https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=SEJDD1omW9I
Welcome to another episode of embodying the logos. We got Teo back here and we’re gonna do freestyles. Give us your rap. Don’t let the Durag fool you. My rapping skills leaves a lot to be desired. But I do appreciate you having me back on. I know it’s been a long while since the last one, but such is life that this thing’s happened. I do appreciate that you’re gracious enough to welcome me back on. You said you watched the video that I sent you. Yeah, we’ll provide it in the notes below. So there was about the pre-Beatitudes, right? Yeah, Dali is someone that I do VNN, but I’ve been studying with, sent me that video. And it was about the Beatitudes. I think he’s been doing a series. This is the first I’ve seen of this series. But particularly it was what caught my attention was the description of the war. It was talking about the salts, being a sort of the earth. That’s the context of it. And he compared that to salting a dish to our loving people. And that can be, you can add too much salts to a dish. Sorry, I’m really butchering it, but like many also linked in this description to get proper context. But what caught my attention was the comparison of dish and salt and love. And the analogy of a dish to a, adding salt to a dish to how to love a person and how it’s, the dish sort of determines how much salts, like other ingredients in the dish determines how much salts. And yeah, so I thought that was very interesting. What did you make of the video? Yeah, so I was also caught by this connection to love. And I don’t think it’s wrong, but like it didn’t taste right. It was kind of off, right? Like in some sense it’s like, yeah, everything in the Bible is about love, right? So, but. That’s fair, you can make a connection to love from, not just in the Bible, like reality. Right, right. Because in some sense, if things are proper, the love is expressed, right? Like it’s degenerative principle to go back to generation, which we also talked about a bunch. But yeah, like I like this explorative mode was like, but what is salt, right? And I think one thing that he forgot to mention is, salt was also something that was highly valuable. So in some sense, when you’re adding flavor, you’re also adding value to the dish. And so that’s interesting. And then on the other side, it’s like, if you look at what does the dish do to the salt? Because the salt isn’t having the same effect every time. So the context of the dish is changing the expression of the salt. Like it changes in nature in some fundamental sense. Yeah, like just to flesh what you just said, part of it, different dish requires different amounts of salt. And you can’t just add the same amount of, I’m not a chef, so I’m not gonna, I can’t give examples, but you can’t just add the same amount of salt to every dish you make. Some of those will be over salted, some will be undersalted, and a few might be just right, just like randomness. So yeah, the context of the dish affects the, determines the effect of the effectiveness of the salt. Right, and so, yeah, so let me just read the verse, so I’ll get on the same page. Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt have lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? Dance forth good for nothing, it is dance forth good for nothing, but cast out and to be trodden under the foot of man. And so it’s talking about the essence of the salt, and how it loses its value if it’s not expressing itself, but it’s also looking at, in some sense, its essentiality, right, like and it’s important to realize that this is contrasted, right, so you are the salt, so that means that there’s other people that are not the salt, and you are different in a way. The fact that you have the salty quality, the fact that you can have the ability to add flavor, that is what makes you special. And so what is it to add flavor? It’s adding meaning. I think that’s the better way of framing it, it’s not so much love from my perspective, it’s more meaning. If you participate in the right spirit, if you bring in the right spirit, the experience becomes meaningful, there’s a connection that manifests, the flavors confuse into a dish. And the fact that you have this quality, I think that’s what you’re supposed to do on earth, because I like Prashur’s definition of earth, right, like earth is matter without meaning, right, and then heaven descends onto earth to infuse the meaning, right, and then we are the vehicle by which that meaning gets infused. And so if you don’t infuse that meaning. That’s the saltiness of the salt. Right. And if you don’t do that, what are you worth? You’re not fulfilling your role, you’re not doing what you’re called to do. That’s the way that I see it. Yeah, in that state you can add as much unsalty salt to a dish, it’s gonna make no difference. You lose your effectiveness because, yeah, I agree with that. What do you make of the, using the analogy of a dish for a person in terms of the complexities that goes into a dish and now the way to love a person changes from each individual. Well, so what, like I’ve been thinking about creation and how I don’t like that word, but you can have a spiritual creation, right, which is basically the creation of a manifestation, an emanation I mean, right. So if you make a recipe for a dish, right, you now have this point, right, this emanation that you keep recreating, right. You keep re-manifesting according to the same principle, food, right. So, and then you can say, well, all the dishes that are made through the recipe, right, are shaped in the idea of the recipe and the image of the idea of the recipe. And so if you think about it like that, right, then the dish itself is bringing together the ingredients, right, the things from earth with the meaning, right, the structural, to use the Vegas word, the structural functional organization of the dish, right. Recipe. Yeah, well, yeah, not only the recipe, but it’s also the execution, right, like there’s love in the cooking as well, right. The dish is the manifestation of the crystallized trial and error, or the recipe is the crystallization of the trial and error that it takes to bring about the dish. And then once that’s done, each dish after that is a reflection of that said recipe. Right. And so in some sense, right, like you can see what a principle is, right. Like a principle is that which is shared among the dishes, right, that makes them the same dish. And so they’re all under the authority of the recipe, right. And then that is also by which you know whether the dish is good or not, right. Because now it’s in relation to, so if you think about the process of cooking, right, like in… I… In terms of the verse you just read out, and I’m glad you read it, the dish represents Babylon, the world, whichever metaphor you want to use, that the people that have been given the saltiness meant that saltiness is like the power to affect change in the world. Right. I’ll read the verse before it. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Right, so that’s the context in which that’s said. Yeah, so it’s the prophets are the salts and that’s the principle we’re called to replicate, to emanate, yeah, to replicate. And… Right, and to prophesize means to speak for, right. So you’re speaking for the emanation effectively, that you’re being a voice, you’re being the means through which that can come into being. Oh yes, and just go in plain after a second, in then a form not, I’m not gonna say all of it, but a form, an expression of that saltiness you’re saying is the speech. And yeah, I think that’s interesting. I think that that lines up with the biblical narrative as far as I’m aware, because the power in the tongue and all those verses come to mind. So yeah, I think that is an expression of the saltiness is the speech, speaking on behalf of which again, are to invoke some pitasonic thing about being careful with your speech and guarding your speech and always speaking truth or all of those principles come into mind. Well, yeah, and I’ve been going on about this on Twitter, actually, like what are you the mouthpiece of, right? Like what’s driving you when you speak, right? Are you speaking in reaction? Like are you driven by a response or are you speaking for something? And are you focused, right? Are you a proper vessel of what’s calling you to speak? And when you say in reaction, automatically my brain goes to, it’s always in reaction to the, you always speak in reaction to the context. There’s always a context in which you’re speaking to. So when you say in reaction, what do you mean by in reaction? Well, so there’s two ways, right? You can be like an oil tank, right? And you’ve set a course and you’re going straight and you have this impetus and then there might be a storm or whatever and that storm will sway you a little bit but you’ll stay on course, right? Or you can be like flying a kite and having to track the wind all the time. Yeah, I think that’s a good imagery. The kite is in less control and is just always swaying with the wind. And I guess that’s where that phrase comes from. So you’re saying- Right, and so in a sense, the kite doesn’t have an anchor, right? No, it’s not. Right, and where’s the anchor in? It’s in hope, right? So if you have the hope, right? And then the hope makes you look like it constructs a vision of where you’re going, right? And if you’re anchored in that, if you fully believe in that, you can keep going, right? And then the code- That’s a good, okay. I hope you’re following because I think I’m following what you’re saying. But I’m gonna take us a little bit left but I think it’s still on track. So invoking the image of the kite and the ship. What if those are like two different dishes? So think of the way I said that a different dish are different types of people, the ship, different things in a kite or plane or ship are both in a car, a different traveling system are going through here. So those are all different types of people as well. And the kite, the way in which you navigate a kite through the flowing here is different to the way in which you navigate a ship. So that’s what I was invoking by talking about different amount of salts with different dishes. And like you rightly said, it takes a stronger wind to move a ship off its course than it would a kite. And I think that’s also true for people in terms of the way when people face adversity. It takes that we’ve got different levels of tolerance to different types of adversity. So I think- Well, there’s two things. So there’s a direct response. So you have an adversity where you get scared and then you react to your fear and we react differently to fear. But then there’s a secondary response, like a more recent response. Where you’re like, oh, I was scared. I have to deal with the fact that I was scared. But the time it takes to go from the fear to the evaluation of the fear differs depending on whether you’re a ship or a kite. Yes. And also what it means, right? Because if the fear basically makes you shit your pants, which is what the kite is, right? Like everything changes, right? Like nothing is the same after you’re scared. And then there’s two things there, right? Like, so the amount of time that you need to recover from your scaredness is increased, right? Because it’s so intense. But also how do you draw the consequences, right? Like how can you change your life in a way that that fear isn’t as, well, you get to do what you need to do, right? Even through the fear, right? That is completely different than if you’re scared and you’re like, and then you keep on going, right? And then it’s like, oh yeah, I just got scared. Like, what does that mean for my life, right? Just the amount of impact, influences the direct response, but also the secondary, the reason response. Just to give a little bit of anecdotal story that sort of puts this, for what the ideas we’re talking about into perspective. So I’ve got a friend that, she’s just recently moved back to London. And she’s struggling with accommodation, but she’s got a job that’s brought her back to London, but she got the job with that sort of accommodation. So she’s sort of floating at the moment. And then an opportunity came to, for a job with IAPA in a different city. And so, you know, to normal, someone who’s like in an healthy state of mind, it’s like, okay, cool, that’s not a big deal. But just making a decision between those two, you think whether to take the new job or not, like broke her to the point where she just, like she was just in a sea of cares and thinking about, okay, what if I don’t go, if I go, I know I’m going to be lonely. I know no one in this, in Oxford, I know it’s a new city, but at the same time, it’s not like I’m thriving in London. So she’s just in this trying to make sense of this. And when she called me to talk her through, she was expressing that if she was in a different, like the reason, yeah, a different space, yeah, stage of her life and also like stage of a space of a mind, or mental health, that she might like, she understand how silly it is that this is what