Domicide - Ferdi - Unfolding the Soul (Pt5gejn1hFw)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=Pt5gejn1hFw

Hello, welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Ferdi and he has chosen this wonderful topic of domicile. So Ferdi, can you explain to us what the definition of domicile is? I don’t know if there’s like a true term for the definition of domicile. But to me domicile is the feeling of being hollow at a place that you should go home. And I think it’s a lot to do with the perception of home itself, that we feel like something should be home. But it misses components to be able to really feel it at home. And probably we’re not aiming or become just about trying to find a place to be able to call. And I think that’s why we’re like getting disassociated from a place where we feel fully alive. Right? The things we do, places we are, the people we meet and the music that surrounds us is not aligned with where we are at that moment. And I think domicile in that way is a very difficult place to be, especially when you have known the other part. I hope that makes any sense. Yeah, so I got a couple of things for you, right? So, exile. And yeah, not feeling fully alive, right? So there’s something in home that is facilitating. It’s facilitating you to live your life, but also to be alive. So maybe that inspires you. Yeah, well, I feel like the moment you’re there, you have this wealth within you that just brings forth life continuously. And then a lot of things will become effortless. Like, it doesn’t mean like you don’t put time into it. You probably put even more time into the things that you’re doing. But it goes almost without effort. Like you get up, you do your things and you go back to bed and you fall asleep nearly immediately. Well, if you’re like in a place of domicile, you probably struggle to do the things that you’re trying to do or are doing. And then the moment you go and lay your bed or lay your head to the pillow, you can’t fall asleep because you feel you failed that day. And then next day you should do better. You know, you wish you could stop the time so you could like fix everything in the meantime and still like the morning rises. And then the exile is like, you know, when you have found a place to call, you know, there’s at least for me, there was a moment that I needed to like that I could not like stay in there because home is also a moving place. So if you stick around, eventually home moves away from you. But oftentimes also like you need to start moving somewhere else because obligations or things that happen. So, yeah, no, exile is a big part of losing it. I think also a lot of people haven’t been able to get there yet. So they miss it. Oh, so is there a distinction for you that before you found it and when you left it, like is there a distinction in the feeling that you’re having and the relationship that you have to the domicile? Well, for sure. Like the period before it was building up to it. So you feel like you’re moving to something good in a way like you notice, like you’re catching things. At the moment, you leave it and in the beginning, you don’t even notice it. But you still pull that energy. You still have like sort of like reserves. But then eventually things feel off. And then you kind of start noticing you’re slipping. And then the only thing you want to do is return. But there is no way to go back. Like it’s not like you can just turn around, go back up because the place where you were doesn’t exist. And in many ways, like you try to hold on to it. Like I spoke, I remember like writing down a lot for myself back in the days to just figure out what was going on. And one of the things I would describe was like I felt like I was in this castle, like in this tower. And I had a city around me and I just saw like the walls crumbling. And, you know, I kind of knew that I needed to retreat to like the inner walls. But at the same time, I could not forego the outer walls because it was important to me and precious. So you described a sense of failure. So how is that connected to things scrambling around you? Well, it wasn’t necessarily failure. It was really more like having to let go. It’s allowing it to die. And like holding on a little bit is always good because you sort of need to know if you have to let it die. Like you should not let things go too soon. Like you kind of have to get it into your body, like stand. So the failure is more connected to keeping the past alive and the letting go is resolving. Well, in that way, the failure for me was to be able not to do the things that I was set out to do. And then suddenly you can’t keep your promises to people and the appointments you make. You know, you’re saying things, but you come back them up. So suddenly you’re not just failing other people and yourself, but it’s also like you lose the trust in yourself. Because you could say like, well, I will do this, but. You are not going to do it like that’s like like no way that whatever you’re trying to control your mind in a way is really being put into action. And so there’s a discrepancy there between what you think you can do or at least what you pretend that you can do and what you can actually do. And do you have a sense where that is coming from? Well, partly because you always could. Like it was