Faith - Ahmad - Embodying the Logos. (J8_vj9JcrFM)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=J8_vj9JcrFM

Hello everybody, welcome on the live version of embodying the logos. I think that’s going to be more often the case, especially in this format. We have a return guest, Ahmed. Good enough. Good enough. Good enough. Yes, yes, yes. So we kind of talked about truth last time. That was something. I don’t think a lot of people got through that one. But today we’re doing faith. What is faith? How do we relate to it? Stuff like that, I think, at least depending on where the spirit takes us. So yeah, go ahead. Give us a definition of faith. Sure. Thank you, Manuel, for hosting me once more. And I’d like to say hello to everybody. Basically, I want to start with a bit of a background. Before we started the recording, I was very confused whether I wanted to talk about truth or talk about faith. So I changed my mind like a thousand times, I think, and I made Manuel switch his direction many times, and he had to shift certain things, which is very interesting because this is a point where faith started to appear for me in that point, because I wanted to discuss truth because there was this should voice in my head that, yeah, you didn’t give in and have justice last time. Stick to it. Be consistent. But to be honest, if I were being authentic with myself, the real subject that was sort of the lesson that was taking shape in the past two weeks in the vacation I took in the past two weeks was faith, pretty much. And I think if I wanted to be more honest with myself, I would talk about faith right now. And it took faith to make that decision. It took. So I will go on to the definition of faith right now. Basically, I think faith is your capacity to trust that if you let go, you will be caught in a positive sense so that if you listen, if you open up and you listen to what is there and you let go of what you already know, you will not lose control. On the contrary, you will find that you are being driven by things that are beyond you and above you, and you have just begun to track them as you let go. And when you do this process, the process of letting go, the process of actually initiating this letting go is extremely difficult. And once you actually manage to do that, you sort of remember what it’s like to build maps in your head to actually come to moments of revelation like we discussed last time by dropping the propositional, dropping what you already know and just letting, just setting an intention and saying, I’m going to do this now and just letting your thoughts guide you, letting your intuition guide you. And even if it took you to weird corners, to weird places, which you never expected, that eventually it will take you to where you’re heading. And it’s not that you’re heading towards a certain proposition, but you’re heading towards that, that embodiment, that place without propositions where you know the truth intuitively, where you know things intuitively, that you’re heading towards being, let’s say. Like you know, or you get to know. Know where you get to know, where you get to know, because it’s actually where you don’t know. It’s actually the… actually that’s a better way of putting it. So faith is the curve. No, that’s two virtues at once. Faith is your capacity to not know so you can get to know. The bravery. It is participation in not knowing. Participation in not knowing, not in closing your eyes and saying, I don’t know, but rather in opening your eyes to know how much you don’t know. Mm hmm. OK. So, yeah, maybe go into why you picked the subject a little bit. OK, OK, you want me to elaborate on that. So. OK, for the past year. I got really fixated and obsessed with something. So I like writing and I like music. And I’ve been told by many that I can be very creative sometimes, which I am surprised sometimes to find out. But the thing is, when I’m told that I’m creative, that’s when I can’t be creative anymore, because then I start my ego starts working. It’s like, oh, no, we need to repeat this. How do we get this done again? And then you start overthinking things. But. I noticed the past year that the more I practiced meditation, the more I practiced mindfulness and just being present in the moment, the more I could enter into that creative state where I’m not trying to impose anything on the work, but I’m just playing in the present moment. And the thoughts are just coming to me. The ideas are just coming to me. It’s almost as if. I am dialoguing with the ideas. I just ask a question and the ideas come to me. And. Like I have a manual now for this, how to get back to that state. And I really. The whole year, the whole lesson I learned was I was simply trying too hard to control this process. I just had an idea, a picture in mind of what I wanted to produce. And whenever I wrote or whenever I played, when it comes to music, whenever I played music or whenever I wrote something in an article, I would be dissatisfied and it would not get anywhere. But eventually I learned I called it the stochastic principle. It’s my principle is that you just need to start to set the intention and you start. You will not get the results you want right away. You will go into places which you never thought you should go. But eventually, if you keep your intention to and if you stay with the task you decided to do, you will find that you will reach the place you were looking for. So it’s a solid example. Let’s say I’m trying to compose a piece and or to write write an article, for example, about a certain topic. My earlier approach would be OK, I wanted to be like this. I wanted to be concise. I wanted to be to have examples. I have a list of features in my head. And then I wouldn’t know where to start, like how am I going to get from here to here? And I just stay stuck there. I’d either just force myself to write the closest possible image to that, but I’d end up with something that’s frozen solid, nothing that’s actually has content. And with time, I eventually started to notice that I started hating writing and I started wanting to just distract myself from it. And the funny thing is that when I gave in to this desire to be distracted, that’s when the creative thoughts started to come up. As soon as I stopped intending, not the stop intending, as soon as I stopped trying to control it, things started happening for me. And so there was other problems, stuff like, yeah, but there’s a thousand other things you can do now other than writing. Why would you want to dive into this right now? So that was also a distraction. And with time, two lessons were learned. First of all, that you need to get rid of everything else if you’re going to do this one thing. You’re going to need to accept that this is going to be time consuming. You’re going to be paying for it with all the other stuff that you can do. That took time to accept. And the other thing is that you’re going to need to start and see where it takes you. It’s going to take time. It’s not going to be exactly like you want it to be. And you’re going to have to enjoy the process of digging, not the process of achieving. And when I shifted my mentality to that so that the creative process became more of an exploratory process, not a productive process, that’s when I started to realize that this is actually faith at the micro scale, because you’re sitting down, you’re setting an intention and you need to let stuff go. You need to sacrifice all the other activities. You need to sacrifice the way you think it should go and you just trust in the way it’s actually going and it will take you there. And that’s basically how I got to the idea that you just need to let go of how you expect things to go and just set the intention and move forward. And I realized that this at the micro scale can happen also at the macro scale of your life, so that as you’re going forward with life, as long as you’re consistent, as long as you’re true, things will deviate from the plan. Things will go not the way you expect them to, but you need to maintain this trust that things are on course. That’s what faith, I guess, originally meant. If I’m to trust John, John Verbeke, that or something like that. OK, so where do you want to go? Like you want to go on to the micro level or you want to move up to the more macro? I haven’t mastered the micro, so I’d rather stick to the micro for a second. Like, for example, even having this conversation. Like, I still haven’t mastered it, so even having this conversation, I find it so difficult to detach from the idea that Manuel is now waiting for an answer and just actually go deep within me to find what I want to say. So there’s OK, so let’s let’s let’s let’s relate to that impulse a little bit. Yeah, so. How do you even know whether I’m expecting something or not? Thank you for asking that. I don’t, but do you think I am? Yes, I think well. Let’s just put it this way, I’m worried. OK, I’m worried that first of all. If I do take the time to do that, that I’ll be stuck trying to fight off this thought. Like, I can’t argue with it. If I try to argue with it, it will just run away. But the anxiety stays. It’s like it’s it’s. Yeah, OK, you know what I mean? I get it. OK, but OK, so I guess I want you to empathize with me. Basically, frame the frame that you’re expecting me to be in. So what I expect you to be in right now? Well, when I asked the question, because I distinctly remember why I asked the question. So I imagine that you’re in a stance where. I imagine that you’re in a stance where. You’re actually in a stance where you want to just let this thing unfold as it is. And when you find something worth noting, you will say it like if it’s going in the wrong direction, you’re going to say it or if you need to ask a question, you’re going to ask that question. So why did I ask my question? Why did you ask your question? You saw a flaw in something you saw a flaw in thinking somewhere. Well. No, the original question was whether we should go to the macro level. OK, right, right. Why did you ask that? That was the question where you reacted upon with that I have an expectation. So I’m trying to figure out like what is my expectation when I ask that question. Like I obviously have the expectation that you’re going to respond to me, right? Else I wouldn’t ask the question, right? So that one is obvious. Right. Yeah. But beyond that, what is my expectation? Your expectation is that I’m going to give a concise answer that reflects what I’m thinking. That’s the expectation. No, like, like it’s not really like, yeah. Like what I was looking for is I was looking for a constraint, right? To guide the participation. Right. Right. And I wasn’t inviting you to to set that constraint. So you could have done anything and I would have been OK with it. You could have also set you pick. Right. Like I agree. I agree. But then the problem is what if and here’s here’s the tension that I was talking about. Like I’m kind of I’m not living up to what I defined right now. Then I worry that I will say something that is not true to what I’m trying to say. And I don’t have enough faith to trust that what’s coming out of me is going to somehow lead me to to what I’m trying to say. But it’s not you. It’s us. What’s not me? What’s us? The conversation, you mean? Yeah. There’s no you. There’s us. Well, we’re both participating in the conversation, right? Yeah. But you’re not led like because I’m I’m doing something right. So it’s not you. Can you elaborate on that? Well, I’m I’m interrupting you. Right. Or I’m I’m asking questions. So like it’s not your responsibility to get to the place that you haven’t even thought of in your mind. Right. I was big. I was. That’s a big one. That’s actually that realization has always been what that realization has always been what helps me talk whenever I delegate that responsibility to somebody else, like with a therapist or with with the person I’m talking to. That’s when everything comes together. And that’s literally what I was doing. Right. I was like I could go anyway and I could decide it or I could let you do it. All right. So I actually was embodying that at that time. Okay. Which is strange that you somehow that didn’t recognize that. I mean, yeah, I mean, I’m so caught. I see the thing is that’s the thing. I’m really usually caught up in that that. Okay. You need to do the best version of this that I don’t notice how much I’m projecting on the other person and how much like I tend to lose touch with this very, very often that your responsibilities are actually not as much as you think they are. And no matter how much I write this in in in steps or in procedures, what always works for me is delegating feedback to someone else. Even when I do it, imagine Lee in my head, like I noticed the best way for me to actually get focused and get something done is to imagine that I’m going about to receive feedback from somebody else. Because if I’m about to receive feedback, then I can trust that someone is going to guide me in the right direction. But you’re always going to get feedback. That’s there’s no situation where there is no feedback. That’s true. That’s true. And that’s the question. The question is whether you’re listening to the feedback instead of exactly. Exactly. The question is whether you’re open to listening to that feedback. Well, no, you could be open and still not do it right. Like that, like you need to attend to it. Like it’s yeah, like I can have all open as I want. But like if I’m deaf, like I’m not going to be able to hear. This is this is I’ve been I’ve been thinking about eyes to see, ears to hear. Eyes to see is really obvious to me. But the ears to hear, like when you’re hearing something, it’s not concrete. There’s a lot of sound and you have to filter the signal moment. And then especially if it’s words, you have to filter the words from whatever vibration is coming into your head. And then when you have the words, you need to construct the message. And then you have to add a bland meaning to the message. And then you have to contextualize it. Right. So there’s a lot of things involved in hearing. And if you mess up any one of these, like you’re going to miss it. Right. And if you extend it to the spiritual version of hearing, then the space that you’re attending to is not confined to sound waves. It’s everything that is coming at you. Right. Like in everything that that’s coming at you can call out to you. Like sometimes it screams and then you’re like, oh, I need to deal with this. But sometimes it’s like crying in a corner and it’s hidden below like 15 blankets. Right. Yeah. And it’s like, how do I ever get there? Right. Exactly. So yeah. So when we’re talking about, well, you’re talking about responsibility, right? And you’re talking also about the process of creativity in a sense. Like you have faith in ways of hearing, right? Or listening. Maybe it’s not hearing, right? Like it’s ways of listening. And then sometimes you can attune in the right way that you actually hear through that. Right. So the way that I would frame that is these ways of listening are beliefs. Right. Like I believe that if I do this, right? Or like that’s good. Right. Somewhat. Somewhat, yes. There is a belief aspect to it. Yeah. And the faith is, can I hold on to that belief? Like, can I participate in the belief? More like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me try to rephrase that based on. So what you’re saying is that faith is a matter of holding on to that belief. Right. That’s being in faith. Sorry. That’s being in faith. It’s not what faith is. It’s being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s being in faith. Being in faith is a matter of holding on to the belief that if you listen, you will hear. If you seek, you shall find. Right. If you knock, it shall be opened up to you. That’s faith. Right. But those are different, right? Those are different beliefs. Like, because the ones that you’ve cultivated, right? Those are already there. Right. So that’s more in the level of trust, right? You trust in your ability to do this, right? Yeah. Yeah. And when you say if you knock, the door will open, right? That there’s no trust there because, like, you don’t know what’s behind the door or you don’t know the door as such, right? Mm hmm. So we’re well, and you could maybe reframe that when you’re playing with the fractal layers, right? But there’s, well, there’s two directions that you can go, right? You can go to the land that you’ve already discovered and map it out better. And you can go into the unknown. And there’s faith has a different quality than when you’re acting in faith in your map territory. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Fully, fully. I know exactly. Yeah, I know what you mean. So there’s a distinction between the trust and the methods I’m using and between actually letting go of these methods and just opening up to what’s coming now. And that would be faith. It would be closer to faith than other things. And this is actually something that does happen, that if I get too attached to one method, like if I get too grabby, I say, no, no, this is what works. I can’t lose this. And that’s actually when everything closes up again, because sometimes the method doesn’t work in this situation. And sometimes you need to be open to another thing. Or you need to be something that organizes all the methods. You need to be open to something that organizes all the methods together. Yes, right. And there’s also a method of organizing that you can also get stuck in, right? So we get the fractal layer again, right? Yeah. So when we take that framing, right, it’s like there is something what it’s like to participate in the openness as such, right? And I’m just going to state that there’s a quality of being receptive. That is universal across all frames. That would be great. Well, yeah, you just have to believe it, right? And then you’re going to cultivate it. And then either that’s a thing that you can do. So there seems to be a distinction here between entering into it and cultivating it. Because cultivating it seems to mean having the methods. Or having this inner disposition to be in line with it, to be in tune with it. And there’s the state itself, right? Not completely, right? You could say that if you have a tree in your garden, right? The tree does what it does, right? And maybe you have to prune it once in whatever, a year or like whatever cycle you pick, right? And that’s the cultivation that you need to do, right? Like you just have to prune it. And so it’s not so much that the cultivation is you adding water or whatever. It’s not like there’s too much of this, right? You’re growing too much to the left. And if you grow more to the left, you’re going to fall over, right? So I’m just going to get rid of some stuff in the left. And shift my attention a little bit to the right, right? Like there’s nothing wrong with attending, right? And if you realize that you are doing something with your attention, then you can also not do it. So that’s a bit difficult for me. For example, like we’ll get back to your tree metaphor, but just to answer that last statement that you said. Let’s say I want to pray. Okay, when you’re praying, there’s not much effort you need to put. You just need to imagine that somebody’s there. Just need to trust that God is listening, right? And you just pray. And then I find myself just, okay, it’s not working. It’s not working. Okay, fine. It’s okay. It’s not working. It’s not going to work all the time. All you need to do is say the words. Just start by saying the words, very minimal. And then again, start working. It’s not working. It depends on the prayer you’re using, right? Like you’re making a universal statement about something that has many expressions. Right. Right? Like when I talk to you, right? Me talking to you has like I can tell you something. I can ask you something. I can listen to you, right? Those are all true for prayer. And when I want you to do something for me, right? I can try to command you, right? But that’s probably not going to work. It might work once, right? But the second time you’re like, dude, like chill out. Right? Yeah, exactly. Um, the how to how to make something happen, right? Is is a matter of whether I approach you with humility, right? And I can appeal to your grace in some profound sense, right? Like like when you deem me worthy, you will extend help to me, right? Or love better than help, right? Because help is transactional more so. So so the. And this is this is hearing as well, right? Like so if you if you are loving towards me, right? Like you can hear things in my communication that I’m not telling you. Right. Like you can say, oh, man, he’s in that spirit. And if I just provide him this thing, like like, right? So you you have to realize that if that’s the relationship that can happen between us, the relationship between you and God is is that to infinity, right? Like he he can blow your mind in such a way that that you can’t recover. Right. So that’s the thing. That’s that’s why it helps me much. It helps me a lot. For example, one of two things either before I pray, if I imagine myself talking to someone to a human or before I pray, I actually talk to a person and then I pray because then then I’m there. I’m in that state where I am just approaching that the person with that kind of humility without that expectation that I’m supposed to be doing something. Then I can enter into that state of trust because when I’m receiving the feedback from the person or rather when I’m seeing the person, I’m more inclined to to release expectations because I’m so used to human interactions. There’s a sense of reverence, especially if I really, really respect the person, for example. Then I can go into the prayer and I still remember what that’s like. But if I was, say, for example, I don’t know if I was working, then I go into the prayer. Somehow I’m just stuck with myself. I’m stuck in myself. There is no there isn’t the sense that snaps me out of myself and causes me to be self reflecting because when I’m talking to someone and there’s the expectation of feedback, then I’m in there. And that is open awareness. But if I’m just praying, then the words are really stale. They’re just things I’m saying to myself. They are just me and I am masking my good. Good. OK, so like I think everybody suffers from this. And so effectively, effectively what you’re saying is I’m in a spirit. And I’m approaching from the spirit prayer and then I get I get stuck. And I’m like, like my my way of dealing with this and I’m yeah. I’m not saying this is right and this is this is one of my flaws, but I’m like, I’m I’m refusing to do it. Right. I’m OK. I’m when I’m not in the right state of mind, it’s better not to do it than to do it. Right. Like and that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do anything or whatever. Right. But you should do the thing that works instead of trying to force the thing that that that you know is going to fail. I got super excited when you said that. Sorry, because that’s exactly what that what happens with me. That’s exactly what happens because basically if it’s not working, then you don’t want to do it. That’s kind of a belief I have that on some level you’re not convinced that your entire being should be invested there. Something your heart is in another place. Right. And I think that’s kind of what what what what is being meant with if you approach with unforgiveness or something like that. With unforgiveness or something like the prayer that is an insult towards God. Right. So yeah. Yeah. It’s but but yeah, like then the question is, what do you do? Right. And I like I firmly believe that you can get yourself in in a different spirit. Right. Well, for me, just before you go on, it’s important for me to mention this, that for me, the middle zone is isn’t to stop doing it all together, but rather to go through the motions to keep to keep yourself in tune with that reality. If that makes any sense, just go through the motions. And when your heart is in the right place, your body is already used to the motions you can receive. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s that’s that’s one way to approach it. But but I I think I think there’s different types of prayer. Like and I think there’s one type of a prayer where like you’re focusing on attuning to the capacity to be in in relationship to God. Right. And and there’s there’s like like and I’m I’m going to use terminology from my church and I’m going to butcher it because like I don’t fully understand it. But I think what they were communicating is is that’s praise. Right. So so when you praise God, right, like I think that’s also implicitly humiliating yourself. Right. Because because you don’t say the things right. You adopt the frame. Right. It’s like like you’re you’re glorious. Right. Or like like you’re the king of kings. Right. And it’s like OK. What what does that mean? Right. And then you also have Thanksgiving. Right. And Thanksgiving is also a a means of humiliating yourself because it’s it’s recognizing the dependence. Right. Like it’s like it’s not me. Right. And and I also think that when you do these things, they’re frame breaking. Right. Because what they’re doing is they’re they’re attuning you to the relevant things in life. Right. So you like you come in attuned to oh my God, that co-worker did this or like I’ve been struggling with this program and it’s just like a mess. Like right. So you come you come in with this achievement to some crazy spirit. Right. Or like I’ve been trying to write this thing for four hours and I only got half a page. Like this is not OK. And and so to snap out of that, you you need to let go. Right. Yeah. And and I think these these ways are are a measure. And then there’s there’s another thing is you you can you can call upon passion. Right. You can actually and passion yourself. Right. Like song works like really powerfully. Exactly. Exactly. But you you you can get yourself right. You can call upon something in yourself like I’m doing now. And it’s like exactly like like there’s and it’s like there’s a conviction there. Right. And all of this stuff you obviously need to cultivate. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I’m that you’re going to do it. It’s like OK. And now know what. Right. It’s like I did it. And yeah. And so it’s like I feel nothing. Right. Yeah. No. Well or you feel something. And it’s like I can’t I can’t redirect it. Right. Like now I’m in this other spirit and it’s like like it’s not submitted. Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and so I think all of these things you need you need to cultivate over time. Right. And and and in some sense they’re silly. Right. Like that’s a different level of humiliation. It’s like like I don’t feel comfortable in this participation because it’s unnatural. Right. Like it doesn’t feel but but yeah like this goes into remembrance. Right. Like you you can remember previous states of gratitude. You you can remember previous states of being in passion. Right. And so when you make that like a highway right like it’s it’s you create a neural path. Yeah. Which is accessible. The the remembrance is that which can reorient. Yes that’s let me get something to write the stuff down so that I can remember it afterwards. Okay. So anybody wants to leave a comment or so that we can engage with that too. That’s great. Yeah. Because so don’t don’t don’t take advice from me apart from the fact that I’m highlighting options. Right. No no I think the problem is I agree with this. Not the problem. Our problem is that I know I think the thing is like what you’re saying resonates with things I’ve experienced before. So so when it resonates it’s like okay I need to remember this because it works for me and it works for him so it probably has something of importance. So I just like. No but I yeah I think I think it’s there’s a fundamental truth to it right. But but I think there’s also a danger there if you misapply it right especially if you get to the more passionate side of things. And and and so yeah like doing that under the context of a spiritual guide and or in communion or whatever is yeah but so so that’s kind of what what I’m thinking right and then well what what we do on church is basically take any piece of the Bible right and then extract from that a relational dynamic pointing towards God right and then we framing that upon our lives right. So whatever right like the door will be open or whatever right and then then you go ask that of God like please God like allow the door to be opened in my lives or in our lives right and engaging engaging with that right but but from the heart right like you and and and so this is where I got this idea of what the purpose is of speaking in tongues because and and and the speaking in tongues is is you not being able to articulate the the communication right like you you don’t have words for it but but on the other hand you shouldn’t have words for it right like like you you get you get you you get the words right and they’re an icon right and and then they’re inviting you to to something that that isn’t articulable right. Yeah. Well at some point it might be right and that’s that’s what I learned was the interpretation of tongues like that you get to interpret but but it’s interesting because I thought that the interpretation of tongues was you hear other people speak right and I’m like no no no it’s I can tell other people what I’m doing it’s actually probably what what my gift is whatever right okay so yeah so when yeah when when you’re in that relationship right you you can recontextualize your life right but but you need to get there from a place of absolute humility right like because else you’re you’re just gonna superimpose but you’re gonna you’re gonna wield it right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the the the the superimposing thing is actually a pattern that I have that that so let’s say I 10 minutes ago I made a prayer and it was so perfect and I got into the state and it was very transformative 10 minutes later I go in with the expectations and I try to superimpose them on the other thing I’m doing and I think this is what you mean at least partly by humility that you need to walk in and you have no idea what’s going to happen you have no idea what’s going to work and what’s not going to work it’s not up to you well it’s even worse right like there’s there’s something else right that is supposed to happen and you got responsible responsibility for making that come true yeah you are responsible somehow but not in the places you think you’re responsible well probably well if if you’re misattuned right if you’re misattuned exactly if you’re misattuned yeah so yeah so yeah like you you talked about responsibility right yeah and and so I guess I guess I want to connect the responsibility to calling right so you are responsible to nurture or or presence right like you can have you can have a masculine and a feminine relationship to that right so so if if if I’m annoying or I’m I just get lost in some crazy spirit right like you you have to call me to account right like like there’s a responsibility there but there’s also a responsibility in okay he’s trying to get to to find the words right but but but he doesn’t have the contextual uh framework that allows him to get to where he needs to go yeah and I provide structure right or yeah or even support right like it might be like oh yeah there’s an emotional blockage happening right and I I give a means to resolve the emotional tension that that is preventing the progression yeah yeah yeah that pretty much very well describes the beginning of the conversation at least what should what was what I was supposed to be trusting the way it should have been framed in the first place yeah and again this goes back to faith so this was a lack of faith in you and more of a faith it was a lack of faith in there was a lack of many things yeah there was a lack of faith in many things there yeah it’s more like okay um I don’t know how to articulate this like what was the problem was going on definitely there was a lack of faith but I did trust in something and whatever I trusted it wasn’t fulfilling what it was supposed to do and that’s what I’m trying to figure out right now what what was it there was trusting I think I was just trusting why does it matter so I don’t do it the second time why why does it why does it matter what you were trusting like it it’s you gotta find what you want to trust not what you shouldn’t trust like the space of the things not to trust this that’s a good point that’s a good point that’s like this is this is the problem I walk into with everybody they’re like oh I have this problem I gotta deal with it it’s like no you don’t you don’t have to deal with your problem yeah like you you gotta you gotta find a way to make it work like it’s not opponent processing like no no no opponents like everything has to work together this is beautiful this could you give an example or is it be too much because I so the way I’m interpreting this is that let’s say I have a bad habit for example I don’t know like I eat too much I have many bad habits I mean all of us do right and the the solution is not to attack the habit and try to so-called stop it so so you change but rather to contextualize it put it in place and to cultivate other things which you can work on and then eventually everything will fall into place together and the bad habit will will cease on its own right so you gotta work on on building the foundation right yeah yeah if if you have if you have a big foundation right and you’re building up and there’s a branch here right if you just build here then you could just go and you can cover the branch right you don’t have to saw through the branch or or drill a hole like all of these things work around it work around it don’t like this you don’t you don’t work around it like you with it you ignore it you don’t identify against the branch right yeah and like you might bump your head a couple times right and then and then you you work around bumping your head instead right it’s like I shouldn’t bump my head so it’s it’s like it’s like pre-problem right so you’re like oh I’m gonna get into this problem so I need to not do the thing that gets me into the problem okay yeah so you’re adding a problem to the number of problems right you’re over complicated the problem no no no you’re not over complicating the problem right but it’s like like there’s just things that you can do right like so for example if if I have this idea I want to fly right and it’s like that idea brings me like a ton of suffering because every day I spent like two hours on the internet trying to figure out how to fly and whatever right it’s like like I can I can solve it in the space of the problem I want to learn how to fly or you can just say every time I go to the idea of wanting to fly that’s bad like like participating in the idea of wanting to fly is is is is bad and and that’s a sin and I need to avoid this and instead right I I turn that energy towards whatever right like like something that is generated right and right and now it it might be that flying is actually important right like because it’s fulfilling a function or whatever that you need and and then it’s like you you gotta you gotta compensate right so you you might have to extend more effort than you would have when you could fly for example right but it’s like well is that bad right and and my answer is like there’s almost or or maybe never a circumstance where that’s not acceptable right and and not better now the the risk is that if you stop going in in in the direction that you well if you remove the two hours studying that you get a void there right and if you don’t replace the void with with something that’s good then maybe you should spend that time trying to figure out how to fly instead right that like that would be better than than doing drugs for example right so so you have to take responsibility in that sense right it’s like okay like if I’m not doing this what what am I going to do right and like this is this is the problem with most addictions like if if you’re addicted and you stop like what are you going to do like you you don’t have any skills like like how are you how are you going to get yourself out of that right so and and and then you have to you have to say I’m going to work on skills right and so that’s where where prayer comes in is like okay like instead instead of going to my social media I can pray yeah like it’s like uh or I can read read the bible or you can I can I can I can send messages to people that that I haven’t had contact with right to check up on them like there’s many many ways that you can participate uh that that’s better right and and yeah so so that’s kind of a methodology it’s probably not foolproof but but on the other hand like do you have something better right yeah yeah no I I know I know what you mean I mean I’ve personally experienced that so I personally had phases where there are things that I really needed to stop doing and when you didn’t do them there was this gap where you’d be bored and okay it’s like what do I do we just sit there and do nothing or what and then I think that’s when I was