destroyed our bread camels back, but it’s just things have built up. And I was pointing out to her that, A, firstly, the reason you’re struggling with this is because you’re unsure. If you’ve got a principle that tells you that money is not the be all and end all, then you’re not going like this, six pound 50 increase an hour increase in your salary is not going to have such a big old on you the way it does. And you feel like you have to, it’s just such a big opportunity that you can’t say no to. And that sort of points to the anchor, like the principle or let’s say the kite order, a different, a child navigating a kite for the first time is going to be less stable than someone that’s been doing it for longer. And the principle, sorry, just the principle, like you said, is something that comes about for you in the analogy of the dish, different trials, and then you find the right dish and then you’ve got the recipe. So it’s gone through the trial, it’s gone through the experience and it’s been drawn out and that sort of the more experienced kite guide. And what is money? Like money is the capacity to do things in the future, it’s potential. And so what is she trading? She’s trading certain potential, right, or known potential for unknown potential. Like why would you want the unknown potential? Well, because you don’t know what you have or you don’t feel that what you have is enough. Like that’s the way that you get called away. Like there’s a promise in there, there’s a hope in there, right? But it’s a false hope because it’s of the earth. Like it’s not from the heavens. And so if the potential is not infused with meaning, then what do you have? Like it’s just the ability to move things in the world without a purpose to move them. And then what you end up doing is you end up chasing the ability to move things because like you don’t wanna miss out and like there’s an implicit promise in that if I can move things, then I will get what I want. There’s like, you need to figure out what you want and then you can move things towards it. Yeah, it’s these are all, like having been in a religious tradition, subconsciously sort of you’re infused with a lot of this. And I’m finding that people that have sort of either deconstructed early or just never stuck because the premise of the culture, it was more enticing or more appealing that potential that you speak of. And it’s nothing but potential that the American dream, which is now the Western and now global dream is nothing but potential. And it sort of surprises that everyone’s got the same amount of potential. And that leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance for you can see why Marxism becomes very appealing very quickly because when reality smacks you and you’re like, oh no, those different people have different amount of potential and those potential manifest themselves very differently. And you’ve been sold this dream of yes, we’ve all got a certain amount of potential and if you don’t achieve it now, you have to look outwards. But the religious traditions forces you to look at your own saltiness. It’s not the dish that’s not flavored. You’re supposed to be the flavor. The flavor is supposed to be infused into you and then you can manifest it. You’re supposed to provide it. I guess where else is it gonna come from? You need to provide the flavor. I’ve been hearing a lot of talk. It’s like there’s a fatalism in there. Oh, I don’t choose to fall in love. At a certain point, you stop being in love. There’s all of these things where it’s like, I’m not a participant in these things. They are higher powers that come upon me and then they direct me and then I need to utilize them when I’m being blessed by them effectively. And it’s like, no, no, no, no, you choose to love. Like love is a choice, a way of life and a skill that you can cultivate. And in the video that you talked about how you can love wrongly. You can be motivated by love and still be reciprocally narrowed on one aspect that still breaks the situation because you put too much pressure on one area. And so when we go back to these people in society and especially I think the people that left church is I think they never connected to the truth that was in the work. You get it ingrained in you. You get these patterns and they resonate within you. But if you never connect them, if you never connect them to your participation in life, then they’re gonna be flavorless. They’re gonna be meaningless. They need to be salted. Yeah, I wonder if that’s, yeah, I do believe that’s true. And I think like the book of James is pretty much saying that faith with that work is dead. But I think there’s a, I think there’s a lot of people who are like, I don’t know, I don’t know, I don’t know. But I think there’s a, even dead faith, like even dead bones can rise again. So there’s always that pattern of redemption that can happen. And even in, and if that’s the case, then even in that deadness, there’s still some beauty. Yeah, the redemption is the beauty that I guess I’m pointing to. So I see the dead souls being in the bottom cycle of their hero journey, which I know has been quote unquote debunked, but that’s how I see it. And I think that’s the posture you’re meant to have is that, okay, there’s always a chance for redemption. Well, yeah, I’ve been talking about redemption a lot. So yeah, can you say more about that? What does it mean that there’s always a chance for redemption? If sin is being in congruence with reality, the redemption would be realignment to reality. Right, yes, I agree. Or yeah, or becoming true. Well, that’s becoming true again, right? That would be the realignment. True, becoming beautiful. Right, so how do we, relate to that? I guess that was more of my question. I’ve been talking about this quite a bit again. A prayer. Prayer is, I think I don’t know if it’s Peter saying or Paul, Paul commenting on Peter saying that I was talking about this. I think it was Paul commenting on Peter’s sins talk with Piers Morgan, where he was talking about prayer as a chance for you to reflect on the ways in which you are wrong. And then if you act on that, that’s what prayer is. It’s asking, okay, I think the example he gave was, you want an example of a prayer that works. You ask and truthfully ask in prayer, what are the things I’m doing in my life that’s not benefiting me? And you will get an answer. And if you don’t like the answer, it’s probably makes it a true answer. Then if you act on that and engage with that and work on it, you will get answered prayer. So I think that would