always there and you never needed to doubt. So you can’t in some ways, you know, you can. And they should. But then. It doesn’t work and you try to grasp it, but you try to read and try to learn about things and you try to to find something that’s the key right to really connect you to the place that you should. So is that a sense of loss of identity? Like, like I feel like there’s an atrophy of of agency. And then I think that’s a perfect template. Yeah. And then with that, the loss of knowing who you are. And that is like some sort of like domicile within your own body or within your being. So so so the domicile was was actually connected to you and not so much to your physical. Existence within a social structure. Yeah, and you know, well, we’ve talked a bit before we have this conversation, of course, and that’s what’s the thing with travel. Like, you’re kind of like, you know, you search for something like you like a place or like an like an experience or an arena that you could call home. And then there’s something about like moving away that allows you to be a bit more yourself because you’re like conform to, you know, family, society, friends, the places you all have been since like a little boy, like on how to participate in those things. And you have like cultivated this sort of persona and those habits that keeps you there, like sort of stuck. But when you travel, all those things are gone. But then also when you’re traveling and especially if you’re traveling alone, you meet a lot of people who also traveling alone and they have the same. So suddenly you have two people coming together. Who don’t have or you still have like certain parts of your mouth gone, but a big part of your mask also be tear it off. And suddenly it’s like, well, I have no clue how my face looks and you don’t know who your face looks, but, you know, we’re here together now and we’re exploring that. So that opens up and door a little bit to become. Like see a little bit of sight and then, you know, you get the taste for it and then you think it’s the travel, right? You think it’s like meeting the people, the traveling and that’s opening the door and it opens it more and more and more. Yeah, sometimes it’s travel is not. Different people or different locations like the biggest travel for me was when I got back. And then I was stuck in one country that the same people around me, but I probably did more traveling in that period almost before, because in the domicile. You suddenly needed to tear down the mosque. Because the mosque wasn’t functioning. You know, in a way, it’s like, you know, the God of travel itself could not give me the water of life. So my experience in travel is that there was a sense of compulsion. Like there was early in earlier life, there was school and stuff like that, right? That even the friend group to a certain extent that provided the structure around me. And then when I was traveling, like everything felt like there was no scheduling, like nothing. Like you had to do everything yourself. There’s this force that gets put behind you and like. It drives you forward. Is your experience similar to that? Partly, but I’ve been traveling also in a way that I’ve been to places to work or to study. So you still move into a place and you quickly get some schedule and some structure, because you get your job or, you know, you have your classes and your classmates and, you know, the group of exchange students and you’re doing things will help you push forward in a way. And then I also been traveling just with my backpack. Just by myself and then, you know. It’s very interesting to notice your own sort of motivation. So what to do? Because I just love just to go. Go for a walk often in the same neighborhood, so I would not even go to different parts of the city. And I would just go and grab a coffee and read my book. You know, and eventually, like you talk to some people and slowly, you know, you have some, you have some like different experiences and you move on to the next place. But. Like I was definitely not the tourist sort of person that would go to like the attractions like. I was kind of like too lazy of a traveler in some ways. You ignored the. I just loved walking on the street and having all these people around me and. You know. Just sitting somewhere and seeing the view and read a little bit enjoying coffee. So how do how would you decide where to walk to? No reason really. Like it generally was just like you go from the front door and you either turn left or right. Interesting. So let’s go all the way to the start. So when was domicide rearing its ugly head in your life? Well, in many ways, the opposite of domicide started rearing in my life, probably when I was over 10. Like I had my appendix that was bursting and I was like, oh, I’m going to die. I stayed there for like a week and then I should have been able to go home. But thankfully I got like a weekend doctor that walked in and was like, well, I don’t trust it yet. You still have a fever. So I just want to make like a scan just to be sure. And if I would have gone home, I probably would never be able to get back to the hospital. And now I was like instantly on the knife. And I was like, I’m going to die. If I would have gone home, I probably would never be able to get back to the hospital. And now I was like instantly on the knife. And, you know, everything went well. So then, you know, you come home, you’re weak, like extremely tired in a way. I still remember like Finders was, you know, won the European Cup that year. So 2002. And we went to quarter like against Internationale. So I think this was the quarterfinal and my dad parked close to the stadium and it was like a five minute walk maybe. And I was so tired of getting into the stadium, exhausted. But then, of course, well, we went through. And so like I was ecstatic, I had all this energy and I could walk back to the car without any issue. But that was like that, you know, there’s something strange of being for the first time, sort of being confronted with that. Like it’s like a like, you know, it’s sort of a wake up call. And in many ways, it’s the wake up call is very pleasant. For me, at least for me, it was like everything looked like more colorful. But it was also like, you know, I want to experience the world. And I always had the notion of like the world is big. And I still have that to this day. So I was just, you know, getting more excited and a little bit more willing to go through the fear because I was like this, like, you know, a kid that wasn’t the most brave one in many ways. So, you know, I would, I would cling to my mom’s leg when she would bring me to school. You know, so then to like eventually become the person that’s like, you know, I’m 18, I’m just going to go to Australia is quite the shift. And I think a lot of to do as that turning point because only I was like, I was like, I’m going to go to Australia. Because only I was like, I got to see the world about a, you know, experience things like I want to experience everything. And I think that’s the travel buck that I was getting because he also went to Cuba for the first time, like the first time, like going on a plane trip instead of Italy or France, like most Dutch children do when they’re like younger. And that’s so because, you know, we had like an arc period and we’re like, yeah, let’s get out. And I just loved it. So then, you know, I could start doing a university course, like what do you think? So you’re this kid, right? And you’re really introverted in the sense. And so what is what are the things you start doing when when you get this excitement? Awoken inside of yourself? Well, often you start making the decision to choose to experience over the safety and and not like it for me, like extreme things like it wasn’t like, you know, somebody you know, go bungee jumping and skydiving just because, you know, I wanted to do everything like I did bungee jumping and I’m a faggot, but you know, that was not like I got to do that. But it was like, you know, moments of like you have to make a decision, which would be good for your like resume or the decision of like having an experience. That I was eager to get and then I would choose the experience in the hope that it eventually would translate to my resume as well. So if we’re talking about experience, are we talking about something like sports like being active like starting to play in football teams or whatever or are we more talking about going to the museum and having having a more passive experience? Both, anyway, both. It will depend on the situation. Like I think just the just trying to have the experience in whatever moment you can find and then sometimes breaking the mold of your habits. So that sounds like you became aware of your participation and that you have agency within how you participate. Yeah, I think that’s a very good summary. So then you end up going to Australia, you said? Yeah, my first travel experience really like going off by myself was Australia. What’s the story that you tell yourself when you decide to do that? I don’t really know. I was just like searching for a place to have my internship. And you know, it’s all coincidence in many ways. Like in some ways, it’s not because you’re like the research, but it’s because you’re like the research. So I think that’s a good summary. So I think that’s a good summary. And you know, it’s all coincidence in many ways. Like in some ways, it’s not because you’re like the reason I got the internship was because I was starting to talk about, you know, I had to do something in a way. So I was like in a football stadium next to a person and she was asking me like, what do you do for study, stuff like that. Stuff like that. But international business management, you know, I needed to go abroad, but like I needed to go abroad because I needed only to do one of the two abroad. And in many ways, like she was the person that eventually helped me to get it. Like she was like, you know, to her I was like, hey, can we help this kid? And then, you know, you walk into an interview that all goes well, they’re willing to send you over, you know, and there’s really no conscious decision almost there. Like You’re in the system. You take it, you’re ready for it. Right. In many ways. And for me, it never mattered too much the location itself. Like I just wanted to find like Did you want to leave? Yes, I did. I found the Netherlands quite black at that point. And, you know, I felt sort of like stuck a little bit in a way. And I think every teenager eventually gets to that point a little bit. And you know, that’s why probably a lot of people eventually move into a room where they, they move into a room where they have a lot of fun. And I think that probably a lot of people eventually move into a room where they do their studies. Be a bit more rebellious, I guess. It’s kind of like trying to break the mold in which they’re a little bit too stuck. And I would, I’ve never been a very like a person that would go into conflict. So I would just seek my way through it and then be like, okay, I can sneak out. Well, like finding the holes in the map. Yeah, you know, stay close enough into the system that everybody is not concerned about you in a way. Like, you know, you’re doing the things that everybody says sort of like you need to do at the most basic level. But then, you know, find a spot that you can poke through it and then do your own little thing. So, the place was organized for you. Like, how much responsibility did you have to take when going to Australia? Not too much. Like you just got to like get your paperwork done, of course. And when you get there, you know, you got to do your job. That’s the most important thing. Of course, you’d like, you know, suddenly start cooking your food, you know. Making sure you’re closer, worse than everything. Like just normal, you know, getting on your own in a way. And I think a big responsibility was that you really needed to find your, like your friends in a way. Because, you know, going into a workplace, it’s far more difficult to just catch up with people than going into university. So there’s like also that spot that, you know, you need to go out and try to find people that you can hang out with outside of work. But that thankfully went really well with a group of friends there. So in terms of responsibilities outside of like, you know, being able to be on yourself, Like it’s a big increase compared to what before, but at the same time, it wasn’t like the enormous step that it’s like you’re starting to swim. You don’t really know where to start. This integrating with a new social group, was that a thing that went easy for you? Yeah, I think it was. In Australia, it went really easy. I actually have a few friends and I spend most of my time with them. So that was quite easy in a way. And you know, Australia, everybody speaks English, people are pretty open, especially like if you’re like Like a tourist or something like an expat, in a way, people are a little bit more curious to you as well. So it’s like easy to have like some smaller conversations. It’s, it is also one of the places that I really started reading again. So I think it was a really good experience. I think it was a really good experience. I think it was a really good experience. It’s like easy to have like some smaller conversations. It’s, it is also one of the places that I really started reading again. Because, suddenly like going out of the door by yourself, and then just sitting in the restaurant, eating some food. It’s, it can be a weird experience if you’re like not having anything on you. And smartphones were not a big thing back then yet. And smartphones were not a big thing back then yet. So I just brought a book. And, you know, it makes you a bit more comfortable in a way to, you know, be at a place where normally people are in groups, or like at least with the two people by yourself, but it also makes it more like Like a little trip, you know, me and my book that day. Did you find fellowship or did you just find companionship? No, I found fellowship. Like I got like three other Dutchies with who I hang out a lot, and with who I explored like Australia quite a bit in that sense. So how did you progress? Like is this relating to domicile? Like are you getting a sense of being away from home? How that’s affecting you and your sense of self? Well, in many ways it was like finding slowly pieces of feeling more at home. Because there’s, there’s a lot of things that I’ve been doing, and I’ve been doing, and I’ve been doing it for a long time. Because there’s that sort of eagerness for the weekend. That’s a sort of eagerness for like the evening. And that’s even like an eagerness to step into that lift in the morning. And in many ways that was just like a small taste of it. Because, you know, I was going to Korea after Australia. And I think there we started moving ahead quicker. Because there was even bigger communities to participate in. So what does the size of the community matter for? Like what does a bigger community provide for you? Well, it’s not just in size. It was also like in amount of time spent. And in many ways, it’s like, okay, so you come to Korea, and we have this group of 50 or 100 international students, but 50 of them were Chinese and they were a little bit more general. Like only a couple of them would join the rest of the international community. And, you know, you’re living there on the university ground. You go to classes together. We didn’t have a kitchen. So you would sleep together with like a few. You would eat together with groups. So every evening was like an adventure. Like every evening you would go out, search for some food, you know, and then come back home. Good class, you know, have some lunch together somewhere. So in many ways, you were constantly participating in the community, except for Sunday. Sunday was my time a week, like that I would just go out, grab a beer, grab pizzas, go back to my room and just watch a football game. Because I needed something to eat. But in many ways, it’s like, like, you’re all in this place. You don’t know the language. You don’t know the culture. You don’t know the city. You just go and you’re all in there, like, you know, meeting each other, learning about each other, you know, and you’re all in this place. So in many ways, it’s like, like, you’re all in this place. You don’t know the language. You don’t know the culture. You don’t know the city. You just go and you’re all in there, like, you know, meeting each other, learning about each other, you know, trying to figure things out, spontaneous conversations about whatever would come up. Like every evening, we would be sitting somewhere and talking. So in a sense, right, like I’m in my mind comparing this to cooking together, sharing homely responsibilities and the arena that you were participating in was organized in such a way that that was outsourced, I guess. But I assume that you’re also going to different places, right? So you’re you constantly change the environment that you’re in. So how does that affect you? Like, is the being in new spaces an important aspect? And it helps revitalize a lot of things, because a lot of things you have to redo. And there’s a lot of like excitement, like if you go to like a new job, you know, it’s you’re never going to do exactly the same that you did at a previous job. There’s always going to be like something slightly different. And it’s, you know, makes it a little bit more energetic again. And then in some ways, that happens when you go from place to place as well. Like there’s like all that sort of like, well, the early role playing game, right? It’s like the first levels. It’s like, you know, you see the progression being made. You know, it’s like, so only like after three days, you know, like 20 names. A week later, you know, like 40 of them. And there’s that like excitement in life. Having the progression in many different levels at the same time. And if you look at it now and say, well, like, I’m not having that progression anymore, at least not in that way. How would you think you would experience it now? I would probably find it very tiresome. Like in some ways, like when I go now and I will get my backpack and I travel, I get to sort of that eagerness again. And I will get back into because it’s also like there’s like a place that I know how to act in those ways now. Like I become that persona I’ve got. And, you know, I love it. But at the same time, it’s also like, I don’t need it anymore as I used to. Like, there’s a, there’s the big shift that basically for me was that moment, like when I didn’t need to do the travel. I still like it, but I don’t feel that that thirst, that hunger, that consciously like wanting to go, go, go, go. But in many ways, that’s because I’m still doing that. Like, but in different forms. Okay, so when we’re talking about this hunger, is there going out every evening? Is that like a miniature version of travel and a miniature version of satisfying that hunger? Okay. Yeah, a little bit. It’s like, especially like, also like you take responsibility, organize things. So it’s kind of like, hey, like guys, let’s, let’s try this. Let’s go there. And, you know, you kind of want to have them that evening for the others. So you kind of feel that responsibility and other times you’re just one of the participators. You know, coming along. And it’s that sort of different modes. It’s like, one of the things I would recommend people as well is like, if you have like a small group of friends. And you’re like, especially if you live by yourself, organize a dinner party and then, and then just like, circulate, like everyone’s they have to somebody else place. Because that’s, first of all, it’s easier. Like, especially if you live by yourself, because you have, you know, you can, like, let’s say you have a group of four, like Wednesdays, you can just sit at a table and enjoy food and cooking for corporate reasons is not much more difficult than cooking for one. But there’s also, it’s just like, there’s like, like everybody’s doing that, like paying that little bit of extra attention to everything. And suddenly cooking is a little bit more special. Because you’re paying attention to what you’re really doing and what sort of ingredients you’re buying and what you’re going to make. And that’s also noticeable for when you participate. Because suddenly you notice that somebody’s having like a little bit effort in all these little things. And I think that helped a lot because then suddenly you go somewhere and somebody has to research that a bit. He like, made like a little plan of what we could do. And you tag along, you can notice that little effort everyone. Did you have a sense that the world was telling you what to do? In some ways, yeah. Like I could just follow along the song. And I want to connect this back to responsibility. So, because why I say the world tells you what to do, that means that you don’t, you’re not responsible for figuring out what to do, right? You listen to the song, like you said, and follow along. Well, the biggest part of the responsibility is to pay really careful attention to it. Constantly. