorist group anymore. What kind of, what kind of justice is that? You know. So how did your lawyers prove that to the, to the satisfaction of the people who could release you, that you should be released? They took me to, uh, so we fought to go to the court system. So I was intimidated. I was threatened, but I said, I’m going to go in 2009. We succeeded to fight, to be heard by the late George Robertson. Uh, I mean, uh, uh, Robertson, Judge Robertson. And he, he ordered my release in 2010. So he heard us in late 2009, ordered my list in 2000. And he said, there is no evidence to hold this guy. And the government refused. And then they, uh, the appeal, the appeal hung, you know, and I, so my book was published after a very big fight. And then after the publication of my book, the government said they want to review my case. They reviewed my case. They said, I’m no threat to the US in 2016, July of 2016. And in October of 2016, they said, I can’t go home. End of story. Now a movie was made out of that book as well. A movie, the Mauritanian, please go and watch the movie and make up your own mind. And it’s pretty accurate. And there is no hero in the movie, just like a bunch of people. And, um, it shows like just, you know, the weakness of human beings. And your attitude towards all of this now? Total forgiveness, because I believe in reconciliation. I believe that our life is too short to hold grudges and to wage wars. Because we need each other. You know, my country needs the United States and the United States could need my country. And we need to be brothers and sisters and we need to cooperate and make our world a better place. And I’m starting by honestly and earnestly say that I hold no grudge against anyone. And I’m ready to cooperate with anyone regardless of their religion, their background, their ideology, political ideology. And why did you come to that decision? Because of the diaper story I told you, one of the CIA put me in a diaper in diapers and I faced death. I want to be a better person. And you hung on to that through the time that you were in Guantanamo Bay? Absolutely. I couldn’t honestly express it because people could say, oh, he’s just scared. But now I’m a freeman. I could say it and I’m inviting everyone I met in Guantanamo Bay to come to me. Some people came to me and we drank tea. They stayed at my home. One of the guards, Steve Wood, he came to me three times and I hosted him in my humble room. And why did he come to see you, do you think? We became friends. We became good friends. You know, he’s the godfather of my child. I’m the godfather of his daughter. And we just want to be friends and to show everyone that peace can be made. We don’t need to hold grudges. Is there anything else you want to say? I would like to say I’m so honored to be on your show. And I thank you so much to give me your platform and allow me to share my story with your audience. Well, thank you for walking through it. I’m sure that’s far from pleasant to do that. You have no clue. Yes. Thank God for that. Mohamedou, it was very good of you to talk with me. I wish you the best. Thank you so much. And please take care of yourself and get healthy. Most important thing. Much appreciated. Thank you.

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