Open Mic： Holy Week Ruminations (fY8GHlII7Xw)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=fY8GHlII7Xw

Happy Easter, everyone. It’s good to be here. It’s good to be here in the world where our Lord is truly risen. And yeah, it’s good to be here on Monday rather than last night because, well, I was pretty tired yesterday and I don’t think I should be doing this when I’m quite that tired. Here we are today. Now in my new position as bishop secretary, Holy Week is still a very busy time for me because I’m responsible for putting on all of the liturgies here at the cathedral in Fargo. And one of the blessings of that is that Bishop Fulda asks all of the seminarians to come back from their different seminaries and to be the acolytes, to be the altar boys at the Holy Week liturgies. And so, you know, I’ve three years that I was in a parish really enjoyed getting the lads together, usually elementary or middle school aged kids, and walking them through the extra special liturgies that we have during Holy Week, Mass of the Lord’s Supper, Good Friday Mass of the Pre-Sanctified or the Easter Vigil. But there is something fun about having men who are in training and in formation to become priests someday being the ones to do this. And enjoy a certain level of fraternity with them that would be rather odd to do with an elementary student. And just a lot of joy having them around and getting to know the men who are pursuing the priesthood in the seminary right now. Plus, many of them have done this several times before and they have gotten kind of good at it, which is occasionally alluring when it’s my first year doing this and somebody pipes up, last year we did it this way, Father, and I’m like, well, okay, Father Miller isn’t here anymore, I’m here, so why don’t you just do what I’m saying right now. So even though I’m in this position where I’m no longer in a parish anymore, I still had a very blessed and happy Easter. It sounds like many of you have also had very happy Easter’s. Hello Emma, Elijah, Teo, Josh, and AP, glad to have you all here and I’ve got the day off, thank the Lord, and hopefully some of you guys do too. So anything special or significant occurred to you during the Easter celebrations? Go ahead and drop it in the chat or even come into the stream yard and we can talk about it or whatever happens to be on your mind. But yeah, yeah, there were a few things that I did this year. I usually don’t like changing things the very first year I’m somewhere, but a few things that I was quite intent about and I thought that we would be able to do one of them in years past. It’s been a, you know, for the Easter vigil before the mass begins, you light a fire and light the the paschal candle off the fire there. And that’s a little ceremony that we do outside. And in years past, it’s been a fire made out of isopropyl alcohol, which is indeed a true fire, but really doesn’t seem like something that I don’t know, St. Augustine, St. Gregory the Great, St. Jerome would have done. So I was able to arrange with some gentlemen here from the cathedral to have a real wood fire. And I think that that just gives it a little more, a little more gravity to the celebration. And then a second thing, I actually didn’t arrange this. It just kind of happened, but I gave it my blessing is during the fifth week of Easter and Holy Week, there’s a tradition of covering all of the images and statues inside the church. And in the cathedral, they’ve been observing that for many years, but there’s one image that they had never been able to cover, and that was the crucifix hanging over the altar. It’s about, I don’t know, 20 or 30 feet off the ground. And it is a little, a little bit difficult to handle. One of the gentlemen from the parish had figured out a way to drape a bar over the corpus and had this extending pole that could come off of it. And during the Gloria, when all of the other images were being uncovered, I had one of our largest seminarians with that pole, and he was able to uncover it during the Gloria while the lights were going up and all the candles were being lit. So I was very happy about that. And I’m very happy to see you Emma. How are you doing? Happy Easter. I’m good. Happy Easter. How are you? Doing all right. It’s, you know, you put a lot of energy out and then it’s all done because I had Palm Sunday Mass. Then I had the christen Mass on Tuesday, the christen Mass. Oh yeah. When we bless all of the holy oils for the diocese and we invite a bunch of, as many priests as we can get. We had a snowstorm that day, so some of them weren’t able to make it. But about half were able to make it. So that’s okay. We’ve certainly done worse. And then the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord’s Supper, Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified, that’s the old name for it, but there’s not a new name for it. So I’m just going to call it the old name. Easter Vigil. Is it a mass? So what does mass, Misa mean? Sent? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the mass is referred to the being sent out at the afterwards. So it’s the mass of the presanctified. Meaning? We don’t consecrate. You don’t consecrate the aphors. But there’s not ascending. Yeah, I suppose. I suppose. And the whole point is that the trinium liturgies are one big liturgy, so they don’t have an ending. That’s what some people say. That’s what I was always taught. That’s what some people say. Other people aren’t convinced. They just think that Roman liturgies in the very early days just had very stark beginnings and endings. And all of the niceties with the greetings and the dialogues and the blessings came to him and later. I don’t know. Then why would we take them out for just this? Because the more solemn the occasion, the more likely you are to observe ancient forms, and the less likely you are to modify things over time. That’s the theory. Anyway, I don’t know. I don’t really have a strong dog in that fight. Okay. That’s interesting. I hadn’t heard that take before, though. Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of poo-pooing the whole, oh, the tritium things are one continuous liturgy, so there’s no greetings or dismissals during Good Friday. But there is a greeting at the beginning of the Easter Vigil, so. True. Yeah. Yeah. And then I had on Easter Sunday the 10 a.m. mass, emceeing that for the bishop and the Latin mass at noon. So I was. Oh, nice. I was pretty done yesterday afternoon. Did you see your parents at all? Oh, yeah. They live like five minutes away from me. So. Get together for Easter dinner? Yes, yes. And two of my brothers came up from the Twin Cities, and my sister and brother-in-law were there, and a couple of just random family friends, including a 87-year-old priest. So it was a good Easter. Let’s see. Elijah went to his first Maude Thursday and Good Friday masses. It was beautiful. Yeah, yeah. Just love these liturgies. But they wouldn’t be special if we did them every week. They only happen once a year is what makes them special. 20 baptisms. Is he like in Rio de Janeiro? I can’t tell by that picture there. I’d be curious to know what region of the world you are in, AP, where you’re having 20 baptisms of teenagers. Oh, there goes Josh. The Newman Center at the university here had 10. Nice. Nice. So those were also teenagers in 20-somethings. Yeah. I mean, I guess we’re getting to the point where there were plenty of people raised by, we’ll say, Gen X, not church-going people who wouldn’t have bothered to get them baptized. Yeah, which is wild. North Korea was mostly Hispanic. Okay. Thanks for sharing, AP. Okay. You know, last year when I was in a parish, I got to work with a guy who was raised like that, right? I guess folks were just like, yeah, we’re not doing this church thing anymore. It didn’t work out for us when we were raised in it. And he was just really excited about it because he was finally getting it from the horse’s mouse for the first time. And things were just kind of connecting for him. It was all lighting up. And so I baptized him. You know, it was, and then Bishop reassigned me, so I can’t really follow with him as much as I’d like to. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, we didn’t have any baptisms at the cathedral this year, but we had, I think, 10 people come into the church from various Protestant denominations and three or four get confirmed because I think they missed it during COVID. Oh, man. Yeah. We’ll catch them up. We’ll catch them up. Don’t worry about it. So yeah. Yeah. We went to the Newman Center because they have better music. And I was curious. And we have friends in the choir there. And yeah, they had 10 baptisms, two conditional baptisms, and then a further 20 people getting received into the church and or just confirmed. Wood fire? I couldn’t get close enough to see. Okay. Okay. Smelled like it though. Okay. Very good. Very good. I’m all about the wood fire. Smelt like it. Yeah. It was, you know, like growing up, I had always seen, you know, the isopropyl alcohol fires, which count. They’re valid. Not saying you’re not allowed to do that. It is a fire. Nobody’s going to call that not fire. But I was in seminary. And for the first three years, I was in seminary. I was in Detroit. And I stayed in Detroit for Holy Week. They put on a retreat at the seminary there. It was really nice, actually. Kind of a break from the studies and all of that. And that was the first time I’d seen a wood fire at the Easter Vigil. We all went to the cathedral there. And they had like a special built fire pit outside of the cathedral or the Paschal fire. And I was like, this is awesome. And then when Bishop Fulda got here, he began to call us back to the Diocese for Holy Week. And it was back to the isopropyl alcohol fires. They’re like, man, someday, someday. And now I’m in a position where I can just do it. I can just fix it. Nice. But we still had isopropyl alcohol in case we had to have the fire inside because of like a blizzard or something. Yeah. I mean, you got to be prepared for that. We had gorgeous weather, actually. But that is one of the nicer things about being this far south compared to anywhere else I’ve lived is the weather is actually nice by the time Easter comes around. Yeah. Yeah. The weather can do whatever it wants in March and April here. Yeah. We are absolutely at the mercy of whatever air mass is above us. Now, is this your new house here? No, not yet. Okay. So, still working on? Still, we want to paint before we move our stuff. And we just haven’t had time to do all that much yet. So probably half, like midway through May is when we’re actually going to move. Okay. And so maybe your lease on your apartment isn’t up yet or? Yeah, it ends the end of May. And that’s only one month of overlapping payments. And it wasn’t worth trying to break it. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. One month. One month you can, six months would be a bit of an economic disaster. But one month. Yeah. Yeah. That gives you the flexibility to move on your pace rather than blasting through there. Yeah, which is really nice. So hopefully we can, we’ve picked out most of our paint colors. So that’s exciting. Okay. People put like little phrases on the wall. Like paint, like laugh, like no one’s watching. Dance like no one’s watching. Yeah. Usually they put them on signs and then hang them up. No, I’ve seen it like painted. Oh yeah. No, you can paint it right on the walls too. I’m just like, that’s awful. That is so dumb. And my parents thought the exact same thing because when we moved to Fargo, they bought a house and they had that kind of stuff on the wall. Within like three months it was painted over already. Yeah. Yeah. I think all the like words on the wall things are tacky. Generally, generally speaking. Sorry, mom. I know you have Bible verses in your kitchen. You shall not boil a kid in his mother’s milk. Okay. Got to keep that one on my mind. Fatty portion of the tale goes to the priests. Got it. Usually it’s things like come all you who are hungry and be filled. Things like that. I actually, I forget which one she has. I feel like it’s a Psalm actually. It’s definitely one of the like less tacky Bible verses you can hang in a kitchen. But come all you who are labor and a burden and I will give you rest or you spread the banquet before me. Yeah, I really don’t remember. I know it’s above the pantry, which means I have to like make an effort to look up high enough to actually read it. So I don’t actually look at it that much because I’m not that tall. Were you able to get home for Easter or did you call it? Unfortunately, no. But we hung out with a lot of friends here. The university doesn’t like recognize Easter as existing, basically. So yeah, you have today off, but not tomorrow. I don’t have. I don’t have today off. Gosh. I just have a grad student schedule, which means that I’m not expected to be anywhere until 130. Yeah. Yeah, my brother-in-law, he works at a hotel for the events and catering and he had to do this big stinking brunch yesterday and I was just like, grow a ham in the oven, guys, come on. It’s like a precooked ham. All you have to do is heat it up. This really isn’t that- Right? 79 cents a pound of my- 79 cents a pound. It’s not, but man, there’s just people going out on Easter. And so when he finally showed up, I’m like, I’m the only one who should be working on Easter. I think he found it amusing. So yeah. The bus, the buses take the day off. Yeah. But the university doesn’t give us Good Friday or Easter Monday off and like doesn’t even, I don’t think we even got one of those like generic, it’s a holiday for a religion emails, which I’m pretty sure you get for like other- Now, hold on. Yesterday was Transgender Visibility Day. Why weren’t they celebrating that? Oh yeah. I don’t think I got an email about that either. How about that? How about that? Yeah. What university? Is this a state university or- Yeah, it is. Wow. Huh. I did get an email from a student like, hey, when will my homework be graded? And I’m like, bro, it’s Easter. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, someday we’ll get Chris at the back. I probably won’t be around to see it, but we can make it happen. We’ve done it before. Careful, you’re gonna get shut down by YouTube or I don’t know something. Look, if they could have communists streaming of their utopias on YouTube, and they can have Christians streaming of their utopias on YouTube as well. Yeah, that’s fair. It was, I actually did, when I put out my book of revelation series, it was like during, it was like summer of 2021, so everybody was still kind of on edge, you know, about the world more so than now. And my first video actually got like briefly taken down. Oh. And I was like, I’m just talking about the Bible here, like, and then it went back down. What’s going on? So it must have just been like a computer take down. It just sees book of revelation and thinks this is misinformation. I mean, there is a lot of misinformation about the book of revelation. Yeah, but it’s. Well, yeah, but like, they’re not policing Catholic doctrine. Should YouTube care? Right, right. I wouldn’t want YouTube to be the one who would say, oh, this is against Catholic doctrine. There’s no, therefore it should be taken down. They don’t have the. Or interpretation of revelation. Yeah, so like they, they, they, they, they, they, they, do not have the authority to make that judgment, you know, but I think it was COVID misinformation they were worried about. Well, yeah, because I saw so many like the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast things. Yeah, and. The market, I mean, if you’ve seen Peugeot stuff on it, the market, the beast is actually much more prevalent than vaccines. It’s kind of everywhere. Yeah, that pattern exists on multiple levels. Yeah. What is a good source for interpreting revelation? Well, I will first mention my YouTube series, 11 parts going through the entire book of revelation. So I’m an excellent source, but the sources that I used, I liked Mr. Peugeot’s commentary on the number of the beast. I think that really kind of clicked things into place for me and helped me understand it. It’s actually that video that inspired me to do this series. And then I also used the Catholic commentary on sacred scripture. So there’s a whole series. I think they’re, I think they’re about done with the New Testament. There’s one volume that goes through a book of the Bible. Is this Ignatius Press? Yeah, Ignatius Press, Catholic commentary. Scott Hahn did like half of them. Sorry, what? Scott Hahn did like half of them. No, no, I think that’s a different thing. I’ll pull it up here. My parents have a bunch of this. The Scott Hahn ones are also excellent. I don’t know if he got to revelation, though. I think he did some different random ones. Here we go. Share screen. Here we go. So this is the one that I used. And this guy, Dr. Williamson, was actually a professor at Sacred Heart Major Seminary. I never had him for class, but, and this, this I found to be a very straightforward, easy to read, well researched, and well within the Catholic tradition. And it’s only, it’s only about that thick, you know, kind of a normal length book that an ordinary human being can read. So yeah, this was, this was between that and Peugeot. That was kind of my main thing. And also, you know, if you want something that’s going to be a little more general, you could get. Now, who’s the one? The trustworthy Ignatius Catholic Study Bible here. It’s not going to have as in depth notes as something like this, but this has got the whole New Testament in it with really solid notes. So yeah, those are good too. I should actually get one of those. So yeah, that’s what I recommend between you’ve got the free option, the cheap option, and the somewhat expensive option. So free options, me, I’m free. You don’t have to pay for YouTube, except with your soul via advertising or your morality via ad blockers. If they’re actually immoral, I don’t know. I don’t want to worry about it right now. It’s Easter. I want to be happy. Yeah. Parents raise me as a good left behind Christian. So I think I have the same reaction as YouTube whenever I see Revelation. It’s really interesting, actually. So it’s like nobody ever gave me kind of a like it. So in my catechism, in my being raised as a Catholic, any of that stuff, nobody ever gave me like the left behind dispensationalist, post-tribulation American Protestant teaching. Nobody ever taught me that. But the first time I read it and the time I heard about it, that’s how I interpreted it. As like a good Catholic kid. So it’s really interesting how deeply that’s gotten into things. And when I got to seminary, we had a class on Yawanin literature. So that covered the Gospel of John, the three letters, and the book of Revelation. And that kind of like softened things and fixed it. But it was just really interesting that into my Catholic head, these Protestant ideas came and lived rent free without anybody trying to put them there. I don’t know how it happened. I’m better now. I’m glad I’m better now. Are you still scared of the book of Revelation, Emma? No, I don’t think I ever was. I don’t think I’ve ever tried to interpret it particularly. I have been blessed, despite the fact that I’m the kind of person who goes to grad school in the humanities, with a pretty healthy, like, you know, I don’t think that’s my job, censor. And that definitely triggered that. So like, you know, I enjoy hearing it, the portions that are read out during mass. I enjoy the images. I don’t know if I’ve ever sat down and read it all the way through. But when it comes to interpreting it, it’s like, not my job. I’ll find someone I trust to listen to about that one. You know, that’s actually how the world needs to work because you can’t fit everything between your ears. No. Yeah. As much as people think that if you’re going to grad school, that’s your goal, it’s really not. Well, going to grad school, you get one very particular slice of the world and explore that in excruciating detail. Indeed. Like canon law. Yeah. Oh, man. Lots of left-hand- Or ancient- Jeff. Oh, my. Well, congratulations. Looks like you didn’t become Catholic yesterday, but look forward to having you a part of the club. Yeah. No. Book of Revelation is a part of the canon of scripture, so it’s inspired scripture. It’s just a little difficult to interpret. Maybe start with the Gospel of Mark. You know, if you’re going to get into the New Testament, start with the Gospel of Mark. It’s short, it’s punchy, a lot of action. Everything happens right away. No need to go straight for the Bible on hard mode. Yeah. Yeah. It’s really funny because I’m doing a reading challenge with a podcast I listen to. And it’s like books through the ages. So the idea is you read like they set up a list and you slot books in. And one of the slots is biblical times. And going through what people have picked for the book they read is very instructive to me as a cradle Catholic because it’s like, oh, I guess they haven’t read that before. I guess that’s probably apocryphal. That’s or deuterocanonical. That I guess that one’s deuterocanon. I guess that’s just a Catholic book, too. And it’s just all these books of the Bible that like I thought were just normal. But a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are Protestants. So they don’t have Maccabees in their Bible. They don’t have that. I knew they didn’t have Maccabees. I knew they didn’t have Tobit. I didn’t know about Judith, but I can’t say I’ve ever thought that hard about the book of Judith one way or the other. I’m reading it for the challenge because it’s short and looked interesting. It’s also a continuous narrative right through. So it’s fun to read. Yeah, those are fun. Hello, Elijah. Hello. How’s it going, guys? Going well. How are you? I’m doing great. I’m doing great. Yeah, yeah. You were at the Symbolic Word Summit, right? Yeah, yeah. We met just briefly. Okay, very good. Oh, now you’re right side up again. I’ve never done this before. Yeah, happy to have you here. So you said a little farther up here. You went to your first Mardi Fret Thursday and Good Friday Mass here. What did you think? It was beautiful. I don’t think I have a lot of words yet to kind of say anything about it. But I think I’m still thinking about the Easter Vigil I went to last year. That was actually my very first cap of mass was Easter Vigil. Oh, man. Talk about starting on hard mode. Yeah, it was great though. It was genuinely very impactful for me. Very, very impactful. Yeah, and this week was I wasn’t actually able to go to Vigil this year, which was sad because I really wanted to go. But I got to go Good Friday, especially. Got the Venner at the Cross. I had a procession through. I’m very new to a lot of this. So especially the actual going part. I’ve interacted with a decent bit of Catholic theology before. But actually being there is just not the same thing. So it’s a lot better. So yeah, very beautiful, very impactful. And I’m very grateful for going. So did you go up and venerate the Cross on Good Friday? I did, yeah. Okay, good, good. Yeah, I remember hearing a story of somebody who was on their way coming into the church from a Protestant background. And they were sitting at the Good Friday service with their sponsor. And it came time for the veneration of the Cross. And she just kind of like seized up. And so the friends started explaining, no, no, no, no. It’s not idolatry. It’s through the Cross that we’re going to Jesus. And she’s like, it’s not that. I don’t want to do this because look at what we’re venerating here. An instrument of torture. Oh, well, that’s a little different. So they went through with it, but it was like, boy, that’s a thing to kiss. And then there’s that scene from the Passion of the Christ when they’re putting the Cross on Jesus’s back. And the other robbers like, don’t embrace it, you fool. Oh, yeah, that’s our religion here. That’s what we do. Yeah, I was just like weeping like the entire time. And my wife went with me, too, which was really good. And I’ve been talking to the priest here. And I’ll go up and I’ll get blessed and everything. She hasn’t done that yet. So we’re in different places, but she went out with me and venerated the Cross. She didn’t kiss it, though, but she did. She kneeled and she made the sign of the Cross and everything. So it’s been a journey for sure. It’s been a journey for sure. I still have that one percent where I’m like, maybe I’ll go Eastern Orthodox just because I have that like Peugeot thing in me that I love. But at this point, I’m fairly confident it’s going to be Catholicism. And I’ve been talking to some Eastern Byzantine Catholic monks as well. I got in touch with. So that’s been a good waypoint for each because they understand like the Peugeot and Eastern Orthodox stuff. But then obviously, of course, during communion with Rome. So that’s been really helpful to me, too. Yeah. Well, I’ve been trying to bring as much of the Peugeot stuff in as I can. You know, every once in a while I’ll say, yeah, no, the Sistine Chapel is awful. Then I’ll get a look from people. You know, my bishop wasn’t impressed with me saying that the Sistine Chapel had heretical theology on the ceiling. It was just a private conversation. It’s not going to get me any trouble. Not depicting the father, that whole thing. But sure. What do I know? Right. I’m just a dumb priest in North Dakota. So going to canon law school. But yeah, there’s no canons against depicting the father’s soul. Yeah. Can’t enforce anything. I can just regale people with my opinions. So. What else is the internet for? Yeah. Yeah. Right. That’s why I’m always resist. What I have to say is important. People should listen. The preaching isn’t enough. Oh, goodness. So I’m just curious about the liturgy. I’m just curious about the logistics of how these things work in different places. So let’s go with the Holy Thursday Mass. Did they do the foot washing? Yeah, they did. I think there was about, I think you had to like sign up, you know, because there was a good probably 200 people there. Right. Right. We’re not going to wash everybody’s feet. Exactly. Yeah. So I think you just signed up before and they had probably maybe like 10 people go up and have their feet washed. Something like that. It is technically an optional right. But it doesn’t seem right to exclude it. Yeah. No, I love that too. I even even like in Protestant circles, whenever people have done that, I’ve always found it very, very meaningful. It’s kind of like all the things like it’s the sacramental nature of it. Like actually seeing it and having it done is just so much different than just like talking about it, you know? Yeah. And then, you know, you do the Eucharistic procession at the end of Mass and the Roman Missal gives you wide flexibility because this has to be able to done in basically any church anywhere. So did you actually leave the main body of the church for that? Yep. So the the parish that I go to is attached to a little, it’s a Norbertine college. And so there’s a there’s a shrine to St. Joseph there. So we went out of the main church, I guess. It’s all like connected in a building. So we went out into kind of like the I don’t know what you would call it, but there’s like the fountain is there. And then you go down like a hallway and there’s like a connected kind of little prayer chapel. I don’t know exactly what you call it. There’s a national shrine to St. Joseph and there was like the they put the Eucharist like right next to it in there. I don’t know if you call it the Tabernacle or what do you call it? Yeah, you kind of went down there. Tabernacle on the altar of repose. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And it’s just really would you believe I’ve been Catholic my entire life and it took until last year for me to notice that that is Jesus leaving the upper room and going to the Garden of Cosemity with his disciples. Mm hmm. It’s like that’s so obvious, but I just I just missed it for decades. Yeah, that’s really cool. I didn’t I didn’t know that either. Yeah, well, there was something your first Marty Thursday like, you know, you could be forgiven for not noticing these things. I guess I should be forgiven too. I shouldn’t be so hard on myself, but yeah. It’s something really beautiful, too, because I’ve spent a lot of time praying at that shrine. And I’ve thought a lot about St. Joseph and actually like that the way that the the different patterns of the different Joseph’s and Scripture kind of all coalesce. So there was something very meaningful to kind of see because it was like the tabernacle was like on one side here and then like the shrine was kind of behind it. So it was almost like he was watching over it. And there was something kind of really beautiful about that that I was thinking about. Yeah. Yeah. So it was it was it was interesting to kind of, you know, like in Protestant, you don’t like get up and walk around and things. Mm hmm. Yeah. Let’s jibber jabber more processions. That’s what I’m all about. So when I was in seminary, we would process around the cathedral and then go through a door, through the sacristy, into the Adoration Chapel. And I never liked that. So this year, because I was in charge, we went around the block to the Adoration Chapel, the outside, leaving the main space. And a lot of people had nice things to say about doing it that way. Nice things to say about doing it that way. So weather permitting, we will continue doing that. But the weather here is always chaotic that time of year. So yeah, same for us. Yeah. But hopefully, hopefully we’ll be able to go outside more years than not. But, you know, if there’s two feet of snow on the ground, just ain’t going to happen. Yeah. I do wish that my parish here actually moved the holding chapel out of the main church. Which is an option, but it’s, yeah, yeah. Because it would be possible. We have a huge parish hall that’s connected to the church. But we just don’t do that. For some reason, we just set it up like 10 feet to the side of the normal tabernacle in front of St. Joseph. And it makes me sad because when I was growing up, our priest was a huge stickler on that. On like, no matter how inconvenient it is and how awkwardly narrow our hallway is, the Holy Thursday altar or tabernacle should be somewhere else. And I liked that. Yeah, no. And, you know, we’ve got some very small country parishes in North Dakota where it would be like they just have the church, that’s it. And so that’s what that’s kind of set up for. But yeah, hey, well, we have a genuine European here. Yes, I was like, holy cow, you guys are streaming in my time and you haven’t invited me. It’s like, oh, I thought you knew already, Manuel. Well, I had I had the pop up, but it was on my phone. So I had to watch my phone first. Oh, Jacob’s throwing some shade here. He says you’re not genuine. Wait, what? Yeah, apparently you’re not genuine. I don’t know. He’s going to do an expose and his channel is here. I’m sure. We’ll figure out how you’re not actually living in Europe. Oh, but living in Europe, what’s with the light? How do they go? Because it’s the back. I’ll just be dark. So don’t let me interrupt because I have no clue what’s going on apart from that. I’m being defamed immediately. Yeah, immediately defamed. Yeah. So interesting. The contrast and how these are done in different parishes. Now, on Good Friday, the cross that you venerated, did it have the body of Jesus on it or not? This is just market research for me. Yes. Ours did not at all. Yeah, it was just like a plain, just pretty much a plain cross. Because I was talking to one of the older priests there who’s new at the cathedral this year. And he’s like, you know, when I was going into seminary, they were huge. You know, he was in seminary back in the 90s and he was like, there was this huge emphasis on, no, it has to be a plain cross. It can’t have the corpus on it. And I just don’t think that was actually correct. I think the people who were teaching were just making things up. So not that it’s wrong to just have a plain corpus, but it’s, it’s you can’t say people are wrong to have the body of Jesus on it. What I will say is that when you don’t have the body of Jesus on it, the veneration goes a lot faster. Because everybody wants to kiss the feet. And they’re really far down and it gets really awkward. And then you’ve got like the 90 year old man with the cane going down there. And you’re like, oh, my, my brother in Christ, please come up from that position. Don’t get stuck. Every year we get through the first half of the Good Friday Mass to the like the end of the solemn prayers. And I’m like, wow, it’s only been 45 minutes. Why do I think this service is so long every year? Because it’s an extra 45 minutes for the veneration of the cross. And you’re standing there for like almost a full hour, just for that by itself. And it’s like, that’s why this is a two hour mass. Got it. Yeah, the Roman Missal gives you like two pages of chants that you could do without the music. It’s just the text chants that you can do at that point. And it’s not enough at our cathedral. So the music director has to add some hymns in there and some choir pieces as well. So yeah. You poor cat likes complaining about it too. Listen, Manuel. The Roman Rite is known for its brevity, relatively speaking. As one of my undergrad friends said, we’re Catholic. If the sermon is more than 20 minutes, we riot. You riot? OK, like that’s not Catholic. Catholics rioting? It’s happened. It’s happened. There’s precedent for it. Wow. That’s condoned and approved? No, no, no, no. It just happens. It just happens. Especially