Contemplation, Reflection and Rumination Live Navigation (4HoOi3L-pVk)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=4HoOi3L-pVk

young girl dancing to the latest beat has found new ways to move her feet and the lonely young man speaking in the city square trying to tell somebody that he can you play what is true the other ones that you’ll call in love gonna be the leaders in a little while what is true it’s all world’s waking to a newborn babe and I solemnly swear it’ll be their way you better help that voice of you find what is true and the lonely voice of you cries what is true all right well I thought I fixed that video but I did not fix either my intro video or my camera correctly but I’m here now so welcome good to see everybody man I do not like how my camera is set up at all today my bad much better we’ll go with that good to see everybody we got our Sam Pal we’ve got our muppet cup have you considered you should we’ve got some junk list cinnamon roll delicious and of course we have some tea from the Table Rock Tea Company bear claw ah pungent delicious I love bear claw it’s quite good we’re gonna be talking about contemplation reflection and rumination and hopefully I can do a good job of this I had a lot of help thank you to Adam and Casey and Sally and Michelle as always for helping me with the with the monologue here because I always struggle with these things but I’m glad I choose this topic but it was a good one and yeah it’s gonna be fun and interesting I think and hopefully it will be helpful to people and make some toast for rumination you you may make some toast for rumination yes you can even put some rumination on it if you want so I was contemplating how I participate in this live pirate stream that I do here for you with you what it means to be in this situation of wearing this outfit and how it affects my day all the things I move around like dinner dinner early on Fridays to make this happen further I I think about how the stream impacts my relationship with the world with the people around me my time obviously is big impact on my time right I think about where I am now versus where I was and sometimes I don’t really think so much about that when I’m contemplating contemplation is contrast of here and now what are the connections the relationships that are impacted by my participation in this event how are those relationships impacted by me spending my time doing this which is a gift to all of you not say it’s not also a gift to me it’s not also say I don’t get gifts from it but I set it up as a gift to all of you that’s my contemplation and then I was reflecting on what it took for me to get here to be doing this stream with this outfit the drawing on the board how it has changed my attitude about streaming how the live stream contrasts the recorded videos and yet enhances them how my relationship to other people’s live streams has changed right you get more appreciation for the struggles especially with sound which is hard lighting which is almost as hard probably what is the impact to me while I’m doing this how does this help my life and at what cost because trade-offs there is always a cost reflection is in relation to time relative to this time or a contrast of time looking at the thing over time one time versus another time so for example I could say how long have I been doing these live streams how has it changed right or I could say huh the live stream I did four weeks ago how is that different from this live stream another reflection might be on what scale of time am I thinking about this am I accounting for the passage of time as a method of sense making and note that between contemplation and reflection only the perspective has changed not so much the questions there’s still the same basic questions right the how what where wise don’t change but the perspective on them does and upon contemplation and reflection about these streams I decided to ruminate on why I’m wearing a pirate outfit like what what caused that does it still hold true to the telos to the purpose of the stream is there a different outfit I should or could be wearing is the interaction of the relationships with this live stream in this live stream worthwhile is it doing this still a good idea and what should I look for to know that something has changed to make it no longer a good idea to make it no longer worth my time or to make a change to it could I spend this time towards a better effect given the impact on my week what are the negatives to doing this stream how could it be better are people getting something out of this or should I just do more recorded videos I always tell myself I’m gonna do recordings on Friday and I don’t think I’ve ever managed to do one because I’m prepping for this is a cost and how am I relating to the people here how does all this relate to my other content and this is more clear when you consider the relationships you have over time with the past with the future rumination is a contrast of assumptions of perspective of framing how you get to the bottom of your axiomatic assumptions and test them or train them you play with that you experiment so my proposal here is that contemplation relates to your perspective on that which is around you will say in the moment the same questions of what hi ha what how why etc. from today whereas the reflection relates to your relative time perspective both past and future and the various ways to contrast that same questions what how I wear etc. right and the rumination is all about that sense of play moving around the assumptions you’ve made the assumptions you could make testing playing with trying out new assumptions new ways of thinking about what you’re doing and that is what play is it’s not assuming that you know but testing reimagining trying things out failing over and over again to find out what’s good and what’s bad and what’s better and what’s worse that’s what play is play is that approach with innocence not ignorance in no sense those are different things different words for a reason and you know Peterson talks about we’ve lost play verveky talks about quote serious play which is ridiculous is just play and the importance of these of play the importance of these things yeah they’re important they’re important for reasons and those reasons are important we have to be able to challenge ourselves and that’s what rumination is about reflection and contemplation are less about that no more about just playing with perspective right ones a heavy on the connections perspective the other one is heavy on the time perspective but rumination is about flipping the tables and you’re using this new perspective new assumptions new axioms to provide contrast with the perspective that you had doesn’t mean you won’t go right back to that perspective maybe it’s the best one already at least of the ones you can think of today or whenever you’re ruminating you are allowing the old ideas to die off in your imagination first so you can form new ideas and new perspectives and new axioms right that’s burning off the dead wood Peterson talks about that you can imagine what the world would be like something you took for granted were different and we all have to take things for granted we all have to start somewhere we have to stand somewhere to do things when do we go back and say hey what about where I was standing where I started from is that okay is it the best place to stand was that the best place to start maybe if the outcome wasn’t what I expected I should be questioning that instead of saying I got a bad outcome it’s your fault or it’s the world’s fault or it’s politics fault or it’s economics faults capitalism it’s whatever rumination is the thing that allows you to reconsider your involvement your connectedness your axiomatic and assumptions that may be limiting you maybe the only holding you back is you that’s almost always the case by the way not always but like almost always and once you do this you’re now more free to consider how you framed things you can poke at the idea of perspective itself you can move to a different layer of analysis as dr jordan b peterson might say and that I think is the key difference I just want to highlight the idea of rumination was not well formed in my head until mature pichot brought it up on twitter and I was like oh that’s interesting because I just had never really thought about it it’s not that I don’t contemplate reflect and ruminate I certainly do and I didn’t really understand how to frame all the things I was doing and the rumination piece was the hardest to understand because again it’s not like contemplation and reflection which aren’t questioning axioms necessarily although they might lead you in that direction but they’re not for that whereas rumination is for that for that whereas rumination is for that that’s what it’s supposed to do I think that’s the best way to think about it we can have objections and whatever I’m just trying to give you tools that help right and now I know it’s sort of a little late to talk about this in some ways but we often see one or more of these patterns in the lead-up to the new year right so the idea of looking at where you are now contemplation reflecting on the past the top 10 best songs of the year lists right or whatever and considering new ways to approach the upcoming year that new year’s resolutions right these are deep patterns and they are innate in us right they’re not sort of culturally ginned up and enforced or forced on us they are instantiated in traditions and those traditions get reinvented for some weird reason it might be a pattern that we have to navigate or something but we’ve lost the impact and the engagement we’ve you know the participation with them the proper partition weight participation with them we’ve flattened them down to new year’s resolutions and top 10 lists and especially active participation you know we aren’t taking these things seriously anymore like so many things the idea of quote secularization has disconnected things in the world from their relationship to the world it has cheapened participation it’s another form of flattening the world so the way in which we engage with this because they’re all relationships has become one of ownership you don’t own your relationships you participate in them i know you want to own your relationships that would be wonderful but you can’t and it’s definitional so you don’t get to decide if somebody’s going to cooperate with you you don’t get to force somebody to be part of your group you don’t get to get somebody the way you want them that’s not up to you in my proposal as to why this stuff is you know complicated you know basically we don’t want to take the time to contemplate reflect and ruminate in the proper way but if we even consider it at all right that that’s a miracle right like wow somebody considered contemplating what they did today or reflecting on their behavior or reflecting on a result that they got or didn’t get oh why why why wasn’t that person nice to me well well maybe you weren’t nice to them why did i think that person attacked me when all they did was ask me a question all right what was going on in my head that’s a good question and it should be done deliberately it should be a practice done with intent having time set aside just to tie this into things you might have heard recently setting aside time intentionality towards an end or a t loss is making something sacred so actually approaching something as though it should be a practice as though it should be done with care right so it should be intentional and then setting aside that time putting your energy towards it attending to it maybe that’s making something sacred maybe that’s how you make sacred that’s how you sanctify things and maybe you should be careful when you do that with and what you do it with and maybe that contemplation reflection rumination helps you do that so what good are these three things this contemplation reflection rumination why should i pay my time energy and attention to doing them because they help you to properly engage in the world they are all about a relationship how you relate to the things around you you’re starting to pay attention not to you and your feelings but to you and your relationships and how your feelings affect those relationships and how your feelings are affected by those relationships and it’s a good feature to have and how do you relate to that which is around you now how do you relate to that which is around you through time the things that you have now how are they related to the past and the future how do you test those relationships to see if they can be improved what can you do to make it better did we hear that person correctly earlier today did we hear that person correctly earlier today did we give them the benefit of the doubt were we using a charitable interpretation did we see evil and ignore it because we were using a charitable interpretation did we ask for clarification were we looking for something that we didn’t get is that why we got upset did we find joy or happiness in an emotion unconnected to the things around us but all this self-stuff unconnected is not enough remember i described all of these as relationship connections outside of you it’s anti-solipsistic it’s the opposite of sophistry but it’s easy for us to fall into ourselves to declare things outside of your experience or your experience or your emotions as the enemy rather than as a friend and this is not an answer right i’m not proposing hey you contemplate reflect and ruminate and all your problems are solved or a certain set of problems are solved i’m not saying that at all i’m saying it’s just another part of the stuff you need thinking about things and your relationship to them but also informing from outside asking questions answering questions we outsource our sanity as my friend pastor paul says this is important if contemplation reflection and rumination don’t account for outside information then you’re fooling yourself you’re self-referencing you’re caught in a trap of your own making and unable to receive the help that you need that we all need to properly transform mere transformation isn’t enough we must avoid evil we must do this actively and these tools help when deployed properly which is beyond us now which is why we need others so let’s cooperate and contemplate and reflect and ruminate on doing just that undoing just that let’s focus on our relationship to the things around us how that’s affected by time what assumptions did we make that caused the reactions that we got to be not what we expected what was our part in those reactions what did we hear that wasn’t said or what were we listening for that we wanted to hear that we didn’t and how did that impact us i do a great deal of contemplation reflection rumination and i i often ask people in my circle which you know if you don’t know about this that’s because you’re not in the circle dummy hey this happened what do you think i could have done differently see i i go through that process all the time i’m very grateful to adam today because i went through an early draft of the first part well yeah i added to a bunch of this just before the stream and the first part of my monologue here and he just flat out said now i don’t understand what you’re saying it’s like what wait huh and then he told me yeah you’re not differentiating these correctly and he was right i reread it and i went oh this is garbage i have to fix it now i’m not sure now i’m not sure how much better i made it i’ll let you guys decide if i made clear made clear delineation between contemplation reflection rumination you can tell me in the live stream comments here but that’s sort of process that goes on here on navigating patterns with the group because there is a group i don’t do this alone by myself on my own i can’t i know that i get feedback all the time and maybe contemplation reflection and rumination are the process of relating ourselves finding the right connection to the world right that relationship again of manifesting meaning in the world and paying attention to the meaning we manifest in the world and part of the problem is in our overly efficient hyper optimized world we have thrown this process out we don’t take time to sit to consider to contemplate to reflect to ruminate on our situation on the world around us and how we are participating in it and how we should participate in it do we pay attention to israel hamas and palestine how much attention do we pay to israel hamas and palestine or ukraine or any number of the african countries that are going through similar strife or the situation in taiwan or hong kong or china in general or in a state far away where we don’t vote and maybe it’s not zero i’m not saying zero maybe it is zero though contemplate reflect and ruminate i don’t know but maybe the fact that we’re not doing this anymore causes us to lose our ability to participate properly in the world to know what proper participation looks like and feels like and sounds like maybe you shouldn’t pay attention to the starving children in africa right now because maybe your neighbors are hungry and you can fix that and look all of this is really just to say set aside some time to contemplate reflect and ruminate and to that end i’m going to contemplate and reflect and ruminate a bit myself and ruminate a bit myself look there’s a lot of craziness out there people are delusional about a lot of things it doesn’t matter which side of the issue you’re on you always think the people on the other side of the issue if the issue only has two sides and it never does are the crazy ones so whichever way you cut it there’s a lot of craziness out there because we’re not contemplating reflecting and ruminating we’re getting involved in arguing and convincing and trying to manipulate trying to have trying to control things trying to justify trying to get validated that’s what we’re spending most of our time on i don’t want you to think yet my monologue opening was some kind of a trick i did the contemplation the reflection and rumination and then i wrote about it i didn’t write down the details obviously it’s not important in some way but what is important is that we understand that there’s a danger to contemplation to reflection to rumination especially in things like meditation right especially because it’s easy to fall into a pattern where we are engaged in something that just reinforces our existing beliefs you can always find somebody on the internet because the internet is full of people that will agree with your point of view that’s not very hard and in fact you can probably find several people that agree with your point of view should you what if you’re all deluded because you might be and i know it probably makes you feel better to be around people who agree with you i mean that works for most people but is that good for you is it good for them is it good for anyone maybe we need to be challenged as much as we can be maybe outsourcing your sanity is more important than validating your current beliefs maybe engaging in challenging situations and really talking things through with people and listening to them and did you did you go back did you rewatch that video it’s hard to watch videos you’re already in i try to avoid watching my videos again they’re horrible but sometimes you have to you have to oh maybe i didn’t say what i thought i said or maybe my engagement wasn’t as positive as it should have been or maybe i didn’t hear what the other person said and they were actually just speaking evil maybe maybe i just felt good but actually i should have felt bad yeah maybe because that happens and i see it happen all the time and that’s the scary part people all the time are engaging in the experience of being in the world all the time are engaging in these fantasies that they clearly have going in their head they’re not engaging in the world and that’s what the complaint is that’s always what the complaint ends up being who’s the bad guy is it russia or is it ukraine is it palestine is it israel or is it hamas was it lizard people running the white house that’s always what it comes down to did you notice that did you contemplate that did you reflect upon it have you tested your axioms ruminated deeply on how you got here on how you might get out on how you might get better because you can’t transform to a good end by yourself to a good end by yourself can’t do it the odds that you will transform towards evil are just much greater that’s why we outsource our sanity that’s why we need other people that’s why we need help it’s not that mysterious really that’s why mere contemplation or mere reflection or mere rumination or merely all three of those won’t work it’s good to pay attention if you’re doing it correctly if you’re paying attention to those connections those relationships but it’s no good if you’re doing it by yourself it’s no good if you don’t say hey i think i saw this what did you see and maybe if people won’t explicitly agree with you maybe they don’t agree maybe if they can’t make a positive statement on their own maybe if all they can do is say oh yes maybe if they can’t restate your point in their own words maybe they can’t agree maybe that’s not possible or maybe they said something there was clear conflict with what you said and they said well i don’t mean to be difficult well i don’t mean to be difficult i don’t mean to disagree but they did and that’s actually more important and maybe if you give them a free pass and say i don’t know i understand that you don’t disagree when they did maybe that’s bad bad for you and bad for them and bad for everybody else maybe it’s worth sort of considering consideration that’s somewhat what this is about excuse me so yeah i don’t see much going on in the chat what do we got i see a lot of talk of tea which i like and tea brands and instant cappuccino but you know is nice but anything on contemplation reflection rumination or delusion which is what contemplation reflection rumination should help fight your own personal delusions lazarus contemplation reflection rumination reminds me of centering prayer and i dig it yeah well yeah i mean prayer is certainly an important component to these things because i mean i think it’s beyond all of them obviously right because it’s more a conversation with with something higher than you and all thought is not that right just because you’re thinking doesn’t mean you’re in communion with the ineffable or something crazy that’s kind of crazy talk but it might be important right and it might be important that you differentiate those things and taking time to do those things is good certainly right councilman i think of contemplation chiefly in religious terms as etymologically related to temple yeah i think yeah it you can think of it in religious terms i mean obviously i try to avoid that but uh fair game andre what do we got i contemplated on my delusions of late and post reflection stopped my ruminations i know that’s bad wording yes well and it’s a good point though like you can over ruminate like you can just keep you know using rumination as self-doubt and then keep self-doubting i’m going well what if i had done it that way what if i had done it that way that’s actually a form of rumination it’s just not a healthy one so i’m glad you brought it up because i didn’t put that in there uh but yeah i mean you can get stuck in contemplation and reflection too you should be in constant reflection mode and then you’re not dealing with the here and now anymore then you’re not dealing with the here and now anymore and then what are you doing it’s like well and that happens to people uh certainly on their spiritual quests or whatever it’s very dangerous lazarus said something early on that made me think about how difficult it can be to find a group of people adhering to basic tenets of the tradition regardless of the kind of group yeah well and it’s hard to recognize too because sometimes uh well just go to different churches right like or better yet go to different churches that actually have a lasting tradition right like different orthodox churches or different catholic churches you’ll see different groups of people adhering to the basic tenets of the tradition differently but they’re adhering to the basic tenets of the tradition and that’s really confusing for people right but uh but it happens and you can see it and you can see the difference too like because there is one right that difference is real anselmend christian contemplation begins with active practice and moves into higher sense of god’s presence you are passive and have infused contemplation now i wish you could just infuse contemplation i’d like a transfusion of contemplation certainly contemplation helps us to to get to a point where we’re able to recognize our need for transformation class punk i think sakuti’s forced contemplation on other people to cope with his annoying wife or maybe to act as their annoying wife i mean everything that sort of disagrees with you can be annoying right but is that bad i think we get confused when we privilege happiness over betterment of the self do you think those two things are somehow correlated and they’re not at all um i don’t think you can even make the statement that if it makes you happy it can’t be transforming you in a good way like no and we do we do get confused about those things like what’s the difference between reminding somebody and nagging them i mean that’s seriously like i don’t know and i’m and am i saying that it sometimes doesn’t cross the line no i just don’t know where the line is and i don’t think you do either but you know maybe you do i think that’s you know that’s one of those things you got to reflect on when did this become nagging and and are you doing that like are you actively going through that process because that’s what’s important is having a practice around these things so that you are doing them are doing them but hey if anyone wants to jump in feel free and uh we can talk about anything but you know the topic of the day is still contemplation reflection rumination we’re happy to go wherever explore whatever i think is really important to uh to have practices right whether they’re prayer practices or contemplation practices or even meditation for some people who like that although meditation gets awfully solipsistic awfully fast awfully self-referential you know but if your highest value is you know highest value is you know happiness or lack of conflict or something then the march to solipsism is not a long one let me put it that way class punk i sipped some whiskey so i had to crack jokes about athenian philosophers in fair we uh we welcome jokes about athenian philosophers at least on occasion we can contemplate their philosophical ways if we wish and uh yeah i mean what do we do for practices i don’t think a lot of people have practices that they kind of sit down and and pay attention to what happened what was happening how it happened what they could do better why they didn’t get the outcome they expected and a lot of people like it’s really hard really really hard to get people to understand that the end of the day sometimes you’re delusional you heard things that weren’t said or you misheard things entirely or you misunderstood things or you misinterpreted things this is why interpreting books like playdoh’s republic by yourself is dangerous you should talk that through with other people and actually talk it through or not make statements and then everyone goes oh ah oh very nice i agree that’s not talking things through that’s a fan club there’s nothing wrong with fan clubs you don’t want to rely on them and i think a lot of people get into the rely on the fan club problem where they’re just like yeah i’m just gonna a fan club says nice things so i’m just gonna think nice things oh anselman’s on it anselman being alone and quiet in nature by a lake or among trees and flowers is a kind of contemplation i practice so that’s good yeah i often contemplate in nature right you want to get out contrast i think it would do me no good to contemplate my live stream while sitting at my desk you know i should not be in these clothes i should not be in my office i should not be in my house i should be outside and i’m fortunate i don’t need a lake i have a pond just go out back it’s right there go out on the kayak or my boat if i ever get it someone stole an entire delivery palette from amazon i only know this because they were supposed to deliver my boat a week and a half ago and they didn’t and we went down there and while we were there getting ready to you know standing in line getting ready to get up to the desk and say hey where’s my package the woman that was already at the desk was saying oh yeah yeah no no no it says according to amazon it arrived on july 11th and i was like that’s when my package arrived at the post office and yeah it was uh interesting and then they told us oh a bunch of packages are missing and the way it works is we get a palette and we scan the top of the palette and then we know it arrived at our location and if it we scan it it says it arrived if it doesn’t scan it didn’t arrive somebody hijacked the truck or something like that at least that palette is gone so me and a bunch of other people didn’t get their packages so yeah that’s how it works lazarus can you think of a term like game theory without the systematic mathematical connotations i think a relational wisdom group would be cool to find well we’re working on making wisdom groups yeah i mean don’t think about game theory it’s a mathematic system you know it’s designed for math that’s how it’s uh that’s how it functions you know it’s not it’s a mathematical discipline um it’s not designed to be relational it’s designed to be a map a game theory is a mapping system to take behavior and make it into mathematics and the problem with something like game theory is that it deliberately reduces or flattens or compresses down to math and yet when you try it it gets combinatorially explosive pretty quick um and when it when it gets combinatorially explosive it just turns out and like john nash knew this he wrote about this a lot of these people talking about game theory they’ve never read the papers by the way i have at least some of them like game theory very quickly to buy a to buy bread game theory very quickly turns into uh advanced uh algebra or trigonometry very quickly and obviously that’s not how we’re thinking like we don’t actually think that way right uh i can’t do calculus in my head at all so the fact that i can’t uh is a good indication that that’s not what’s happening something else something something else something better might be happening but game theory is a bad way to think about the world um period jasmon welcome oh hello nice to see you how are you doing i’m good it’s maybe i should turn on some lights you’re a little low i can barely hear you um maybe if i adjust my headphones can you hear me better now yeah that’s much better okay i’m gonna turn on the lights with me ah excellent how are you how are you i’m doing good how are you doing um i’m good i’m just i was just cleaning my church and oh beautiful good background i think excellent background i love it so yeah i i i just wanted to say about contemplation is i get stuck in it like you were saying and it um what has helped me is is just asking what people need and then trying to help them with it and and getting out of that that self-centered uh aspect but the but i i do think that it is necessary and what the the temple aspect of it having having that time to tempo tempo and temple are related temperature that that regulation aspect of it where i find myself either just getting caught in in the speed of of life and just sort of saying yes doing all these things and um and that is good but then i find myself going where you know where am i i i get uh so it’s it’s that regulative force where it’s like so it’s it’s that regulative force where it’s like i need that time that that space and time to slow down and think and just maybe having the routine of having a contemplation every week i mean it makes sense that we have to go to church every week you give that time to slow down and really think what is important actually so the the speed of of of regulating the speed of your of your life basically the type of contemplation i guess that’s the positive use of it yeah yeah no i like that yeah i mean i like everything else you know again i’m not here to give people answers i’m just telling them like things to attend to roughly speaking but what attending to means is discernment like you have to discern how much contemplation how much reflection how much rumination and why and am i doing it correctly right like those are important things to pay attention to because people get caught in contemplation all the time where they just stuck in their head right but they also ignore it and then they’re not taking seriously you know what did i hear things what i was i engaging correctly like you have to account for all these things and so i you know i appreciate you sharing that that’s those are some good insights class punk welcome sir hey good to see you finally yeah hi well i i bit the bullet and came on camera so thank you it seems like a really contemplation reflection and rumination seems like a kind of a difficult topic so it’s seems uh tempting to uh talk about yeah i mean i thought it was time and like i said early on like i totally screwed up the monologue and i read it out and people were like what and i was like uh-oh you know i’m in deep here so but it sounds like at least you know some people have gotten the flavor of what i was after so that so that’s good but yeah i’m not probably should have stressed more of the negatives at the same time and maybe i didn’t do a good enough job of that so we yeah i mean fire away what you got uh well um and it’s i i was actually struggling with uh the difference between the terms just i get it’s usually a good idea to start with the terms especially if you don’t understand them i was still kind of i watched i listened to the monologue but i was uh struggling still with how you might uh define the terms differently okay so for me the point i was trying to get across is you know and i like i like what anselman said here so anselman you you you do need to come away from the noise and clamor for contemplation yeah i think for reflection too and rumination like i think stepping out and getting that contrast right in nature in particular for me maybe other people it’s just a blank room that’s fine too like i’m not not going to judge you maybe it’s a church right whatever works for you is fine by me right but getting out of your normal place and then the contemplation is about the contrast between we’ll say what happened and what your expectations were right so okay you’re asking the same questions um what happened why did it happen how did things go down and maybe maybe just like wow like just the wonder at huh you know like like i read out the the monologue and uh you know the the the folks on the discord server on the market wisdom discord server with me are wonderful right adam was just like nah nope you’re not making any sense this isn’t this isn’t clear enough and i was like okay that’s good you know like and and can i do that for myself well i did like i’ve been writing this stupid thing all week i just and i didn’t do a good enough job and that was part of what i highlighted at the end here which i which i wrote fresh in the past couple of hours right which was don’t be thinking that your contemplation reflection rumination is enough either right you have to check with other people like did i see this correctly did i right whereas with reflection specifically that’s a contrast in time right so you’re asking the same questions again but you’re like how is this live stream different from last week’s live stream or from the best live stream that i had or from the most watched live stream that i have that’s a more of a reflection right because it’s through time does that make sense yeah so there’s um so contemplation yeah it’s basically is more present moment reflection has to do with different with more with memory maybe yes future well and your predictions and and future future probabilities future predictions right right so you might contemplate oh i thought when i when i had this conversation that everybody would immediately understand the the differences that i was highlighting right and then i i contemplate oh no class punk comes on and he says even your second attempt which was much clearer wasn’t good enough right and then so i’m going to think about that later right let’s let’s put me in the future i’m thinking about that later going huh okay well how could i have done that differently now that’s different from from reflection where i might say what should what should in my next live stream where i touch on say just contemplation all by itself maybe i maybe i’m thinking about doing that live stream what what things from this contemplation reflection rumination live stream should i do differently like that’s a reflection back on the live stream to project into the future how to do another one like that’s a reflection not so much a contemplation right because it involves the time frame changing so what perspective are you changing i’m changing a perspective of when i was in the moment i thought i was doing x and then these things happen that i didn’t expect that’s contemplation when i when i was in the moment right what that that’s contemplation but when you’re like okay how how did my interaction like go wrong oh okay in the past i didn’t account for this right or in the future i want to do this how can i take my past experience right those are reflections because you’re changing the perspective of time all right i understand that cool so rumination uh rumination yeah whether b how would that fit in based on so it’s it’s different from the other two entirely uh and this is mature pachaud and i might be writing what he said wrong right but oh that’s all right he under from what i understood of what he said you’re questioning your actions right so now you’re going back and you’re saying all right forget about the time component forget about my expectations in the moment forget about you know all of that right let me engage with whether or not i had the right attitude coming in in when i when i did this was i doing this say for my own purposes to help people out or was i doing this because i wanted to highlight mature peugeot’s wonderful uh framing or my understanding of it i i don’t know right like that’s rumination you you have to test those things out and see whether or not that that happened and uh look i mean i want to i want to give i want to give further okay so dangerous business questioning right so rumination you know can be dangerous and and again that’s why the danger is in not getting outside you know sanity checks from other people right so so i came up with this idea well this term called flaw manning uh just this idea of just a as a shorthand for looking for flaws in an argument whatever that might mean so that sounds like pretty much like a synonym for rumination it can be yeah well flaws in your own argument or flaws in your own assumption or flaws in your own approach like you’re you’re you’re you’re looking at yourself in this case and and your relationship like okay how did my assumption that when i said this it would have this impact how could that have been wrong how could that have been not helping my cause like okay i assumed when i wrote the first draft of this thing that that it was clear and it just wasn’t and i’m glad i didn’t have to ruminate on it i could just ask somebody i had a few beers and some whiskey so that might be why i didn’t might be why i didn’t pick up perfectly on the monologue so i don’t want to say that i don’t know it could be it could be my fault it’s all fine like it but there’s you know but that’s what this is for like people could come on and actually ask me whether it’s in the you know in the live stream comments which are welcome or right here which is better in my opinion right and then i can and then i can figure out and then later i will probably contemplate reflect and ruminate on the live stream as i often do and and and i also get feedback it’s one of the frustrating things is you know certain people you ask for feedback on they’re like oh yeah it was very good and i’m like what did you like and what did you not like and they don’t that’s fine that’s common right but but you have to do that yourself too and and i think that’s important i want to i want to address this anselman how would you relate slash differentiate meditation from contemplation well look my thoughts on meditation are what we would call nuance right well i think i think you said mediation did he oh mediation yeah to it to and from uh contemplation uh but but again like these things are tricky like you you know you kind of see that like when you when you are thinking about things which is already dangerous enough as father eric pointed out in a particular way for a particular purpose that’s one thing when you’re trying to like work something out um ah see he did mean meditation i thought so oh um that’s why i read it that way because i can read mine sometimes especially scottish minds because i’ve been to edinburgh um the the difference is what are you doing and why are you doing it and so a lot of meditation is dangerously solipsistic because what happens is you think you’re doing something for yourself by yourself and one of the things that i really liked about john bravicki’s meditation series which is more or less how pretty much all of this happens at the end of the day um is he starts by pointing out to you that when you close your