https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=v6GySpsbjjo
Hey, John, welcome. Hey, hey guy. It’s great to be here. Yeah, yeah, it’s good. It’s just good catching up with you again because you have been on the demand for you and your work because it’s been literally worldwide on multiple different levels, right, it’s I think is like you put your finger right in the center of something, right. And so you’re like literally have more invitations and then you then you do cells in your body, it seems like quite that. Yeah, but yeah, there’s, there’s been a yeah, there’s been a significant increase in my, you know, the things I’m doing the invitations I’ve been responding to the request for collaboration the projects. Yeah, it’s it’s, I mean, it’s. Yeah, like, I’m very grateful for it. I’m not complaining. It is. Yes, it’s been it’s been demanding it’s been quite demanding. Yeah, I could imagine. One of the things I’ve just appreciated about you, and I kind of, I just get this about you. Um, I think probably most people get this about you is is it Chris and I were talking yesterday and. He was saying, yeah, it’s like john, it’s just, it’s just like it’s always been with john, it’s just on a much bigger scale. Right, like, like the, the, the intensity of the questions that you’re on is just what you’re already up to it just amplified a number of times, right. From his perspective. Yeah, well, his perspective is one of the best perspectives. I watched. He recorded some videos with one of my patrons, Robert Gray, and his observations about me and my work. I think it’s better than my own self observations. Yeah, yeah, I deeply appreciate. Chris, Chris has to say, and it was humbling. So, yeah, right about that I can, I can feel, I can feel your friendship with them. Just look like yeah, what you touched in on there. Yeah, he’s profound and people make people are there’s sort of it’s a joke, it’s not meant to be taken totally seriously but in this corner of the internet that you know that a civilian has named it well by the way she’s created a Twitter account for it. This little corner, or something like that. They, they say, you know, if I’m soccer he’s Chris’s Plato. And, yeah, he. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, again, taken in the right way and all pretension and the hyperbole aside what the intent of the analogy. I got it, I think, and I’m deeply appreciative. Yeah, yeah. As a lot of his observations. I think he’s being on about this. Yes, this is always. I don’t feel like the qualitative structure of what I’m doing is change. I just feel like the scope and intensity of it has changed. That’s what he means and I think that’s what he means. And, you know, the way the meeting crisis, and then the way Kobe accelerated it. Okay, I keep, I get a lot of comments to the effect that people are watching the series now and they think it was made during COVID, and they discover it was made way before COVID even came. And they’re shocked. And it’s, and it’s, they realize, oh, cope. And what happens is they get this sort of second to ha, oh COVID is just magnifying things that have been in development for a long time. Yeah. Oh yeah, totally. You know, I, I, by the way, for you and the and the listeners might. You may hear my six, my six month year old in the background, and I’m going to invite us to, to, to, I’m gonna set the context of the Native American, Native American sets and their ceremonies which is children are articulation of silence. When I heard that, when I heard that I was like that is a great, that is a great, like reframe. Very convenient and true. Right. On a certain level so we see if we hear silence murmuring in the background, we’ll just let it, let it deepen the conversation. You see, I’m like you I’m a parent, what, two times and so I just, that’s just, I wasn’t even like I knew it was there but it doesn’t, it doesn’t do it doesn’t jangle me at all right. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. In fact the conversation that we had about this. Chris and I talked for I don’t know about three hours yesterday and it was just lucky you both of us you have both of us just had these. It was a profound, like so many, so many big things that have been kind of coming together for me, you know, especially around, especially around, around being a father again at this age which I’m going to be 50 in August. And, and the things I’m picking up on that I just, I didn’t quite pick up on, because I was in such a different place in my life when I, when I had my first child is just is just intense right because I had. I had taught a piece, a developmental, a PSG and developmental model that I teach in my courses and I hadn’t, I hadn’t taught that for a while. I just did it a few days ago, and I. It was. It was so interesting to hear. First of all, it took twice as long as it used to take because there’s so much more I’m getting about. Yeah, yeah, about the way that we develop, and it’s, it’s interesting because I think I. I would go park down by the by the water here and in Alameda, and just sit as much as I can. And one day, and I’ve been thinking about this ever since but one day. There was this old guy who looked about 120 years old with the cane that looked like he had since he was two. Right. And, right. And he, I watch him walk across the park. And I was actually transfixed by him. Right, and I didn’t quite know exactly what it was that what caught my attention exactly. But as I’ve been thinking about it. And it’s about the relationship between him and his cane. That was so pronounced in it. And it says, it’s like it’s like he’s in some sense in dwelling in his cane. Yeah, right in his pain is in dwelling in him. Right, there’s this. There’s this that one. Right. So like if you took if you took the cane away from him and you just looked at the cane. You literally like could just almost picture the guy, and vice versa. Right. Yeah, that’s a story interrupted you that image is used independently and convergently but with more quantity and planning to talk about. I use that when I talk about when I get people to pick up an object and tap on it. And so they become aware of subsidiary and focal awareness, and the different scales of attention. Yeah, and, and I’m reading, I’m going to be talking to I’m reading extra meets both making contact in which she integrates on a party. Well, planning and one of the party and a bit of decent Schindler together. And this idea of in dwelling. Yeah, I’ve tried to make use of that idea. When I tried to explain sort of participatory knowing that you indwell something and allow it to indwell you so it’s, it’s, it’s union through loving that mutually accelerating in dwelling is, is a kind of love a kind of intimacy. That’s what happens to people in circling a cup, of course. Well, it’s kind of it’s also like it, it’s precisely what’s happening with peak. And my son, and what’s interesting about this is, is. So, you know, my wife stays at home with them all the time so they’re, they’re a unit, like it literally looks like another limb growing out of her. Right. And, and she had to go to the dentist and so it was just me and him which is rare, let she’s ever gone. And so she’s like loved me up with the bottles and all the milk and all that kind of stuff right. And he’s going through these, he’s got this temperament that’s like a Buddha, almost all the time. But he’s going through some kind of teething thing so he would just start crying like crazy out of nowhere. Right. And there was this moment where I had him up on the couch and he starts, he starts screaming. I’m like, Oh, all right. Get the bottle so I put him down on the couch and I run and he’s screaming, and I go into the kitchen I grabbed the bottle and right before I come out I hear silence. Yeah, and of course, I’m like, Whoa, and