at college churches. I mean, at a Catholic mass, the preaching is not the main attraction. I’m kind of like a warm up act for Jesus showing up. I’m kind of the opening act when I’m preaching. So I don’t think I preached more than 10 minutes yesterday because it’s just like everybody here is tired. Yeah. I’m just going to talk about how great the resurrection is and then we’re going to move on, especially because it was a high mass with incense. So. It’s long enough already. Long enough already. It’s over an hour, over an hour, Matt. Well, to do a high mass with incense, that’s a lot. Yeah, you guys. Yeah, my friend who goes to Latin. Not on the hardcore side. I guess not Eric. He’s on the hardcore side. He’s doing it behind the screens. No, I will confess to not being on the hardcore side. I am a regular old decently reverent Nova Zordo enjoyer. I enjoy a lot of mass every now and then, but I’m not sure I would ever go. Like all the time. Is that because you’re just not as into it or you’re worried about the folks you’d be with there? I mean, I’ll be honest and say a little bit of both, although I haven’t. Thank God I haven’t had any personal experience with. Difficult Latin mass people. And my best friend is very much a Latin mass enjoyer and also a lovely person. But I personally have an issue with the Latin mass where it feels too much like my day job. I suppose. I suppose you’re you’re getting a master’s degree in classics. And so I spend all the time or if I’m not careful, I spend all the time criticizing the translation in the missile rather than like actually participating in the mass. Oh, okay. So you’re not just translating things on the fly in their head. Are you also criticizing the priest’s pronunciation? Oh, I don’t know. Oh, I mean, I would, but I haven’t had to. Oh, OK. Oh, so like I had stuff like that. And like part of part of like the big thing of me going to church is getting rid of that part of me. Like it’s like I can criticize anything. Like I think what Eric knows what I’m talking about. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You’re right. Like it’s it’s it’s it’s my gift. Like I can just shoot everything down. But it’s like that’s the opposite of what you’re supposed to do. Like, yeah, like there’s there’s this idea flying around about the diabolos, right, which is the breaking into right. Divider. Yeah. And and and and and the symbol is that which unites. And there’s a participation in the symbols, which is what what the communion is, right? Like taking the Eucharist. So there’s a there’s a way of being that is required to properly participate in that. And that’s the thing that I had to cultivate. And when when you get to a certain place, you. You start realizing the way that you are obstructing. Your participation in being or your union with God. Yeah, like I think going to Mass is practice to see that. Yeah, I got a lot of that when I was in seminary because I too could be very critical. I might not be. Why not your level, but in a certain range of things and liturgy being one of them, I immediately and kind of like that. And, you know, just having that kind of worn down because, you know, I knew that. So sometimes we would have to go. We would do like a seminary visit to a local parish on a Sunday. We were just all like this whole section is just going to have seminarians there. And, you know, it wasn’t the pristine execution of the Roman rite that we were doing at the seminary. And it’s just like, OK, I just have to relax and realize I’m probably going to be in a parish like this at some point. And, you know, like I need to be of service to that parish where it’s at rather than. I think somebody somebody on Mark’s server was talking about this recently. Tyranny comes about at least one of the ways that tyranny could come about is the leader or the authority has an image of perfection in their head. And when the body of the people don’t live up to it because it’s an ideal that can’t actually be reached, they punish the body for not living up to the ideal, even if they are actually striving after it. So that is that is just an idea that’s floating around my head. Well, there’s there’s two things, right? Like I heard of this idea that the Christian hope is objective. Like I don’t like the word, but I like the idea. Right. So it’s like because it’s true. It’s actually a valid reference instead of. A potential like there’s there’s a reliability in the potential or something. Right. So you’re talking about Christian hope that’s like hoping in the Lord Jesus, basically. Well, in the kingdom, right, I guess. Yeah, like like like it depends on on how you. Yeah, like it’s the salvation that liberates you. Right. But like it’s it’s different than, oh, listen to this classical music CD because you’re going to like it. Right. Because there’s hope there. Right. But it’s it’s like false hope because it’s like what what makes you say that you can connect to that. Right. Like there’s a subjectivity there that that isn’t in the Christian story. Right. There’s a truth component there that that that is well, yeah. Object. Like I don’t like the word objective, but true. Right. Yeah. In a sense, it doesn’t matter. Your subjective dispositions to it. It’s still out there. Right. So and I think part of it comes to the for the fact that, you know, Christ really was born of the Virgin Mary, really did go around preaching the kingdom and healing people, really was crucified, really did rise from the dead and ascended to heaven. It is really coming back. It’s a part of that is the hope has actually been embodied in the world and still is embodied in the world through the church, her sacraments and her life and the spirit there. So it’s not just like an image that people have in their heads, but it’s something that’s really happening out there in the world that Christ is really accomplishing. There’s fruit. Yeah. And it’s not really up to us to make these things happen. But I mean, we have our cooperation, but Jesus is the primary mover of things. But I’m going to do a mark here. Well, he’s not here, so somebody has to. Exactly. Like I object to the uses of language because within a Christian understanding, I guess this is a Christian channel, but like there’s a within that Christian understanding, like there’s still a subjectivity. Right. So when you say those words, like they have the whole different meaning for different people. Right. Like I get really to like a place where you like, I don’t feel like people are receiving the thing that you’re saying. Like they’re receiving their own narrative and their own understanding of these things. And then just like with the empathy, if we just all had empathy, then we’d have peace. Right. You end up in this construction that logically is sound, but the, well, the haven that it maps onto is that map is broken or tilted or shifted. That makes sense. It does it, but I’ll think about it. Okay. Manuel, are you kind of just saying that like, like I get into this with my parents, they’re still well, they’re Protestant and I’ve recently converted to Catholicism, but like there’s a lot of words that we use in, in that of Christian culture that like you said, when I say them, I mean something when you say them, you mean something else, but we’re both talking about the same overarching subject, but our relationship to that subject is different. And I can see that, but they can’t seem, they don’t, they don’t seem to see it that way. Like they’ll use words like spirit and angel. And I’m like, well, what do you, what do you mean by that? Like, what are you talking about? And for them, I often feel like they just literally have like a, they believe like, yeah, like, well, like in their head, I almost want like, cause that came from a very fundamentalist background. We didn’t realize it at the time that it was called that, but later on, you know, you could kind of see that like, okay, we were probably taking a few things too literally. Like I spent a decent amount of time pondering over my, in my head, like how the world could have been created in, in seven literal days. Like, I mean, I went over and over that in my head and then, you know, kind of viewing spirits and angels and demons is like, yeah, it must be like a subsect of like an animal or something like that. Like, just like trying to view things so literally. And I was so disconnected from what is meant by those terms in that. But I mean, is that kind of what you mean as far as like that there’s this? It’s also different. So, so when I got 20, right, and this is not Christian even, right. So like I grew up second. I like, I had all these Dutch words, because I speak Dutch. I’m like, I’m hearing other people use these words and I’m like, I know how to use this word. I know where it fits, where it doesn’t fit. I have no clue what it means. Right. So I’m listening to the word. I, I can use it to relate to reality. I’m like, that’s functional, right. But it’s not true. Right. Like it’s, it’s not true in the sense that it allows me to connect. Right. So there’s a, there’s a dissociation. There’s, there’s a not grasping of the deeper truth or, or realization of that which you are participating in. Right. And so because, because you’re using a map that’s correct, right. Because like everybody uses these words, that doesn’t mean that you can use the map. Right. And then when the wind blows, you get a flood because like you didn’t build on solid ground. Like that’s basically what I’m talking about. Now, is it, is it possible to, I mean, what, what, what I think the way we learn language and the way that we grow in our understanding is that we begin to use words before we really know what they mean. And then it’s like, if you’re not going to put the work in of we’ll say meditation and contemplation to try and actually put the, um, encounter the reality and then say, oh, yeah, that’s what those words actually connect to. Cause it’s, it’s quite theology is spiritually dangerous to do because you could just end up being a, a, a wordsmith, putting the words in the right order and playing with the words without ever, um, connecting to, uh, the, the, the realities that the words are supposed to signify. And, um, which is why the church repeatedly insists that the sacred scripture is the soul of theology. Um, and you need to, you need to come back to that over and over again. Otherwise the body of your language is going to become lifeless. Actually, I think the soul of theology is what for Vickie is pointing out with cultural cognitive grammar. Right. So it’s, it’s that which we use to grasp, right? So, so like, I, I see the soul as that, which interprets heaven or something or receives it. Like, it’s an antenna. It’s, it’s, that would be part of it. Well, we can have an argument about that sometime, but, but like, like that’s, and, and, and so yeah, if, if you don’t cultivate that, like, like you’re right, but then like you have to realize that that’s even an option. Right. Like, cause like, no, nobody’s telling you that in modern society. And then like, even if you know it’s an option, like, like, how do you do that? And so I would argue that the neck, the natural consequence of any education, education is not the right word, but teaching is going to be that you’re going to, going to become a wordsmith. Right. And only if you get indoctrinated, right. You get introduced, the disciples, then you can get to the actual truth. I would agree with that. Yeah. And, you know, it kind of reminds me of how catechesis would be done in the, in the very early centuries of the church. It would be, you would only hear about the old Testament and Jesus for, for most of your, your prep preparatory time, right. Like getting the Christian story, you know, embedded into you, getting it so that you understand the narrative arc of salvation, we could put it that way. And then you would be practicing prayer and fasting, prayer, especially with the Psalms, fasting and being educated on, you know, as a Christian, you’ll be expected to live this way and that way. And, and you wouldn’t stay for the entirety of the Sunday liturgy. You would stay for the part where they’re doing the liturgy of the word. That’s what we would call it nowadays. So the reading of the scriptures and the sermon and the prayer. And then before they got to the Eucharist, all of the catechumens would be dismissed. And then only those who were fully initiated Christians would be allowed to stay for, to even witness the Eucharist, but much less receive it. And then it’s like, once you had been primed, you know, for, for two or three years with the Christian story, without any practice or explanation, you would be thrown into the initiation rituals of baptism and confirmation and receiving the Holy Eucharist. And I think that might, that might have been a way to avoid what you’re, what you’re pointing at, Manuel, of this Christian language and theology being disconnected from the practice, because they’ve, they forced you to only have the person of Christ and the fathers, but the patriarchs of the Old Testament, to be disconnected from the practice. To, to be the ones that you were engaging with before you would get all the way in. Do you think, do you think it’s something like, your, your vocabulary or your language can exceed your capacity for knowing? Like I think of, I think of a child who, like there’s things we don’t tell children, you know, about the world, you know, a lot of things, you know, right? Like we talk about the birds and the bees and it’s like, you know, when mommy and daddy love each other and we don’t go beyond that, right? Because their, their capacity for knowing that sort of thing is very small. But we could think of it in like a sense of trauma. If you were to give them the vocabulary for the thing that they, you know, shouldn’t know, can’t know, or that it wouldn’t be good for them to know, and that exceeds that capacity, then you come to a really dangerous place, you know, and you see that with children. And I think you can see that with catechumens as well. You could see that with we’re all kind of engaging in that in the modern world, because we’re always trying to know more and be enlightened more. But we’re kind of creating a disconnect between that capacity and between our vocabulary. And that creates a really dangerous thing where we think we know, but really we just have words. And then there’s this, that kind of word smithing and like the negative sense, you know, like there’s a reason why all the ancient or a lot of ancient cultures, like words and magic are deeply associated, right? Because there’s a lot of power in our words and in our language. And if you, if you have a disconnect, intentionally, you know, that could be something like witchcraft, where you’re intentionally using your words to subvert and kind of coerce and use power and these sorts of things. So I think those are all kind of tied up in what we’re talking about. And it’s something that I, you know, like I am trying to not do as I’m coming into, you know, a deeper faith into the Catholic church, like I’m trying not to let my vocabulary exceed my knowing. And I think that’s a lot of what, or at least some of what Christ is talking about when he says like, be as a child, like have the humility to say, I shouldn’t just, you know, read all these things all the time. I should just go to church and go to mass and experience it. Because then I think, you know, like I’m thinking about like my experience in venerating the cross. And it’s like, I know that that’s a subjective experience in one sense, because it was me and it was, you know, this wooden cross, but also like, I also think that a subjective experience can point towards a more objective experience. I think it can point to something more real. And I don’t think it’s like it’s a fake thing pointing towards a real thing. I think it’s a real thing pointing towards a more real thing. I think that’s at least the way that I’ve been able to understand it. So like, like there’s one problem I have with what you’re saying is like, I think we learn words because we see other people use them, right? So we get a pattern that other people have, and we can have the feelings, but not recognize that the pattern is mapping onto the feelings, right? So we can have this capacity to understand the word and still not understand it, because we do not lay the connection. And so then there’s you speaking, right? So now you are self-expressing and like you’re using your feelings in some sense to navigate that expression, right? And so like now you’re you’re mapping in a different way, right? So there’s multiple of these processes happening at the same time. And like you can bias or privilege one over the other, right? Or you cannot recognize, like, for example, the symbolic nature of language, and you can just get stuck in this propositional understanding, right? And we can map that to things like autism, right? Or you can get too much in the symbolic way, right? And then you get into a more floaty manic, whatever, right? You get disconnected from the structure, from the reality, right? And then this is something that happens over time, right? So you develop ways to deal with that, and you atrophy even the capacity to have different relationships. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it seems like this is going to be a perennial thing that we’re dealing with. Like this isn’t like, oh, we just need to do X, and then people will think and speak better, and then everything will be great again. Because, you know, I remember talking to older Catholics when I was in seminary, guys, people who grown up in the 50s and the 60s. And the way they talked about their formation was, just do it, because this is what we do, with zero attempts to explain anything. And then they were also learning the Baltimore Catechism, which is written in a question and answer format. And it would be expected that the little second graders and third graders would memorize the answers to these questions and be able to repeat them before they were able to receive the first communion or whatever. And so you had on the one hand, you know, we’re just going to do this procession. This is how you do mass. This is how you do confession. You just pray the rosary. On the other hand, all of this explanation coming from their Catechism classes, and the two things were not connecting. And so it’s possible for that to be a problem there. Yeah. I had my daughter, we went to the Good Friday service, and you were talking a little bit about integration of the cross. And I was trying to explain, I just became Catholic, so I’m trying to slowly walk. I’m divorced, so I only have her for some Sundays and not other Sundays. But we were looking down at the cross, and Ed, you were just talking about children and how they’ll do, sometimes they’ll be like, well, this is just what we do, and things like that, and just expecting to accept it. So she was like, I remember she was looking at people, some were kissing the feet, some were kissing the cross. And she was like, I don’t think I want to kiss his feet. Like for her, it was, you know, it was like, I don’t know, you could just see a total disconnect. And I was like, I know this seems strange. That’s because it’s very old. And I said, like, this is an old tradition. And so she just, like, you could tell. But as I’m coming into Catholicism, and I have to kind of remind myself of that same thing, like, there was a lot of things that felt very weird. It didn’t feel like, oh, this just feels so good. It was very strange to even, you know, to have a priest place, you know, the host in my mouth, like that felt weird. Like it didn’t, or being on your knees, like that felt weird. Like, you know, it’s just not anything I ever did before. So like, there is a sense of discomfort orientating. And I think that, I think in a lot of ways, that’s, for me, that’s been good. And that, like, that, you know, we don’t know, like, as a child, you often feel awkward. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, and yeah, we maybe we should just, we should think about some of these things we’re doing. But like, I don’t know, like, I keep reminding myself, like, no, this is, this is, this is the ancient tradition. This is, you know, and that’s why it feels weird. But like, do you think we reach a point where like a lot, like you were saying a lot of these words and things like we know them, but we don’t, you know, they don’t necessarily interact with the reality or whatever that, that they, that can we get so far removed from ancient Christians that we don’t really understand? Kind of like, I think that’s the, that’s the thing that I keep on leaning on why these traditions are there and why they’re, they’re kind of strange in that is because we’re, we’re still trying to, we’re, we’re trying to make sure we’re, we’re, we’re participating in the same reality that ancient Christians did. And that, like, there’s a connection to a reality that is, that is harder to understand as time goes on, because we’re further, I mean, I mean, these things are old. Like, I like, I’m, I’m Native American, and I have like, I’m part of a tribe that’s the oldest in the continental United States. And I look at some of the practices they have, and that like, like, there’s a blessing that Native Americans and the Hopi tribe do where they spit on a young woman. And it has to, the aunties will do it. It’s like a blessing thing. But then I was also watching priests go around with the holy water this, during Easter and that was, I was kind of like, I was like, yeah, it’s like old traditions are weird. They don’t make sense to us. But like, bother for, for, for me, like, is it better to try to understand these things or simply to participate? And then like he, like Elijah was saying, just to experience. Yeah, I think, I think the experience has to come first. And kind of the faith and the trust has to come first. And, you know, I was kind of kicking myself for not noticing a detail about the symbolism of the Holy Thursday earlier in the stream. But it’s like, well, when I was ready to understand that, I had done this year after year. And then like the understanding came in, oh, that’s why we do this. That makes so much sense. And that came when I was 30. And, you know, maybe having that show up when I’m 30 is soon enough. And I didn’t need the understanding earlier, because what I mean, we, we very regularly went to all of the Tridwell masses when I was a kid. So, you know, I got to experience these things over and over again, first as just a little participant, and then later on as a server. And then now as, as a priest and an MC in charge for making these things happen. So, so yeah, I think, I think the, the ritual and the experience of it has to become primary, but we need to set people up so that they can come to a more mature understanding year after year when they participate in these things. Which is, yeah. I think too, some of it, it is a both and in some sense. And I think of like, I think of Christ in the parables, when he, he gives the parables, like there is some sense that I think deep down we can understand or see in them. And then he does kind of reveal later a different, you know, aspect to them or a more revealing, or he kind of says more about them, but he kind of intentionally hides things. And that’s, that’s definitely a pattern all throughout scripture. And I think that’s true of our lives. I think kind of what you were saying, Josh, about like, saying like, these are very ancient, you know, these are 2000 year old traditions, a lot of them, you know, it’s hard for us to understand. I think sometimes that can be true, but I also think of like, we kind of have a bias against age and the elderly. And, and the reality is with age usually actually comes clarity that you can actually look back and see, actually have more understanding. So I do think that there, there can be like the problem of 2000 year old, you know, I think that’s more of maybe a translation problem. Like I think of, in Dune, there’s, there’s a really great scene in Dune where one of the Fremen comes in. I don’t know if you guys have seen Dune or read the book, but he comes in and he spits on the table, like in front of the Duke and every is like so offended. And of course, when the Fremen like water is like their most precious thing, cause they’re, you know, they live in the desert and for us being, you know, spit at is an insult, but for him, it was like, I’m going to give you the most precious thing that I have. And so I think sometimes the ancient faith and the ancient traditions, it’s less a problem of age and more just a problem of translation, because I do think there is an element to age to something older where we can actually look back and see like the bigger picture and have more clarity. And I think that’s something just in our personal lives. Yeah, I’m 26, like I’m not that old, but I do, I do understand some of the patterns and some of the reason why things happened. And, you know, I, I, I am starting to have a little bit of a better picture of like what the store in my life looks like. And I’m sure at 60, I will, you know, much more so. And I think the same thing is true of Christianity. And I think that’s why there are councils and why there are, you know, further developments. It’s not because the seed, it’s not because it’s different. It’s like, there’s a really great Tolkien quote where he says, it makes sense to me that the church might look a little different now. And, you know, when he’s writing in like the 1950s, it’s because a seed and a tree don’t look the same, but they are the same. They are the same thing. It’s just, it grew and it’s, it’s developed and now it has branches and these things. So I find that to be a really helpful metaphor to kind of understand these things. Well, and I think the seed in the tree is kind of like, there’s, there’s so, there’s all this potential inside of a seed, but it’s unrealized until the sun gets ahold of it and directs it towards the light, you know, that’ll be phototropism. And then you have like geotropism, which is where it’s going to be orientated at, you know, and so it might be shorter because it’s at a higher elevation. It might be taller because it’s at a lower elevation, might be fuller because of, you know, humidity levels and things like this, but there’s so much potential and you never know where that key, that seed is going to be, where it’s going to, the seed comes forth when the environment is favorable for that. And so that could be under a rock for a juniper seed, whereas it might be along a path through the belly of a, of a bird for a Russian olive seed, you know, skin off of it. And then it can actually, you know, come forth and then like, yeah. So like, I think it’s the ponderosa. No, it’s not the ponderosa. There’s a certain type of pine that I think it might, no, it might be, anyway, sorry, it’s that seed that doesn’t even come forth until it’s gone through a fire. Like it won’t, it won’t even, it’s been, it has been in fire territory for so long that it’s just adapted to, you know, like, that’s just insane to me that, you know, and so there’s all this potential and all these places where the seeds will be cast and that, and like, you know, when the, whatever environment that is favorable for that. And it might not, I’m sure there’s like a lot of trees that don’t want to be in fire territory, but that’s what they’re made for, you know, and that, and, and, but no, it just like, like as far as the ancient traditions and that, that’s what I was trying to get across with my daughter. And I thought it was very interesting. She didn’t want to kiss his feet. And she wanted to kiss the cross because that seemed a little less, maybe humiliating for her or something like that. But, and then her little child might, she’s like 10 years old and that, and, but I thought it was interesting that she didn’t realize that that was a real piece of wood. Like it wasn’t, it wasn’t, she’s like, I thought it was plastic or possibly like polished or something. It was, she kissed it. It was very rough against her lips. It was like, she actually kind of thought to herself, well, if you kiss his feet, it’s a bit smooth, you know, but, you know, there’s just all these little things. And so even for her that she didn’t understand what she was participating in, she felt awkward in the line. She, you know, but she humbled herself to the, you know, to the degree that she was willing. And, you know, she had a memorable experience because I don’t know, I remember little experiences like that when I was a kid. And I, I remember certain things that felt rough, like on your lips or something like that. So I’m pretty sure that that got in her head. And so next year it’ll be interesting to see what part of the cross she kisses. But it, I just, I don’t know, as we, as I move my family more into the church and that, and as we encounter things that we don’t know, kind of, you know, what to do with, like I, when I showed up in the church, this whole thing was, the Francis was going on and he just recently, you know, he put out his letter. And so there’s been a lot of murmurings inside the church and I didn’t know anything. I was like, I was like, okay, I kind of showed up at a time of contention here, but like in that, and I’m just thankful for my local priest. He’s very well educated. He has a, he has a PhD in philosophy and that, and he’s from Eastern India. His name is Father Susai, but he, he just, I don’t know, it just, I am definitely where I’m supposed to be. And I, and I get a sense of that, but at the same time, like a lot of this doesn’t make sense to me. I know that- That’s a good point. I want to interrupt because like, like the humiliation is like part of the purpose, right? Yep. Like you going on your knees has to be uncomfortable, right? Like these are features, not bugs. No, explaining that to a child is difficult in our day. You don’t have to explain that to a child. Like, cause the explanation is actually corrupting the experience because now you’ve made an expectation, right? And they’re going to look for what you told them in their experience instead of that they build upon their experience to the truth. I think that’s kind of, oh, go ahead. Sorry. Well, like, like, like this, this, this idea that, right, Mark goes around, right? That knowledge will get you to salvation is like, no, right? Like knowing, right, as in knowing, as in participation in the being, right? That’s going to get you to, right? And then the knowledge is a, a, a remembrance of that, right? Like, like you, you are B and like, I, I see, I see that you are subject to the remembrance, right? So you are being made part again of the being that you were part of in the, in the past, right? Like that’s the way that you should think of it. It’s something that you undergo. It’s not remembering. It’s not something you do. Like it comes upon. So I think you’re correct. The question is when somebody asks, why are we doing this? How to not explain it to them in a way that’s still caring. Well, I was going to get to that because Okay. That means I’m very brilliant and I’ve anticipated your Exactly. Your brilliance is matching my brilliance. And now we’re shining super bright. But so I had this idea when I was with Mark working on for Vicky stuff, right? Like we came onto a bunch of subjects and they were just too big for us. Like they were like, like, for example, relevance realization is one of these things is like, what, what is this? This is huge, right? But it’s also important. And like we labeled them dragons of the apocalypse, because when you go there, you end up in this space in your head where you completely lost, right? You’re, you’re, you’re being flawed. You’re, you’re being exposed to the flop, right? Like, like you’re disconnected from grounding. And that’s not a good place to go. Right? Like when, when you have that experience, like you’re, you’re at a place where you’re not ready. Right. That’s what the apocalypse is. Like the apocalypse is the imposition of that which, which you’re not ready for. And so what happened with some of these subjects is like, at a certain point, we’re just like, oh, that’s, that’s that wasn’t that a part of part of the apocalypse dragons. And we just like it, it got revealed to us through our, our exploration and our discovery, right? We mapped so much territory that we found the place where the puzzle piece fit. And so like, when, when you’re going through this Christian story, right? Like, and this is the purpose of mystery. So now I can connect that to father Eric, like mystery is the acceptance that there’s a truth, but that you cannot hold it. Right. And so if you, if you want to explain things to people, like you have to get them to accept the existence of mystery, right? And then like, it doesn’t matter whether the mystery is actually something that’s unintelligible or it’s unintelligible now, because it’s the same, because it’s unintelligible, right? And so like, you don’t, you don’t have to know whether it’s knowable or not, you just have to know that it’s, you’re not ready and you shouldn’t try. So is there always a mystery to scripture and a mystery to the church and its traditions that for a lot, for a lot of us, I guess, I mean, maybe for everybody that won’t ever be fully understood until, until we meet God, like, is that like, like, like, maybe even Donald, like, who cares? Like, you’ve got to have faith, like, like that’s for somebody who’s very inquisitive, like myself, that’s a very, that’s a hard thing to, to just say, like, oh, like, because I always hated that when, when in my upbringing, my dad would always just say, well, you know, I