really into meditation and mindfulness and what filled the gap was meditation and mindfulness that was a period of growth for me because I was able to replace something that wasn’t good with something that was generative it was of course effort it was hard but I had faith that this would be generative that thing I I don’t know if I can call it faith but I have a firm belief that putting efforts in cultivating this is going to be generative and that’s how you make this this transition from there to there to begin with yeah so in Dutch there was this unhearing right like there was this an English was called belief right so the capacity the incapacity to hear right is the lack of belief interesting so so the but but here’s the thing here’s the thing like when you’ve experienced the hearing several times right like many many times isn’t this enough I mean you’ve seen it exemplify before your face and you’re still unable to believe that I mean doesn’t this tell us that it’s either a learning problem or that belief is not enough right no no no right like this again it’s a fractal right so well a lot a lot of people struggle with worthiness right like it’s that that’s not really a problem of mine and way too confident for that right but um this this idea that you’re not worthy right it’s it’s it’s really fundamental right because it’s like it’s not even an option for me to consider doing this right right right which is actually the thing that I was appealing to to remove negative stuff right but but it’s aimed like that skill is aimed at the generative right at the good yeah yeah instead of at the bad right and and then it’s like well what’s what’s the story that you’re telling yourself that that is accepted an acceptable way of conceiving of yourself right like because because right if you if you go from the text right like like first of all you don’t get to decide and secondly you are right at least if you’re believing right and and and and the fact that you don’t believe is the thing that makes you unworthy right like like it it’s it’s actually making it true right like it’s self-fulfilling yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you don’t believe that you’re worthy then you’re not like yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly exactly exactly this is very good and okay here’s the thing I think I realized why I asked this question to begin with you’re right yes it is about belief but changing that belief is not so simple you may think you changed it because I think this was my problem that that I think sometimes I reach points where I think okay I’m done with all the self-worth problems but then they’re still there but yeah but actually but it depends on the level which you engage in right exactly yeah if you look at the fractal and and like like this is god right and and you’re solving it here right like this this whole piece right and and then like even if you if you solve it here right like there’s a pressure from from the top or whatever right that’s the can still crumble what what is below it right so the only way to resolve it is to at at the most fundamental layer right like this behavior right like is evil right on the basis of that right all right all right all right yes yes yes yes yes now I get it now I get it now I get it every time you think of yourself as unworthy this is bad just just stop just don’t do it not don’t do it just okay reframe it this is evil just don’t don’t don’t go go down the trajectory that puts you on. Right. Like, do whatever else in some sense. Right. Like, obviously, there’s things that you shouldn’t else do. But like almost everything is better than following that road because, well, you know where the road leads. Like, it’s not a secret. The thing is, the thing is, it’s sometimes it’s difficult to distinguish these situations where you have low self-worth. I’ll give you an example. In the social stuff, the level of social stuff that’s gotten much better for me, at least when I’m with friends, that’s OK with me. But, for example, at the level of religion, it hasn’t penetrated there. And at the level of religion, I’m still somehow somewhat or a part of me is somewhat convinced that these feelings of worthlessness are keeping me in check. And if I let them go, I think that’s to some extent true. If I let them go, then I’ll be more lenient with myself. And I worry that means that I’ll be out of control. It definitely has something to do with control. So this is… Yeah, but you will be out of control. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. Like that’s going to be true by definition. Right. So that’s not the problem. The problem is whether that is a problem. Well, because that’s what fate is. Like you defined it in the microcosm at the start. It’s like it’s letting go of the control that allows the thing to come forward so that I can participate in it, in its being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you believe in the fractal nature of reality, right, and if you believe that your observations on that level are correct, then why would you not believe that that is true on the largest frame that there is? Every time I try to think about it, something pushes me away. It’s like this is not where it’s supposed to go. It’s hard to conceive. It’s not that it’s hard to conceive of it. Like sometimes when I think of it, this fractal nature of reality, when I think of it, it sounds good. I’m happy to hear of it. But then I don’t know, something in me just says it’s all in your head. This is just you have no proof for this. OK, well, first of all, yes. Yeah. Right. Secondly, also, yes. Right. Like it is in your head. It you don’t have proof. You’re not ever going to have proof until you actually try to participate in it. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s true. And even if you do get successful, that sometimes it’s not enough you to cultivate it for a long period of time until you actually see and have enough experience to say that this is the way it is. Right. And it’s like. If it’s outside your head, right, like it’s still going to have to be inside your head. Right. And if it’s not outside your head, it still might work inside your head. Right. So like all of these questions are you can ask them or you can just say, like, they don’t matter because like I’m still going to have to try. Exactly. Rejected. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You’re going to have to participate in it before you conclude. And for a while you can reject it. Right. But then you need to draw the implications of rejecting it. Like what? Well, like, like, I think every faith is based upon this principle. Right. So it’s like not engaged with faith. Like and if you ponder the performance of contradiction. Right. And like, well, this is this is what happened to me when I went to church. Right. It’s like I’m here. Right. I’m I don’t foresee myself not going in the foreseeable future. So I just have to participate like I was I’m a hypocrite. But it is like, like, I’m here like something in me thought that this was a good idea. Right. Either I’m I’m going to listen. Or I’m going to reject it. Right. Like, yeah, there was this whole sermon either fully in or you’re fully out. Yeah. Like there was this whole sermon about being lukewarm. Right. And like it was it was a couple layers further than this. But like, yeah, no lukewarmness, dude. Like, like, that’s that’s no good for anybody. Exactly. You’re either in your out. And that was also a part of what I learned. Not not in the context of church, but more so in the context of, let’s say, decide now you’re going to write, now you’re going to sit and you’re going to write. It’s earlier what was happening was that, OK, I sit and write and I want the piece to be finished so that I can jump and do something else on my list later. But that doesn’t work because then you’re not fully there. No, you have to invest in it and you have to sacrifice the time. And all of with all of your being, take it step by step, and that’s when it works. Otherwise, you’re just going to be you’re just going to be on the surface because the depth requires sacrifice. Yeah. And so, yeah, then then the quote, well, yeah, for me, it’s not a question. Right. But but again, right, like it’s it’s it’s not. It’s not blind faith. And like this, this is this is where all the all the spiritual people are like, right, they’re they’re going effectively in blind or they’re they’re using some sort of system that that hasn’t been proven, right. And obviously they they have no way of judging. Like that’s that’s the problem. Like you you don’t have a way of judging and like like why why are you buying into this? Right. You can you can ask the same question for the traditional faith. Right. And it’s like, yeah, well, you shall know them by the fruits. Right. And then it’s like, well, what what is the fruit of this person that’s having the system? Right. And or like translating the tongues, right. Like, OK, like maybe they actually had legit had whatever experience and whatever. Right. But like, does that mean that they can articulate that in a way that you can participate in it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like that that’s a completely different thing. Like people can be authentic and useless. Like it’s like, well, yeah, like you you can be saved, right. Like and still be an asshole in some sense. Right. It’s like you can walk in faith all the time. But but if you if you don’t integrate it within a community and like all you have all of these other fractal layers that that are also resonating, it’s like like, OK, but also no. Yeah. But I don’t think it works. I think if it’s genuine, if it’s it’s it’s right, then it will affect all the levels by definition. It will slow over to other levels. I don’t know. Yeah. Then again, I also don’t know. So like that, like, like I don’t I don’t necessarily think so. Right. Like, yeah, like I can I can I can. Well, I am certain. But you you can regress, right. In your development. Yeah. Like you you can abandon things. Right. So if you ever make a wrong assumption at some point. Right. Like like I see it all the time with these people, with the materialistic framework, right, or a Nostic framework. Right. Like a lot of these these things are Nostic. Right. So so there’s there’s a wrong assumption there. Right. And that’s why they’re teaching people. It’s like, oh, if I just give you the secret knowledge. Then, right, because if you if you were truly, right, if you were truly faithful, like what would your issue be by submitting to the church? Like for real. Like, at least you wouldn’t contradict it, right? Because because then you’re like, well, I know better than than than this tradition, right? Like that, that’s a lack of humility. So, yeah. Yeah, the if you truly had the faith in the tradition, then you wouldn’t you wouldn’t need any depth, you just need the simple things. And then that’s just enough. For. You would just need you would need to complicate things. Right. If you had that, that’s that’s my experience, right? Like I I built my stupid tower of Babel, like all the way up to fractal layers. Right. And then I was standing like, I don’t know how many steps, but I’m just going to say not too many steps below God. And I’m like, I can’t go up. Right. And then you’re there. You’re like, damn it, I’m going to have to go all the way down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Shit, man, shit. This is resonating so badly with this. There’s so much. Like. Like. This was one of my insights during this. For the past year, I’ve been so in love and obsessed with all the stuff about virtue, Platonism, the intelligible, mindfulness, cultivating a good heart. And just like you, I reached a very high point. And then. Like, I noticed where all the friction was coming from and that there was a deep place in my heart that wanted something else other than what I was cultivating. And I noticed that when the calling came. Like when I had this phase with the obsessive thoughts about God and Hellfire, all this stuff, I noticed I couldn’t give it what I like. If I had enough faith, I wouldn’t care. I wouldn’t care what God was like. I wouldn’t care what truth was like. I would just do it. But no, there was a part of me that wanted something else, and I had to go all the way down and face that. It’s kind of I had to even undo a few things. It was a bit heartbreaking. But, yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Yeah, well, you’re probably me, too. Like I’m I’m I’m actually I actually know that I’m holding on to a bunch of things. Yeah. Yeah. And then it’s like, well, I have my reasons. Like, yeah, you always have your reasons, right? I mean, yeah, if you’re holding on anything, any spiritual work is like trying to force a mold on something that does not want to be molded and then you’re just trapping it in there and it’s not really. Changing, you know what I mean? Right. And like, that’s why I kind of refuse to do that. Exactly. You end up refusing. You end up you don’t end up refusing. You end up being unable to do it. And you don’t know that you’re actually refusing that on some level there is. No, no, no, I’m I’m I’m I’m completely I know. No, I’m I’m in sin. OK, I’m OK. And I’m OK with being in sin. OK. And like I just have I have faith. Right. And the faith is that that I will build the foundation that can hold that so that I don’t have to rely on on what I’m relying upon because God is going to take care of it like that’s that’s the super faith I have. Right. So it’s not no, it’s not mine to resolve. I’m having a bit of trouble like drawing connections because it’s very abstract. So if I can concretize it with something for me, for example. I. Got used to not eating very much like for the past month, for example, and it was. Because I wanted not to be gluttonous, I was very afraid of being gluttonous and so I ended up eating much less than I should and got very thin. But at the same time, I was very comfortable with this capacity to not give in to my desires. But then the vacation came and I was in my home country and your home country. You eat a lot, you eat a lot. And I kind of broke this rule. So I started eating, started eating as much as I just I just told myself, OK, now it’s OK, now it’s OK to eat as much as you want. What was I adding with this? So. I wanted to have faith that if I let the system swing between the extremes, eventually. Your inner compass will teach you where the middle point lies, where the no, no, no, that’s that’s not how that works. You don’t think so? No, because you can’t see the middle from the extreme. No, no, I’m sure streams from the middle. Absolutely. You can’t see the middle from the extremes. But if you go to the extremes, you will suffer. You will suffer the consequences of the extremes. Yeah, you won’t suffer. You can suffer your whole life like that. There’s no problem. But the point is that the suffering points you towards where the middle is. We can you can tell. Well, I don’t think so. I don’t know. I think the suffering is is kind of your inner compass guiding you towards where you’re supposed to be. No, I don’t. That doesn’t mean you will change. That doesn’t mean you will change. No, I don’t suffer in worship. Like, like, I like I think I feel that there’s something fundamentally wrong with that. OK. So you don’t believe in suffering as a way. OK, that’s I believe in suffering. Yeah, no, I believe in suffering. Right. Like, I think things like fasting, right, are ways to stretch yourself in the spirit. Right. So they’re building of conviction. It’s like, yeah, you’re not doing this for any other reason than for God. Mm hmm. Like, it’s like, yeah, I’m doing this for God because like, that’s what I need to do. Like, I got I have trouble sleeping and like the church is that well, the men are going to have to show up on on Saturday morning at six o’clock. So I went to sleep like between two and three. Like I have to be in church at six. All right. So like and I like I do it because because I I just chose like, OK, I’m going to submit to this right like and this is well, like I can give reasons that like I don’t really want to. But there’s consequences. So I give consequences instead of reasons. Right. Like it’s it’s integrating me in the community. Right. Like it’s it’s showing my commitment towards the community. Right. But and it’s showing that to them, but also to myself. Right. And the other part is, is like, like I’m suffering, right. Like I’m voluntarily suffering in a realm that I know that I have trouble. OK. And so when when I do that. I. I well, there’s two things, right? Like I can stretch something or I can break. And and that’s what the problem with suffering is, right? Like. Like, what is the container in in which you’re doing it? And is it actually serving the role that that you’re because because like, like, if you’re just suffering to to prove that you’re part of the community so that you can get respect. Right. Like, is that is that really helping you grow spiritually? Like, no, like it’s doing the opposite in some profound sense. Right. Like it’s actually so doing the activity is not granting you what what it needs to grant you and because the thing that’s granted is by grace. Right. Like you don’t earn it. I’m with you. I’m with you on this. I’m fully, fully agreeing with that, that that you need to suffer for the right reasons in the end, not for the wrong reasons. And the point where if you stretch yourself in the wrong direction, you’ll break before you grow anything, but if you stretch yourself in the right direction, you will grow as you stretch. But the point that I was trying to make is that. Let’s say it’s kind of close to what you were talking about, where you don’t try to remove the problem, the problem. OK, it’s there. Fine. You reframe it and then you cultivate something generative on the side. But what I’m talking about here is that, OK, fine. You you’re eating too much now. Great. You know you’re eating too much. Then then you swing to a little bit less and then you swung to too much less. Then so you go back to eating a bit more. So the point is that. The recognition that it’s too much or too little is afforded by suffering. Or pain that’s not say suffering by pain. Actually, you know, that’s not very accurate. You can just you can just have a standard like like why do you need your body to give feedback when you can just judge yourself? Like, oh, I ate two plates instead of one. That’s outside of my habit. Like, why can’t you have that as a signal? Then, oh, my belly hurts like like they’re doing the same thing in in planning, at least. Right. So like like if