be my answer. That’s the redemption is that, okay, you get the answer. This is how I’m not fitted to reality. And then you engage with the principles at church be going to regularly like, we’ll give you a reinforced those principles. And yeah. Yeah. So I would cast that as the low hanging fruit. All right. So there’s, I think there’s, two aspects. There’s one part where you’re being dragged down, right? Which is basically all the sin you build up in your life. Right? Like I’ve made transgressions that I shouldn’t make or whatever. And now I’m dealing with the consequences. And in some sense, you need forgiveness and redemption, right? Cause I think the word re is important, right? That implies that there’s something that’s lost. And this is what I’ve been talking about with Mark. I think like a lot of people treat other people like they’ve lost something that they never had. Like you can’t say you need to get back up the mountain if you never climbed the mountain. But when you say that, that what comes to mind is we are there when God said, and it was good. That’s what we’re longing for. We’re longing for that. I’m gonna use the word you don’t like, the creation before the fall. That’s when we add it. No, we’re longing for heaven. Like. Yes, we’re longing for the completion of the work that started on the cross. Yes. I think that’s. I think that. No, I’m saying the re is to go back to pre fall. So we did have it. There was a, the world wasn’t. Yeah, but I don’t like this cause it’s not gonna be the same. Right, so like there’s gonna be a reunion, there’s a reunion, right? But it’s like a spiral. Like it’s up and bigger, but it’s still in the same circle. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll give you that. I will say creation won’t be complete until the return. So yeah, I’ll again, the new heaven and the newer will be the full vision. Right, and well, it says it right? Like it’s new, right? So there’s still contribution manifesting right now to create the fullness of it. And so. As well as you’re done, yeah. So I’m gonna go back to my separation, right? So there’s a way in which you got misaligned, right? And then there’s an aspect in which you’re climbing, the hill. And so to remove the misalignment is like purification. Right, and you could call this sanctification or deification or something like that, right? And they’re separate. And I think if you have too much weighing you down, like climbing is a bad move, right? Like, cause then you’re carrying all the weight with you. So you need to do deal on this side. And I think that’s where the redemption is. I’m interested. And so I’ve been thinking about like, there’s something in Exodus, I think, or in Genesis. Isn’t, just see presence on that meta, engage that meta for a little bit. If the load that’s weighing you down, you’re saying it’s, you deal with that first before you climb up the hill. I don’t know if I buy that. I think your faith is climbing up the hill and believing that your load is like the burden has been dealt with by the cross and you just climb up either way. And redemption is that you won’t get, you only get as far as your ability. So if you just stand still, you’re not going anywhere. But if you’re attempting to climb up the hill, you only get as far as the load that you’re carrying is. So you will realize, okay, I have to keep like, slowly. I can walk, what can I chip off this load? Okay, I can’t let go of this, but this can go. So this goes and you step up. Okay, but you try to come up, no, can’t, keep falling down. So I’m not ready for this. Okay, what else can I take up? I think you’re always, you should always be climbing. That standing still to me sounds like your- Well, but I’m not, no, no, I’m, okay. So you could say there’s a horizontal movement, right? And a vertical movement. And so I, okay. I don’t, I think you can do the horizontal movement, right? I don’t think you, well, I don’t wanna be certain of this, but I don’t think you can do the vertical movement. Do you, do you have to do- God does that for you? Yes, yes. Do you have, yeah, that’s the faith thing. But I guess what, man, I’m asking you, do you have to, are you saying you have to deal with all of your load before you start ascending? Well, no, I think God will do that for you. Like then, okay, yeah, that’s what the- But you still need to till the ground. Well, that’s probably the wrong metaphor. You still need to cultivate your prayer life and maybe more important, right? Your grounding in the word that will allow you to grow up. Because like you need to build the foundation, right? And part of the foundation is building, burning of that wood, right? But you also need to replace the dead wood with something that can hold you. And the replacement, is that not the prayer and the word? That’s what you’re replacing? Well, that would be the word, right? And then the prayer would be, like I was actually doing prayer today. The way I imagined prayer there was that if you look at yourself in the hierarchy, right? Or in a body, that’s maybe better than a hierarchy. So you’re in a body and what you’re doing is you’re attuning yourself to the signals of the body. Like you’re opening your spiritual relationships to the father, right? And then your spiritual father and then the people around you, right? So you’re, you’re, you’re flat, well, you’re stretching yourself into all these directions so that you can cultivate the receptivity. You can participate in the spirit which are necessary for communion to happen properly. So that was the way that I was envisioning my experience. And so what does that do? Well, that opens you up for revelation, right? Cause now if you have proper humility, right? You can see where you are called to do things, right? Like am I having the right relationship to what’s above me? Am I having the right relationship to what’s around me? Am I having the right relationship to what’s below me? Right? Like, like is there a calling there, right? Like is there something, what I’m not seeing that needs my attention? All of that is, it was definitely happening for me. So, yeah, that’s, that’s what I was, that’s what I was getting at. But you said, go explain further how the word might be more important than prayer. Is that because that’s where you drive your principles from? Yes. Like, like, so, well, there’s, okay, there’s two situations, right? Unlike this, either you’ve been raised in the word and that’s the air you breathe. And then, so what is your duty? If that’s the case, right? Like then you need to attune, right? Like, you