I go around the corner and he had just flipped, he, he had, he had developed enough to where he could flip himself over on to the floor, he had never done that. And I’m, of course, panicked, and he’s, he, he gets up, and he doesn’t quite know what’s happening, and I pick him up. And he was fine. But it scared him. And I think he had his first break in break in reality. When he, when it dawned on him. This kind of shock. He started to scream at a level I had never heard before. And he looked right into my eyes for about, I’d say, a good 20 minutes, he would scream and like look right in my eyes. And then he, he’d like lose contact for a second and then he look around and he’d look right in my eyes and I sit down with them. And I, I give him the bottle, and he, he starts sucking on the bottle right while screaming at the same time and spitting out the bottom but he won’t lose contact with my eyes, and we’re doing this. Yeah, this thing. And it was really interesting because at a certain point he, he calmed down enough right to where he was just, he was just sucking with these little iterations of little eruptions right and he, he started to fall asleep and he’d wake up again, and they’d contact me again, right. And back and forth is back and forth until finally he, he fell in, it’s like the deepest sleep I’d ever seen in him. Yeah, and I there was sat there in this. Because we were alone I just had this he was sleeping and it was completely silent. And I’m sitting here after this whole experience. And I had such a profound feeling of, I don’t know how to put it, it’s something like the I dose to gathers of the family. Right. Right, something like that the thing that I that that that that gathers all the aspects of everything that we do as a family that I’m usually lost and dealing with. Right. In that moment of silence with him. Right. I watched that kind of break for him for a moment and then come back together. And where he found himself was right here. Yeah, and I knew to look him in the eye and he knew to look at me in the eye, and there was this. This interesting dynamic, and because we could just sit there for a while afterwards. I literally felt like almost like the I dose of the family that gathered everything together. I felt like it glistened or something I could almost see it. Right. And it’s, it’s this, it’s this kind of feeling of very much like the cane, and the old man. Right. There was him in literally in dwelling himself into me and me and him. Right. Like it broke. And I saw the whole thing kind of reorganize in real time. And then that experience just kind of vibrated for a moment and I kind of, I felt this sense in which I felt what we both were participating in. That was much bigger than both of us. Right, because it wasn’t like I had in my mind you know when he falls down, like, make sure and look at me eyes and all this happened as a kind of tacit knowing. Right. But this in this way where I felt the organizing principle of all that just hover in the air and sitting with it. And it was in it and I felt as if it was the thrill as he talked about it like the through line of not just all of the moments of being a family with him since he was born, but also all the other families that are like that, all the way back. Right, you could have this kind of line of this the way that we gather and come together. Oh, that’s powerful. Yeah, I think the comparison to the cane is apt. I use that as an example of the transparency opacity shifting. Yeah, the old man or the blind person is feeling through the game, they don’t feel the game. Yeah, they feel through it, but at times, especially if there’s a break if something goes wrong, you know they step back and look at the game or like I do with my glasses step back and look at it, rather than looking through it. And so that disruption. Normally you’re I think you’re, you’re looking through all of that. And then the disruption means you step back and you’re looking at it and then you get the sense of all of this machinery at work. At so many different levels of our psyche and between our brains and our bodies and between you and another person and the way evolution and culture and history of all shaped them and all that machinery comes in. Yeah, you become aware of it. Yeah, moments are those moments are very, very powerful. Yeah. And I like, I hadn’t directly made that connection and I’m sort of savoring it right now. Because that’s so apropos to the logos and to the action, but no but the idea of the transparency opacity shift that when he talks about, and it when it discloses the organizing principles the IDOS of things. That’s very good. Like, like, right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Well, but yeah, yeah, but that’s it like, there was a piece that the pieces we’re talking about are in my mind and not just casually I’ve talked about them in depth but what you just did that that yeah but notice how I trans, there’s a transparency opacity shifting that’s going on, and we have talked about something similar we talked about the theory theory of moves. But yeah, there’s some, yeah, there’s, there’s something going on there, what transparency capacity shift is the ability to disclose the underlying organizing principles that give us a participatory sense of an IDOS of the through line of a structuring patterning. Yeah, that’s really good. I like, I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. I’m gonna have to reflect on that but that’s the really, really powerful connection. That’s why the mindfulness is such an important thing that we get people to practice the scaling down in meditation and the contemplation before they do any of the other practices so they. Yes, yes. That we’ve got to bring that out a bit more in the dialectic into the logo. That’s very good. Well, there’s one of the things is one of the things that’s the point of this one thing one thing. That’s the Socratic. The Socratic aporia is like when he fell off the couch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Socratic aporia tries to trigger a transparency opacity shift. And it’s the shift that discloses the IDOS. Yes. Ah, ah, yes, yes. Because it’s there is that sense in which. Yeah, there’s that sense in, in, in, when it’s so like philosophical aporia or Socratic aporia. It’s in this is this is the big thing that I think in the logos that the context of the logos helps us see that limitation. Right, that, that, that, that, that, the lack of knowing we could say into the site of moreness, right, of like, like what content which which where he just was like, you know, the, the thing in itself and you can never reach it and there’s that separation. There’s a sense with with the logos where that line actually accounts for the sense of what you don’t know in that moment, in some sense, is the way that the moreness is present the beyond, I think you talk about it is that the, you know, instead of the thing in itself that you can’t contact is the thing beyond, beyond itself, that thing that only exceeds in contact with that right. So two things about that. Right. One is, right. Like, this is from the work I’m doing after Socrates so Nicholas of Cusa, who also wrote dialogues, by the way, right, and learned ignorant, sorry learned ignorance, and his learned ignorance is the culmination of the the sopratic, I know that I don’t know. Right. And this whole and that it’s in that state, where you get the disclosure because it’s not a privation, it’s like this like you said it’s a moreness. And then model quantities point that the body is inherently the thing beyond itself because it’s, it’s you, you, you, you don’t have a body you are a body. And yet, your body is a body amongst the other bodies in the world, the body is always a thing beyond itself, because it allows you to be in it allows you to directly participate in the way everything is, or most things are embodied in the world. Right. It’s also something that you are. And so the body is inherently the thing beyond itself. And that’s why the embodiment aspect of the logos is so crucial because, like, you, and this is this is Harmon to an objective, like, objective oriented ontology, right, object oriented ontology, I should say object. We talked about how you actually, it’s your own moreness within yourself, the way you’re a thing beyond yourself that allows you to block the object as a thing beyond itself and beyond you. Right. Yeah, yes, very much all of that. Sorry. But what what I’m getting. Yes. And what’s exciting to me is there, like, and this is what I’m doing some kind of work on. I talked about the rovers on Mars again yesterday. I’m just I’m trying to get this into like into practice. What does it mean to take these notes, and what you just did a minute ago. And what you just did a minute ago. It’s like I’ve even thinking we should modify the dialectic into the logos practice, and that when the person falls silent, the first like the proposer. After the, like, after there’s acknowledgement, and the interlocutor gets agreement that they’ve been understood. Yeah, and there’s, there should be, they should sit in silence, everybody should sit in silence for a bit. And they should struggle with the opening that’s been created by the proposer and the aporia the horizon that they’re on. And we really try to do the transparency to opacity shift step back into mindfulness practice and see what is trying to emerge, what is trying to emerge what is trying to come forward. Yeah, and then the person would the next proposal would propose what they’re going to say, like I think we should introduce a moment of aporetic. Mind like I had with Pete. Yes, exactly. Yeah, people, the two people just, and everybody just stays in contact, like you just, and everybody’s trying to sense before. Let’s, let’s make a space for the silence before we speak let’s feel the aporia let’s feel where we’re struggling. Let’s feel what’s trying to what’s trying to give birth, we’re going to be midwives. I think we should modify the dialectic into the logos to have a moment in there of aporetic silence, where people are encouraged to do a transparency to opacity shift. Yes, yes. Yes, and catch that moment and say and savor it. Exactly. Yeah, savor, savor, savor. Yes, and in some sense kind of in some way, wed or rewed or actually realize our weddedness to, in some sense the unknown is such right like the sense of like what kind of silence is it and start to articulate. Yep, quality of knowing. Yeah. Yeah, I want I want people. You know, I want people to savor the mute musicality of that. That’s what I want people to do. Yeah. Yes. And then another thing, not for this, where I think we can incorporate that into the upcoming workshop, but I was talking to Rick Petty, and where they do what’s called Socratic dialogue with a big D. And I think we should think about also putting that because the dialectic into D logos is apophatic, right. Right. And then this one is trying to induce wonder, what they do in Socratic dialogue is they’ll pose a question and each one will give an answer, like there’ll be a circle. And then everybody, what you have to do, let me be really careful. So the topic is honesty. So you have to say a moment in your life where you felt you most right were honest and what was disclosed to you about honesty, and then everybody goes around and says that and then they all sort of vote on which episode most is a And then, so that one person becomes the person that’s questioned and then everybody else is allowed to ask probative clarification questions about that. And they’re trying to work out, like what honesty is, and then everybody goes around and takes that definition back into their own moment and tries to read it, rise to discover in that moment, something that they hadn’t seen before because of the collective definition. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah, it is that’s almost like the photographic negative of that’s what I said when I was talking to Rick I said, yeah, dialectic into D logos is apophatic that’s the cataphratic and what we should do is have people practice both. Yeah, we should do that we should do a week long course of this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. Yeah, you all of this. I, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting like, you know what, another thing and this is this is this ties in here, and in some way and I talked a lot. And when I talked with Chris about it, we just went expanded into this whole other thing, right. But this way in which there was something revealed in the way in which teague, he six months old, right, he, like he barely even knows that these shapes in front of him or has anything to do with him right. Yeah, but he had this break the shock of the realization of separation or something like that. And then he knew where to look to find himself. And it was here. Like, and I think that reveals something about the way that the way that we are at perhaps the deepest level evident to ourselves with a way that we are given to ourselves. Through other people. Oh, totally. I am given to myself as the beloved. Right, like everything. Yeah, kids can’t introspect until they’re about four or five years of age. Totally. Literally, that look was this that look was this direct peek at where he was right where he. Yes, it’s in the symposium right. Yeah, the other person’s eyes are the mirrors by which you see yourself. Yeah, right. Yeah, totally. In that in that sense in what’s what’s what’s wild is, is when you think about it, what’s peculiar about it is that that way of being evident to our phenomenologically evident to ourselves right is the self that I have isn’t a, it’s unlike almost everything else that I deal with in the world where everything else is pretty much. It presents itself from itself, right, it’s evident from its own self presentation from its own ground. But when I look at me, I’m not presented from myself evidence from my own ground, I am given over as as this inner subjective. Totally, totally. That’s not a self presentation. Right. Yep, that’s the Chris, Chris and I are going to get into that I just got it today. Philosophical fragments and Johannes Klemmeckis by Kierkegaard, because we’re we’re we’re we’re we’re No way. I just bought that yesterday. I just yesterday, that very book. Well, there you go because we’re preparing a video series on Socrates and Kierkegaard. And so I’m going through because the philosophical fragments is written under the pseudonym of Johannes Klemmeckis. And then so that’s this and then Kierkegaard wrote a sort of a biography of him, which is really interesting. Yeah, because we’re preparing the Socrates and Kierkegaard video series. And exactly that that that that notion that when you’re talking about about and even, you know, climate, I’ve even been reading the actual john Klemmeckis the guy who wrote the ladder, what is it the ladder of ascent, or he was a monk. And I think that’s why Kierkegaard picked him like it’s deliberate. Yeah, because Kierkegaard is really wrestling with exactly this issue. So for example, john Klemmeckis is all about leaving the world and going into solitude and being by yourself. Kierkegaard is like, of course, deeply identifying with this and attracted to this. But Kierkegaard also knows right, right, how much right, ourself is the self is a relation to itself and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff about that we’re talking about here. And that’s why he writes, like, you know, he writes under pseudonyms and he writes almost in dialogical form and, yeah, just, it’s, it’s, yeah, you need to know about four more hands. It’s so it’s so familiar to us. That’s the key. But you don’t realize that. Familiar. Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. You don’t, exactly. Even the using the word familiar relies on the fact that you have been within a family. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yes. Oh, there’s something that’s familiar to me. Well, that is because of the way you are conscious and you write and this is, this is part of Kierkegaard’s thing. Right. And you extend that to the world in a way you don’t even realize yet. All of that. This is what we were talking about. Yes, this is what we’re talking about. Chris and I were talking about it in terms of this, this model that this model that I use it to kind of describe developments, the kind of a Piaget-esque kind of model that goes from, we could say, you know, dependency to independence to interdependence or in, in Wilbur terminology, like the pre-rational, the rational, the trans-rational or dependency agency communion. And in talking about these leaps that you make, right, when you develop, when it goes well, right. And it, and you think about it, this, this connection between vulnerability and ability is so profound when you think about this because it’s just more synchronicity because John Rusin talked about what is it, what, what does it mean to become an adult and how, how is that different in the very way we experience time? Yeah. And he was talking about adulthood as this ability to, to basically to respond to reality. And he was talking about the, like, again, he took something very familiar, right. And he was saying, what does it mean to become an adult? Yeah. Like we taught, we use this word maturity and we have biological markers for it, but the, and legal markers, but no, no, what’s the, what are the existential markers? Right. Think about Teague takes his first step because reality basically hits him when he falls. Yeah. And he realizes that there is something beyond him that is nevertheless can reach to the very depths of him. Yeah. Simultaneously transcendent to him and imminent to him. Yeah. He talked about adulthood as a growing responsiveness and responsibility to this. Yes. Yes. And if we think about it, this is what, what Chris took this to a whole other level, which opened up a hole. I needed, I needed like 10 more nervous systems to be able to kind of grok what we were talking about, right. To contain it. But there was this sense where we were talking about this, you know, where the child, because the child is literally like literally every human infant. When you look at an infant, what you’re looking at is literally the most vulnerable, the most vulnerable part of the cosmos, right? There’s like, they’re like comparatively of any other mammal, probably any other organism in this way. You’re literally seeing the most helpless and vulnerable and exposed creature in the world. Yeah. Therefore, it’s a unique kind of dependency that we start off in where it’s the parents kind of in some sense, seal off the outside world and create the second, right? This sense of the holding environment. And, and as the child develops, right, there’s that, that, that quality of that quality as it as it develops, and it can start to begin to reach out a bit. Then if the parents are a tomb, they’ll let a little bit of the world come in. Right. And then you start, you get that mutual reciprocal shaping, right. And a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And independence would be something like, it would be something like, when when, when, when you internalize in some sense, the, the responsiveness and the security that comes from that responsiveness, right, in those parental relations, when that becomes something internalized, then you jump up into independence or agency. I want to complexify. I want to complexify that. Because John Risen was talking about this and he was doing it said, you know, that adults are the buffers for the call them the buffer zone for the children like you know we’re buffering. Yeah. And it’s like, oh, that’s a great metaphor. And I said, yeah, but is it, is it really the case that we leave that behind. Or do we do something else. Because I said, what I said, I said what COVID revealed is that what people do is they take that, and they create a bigger buffer zone, and that’s called And then what we do is we have layers of this that, and what COVID did was strip a lot of that away and people felt very vulnerable, and they even moved often, I think, often dangerously into more infantile modes of reacting to the world and responding to the world. Really. Yeah, so I you know it’s it’s, I think, I think it’s simultaneous, which I think is really. Yeah, we start to we start to internalize that. But we also start to, you know, we also start to externalize our capacity for familiarizing the world and now we can really play on that language. So, you know, what we do is we create bigger buffer zones. Right. Think about how home is basically, you know, a transformer in the almost the electrical grid sense. Yes, the world is, you step down the power of the world into more, more predictability and more familiarity. Yeah, and when you when you’re ready you can write, because I, you think about how those two moments, right, think about Luke Skywalker leaving home, right. Right. And that’s the second growing up, right. I just, so I think it I think I’m seeing it more and more like niche construction, rather than just going out like replacing the hero’s journey metaphor with the niche construction metaphor that right what we do is we start to internalize the environment, and that’s what we do is we start to shape us responsive to reality, but we also make the we also shape the environment. Yeah, so they become mutually that’s. And I think. And I think what allows us to do that that looping is the fact that we’re inherently intersubjective. And in that sense, and this is what this is what this is what in my conversation with russon was john russon was where he said, you know, we never get rid of that exposure. And that’s the, in some sense, it’s that it’s that that tacit understanding, right, and this is probably what heidegger would refer to is death, right, this, this, this sense of what’s our exposure, right, is constantly in the background it’s always there. And in some sense, we’re. It’s not that we become invulnerable, it’s that we can be, we can begin to become more profoundly permeable and transparent, right to the world, the world to us right and greater deal. This is what and this is what Chris said, right. Like when we went from independence, right. Dependency independence. Chris is like, and this is where, then the parents leave, and then it goes to God. Yeah, right. Traditionally, right, that’s the sense of like where, where it’s like that you never lose the dependency. And then I would, I was thinking about well, and I would imagine. At the most profound level. It’s, it’s like when, when that which, when it’s God, and then it’s revealed that God, in some sense, was the thing that was. I was dependent on the whole time that I didn’t realize right that like that that was already the case and then in some sense, the parents were enacting this, this deep deep deep kind of archetypal, I did it. The structure of the world, right, in such a sense that, and then it comes back down. But this is what’s interesting is, is, once you do that, like agency, almost right away goes to communion. Right, because the moment, the moment that you have genuine agency. Right, and that there’s something, there’s a felt sense of that I can open up to the world because that there’s something that isn’t at stake. Such that I can actually open up to it, because there’s a certain amount of security, right within within the way I organize in my world right so I can open up to the world fully I can open up to being hurt I can open up to the unknown I can open up to all these, all these, like the wonder of things. Because there’s some sense in which I understand that I can relate to whatever comes up, and that there’s something deeply essential that isn’t at stake in the matter. Right. So, I would want to put that like three resonances with. Yeah, the first is one of the things. This is, again, a crooked guardian and the Socratic point one of the things. That religion should do is take that tacit familiarization of the world and get you to step back and look at it rather than look through it. That’s a choreo. That’s when you realize this as opposed to thinking it is just the way things are like you come to the horizon, you come to the horizon point between horror and home. Right and that’s where religion should place you so that you can instead of, instead of seeing through like people use the cocoon metaphor instead of right, right, right. You actually get a tear. Right. What I’m trying to get at is a chorea makes you step back and realize the vulnerability of the way you’ve honed things the way that you have made things familiar. And so, I was, I was thinking again about what you said and I was thinking about other stats book and how the West really lost God, we’ve lost extended family. See, but I see it with my partner because they’ve maintained the extended family. So there’s parents but then there’s the grandparents, the grandparents are a constant daily presence. So what you get for the child. Oh yes, there’s the God figure of the parent but there’s the God beyond the gods. Right. And you get you get the sense of the levels and the layering. Yeah. And so what she points out is as we move to nuclear families and individuals living alone, people have lost the sense of God, because, because of that. And so that’s also something that we should, we need to be thinking about, like, like trying to, that’s what I’m trying to get with Yeah, yeah. I try to get that with the four, the four step movement of the dialectic, so one person proposes, and then another person sort of transcends them but then they’re transcended, and that they’re transcended so that people get that sense. Right. And that’s, that’s likely that sense that that’s a logos. And that was the thing that was operating the whole time, and you find yourself in it, realizing it had already been the case. And there’s that fortitude. Right. There’s that. Yes, it’s always beneath you and beyond you. Yes, like the parent and then the grandparents and like the way you felt the evolutionary guide running through you when totally when you were unlocked. So, the thing is I was thinking about what you just said there is a certain kind of security, but then we’re also the beings who are whose being is in question. I think the ability to enter into a Korea is to disclose something fundamental. And for me I’m really interested in what is it as allows people to be in the question, without being consumed by the question. Because let’s be honest, this is a very good point, people try to avoid. This is high degree of point in authenticity, people try to avoid the fact that they’re being this question they don’t want just, they don’t want the transparency opacity to shift to see the framework, right, see the vulnerability of the framework, they don’t want to see the COVID forced that on a lot of people and a lot like I said a lot of people have responded in ways that indicate they were traumatized by this disclosure. And so, like this is more of a question like, yes, there’s a certain amount of security but also we are trying to get people to realize, like, that, like, when you realize that you like you want to be courageous and there’s something in you that’s being called by courage, but you don’t really get courage and it’s not so it’s not securely in your conceptual grasp, this is a Socratic moment. That’s a moment where your being comes into question because who are you? Who are you when you when you when you think you’re being heroic or exactly what did like. And so, for me, I’m trying to get. I’m trying to get. What is it we do. What is it we do that allows people. And this is why I want to do the aporia now in the, in the dialectic into the logos like we were talking about. Yeah. What is it that allows people like what to do, what to people, what do people do when they’re on that horizon that allows them to be in the question, without being consumed by it. You understand what I’m trying to get to. So I can get the sense of, and the being consumed by it. Paint the picture of what would be being consumed by the question. The bottom drops out there, the realization that the ground is groundless right there. Like this is you know what’s been going on in the conversations with you know with Daniel and Johannes, right. You know, even in the neoplatonic Christian that the war that that it’s. You are properly that place that place of tone us tension, right on the horizon, the tension between home and work. Right. That, you know, that’s the place of learned ignorance. Yeah. And that’s, that’s precisely the line that we want to be on in the logos. That’s in some right. That is the, that’s, that’s the practice in some sense it’s to tolerate that aporia in a way of the aporia. Exactly. Right, right. Yes, that’s all of the, all of the, you could say the procedural knowing that has to be there in the beginning. Right, because it’s a way of holding you in that tension, right, as it starts to open up you can start to have a right relationship with it. Exactly. Exactly. That’s how you have the right relationship to being or to courage or to wisdom. Yeah, because what do I mean by being consumed by the question is you either drop back into home. Yeah. And you pretend to have an answer. Yeah. Or you are sucked into the horror. And you think that there is there is there is no intelligibility. There’s no logos at all. Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. That’s like, this is like an AI we’re like the relevance problem relevance is neither algorithmic nor arbitrary. You can’t completely assimilate it to your algorithms that’s forming it, but it’s not just arbitrary. Yeah, it’s in between those and you have to dwell in between those. Here’s I think the difference. Here’s I think one of the difference. I think that’s the deepest deepest difference. But I think it has to do with a voluntarily turning towards it. I think when you’re defended against it, or there’s a sense that I can’t survive it. Right, there’s a sense where I don’t want it, I’m exposed. Right. That’s the difference. Right. And I, I would imagine family systems talks about talks about the intimacies of function of your ability to tolerate anxiety. Right, very much, very much. And especially the, the, and they talk about it in terms of the paradox of being human being is is simultaneously in other words, it’s not half half half the drive to be secure and belong. And the other half for autonomy. It’s 100% at every dimension, right, that you’re you have a drive to be autonomous and, and to belong. And they’re both true. And that moments of intimacy are the moments where, where it looks like if I what the risk is if I if I say the thing that’s really true for me and may lose you. Right. But if I don’t say it I’ll lose myself. And there’s that. So if you, so if you, if you can’t tolerate that anxiety and you’re defended against it and you dominate instead they say like the three ways of not tolerating the anxiety in other words, moving away from intimacy is one is you dominate. You just take charge and control everything, or you submit, and I’ll just do whatever you want to do. Or I’ll just dissociate and float in the ceiling is my favorite. Or, or and here’s, here’s the thing about here’s here’s the thing about this, and it’s in moments of intimacy, it’s something that you choose you choose to turn towards and say, right, or why, why, but why do you choose, and why does the choosing matter. That’s what’s, that’s what’s what’s what’s called. That’s, I think, I would imagine because it would have to be that there’s something that I don’t yet understand. That is calling me that’s beyond what I know. Right, that there’s some sense there’s something beyond the horizon that draws me towards the thing I’m most scared of. Right. What do you think that is. I don’t know. I mean I mean there’s two ways in which I wanted to answer that question. What came to mind first was not the question you just asked me which is maybe the better question. I was thinking what if what if people need to do to be ready for that there’s a readiness for the choice. I think, I think it’s something like, I’m going to put a little bit here, familiarity with wonder with actually wondering in the sense of pondering. This is why I think this is what’s driving our project. This understanding that the intimacy that’s cultivated in circling has to be put into the service of a deeper wondering. Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Right. And, and so I think what part of what we’re doing right. And we’ve talked about this before, the cultivation of phyla that can then be turned towards Sophia, they get the connectedness and then they get the practice on the wondering with the philosophical fellowship, and then they get there they’re ready for the turning. Yeah, so, but then the what calls us. Yeah, what calls us is, I think something like, I think, when I talked about this yesterday I thought well why did the scientists do all this stuff. Why don’t they just do the theater like why do they do that. No, they first have to get the seeing the perspectival knowing and the participatory knowing and that’s because I think that’s an argument for the dependency relationship. Yeah, the propositional knowledge depends on the skills. I’m saying it. The layer below is the space for the transformation of the layer above. So I propositional knowing, where do I go to transform my propositions and move between them. Well those are my skills. Yeah, procedural level is the space for the transformation of the propositional. So when I want to acquire or coordinate new skills I drop into my situational awareness, my perspectival knowing, where do I go when I want to coordinate these different, you know, these different things together, right, these different states of mind, these different episodes, I dropped to participatory knowing I dropped to the self and the participatory know. And then where do I go when I try to coordinate all the participants, there’s no there’s no deeper knowing that. You’re touching, you’re touching paradoxical dwelling, as opposed to any kind of knowing. Right, and this is this is where learned ignorance takes you it takes you to, it takes you to something you can’t know, because it’s ultimately about the paradox, that Yes, yes, yes. And this is like putting it in terms, if we if we use this as an analogy like intimacy with another human being. Intimacy is a lot of things, moments of intimacy is a lot of things but one thing it isn’t is safe. Right. However, when you cross that threshold with somebody and take the risk right and you enter into, because once you do that, you open into what you don’t know that you didn’t know. Right. Yes, so all of your fears this is what’s transformative about it why this is why it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, in some sense, usually leads to some kind of deep transcendence in a big way is because all of the fears that I have the moment before I cross the line. Right. By crossing the line. I become someone different in some regard, right, I, I let go of something. And it’s always it’s usually the sense of like my worst fear ends up not being relevant about what what opens up as a, as that so it’s like I say, if I, if I, if there’s a desire that I’m afraid to to say, because I’m afraid that the other person can be threatened and I’ll be shut out or whatever it is. Like, and then I say it. And I open myself right voluntarily open myself to that vulnerability of whatever happens. Usually things like things start to happen where that reveals something in the other person that has me realize that that’s not actually what I wanted. I have a conversation has me realized the real walk was this and I hadn’t realized it. Right. Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. I mean, it’s, it’s, but I think it’s like what’s interesting is that when you experience that with another person that creates a genuine sense of safety in the relation as a result of that. But here’s, but here’s the thing that you start to have faith in. You start to have faith in that like you start to have faith in. If I open up, and that level. I will, I will transform, I will. There’s something beyond what I could know. I become secure in some sense the wonder. That’s, that’s the ground, it’s not certain. It’s precisely beyond certainty it’s. Yeah, it’s faithfulness rather than what we commonly call faith. I totally agree with that. And I was going to say, that’s Steve looking at you. Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, right. I don’t know if I totally know what you mean but my, my, my goose. So, so, so, so, right. Your faithfulness is based on not a propositional but an actual encounter with the presence and the receptivity for a copy. He has a tremendous power, you can’t you like, he can. And the word I’m going to the verb here is inadequate, but he can receive a copy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. That’s what that’s what turns him to your eyes. Yeah, you can receive a guy he’s a receiver. That’s no guarantee you’ll get it from. Yeah, but there’s a receiver. Right, and the degree to which we have become persons is because we have been right entrusted to a copy in a profound way. That’s what I meant when he turns what he, what he turns is right, the, the power to receive a copy is turning, and there is the power of a copy and they are meeting each other in a profound way. And so, we get to the I think what we do, you said you get to a place where you realize, right, the possibilities of these two powers, like there’s no guarantee, you may not have ever met anybody like Brianne right, yeah I may not have met who I’m with right, right, but there is that right but there is always the promise, because these two things really do exist the power to receive and the power to give a God promise. And they are always there. So when you turn turn to each other, right, it’s the, it’s like it’s I’m thinking about almost like the positive and negative, you know, you know, magnets, these two powers are moved that they orient and then they that they fit together they belong together in a powerful way. And I think what when you when you like in a romantic relationship when you get when you know when the arrows and the phylia they can, like, they can entrust you to that agape and what you do is you trust in yourself that you have the power to receive a copy or else you wouldn’t be there, you couldn’t be there as a person. Yeah, and you write and you entrust that the other person you’re with is capable of giving it. Yeah, and the same for them. And then you’re touching the very fundamentals of how we come to personhood. Yeah, and the degree to which we trust in the power, this is going to sound like a hallmark card, but the degree to which we trust in the power of personhood is the degree to which we can be faithful in that situation of high risk. Yeah. Oh, totally. That’s what I meant when, in fact, you become attracted to it, you become trapped. Yes, attracted to it and more skills simultaneously attracted to it and more skilled at being attracted to it, it becomes right, you know, in some sense. Right. Exactly. Think about, think about what your fear is about your fear is a threat to your personhood, but in that moment that we’re talking about you can drop to the level of the power that constitutes personhood. That’s how you can respond. Yes. Yes. So you can say, well I may lose this and this but as long as I’m in a copy, I won’t lose personhood. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s like I’m getting the sense that there’s, there’s a realization of a kind of secure attachment to that which I am in wonder about, like, yes, in some sense, and what you’re saying to about this way where, like, Teague turn towards because his ability to receive right, a glass of love. Yes, and, and that my ability or lack of ability to really turn towards him with a Gothic love. And that is, is in some sense the realization of all of, like, for me the realization of all those moments of exposure and vulnerability that that then that then and here’s real car, right, made the world ripen in my gaze. Right. And it’s a gaze that’s, it’s interesting, it’s a gaze that it’s not like a gaze. It doesn’t feel like this to me it doesn’t feel like a gaze that I have. And I’m pointing it out to the world, right, like a like a like a sci fi flick or something. It feels like a gaze that’s continually revealed it’s always already been there. Right. Yeah, gaze and participate in. Right. And that’s the set, I think that’s really, in some sense, you. It’s, it’s, God, this is really interesting so in some sense it’s it’s, it’s, it’s the maturing and the ripening of. Well, here it is. Not myself as an object, right. It’s more, more like this, the realization of the source of myself as the clearing right for a world to gather and become what it is. It’s like this. That’s the seat this is one of the things about what’s been so interesting to me about watching circle developed circling develop over the years. And that, that the way to really get into the practice that people kind of get into the practice is by learning how to lead it. That’s, it’s strange it’s like imagine going to if you looked at it in terms of you go to a therapist, and like the goal of the therapist was to get you to want to be a therapist, and then to become a therapist that would be growing in some sense. It’s on its own, it’s just been like that where people. I mean some people go and get circled and participate that way. But the people who really like take it on as like, like, like, take it on as, let’s say like a spiritual practice, how they do it is by learning how to be the one who’s facilitating it, which I think. Yeah, yeah. This is, this is what I’ve always put in my pedagogy. The best way to teach is to learn the best way to learn is to teach. I just want to just pause for a second so like, I kind of felt in this moment I feel in the presence of. I think it’s a poria. The very thing that you’re talking about like that. If we just pause for a second and kind of feel what is just disclosed itself. For a moment because I could, I could just feel I just felt right in this moment. A silence come in. Let’s listen to it for a second. For me, I think the word weaving comes in, like a sense of something has just been gathering and weaving. For me, I was resonating with what I was talking about. I was talking about yesterday about the distinction between the imaginary and the imaginal. I mean, imaginal is when you’re not looking at an image in your mind, you’re looking through an image into the world, so that you can augment its imagination for the sake of perception not imagination in place of perception, but imagination that enhances perception And that’s what that’s what we’re doing here. We were throwing out these images. Yeah, in order, not to look at them, but to look through them and so I was getting in an image of a loop. And the loop is imaginal for me, right. Right. It’s helping. I’m enacting this loop. I’m not picturing a loop in my mind. I’m getting this from you and I and so I’m enacting it with gesture, and that that’s a lot that’s an it’s the in the, the, the whole point of it is to enhance my perception of something, not to look at the image, but to look through it. That’s what I was getting. Maybe that’s like, maybe you’re even doing that with weaving, weaving is imaginal. I think the quality of, I oftentimes think about the logos, the dynamic of the logos. Right. Being a kind of weaving, a gathering right context, textile, right. And, and I’ve, I’ve imagined it in some sense of imagining like okay from the, from the perspective of the weaving itself. There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s like weaving it together weaving it together but it’s all the dynamic of bringing together but at some point the weaving itself becomes complex enough to where it. Part of it kind of looks back for a second. And it sees that it hadn’t seen the pattern that the weaving had been created, but in seeing that that alters the weaving and then you start in that there’s a new, there’s a new shape that gets woven in as a function of that weaving. Okay, but this. First of all, I want to, like, this is a sidestep. Again, feeding back into like for the workshop. Yeah, we need to put more emphasis on this like what we’ve given this instruction but I think we need to, like, we’ve got to get people to pay attention to the showing up of the imaginal in gesture and in metaphor, and people, instead of it being transparent. Do the transparency opacity shift step back, look at the gestures more look at the metaphors, but look at the imaginal look at the right step back and get that and get involved with that. Yeah, like, like, we put that into the instruction for doing the practice, but we’ve got it we’ve got to get we’ve got to do more and get people like really sensitive right to the showing up of the imaginal and really doing that, make it clearing that space for it and say step back and look, look at what we’re doing look what we’re doing with our hands look look at what you were doing you were doing weaving and you’re saying weaving and then you’re, you’re noticing the connection between you’re noticing the connection between context and textile, and you did this and then you did this, and you did this, right, and it’s like, stop and savor that a lot more, just be with it before, like let it ripen before you, you go on to the next point And then, like, ripen without analysis for a bit, just savor it and ripen, and then return to try to the propositional level, like we need to get people more sensitive to the presencing of the imaginal when they are confronting a porio. Yeah. And precisely, and what you’re saying is not the imaginal like an instruction that we use the imaginal, but the imaginal that’s actually taking place. Right. Exactly. So, the, the, the imaginal itself already underneath organizing. What is happening when we’re not even thinking about the imaginal but we’re thinking through it right with it. Yes. The imaginal is when we are turning like T, we’re turning our gaze and we’re trying to find the, we’re trying to receive the attunement right. That’s what the imaginal is doing it’s trying to augment our gaze we’re sweeping our gaze around, and we’re trying to, oh there, there. Right. Oh, interesting. So this is okay. Okay, okay. So I just take a deep breath because that just something came together for me. This meditation retreat that I taught a few weeks ago. It was the first time that I explicitly taught meditation, right, as the, as you know it was a seven day silent meditation retreat. And this sense of what teaching has had me reveal over the years, is this is the musicality. Yes, of things that there’s a way in which teaching I, I really get the sense of. There’s like like a maestro conducting an orchestra. Right, that he’s not controlling the orchestra he’s not playing one of the instruments can do say he’s conducive. That’s the name. Yes, it can do say. Yes, yes. And there’s something about teaching that I would imagine that it is, is that the context of, of the, of the course right makes the feedback loops close enough in that you can hear the music a lot more. And so but then, but then what was great about it though is, I would get this sense of conducting. Right. When I was teaching, but then we’d all meditate and then I’d sit for an hour, hour and a half. And I got this sense of it was like, there was still conducting happening while I was meditating but it was different. It was more like the way electricity conducts. Through a wire. Right. Yeah. And, and this back and forth of being a wire, right and being a maestro a wire and a maestro, a wire and a maestro was started to this dialectic in the background started to started to. Like what, what is the connection between the two, what, what, how are they connected, I could feel how they were. But some part of me was like watching this, this dialectic happen. And then, then we went, because we were right by the ocean in Washington, then it was warm enough to go out and in sit and watch the watch the ocean. We did like a three hour set where the object of the meditation was the ocean. Right. Right. And I had, I was actually contemplative exercise. Yeah, yes, yes. And the. And in some, and I don’t know if I can put it into words maybe you can help me put into words, but, but I felt the deeper root that connected those two. I felt like the ocean told me. Right. Yeah, there was something about the ocean. And it, it was something like, because it felt like the ocean was doing both. Right. In some sense, there’s definitely, there is a, there’s a music going on with there’s a rhythm, right, there’s a cadence, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a conducting like a maestro there’s a musicality to it. And there’s also this straight in transmission thing animating it in the in some sense they’re both happening. So clearly transparent to each other, right and show it showing up for each other. And I just had a, I just had a felt sense of like whatever it was this kind of this conducting in it as a wire and conducting as a maestro completely joined in that moment. I’m just getting this sense of like what we’re talking about this that there’s. Yeah, yeah. That, that, and I think maybe with what I love about the, the practice that we’re going to be doing in the, in the course right the dialectic into the logos is, is I think what it part of what it’s getting at is that moment of when it shifts from dialectic to deal logos is that moment, where it shifts from use it in some sense, we become like a copper wire. Right. Yes, sometimes we’ve merged with the logos, and then the musicality right that something else is doing the conducting but we’re from the kind of the standpoint of the electricity. We’re watching it weave and we’re saying things that we didn’t even have any idea we didn’t know we knew that and all of this starts to happen. Right. And this back and forth of, of those two things. That’s what I’m part of what I’m present through here. Yeah, that’s the theurgia of it. This is the neoplatonic element, and they were often accused of that was sorcery or something. These were the ritual practices that were. And you can dock them. But the point is, you can dock them so that you are conducively open to the gods in a powerful way. And so that it did so. I am Lucas took all of the philosophical and sort of contemplative aspects of Latinas and he added in these ritual practices, where he was, and he was he was at great pains to try and describe it as exactly that, where what you’re doing is that you’re doing things, but you are you moved into you move into a state of sort of learned ignorance, where you you conduct yourself into this place that you then become a conductor. Right. Like you’re saying you flipped and you. Yeah, because what they were trying to cultivate was, and this goes back to T, they’re trying the conduction is the musical conduct like the musical conductor is trying to activate and appreciate and celebrate and thereby cultivate that original capacity for deep receptivity. So think about how music, when it’s properly appreciated, can reach deep into your capacity to receive emergent intelligent intelligibility and how it’s imaginable. How you’re not, you’re not looking, you’re looking, it’s augmenting your ability to perceive the situation, perceive reality. Yes, and there’s something about, you know, it’s interesting because if you think about, oh, okay, this is, this is, I think, analogous to some of the insights that happen. So I take a song, right. And I slow it down. Right. In a certain sense, there’s like there, if I slow it down, you can still hear it as a song, but at some point, if you slow it down enough, there’ll be some point where you can’t. The beats in the rhythm and, and the melody are because I’ll tell you working memory capacity so you lose the. So in some sense, I think that there’s probably something going on in the logos to where our relationship to time. Right. Yes, that expands or, or, or we could think about it is it contracts or brings, but some, there’s something going on that where that moment where it gets close enough and close enough where you get, you can hear the melody. And in, in the sense was the sense was on some level before that, you know, you’d hear the say the baseline, right. What happens once every four years right or whatever you have this whole relationship to like what whatever that is but you don’t feel the sense of it but you, but there’s a weird relationship. But then they come together you hear the musicality and that’s the that. My son, my younger son has sort of found his calling. He wants to be like a music producer sound engineer, and he plays on that point where he like you’ll use telling my older son and I last night he said, you know, there’s, he said I need a big TV screen because I’ll blow up the waves. So I like I’ll be looking at like a second of music and I need it broke on the TV screen so I can see what’s going on in this one second. Right. And so he, he constantly moves but he moves on both sides of that horizon. And he moves into right, and he see, and then he moves back about, oh now it like right and so he’s constantly playing between. And that’s what I think is happening in the logos, I think we’re moving back and forth across that horizon. There’s the horizontal, there’s a horizontal slowing down right of what’s happening in the group and right there there’s that that sense. Then there’s the, then there’s the vertical verticality music right that exactly. And we slow the tempo we slow it down and speed it up we slow it down and speed it up. Bingo. This is so great john thank you for this. Yeah, this has been wonderful. This is your get going. Yeah, I need to get going to. Maybe we want to use this as the video for the live chat. Maybe. Well, we’ll see we’ll talk about it. Yeah, I think you could really. Well, let’s say if Chris can’t make it we could use this as the video that we mirror into the live chat where we answer questions on Yeah, let’s talk let’s talk about it was run by Chris and do that I also like the idea of actually doing the practice and doing a test run with some of these things. Like I said, we could do both. Yes, very much. Okay. Okay, that’s cool. I gotta go. Yeah, actually, yes, if you get a chance send me this file, because I didn’t record it on my end. Okay, because I want to listen to this again. Yeah, right. And let me have Chris listen to it too. Yes. So don’t don’t upload it right away because we might want to put like it into the premier idea. Okay, cool. Okay, right on. Okay, I said it to you. Bye bye.