you want to do a scientific how much do I eat? Right. Like you just need to attend to what you’re eating. Like. And you need to count the number of colors or something like this. No, not count. Yeah, not not that strict. Right. But you just. Oh, I am eating more like I’m taking this extra sausage today. Right. Like. Like, you know it like, like, you know. Like, like, it’s not it’s it’s not hidden for you. Like, you choose to take that extra sausage. So like, you know that you did it and you can say, well, I have to punish myself the next day. He’s like, no, not really. Right. You just take the extra sausage. And it’s like, well, do you take the extra sausage the next day, too? Because then it’s like, well, now I’m I’m suffering with problems in self-control. Right. It’s like, why? Why am I why am I allowing myself to to go beyond what I know? And like, like the point is, right, you already know that it’s beyond because it’s an extra sausage. Right. Like, like, like the beyond this is implicit in in in your behavior. Yeah. So what you were saying is that you establish a standard of how much you eat. When you have one. Like, I have one. It’s there. You don’t have one because you’re stuck in the extremes. Maybe that’s the problem. No, the thing is, the standard I’m having is that if you feel full or just before full, then you stop. That’s the standard I’m talking about. It’s not a standard where I count, for example, how many plates I’ve eaten or something like that. It’s like, OK, now you’re not attending to something you could attend to. Exactly. OK. You could. But that’s the point, that’s the standard. No, it could. Well, you have to do it right. Like, like if you just listen to your body all the time and like, I don’t I don’t think there’s necessarily something wrong with listening to your body apart from your body wants to overeat, right? Like, like it’s it’s biased towards scarcity. Right. Like so I like every every moment that you can eat is better than not eating because like you’re going to have a point in the future where you’re going to need that reserve, right, and we don’t live in that world. So being fat is is a vice, but like in evolution, it would be like a virtue, right? It is still the still deviates from the point of trying trying to get to there. You said that there should be a standard like. No, I think there is a standard. OK, like like the fact that you’re alive, right? Like and and yeah, if you go to the extremes, right. But even even like I’ve I’ve done intermittent fasting, right. But I still could judge myself, but like I still knew, oh, this is not OK or this is OK or whatever. Like, like I know. And it works like I’m I’m not moving too much in my way, so like I’m doing something right. So what you’re saying is that you adopted the standard of intermittent fasting. And but I don’t have it anymore. OK, like like like even with that intermittent fasting, like I had a sense, right, like it’s a sense. And like you have it, too, right. Like you say, I overeat, right. Well, that means that you’re going over a standard. Right, right. Right. OK, yeah. OK. And what I’m basically saying is that. You need to swing a little, but you will like there’s no like that’s unavoidable. The question is whether you’re obsessed by it or not. See, that’s the thing. I think that’s the difference here. That’s that’s where the part where I have. Where I’m worried, that’s the part where I worry that way, that if I swing around my standards, this is why I was defending the point so hard, because I worry if I swing around my standards, that’s lack of self control. Well, it’s it’s it’s lack of self control in one dimension. Yes, because like if you don’t do that, you are exerting control. Like, but but like I can I can give you 15 realms of of your life where you do have that problem and you don’t have that control. So like, why are you focusing on this one? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those 15 balls in the air, too. And you’re not and still fine. See, this is what I meant by the swinging. So for me, this is already going in extremes like this swinging around your standards. This is I worry that this is. Breaking your standards, and this is why I was saying that I need to go in extremes. So I think I think that my definition of definition of extremes was different than your definition of extremes, because for me, deviating just a little bit from the standards that’s going into extremes. Look, yeah, but yeah, OK, but but like you got to take a step back, right? It’s like exactly. Yeah. Like, OK, why why is this why is this important? Like, why why can’t you just gain like a couple of kilograms and realize that, oh, well, I’ve been doing something and like whatever I did, it was it was apparently not good enough. So like now I got to like like take one scoop of rice less. I mean, yeah, that’s that’s the thing. I have a lot of difficulty doing that. It’s like, well, that’s a different problem. Yeah, it is a different. That’s the thing. That’s the that’s the real problem. I mean, it’s this. This is the line and I have to walk exactly on the line. That’s the problem. Like it if you see it in many different places in my life, like when I’m given instructions, I become too literal. That’s why I prefer doing stuff on my own, because when people start giving me instructions, I get very confused. Then I start visualizing what they say and I have to follow it. Like I have to follow the thread exactly like it’s drawn. I need to follow. But you’re not. Like, like, because first of all, that’s I know, I know, I know. Like it’s actually literally impossible. I agree. I agree with you. I agree that it’s literally impossible. But this is the problem that I think my literal interpretation like I’m basically realizing we can go back to to faith and yes, territory. Right. Yes. Yes. So when we’re looking at unknown territory, yes, you cannot literally interpret anything. Exactly. Because you don’t have the capacity to relate it to your participation in being. Exactly. Exactly. Right. So you just have to you have to realize. Right. Yes. Not understand, but to realize that it is a fundamental limitation of you as an embodied creature. Yeah, I don’t think I have made this realization yet. Well, to a certain extent, I have, but not enough so that it’s already an integrated part of my being, because as far as I can remember, this has always been the case with me that I always tend to not always just in many aspects, when I care too much about something, I start literalizing and I start walking in a very, very, very narrow line and I just shut myself off from the natural way of looking at it. But you just you just have to question yourself. Right. I know. I know. OK. Like every time that you feel certain. Yeah. It’s like, am I justified? Am I certain? Like, like, what’s the authority that that is? Making it so that I can trust on my interpretation. Fear. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I agree. I agree. No, but that’s a motivating factor. Yeah, exactly. It’s not an authority. Exactly. That’s the point. I know it’s not an authority. The motivating factor is mostly fear. Like, I need to reflect on this a little bit, but I think because the moments when I feel confident, like after singing, for example, or after, I don’t know, having a chamomile tea or something that can calm me down, that’s not there anymore. But if it’s if I’m not calm enough, then I’m there unconsciously, implicitly without even recognizing it. I think I have I have trouble distinguishing between fear and authority, because whenever I’m afraid of something, I project authority on it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I. OK, but but that’s the distinction between sailing is irrelevant. Exactly, exactly. Right. But that’s OK. But then I’m going to use Christian Nies now. Right. Go ahead. You have to die. Yeah, absolutely. You have to die. Right. And so that’s the fundamental that’s being safe. Right. Like, yeah, being safe means that you have made the axiomatic. Assumption, is that being bad? Well, whatever. Like, there’s one point in the process. Yeah. Where you make the axiomatic assumption that you prefer dying than being controlled by fear or Satan or whatever name you want to death. Right. Because you kill your spirit when when you get stuck in these things, right? Like they, yeah, they they literally. Take the fire out of you, right? Exactly, exactly. They suck you dry, right? Yes. So you you you got it. Well, you can say, well, I want to use the word fear of God, but I don’t think it’s appropriate. But it’s the fear. Well, it’s not no, it’s not a fear thing. It’s a positive thing. Right. It’s like, no, like I, I recognize that there’s salvation. Right. On the other hand, on the other side. Right. Like you said, right. Like you, you have to let yourself fall and trust that you’ll get caught on the other side. Right. And you just you just have to make the you bind yourself. Right. You commit yourself to that participation like I am I’m going to be caught. Yeah, and it’s like, yeah, that was that that sucks. Like, I can’t I can’t I can’t sell it to you, right? No, no, no, no, no, no, it’s you can. I’m fully I’m OK with this. I’m OK with that, that I need to let go just at something. This is pretty much what I’m trying to cultivate. Now that this capacity to just OK, let’s go and trust that you’ll be caught. This is just what I’m trying to cultivate. That’s why I chose faith to begin with, because this is precisely what I’m trying to do, both at the micro and the micro scale. Just let’s go and have the right orientation and trust that everything will be fine as long as you’re oriented in the right direction, because orientation is important. You can’t just have faith without orientation, because you can have faith and you can just go and indulge doing whatever the part you want. That doesn’t work. You’ll just get you’ll just exchange your spirit for a different spirit. For a different spirit. Yeah. You need to completely empty yourself and stay empty and then you will be filled. Yeah. And and right, like. Well, so if we’re talking about this idea of acceptation, right, this is like, well, have you accepted that idea in like your experience of being in faith into different areas? Yes, yes, yes. So. I know this. Let me think about this. So. At least in the very beginning, the exactation was happening from music and meditation into conversations with other people, so that when I’m having a conversation with others, I’m able to focus on what they’re saying, not on trying to prove a point, not on trying to portray a certain image. I just drop my role. I disappear. That makes any sense. I just focus on what the other person is saying and allow them to appear. That’s one way it’s been accepted. Now. OK, OK, well, hold on. I want to invite you a little bit. And what does it mean that the other appears? Yeah. So I’m listening to them. And I’m not projecting anything on them. I’m not projecting on them what they’re thinking. I’m not projecting on them what they’re expecting. I’m just listening. So what’s your experience of your projection? Yeah, for example, for example, when I’m when I’m talking to you, there’s always I always project that this role that this guy’s really experience, this guy’s really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really smart, I need to do everything he says. This is literally what I project. And then as I’m talking, when I’m really truly listening. This self, this inferiority complex drops and I’m just listening to what you’re saying, I’m just trying to make sense of what you’re saying, trying to take the words, relate them to my experiences, relate them to what I already know, and then trying to see if your words still make sense together. And then I ask you questions to make sure if I understood you. And so what what is the inferiority complex changing in that dynamic? Like, how is it different? So how is it different when they OK, so when I have the inferiority complex, it’s like he’s right about everything he says. And. So basically, when I have the inferiority complex, I’m just internalizing and absorbing everything you say as I’m interpreting it. I’m not trying to question whether this actually applies to me or not, whether I actually agree with it or not, it’s OK. Yes, sir. Right. Yeah. But. When I hear that, I’m like, that’s not possible. Like what you just told me, like, that’s not a thing you can do. Like, it’s not a thing you can do. That’s the thing with the molding again. It’s like, I think I’m doing it, but I’m just doing it because I’m afraid of some some idea in my head that if I don’t do what you’re saying, if I don’t do what this wise man is saying, then I’m going to suffer consequences. So then it takes it takes some it takes you telling me that that, OK, you’re just projecting this on me that I remember that I need to question it. Like that’s it took maybe a few conversations with us. And you pointed this out several times. And now it’s actually starting to come integrated in. That it took people pointing it out. Like, how do you know this is what I’m thinking? How do you know that this really is the case? And then I was able to start integrating it and question. So you’re adding you’re adding a layer of interpretation on me. Yes, and I don’t realize it is adding. For me, this has always been there. Like, I’m so used to doing that. I think it kind of runs like we were kind of raised this way and but you’re not doing that with everybody. Right. Or if you are doing it with everybody, you’re not doing it with everybody in the same way. Definitely. OK, but then. Then. Like if. Do you see like if you’re not doing the same thing with everybody, that means that you do have discernment about it, right? Like fully agree with you. There is discernment about it. Yeah, there. I do have discernment about it, but sometimes the fear gets so strong. That I don’t have discernment anymore, that it’s like the thoughts become so convincing. It’s not just fear. If it was only good, OK, but what is the fear that I’m appealing to them? So you’re appealing to the fear that two things, if I don’t listen to this guy, I’m never going to be successful. I’m never going to move forward with my life and I’m going to go to hell. That’s one fear, for example. And let’s let’s see if I can, because there was an idea in my head that I lost it completely, so, yeah, yeah. So there’s that fear, but then it’s not just the fear alone. It’s also the arguments that come with it. They’re too much to articulate. They’re usually too fast in my head for me to articulate them. But when I’m in the state of fear, like my brain gives one convincing argument after the other, to give you an example of what I mean, this happens with self-worth a lot. For example, when somebody gives me criticism about something. I immediately start thinking this is such a simple thing and you don’t know how to do it, therefore, you’re not mature enough, therefore, you’re not worthy of being in the society, therefore you’re a reject. And I’m so convinced that I’m not useful for anybody else, that I’m not worth being in society. And then then I have a conversation with one person and she says. Do you really think your worth is measured by how useful you are to other people? And it just struck me as I agree that this is not how I judge other people. But when I’m alone, these thoughts are so convincing that I need somebody else to argue with me. To give me external arguments to break me out of this perspective. Otherwise, it’s vicious. It’s vicious. It’s like. I’m pretty sure it’s like a child trying to cling to their mother. You know what I mean? Like it’s this overprotective mechanism, and it’s a really, really clever overprotective mechanism. No, I know. Yeah, I totally get that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is what makes the faith so difficult. It’s not like I’m consciously doing this. I think this is the way it is. That when I come. But. To be fair, right, like we all have that. Yeah. In some area. Right. Yeah. So. And yeah, I. Yeah, you said the fear is a convincing argument. Like, like, OK, so maybe I’ll go this way. Like I’ve I’ve learned that I can argue any position. Yeah. Right. So. I don’t I don’t value people’s arguments. It’s like, OK, like you walk three steps down a logical road. Congratulations. Right. Like that’s that’s not where the game is played. Right. The game is played on what road you pick. Not on walking down the road, like walking down the road is a piece of cake. Like, like everybody can do it. Like, yeah, to a certain degree. Right. I think I think I haven’t learned that. I think I haven’t learned that yet. I’m learning it definitely and getting better at it. But to the extent that I’m confident that I can argue any position because. Well, it’s not about arguing any position. It’s it’s it’s about realizing that the argument is irrelevant. I know. And that’s what I mean. That’s that like like that that I’m gifted or cursed with arguing any position is. Do you agree with me that learning this grants you strong. Courage against your thoughts, because then you know that whatever thought arguments your thoughts are giving you, you don’t think so. No, no, you don’t think it does. OK, not not necessarily, not necessarily. Because because you still have to have to discernment. Like, like, like you still have to know what’s good and bad. Like, like if. If I can look at at at my like, how do I know that that that Hitler argument argument is wrong? Like, well, like, where do I stand when I judge that? Like, like, in some sense, I fundamentally can’t. Like, like, I can’t write. And when we’re talking about authority, right, like the authority that I experience in my life is is from my knowledge of being. Right. Like, like, like, what what is revealed to me to to my participation. Convinces me, right. With victory, I think, right. Like, so it it it it takes me with it. Because. That’s being right, like, like, that’s and it’s not direct knowledge, it’s direct experience of something that the most clear kind of knowledge that you can get from the knowledge by presence. But but but but it’s also not clear. Yeah, like it’s it’s it’s also the most unclear at the same time. Right. Like, it’s it’s not clear in the sense that it tells me like, dude, this is this right or like, this is the answer. Right. It’s more like, don’t go there or that that that that that doesn’t work like that doesn’t fit. Like, like what that person is saying, like there’s no way that that is true. Right. Like, I don’t I don’t know what the truth is. Sometimes I can make make educated guess. Right. And sometimes I see a pattern where I’ve been in like 10 times and I’m like, dude, you’re doing this right. Like, like, I just recognize what you’re what you’re doing. But but but still, right, like, like it still doesn’t tell you what to do at at some level. Right. So you still like this, this problem with with authority, right. Like this, there’s the don’t do this, which which is basically looking down and saying, this is this part I don’t engage with and this part I do engage with, which is good for it because that resolves like a whole host of things. Right. It’s like, I don’t I don’t have to spend energy on on everything that’s on this side. Like, it just it’s not real to me. Like, it’s it’s it’s not an option. Like, I just reject on the basis that it’s evil if I participate in it. All right. Now, it is this good. I don’t know, like, like part of it is, right, like, I’m convinced that that that is somewhere there. Like, is all of it good? No. Like, do I know? Not really. But I know that if we go back to the metaphor of the of the tree, right, like if I keep pruning, like there’s going to be more stuff on this side, like, like, there’s just going to be a whole hill of that wood that can burn all right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Somehow it’s not a matter of goods in this case. It’s a matter of orientation. Yeah, but I but I do think there is a good. Yeah. Right. Because what what allows me to put things there? There is some good. There is some good. There is some good. Like I like there’s an authority that I can I can use to make this movement. Yeah. Right. Invoke it. Right. Well, no, I think that’s great. Like, like, like it. It it it gets revealed to me. Right. It’s like like it’s an insight. It’s like, oh, yeah, no. Oh, this is also participating in this pattern. And I never realized it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or like there’s this higher pattern that that to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s either it’s either that I’m crazy. I’m crazy. Or that I don’t have enough faith. To trust when I make these realizations, because I’ve made these realizations before. Oh, this is this pattern. But once the realization is gone, I just slip back in and coming back out is very difficult because of all the arguments. Right. Well, that’s because you listen to them. Mm hmm. Well, they’re very compelling, right? And they have like holding a gun to my head. Yeah, but but but you have to realize that they’re child’s play, right? They’re not the big questions. Here’s the thing. So. They kind of also protect me from going in the wrong directions or what I think is the wrong direction, for example. Mm hmm. So. There’s two parts of me. There’s a part of me that goes, OK, no. No one religion has a say to the absolute truth. There are many ways to go out. Any as long as you believe in God, any as long as you are consistently doing good, as long as you are consistently following the path with good intentions, you’re safe, you’re fine. Then there’s the other extreme that’s saying, no, no, no, there’s only one and you to look for it, otherwise you’re going to have. And I think I’m going to disagree with both. You’re going to agree with both. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Because it’s. I don’t I don’t think all religions lead to God necessarily. Right. Like they they lead to a part of God. Like, like, I don’t know how much of God, like, I don’t know. Like, but. But. You can’t relate to all religions because then, like, practitioner of many, master of none. No, no, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t mean that you’re a master. It doesn’t mean that you practice many at once. You need to commit. OK, but why is it relevant? Like, why would you put that in your frame? If you if you if you practice one religion, then practice it and ignore the rest, like why you. Because what if it’s not true? Well, then it doesn’t matter because you’re practicing the one that you pick. Like, I don’t understand. See, I don’t get the argument. So what I’m saying, like, you, you, you, you, you, you have bound yourself. Right. Like if you’ve bound yourself to untruths, right. Either God will save you from it. Or you’re fucked. Exactly. OK, well, then you have to trust God to save you from your stupid decision. And and this goes back to faith that I don’t think I trust God to say, well, no, that’s not true, actually. See, now that I’m talking about it, it’s easier to make the decision. It’s like I lost track of this, this orientation that if I just. I think about no, actually, you know, to be honest, I think a part of me. I think is part of me still thinks I’m somehow going to miss out if I go down that road that you are, well, I’m going to miss out. But here’s the thing. Like that’s that’s that’s the definition of going down the road. That’s not what I meant. Going down another road. If I’m missing out for something that’s worth it, that’s great. I don’t mind that. It’s good. The sacrifice is worth it. I’m happy to do that. But when you shouldn’t be sacrificed, never mind. If. The problem is that I worry that, OK, let’s say God is not personal. Let’s say God is like the one just impersonal, completely in a different place. And that doesn’t make sense to me, but it doesn’t make sense. But yeah, so that’s the fear that’s there. That’s like, like, like, like, like you have a personal relationship with God. Right. So, like, if you you either relate to an object or you relate to a person, I don’t think there’s another class of things that exist. Yeah, I it’s either. You have an either relationship with God. And but, yeah, I mean, sure. OK, fine. You have an either relationship with God. But does God care if you’re going on the right path and if he cares and if he cares? OK, let’s say God cares. Like, no, no, no. Hold on. Like you still you first have to define what God caring means. So. God cares means that if I’m going in the wrong way and I’m asking for guidance, he’s going to stop me. Yeah, but he isn’t. He isn’t going to stop you. OK. Like he’s going to allow you to stop yourself. Allow you to stop you. Well, yeah, OK, great. He’s going to allow me to stop myself. But then the fear is not gone. I mean, this is actually what exactly what happened with me. So I was going down the wrong road with being too harsh on myself. And everything just stopped. There was a rubber wall in front of me. And when I turn in a different direction, things got easier. That was for me, God allowing me to fix myself. Right. OK. But. To go back to the idea of impersonal, like not impersonal, not impersonal, just. Not a responsible or interactive, but. You know what I mean? So I’m going on the way I’m going in like, am I responsible for interactive with you? Yes, you are. Why? Because I asked you questions and you act talk to speak. Oh, OK. So like if you ask God questions, does he speak? I don’t know. I hope he does. I hope he does. Like what else is speaking like? Like, well, it could be it could be the devil, right? It could be it could be just my unconscious mind. Right. I mean, OK, but why isn’t God in your unconscious mind? Like, I don’t I mean, well, well. What if oh my God, there’s so many what ifs, I don’t know which ones to choose now. See, see, there’s a lot of conflict. So there’s a lot of conflict going on right here. Like I’m trying to stick to a particular perspective. But then when you ask questions, somehow I find an answer in another perspective and I betray the first perspective and then I respond from there. That makes any sense. Right. Because your perspective suck. That’s what it means. You mean they don’t hold. Right. They’re bad, like they’re not good ways to think about the world. And what makes you say that the fact that they’re so flexibly switching. Like if you had an argument against me, you should make it and you should destroy me. That’s the point. OK, let’s go on with this person. Let’s go on with this person. I’m going to I’m going to try to be more more authentic with myself. I’m going to sit in a straight position and try to embody this dude. I’m afraid of radical self-deception. If I take this religion and I follow it with all of my being, I am terrified that this is an act of self-deception and that I will just be programming myself in a single way and shutting myself off of the truth. I just heard for Vickie speak, by the way. You definitely there’s definitely for Vickie in there. Yeah. And it’s like, OK, true. Now what? So there’s two options here. Either. Three options, three options, three, only three. Ah, very, very clever. Let’s just go with this and let’s see how you’re going to destroy me. I’m going to need somebody to destroy me properly to get out of this. I know what you’re I can destroy you like 15 ways. Like, it’s just a silly argument, but keep going. I’ll keep going. Just work with me. There’s three possibilities. You’re good at this. There’s three possibilities. Either I’m in the right way, which is great, or I’m in the wrong way, in which case I need guidance. Or. God. Does not intervene with anything. And I’m just deceiving myself with. Words and ideas, that’s the three options. Yeah, I want I want you to expand on the third one, the third one. So. Spinoza’s God. You know, Spinoza’s God. That not fully, but I yeah, it’s it’s it’s it’s just an inanimate, what? Creator like clockwork thing, is that it? Something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just clockwork. Yeah, that doesn’t make sense. Tell me why. Because you. You are still. Finding his fingerprint. Right. In in his machination. OK, right. And the. Realization of the fingerprint. Has a spirit. That is acting in the world. So fractally speaking, going back to the top. God is involved in the world, that’s what you mean. Yeah, he is acting like, like he has to be. No doubt that he’s acting, no doubt that. Well, if he’s acting, then you can interact, right? Why? Well, you can. Sure. OK, sure. You can interact, you can participate, but is it really the same way you interact that you and I that’s that’s that’s the way that I understand Plato talking about dialectic, actually, like, OK, if this is what you mean, then I’m with you. OK, what? Well, yeah, OK, go ahead. So. If I were to speak about how I would be convinced of things like the way we interact, we are to interact with God. It’s not like I interact with you, but it still needs to be an either relationship in the sense that I need to ask, I need to listen to what comes. I need to act on that. You need to trust that. Being that the way the world works is that. Every everything is predisposed to wholeness. Everything is predisposed to coming together as whole life, life. That’s God. That’s basically the act of the bringer of life, the bringer of life. And the way you trust God, that you trust this principle that exists everywhere, that if something is off the path, it will be redirected to its course. As long as it’s open to it. Yeah, I wouldn’t frame it that way, but because there’s some flaws in it, I’m just realizing it. But yeah, I mean, like it won’t be redirected, right? It can redirect itself. It can redirect itself. Exactly. That’s a distinction. Right. And so so when you have have language like God, our Lord and Savior, right? That that that means that he is the holder of salvation. Right. And the surrendering of authority to the Lord. Is that which allows us to do the correction? Right. Concretize that. Give me a concrete version. Well, like like you cannot correct yourself if you find yourself more important than the imposition of correction. Yeah, I agree. If you haven’t surrendered. The authority for the decision to God, like you’re not going to be sensitive or capable of being corrected, like it’s not an option. That’s true. I agree with that. OK. So in order to. Know. The personality, right, that of God that you can participate in, right? There are certain things required of you to attend in the right way, to make the proper sacrifices. To reject certain things, certain evil. So if you’re saying, well, God just draws things to him or whatever, it’s like, no, like, like these all these other things need to happen. I was. I was. That’s not going to happen. So so you’re basically emphasizing the importance of freedom in this, like the freedom to go towards God or to go away from God. Well, that’s all we have. Yeah, I fully agree. That’s the only decision that we make on some fundamental level. Either we turn towards or turn away. Right. And then the question is, what is towards and what is away? And exactly. And that’s that’s the fundamental decision. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So giving into fear, whatever fear it is, can never lead to God. Isn’t the fear of God the beginning of wisdom? Beginning. Yeah, it’s a bootstrap. Like, that’s the way I look at it, at least. Like, like, like, there’s obviously. There’s obviously a way that being afraid is proper. Right. Yeah. But I don’t I don’t think this. That your relationship to God should be guided by fear. Like, I think I think that that is fundamentally wrong. And that’s a lack of faith. Like, I want to believe that badly what you’re saying. But for me, there’s just what’s screaming in my face is what you said a few minutes ago. The fear of God is beginning with the fear of God. So that’s just screaming in my face right now. Right. Yeah. Well, like, like, it’s it’s if you never turn towards him. You will never see, you will never hear. Right. I agree with that. Yeah. Well, that’s where the fear is important. Like, the fear is it’s more like a fear of not God, not the fear. Right. Like the fear of of being abandoned by God or losing his presence. Yeah, that would be hell. Yeah, that’s exactly that would be hell. Yeah. Like, yeah, that’s the way that I understand it. And that’s why I don’t think it it can hold. The relationship. Right. Because if you’re only going to God because you’re afraid of hell, like that’s transactional. Yes, I agree with that. But I’m fully with that. But in order to get connected to God, you come from a transactional framing effect. Right. So like that, that’s why I think it’s the bootstrap. So it’s just the first step. Right. I think it’s well, like it’s always going to be true. Right. Like if you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like hell is still there. But but but again, right, like when when you go to school, right, or whatever. Like when you go to a new situation, like you walk in and you’re like, oh, my God. Like, I don’t I don’t want them to get the wrong impression of me. I don’t want to do the wrong thing so that the teacher will get mad at me. And I get this reputation. Right. So like that’s natural reaction to engagement in a new space where. Where you well, like it’s that’s what Adam and Eve had. Right. Like they they they got naked in front of God. Right. And they felt their shame. Right. Like they had to cover themselves. Like sort of shame. Right. Of of realizing your sin. Right. Of of being exposed in front of God. And like, that’s a judgment. Like, that’s really harsh. Right. Like, yeah, it’s it’s it’s recognizing the hole that you’re in and it’s like, OK, I’m in this hole. And now what? Like, that sucks. And like, yeah, you should be scared. Like, holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. But that’s where you find humility, hopefully. You don’t have to. Hopefully. Yeah. Think I’m worried about this fear going out of control. So. Like when you were talking about it, I had this moment where there was this recognition and I recognized it as a healthy fear, so it’s like, whoa, like I’m here. And I’m kind of. I have this body and I need to impose order on it. Otherwise. Like, let’s just talk about the metaphorical version of hell, where like I’m in a state where I’m addicted to something or where I’m in poverty, that’s not metaphor. That’s real. I mean, yeah, OK, great. So so so so there is this realization that if I don’t impose order on my body, if I don’t act in a way that is in accordance with the way things are, that I’m going to decay, basically. Yeah, that for me is a healthy fear of God. And I don’t know if you think this is the fear of God. Oh, yeah, I think that is the fear. OK. And that’s fractally true, right? Yeah, like, like, like, there’s always when you look up, right, there’s always. Well, maybe not always like maybe you can get to a state where that’s not true anymore, but there’s going to be a long time. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I’d rather not think about that where you’re you’re always going to see something above you. Yeah, right. You’re like, oh, yeah, I’m not living up to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in some sense, you’re like you throw up your hands in the air and say, God, help me for I am a fragile creature that doesn’t know up from down. And like, I am not going to be able to do this alone. Right, right, right. And like if you if you’re if you’re going to take on that task by yourself, like, yeah, good luck. Like you might even get there, but like that. Right. Yeah. OK. So let’s say I don’t take this task on myself. Let’s say I do go walk this path of trust, right? Of faith, where just open up my arms, dear God, I have no idea what to do. Please help me. What’s my role there? What do I do? That’s the thing. That’s that’s. You can and you study the Bible, right? Like to to ground yourself, right? It’s like, OK, like, this is what it looks like. All right. Like, like, like, this is the discernment I need to have because you need you need you need the grounding. But here’s the thing. Here’s the question of religion comes in again. Like, why the Bible? Like for me, no, don’t use the Bible. Like, I’m not going to have this argument. Like, it’s like, OK, you cannot do it. And then you’re still stuck in your problem or you can just do it. Like, it’s up to you, dude. Like you can you can suffer in hell all you want. I’m not going to get you out of it. Like, that’s that’s all up to you. Yeah, I think that’s the problem again. That’s exactly why the three arguments. OK, they’re no longer three. The two arguments pop up like you have to choose a way and you just then have to try it and you see where it leads. And what I’m terrified of is that I get get stuck in a cycle of self-deception. So let’s say that’s right. Do you do you know what the road leads to? No, I don’t. OK, but like, do you know what the promise is? No. Well, I know what the promise of the road is, of course. Well, that’s a good question. I can’t stick to your promise. That’s a good question. That’s a good point. If it fulfills its promise, then that’s a measure that you’re going in the right way, if it doesn’t, then it’s a measure that it’s not going in the right way. That’s. Mm hmm. And like fair enough if you don’t understand the promise, right. But but it’s like the thing is the thing is with with. Here’s the thing. I think this is the reason why I’m terrified. It’s kind of particular about my understanding of this religion, that the promise may never be fulfilled, that you will see that you’re going in the right way. I have this idea that I may be stuck in this phase where I’m just unsure. And it’s only in heaven that I’ll be able to realize, oh, it’s only when I die that I’ll be able to find out and not anywhere during the road. Well, that’s I think there’s heaven on Earth for sure. Yeah, that’s on Earth, but in life, there’s your life. Yeah, there’s the heaven in your life. Exactly. And that’s the part I think that’s getting in the way that I think I might be stuck just forcing myself to follow something that I’m not sure of, where I don’t have any faith. I’m just stuck trying to trample over my doubts because I had that phase before several times and I’m worried about if I enter into a relationship with God through this, that this is going to happen, that I’m just going to be neutral about it the whole time. There’s going to be no sign that I’m going in the wrong way. There’s just going to be, oh, no, you just have to trust it. If you’re neutral, that’s a sign that you’re in the wrong way. That’s true. That’s true. Yeah. You cannot be neutral in a relationship like you’re betraying your relationship. Like that’s no, don’t do that. OK, I’m going to be honest with you. But thought popped up right now. I’m going to need to. This is this is kind of a decision that worries me that I’m just being. I’d rather not say this in public. It’s fine. I’d rather not say this in public. I can say it after the conversation. We can talk about make a note. Yeah, I’ll make a note. Yeah, so I think this. This issue is basically the most fundamental face again, right? Like I haven’t made a counter argument like so what? So what? Well, it’s like, OK, you’re in this dilemma. No. So what? Like, I’ll agree to you that you can’t solve it from where you’re standing. No, it’s not a so what for me. It’s no, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, listen, listen. You don’t you don’t realize what I’m saying. You cannot solve that problem from where you’re standing. And where am I standing exactly? What does it matter where you’re standing? It doesn’t matter where you’re standing. You might you might you might solve that problem in retrospect. But there’s no way to solve that problem by your now. Well, if I believe that it will be you, you can solve the problem in different ways. Well, the thing is, the argument that’s coming up for me right now is that you just need to submit. You just need to submit to something. Yeah. Right. Then the question like you could even choose like, oh, I’m animal sounds that he knows what he’s talking about, like maybe I should follow this guy who’s like he seems to be having his dogs in a row like you could do that. You could say, well, I don’t know. There’s there’s many arguments, but the main argument I would give to you is. You need to get out of where you’re at. Like you need to like it’s not enough. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. OK, then that’s that’s sufficient reason to commit to anything, because anything is better than where you’re at. Absolutely. I fully agree. OK, so then we can reduce the level of certainty that you need to have. Yeah, like, like, OK, I’m going to pick anyway. Exactly. I’m not I’m not going to have to convince myself whether what I’m picking is right. I just have to decide which one to pick. Exactly, exactly. And I’ve already picked, to be honest. I think I would pick then you are a hypocrite. You think so? Well, if you if you’ve already picked, you wouldn’t have this conversation. Well, I’ve picked and I’m trying. No, you haven’t. Like, you can’t you can’t make this argument towards me in a serious way. And I think you are serious. And say you have picked. Because if you if you pick, we would have had a different conversation, like it would have been a non-issue. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like like the issue would be, OK, I made this decision. Please help me, because I’m I don’t know what the first step is. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like if you pick you, you’d you’d you’d have the strength behind you to reject the yeah, I think, dude, I think, I think I picked it and I’m not even sure I want to pick it. So this is the part where I’d rather not talk about in public. We kind of touched on it. We’re kind of touching on the surface of it. But the thing is, well, that’s dumb, right? But doubt, doubt is always there. Like you don’t know, like it’s obvious you don’t want to pick because else you would have, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like all of these things are not a mystery to me. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s obviously the case. Yeah. So, so you you you’re asking the wrong questions because the questions that you’re asking, they’re not they’re not going to resolve it. Like, you’re not going to get an answer. That way. You’re going to get an answer if you participate. No, no, no, no, no, you you’re you’re going to get an answer. If you reject reason, right, and start listening. Ooh, that’s hard. That’s where the fear comes in. Yeah, like, yes, that’s reason protecting itself. Like, I this is what he talks about, but when relevance realization realizes that it’s irrelevant. Right. Yeah. Which is ridiculous. Right. It’s like, but right. It’s like, yes, reason is not the highest. Like, it’s just not like life is life is not about reason. Reason is what serves us, right. What serves life. And if it is not serving life, then it should be rejected because that’s evil. Like, it’s like, oh, I need to. Point that to good, right, and reject evil over whatever thought I have. Yeah. So I think we hit a really tough point here. This point with listening, listening to your heart, listening to where you’re being oriented. But it’s like, what is that even? Yeah, exactly. Like, like, like, I’m I’m getting glimpses of it, right. Like, I am fully saying I suck at it. OK, like, I like I’m not I’m not an attorney. Because you have because this is where passions get in the way. Right. Because when you’re listening, you’ve suspended. It’s not a passion thing for me. OK, at all. I am not having much trouble with my passions at all. I am having trouble with listening. It’s an attention thing. It’s like, yeah, like, what’s even going on thing? It’s it’s it’s completely different than. But it’s like, like when I when I started thinking about it, like, what is listening even? Like, like, what does it mean to listen? Well, listen means that this there’s an external imposition. Yeah, it’s it’s a call to arms, right? It is a calling. Yeah, it’s calling you forth. It’s like it’s it’s preceding attention. Yep. It’s like, oh, like, how do I let my attention be guided? Like, like, I know how to guide my attention, right? Like that seeing. How do I let my attention be guided? I was like, because you can’t be indiscriminate, right? Like, I can I can go into the same rabbit hole that you’re stuck in. It’s like, well, how do I know that I make the right decision? Blah, blah, blah. Right. Like, because like that that’s true there, too. Like that fractal layer has the same problems. All right. Like, like, you’re never going to escape that. And it’s like, well, am I going to be capable of taking responsibility for that? Like, I know that I’m lacking, but I’m OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean now. I know exactly. Yeah, that hits the spot. Yeah. OK. Yeah, we can’t take responsibility for that because we ultimately can’t know whether or not the decision is wrong or right. And we just need to listen and go with that. Right. And like, I think I really need to process this. But this goes back to the idea of authority, right? Yeah, you cannot be an authority. Yeah, yeah, like, it’s not optional because authority references something. Yeah, right. So now you have to take something else. Yeah. And pull it through you to look at the thing that you don’t know what it is. And it’s like, yes, yes, yeah. Well, it’s clear what I. Hmm. Go ahead, go ahead. Well, but if there’s someone else. That has participation in that being. Like, they’re an authority. And I’ve been running into this issue is like, yeah, why should why should we listen to you, Manu? Like, like, what makes you an authority? It’s like, well, you can listen to me, right? Or you cannot. Like, then don’t. Yeah. But if you’re not listening, who are you going to listen to? Like, how do you know that the person that you’re listening to is actually helping you and pointing you to what? Like the only the only. Right. Like the reason to listen to a person is because they speak with authority. Yes. And like, how do you know that? You need to trust. You need to have faith in that. Well, otherwise, if you can’t see it, there’s no other way you can be compelled by what they’re saying. If they’re just you have to submit, you have to submit exactly. What I mean, that’s not trust. Right. Like, like trust is a consequence of participation in being. Right. So you can trust me because you recognize that the way that I’m doing things is resonating within you, right? So I’m participating in the same being as you, at least as far as you can see. Right. And that’s what grants me trust. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I’m just look, I’m just realizing right now that I think I have a problem with the notion of submission. In that extent, like when you when you said you said earlier that you’re being a hypocrite, I think you were right. I was being because I’m just noticing right now that I have a lot of difficulty with this submitting completely to a tradition that is outside of me. And I think you’re right about that. I do have that problem. Yeah. You said to me, well, effectively, you said the way that I see you is as an authority that I should submit to. So I’m fully submitting to you. And I’m like, that’s not a thing that you can do. Well, yeah, like you’re not submitting to me. Exactly. If you think what was happening, what was happening, I think what was happening in that in that situation was the people, people pleasing complex. That’s where it was so dissonant because the people pleasing complex is that, OK, I’m going if I can submit to him and I think I should submit to him, that at least I can do is act like it or feel like it. But then when I’m done with the conversation, I’m just completely somewhat different. And I think what was going on was that this fear, this is exactly what this fear triggers me to do. It fears me to act like I’m not. You know what I mean? And I think this is why this is where the problem with fear comes in that. This is why I was very happy when you said your relationship with God should be based on fear, because this fear is what’s kind of impulsively triggers me to just act in ways which I’m not. So two talks ago, I wouldn’t have been able to say this stuff. It took a lot of training to trust myself enough to just say what I’m thinking right now, say what I’m honestly feeling and thinking. This is exactly it. And so I think that I have a huge problem with radical submission to a tradition that is not with me, especially, especially when I’m reading the parts where my mind and my heart is just saying no. Like, for example, for example, let’s take take the Islamic way, take Islam. When I read, for example, that some scholars say that music is not allowed for you, and when I read scholars that say that you’re not supposed to have men and women learn in the same class. It’s like, no, no, because because from experiences I’ve had, that’s like this doesn’t work this way, you know. And then I look to Christianity, which looks like. I’m going to say open minded. I know it’s the wrong word to talk about religion, but it’s just the word that’s coming to mind, like most of it resonates with what I think. But that’s mostly because I was raised in a Christian environment. But then you read stuff like. People who don’t believe go to hell. And that’s again like, no. That’s like that’s true. That’s the thing that’s the so that’s from your frame. That’s true from your people that don’t hear God are in hell. Like they don’t go. That’s true. I agree with that from personal experience. I agree with that. But I mean, I mean, the literal version of how where after you die, you go there eternally. That’s what I meant. Yeah. But if you die in hell, like how are you ever going to get out? So this is this this this this part. I don’t know what to say about. I just don’t know what to say about it. I’m not OK, but then stop worrying if you don’t know. Like, hey, yeah, you’re right. I should stop worrying. But then there comes the fear of the bootstrapping, right? No, that’s not the bootstrapping. That’s different for you. Yeah, that’s the just in case fear I have. Right. But that’s FOMO, right? It’s this fear of missing out. Exactly. It is fear of missing out. Yeah, it is. It’s like, yeah, but but but haven’t do like heaven. Don’t don’t worry about hell like heaven. Worry about heaven. Yeah. Like, like, like, why are you interested in hell? Like, like, you’re going to go to heaven, right? Like, that’s your commitment. Like, why are you worried about hell? Like, are you like that? That’s hypocrisy as well. It’s like, oh, I’m going to go on this path and I’m going to presume that I’m not going to make it. But like, I’m going to go on this path. That’s a good that’s a really good point, actually. A different way of thinking about it. If I’m honest with you, I don’t like thinking of it in terms of afterlife heaven. Yeah, don’t don’t think about it in terms of this life heaven, like heaven, where you know, but but but like whatever version of afterlife heaven is dependent on this life heaven, so like, like worry about this life heaven. I am with that completely. That completely resonates with what I’ve experienced with everything. Yeah, I think one of the problems why I have problems submitting is precisely because of this, because this just in case reaction that I get where I don’t authentically believe in something, but somehow force myself to conform to it. You know, because of the fears, because of the so just in case I’m going to believe this, this, this, this, this and that. And then I’m then I’m carrying with me all of these beliefs which are not grounded and which I’m just carrying them and conforming myself just in case. And you can imagine how difficult it is when you’re doing everything just in case. Right. Like Pascal’s wager, but on an existential level. Yeah, but it’s also hypocritical. Exactly. You can’t do everything right. And, you know, you know, here’s the thing. I never recognized this as hypocritical because my whole life, if you see, if you see how Lebanese society works, like the Lebanese society functions on appearances, people love appearing good in Lebanese societies. So, so you maybe maybe I’m projecting, maybe I’m generalizing. But the point is, no, but you are you definitely are projecting because how would you be able to recognize the difference? Like, like what what is the basis upon which you are able to distinguish authenticity from hypocrisy? So. No, I have to say I’m not fully projecting here. I’m projecting on a social level, but not on a level of certain people. So sometimes you talk to people and you see the way they talk. Yeah, like, but that’s everywhere. Right. Like, yeah, that’s what I meant. That’s what I meant. If you go live in that society, you see a lot of synthetic ways of talking. Like you hear the same, you know, formalities, formalities. But yeah, but but formalities aren’t wrong. Because you don’t know what type of participation that person has with that formality. Yeah, yeah, you have a point with that. Yeah, that’s true. And the fact that you’re incapable of having the participation that they’re happy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s that’s why I’m asking you, like, how would you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can tell you, you can know them by their fruits, kind of. Right. Like not even. Well, here’s the thing. It happens with politicians, at least. At the very least in the. Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe, but even but no, but like, I think a lot of politicians are just stupid. Yeah, I like I think that what’s what’s Cortez, right? OK, whatever. I have no idea. The crazy American chick, right? Like, I believe that she’s probably authentic, right? Like a lot of these climate not facts, right? They’re authentic, at least in the sense that they fully believe what they’re doing, completely misguided, but they they fully believe what they’re doing. Yeah. And they’re living in the same fear that you’re. So but they’re living. It’s like, yeah, they just they just contextualize it differently because they they have a completely different way of framing the world. It’s like, oh, if I don’t have the saving lamps on in my cellar light, right, then I’m I’m a sinner, like, like I need I need to I need to get the saving light and then like not realizing that the fact that they never turn on the light, right, means that it’s better to live in whatever wasting light is there than to to change it because of the manufacturing costs and something like like stuff like that. It’s driven by fear, like this is not rational stuff that like, yeah. And and it’s like, well, if you’re driven by fear, you’re going to do stupid stuff. Yeah. Like, like, like Peterson said something, right? Like, if if you are afraid of climate change actually happening, you should not be allowed to make policy for it. And I’m like, well, that’s actually a legit rule. Like, so don’t be afraid of climate change. Care about a better climate. Right. Like, like it’s not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and heaven is is not climate, right. It’s society, blah, blah, blah. Like it’s interconnected. Yeah. I think this is making things very, very, very helpful. This is very helpful. This is very helpful. Like just reframe the reframe everything and not make it fear based. Make it love based. Like you’re seeking because you love God, not because you are afraid of hell. Well, well, or you want to love God. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You want to love God. You want to do what is good. You’re yearning, right? Like, there’s I guess like there’s maybe an arrows love. Yeah. Yeah. It’s an arrow. I’d say it’s an arrow. Yeah, it’s definitely an arrow. Yeah. And and that love can change, right? Like the the quality of that relationship can change. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s a matter of intimacy, right? Like now we get into the intimacy crisis. Like if you like I made the point yesterday, like if you have daddy issues, right, and God is the father. Yeah, it’s a problem. Like you’re going to have to humiliate yourself. Right. Yeah. All all the all the mechanisms that you erected to save yourself from the lack of fatherhood are the same mechanisms that are going to prevent you from relating to God as a father. Like, because that’s negative, they’re in that hole. That’s a negative way of seeing it, because somebody who has daddy issues yearns to have a good father. Yeah, but but no, it’s not a negative. It’s a necessary. It’s necessary, but not sufficient. There needs to be the other part. But sorry, go on, go on. I’m being defensive because I know someone with this. No, no, no. You. You have the yearning, but you don’t have the intimacy. Right. And and here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. Just go on, go on. I’ll mention it later. Sorry. Well, so you you need to compensate. Right. And the compensation has been built. Well, unless you maybe got raised in the faith and you never got into this problem, right. Like that might be a way. But but you you have had to have had self reliance. Right. And you need to unreli. Right. So if we’re talking about faith, like the falling, right, the letting go of the preconception and trusting that you’re like, well, good luck. Like, this is a thing that you’ve built from childhood. Right. Like this is this is a thing that is fundamental to your identity, to your way of being. And now you have to let it go. That’s a by the way, for somebody with daddy issues, that’s an extremely difficult thing to do. Yeah. And it’s like you said, it means you have to humiliate yourself. Yes. There are many situations. Yeah. You got to you got to decide all the way so that you can go up again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s what prayer is. Right. Like prayer is in some sense like going down as deep as you can get so that you can get re well, not not be erected, but you get get drawn up again. Right. In but but you’re informed differently. Yeah. This Tower of Babel thing is helpful. Yeah, I think I’m not so sure if this is a good decision. It’s kind of a decision that feels good. When the decision feels good, I’m really skeptical. I think I need to continue. Well, that’s important. Right. So like I had the same thing. So what was I was having a bad day and I was late for sports. Right. And I was just like enduring my day and I didn’t even realize that I had to go. And they called me and I was like, oh, crap. Right. And then I was like, just get out there and participate. Right. And I went really well. And I was like, this is not in my expectations. Yeah. And then I was I was going back and I I had the realization like I can stay outside. Like I can try and use the spirit. And then I’m like, yeah, but then I’m. I’m testing God in some sense. Right. Like I’m I’m I’m challenging fate. Right. It’s like, well, if I if I keep going in the spirit, like I’m going to I’m going to have the the snapback right from from the elastic that I’ve been pulling, right, like I pulled it too far. Right. And then. I decided to go home and rest at home. And I was like, is that the right decision? Like, I like. I’ve thought about this in my past, the sermon about like, like, are you really committed to the faith? Right. Like, like what? Do I react to God’s call the way that I reacted to the call of my friend that I wasn’t there? That it just got out out of my room and just went there. Out of my room and just went there. Consequences be damned. Like, do I have the same conviction? Like, no way. Like, like, I wish I could do that in relation to God. Like, I’m not there at all. Like, not even close. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like, like, how do you get there? Like, because I believe you can. Like, yeah. But you need to start from where you are. Yeah. And that’s so basically what you said is that you were not able to make the sacrifice. Well, I know I got I got stuck, right? Like, like you got stuck, right? Like, well, first of all, right, like I wasn’t I wasn’t able to know what I should do. Right. So I didn’t have a vision. Yeah. Yeah. I got thrown in the situation. And in some some framing, you could say I was scared. Right. Now, I would argue that I’m I’m not scared. But I was severely demotivated. Right. And so, yeah, like the apathy or the depression, like, like I was depressed. Like that that would be a better framing than scared. Right. And maybe I’m scared of the depression. Right. Like that might have been a fair framing. Right. Right. So so that’s like a meta scare. Right. So I’m not scared of whatever I’m doing. I’m scared of the implications of what I’m doing. Like that that’s kind of resonating, I think, with your fear. Right. Like it’s. It’s. It’s taking a responsibility on a level where I can’t. Mm hmm. It’s like I like I don’t know whether that’s the right decision or not. And that’s why I believe. Right. And like, I still need to integrate this belief because that was a realization that I had today is like the belief that I should go home. Right. And in essence, avoid failure. Is wrong. Not because I’m wrong with the analysis. Right. But it’s wrong because it’s unhealthy for my spirit. Mm hmm. Like I I gave in. In a place where I could have not given it. Yeah, I have that. Yeah, I have these these moments a lot. Right. And it’s like, well, that’s I need I need to start privileging. What my authenticity? Absolutely. Exactly. That was exactly the word I had in mind. Yes. And if we’re talking about calling, right, like that’s probably me hearing a call and not responding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s like, well, why am I doing that? Right. And yeah. And it’s like, well, if you keep doing that, right, you just ignore the call. Like you start building these defenses, right? Like, because like that, that doesn’t feel good. Because now I’m kind of charged, right? It’s like, oh, I’m the person that that ignores the call. Like, that’s not a way that I want to think about myself. It’s way better to think about myself as, oh, I did the right thing because I was protecting myself. Mm hmm. Yeah. These situations need a lot of self honesty. Well, but it’s not even honesty, right? Because, like, it’s. Do I even have the capacity to think of myself in that way? Wow. OK, OK, OK, OK, OK. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you even able to do that? Yeah, right. That’s that’s the grace, right? It’s like, oh, my God, that’s a revelation. And like, I struggled with that, with that thing in the moment. But I had to hear this here, the sermon in church to recontextualize it. And after that, I had to speak to you and I had to be forced to use it as an example to, yeah, in some level. And I’m still not truly facing it, right? Thanks. So you see, you see the problem with that, right? Because because the implications of. Me shifting that decision point are so vast. Yeah, yeah. And so it’s better for me to not even engage in facing that. Yeah, but that’s not right, right? Like, that’s not good. Yeah. So it’s like it’s a better. In the sense that it doesn’t bother me, right? Like, it’s so big, because if you say it to yourself, there’s going to be a lot of friction, there’s going to be a lot of weight, weight that you can’t handle right now as you are, so you need to frame it in that other way so that by the time you’re ready, you can switch the frame again. Right. But also, if we’re going back to the metaphor of calling and hearing, right, I need to go through what I’m going through now to when that opportunity arises again. To be able to have something to call upon, which is interesting again, right? Like now I call upon something. I call it towards me to make the other decision. Right. So something outside of me, right? Like, because I don’t identify with that. Like, that’s not me. Like, like the me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to find it authentically in you so you can respond with all of your being when the call comes. Right. And at a certain point, like this is what I truly believe, right? When I respond to the calling, yeah, and the food will be there. Yeah. I will be the being that’s going to say, why would I go to my home? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You aspire to be that person. You aspire to be the person who responds to the calling. Right. And then it’s like, well, do I believe that I can be that person? Right. And I can just give you like 15 pages with reasons why that is a bad idea. Right. Like, that’s really easy. But like, I’m not going to engage with all of those reasons, because that’s not the question. Yeah. And if I’m going to make that question, I’m going to see it ground. Right. And I’m going to lose as a consequence of seeding the ground. So I have to not see the ground. And that’s having faith. Like, it’s like, oh, I can I can open this box. I can open Pandora’s box. Right. Like, and and and have all these arguments. And like, I’m really good at making arguments. Right. Yeah. Like, I’ll be able to make arguments that other people can’t refuse. Like, OK. And then, like, I made an argument that you can’t refuse. It’s like, like, there’s no transformation happening there. Doesn’t change anything about your being. Just adds another. Well, no, it does change. Right. Like it affirms. Right. I’m affirming that I’m the being that’s going to make arguments to stop myself from participation in the world. That’s that’s what that does. That’s self-deception. You you you can frame it. I wouldn’t frame it like that. Because, like, I am really that being. Right. No, I mean, if you if you abuse that, if you abuse that. But I’m not I’m not doing that. Right. Like, that’s happening. Ah, OK. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Right. Like, that’s what I meant. But I’m really that being right. So I need to I need to find a power, a higher power that that can call me to not be that being. And and and and to go back to fate, right, like, like, that’s that’s what I was talking about, so I already have generated the capacity to reject getting into the internal argument, right, because I I can see, right. I have eyes to see. Yeah. That going into that argument is wrong. Yeah. But I I haven’t generated the capacity to respond to the calling. Because I cannot. Generate the conviction in myself, right. And then and then it’s like, OK, like, what is the source of your conviction? Well, that’s fate. Right. And then it’s like, like, what is the source of fate? Right. Like, and this is well, this is one of my weaknesses. Right. Like, I I should just do it because I’m called. Right. Like, why do I need a reason for me to listen to what I’m called to do? That’s just me. Refusing to submit. Right. But like, unfortunately, I got myself into a place where that is the person that I am. Like, like, like, I have a problem with submitting. Right. And I can’t direct that with intentionally doing that. Right. So I’m saying, like, when I see an opportunity to submit, like, I’m like, OK, now I can practice my submit. Like, I’m just going to do that. Are you sure that you’re a person who has a problem with submitting? I don’t see that. Like, why would it? Why? Why didn’t I listen to that call? Well, you have you are listening to many other calls, aren’t you? Well, yeah, but not enough to fix my life. What fix your life in one way? Well, like, I have a bunch of problems in my life. Right. OK. And I am convinced that I am contributing to them. OK. Right. Now, the question is, how much am I contributing? Yeah. And in what way? Like, that’s that’s where I have left because I I have made tons of improvements. Right. Yeah. But it’s it’s it’s. Like, it has a lot to do with the spirit. Right. So when we were talking earlier, I was talking about that you can generate like the spirit in yourself, but you can wind yourself up. I have a lack of energy. Right. I have a really, really hard time of getting into a spirit unless I’m with other people. Right. And so you can say, well, yeah, in some sense, you. You can submit to like I can submit to other people really well in some ways. Right. Like only in certain ways. Right. And I can participate in the spirit really well. But I can’t participate. It in a self generated spirit. Like, like it just feels foolish to me. Right. Like the purpose isn’t there. Right. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That there is no there is no external coherence that draws you out. If it’s just from you, then it’s worthless. Right. It’s just from you that it’s not worth doing. So your body doesn’t generate the energy to do it. By the way, I resonate so much with that so much. Yeah, right. And I like this, like this is why men need women like that. Like because it’s the external purpose that draws you out and then you have something to keep you keep you out there, because if you’re if there’s nothing that’s keeping you out there, you’re stuck in an inner hell of your own thoughts and your own right, your own work. And I am convinced that God can fulfill that role as well. But like I’m well, this is why I kind of went into the fatherhood thing. Right. Like, like, like if you if you don’t attune in certain ways from childhood, like even seeing the possibility, right, like, like, for example, like I. I lost my visual thinking. I think as a consequence of having inflammation in my brain, but I’m I got that back after meditation and stuff like in some sense. Also, but I’m still not really doing it right. But I can get into that. Like it becomes accessible again. And it’s like. That is a constraint. Hmm. Right. Like that means that I wouldn’t say that the things that aren’t possible for me, but they’re hard to attain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that that handicap, right, like that, that just interferes with certain types of relationships, right. Like everybody has handicaps like that on whatever level. Right. Like I’m not complaining in that sense. But I’m just pointing out that like, like there’s there’s things that are possible that I don’t conceive as possible. Right. And that means that they’re not integrated. Right. And that means that the relationship that I have is is in some sense not whole. Now, is that a problem? Like, like, I don’t really think so because I think I can fulfill a role within my capacity, but without having to generate much more capabilities. Right. Apart from the fact that I’m well, I’m still wrestling with a bunch of physical things. Right. So what am I saying? Well, it’s it’s the constraints and how do you get access to them? Right. And like this is why I was talking about worship, gratitude, honoring, right. Like all of these these things. They they were alien for me like two years ago. Right. Like I I watched the series, right. And I see these people bow to the king or whatever. Right. If you asked me to do that, I would have looked at you like you’re crazy. Right. And now, like, I still have problems doing that. But like now I I know what I’m participating in. Right. Like like there’s there’s there’s a knowledge of of the being and thereby. It’s justification, the right word, probably not. Like it has a place, right? I mean, I mean, it’s almost like you know the significance of what it does for you. And it has meaning. There you go. It has meaning. It has been. Yeah, it’s it’s motivating to go after it, to aspire towards it at least. Right. And it’s an option. Like, yeah, it’s it’s thinkable. It wasn’t an option. Yeah, it was unthinkable. Now it’s thinkable. Right. Now it’s a way of being. It’s a way of going. It’s the right. And I think that’s the importance, right? Like it’s like if you have all of these things in your life that. Are not an option. Like, what are you doing? Mm hmm. It’s like, yeah, you’re missing out on so much of the world. And then you’re trying to judge whether this path is right or that path is right. Like, who do you think you are? Like, you don’t know. You don’t know squat like like there’s so much participation that you’re missing. And like even with having that participation, like how are you going to make a judgment? Mm hmm. How are you even going to make a judgment that you understood what this thing is talking about? Right. I think that’s that’s a barrier that in addition to making a judgment of truth and falsehood, I also make a judgment of what it is about, you know. So I just what? Yeah, well, that’s a sin that yeah, yeah, that’s going to keep you locked forever. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because now you’ve got a preconceived notion of reality. Yeah. And you’re just going to seek out your preconception. Exactly. Good luck. I think that what’s really taught me, first of all, first of all, I really appreciate that you shared your personal experience on this, especially like you shared some really deep stuff there, some some stuff about the visual thinking. And I think you can definitely, I mean. I think you can definitely manage to get back the visual thinking and. But I don’t know if I should want to. Yeah, yeah. I mean, still, but I still really appreciate that you shared all these things and that you shared about. Let me it it sort of I really felt connected to you there because I feel like we’ve had a lot of similar experiences in regards to depression, this feeling like that you can’t function on your own, you can’t make self-imposed projects. The project has to be imposed from an authority. And the fact that you had problems with submission kind of shocked me because I actually the image I have, I think I’ve idealized you a little bit and it’s it’s it’s sort of. Yeah, it might. It might be true that I I captured that spirit. Right. But why did I capture that spirit? Because I talked about. Community, yeah, well, like your relationship with God, like, like all of these things and it’s and about the problems of society. Right. Like I’m I’m one of those problems, right? All of us are. Well, no, no, but I’m like I’m a child of that. Yeah, yeah, right. So like it’s it’s it’s personal in a sense. Like, yeah, I’m I’m looking for for what’s wrong with society so that I can see what I’m doing wrong. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like like, well, the problem of submission is really obvious. Right. Like I don’t want to submit to anything in society. Like, holy cow, like it’s a mess. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t I don’t trust it for one bit. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Although I am sure that there’s tons of wonderful people out there. Right. Yeah, there’s still mopeds like, like. Yeah. And they are mopeds. Yeah. And that’s fine. Like, that’s not even a problem. Right. But it is a problem because I can’t relate to them. Right. Like, that’s my problem. Right. So, so well, what does what does that do to me? Well, like, well, not to me, to almost everybody. They’re like, well, I’m going to be an individual. Right. Like, I’m going to make sure that I don’t have to rely on these people. Right. And well, maybe the blessing that I had is that I failed in relying on myself. Right. And that failure in self-reliance humiliated me so that I found a way of re-engagement. Right. Like, that was really costly. Right. Like, that was not like that was not cheaply earned. But. But yeah, like, in some sense, I’m better off than all these people who are stuck because, like, yeah, like when they’re going to hit their wall, like, I don’t know what to say. Right. But yeah, like, like the submission, like, I just realized the necessity of it. Right. And I talk to people and I when you start looking at the world to submission and its importance and then you see the ways in which people fail to live up to that and it’s like, holy cow. Right. And I was like, I don’t want to be a part of that. Like, no. Right. But then, right. Then am I properly submitting now? No. Like, I know that there’s ways in which I’m not submitting in the church. Right. And it’s like. Should I try harder? Probably. Is that the most important thing to do for me right now? Well, I’ve been arguing to myself, no, because there’s other things that I could spend my energy in over submitting. But then I have to do it. Right. And then we get into the problem again. Right. Like self motivation. Right. Like what worked for me was doing the meditation series on awakening from the mini crisis. Yeah. Right. Like that same year. That gave me an external motivating purpose. And like I kind of did it on self discipline, but that was harder. And then it collapsed. Right. And then it’s collapsed. Like, that’s the problem. Same story. It doesn’t it doesn’t regenerate. Like, there’s no regenerative principle that. And this is why when I come down the path, right. And whether I should decide to go out and try and use that spirit that I’m in. Or go back in, I pick going back in because if I destroy what I’ve built, then how is it going to be rebuilt? Exactly. It’s going to take it’s going to take a lot of effort to be able to. Because personally, I remember how hard it was to build it to begin with. And I don’t want to go through that again or the hell I was in before it was built. And I don’t want to go back there again. That’s enough of a motivator to keep it up. It’s crazy how similar this is. I think we kind of both suffer from depression in a certain sense, because it’s very important to keep moving, because if you don’t just think. And that’s why you need that either discipline or external motivator or some authority that keeps you built together and submission is the way. And I don’t know if you agree with this, but I think there’s going to be at some point a dialectic between the resistance and the submission itself. And there’s there’s going to be a place to situate this inability to submit. But. No, no, no, no, no. I like this is the way that I see the good, it’s like an overwhelming force. Right. It’s like it’s like a magnet. Right. Like when when you get into the space of attraction, you get an acceleration and then you latch on. Yeah. Yes. And I. It’s stuck. That’s how you see it. Yes, that’s not how I see it. And that’s I think that means I have the wrong idea of it, because the way I’m seeing good is as going up a mountain that gets steeper and steeper the more you go. No, but no, see that that’s the problem. The problem is, right. The mountain doesn’t get steeper. It gets bigger. Right. You realize that there’s more. Right. Yeah. And so the steepness that you’re experiencing is the weight of the task. Right. But but why is the task heavy? Because your lack of faith. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s true. And so your conception is a consequence of of your relationship. Right. And this is this is why I have this full conviction about the good, because I’ve I realized the power of relationship. Right. Like I have. Taste it. The intimacy. That is possible. Right. And for example, right, like the fact that I can frame my experience on on on the bicycle this way is because. I can realize the qualities of the relationships that I’m having in the moment. Right. And so when you start relating to the qualities of your relationship, then you you can well, you can say, right, like, oh, if I would just listen to the calling. Right. Like an even to think of of of. Well, there’s two options, right. To to frame one of them as a calling and to be good for your spirit. Like, what’s my justification for that? Well, well, nothing really except that it’s in conflict with who I am right now. Right. So so I’m choosing that which is in conflict with the status quo over myself. In faith. That that is the thing that is going to be redeeming me from the status quo. But you have to have that discernment, right. Or you or you have to have the capacity to just listen. But like, like, I’m I’m missing that capacity completely. Right. And I think I think that’s also in some sense a lack of intimacy. Right. Or trust or whatever. Right. And I’m like, hell, yeah, well, my trust has been destroyed completely as a consequence of of of my depression. Right. Like, like I tried to try to try. And then I feel like, yeah, you shouldn’t have any trust. But yeah, as a consequence of your depression, so you’re acknowledging it as something that is beyond your control. No, it’s not because I’m no longer there. Ah, OK. But it is a score there, but but it’s not beyond my capability to resolve. OK, right. Like, I don’t I don’t like I didn’t choose to get where I’m at. Right. Like, I just ended up here. Yeah. Like, so so I didn’t control that for sure. But I I did something right. And the something was different than the stuff I did before that, because the stuff I did before that didn’t. It doesn’t even come close to where I’m at now. Like I like there’s so many ways in which the way that I am was inconceivable. Like I cannot even empathize with the state that I was in. Like I would I would I would not be able to describe how that felt. OK, completely detached from it. You’re not right. Alien to you right now. Yes. Yeah. But that’s I know things can get better for me still. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you mean. But that’s that’s a pretty incredible transformation in this case, I think. Yeah, yeah, that’s good. And that doesn’t mean that I escaped all the traps. Yeah, there’s that’s that’s the problem. But sometimes it comes back. Yeah, but in a different form, right. And a weaker form. Yeah. Different, different, different. Was different. I agree with the phrase weaker, too. Yeah, I don’t I don’t know whether that is a given. Right. Yeah. You so far weaker. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it’s weaker. Sometimes it’s not. I think it’s every time I tell myself that, OK, you’ve made it so far. You’ve made it so far. This is never going to be the case anymore. Then something happens. It’s like, OK, I never thought I’d feel like this again. But here I am again. But then you’ve had the tools, you’ve learned a lot and you know how to deal with it better. So. Yeah, yeah, like I have a different attitude towards it. You know, well, I I’ve I’ve had really distressing moments where I was walking around my room and I just felt like I want to kill myself. Right. Wow. OK, that’s intendable. And for like half a second. Yeah. Right. And then it’s gone. And I’m like, yeah. What what? Like what happened? What just happened? Yeah. Like like where where did that come from and where did that go? Right. It’s like, but it’s amazing that it went away. Right. It’s also amazing that it was that short. It’s also amazing that I didn’t get trapped by. Worry about it. Right. It wasn’t like, oh, my God, like now I want to kill myself. But like you can get in this anxiety spiral that just drags you back up. It’s like, how do I have that resistance? Well, that’s fate. Like, like, I believe that whatever that was, was bad and stupid. Yeah. I was like, I’m not going to engage with that. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You just have this discernment that this is just to be kept aside and that then it doesn’t get you trapped in it. It’s not something that occupies you all the time because it’s just OK. It goes there. And sometimes you do get trapped. Right. Yeah. Like sometimes you just have an emotion. It’s like it doesn’t want to go away. Like that happens. Like I sometimes get angry and well, sometimes I get frustrated. And I’m like, like I got into this experience. Like, like, how did how the hell did I get up and up here? Like, like, I didn’t do anything wrong. Right. And still, like, and it’s like, what what contributed to me getting into this place? Right. And it’s like. Yeah. Like, like sometimes it’s really, really disconcerting. It’s like, OK, like, like. I can’t rely on the world to respond. In. Well, like you said, you’re projecting upon me. Right. And then, well, you have a positive image of me. Right. But you still. Incentivize to manipulate me. Right. Like if you have a negative image of me. Like, what would you do then? Right. It’s like, oh, man, this guy tells me I’m a hypocrite. Right. What would I do in this case? Well, it was it was a rhetorical question, right? But yeah, yeah, I’m trying to process it. Yeah, I know what you mean, but. Well, that’s most people. Yeah, yeah. It’s really greatly influences how you’re interacting with the world. And well, yeah, I’m I’m I’m speaking a lot, but when that’s partially the reason that I got the press is like, like all of these people, they. An act is behavior and it doesn’t make sense to me at all. And I’m like. Like, I was so confused. I like I don’t I don’t know what to participate in. I don’t like I don’t I don’t know up from down. Like, I don’t I don’t like what is meaningful. Like it like. I’m I’m just doing this, but I’m an unguided projectile. Right. And I can get myself. I can get my act together like a little bit. Right. And then. Participate in the slipstream of of of what I where I’m at. But that’s all I can do. You must have felt cut off by that. Yeah, but but I well, but but I was my response was independence. Right. It’s like, yeah, you just do you and I’ll do me. And then the question is, well, what is me? Yeah, that’s where you get a chaos. That’s there is no me. There’s only chaos in there, which it’s where you need an organizing principle to do you begin with. Right. And the organizing principle was always provided by society. Yeah. Right. And then it’s like, well, if you take that away, like what happens when you get depressed? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You take away your participation. Yeah. And then you degenerate. Yes, you degenerate. You lose your capacity to participate. And like, that’s where I’m at. Like I am literally recultivating my capacity to participate because it was completely destroyed. Yeah. And that’s why why I’m online talking to people because like that’s that’s my means back into participation. But that’s beautiful. Like you’re using you’re using this as a way to to remember what it’s like to be intimate with other people. Well, it’s not no, it’s not even when there’s nothing to remember. Like this is what I’m this is the divorce that the dad that’s not there. Right. Like, like there’s nothing to remember. Like, like it wasn’t even there to begin with for you. Right. Like you never had it. And this is this is this is society. So you’re learning. Yeah. Yeah. We’re all children. We’re all. Stopped cognitively at 10 years old or something. Whatever. And we’re just 10 years old with a lot of knowledge. Right. Because like we consume so much knowledge and we have so much agency. Right. Like we’re strong. We have money. Right. Like and we’re trying to live in the world together. I was like, you can’t you can’t live up in the world as 10 year olds. Like, yeah, that’s not an option. Like, yeah, you have to become an adult. You have to grow. And it’s like, what is it being an adult? Well, being an adult is binding yourself. Yes. It’s losing yourself. Well, let’s let’s phrase it in a way that people can understand. It’s not technically binding yourself. It’s more like. Conforming to the way things really are. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it’s finding yourself. OK, because the binding is the thing that drags you out of you. Yeah, like if I have a pastor and I accept his authority, then he’s he’s going to say, well, are you really a good Christian? And I’m like. Yeah, you’re right. Like, I’m not. I’m falling short in so many ways and. I make excuses for the ways that I fall short. Like, yes. But I like, am I going to tell that to myself? No, like, why would I ever do that? Like, there’s no reason for me to tell that to myself. Well, no, I don’t agree. Some people have cultivated that. Well, why did why did they cultivate that? Because that’s how they were used to being raised. You mean they were probably raised in a society that questions them very. So they’ve they’ve they’ve internalized this voice. Exactly. They’ve internalized this voice. But still, right, like you need something to recharge it. Right. And like is is is the is the internalization as complete as the external manifestation? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah. So the binding yourself part is basically exactly what you have marriage, right. And even more profound than marriage children, especially for women. Right. Like like women have a different relationship to that. Right. Because for women, it’s more natural. Right. Just just the fact that they’re physically like dependent on the man in in the terms of safety. Right. It just means that the way that you view social relationships, right, is like, no, like like I need safety from my social engagement. Right. Like that’s that’s part of why I’m there. Right. Is is to feel safe. And a man doesn’t have that as much. Like he just goes out into the woods and does whatever he wants. Right. Like like courage is is is a distinct masculine quality. Right. And so the what it means for a man to submit. Like. That is completely different. And like, well, how do I make you submit? Well, if I’m stronger, right, like if I’m physically right, that’s that’s my means. Well, maybe if we are valuing intellectual stuff high, I can I can make an argument that makes you dizzy and then I can make you submit that way. Right. Yeah. But but you can reject that really easy. And you can just resort to force and say, well, screw you, because I don’t agree, like I don’t I don’t care what kind of argument you make, like I’m just still going to bash your face. And you’ve got to have to deal with that. Right. And this this again, right. Like, like reason is great. But it’s also a fantasy because like. Someone could choose to ignore your reasons and bash your face. That’s OK. Here’s the part where I think you’ve misunderstood what John meant by reason, but I’m not going to get into that right now. OK, I think we’re going to get into it. I’m my time. But I go ahead. I get I’m not using John’s definition of reason because I don’t think it’s real. So, yeah, like, that’s the problem. Like, I get that John, like, wants to include all this other stuff. But like, first of all, we have other words for the stuff that includes other stuff. So like, why don’t we use those words? And also, no. Yeah, but like, like he’s he he wants to integrate the is or gap into a word, right? And then pretending that it’s not existent because it’s hidden in the word and it’s like. You don’t get to make that move just because you want to like you don’t like the is or gap. It’s like, what are you what are you doing? Like, no, anyway, whatever. And I’m not familiar with the is or gap. I need to go back to that. But yeah, this is this whole separate discussion. That’s the reason. But yeah. Well, so like the. The point I was making was the distinction between men and women and the way that they relate to things like that, there’s fundamentally different distinctions, right, and doesn’t mean that men can’t get there, right? But the way that they get there is completely different. Right. And and it might it might be that that that is also an unbridgeable gap in some sense. Yeah. At a point, right, like at a point. Yeah. Yeah, I think I’m starting to run out of batteries right now. OK, well, I like to have batteries. Yeah. Then we should run it off. Yes. Ask for the chat to give some last questions. Are they watching? Is there how many how much do we have? We have a couple of people. Well, that’s sweet. I scared them all off when I started talking about women and men, because I don’t know what they got alienated by my reference to violence. I think that’s let’s see. So far, anyway, yeah, let’s close it off. So to reframe it in faith, right, it’s like, yeah, like, I think I think you need to engage with the fractal layers, right, like what where’s where’s the problem, right? Like, like, is your problem of faith actually on the level that you’re at? Right. And it’s like when you start thinking that way, right, like, is the question that you’re asking actually resolvable on the level that you’re at? It’s probably not. And therefore, it’s a stupid question. Right. Like, and then the question is, well, is it is it ultimately resolvable even? Right. Yeah, maybe. But but a better question to ask, right, because you don’t have to go there. You could just say, do I need to resolve? A lot of questions like they’re just there because you want to ask the question, not because it’s actually important. Maybe that’s all questions. I agree. Yeah, I think I think like. It’s a problem of submission right now. It’s a problem of just, like you said, dying. I have to come to terms with the fact that this is going to take a leap of faith. This means that I’m going to need to let certain parts of me go and just walk this path with trust and faith. And this is the only way I can find out what works and what doesn’t work. Otherwise, I’m just going to be jumping around from one process to the other. Yeah, well, I guess that’s a good place to end it. Thanks for watching, everybody, and to be resumed, I think, in the future.