don’t necessarily need to familiarize yourself more, right? But you need to align yourself to it. But there’s also ways in which you went astray, right? Like even if you’re in a church, like you probably went astray in some sense, but especially if you come from outside of the church, like me, right? Like I have a bunch of whatever in my system. And like, I don’t even know that it’s there, right? Like I don’t have eyes to see the ground that I’m standing on. And so then the word, if related to properly can provide me contrast so that I can purify, I can hold on to what’s good and I can get rid of what’s bad. And I think that process is more like baptism, right? Like it’s the washing away than it is of redemption. Because like, it’s not, like there’s no redeeming, it’s building, it’s generating. I’m not sure I understand this, the distinction you’ve just made between washing away and redemption. Flush that out a little bit. Well, I think what- Are you saying redemption is- Redemption is turning what’s turned away, turning it back, right? So if you’re looking down, you’re looking back up, right? So basically- That sounds to my very evangelical upbringing, like how we would describe repentance. Repentance is the turning away or turning back. And, but that’s still as an, at that point you’ve not stopped. You’ve turned, you’ve gone from looking down the hill and rolling down it to, okay, you’ve stopped and you’ve turned and looked up here. So, okay, this is where my, that’s where salvation lies up the hill. And by turning that, by repenting, the promise is that you will, through the work of Christ, make it to the top of the hill. And the process in which you go about doing that is our, that’s the redemption process to me, or sanctification, whatever word you want to use. Does that track with us yet? Well, so I just looked up the etymology and redeem, right? It’s to buy back, which you can redeem a voucher as well. Right? So there’s, well, there’s the word re, right? Which is the return, right? The back, right? Which, and that’s what I’m focusing on, right? Because that- The back. Yeah, there’s, when you go back to something, it must have been there before, right? And so when you buy something back, right, what are you doing? You’re providing value so that the ownership gets changed. Right? So in your context as someone from, that came from outside the church, how does that apply to you? Were you bought back? Like, where’s the back in your story? I don’t feel like there was a back for me. That’s the problem. That’s where you’re pointing, see? And what I was saying is that the back is the, and it was good, pre-four. That’s the, when people talk about the gut shape or- Yeah, yeah, okay. But I, okay. So if we look at Barfield’s framework, right? So you have initial participation, right? And then you, I don’t know what the word he was using. Well, so he has these three frameworks, right? So basically you have initial participation, which is basically you as a child following nature, right? And then you get the fall, right? You get awareness, you get the construction of the ego, there’s a will besides God will that you’re acting out, right? And then there’s a final participation, right? Which is basically the communion between your will and God’s will. And so, so what there’s, if you’re a spiritual, let’s use it that way, right? Like if you’re a complete materialist, then what you end up doing is you end up completely buying into your ego, right? Like you fully identify with your ego and well, that is effectively hell, right? Like now you’re disconnected from God, right? At least in your experience, like not- Now you’re left with your own values, which is hell, yeah. Well, like it doesn’t matter where your values come from, right? Like they just basically, they’re like rain. They just fall on you and they nourish you because you’re still alive, right? Which is by the grace of God, ultimately, right? Because like- Cause it’s a good end of bad, yeah. Right, and like in order to manifest anything in the world, right? Like you need to have a relationship to a true principality, right? So like those things are not shut off, but you have an idolatrous relationship to them, right? Like in some sense, they’re fallen angels, right? Like they’re not connected to heaven. They’re on earth. They’re earthly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that. Go ahead. No, no, no, you keep going. You’re on the floor. And so it’s important to realize that, like what is that, right? Like basically you have a bunch of emanations, right? That are not organized amongst each other, right? They’re not related. They’re not an acquire singing and praising God, right? They’re on earth, dancing their own tune. And so you could say that if you reorganize that, they’re going back to their original thing, and like there’s truth in that at some point, but then I would argue, well, like that always has to be true. And now we’re talking about a universal, right? Now we’re losing the meaningful distinction. No, no, no, no, I think that is the point. The point is if you’re returning to, like truth has to be eternal. And the truth about reality has to be, no, truth does not. No, no, no, I think, right? A fallen principality has its local truth, right? Because within that principality, right? Within that body, right? Things have a relationship and they work to a certain degree, right? So there is a way in which idolatry works. That’s more small letter T truth, yes. So the way you’re saying is the yin yang symbol, there is a white dot in the black, there’s a black dot in the white. Is that sort of like even in our fallen states, there’s still the breath of God in us, so to speak. It’s like that. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, I agree with that. But I’m saying, I’m not talking about that small, I’m talking about capital T truth. The way in which reality is ordered, that has to be consistent throughout, that has to be unchanging. And I guess I’m also a little bit talking about invoking one of the attributes of God in this, of God being unchanging and arguing for that. And saying that the return, the reback, in the capital T context, is a return back home because that’s true. You just quote, quote, went away from it because of you falling angels rather than the true God. Yeah, yeah, yes. You’re cutting out, so. Yeah, sorry, Dan. To respond to what you’re saying, yes, right. Like, okay, so, like this, now we’re getting to the place that I don’t like. It’s like, yes, from the perspective of God, that’s true. But we have to deal with our own thing and all of it. Yeah, yes, yes, I agree with that, okay. So like, yeah, then I’m like, I don’t wanna take that perspective because I think if you’re reasoning from that perspective, you’re gonna corrupt everything. Because then you’re gonna pretend to know what the perspective of God is and you don’t. And like that, like you’re closing yourself off for revelation. I don’t, yes, to an extent, I do, I see the danger of following that thinking that you’re pointing to and I completely agree with it. But. Right, so you can just state that the gravitational force is there, right? Like the redemptive force is there and that you have to step into it. And I am okay with that. I’m happy with that as well. I’m happy with that being the extent to which to push it, yeah. Yeah, so let’s kind of close it down. So, go ahead. Just in content, I feel like I definitely have to watch this back because we flew there and there, but I feel like at every point, I was getting somewhere from it. But the things that are silent at the moment are, I quite enjoyed the metaphor of kites and ships and different ways in which different people deal with the wind of life. Right, and I wanna introduce the word integrity there, right? So integrity is that which, basically that’s the internal consistency, right? And so if something has integrity, the more force it needs to be as weight. Like it can withstand more external things. Using the metaphor of the kite, the integrity there would be, let’s say the. It’s just one string. Like it’s just one string. Yes, exactly. Yes. And if you have two strings, right? If you have two strings on the kite, you can steer it. Right, you get a lot more control already. And then you have four strings and then it came forward and backward, right? Like, yeah. Yeah, so that’s a really useful imagery to in conversation with other people to discuss these ideas. Practically for me, it’s a foundation is very important. And those are the things that are easiest to fall away from are the spiritual disciplines, the word and prayer. For me, especially prayer, that’s the easiest one to go because I can just, I’ve got this relationship with prayer where because I can just pray in my head. I don’t, I’m not intentional with it, which the intentional ones are always more fruitful. So those foundations are the, I think you use like, tilling the ground, making room for facilitating the arena for growth. So those are the practical things. Learning of the dead would, yeah, all of that. And to go back to the metaphor of flying a kite, like I flew a kite and it wasn’t that big. And then there was a hard wind and it dragged me across the beach, right? So to talk about foundation, right? Like it’s that which holds you into place so that you can apply the steering on the kite. And like, I can tell you, if you’re getting dragged across the beach, it’s really hard to steer. And that kite is steering you instead. Yeah, at that point, the salt that’s added to the milk tastes just like the milk before the salt was added because the salt has no flavor, so there’s no anchor. Yeah, all of these images are a mashup of metaphors. They always are talking to you, but always enjoyable. Well, but maybe they get an integrity, right? Like that. Exactly right. So yeah, I think it’s important to realize that and to go back to the prophecy, right? When I was praying, one of the things that came up with me is to imbue me with the proper authority so that basically I can prophesize, right? Or asking for my pastor to get that, right? Because you have authority if you speak for something, right? Like you inherit the authority for what you’re speaking for, right? From the principle, like that justifies whatever you’re proclaiming. And so if… What’s the limit? What’s the upper bounds of the authority that you receive? Well, I think that’s calling for the integratedness again, right? Like so the more integrated you are, right? Or the spiritual, your soul is, right? So the spiritual structure that you’re relating to, the more integrated that is, the more authority comes together, right? You can apply the communion of different authorities to the same situation. Because you have the wisdom that allows you to order them. Correct? And then you always have to recognize that that ordering is not in your will, but in the will higher than it so that it can conform to that will. So that’s basically how I see it right now. Oh, yeah. There’s quite a few thoughts swirling through my brain and I’m just trying to come listen to something semi-intelligible. So firstly, that’s actually a good image of what’s currently going on in my mental palace. I am not, I think the first thing to say is I’m not a cessationist, is that what they’re called? The branch of Christianity that believes that the spiritual gifts died with the apostles, the early church apostles. So I grew up in a house where my auntie was a prophet and regularly prophesied at church and thus saith the Lord are words that are instilled in my brain forever. And I do think that the church needs to get more weird and there needs to be a boldness and a confidence that Christians, I was gonna say church people, but Christians actually engage and ask for these gifts the way it says. But yeah, those are the first. You need to proclaim the future, right? Like, and you claim it in advance because if you never do that, like how can it ever manifest, right? Like before you build a building, you make a blueprint. If you don’t make the blueprint, the building can’t exist. So like that also needs to happen in church. We need to make proclamations about how things are gonna be so that we can have a shared vision, right? We can share in the manifestation of the spirit. And if that never happens, right? Like, and in some sense, again, right? Because it’s true, it necessarily has to manifest anyway, right? But either we can have an intentional relationship to it, right? Or we can let it emerge, right? And then when we let things emerge, we get all of these wiggle rooms where all the spirits can seep in effectively. The reason the first question I asked was what’s the up and down to this is, I think it was my first day at speaker’s corner or one of the first few weeks I was there very early on anyway. I befriended this Muslim guy who was physically disabled. And his biggest, there were a lot of the main objections, Christianity at speaker’s corner, is the Trinity and other propositional arguments that happened. But his objection to Christianity was that I keep having these Christians tell me that they’ll pray for me and I’ll be healed and that I still am not healed. And I became friends with him as well as another Christian girl. And at some point during the day, he came up to me saying, telling me a story of a guy, this guy Sam that came up to him and told them very confidently that I have been given the gift of healing. And I know I have got the principles and I know how to apply them to enact the gift of healing in anyone. And he prayed for my friend and that didn’t work. And I later on met this guy and I was having a conversation with him. And he was very, first of all, probably the first yellow flag was that he told me it recently been kicked out of his church for them not applying the Bible in the way in which they would like them to. And he was speaking on similar terms to the way you are about, these promises are here and we should enact them and we should be more with and we should, these are gifts for us. And the Bible gives us principles in which we can align ourselves to that will give us the ability to do miracles and all these things. Long story last long, the Muslim guy is actually, I saw about a month or two later, he’s now a Christian, he’s currently going to church. He’s still not healed, but the way he became a Christian was just someone befriending him and kept dragging him to their church and now he really enjoys it. So that’s how I experienced the prayer and healing wasn’t the way that he turned towards Christianity. So that’s why I’m saying where’s the upper bound because we can in this box of modernity that we all still live in and interact with, we can apply, we can see these principles and read these promises and try to science them, master them in a way that there’s an algorithm to follow and we can just turn God into a formula like a recipe. So there’s always, yeah, so far, do you understand what I’m pointing to? Yeah, well, we can’t make God our path, right? I’m trying to, I’m sure there are multiple stories in the Old Testament, but not come to mind of people trying to act as if the God of Israel was like the other gods of neighboring nations that can be manipulated as such. And I think Christianity does need to be more weird and I think, I don’t know where the line is because I don’t want to say, I’m more than anything, I want to encourage more people like you, more people to ask and follow the revelations if they’re being pushed towards the spiritual gifts. But I also know that modernity is ordered in such a way that we can, the way it’s been applied can go wrong. Well, like with anything spiritual, right? Like you cannot be the final authority. And like I had this, well, I have this conversation with Sally a bunch and it’s like, like there’s a thing, a tension here, right? Because you have to act in faith. Like I don’t think it’s optional, right? Like you have to believe things, you have to believe. I said, I’ll very kick a garden of you. I said, I’ll very kick a garden of you. You have to either or. No, no, no, no, no, no, whatever. So you have to believe things in order for them to be manifested, at least to participate in the manifestation, right? Okay, so this is something that I’ve been like just believe comes before seeing, I think is what you’re saying. Or are you saying believe? No, not necessarily because you have revelations, right? Like revelations, you don’t like that’s against your belief in some sense, right? Like, or outside of your belief at least. Okay, so when you say you have to believe before. Like for example, right? Like when I go to school, I have to believe that school is good. I have to believe that I can participate in school. I have to believe that doing my homework is gonna help me finish school, right? If I don’t have these beliefs, I cannot have these participations, right? And then my participation in school is gonna fail because like I couldn’t act in faith with these beliefs. And so you, like a belief is a way to attend to the world, right? Like it’s creating salience, right? It’s creating something, well, it’s creating attention for revelation, for signs, right? And for wonders, you attend to the potential of their manifestation so that you can respond, right? And, or at least not be in the way when they happen, right? Because like if you’re standing in the way when something happens, you’ll close the door for it. Like I’ve had plenty of experiences where I became aware of something good that was happening inside of me. And because I became aware in the wrong way, right? I was suspicious of it, effectively, right? I squashed it instead of that I let it manifest. I could participate with it in faith, right? So we need to have certain beliefs so that we can be open to the world. We can be open in the right way so that when the blessing appears for us, right? Like when it manifests, we can, what’s it called? We can seize the opportunity. We can- What belief did you have that made you, that facilitated the ground for your repentance or your turning away from materialism towards theism? For example, right? Like I, there was, there’s these social opportunities, right? And so this is having a relationship to years to here, right? So a kid fell, right? And I’m like, what do I do, right? Like, what am I called to do in this moment, right? Like it’s a moment of crisis, like it’s hurt, it’s crying, what is the way that I contribute? And because I wasn’t, I didn’t believe or I didn’t know myself, right? That’s maybe a better word at that point, but that’s also related to belief, right? Because knowing yourself in a certain way is an implicit belief. I didn’t know how to enact that role, right? So I had to reason myself through the situation. And at a certain point that was like, oh, like I think someone even told me, like someone should get some ice. And I’m like, oh, yes, like I should get some ice. Like, why haven’t I thought of that, right? So now, right? Like when I would experience that again, my capacity to act would be completely different, right? Because my belief of who I am and what I’m capable of and what’s expected of me has changed. I think it’s Ian McGill, Chris. I think it’s a matter of things. Anyway, someone talks about our engagement with reality being as we see icons on a desktop and you’re talking about the software that enables you to see the icon. That’s the belief. Right, yes. I see plenty of people that discount, right? Like I could never do that, for example, right? That’s a lack of belief, right? So they close their opportunity for that action preemptively and they never reality check it, right? So that’s what a lack of belief does to you, right? And then there’s a different belief, right? So this is a belief, this is a known unknown, right? Like, so you know about the optionality, right? But you don’t know how it’s gonna go and you preemptively judge it as bad so you’d never engage with it. But then there’s also unknown unknowns, right? And that’s why the miracles are, right? Like that’s where the things that we couldn’t even conceive of are hidden. And in order to be receptive for that category, right? Like you have to go in with full faith, right? You just have to let it blast you and trust that it is good. Because like if you, like you can say like a drug trip, right? Like if you go on a drug trip and you’re expecting something bad for whatever reason, you’ll end up with a bad trip, right? And you literally end up in hell, right? Instead of having an awesome experience, you have an awful experience. And that’s a matter of faith in some sense, right? Like it’s the belief, right? Like what do you expect that’s coming, right? Like what are you looking for in your experience? Like how’s that coming at you? And then like, can you turn that towards the good or does it impose upon you, right? And sometimes you lose control. Like you’re being subjected to it. But I guess to go back to your turning away from situation where you’re trying to figure out what action to do next. Seeing the kid that fell to where you’re at now, okay, you’ve now got an internal software that guides and helps you to have less of combinator explosion. But the question is still like that openness to the unknown unknown. Was that something that you cultivated or was that just like a, okay, I’ll… Well, it’s both, right? Because you cultivate yourself to be receptive and then you still get overwhelmed in the moment, right? So it’s both. Like there’s a part of your contribution and then there’s a part from God and they both need to be there. Yeah, I asked that because I’ve got, I was speaking to someone in the S3 meeting. Paul’s coming back to the UK in a couple of weeks and she was telling me how she almost felt like, oh, like a kid turning up to school without having done their own work. And she shared a sort of spiritual, really cool spiritual experience she had last year during, whilst Paul was here. And she was opened up at that point, she was, oh, am I becoming Christian? And a year later, she’s still where she was and feeling a little bit like this. Yeah, just not happy with it. But also like thinking maybe it’s just not for me, which is understandable. So I’m asking, as you’ve gone from outside to end, and what did you also have this process of thinking, oh, wait, am I becoming Christian or I don’t feel it yet? Or what was that? Yeah. Oh, for me, yeah. I definitely had… So… Well, I’m not thinking in those terms. Like I actually had a date recently and she asked me, what do you see when you look at me? And I’m like, that’s not the way. That’s a great question to ask on a date, I love that. Good for you. But I was like, that’s not what I do. Like I see what I need to see. Like I’m reacting to what’s there. Like I’m not seeing you, I’m seeing what I’m relating to. So… Yeah, it’s like, it’s the same with Christianity, right? It’s like, okay, like I’m now reading to this part of the Bible or I’m getting this sermon or whatever, right? And what I’m trying to do is to the best of my ability, be present with that. And like, I can see it in myself, right? Like sometimes my mind goes to a place and then it’s like, like how’s what my mind is doing contributing to my participation. And like, if I realize that it’s not good, which is almost all of the time, then I stop doing it. And if it’s good, then it’s in the spirit, right? And in some sense, I’m not even self-aware, right? Like I’m not really thinking, but it’s going with the flow, right? It’s not thinking, it’s basically like the boat going on the stream or something. And I’ve learned to recognize, I guess, in some sense, when I’m frustrating, right? Like when I’m frustrating what is happening versus when I’m trying to find the good in what is happening. I’m doing this to all of my participation. So like, it’s the same in the day, right? Like, so I’m not seeing what is, I’m looking in the potential, right? I’m trying to lift up what’s happening to the best of my ability. So like, in some sense, I’m always in hope, right? Like I’m always relating to the future, like the potential. I’m dying to know, what was her response to your answer? Well, yeah, well, it was a loaded question, right? Well, I don’t know if that’s the correct use of the word loaded question, but it was a motivated question, right? Yeah. Because she was fishing for an answer in me. Because I agree in some sense, it’s a really good question, right? Like, what do you think? In some sense, it’s a really good question, right? Like, what do you see? But also, I don’t like it because, well, I’ve had a bunch of conversations like, what’s your favorite color or whatever, right? Oh, no, no, no. That’s, I think, what’s your favorite color is a bad question. What do you see, I think is a great question. Like, what lens are you wearing and what do you see the world through? Yeah, it is a good way to diagnose a person, right? But diagnosing a person is also collapsing them to a single identity. And so that’s the part I don’t like. It is like, I don’t wanna be the person that looks at you that way. I wanna be the person that’s capable of loving. Friends like, so. That’s a better answer than the one you gave. Yeah, well, now I have the answer. Now I have a better chance of. What do you see? I wanna be the person that’s capable of loving you, so I’m gonna close my mouth. Oh, gosh. That’s brilliant. Now, I think there’s a way to deliver that and make it. What do you see? I don’t ask questions. I don’t, what was your response? I don’t look at you that way. I don’t see things that way. Yeah, no, I respond to what I’m called to do. What’s asked of me, right? Like that’s how I see you. Are you telling me something? Then I’m seeing you as the teller. Are you listening to me? Then I see you as someone I need to connect to, I need to relate to. It’s like, that’s the way I see it. Oh, that is so funny. Let’s get more awkward to you. Do you love me? I love you. Why, thank you. I love you too. I think we can close on that note. This has been so great. I think we covered all bases, at least enough of them. Yeah, let’s get some feedback and keep this conversation. I will pay the full instruction. Thanks for watching and I’ll see you in the next episode.