eyes and you try to quiet your mind you actually can’t do that right and he uses the monkey mind analogy he’s not the only one but he uses the monkey mind analogy to point out to you that there’s stuff going on in your head you don’t understand that you’re not aware of that is not completely within your control and that’s important to realize but also because you’re deeply stuck in that uh and you’re engaging in that in that way it’s a very hard and i will say this most people won’t try to meditate half the people that try to meditate absolutely cannot do it they just can’t it meditations a terrible terrible like solution for a lot large numbers of people and then most of those people aren’t going to do it correctly anyway most of the people that can engage and will engage and i mean we had a wonderful group on the awakening from meaning crisis server because they all sat we sat daily we sat seven days a week twice a day for like over a year and then it was once a day for the next two two two and a half years something like that before it all blew up uh you know so so that sort of idea you’re not necessarily looking at perspectives you’re engaging with what’s in your head and that’s super dangerous like that’s way more dangerous than than uh than uh rumination even right because because you’re stuck in your head i think it’s a i think it might i would um say that um that the contemplation reflection rumination all involve mental chatter and meditation is attempting to get to a place or or gaps in mental chatter in some way i would i would think that’s a good distinction to make too yeah sure yeah meditation specifically engaging in reducing mental chatter uh but i think things like contemplation and reflection rumination which are hard like i’m not trying to say like everybody can do this no you you’ve got to try you’ve got to practice you’ve got to keep at it you know it’s like journaling journaling is even easier i would say right but you’ve got to keep at it you’ve got to make it a practice um but they’re much less uh dangerous than this meditation because just when you’re in your head you’re in fantasy land and there’s nothing wrong with it you need that you need the imaginal realm you need to be able to think about things you need to place your ideas to be tested out so they can die so you don’t have to as peterson says right but also if you’re there you got to be careful like you just well you have to be really careful going along with that um uh verveckis talked about higher states of consciousness i prefer i prefer i prefer saying maybe altered states of consciousness yes the kind because without trying to go into why but um i think if if you are able to to put people in those states if you’re a good enough teacher like someone in india you could you can take mental chatter that might not have anything scientifically to do with those states and then form some kind of cult-like structure and so that goes along with the danger well and they do they do no i i think you know you’re right on it really like one of the problems is people say higher state of consciousness and that’s a cute shorthand but it’s an automatic deception right because a changing consciousness might be higher it might be equal or it might be lower how do i know i don’t know so people read a changing consciousness and they say oh well this must be higher consciousness because that’s all everybody anybody ever talks about nobody ever talks about lower consciousness it’s implied but it’s never discussed no one ever talks about orthogonal consciousness where your consciousness changes but you’re no better or worse off nobody ever talks about that but they’re all changes and so they’re just assuming like oh any change is higher consciousness and what other assumption can you have because you can’t that you can’t differentiate they don’t talk about how to differentiate because you can’t like my argument is that you can’t self-transformation is the most ridiculous thing i’ve ever heard of right the fact that you’re changing all the time is irrelevant and so you can always make the argument well transformation is happening all the time i agree but is it good right that’s why the good matters like is the transformation you’re going through good and the only way you know that for sure is with the feedback of other people like is my monologue good something like that um there’s a problem because you have like these like mate like for it for example maybe they’re mostly in india where you have you might have people legitimately you might have a lot of people clustered in a cult-like structure having like these altered states of consciousness and they feel really good and whatever and there’s no drugs involved but there’s not a distributed cognition there’s not a scientific test a testing or philosophical testing um grounded and probability deduction to to really figure out how how this could go where how this could go off the rails and not be for the good but it’s a little off topic because it’s like maybe you could say there needs to be like contemplation maybe needs to be paired with conversation yeah you can’t just contemplate you need to maybe bring your contemplations to someone like you’re saying it right needs to and also just on the i just wanted to say on the ruminations thing uh you you didn’t i don’t know if you mentioned that matthew says it could also mean making songs about something and uh and you were saying that it it sort of is like defining your axioms or redefining your axioms or redefining your axioms and getting those straight and i i just i wanted to say that it that makes a lot of sense because if you’re making a song about something you really have to define is this a love song is this a fear song you have to define what the goals of your actions were so you you kind of are defining your axioms by writing a song so these right you know all these modes of uh of different ways of reflecting and contemplating elimination they do have uh different purposes and i think that’s maybe what rumination is about yeah yeah i want to i want to catch up on comments real quick also say something andre and jesse if you want to i’m just leaving the space open uh i frequently comment so you guys go ahead for the meantime jesse you get you get anything for us before i jump into catching up on my comment i’ve got plenty to say i’m sure you did so christian contemplation anselman christian contemplation is about initially using mental images but then going beyond them to receive from god it’s good for christians i guess i’m all for it uh father eric carve yourself out of marble it’s easy wow look i mean if the priest says that it must be true so we’ll just do that like i’m gonna grab my marble carver and my arm sticking out of my marble and carve myself um talk about yourself no anselman while in the body we always need phantasms but we have to weed out the false ones right well the hard work of reading out false things is a lot of the work i don’t see people doing or talking about i see people talking about acceptance and emergence and how emergence is good and you can just go ahead and do stuff and and all that but i don’t see people talking about discernment and is what you’re doing good and how do you know and what should you do about figuring it out like i i don’t see a lot of that lazarus the tricky part of quote patterns is that language matters oh now we’re going to get into deep disagreement here in certain christian traditions contemplation and meditation are flipped in meeting traditions matter patterns are too abstract well patterns are inevitable language is not the ticket and i’m gonna i’m gonna i’m gonna push back on class punk what i’ve done with these on that very issue to some extent anselman yes lazarus must define and differentiate contemplation and meditation yeah i mean that was part of the purpose of this was to differentiate contemplation reflection rumination especially in light of the thing that i’ve been ruminating on since i saw it on twitter and that was a couple months ago at least with uh mature was i was like wow that’s really super insightful as he always is i mean it’s amazing if you haven’t read language creation absolutely should um anselman early christian meditation involved reciting scripture oh i didn’t know that that’s that’s fascinating uh anselman active and passive distinctions also apply right well that’s a good point yeah there’s active distinctions and passive distinctions and we need to sort of consider that and then father eric yeah if you ever hear a christian talk about meditation contemplation you got to listen carefully yeah as always and and i do want to push back a little bit on on class punk here what he said like you’re not going to get a scientific way of understanding if you’re in a cult and a lot of the cults they are in form of distributed cognition they’re just not a positive one like everybody talks about distributed cognition especially even verveci circles like it’s some automatic goodness right and it’s not like some distributed cognition is negative it’s bad stuff and you know that goes both ways like one of the problems where we boy are we seeing a problem with this right now where’s my prop uh which is also my actual cell phone uh so this thing uh search on google is complete garbage uh the past month and it’s just getting worse and the ads on youtube have just gone to hell in a hand basket all of a sudden in the past few weeks and uh trying to get google to believe that you’re you is virtually impossible uh although i think we’re we’re we’ve got a beat on that it’s a store to be attached to the freaking youtube channel someday uh getting that to work has been virtually impossible um part of the reason why is there is a battle of distributed cognitions so there’s a group of people that we think of as smart and i can tell you met someone that’s smart uh you know doing the algorithm and fair enough like they there is an algorithm there has to be an algorithm the only way to manage large amounts of data is with a computer right computers create a large amount of data or disseminate a large amount of data usually both right and then something’s got to manage that well that’s technically always going to be an algorithm doesn’t have to be a computer algorithm by the way uh but it is in this case because only a computer can run fast enough to sort through all that data on the other side are the people gaming the algorithm that’s a larger distributed cognition and therefore almost certainly automatically smarter by any measure you want to gin up for smartness and so what ends up happening is you have the battle of two distributed cognitions one highly distributed and specialized which can be good but also has a blind spot specialization is blind spots specialization is creation of blind spots to focus on something to be better at it that’s what specialization is technically and then you’ve got a bunch of people just poking at things randomly but it’s not a bunch of people it’s like two million people or something stupid it’s a unbelievably high number of people just doing random things in some cases some of them are very smart they might be smarter than anybody in this group who knows there’s no way to tell it’s a much larger group on this side and then they’re fighting for each other and right now according to some sources and i don’t know that this is true so i’m not going to state it i’m just going to say i’ve read about this heard about this in a couple of different places the people who are gaming the algorithm are winning and and and maybe we go through these cycles all the time but like right now there’s no clear path for the other side to gain gain holes so distributed cognition is not a solution and scientism trying to figure out a scientific formula is also not a solution and and this is where it gets tricky because sometimes your feelings are right and sometimes your feelings are fooling you and i can’t tell you when is when when is this is happening i don’t know right i mean i can give you some guidance sometimes i can i can look at specific things and go no that’s evil oh no that’s good i mean i can do that and i think i’m pretty good at it those are just claims that i’m making uh and and i can kind of do the trick and i’m happy to do the trick if i have enough detail or whatever but like not everybody has that sense and i think the reason why is because they don’t practice contemplation reflection and rumination and they don’t relate to the outside they don’t have valuable feedback from like andre and jesse and sally joe and manuel is just manuel is invaluable without manuel nothing happens like nothing i just you know like manuel if there’s a problem in what you’re saying even if you’re right but if there’s a problem in what you’re saying and how you’re saying it manuel will find it that will happen it will happen very quickly you will you will be very surprised how quickly that happens and it is so useful it is so useful to have somebody like that around who will just snap out and now like today adam adam was just like no mark what you’re saying is making any sense you know and casey’s helping out he can help out but he yeah you know he’s like i gotta think about that more and i’m like all right you know these things are important right i i have to stop the contemplation and get back to cleaning the temple but thank you for having me on well it’s great to meet you jessamine thanks for joining nice to join again i will be back to contemplating with you and distributing are my cognition with you all at a later date excellent good luck goodbye good luck so so does that make sense class i don’t want you to rely on the science i had a few things in my head let’s see if i can remember them so one thing i want to say is the idea of a bigger distributed cognition being generally smarter that goes along with thomas soles book intellectuals in society and he’s in a he’s a chicago school economic he’s in the chicago school economics he studied in that and that book goes along with this idea of that knowledge as it relates to politics and economics and and all that but i won’t get i won’t get into that but if anyone’s interested in that book it’s a little dry but it’s really interesting and when i was talking about um probably both philosophy or science pursuing that as it relates to to pushing back against um i should i should uh say that um i i don’t think that i’m looking at things i’m always trying to look at things when i’m from when it’s from an intellectual perspective from a from in probabilities and not not this kind of absolutism scientism not more if that makes sense um but so i should have said that well so i want to push back on probabilities oh but okay before you do i just want to say one more thing go ahead so so my idea is if if we could get more people um popularizing a less quality less controlling um forms of understanding of meditation to the degree that we can gain that with in relation to the comp the complexity of our of of ourselves as human beings and the complexity of that topic um it would be better than it it could be popularized to enough to enough degree that it could puncture that uh those control systems of those cults um culturally it could kind of they could become aware of it and maybe it could help to pull them away from those messed up systems so that’s all i wanted to say yeah um potentially i think that instead of like the alternative to probabilities the thing on the say the other side of the register from probabilities is just intuition right and and the way you train that is with the engagement in fairy tales right so we’re you know i i don’t know if you’ve seen the knowledge engine video but like it’s good right because you talk about the poetic way of informing the world that’s the alternative to probability okay so i i have seen it but it’s one of those things i to really sublimate it i need to kind of take notes on it and yeah really but um i would i would make the argument what do you think of this um because i’m not claiming i know if it’s true or not but uh that intuition is um innate probability deduction that is pre-linguistic i think it looks that way if you try to science it but it’s not at all that way right because what ends up happening is you end up with this many to many relationship and that’s not probable like you can’t apply probability to multivariate equations in that way right you have to reduce things down to do proper probability and i i learned probability relatively late in life mostly from aronson’s book um evidence-based technical analysis it’s a huge book uh but it’s excellent i read the whole thing it’s fantastic um and telep right those are the two things where i was like ah now i got probability like i understand it but the problem with probability and celeb talks about this is that you’re already reducing down the variables right you’re already like variable-izing things and reducing the variables and then understanding things as clouds which is useful like i’m not like i use probability it’s great um but it’s also prone to reframing so it doesn’t work well in the post-modern era right i had a lie with statistics yep uh right right but but intuition is more than that because it’s multivariate right and so math can’t apply like this is what like once you get into multivariate equations math is actually pointless because it doesn’t work anymore can i just put it in is it mr class punk what what how should i refer to you what’s um it’s like class you just call me class i’m gonna call you mr punk is it that’s all right that’s fine that’s that’s fine um one of the exercises that i do is when you get something that’s very sciencey or you’re trying to say something very sciencey take it out of the science because we used to define the world and go about our daily lives without the science well we could we could use our so we could not use scientific language so to speak and still define concepts so what would intuition be then for you well i another way of putting it as likelihood because i think that and anecdotal say you you know you know that there’s going to be predators in a certain spot um and you’re and you’re anecdotally avoiding that area because you have anecdotal knowledge that there’s been predators in that area say you’re you’re some sort of hunter-gatherer tribe in africa and you’re and so i i kind of see likelihood or probability as being innate and intuition pre-linguistically somehow not saying that’s all of intuition because there’s there’s a sense of there’s something there’s there’s a sense of pattern recognition basically like so you have to be passionate body myth really yeah i would say that’s embodied knowledge right and and like i i let’s think about it this way maybe this will help so let’s suppose just well we’ll just stay in suppose land in hypothetical land let’s suppose that there are things you know that don’t map to language at all like even a little bit like just things you you can’t map to language i’m never just supposing here i’m not i’m not gonna make any claims and then what would happen if you tried to map them to language you look a lot like that and then you could go aha well what’s the math analog to that map oh it’s statistics so the map the math analog to intuition is statistics like i think there’s no way around that right it’s probability and so it looks like so when you look back on things you tend to use maps you don’t actually re-experience very often some people do i do occasionally sometimes that’s great and sometimes it really sucks sometimes it’s horrible but you you tend to look back and go oh i see what i did and then you you rationalize your behavior and you justify your behavior using this rationality framework but that isn’t what happened and then when you do that you can come up with a thing like well i felt bad i felt attacked when that person asked me a question therefore they must have have been mean to me i was like well that’s dangerous and i think people do things like that all the time and it’s easier to take into account that maybe there’s a whole way of being if you will right that isn’t wrapped up in propositions at all like it doesn’t have a propositional aspect to it right it’s just purely intuitive it’s totally on that side of the brain and that when we try to look at it reflect on it if you will that’s when we get into trouble and we go oh this looks like math i mean that is the problem of game theory like this is the problem of game theory and john nash knew this he said wait a minute people aren’t doing calculus in their head to buy a loaf of bread but that’s what game theory says the game theory actually does say that it’s actually what it says it says we are actually doing calculus and and the and the thing is and nash noted all this like i didn’t make this up i read this from his stuff like we know a that’s not correct and b the calculus doesn’t quite work it gets really close but it’s actually not mapping onto behavior but it’s coming so close that it’s super useful and i agree like absolutely but it’s not the thing or the thing in and of itself as playdoh might say or eristotle mark that how do you train your intuition or how is your intuition informing it’s informing by experience right right the more experiences we have not knowledge but experience opens up the field of potential where we can see or where we can act in the world or we can gain more experience and willing to apply that intuition or participation or participation now you train through participation i was about to say mathematical modeling would that be on the side of propositional knowledge and we would have a participatory knowledge as mapping onto intuition yep yeah in the in the in the uh in the video right so there’s four types of information it’s propositional procedural those are on one side right and then on the other side you have participatory and poetic which used to be parabolic sorry sorry andre manuel won that battle i wasn’t even there for it yeah i know i know but you won that battle so we renamed it to poetic there’s only two types of knowledge that come from the four types of information there’s concrete knowledge and intuitive knowledge right and so oh and they map directly onto the sides of brain right and then and then the and then both of those will say in balance whatever that might mean we’ll just gloss over that part right that’s that’s what predicates our understanding and our understanding is not the is not us being on top of something it’s understanding it’s how we are underneath it and and are stable underneath it knowing that we that we are subjugated to that thing right so our proper relationship to it is underneath it that’s understanding understanding is not control or or the ability to uh fully rationalize or fully predict or any of that it really is about standing underneath something in the in the right in in sort of the uh the right relationship and i i need to deal with some comments and then we’ll it’s i’ll let you guys contemplate reflect and ruminate on what i just said um so chew chew here comes the knowledge engine thank you father rick yes um what else we got father rick those who have it no those who don’t have to learn when that’s one of the problems like we don’t have a deep appreciation for we all have things to learn and we have to learn stuff we’re very much in the world i know what i know and therefore and it’s like do you though do you and i do like this andrea i didn’t notice this all aboard next stop propositional station ticket counter may or may not exist premise is not set yet i like that that’s actually really clever i i appreciate that uh lazarus imagination inspiration intuition three is the only math i like well i like the three math too sir i’m big into triangles and stuff so uh yeah the imagination the inspiration intuition is a good a good way to think about things and then father rick’s talking about team sports poetry music dancing art liturgy especially liturgy from a priest who would who would have guessed yeah i mean these modes of participation are the way in which you train your intuition i can’t find the quote but somebody now i don’t remember who it was uh somebody very cleverly said that participation is the training of your intuition and i was like that is a billion percent correct i was pissed off because i didn’t think of it and that always makes me angry by the way um father eric uh i’m also happy by the way when people like get what i’m talking about and improve on it so it’s one of these like love hate things i i love it when people do that i hate it that i didn’t do it father i drone of art kick the english ass without science exactly science is not all it’s sort of chopped up to be at this point but your brain doesn’t do math like that right we use math as a model for good intuition yeah we do but we probably shouldn’t we probably should never cross math and intuition i bet trump sucks at math but he has great intuition boy is that true if you hear the stories about trump man some of the stories like the first guy who did the apprentice he did an interview a year or a year and a half after the apprentice after his apprenticeship was up and he was like charged with the chicago trump project or something and he said no no you guys don’t understand like i was in a meeting we know we worked on this for however many months and the architects had this building and they laid out the building and and trump came in and i think he was even a little late or something right trump comes in and he goes no no guys this isn’t going to work you’re not thinking about this you got to remove all this ornate stuff at the top of the building and they’re like what no we can’t do that it needs to look pretty and he’s like look the pigeons are going to come in and poop all over this and then it’s going to look ugly and someone’s going to have to clean it and that’s going to be expensive and then basically he left the meeting because everything else was fine like the guy had done is the apprentice guy had done his job well everything else was fine but trump just came in saw the situation you know fix it that’s intuitive that’s not you can’t learn that you can’t train somebody to do that that’s years of of experience and then andre again i have good intuition i have the best intuition folks we’re not gonna frame all the finest intuition seen into this white house fair feather wreck like that too lol yeah and there’s always a danger of thinking evil yeah well you know what that’s what we’re not accounting for in the world is evil like we’re really not uh that’s that’s the problem like we’re just ignoring the evil part and mills do you think intuition needs insight not to be delusional no i don’t i think that the way you know intuition again you train your intuition through participation and that’s the problem and people are not accounting for this like they’re just and and they want to have it all themselves look i thought my insight told me that my writing of this monologue was great and i read it this morning not to get more insight from me i had all the insight that i had and it just turned out that all of my review all of my contemplation all of my reflection all of my rumination on this topic was insufficient and i suspected that by the way because i know that because i have considered that i am a muppet and i said hey guys and i do this often not all the time unfortunately but often when there are people in my discord i go hey guys hold on we’re in the working session room i’m i’m usually working we’re in the working session room and other people are too and and that’s great and that’s great i’m going to read you this and you tell me what you think now if sally joe’s there this is a total waste of time because sally joe can never tell me what she thinks about anything except good or bad that’s the best resolution she gets for whatever reason artists are terrible terrible people they should all be shot i’m sorry jesse i just i can’t i can’t they’re useless they’re completely you it’s pointless it’s totally pointless to ask artist questions it’s just complete waste of time um might be a little bit hyperbolic there um maybe a little so adam spoke right up and i’ve met adam so you know uh he’s over there in ireland probably sleeping now i hope and uh you know he was like no nah didn’t understand you it’s like okay fair that’s good right and had he not done that i would not have had a flash of insight to fix this problem i’m sorry i’m just not that good but neither of you it’s not to say that you don’t sometimes have flash of of insight and that they aren’t helpful but it’s sometimes and i don’t know how often and you don’t know how often unless you test it with other people outside of your self now elizabeth no i’m not reading dr mcgillchrist he wrote this big huge book and it’s too big and it’s much like the the the philosophers that i have not read although now i’ve read the republic which at one point atlas shrugged like that einman’s not a philosopher i’ll get into that later no i wasn’t saying she was yeah well and those are stories i mean i love atlas shrugged and i loved uh the fountainhead i thought they were great but uh she’s definitely not a philosopher um for reasons if they’re right and i come to the same conclusion then just call me the fact checker of the ancients i’m fine with that or of the moderns of mcgillchrist that’s fine these these are not new ideas i am sure i’ve picked up on some of them and discovered some of them you know whatever doesn’t matter i don’t care which it is but are they right yes i have a strong conviction that that like most of them are correct uh for sure and uh that seems to be bearing fruit i don’t i don’t know what to tell you uh father eric loves to do this little experiment on his sunday night streams with me right where he says hey mark what do you think the answer to this question is and then you go well thomas equinus or this philosopher whatever agreed with you and i was like that’s fantastic i’m glad to know we’re all in agreement with the truth right and and and that’s what it is right and then anselman i don’t think the standing under idea can be taken from all other languages no maybe not i i do believe it works in latino which is the root uh where that comes from if i remember correctly um comprende unlike verse to hen what’s the latin of greek i don’t know it’s all greek to me that’s how i resolve it father eric mark needs an errand to his moses i don’t even know what that means so you might be correct about that one quick note before i before i release i release the hounds here uh einran’s not a philosopher because she doesn’t have a complete system uh she relies very heavily on existing right and wrong determinations to justify uh her point about selflessness now i extremely agree with most of the objective principles selfishness in particular as she articulates it now do i think she does a good job of this i suspect not i need to do more reading on my part and i will i promise at some point it might be a year or two because i’m very slow i hate reading reading is hard uh and jesse sent me some books that i have to read first but i do want to read uh anthem at the very least and at least one of the other books i don’t know which one up the top of my head uh oh we the living uh yeah sally went through my head there we the living i want to read those two and get a better idea of whether or not she actually correctly articulate selfishness in her philosophy because that’s like if there’s one takeaway from einran that’s absolutely devastatingly awesome it’s that but it’s a very nuanced position because that’s the critique everybody makes of einran right if you watch um the simpsons they actually have an episode i i i forget what the name of the episode is it might be a is a or something but there’s the a is a daycare center ah that one yeah now if you know einrand you’re rolling on the floor right now because that is the funniest thing that has ever been said on tv ever like that is freaking hysterical that is the funniest joke of all time as far as i’m concerned that is a riot because it’s right up the alley of the critique and yet at the same time in in the most subversive possible manner the baby maggie uh actually proves that a is a is correct even for babies which of course it isn’t which is the whole thing is just flips it’s so funny it’s so hysterically funny of course that the weakness of einrand is that her philosophy doesn’t account for children and my counter to that was always yeah neither does kirkengard neither does nichi neither does play dough like these although that’s not true play dough does in some sense but like these philosophies generally don’t account for children that is true einrand is also of that ilk okay but that’s not much of a critique if all the other philosophers except maybe play dough and aristotle also didn’t account for children in their philosophy and so but but which is even flippier and funnier when you consider the a is a daycare where they actually do break out of the daycare center because maggie basically organizes an individualistic coup and of course the way the daycare center works is you just put all the children in a room and leave them there alone and it’s just oh my god it is such a funny episode it’s that one and uh yeah forbidden doughnuts another classic freaking simpsons episode like that that i don’t know that’s not the same as the flying pig was good too it’s still good it’s still good but uh but yeah that that’s all i have to say yeah she doesn’t have a thing a framework complete enough to be an actual philosophy in my opinion like it’s it’s very weak even though i love her work and i just adore einrand actually uh for various reasons but i also see the problems the problems that i see are not problems anybody else has ever mentioned by the way just a little hint into maybe don’t believe nathaniel brandon and some of those other idiots who critique her work anyway that’s that’s my soapbox sorry i’ll get off it now go ahead guys the hounds are unleashed um i had a point from before someone mentioned about time um when compared to contemplation rumination and reflection i would say that the three terms all uh chronological so um reflection is looking back to something from the past and um running through your cognition um and contemplation is doing that but focused towards the future and making improvements whereas rumination is sort of a present-oriented process it um you continually engage with it with participation but once you stop that participation the rumination will stop that’s fair i i want to address that this is funny lazard ran would never have had a live live stream weekly for free actually i don’t think that’s necessarily true i mean she is she worships capitalism but actually if you read the books there is a lot of charity in there and charity in the modern sense not charity in the real sense i’ll go into that someday too she does talk about doing things for the sake of them being the right thing to do but when she uses that she doesn’t justify that she just says like well there are right things to do and you know what they are or implies you know what they are there or her characters know what they are and they just do them and they just happen to work out right in the capitalist framework and she kind of uses that as a bootstrap to morality and i very much disagree with that move like that is not a valid move uh i’m not saying that’s an invalid signal it’s certainly the marketplace right whether it’s a marketplace of ideas or marketplace of capital which is what capitalism is by the way uh the marketplace is valid it’s a valid signal for sure uh you can’t rely on it it’s not perfect by any means and that’s where the infection like that’s where the problem comes in it can’t it’s not a replacement for virtue for virtuousness for the pursuit of virtuousness even though exactly you don’t want cronyism in it either you don’t want political favoritism within within the boundaries of well political favoritism within the citizen within the adult citizens that right well the corruption is a problem and and and like see the the problem is when you point at communism the corruption is easy to see the reason why the corruption is easy to see in any socialist system is because it happens very quickly those systems are really just ready for corruption because socialistic systems play a trick on you they tell you specifically that things there’s a neutral state and that like property ownership doesn’t have to exist because there’s no responsibility in property ownership which is a lie and so what happens is the people who aren’t completely stupid about this and are paying attention because it requires the capacity and the deliberate attempt to pay attention in order to be smart about something when those two things come together those people go well someone’s got to be in charge must be me all these people are missing it so i’m smarter than them which is technically true by the way so i’m going to take advantage of that and i’m going to be the bureaucrat in charge of the thing or i’m going to be the guy at the top of the pyramid if you’re stalin right or ma or whatever fair enough but you see the corruption is almost certain to happen immediately in a socialistic system almost certain because there isn’t competition because the assumption of the people building the system and maybe they believe this i have no idea i don’t care if they believe it or not stalin knew better clearly like you read some of the stuff he wrote he understood exactly what would happen and exactly how to take advantage of it and he very deliberately did that like he he’s a smart dude like you want to talk about all the other smart people in the 20th century they can all go to hell hitler and stalin were geniuses they were next level geniuses the only people that even rivaled them are guys like churchill like and and i don’t think churchill was smarter than either of them by the way i don’t think so but like he like stalin and hitler both got the drop on churchill not and not that churchill didn’t see what was coming but he he he wasn’t there man he just wasn’t in front of it he he was caught up with it but he wasn’t in front of it so you know the the the but the problem with capitalism is that corruption is a constant and so you’ve got a constant amount of available corruption in any system well if the socialist just takes the corruption up immediately due to the nature of the lie that’s inherent in the story it tells then it’s easy to see but in a capitalist system it’s not so easy to see so maybe it doesn’t get taken up right away or maybe the corruption goes up and down you know you can look at the united states you can say oh well you had more and less corrupt administrations or presidents or whatever you want to think about it that certainly happened i can point to whole bunch of examples i don’t think there’s a purpose i think we all agree that can happen but when does it become too much like when does the level of corruption become so great that it’s the same as as a socialist system well that’s that’s a harder question to answer and i think right now one way to look at things i’m not saying this is the best way one way to look at things is to say well the the socialists are noticing there’s such a high level of corruption that it doesn’t matter if they swap out their system and so they’re trying to convince you that that that that’s valid and like i i do think some of them are doing that too by the way that to tie it back into the topic that there’s definitely something to be said about how do we use contemplation to get out of mainstream corruption right or or just recognize it the problem isn’t getting out of it you’re not getting out of corruption there’s always yeah well so what fights corruption like what is the best disinfectant well sunlight and so that’s why one of my big crusades and it is a crusade that’s the correct term is calling out evil and doing it poorly like don’t worry about whether or not you’re correct in calling out evil i mean worry about that but like don’t not call out things you think are evil because you’re worried about being perfect call out evil like call it out like no this president is evil or that bill is evil or this action is evil or you know this court system is corrupt or whatever it is it doesn’t matter but you should call it out there there seems to be a kind of maybe a divide is an oversimplification but there’s there’s difference of differences of opinion on is the corrupt how centralized is the corruption and there’s something really important that i think that i’ve been thinking about recently and just framing it as corruption to unite everyone against the corruption and at least where we’re at now until we can build enough distributed cognition to figure out what the heck’s going on that that resonates at all yeah i look i think there’s something deeply right in the in the orientation that you have not the direction because that’s important but orientation right which is that yeah we need to be paying attention to these things and paying attention to them is good and important but also when we try to tie too many things together that’s the rationalization that’s the assumption that the world is rational and the problem is the world is not rational or at least it’s not that rational in that way i can make an argument for rational world it just looks nothing like what you expect uh-huh right so what that means is that we see conspiracies everywhere because a conspiracy is an over rationalization of the world and i i know i’ve said this before i’m sure you’ve heard it class right like if the world is rational if the people in the white house actually right now in the white house of the united states are intentional competent actors with a plan right who are actually correctly implementing that plan then the most rational and i’m not being hyperbolic the most rational explanation is that lizard people are in control of the white house whether they’re actual lizard people or whether they’re like the lizard people are like no dude you have to do this it doesn’t really matter at that point but they are in control of the white house it just turns out that most people are grossly incompetent especially most politicians like a competent politician is such a rare find that like if you if you see one you should make sure they stay in office forever i don’t care about term limits at that point try to get them a lot of bulletproof glass or right right but but but right but but but also i look i i mean rand paul was in forever and he was clearly you know a super competent guy like fantastic he was alone and so you can’t do much right but he did a lot like he did a lot without him there everything’s worse right and his and his son ran paul right another super competent guy sitting in a large body of incompetence but like without them there it’s worse that’s what we’re not accounting for like everybody wants it to get fixed it’s not going to get fixed but we can make it better but the people who would make it better have to take the hit because there was nothing worse than being the most competent person in a room nothing i i can’t explain to you how horrifying that is or try it worse yet being the most the most common person in a courtroom during a proceeding that sounds scary no i wanted to kill myself and i’m not joking absolutely i’m like these people are all ridiculously stupid and they’re not even following their own rules and they don’t realize it and they won’t even entertain the idea that they should and it was just horrifying to me it’s happened more than once and i’m traumatized by it clearly and and like too bad like that happened uh and and and that’s the issue is like there’s a lot of incompetence and i think a lot of what we see and i someday i’m going to do a video on this not anytime soon it’s it’s a hard video to do but like a lot of what we see is the pattern of too many people getting involved in something and then there’s only so many competent people so that something new forms it’s the competent people has to be the ones that form it except maybe one or two exceptions people get lucky or whatever right but then as people get into it like software engineering right then all of a sudden most of the people there are incompetent the competent people are like they leave and go off and do something else or they retire like like that that was my big revelation einrand is right is he has to cheese no i was like people leave they retire atlas does shrug it happens all the time i don’t want to get too off off your topic but i was seeing that i was looking up a youtube video on the history of the the halo video games and seeing that in the games industry yeah with yeah and and not just there but in other video games as well that program the programmers they’re not as passionate they’ve got really giant companies overseeing it micromanaging everything and there’s the political correctness kind of see seeping into the game instead of instead of the game being its own unique artistic thing like the the worst thing to happen to the gaming industry was steam when you have the monopolization when you have the monopolization of talent why would you go work for a big company when you can downscale work with five of your friends make something that’s a possible product and we reap maybe 10x the reward that you would get over and working for company so if you work for a company for two years and say you’re going to make hundred thousand dollars right you work five of your buddies on the weekends or three days a week to make a 2d or 3d game or in the case of minecraft guy you know three project or whatever comes up with it spits it out and then it gets bought by microsoft five years later but that’s small seed of using his talent has like you know maybe 100x i’m not sure what it is but it’s it’s the vast amount of value you would get by essentially getting out of the monopoly and just being your own actor in the field if you can do it but the other problem most people can’t do it right and so their option is to work at a company or to work at a company or to work at a company and and they don’t like that and i understand why but even really talented people look 95% of all businesses go bankrupt in three years 95% that means most people who try to start a business can’t pull it off and in fact most people who are serial entrepreneurs their second businesses fail and their third businesses fail and their fourth businesses fail in other words first business they and teleb talks about this in his books we’d all not seen teleb’s books they’re great like they might have gotten lucky or they might have succeeded and not known why and you see this in oh shoot now i had it this is the myth of living your dream that’s been sold to us right right as though you can do that what’s the what’s the animation studio there jesse and that is not Pixar thank you Pixar this is the untold story of Pixar in in in 40 seconds here whatever i can manage Pixar gets invested in by Steve Jobs Steve Jobs picks the talent there’s a singular guy in there i forget the guy’s name i apologize he is Pixar or Andrew Stanton i think dude was trying maybe he’s the guy he sleeps under his desk just like you on my sleeps under his desk basically destroys his family and ends up getting a divorce i think over this stupid company he leaves Pixar goes downhill immediately like that company was held together by one person Steve Jobs who i don’t like Steve Jobs in particular for various reasons but he knew how to pick talent man like that was his thing he was a jerk like he could not run a company by himself we know that every time he tried he failed but but when he had a talented team and when he had the team he picked he did very well he also by the way effectively created the modern software industry entirely by himself he is a great man there’s no question about that the impact of next computers and more importantly the software and the programming language objective c which has only recently been supplanted by a much inferior crappy language that should die a horrible death is inestimable right doom quake quake world all that stuff is done on an x machine i have a next machine i have two of them i think i have came by small teams of people very small teams of extraordinarily outlier talented people which you are not one of by the way almost certainly just to let you know as special as you are and as different as you are and as better as you are as your peers you’re not one of those people those aren’t the 10 percent those aren’t the 1 percent those are the 0.1 percent okay and if you can get with another 0.1 percent or two of those who complement your skills which is a different problem because a lot of times good programmers will get together and when you have three good programmers in a room do you know what you have three big problems that turn quickly into nine big problems because they argue about how to implement everything don’t don’t challenge me on this i’ve got 35 years i’ve seen it many times you do not want more than one good programmer on your team ever ever you want one guy one leader to lead the way and everybody else to follow and you don’t need big egos there’s whole books written on this problem this is a well-known problem if you read about it and and that’s the issue is that people don’t want to follow they don’t want to be led they want to be the leader because they’ve been told that they can and and they’re as good as everybody else and that they could be labrate lebron james or whatever no you can’t almost certainly you can’t i’m sorry somebody lied to you about that i’m very sorry i wish they hadn’t done that but they probably did and like you know uh maybe to wrap this up we’ll bring it back to mr punky uh steve wasniak yeah at the same time he’s working for um aria was it what’s the company called the ornico’s out of business you know what’s the famous one the famous games for company not aria doesn’t matter what’s the one anyway he’s working he’s working at the one that’s the printer first and then it becomes a game company so he has the number one atari that’s it yeah so he’s working at atari atari is getting into the video game industry he has the number one game that year in the world the number one game and he also lose releases the apple one releases the apple one that guys that just doesn’t happen anymore like that that is that is a unique person like special is like a word we have like demystified to the ends of the year that just doesn’t happen so but you can see that monopolization mr punk in almost any aspect any creative field probably since the 1950s that’s why science sucks now well we haven’t gotten anywhere because it’s all been monopolized out we’re not filtering out anymore we’re just amplifying or magnifying the amount of um hypothetical potential that a marketplace could pull could could buy into right like because you’re literally buying your university degree now you’re not being granted it through an institution you’re literally buying it can you can you buy it and can you pass yes but yeah it’s not filtering for good people anymore it used to filter for good people right because like like like people in the past used to work and go to college they didn’t get grants they worked their way through college now if you’re willing to do that that says something about you already and if you pull it off you’re not average you’re way above average because you’ve got to track your job whatever that is and you have to track your studies like it’s a filter and without that filter by making it too accessible to everybody we don’t know who’s any good at anything anymore like people with degrees in the computer industry i destroy them i don’t agree i don’t agree in anything i know where a college is that i’ve never been to one like that i just destroy them because i’m extremely well read on computer history and computer science i go to interviews and i’m like where did you get your i i worked with somebody from mit who couldn’t debug he coded in c for 30 years but he couldn’t debug to save his ever-loving soul i can debug without even seeing code like i’m just i just have a natural talent for it but like things are all over the place and that’s not to knock on him i mean he was a far better c programmer than i’ll ever be that’s for sure but like he can’t debug and we assume that people can right and it’s like wow look these skills are not as universal or or they don’t they don’t go in a linear pattern you can’t say well he knows physics so he must understand medicine no but but he knows physics so he must understand einstein’s theory of relativity maybe not like that’s happened i’ve met people at mit for real that actually don’t understand and they don’t care like yeah i know i don’t understand relatively i don’t care my specialty in physics is this fair enough dude but also like what does that mean like now i don’t know how smart that guy is because maybe he’s just good at specializing in one branch of physics which which could could be super valuable i’m not knocking it but like where are these signals now what are they saying so there’s definitely a it seems like an intersection between too much central is too much centralization in education and over specialization and that’s producing you could say contemplation and distributed cognition distributed contemplation to try to bring it tie it all together yeah yeah well and we don’t have to make it look like we’re not even off topic yeah i’m not i’m not ready to being on topic don’t worry okay i i want to highlight this though thank you michelle by the way how interesting to see you find areas where einranz ideas fall short even though she is someone you hold in high high remarks or high regard is better word michelle michelle’s not always good with the english that’s okay it’s not his first language uh your unwavering devotion show in somewhat paradisical selfish ways thank you i think i don’t know is that it is that a plus or it doesn’t matter i love michelle so yeah i i mean people make great things happen not individuals people people working together in a participation in a community you know that’s what makes it happen and you could even say that with any other revolutions that happen in time it’s not just one guy it’s a it’s literally five guys it’s like you probably need five guys to make anything worthwhile happen ever right well at least five and no wonder that a band is five guys like the band is not the guy at the front singing lyrics like the band is right well the guy who holds the band together is almost always a drummer and that’s almost always who steals your wife holds together is the best yeah holds together is the best analogy right well they’re usually the ones that do the bookings and maybe that’s because they don’t have to pay as hard attention to practice as everybody else i don’t know but that’s that’s what i’ve been told like i don’t play instruments i can’t for whatever reason i wish i could i try every once in a while or horrible mess but but like that’s actually important to realize like well that you have a great hands in time so yeah you can have a great man there are great men all over the damn place but almost none of them are going to do anything my opinion on drummers drifts my opinion on drummers shoots everywhere but that’s the thing like the great man without the great backup man without the great sidekick never becomes the great man and then we see that potential because we all have potential to be great at something sure but maybe that thing that you could be great at is useless like i don’t know i’m not making a claim either way i’m just saying have you considered the possibility because we’re not considering the possibility or we’re not thinking about the downsides we’re in this constant upside you can be anything you want no no you like everybody else has constraints and limitations and you should figure out what those are because those are the most important things for you to know about how do you know contemplation reflection and rumination can help you with that process but they are insufficient you have to talk to other people and make sure you’re with other people who are willing to tell you you’re stupid or you’re wrong or you’re insufficient or just call you out well um it seems like there’s a big a big issue with with the with contemplation not happening going along with academia is um uh i hate to say the term wokeness but you could say critical theories postmodern activism but something that i thought about with that what where is the good in that is a question that i’ve asked and i what is the attempt to find the good that these people that are involved in and what they what it seems like is they want to to reduce the negative effects of human tribalism and if so if we can if we can take the well if if the ideology can can morph towards that towards something good um going along with that then it then maybe it can morph towards contemplation of intellect of intellectual meritocracy if that if that those that makes sense well what what if it’s an easier problem than that what if the problem is that everybody presumed the good and never did the hard work of figuring out the good and then then you’re open to any ideology that comes along and i think in many ways peterson is very close to pointing that out in some ways i would say he falls short in others i don’t want to critique the great man because no um but he he says it explicitly maps a meaning i wanted to know if the battle of the 20th century was about arbitrary ideologies and one just being picked over another or if there was an actual difference between them now his conclusion is clear there’s an actual difference between them and when he tries to describe that difference he ends up somewhere very close to at least the biblical tradition if not the christian you know christianity as such now that you can say that’s coincidence you can say it’s a result of this culture whatever i don’t care i try to stay out of that whole ridiculous fight because to me it’s a ridiculous fight right but the important thing to note is that it isn’t if you look at it in that way good versus evil you can discern it the problem is you can’t do that if your assumption is that it’s all just good and that is the assumption that everybody is making they are assuming there are no snakes in the garden or they’re assuming worse yet that the number of snakes is smaller than it actually is on the internet there’s a very large number of snakes and i would argue the best place for snakes in the whole world is the internet and so you’re more likely to find a higher percentage of snakes on the internet than you are in any other group or class or whatever for that reason animinity is like the friend of the snake you know i’m not saying it’s bad but also it tends towards badness because there’s no consequences for your actions when you’re anonymous now that can be very good if you’re a quote whistleblower but if you’re a whistleblower who’s anonymous do you really believe in what you’re whistleblowing because it doesn’t seem like you’re willing to take a risk for it so i’m already suspicious of you i’m sorry but i’m already suspicious of you and i’m not saying you’re wrong and often they’re right but a lot of times you’re snakes and that’s the problem a lot of people use animinity to create chaos on purpose because there are lots of people who would rather burn everything down to create equality than do anything else because they know they’ll never be sufficient they desperately want to be elon musk they know they’re never going to be elon musk so if they burn everybody down including elon musk they’re just as good as elon musk now aren’t they ha ha ha and that is the attitude they have and if you listen closely you can hear that you can see that in what they do there there’s something that’s um there’s something really interesting with you’ve talked about this this need to have a poetic view of reality a non propositional view of reality there’s something real there’s something that goes along with that and first and foremost seeing seeing us all as as um human beings rather than um looking at our genetic traits going along with um these critical theories or whatever you want to focus post-modern misdemeanor um and and you and you kind of wonder why what how it’s it’s amazing that the power of the bandwagon the appeal of the bandwagon logical fallacy or or this or the the power of needing to belong or or what all these whatever it all is is is stopping this ability for us to see um for so many people to see all this is as a as a species as human beings in a in a poetic sense and um um or it’s that it’s it’s kind of hard tribalism is just a reflection of our need to not live alone okay almost certainly you can’t live alone it’s it’s all it’s almost impossible for almost everybody and when you look and nobody see nobody does their freaking research right they just don’t look it up even in the eastern traditions where they have admittedly way more of this living on your own in a cave garbage half of those people commit suicide in the tradition that’s written down like the tradition of going off and living actually as an individual by yourself on your own which does happen but it is extremely rare they’re usually very badass and have wrinkled faces right but but even that tradition says the likelihood is that you won’t survive and it also says the purpose is for you to be away for 20 or 30 years and isolated which most people can’t do like most people can’t sit for 10 minutes in an empty room without any sound like most people can’t do that that’s my measure of a man right there and somebody asked me how long can you do it for i said well the last time i tried four hours and he just stared at me and i was like well i don’t know what to tell you like i’m just a really stable person since i was homeless like i i had to be because i was alone and now i think of you can also think of every karate movie you’ve ever watched there’s a lone grand master who’s grumpy who doesn’t want to get along with anyone but he needs something to do to pass on his experience knowledge wisdom but also he lacks the relationship and the student gives him the relationship the purpose and the meaning right it’s almost like the relationship the purpose and the meaning are more important than the skill that the student would be gathering and that’s like literally every in almost every like karate movie ever the really kung-fu movie ever there’s always a lone person that has to be reincorporated in and that like that that fundamental aspect of tribalism you’re not gonna not gonna eradicate because people want to adhere in a group tribalism is the misunderstanding of a clear signal that you can’t live alone that’s all it is like it’s just a misunderstanding it’s a bad framing of what’s actually happening you cannot live alone all right look if you’re on the internet living in a group is not equal you can’t leave in like you know group cohesion is not equal group cohesion implies trade-offs let’s do one step at a time you cannot live alone period full stop and you’re on the freaking internet dude you’re relying on a whole bunch of people who run the electricity system right is another thing peterson’s creative pointing out a whole bunch of people run your internet system you’re probably not the same people i mean maybe in some cases they are probably not if you’re in australia you’ve got the wallaby packet network you get to rely on the wallabies and the kangaroos right so you’re also relying on whoever the hell built your house whoever maintains your house you have water like who drilled your well like some people do some of these things themselves but almost nobody does them all themselves or did them all themselves sometimes they rely on somebody in the past building them because sally joe right now is screaming at me i know she’s like no that’s not true i my cousins are living in a house their grandfather built it whatever right but but like people in the past you relied on and then whatever they did to cultivate the land or whatever right all of these things are things that you’re relying on you’re not an individual you were never an individual you’re never going to be an individual that isn’t going to happen okay it’s just not going to happen and then maybe trying to be an individual or pretending like you’re individual right larping as an individual is what causes you to disconnect from the world and in that disconnection in that denial of the relationships around you you cause yourself a meaning crisis right you you instantly put yourself in domicide you instantly destroy the quality of the connections between things right that’s why you’re not contemplating reflecting and ruminating not considering those connections anymore because they’re all about relationship i said that i tried to say that enough over and over again those things are about your relationship to other things that’s what you’re supposed to be paying attention to in those processes what is the relationship how does it change with just with the basic sort of one-to-one like oh i did this and this didn’t happen right how does it change in time with relation to the past and the future oh how does it change if i change my starting assumptions right those are the three things and it’s like okay uh what what what happens uh well that’s an important question when we start viewing the world from the objective material reality sort of omr standpoint we see tribalism but actually tribalism is the way the world is like what they’re describing is just you have to live that way it’s not optional so it’s not helpful to point it out as though it is then say well the problem is tribalism tribalism is no problem tribalism is at least the way they describe it i just think it’s a bad bad naming at some point tribalism is the way we exist we exist within tribes and the further apart our tribes are because we get our electricity from far away people who build our house aren’t here anymore right they’re not our grandparents or whatever right oh that our family’s not with us anymore because we moved you know across the across the country or across the town or whatever right as we lose those connections we fall into domicile we get closer to the meaning crisis so i’m going to say something it might be a little bit controversial but if we wanted to attend to the problem of wokeness it is not making a school of thought that contradicts wokeness it is finding how many people we can fire or exclude and then the bad actors the bad actors will go away it is actually that pragmatic like oh harvard got rid of the the bad actor guess what’s going to happen to harvard it’s going to get better because it’s no longer controlled by a bad actor well harvard’s got a whole board to fire but yeah well yeah well yeah but but it’s possible that if they get another good president that that will spread up and the board members will get pissed off that their thing didn’t work and they’ll go elsewhere like so all hope is not lost by any means but yeah you’re right in theory like yeah we can implement change with good actors the problem is nobody can discern those things anymore because we haven’t been focusing on that that’s the problem with society is that no one’s focusing on the thing that peterson’s talking about weird huh and this is why it’s the peterson sphere he’s pointing at good and evil guys and no one else is including sorry father eric most of the people in most of the churches like they’re not doing that and this is the this is why people are bullshit about churches and masks like the churches of all the places on the planet should have figured this out intuitively and gone with their intuition and said no to that nonsense and some of them didn’t and people should be pissed about that yeah actually um katherine’s in the chat and she made an excellent point which is a person ceases to exist when alone uh you could say that just as much as you know bad ideas seeks to exist when bad actors are quieted you could say that a bad actor has um an over specialized worldview but not everyone who has an over specialized worldview is a bad actor i don’t know right you know i mean but that’s the problem of discernment of good and evil that’s what we’re not doing because we’re not paying attention to relationships we’re ignoring our intuition and we’re preferring our propositions the problem with propositions is that they require a lot of interpretation a lot of interpretation what uh when it comes to to trying to to understand more about um virtues or virtuousness from a propositional to the degree that you can from a propositional standpoint we like there’s not if you try to research that stuff it’s like like we’re we don’t know that much it just seems right we’re relying on morality we’re relying on knowledge and that’s the age of gnosis where knowledge is the highest sort of a thing and that’s what i tweet about it’s wrong like knowledge is garbage like you absolutely don’t need it like obviously people in the past had less knowledge than we have today and yet we’re here so how bad could that have been like they still built what you’re standing on so maybe knowledge isn’t all it’s cracked up to be guys you know i i’m not saying throw it out or anything like that like you want to play the knowledge game i’ll play it because i’m really sure i’m gonna win so i can play that game a lot better than most people but but also why you don’t need to there are better games to play like pirate live stream that’s a fun game it’s been uh very enriching to my life that’s way better than knowledge there’s depth i can see what you mean now there’s a there’s a sense of if you’re not if you’re not focused on this fundamental idea of good and evil which kind of goes along with a focus on moral truth then you’re you’re leaving a vacuum for cultures which are going to reduce contemplation and just distribute cognition i well i’d like to say distribute contemplation just to make it more accessible just use um yeah same terms no that’s fair yeah we can’t societies aren’t kind of anything and that yeah the solution is embodiment participation okay active engagement so could you go and do a body mint just a little bit give me an idea jesse why don’t you jump into that i’ll just like a really rough okay uh uh here’s one way to to go about this in apologies for the airplanes i don’t know sure why i’m getting so many airplanes um which is why my internet’s dropping out uh the way in which you approach the term understanding says a lot about you and your sense of embodiment if you think understanding is getting above something and then pushing things down which is like a top-down knowledge from above so you can you can have the ultimate perspective and then you can see everything else is lower you know you know uh inferior to you right so that’s your that’s how you approach that term of understanding then that lacks embodiment because there’s nothing higher than you because you have the understanding okay so so when you’re using the term embodiment you’re talking about um or there are concepts forms guys or certain spirits residences that inspire you to action or fill you with action and you understand that because there’s you know you can’t fully grasp everything at one particular time so it’s um sort of uh like socratic i don’t like it’s like it’s a it’s a sense of being of understanding the limits of your knowledge sort of in that sense in respect to how you use terms that or how you speak uh at least partially i would probably come out from the sense that it is very very hard to have an objective will to well i agree with that i you’re always in a story you’re always you’re always telling a story or a narrative i completely agree with that yeah you can’t just say well a a prior like you know um it’s it’s a willingness to admit that you have a priori by a priori or a biases or understandings or experiences and be comfortable with expressing that in a way that’s for the common good okay and then you can see even a scientific model with an embodiment they try to say well we can have less of those or none of those a priori um things and then we can you about why we’ve got the ultimate understanding of why we’re you know we’re gathering everything together into one body and body yeah if we just had faster brains we could measure all of reality that’s yeah exactly or taking off with the right drugs we get six drugs all working at one time we can have the further human being or something well and and there’s a danger both ways right so you can talk about things in terms of participation the danger in that is that some participation is ethereal it’s it’s conversation is a type of participation that’s fair right and so you can say look you can train your participation which trains your intuition by just having conversations but that’s actually not correct you can and it may go well right but it’s insufficient even if it’s possible right you can go the other too far in the other direction which jesse just pointed out i can go embodiment which is a different way of participating right in in physical aspect and then you can make it all materialistic like jesse just did brilliantly right so you go too far in either direction that’s why i actually like even though john is completely wrong about this by the way participatory knowledge there’s a way of knowing that is not propositional and it cannot be reduced because propositions are a reduction to propositions back to game theory cannot be reduced to math your behavior cannot be reduced to calculus or trigonometry can’t it can come really close i’ll grant game theory is amazing i love game theory but it doesn’t work like at the end of the day it doesn’t actually exactly map and there’s all kinds of holes in it in that same way you can’t talk about equivalent knowledge or equivalent participation unless it’s also embodied and so it’s participation that is embodied where you are engaged in noticing in recognizing a change outside of yourself that is what’s important that is proper training of your intuition right and and that alone will actually do it that is sufficient provided that you have feedback because i and i’ve seen this like this happens people whether this whether it’s observable or not people observe that they have changed the outside world through certain procedures we might call them a cult magic or something and maybe other people validate that for them because maybe you can be validated right but it’s still not quite correct right it’s still not say sufficient because it’s not consistent reliable or something right or it’s not it could it could be it could be they got lucky right like maybe somebody can make it rain with magical words and maybe that works and maybe they can do it once but that doesn’t mean that they can do it over and over again and so you need the experience that can be outside of yourself not just validated but also experienced by somebody else because if your experience is i ask you a question and you feel like i have told you that you’re a bad person just by asking you a question and you don’t check in with somebody else who says oh yeah i i i heard that question and it didn’t make me feel that way then maybe your experience isn’t sufficient and and that’s more what i’m getting at like your experience isn’t sufficient so to elizabeth’s excellent point chapter seven feedback yeah feedback is required and that feedback can’t come just from your head because that’s not feedback that’s just self-validation and that’s a problem and yeah you can sit in a room right you could sit you know on a discord channel you could sit in a live stream with a bunch of people and they go oh yeah yeah oh you’re right yeah all day long that’s easy to do there’s lots of crazy people on the internet who will agree with you there’s lots of people that will agree with you even when they don’t just to get along because tribalism is real right that doesn’t mean that they had the same experience you need better feedback and a better validation mechanism to make sure that that experience is actually the same or similar enough well that that’s something that saddens me about um i don’t want to sound uh i don’t want this to come off the wrong way for people who are who i’m talking about but it kind of saddens me about the the comment section of like peterson videos because you don’t have any you don’t have the you i mean there’s nothing wrong with you know the positivity that’s great but you don’t have um so much like the desire to maybe expand on on aspects of the discussion all right you just have and you can’t find and so you have discussions like that um but they’re they’re like islands more they’re not and and it seems like you when you have communities um like uh more on the it i don’t i don’t know if intellectual more like wisdom seeking communities they tend they so far they are are leaning towards that direction they tend to blow up online is is from what i’ve seen over the years yeah um well they they do it’s a it’s a good point i want to highlight elizabeth here right how about feedback from your enemies that is a common struggle i i see that struggle i saw that struggle today i see that struggle all the time with people going you know don’t throw out the heretics don’t throw out the field of discrepancy don’t throw out your enemies because you’re giving you valuable signals valuable feedback valuable information that you need to use and take seriously the problem is you have to deal with that information much more carefully than you do with somebody who’s on your side all right that’s what the book art of war is actually written about literally addressing that problem how to you know how to deal with your feedback from the enemies they’re all they’re all strategies for dealing with uh the foreigner in some way or the flora in some way right and and the bigger problem that that you’re sort of on to class which which i you know i think is nuanced and hard for people to appreciate now i’ll try to do it i’ll try to do a reasonable job of of sort of exemplifying it is when you’re engaged in a community there’s all kinds of different people at different levels of understanding and different levels of capability of understanding because we reduce understanding to something anybody can have at any level and that is not correct like i talk about things all the time and i know half the people listening do not have the level of understanding that i wish that they did and that’s not a bad thing by the way necessarily sometimes it is because sometimes they get the wrong impression they put things together the wrong way because of that they need to know that their level of understanding they have is correct when it’s correct and if you stop there and sometimes people do then sometimes it seems like that’s a bad thing or it seems like that’s a problem or it seems like something went horribly wrong but maybe not like maybe that’s not a bad thing now should you go into depth on some things like look man if i were like hanging out with peterson every day in private and such not or for a couple of hours or whatever there are things i would tell him that i’m not going to go into on any kind of public forum that i sometimes go into in private forums on my discord or whatever with people who are engaged and understand that critique in private is different from critique in public right which is different from the critique you have in your head those those are three different types of critique that should be different and if they’re not that’s a that’s a bad thing right those those sorts of things maybe he should go into this more maybe he should go into that more i don’t know i’d love to have a conversation with him and see what he thinks whether or not he’s even considered going into certain topics more or de-emphasizing other topics less i mean there’s a bunch of stuff about why people followed hitler that i would like everybody to understand i don’t think peterson actually is taken into account whether he knows those things or not is irrelevant right but i’d love to find out but the quick but then even if that’s true and he agrees the question is should he because maybe he shouldn’t i don’t know the answer to that i’m not going to pretend that i do like i have no freaking idea should you should you tell everybody that well yeah the reason why people followed hitler is because he saved germany from certain destruction and nobody thought that was possible actually zero people zero nobody that’s actually real important to know because then it makes it all make sense well that’s why they followed him because he basically performed a miracle and if somebody performs a miracle on that scale like saving a country and not only saving like people do not understand germany was so big and became so big so fast that hasn’t been replicated since there hasn’t been a rags to riches story on the scale of a country or a scale of a geographical area that size since and we are still living in the legacy of german technology we have not advanced rocketry past what the germans had granted we took what they had and advanced it from their point but we didn’t get there on our own in the u.s or in russia the germans did that nuclear power yeah they got there first guys all the nuclear scientists were german all of them right like we’re still living in the shadow of the advancements of germany still like that hasn’t ended people don’t have any appreciation for that oh what why do people become nazis i don’t know maybe because hitler saved their country and brought them out of abject poverty and certain starvation because it was in a way that nobody saw coming and that nobody believed even after it happened yeah that’s why they followed hitler guy it ain’t no mystery to me i’m like well yeah i probably would too man i’m all in especially a guy like that who’s super charismatic who trained to be charismatic who fought and and you know used used language to its greatest advantage right and used showmanship to its greatest advantage and didn’t invent marketing by any means but used what we would call marketing to its greatest advantage and had the very best people around him helping him too by the way because again there’s no great men or rather there’s lots of great men but most of them don’t emerge right and there’s not a huge number of those like millions right but there’s probably probably a hundred thousand right but most of them don’t become great men or at least aren’t seen as great men because they don’t have the right guys around them hitler had some of the best generals that have ever lived right hitler had the experts in what we now call marketing like hitler had these things and he recognized them and he got them no wonder in the wake of what the treaty of versailles did to germany that he was able to command such respect because he basically did something impossible now should you tell everybody that i don’t know i mean i’m always taking a chance on that one because i do i do mention occasionally like i just did right but well because i i think generally people need to understand that like you’re not getting the full picture here and i understand that you’re not and i understand that that feels like you’re badly treated but also like maybe you can’t even appreciate the story that i told because you you don’t know like we don’t have poverty the way they did like i’ve heard people talk about poverty in the united states and i’m like we don’t have poverty in the united states i’m sorry we just kind of don’t i’m not saying universally but like compared to poverty in india or parts of africa are you kidding me there’s people in india right now walking down the street dropping dead of starvation that doesn’t happen here maybe somebody starves to death cooking food with cow dog yeah yeah yeah there’s all kinds of things going on in the world where there’s actual poverty where people are like dying because they can’t get water the u.s doesn’t really have that i’m not saying there’s zero but it’s almost zero and and even in those cases usually they have a place to stay or they could have had a place to stay but for their mental illness or their problem with authority or the fact they made a bad decision and got lost in the woods like mostly people don’t but that happens every day in india probably multiple times a day for all i know india’s got like a billion people like who knows how many of those people are actually starving to death at any given moment and never had a home or had a home and lost it almost immediately when they when they became quote old enough whatever old enough meant in their culture and they were cast out of their home because there were nine kids or whatever whatever situation there’s all kinds of situations in india we know nothing about like that’s kind of a big deal and then we talk about poverty in the united states and i’m always like what is wrong with us like why are we why are we broken in this way hey and and then and then i want you to go back to a place that was actually starving that hadn’t been because of a stupid treaty done by a bunch of greedy jerks uh called the french by the way uh that my family abandoned and would rather live in the freaking frozen unlivable tundra of canada than put up with really good bread damn french right well it should tell you something about them right like maybe they were bad people like they were like let’s get out of here and go live with the freaking beavers in an unlivable temperature fine fair enough right and and then and then to be under that that set of circumstances where half the people are demonizing and the other half are trying to help you and they can’t and the league of nations breaks up over this and woodrow wilson who is an idealist gets completely disenchanted with his own idea and quits because he can’t save germany and into the breach steps this great man who was part of that first world war who believed in that dream and then basically takes it to the next level to get back to um mr class you asked me about um or mr punk fast yeah you asked me about um uh embodiment and i’ve been ruminating on that and also i think it was tie into mark’s uh spiel there proper embodiment is the acknowledgement that risks are involved in participation okay so the risks are inherited almost everything you do right there’s a risk in going to the party there’s a risk you’re not going to the party and the way you know that you’re in properly in properly embodying concepts ideas situations is your willingness to accept those risks when you deny those risks or try to leave a priori and try to filter them out and say like i can just do something and we’ll see what happens like that never like that that never happens like we’ll see what happens like you kind of have yeah exactly you kind of you kind of have some sense of what might happen but you’re kind of denying that there’s going to be risks so to tie some things together oh i didn’t want to interrupt you that’s that’s that’s that i hope that helps i gotta go say that was my brain fries okay brains um to tie some things together uh so kind of going along with the the comment section with peterson and charisma and embodiment um there it seems like if you take twitter for example you have some a lot of intellectual people on twitter and there’s different reasons for this but um it seems to be more focused on the person maybe we could say the pursuit of charisma rather than the pursuit of wisdom or finding um mutual ground and kind of innovating and and we could say that goes back to uh your definition of embodiment too um the the fear of of risk of trying to do that and and maybe we could also add on to that so there’s a focus on the news rather than a focus on these deeper issues and um and not ignoring the nihilism that gets created when we don’t pursue contemplating them yeah well i i like what you said jesse it’s really good actually that was really good about embodiment that was a good insight taleb talks about this right like what humans the way humans actually act is based on risk calculation now you can argue their risk calculation is off and that’s why they make bad decisions that’s a reasonable argument taleb talks about that to some extent but we actually act based on risk and and that’s what’s important to realize and the problem with appealing to intellectual people say on twitter i would argue intellectuals not on twitter the articulate people are and we can’t discern the difference between somebody who say actually intelligent or actually smart and somebody who just speaks well like sam harris that goes sam harris speaks well but he’s not that bright i’m sorry he’s just absolutely not he speaks out his ass all the time very obviously too i’m surprised people don’t notice but they don’t notice because the enchantment of his speech which is both tonal and in his articulation if somebody can weave together a good story then you will ignore that the story is wrong and people do this all the time and you know what doesn’t matter their iq i don’t care what your iq is the odds that you will find an error in a story that’s that’s well told are actually very low because people are looking for cooperation all the time and they want to get along in general there’s disagreeable people like me who just don’t care but like for the most part that’s what they’re looking for and so when they hear a good story tied together well they’re like all in and that’s why i say no you should interrupt somebody the minute they make an error because once they make an error but they tie it in two or three layers out you forget the error and then what they said sounds right and and maybe that doesn’t work on me but it works on the audience and then if you and then at the end you try to disrupt their story it’s much harder to knock the block out from under it because people just heard a good story and they want to hold on to that because they understood it that’s why i interrupt people by the way that’s the big reason and i did want to uh before i go on here i i i did want to uh go through some of these uh comments uh oops anselman the germans were atrociously treated exactly uh elizabeth war reparations did the job right and after each war yeah they really were mistreated after each war uh and in some hospitals here it has happened yeah it’s uh nice rant mark thank you elizabeth i i liked it don’t forget the bloodbath of world war one yeah well how is all this stuff i was how is hitler born he’s born in a bloodbath he’s baptized in the bloodbath it is before war one that’s the best way to look at it right and i i you know i i argue there wasn’t a second world war it was just one big world war with a break in between world war one was an outcome of general decline or rejection of christianity in france germany and britain blame the darwin mythology i agree with that to some extent but at the same time it’s the over adoption of treaties as a solution to a problem right i mean it’s and there’s books about this although they don’t they don’t couch it the way i’m going to couch it the reliance on the treaties instead of reliance on looking at good and evil which is facilitated by exactly what you what you pointed out ansimil which is you know a religious a strong religious tradition that teaches you the discernment between good and evil the reliance on treaties for that the propositional reliance is the thing that causes world war one like nobody disagrees with that they all say it’s bad treaties the question is why were you relying on three treaties you idiot and and a lot of hey has been made about well they this leader just made a bad decision because he followed the treaty that is true but the question is why did he follow the damn treaty and that is not so clear and and yeah elizabeth peterson charisma and comments exact yeah exactly uh yeah it it really is uh ansulman man as ape goes to war for evolutionary supremacy right right and that’s why you see war although i still argue the propositionally stuck people the ones that talk about things in that way are the ones that are causing the war and i like i you can’t you can’t say that post ukraine and post palestine israel hamas like you can’t you can’t say you don’t see that now it’s pretty obvious i mean if you’re not seeing it then you just have like some kind of block and fair you probably do uh the ten thousand dollar christmas silk pajamas now fair oh baptized in in bloodbath title for chapter two why don’t you write the book elizabeth and then i don’t have to or at least write me all the chapters and send them to me you you have my email um ansulman you may also have two funded wars and revolutions some back both sides well yeah look almost all revolutions are backed by smart people or intellectuals of the time who want control and back anarchists and validate anarchists i mean peterson talks about this with the coolax right also explicitly the the the murder that caused world war one that’s explicitly what happened right you have two different sides funding the same anarchists so that they will kill the person who is most on their side by the way which has just been like the whole world war one like man the way that started is so screwy it just it doesn’t sound believable uh but the more you dig into it the more you’re like well that’s weird because the whole thing is weird the russians and the germans are trying to start a war and they’re using the same anarchy groups to do it and paying them money because they want the war and they think they can control how it unfolds and they just turn out to be wrong and then hitler and stalin actually figure all this out by the way later and that’s why they rose to power after world war two or as the result of it because they knew what was going on and they knew where those idiots went wrong and they took over because they were just smarter like they were actually smart they weren’t like sam harris smart they were real smart they weren’t twitter smart most of the people on twitter aren’t smart most of the people on twitter are articulate and and that and we confuse those two and they’re hard to tease apart like i’m not i’m not saying like well you should know better i’m not saying that i’m saying like it’s hard to know especially medium like that where all you have is articulation to go on how do you know which articulation is correct and which articulation is wrong that’s the battle right now is what who’s actually lying about masks and who isn’t i don’t know like to some extent i mean actually maybe i do know but that’s because i’ve read actual papers on this stuff and most people haven’t read a white paper in their lives uh including people with alleged phd’s whether they have them or not and and that’s the problem um can we um can we just before i dropped out i think anselman actually had a great point to um ruminate on for everyone this week with some faithful other wounds of a friend so when you get that feedback and you need to admit to yourself that that feedback will not be received neutrally and i’ve actually been harping on this i’m doing that this week if you are putting in my channel to some yeah my channel my three my my one of my four threads which is awakening to the market crisis mr class if you want to search that up on okay you find some muscles there but one of the things i’ve been ruminating on since i’ve actually been getting feedback from doing a small training course is that to realize that anytime you get feedback you’re not going to receive it neutrally it that is that is just not the case you will never be able to apply logic reason and rationality to feedback like that’s the myth there is that anytime you get any sort of signal you and it’s not going to come in a nice neat box for you to react neutrally to it’s always going to you’re always going to interpret feedback through some level of emotionality how you deal with that you may be able to apply logic reason and rationality may be able to i’m really i’m i’m suspect of that mark’s optimistic i’m suspectful because i think i think it’s better to assume that you err more towards the irrational than the rational i think you have to develop the skill to be rational and even then rationality is not um not the sport of being objective right right it’s rationality is kind of like a coherence theory or like an embodiment theory which is kind of something we’ve been under the surface it’s actually specifically anti-objective from people that yeah yeah we’re gonna get too too much into second word stuff again brain fright guys don’t get covered but yeah coming back to coming back to um coming back to the the heart of what i’m trying to put forward is that um that those wounds of a friend or those people that you trust you know you have to accept that risk and that that risk also comes with that degree of faith um that if someone’s told you this and they’re a person that you perceive to be a friend and have in having emitting to yourself that the friend enemy distinction is a natural phenomenon like you can’t get around that but if you’ve accepted this person uh to be in your friend category um you have to have that faith or meet that that risk that the feedback you’re getting is is valid and then you cannot you know you kind of have to deal with that emotion or the emotionality to receiving that feedback or those wounds to yeah which is basically wounds are you know are the the poetic nature so i’m just kind of taking wounds out put it as feedback and then we’ll put it back in now you okay this means there in that context and you’re and you’re and you’re saying you’re tying this into the definition of embodiment that you hit in some ways okay it’s giving you kind of kind of giving a symbolic or poetic nature to it and putting it into a practical sense you know that’s why we have to ruminate contemplate why do the person say that way and getting to that is very difficult getting to that sense of because you are going to embody that feedback or you’re gonna it’s gonna it’s going to affect you in some way like and you’re just gonna have to deal with that uh andre do you have anything to say i just i just want to i didn’t want to uh take all the uh i had a few things to say a while while ago um but it was on a comment like there was way way up in the thread okay maybe a bit of a digression at this point all right i don’t mind either way jesse how are you doing you taking off what’s what’s going on yeah i’m i’m yeah i’m i’m fading now take care everyone i’ll probably take off for now i’ve been up since six take care oh take care not to see you see you jesse so and you’re taking off class you’re gonna yeah well thanks thanks for engaging it’s good to it’s good to finally have you on the stream it’s it’s it’s great to see you and talk to you in person that’s that’s very helpful uh yep i i i i wanted to do something like this for a while but it’s just um you know uh i i’m more i’m really introverted so it’s kind of working up the the nerve to to come on cam and stuff oh good well i’m glad you did let’s you know do it again like i love i love having this engagement really it really helps me to talk to people in person whether it’s on the discord server or on a live stream because then i can figure out what i’m missing or what people need that i because like all this stuff is i just lived it my whole life trying to explain it to people is very hard and without feedback it’s impossible so i really appreciate it okay uh i’ll uh talk more with you all you guys uh hear more from andre next time since couldn’t hear uh what his thoughts didn’t get to him so great um thanks for having me anytime my friend good to see you have a great night yeah um i do want to address this uh this little question here lazarus can you name that process you were describing when people fall for the therefore even when the initial statement was wrong very helpful concept but i need to work it out a bit in my mind i am going to call that story enchantment that’s what i’m going to call it and so there’s tonal enchantment where look i really want you to understand what i’m saying and believe me i can lower my voice and go monotone and some people that know me yell at me when i do this because they find it very scary because i do know how to do it let’s be clear about this if i wanted to totally enchant you i probably could i’m not super good because i don’t practice it because i don’t think it’s fair um then there’s this idea of articulation where what you’re saying may or may not be well connected but you’re using these very interesting sounding words and so you might even make up a word like i heard this recently today um where somebody was describing something and they were describing a phenomena accurately okay and as they were describing this phenomena accurately they used this word uh diablo’s or diablo so or something like that which is a bastardization of a spanish word it’s completely meaningless term by the way it’s not that they weren’t describing something but they were just using a bs word now the other things they were saying were equally unconnected to reality so what what they were doing sounded good but it didn’t make any sense at all that articulation enchantment is thoroughly different from story enchantment story enchantment is i was at my job and i got fired and the reason why i got fired is because my boss didn’t like me and the reason why he didn’t like me is because i came in late one day and when he confronted me about that i basically told him well that’s too bad there’s nothing you can do about it i’m gonna come in late whenever i want okay when in actual fact the boss didn’t fire me his boss fired me and the reason why his boss fired me is because i screwed up but i didn’t tell you any of that and now you have a story in your head that sounds good and it makes sense but actually it’s built on a lie and things like that happen all the time and people just lie about things and sometimes they don’t know they’re lying to be fair to them like a lot of people aren’t malicious they just lie to a lot of people tell you things to convince themselves that they’re true because we outsource our sanity as pastor paul says over and over again and we’re not going to believe in our own lies over and over again and so what that means is that if i can convince andre that one of the stories i want to believe in my head is true he’ll validate it for me and then i’ll i’ll be it’ll be easier for me to believe my own lie people do that all the time and it’s not malicious which is not to say there isn’t malicious since out there there’s plenty of it lots of snakes on the internet guys uh and there’s lots of unintentional snakes on the and that’s the problem story enchantment is real you can tell somebody a bad story and they’ll believe it like you can you can tell somebody oh well this is just evolution right like like there’s a you know what there is there’s a personal evolution that you can go through okay there cannot be such a thing as a personal evolution that is the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard okay evolution happens on the scale of multiple generations multiple generations there’s no such thing as a personal evolution that doesn’t make any sense at all and and you’re also doing weird things like you’re presuming better by using the term evolution but and the story of evolution is most things fail and get wiped out by the quote process of evolution or whatever natural selection just really filters out failures first and anything it doesn’t filter out is a success fair enough but also like look at how it works it it’s not a positive driven thing it’s a negative driven thing all the bad things get filtered out and there’s way more of them you can imagine only the good things survive that survival of the fittest that’s what’s part of evolutionary theory set it’s a bad story but also it only measures on the scale of multiple generations you cannot apply it to an individual so when people start telling stories about a personal evolution they’ve already lied to you and then they put something together and you think oh yeah that makes total sense but they’ve lied to you by giving you a positive framework already because evolution is already a positive affect framework it’s like oh you’ve evolved you’ve gotten better have you though would you say that story enchantment like is a form of trying to validate someone who is in denial by using a lie of a mission in weaving a narrative so you sort of tell the story like oh so my boss fired me um because apparently like i didn’t do this thing but i i i swear i did it um but you leave out a key detail like well i didn’t really do it and also i was late and also this and also that and if the external force validates it you can then say yeah yeah i was in the right rather than having to own up to the truth that like oh okay maybe i messed up right and you’re not getting better like like maybe the external forces are responsible for your situation maybe but is that helping you get better because if it’s not maybe you shouldn’t worry about whether or not the external forces did that you know is what good does it do you yeah maybe capitalism oppressed you whatever the hell that might possibly mean which is garbage nothingness who cares you know maybe maybe the courts haven’t been just to you okay now what you still have to make yourself better think what doesn’t that doesn’t change what you have to do at all but by taking that framework that you’ve been oppressed you’re really oppressing yourself in the process because you’re saying well i’ve got these constraints i’m not going to try and get past them because like i’ve already been hard done by so like why try yeah well and and that’s why again i interrupt people when they make a bad move because once they make that bad move and they tell you that bad thing and they keep going you get like a john verveke thing where people are like oh yeah he’s absolutely right on something he’s absolutely wrong about because he started from bad axioms like you know these people they talk about drugs and they go oh yeah see there was this there was this uh study that was done on ptsd and according to the study a bunch of people got better okay did you read the study because like the number of people that got better and the number of people that got worse are equal and then there’s some number of people that there was no change for and and that sample sizes as well but that doesn’t sound like a good idea anymore like it sounds like a good idea when you just talk about oh a number of people got better but if the number of people that got better and the number of people got worse is equal and there’s a bunch of people there’s no change for i don’t it sounds like a net neutral to me it doesn’t sound like a plus except there’s a negative because you you’ve got to have the drug you’ve got to dispense the drug right and then and then if you have another system which you do by the way and this is in the literature i’m surprised no one ever talks about this except i know why it’s called evil right all those effects that they talk about with psychedelics every single one of them is achievable without the psychedelics every single one now does it take longer yes am i saying you should not ever use psychedelics for any therapeutic purpose no i’m not saying that although i am leaning in that direction because contrary to everybody’s ridiculous belief we have been studying these things pretty pretty regularly for 70 years there wasn’t a scientific suppression of studying psychedelics that just never happened they’re they’re like every other thing in science there have been cycles where they’ve had more research on it and less research on it but there was never a time for example where there was no research in marijuana or there was no research in in lsd or there was no research in psilocybin or there was no research that never happened ever not in the u.s and not worldwide that’s the other thing everybody uses the rest of the world they’ve been studying this stuff too guys it’s not only the u.s the problem is it just never found that positive bang that everybody talks about could exist it might exist but it hasn’t been found in 70 plus years yeah also as a side of like reading the papers um whenever there’s a result that comes out something like there’s a correlation between like psychedelic use and like an increase in general well-being or whatever it is people don’t actually read the paper and they don’t look to the what’s called piercings are like the strength of the correlation and they could see that it’s a very very weak correlation and often it will say something like um there was like not a statistical significance of benefit from those who took the drug and those who didn’t and so they’re just looking at what will be the abstract saying like oh okay this it’s proven that like there’s a link between them therefore it must be a strong link but if you actually read it it says like well it’s not really enough to prove that it’s beneficial and i think that goes on a lot with like the psychedelic research yeah it goes on a lot with psychedelic lazard scientism conveniently leaves out many pertinent facts right like one of them is that a lot of the benefit from psychedelics comes at the very margins so for the people who are completely screwed everything else has already failed uh psychedelics actually has a measurable effect and actually for everybody else it actually doesn’t and that’s in the research been in the research for 70 years and it’s consistent it’s been consistent in the research for 70 years and nobody mentioned that they don’t say hey you know what if you don’t have extreme psd or you don’t have an extreme borderline personality disorder problem you don’t have an extreme problem with you know whatever psychological thing uh there there isn’t an effect from psychedelic nobody tells you that nobody they conveniently leave out a pertinent fact uh to your point that happens all the time i’ve read some of these papers i’ve read a lot of those papers actually quite a few and yeah they’re fairly consistent throughout the decades they never show anything different uh that doesn’t mean they never will like never say never sort of thing but like come on guys 70 years of research like when are you going to give this guy when are you going to give this this quest up like at this point it’s it’s you know i think you have to be in the margins like if you’re not on the margins i’m like you’ve tried everything and you’re looking for like like the answer like the like the last solution possible then psychedelics would fit in there but for everyone else um i think it’s just turning from like oh well i’ve got mild depression that comes on sometimes they’re just going to end up in um being enchanted because they’re going to have this temporary illusion of um a transcendental experience come out of it and usually not integrate it and go oh like i i’m cured i’m better maybe if i’ll get even more better if i do more right and that and that’s the soft soft levels of addiction and and also uh you know a a lot of that problem is wrapped up in in pure perception like people get better without that and then if those two things coincide you know and and that can happen uh but yeah elizabeth interesting fact about positive effects for extreme cases yeah but elizabeth this is one of those things this is where reading nassim taleb is useful it it’s not that much of a leap either which is why i’m a little surprised people don’t don’t know this in the extreme the split is 50 50 actually for better and worse so what that means is that yeah in the extreme you’re more likely to get a big noticeable result with any random change that’s correct this is exactly what you should expect to see this is not a a breakthrough finding and they don’t know that because they most scientists and i think peterson touches on this taleb talks about this a lot they don’t know statistics at all like they just don’t know it most math people don’t know statistics half of the statisticians don’t know statistics that’s that they made up p values and r values which are complete garbage mathematically speaking any mathematician they’ll tell you oh yeah it’s bad well it’s bad statistics and and nobody says that like nobody mentions that no no no the p values are garbage they’re complete they’re complete fantasy there’s a thing in like mathematics or like a research design isn’t there where people fudge the p values in order to get a study done yeah it was called p hacking p hacking yep p hacking is very common you look up p hack it’s all over the place this is one of the many replication crisis problems in in science right it’s one of the many things causing the replication crisis you can look up replication for big he talks about that lazard was just talking about peterson’s meat diet in this regard most people don’t have his autoimmune condition or his daughters right and can just relax and eat veggies and fruits well i don’t recommend that veggies are evil fruits are right yeah i’m not a veggie guy yeah it’s true the problem is a lot more people have immune disease didn’t realize it and also i know that eating the meat will fix most of what sirs causes to cirs you can look up sirs if you have any issues sirs doctors are rare but they can do amazing things now elizabeth ah in the extreme 50 50 split thank you you’re welcome yeah it is not all that surprising if i can go back to so what was it two hours ago mills made a comment saying do you think intuition needs insight not to be delusional and i have a comment on that that when someone is delusional any insight that they have is by its very nature going to be under delusion so you may think that you’ve got extra insight but that insight is all pierced together with like paranoid thoughts or um delusional thinking so it’s not really going to bring you out or enhance um your intuition your intuition in that moment of time is going to be wrong so you’re thinking is going to be um a delusional process of well it feels right in my gut like that everyone’s talking about me and that um like these videos are sort of pointing at me um people talking about me in the media it must be me but there are no names to it and uh they’re using code words and like you just dive into that level of thinking where all your insights they appeal to you and they seem like perfectly rational to you but your intuition is wrong in that state it’s been enchanted that’s a good point yeah that’s a good point yeah you’re self-enchanting i mean delusion is a form of self-enchantment the best way out of delusion is somebody to backhand you and i’m not joking like you need an extreme physical intervention to get out of delusion most times and on the internet people don’t have that so the internet tends to increase people’s delusion on average i’ve seen it for years for decades like the internet increases delusion pretty reliably and and that’s part of the issue and anselman right the advocates for psychedelics seem to conform with the same pseudo spiritual new agey religious ideas yeah and again they they fail to mention that the most likely outcome for psychedelics for people who aren’t in the extremes is schizophrenia the number one cause of schizophrenia according to the literature if you’ve ever read it which i know you probably haven’t but i actually have is is psychedelic use it’s and and not just like psychedelic drug use because it turns out that for a non a non-zero percent of the population i don’t know what that percent is i think it’s 20 it’s been a long time marijuana causes hallucinations i know people have hallucinations smoking marijuana so for those people marijuana is a hallucinogen marijuana use causes schizophrenia in lots of people like that is not a zero number and and look it may not even be a double digit percentage i don’t care it’s too high and and that’s too high a risk taleb talks about this we calculate risk that’s what we calculate when we’re delusional our risk calculation is wrong so our intuition is off you know right that and and we do need an outside corrective and the problem with an outside corrective is that at any given time any outside corrective could be making a mistake and that’s what we’re upset about all other people are making a mistake that affects us yeah and you’re doing the same to them by the way maybe have a little a little bit of grace and gratitude for them trying to fix your sorry ass which probably doesn’t deserve it you know like come on at a certain point like i’m i’m grateful that adam pushed back and said no mark your your monologue makes no sense fair i told him that i really appreciate that right i’d say that uh also like well schizophrenia like is common being like um catalyzed by marijuana it can be more likely that something like a psychosis state um is induced so it’s not something that’s like long term um it’s like episodic um but oh yeah like lsd does that immediately right take anybody on lsd and say something stupid to them like did you ever think about your nose and then watch them for the next hour or two as they go like this said wow and then they start to have all these freaking insights on their nose it’s like okay that’s psychosis and it’s temporary fair enough and from that temporary psychosis they might have insights but are they any good well i think the thing that’s more pernicious with lsd is um the precluded proclivity for people to fall into thought loops very quickly right so yeah like i said it’s not even about your nose they’ll loop on hours for a few hours well you say like what did i just say what did i just say do you know what i just said what did i just say and just that sort of triggers will go like oh what what what did he just say like was it he’s saying what did i just say or what did he just say and it trips the brain into sort of looping over and over and it’s a simple thing cognitively to jump out of when you’re sober but on lsd it’s a ruminant ruminated force right you you can’t not analyze it because it’s a novel and it’s it has a potentiality for like trends uh transcendence or catharsis because everything is innately interesting to you in that state yeah yeah i want to address this lazard i seek this group out because you all often say no look at it this way and consult one another yeah i’ve seen many people follow strange biases like twin flame nonsense and i can’t get them out well look you can’t get other people out you can only exemplify the right answers and hope that they follow and there’s a lot of dust up uh around the various peterson sphere elements where they are struggling with this right they’re struggling with do we rebel do we cooperate what do we do and they’re having a problem resolving that like are hairy picks good our enemy’s okay like they’re just struggling with that like i don’t struggle with that i don’t ah here’s the boundaries you’re either in you’re out it’s not that hard you want to be in you can work at it maybe you can get in or maybe you’re just not capable of ever being in i don’t know i have no idea you know but that’s okay too like you you don’t have to be in like it’s not it’s sort of not required benjamin franklin speaking of delusions about the nose have you read that book diary of a madman by gogel no i have not read that book um that book is one of the funniest and saddest books i’ve read okay well reading is hard i’m dyslexic so probably not gonna read it i got too many books to read already and i still haven’t read maps of meaning i gotta like dive into that that’s just such i’ve tried like three times that book is a bear and it’s the bear of a book it is so dense it is ridiculous absolutely insane can’t believe people have even read it i’m like what are you nuts 900 pages isn’t it or something like that yeah but it’s it’s not it’s like 10 million pages because he’s over optimized his wording to such a ridiculous degree that he’s just like saying so much in each sentence it’s dumb like each sentence is like a page of information it’s really dense and that screws me up because like i just extract things really well from books and like wow and and that’s the that’s the problem like that density level is really high and i have to focus and i just haven’t been able to i haven’t been able to focus on that you have to read and then reread and then you go back to reference when you like a different part of the page and you get to the next page i don’t even necessarily have to do that but i have to read and then i have to integrate and the integration phase takes a very long time with a dense book yeah like like playdoh’s republic i am so glad that took like nine months for us to read because like i couldn’t have absorbed it any faster and and that’s the issue like it it’s just yeah i hear lazarus i have i have the audiobooks of maps of meaning those are the worst for me i can’t do audiobooks and i listen to it like every six months but i can’t take it all in yeah i should probably attempt to take take the text at some point i i am i am dyslexic so when i read i tend to just absorb everything because i can’t afford to read it again and i can’t go fast anyway so my reading comprehension is very high like i read something once and i get more out of it than somebody that’s read it six times for whatever reason it’s such a freaky thing with me personally it’s not a skill i developed it’s something i was forced into or born with as a result of my severe dyslexia i’m severely dyslexic you wouldn’t know it because i i’ve found ways over the years to correct for it really fast but like i’m unbelievably dyslexic it’s bad it’s really bad every once in a while well a few streams ago i typed private wrong and didn’t notice so yeah one of my one of my quote friends reconsidering that title for him was like oh yeah i took a screenshot of it screw you you suck he showed it to me on his phone he just shoved it right up my my tail i’m like thanks a lot i i’ve heard that um so there’s a i can’t remember her name there was a stand-up comedian who um did a couple sets on having dyslexia and how she’s grown up with it and adapted to it and she was talking about like both the coping mechanisms and how she re-taught herself in order to sort of um get over to use a bad phrasing uh the condition yeah and it seems to me like it’s a mental retraining that’s somewhat similar to what some people with asperger’s go through where they teach themselves to identify emotions um sort of like looking at for the social cues and triggers and then how to react instead of going what’s called m- theory what’s called masking right yeah yeah there’s definitely things you can do lazarus book club with good people are the best yeah well and the good people matters too right i had a lot of help with a few books that really changed my life once i grasped oh that’s great well yeah look i mean if you want um uh to engage with uh sort of my uh my journey through plato’s republic if you go to this youtube channel you can find the playlist of the texas wisdom community so that’s me emmanuel and danny mostly a few other people really helped out are going through plato’s republic and uh you know you can read along with it it’s roughly a half a chapter of a video or something um and so you know you read the chapter watched a video read the next half of the chapter watched a video sort of a thing and uh maybe that’ll help you i don’t know i enjoyed it uh i didn’t ever expect i’d read plato’s republic but that worked out really well uh and and i’ve since you know been able to uh you know contemplate that and i do have a i’m still working i had the book open earlier today i’m still working on my video on on plato’s cave and why everyone’s lying to you about it it’s coming i promise but uh with that note look we’ve been going almost three and a half hours been a long time so i’m gonna shut it down uh i thanks for jesse and and jess mon and and uh class punk for coming on that’s fantastic and andre of course it’s great to have you um yeah i mean we’re building more momentum which is nice yeah this isn’t just me this big cooperation behind the scenes there’s a lot of people involved and even in the live streams i mean yeah i produce them kind of by myself sort of but a lot of the material i get a lot of help with and and you’re welcome to join in right like we’re always looking for uh more people uh to uh to engage and uh lazareth oh this would be great i just got to use copy recently kismet right there thanks you’re most welcome sir um and andre what do you got for closing thoughts i believe to anything sort of in this uh don’t ruminate on what we’ve said contemplate it and then reflect on it later to learn uh and hopefully re-watch the video because uh more views for mark uh is better thank you sir i appreciate that yeah look these are important ways of thinking about the world i’m not going to claim like you should only use my definition of reflection contemplation and rumination um but i think it’s the most helpful way to think about it and i gave it a lot of thought and a lot of help from matthew péjot obviously who inspired me to even do this and uh and uh look have a great night and a great week everybody and i hope to see everybody back next week and we’ll do it all again and uh until then uh contemplate reflect and ruminate see you all later