guess we’ll find out or, you know, because I would ask him about revelation, I would ask him about these things, you know, like I got, I came across preterism a while back and that had my attention pretty heavy because it seemed to explain so many things that like, I just would read and I was like, what is it? Cause I’ve read through revelation a couple of times and I just like it, your mind can go crazy with the amount of things that you can link. Like my, the way my mind works, it tends to link things together very, not easily, I guess, but it’s just how it works. It links things together and that, and so there’s so much in revelation that you can link things to and you can see things and there are, you know, or think you see things, I guess is a better way to say it, but, but yeah, it’s just that I accepting that certain things aren’t to be known or that. It’s, it’s so there’s kind of two ways that human beings come to understand things and the, the, the language that we get from Aquinas isn’t all that helpful, but it’s like argument versus insight, right? Argument, basically you’ve got a premise and you hack your way or a couple of premises and you hack your way to a conclusion. Now that’ll get you some things. You could do geometry very well that way. You might be able to do a law very well that way. So certain things, so it’s a useful, a useful tool. Relativity theory, right? Yeah, theory of relativity. Yeah, right. He starts off with, you know, speed of lights, the constant of the universe. What does that tell us? And then there’s insight and that doesn’t happen sequentially going from start to finish. That’s just something that kind of comes to you all at once. Revelation and Aquinas says that’s actually an angelic way of knowing things, that the angels don’t have to hack their way through things, but they’re just given the insight all together all at once. And it’s not, that’s like a epiphany, right? Yeah, epiphany, revelation, insight. The Latin word is intellectus, right? We just, it all, it all just sort of comes together for you. And it’s not something that we can make happen. It’s something that we have to receive rather than grasping at. It’s, yeah, which is a problem when you’re trying to write a paper. And once again, confirmed papers are evil. Or there are some things that we shouldn’t have papers written about. That’s probably a little more, a little more accurate. Yeah, that’s my problem. I’m trying to write articles all the time. It’s so hard to take the responsibility of what is the thing that I’m going to write down and that I want to communicate to people, right? Because we’ve been talking about this problem of words and people receiving words. What is it that I’m telling people? Because it’s definitely not what I’m trying to communicate, right? So it’s like, what am I actually communicating when I write something down? Yeah, yeah. So that might just be a habit that you have to break. Because if you’re pretty smart and you’re good at arguing, you’re going to, you’re going to over rely on that. And it can only get you to some places. Yeah. And like you’re, like we were talking about mystery earlier, you’ll find that you’re further away from understanding than when you first started. Like you’ll, you’ll, that’s, that’s been my experience anyway. It’s the harder I went after understanding and not submitting to a tradition. It’s like it, it just got worse. So like you get it, I guess it’s kind of like being stubborn against the compass or something like that. You’re like, no, I know it’s this way. You’re like arguing with a compass or argue with an instrument, you know, and it’s just like, no, that’s not, that’s not going to work. But, but now when my daughter’s got, they both, my daughter’s got baptized this Easter as well. And we, I was trying to explain, I don’t know, it’s been an interesting thing coming from a Protestant family, because some of them showed up or my parents showed up and my brother and that, and to see their, you know, like their granddaughter niece obviously gets, gets baptized. But it’s been interesting trying to explain to them my reasoning on why we’re going through so much, like so much hassle to, to baptize somebody or whatever, because there’s a, you know, there was classes and there was, you know, there was just a lot of arranging and thinking it was still a mess. Oh my gosh. We tried, we tried to be organized and everything like that, but we got up there, there was like nine people to be baptized and like they were all kids and my, my nephew that I was trying to baptize, he was freaking out and not happy. Yeah. It was all over the place. And then like for somehow, like somehow nobody remembered or nobody instructed us that like part of our thing as God-parents is that we’re going to be picking names for the, for the new baptize and that, and then like, so there were several of us trying to come up with names on the spot. Yeah. No, like, luckily I had Christopher and some people got Michael. Yeah, there was, there was all sorts of them, but I don’t know, just as crazy and chaotic and awkward as it was, you know, and stuff like that. Like I, it might, my, the, or yeah, the mother of my child, she had a coughing fit midway through. And so she actually had to leave and come back in. And so people in the, you know, are watching us and everything. It was, you know, just ridiculous, it just added to the memory of it, you know, and that, and I, a lot of times for myself, remember as you, how he says that like Orthodoxy is messy. Like it’s just, it’s all over the place, you know, like he was just saying, like, you know, it can’t count. I’m sure you’ve experienced this father where you’re trying to do something very, you know, yeah. And you got like a kid that’s like coming up and tugging on you or something like that. So, so Josh, I want to give you an analogy that you might resonate with. So what you’re doing when you’re trying to understand things is, it’s like you’re pruning, right? You’re trying to, to fit things into a shape. And then you have grafting, right? Where you’re, you’re, you’re joining something foreign to something that’s existing. And, and then it has to bind together and hold, right? And that’s, that’s a separate way of, of relating, right? You can’t like they’re opposite directions. So if you’re in, in the one direction, you, you’re basically blocking yourself from making a bigger hole. Right. And so when you’re partaking, right, you are a part of, right, you become a part of, and in order to become a part of, you cannot cut things away or, or dissect them or like, that’s not an option. And if you, if you’re in that modality, you are blocking yourself off, right? You’re, you’re unreceptive to that, which you should receive. And, and in fact, you are in rebellion at that point. Yeah. No, I, I need to, a lot of times I’ve relied on my understanding of tree work and stuff like that to actually grasp some of these concepts and things like that. It’s actually been, yeah, there, I don’t know, at some point I want to write a, my understanding of kind of like coming into the church and coming into and being partaking in a, in a body and things like that as being like a nutrient in the ground and how you get sucked up into the tree and eventually become part of the tree. And that, like, you know, just because there’s so many insights there and that, but no, and, and yeah, my, my understanding, it’s been interesting trying to explain this to my daughter, because that’s, that’s where it really, like you realize how little you actually understand some of the words that you’re using, like you were saying earlier, like we use words, but we’re like, do I actually know this concept? Like, is it, do I have a map of it in my head? You know, and things like that. But yeah, getting blocked from understanding is definitely something I’ve struggled with because of my curiosity and trying to, trying to make my own understanding of it. Hey, I got to take off, got some family to tend to, but I love you guys. Have a good, have a good rest of the day. You too. Take care, Josh. See you. Yeah. Yeah. I’m thinking about, well, at least in my diocese, how we do catechesis for children and how it’s, it’s probably making things worse and not better. And I have these dreams about, you know what, before we’ll say sixth or seventh grade, you get nothing but Bible stories. You should look up two things. One of them is catechesis of the good shepherd. And one of them is Charlotte Mason’s educational philosophy. The problem is, is right now that’s not my job. So yeah, it’s, there may come a time, but it’s, yeah, it’s very, the way we’ve been doing catechesis, I think, I think for a while, now it’s just been kind of, kind of agenocicy. If, if Mark were here, he would, he would, he would, you know, it’s just about getting knowledge into people’s heads. And then we’re sitting there wondering why it’s not working. But last year, we did a, a first communion retreat for the little kids getting their first communion. And I think that’s, that’s a good thing. And so we had, you know, a bunch of costumes for the kids to put on. They’re old enough, so they had the scripts in front of them and they were reading out the scripts and the parents were all there. And, and so they did. And then we passed out Nilla wafers and cups of grape juice. It was, it was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, um, it was, it was, uh, I was glad I was the one who was doing it because I’m loud and I can order people to do things and they’ll just organize and, uh, and, uh, and make things happen. So I had like, the parents are like, okay, you need to get all these, these, these cups filled up with a juice. So we did this whole reenactment of the last supper. And in like the last minute, I’m like, okay, kids, every time we celebrate mass, this happens. And I felt like that was the single most effective piece of catechesis I ever did was just exemplifying the story to them and then saying, this is why we go to church because this happens. And then it was, it was done in a way where the kids were kind of actively, uh, participating in it. So I’m trying to build this wisdom community thing with Mark, which has been put in the freezer for a while, but anyway, the way I would solve this issue, right. For children is I would have a physical activity, probably first, right. That is basically having them acting out a pattern, right. And not, not a pattern in like, it’s, it’s more like, I don’t know, like, like someone throws the ball and you give it back or something, right. And then, and then like, there’s this, there’s two ways of giving, right. One is throwing and letting go. And the other one is, is actually handing over and making sure that the other person catches them. Right. And so both the times they need to be caught and then you can put the attention on that, right. In some way. And I’m just making an example, right. And then you would have a story where the same principle is being represented completely different. And then I would invite them, right, to bring up this, okay, like how is my experience the same as the story? Right. And I think doing that is highlighting that the story is not an abstract thing that, that is out there and, and that gets transmitted to you, but it’s actually something that’s real to you on, on a different level than the words of the story. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think that’s, that’s what we were shooting with, with this first communion retreat. And it kind of, kind of worked. I don’t know. I, I thought like I had the kids attention when I was, was going through that last bit right there. You know, I didn’t have like much trouble talking to them like that. So, yeah. Yes. So I’ve, I’ve been going through the passion from different perspectives, because I use different resources in my life. And, and there was a lot to do about the loneliness of Christ, right? So, so he, he, he starts to pray and the disciples, they, they can’t follow him. Right. So, so what it, what it means is, is like, he’s going a path that they can’t follow. Right. And, and, and then they abandoned him. And like, why do they abandon him? Because they have no understanding in what he’s actually doing. And therefore they lose belief, which you does the most extreme version is like, okay, I’m going to bail out. Right. I’m going to make sure that I’m, I’m cared for because I don’t believe that you’re going to do what you set out to do because I don’t see it succeeded. And so what happens after the death, right? Like all, all the breadcrumbs that Jesus left, they get put together. And now, like with the wisdom of age, right, gets re-understood, reinterpreted. And they’re like, oh, this is why we’re wrong. And like, all of these things had to happen for that understanding to be manifest, to be revealed. And so they, they couldn’t have had that understanding before, right? Like then, then it would have fallen on deaf ears, which, which actually literally did in some sense, right? And, and, and so like, that’s, that’s what you’re doing when you’re giving them this experience, like it falls on deaf ears, but it plants the seed that can grow into a understanding if it’s properly cared for. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so that’s why Mick Mosav says you just reinvented Vacation Bible School, which has a lot of that play. It’s, it’s for like fifth grade and under. So, you know, 10 or 11 year olds and under. And then the older kids get put in charge for, for running things. So it’s becomes, if it’s run well, it becomes handing on these traditions. But I remember doing it in like third grade and very memorably we were going through the Exodus story and they had like these dioramas set up with like fish. And then the, it was just, it’s a very vivid memories there and being presented with those stories before I was going to be, you know, understanding them. So, so yeah, yeah. Christians aren’t trying this sometimes, and that’s why the whole thing hasn’t completely collapsed. But I want things to be better still. Yeah. Yeah, this is getting me thinking about my own education and why it worked and how it worked. And I think like I had like a religion textbook, but I think it was mostly like just Bible stories for the first like three or four years. And then became more like, this is what the sacraments are, more explanation. But I guess I don’t remember super well. But like, like when I go to mass, like, do I remember what I did? Like, not really. And I, like, like, I, I think even like, and I might like offend a bunch of people, but even the capacity to remember means that you didn’t participate properly. Because if, if you’re registering the structure of what is being said, you’re not living it, right? You’re looking at it. And if you’re looking at it, are you with it or are you holding it away from you? Yeah. Holy mackerel. Yeah, I realized sometimes middle or high school that if I wanted to remember, things I had to like take a minute to remember it and then go back to participating. Well, but that’s, that’s like digesting, right? Because so, because what you need to do is you need to, well, depending on what you’re doing, right? Because like, I think when I’m at church, at least, right, like I’m just letting myself be inspired, literally, like that’s like, I’m just trying to receive the Holy Spirit. But if you’re at church, you’re not going to be able to do that. So at school, you’re not there for inspiration. You’re there for information. Right. I’m talking about like special events, like concerts, graduations, whatever. But you could, you could connect those as a spiritual experience, right? Because like what’s the concert? It’s like a coming together of a lot of things into this special moment, right? Which is also what the celebration is actually, right? And that is a special experience. Now, is that an experience that you want to store? Like, do you want to hold on to that? Or do you want to use it to access something else? To open a door? To become one level higher? Whatever that means. I mean, I think I know what you’re talking about. Because when I’m in the midst of a really meaningful liturgy, I’m just engaging in what’s going on. And I’m not like, and so it’s like, gosh, it, you know, you get to the other end of Holy Week, and it’s like, did it even happen? Right, right? Because your memory is just engaging what the memory doesn’t get recorded, you know, the same way with these. Because there’s nothing to record to, right? Because you have a new experience. Like, how are you recording something that doesn’t have a pre-existing thing? Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, it’s just real interesting. Just the memories I have, even of this last week, are like, yeah, it’s kind of fragmentary. And it doesn’t hit the same way that other memories hit. I guess I’ll just say that. I have no way of articulating what I’m experiencing. Well, sorry. Well, each year Holy Week, like, they blend together. And I think they’re supposed to. Well, I’m always in like a different church and organizing things differently. The first last year, I was the presider for the Easter vigil for the first time. That was pretty memorable being the one to do the baptisms, to do the confirmations, to preach the homilies, to bless the Easter fire and the Easter candle and all of that. That, that stuck with me. And this year, I was just a master of ceremonies. So it’s a little different on that level, where I’m just like, oh, this needs to happen. But I’m not the one doing things. I’m just pointing other people to do things. Do you think, I’m thinking of the, I don’t know the verse, but it’s something along the lines of Christ says something about what the Holy Spirit will bring all things to remembrance. And I’m wondering if it’s like you could, what we’re talking about is that you could remember things too soon. And it’s like you haven’t fully digested it yet. Whereas what you were talking about, Father Eric, even going back to where you were talking about, like the procession and like, oh, now we’re leaving and going to the garden. That is you, you had enacted that for your whole life, right? Yeah. You know, but then at 30, you’re like, oh, this is what’s going on. But because you’ve done it, you know, 30 times or whatever, it was a more powerful moment to you. Whereas like for me, when I did it, it was the first time I did it. And then, you know, when you said, it was like, oh, okay, you know, that’s kind of cool. But for you, you kind of have this different experience with it because you had been ruminating on it, digesting it, thinking about it for so long. Yeah. Yeah. So I think you need to take this idea of remembrance. And basically, this is why I was talking about objective hope, right? Like there is something, right? And you don’t have to define what it is, right? But there is something that you can partake in, right? And so when we’re talking about remembrance, that means that you are getting called into that. Right? So you like, at a certain point in the Bible, God says, God remembers Israel, right? So what does it mean for God to remember Israel? Well, Israel is separated and gets called back into participation with God. Yeah, right. Because we’ve got a decrepit notion of memory because of these wretched inventions called cameras and audio recordings, where we think the memory is the audio recording in our visualization of that. But remembrance, what you’re remembering is what happens and not just the images and sounds and smells and all of that. You’re remembering what happened and then you go into what happens when you remember it versus just audio visual playback. Well, even worse, right? Like what you’re remembering is the truth in what you experienced, right? Because how do you recall it? Well, you recall it because there’s something there which is recallable. Right? And so you are being taken into that. Well, that’s even like the etymological like remember, like take back into your body, sort of a thing. That’s no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it’s not you doing it. Like you need, you need to flip it around. Like it’s the memory taking you back into it. It’s not you accessing the memory. Because like you’re being drawn back into it. I mean, that’s meditation in these kind of things. You can’t actively put yourself in a place to, I mean, that’s what you do every time you come to mass. No, but like, like, this, this is the most important thing. Well, that’s wrong. Whatever. This is the most important thing about faith and all these things, right? It’s not you doing it. If you’re doing it, it’s by your will. It’s not by God’s will. So you have to be taken into God’s will in order to properly express his will. Like you can do things by your will that is in alignment with God’s will, but it’s different than acting out God’s will. Like they’re not the same thing. And yeah, yeah. And so it’s, it’s ultimately our ability to remember things and to remember the right things and to understand them all has to be understood as a grace of God, something that he’s giving to us and not simply the work of our own hands. Even like even things that seem very close to us, like our capacity to remember something meaningful is itself not underneath our control. And obviously, you know this because every time you’ve had something bothering your conscience, right? Something that you’re remembering, but instead of it being a connecting and meaningful moment, it’s a moment of disintegration and chaos and evil. You have to work kind of hard to get rid of that. You have to fill the space with noise in order to make sure that doesn’t come back to haunt you until you’re ready to repent. And like our job is not to do the recalling, right? Our job is to listen. Yeah. Right? And like if we’re not listening, we cannot hear. Right? And like if we cannot hear, we cannot follow. Well, dang, that’s something for us to contemplate on and maybe to remember later. But I think we’re going to call that a good stop and off point. Elijah, great to have you here. Manuel, great to have you here. Emma, good to see you again. Unfortunately, Manuel, we will be going back to our normal. Everybody in Europe is asleep time, 730 central daylight time on Sunday evenings. I’m certain that you’re going to get amazing protests in the comment section and you’re going to have to. Well, we’ll see about that. So thanks for participating and God bless you all. God bless. Happy.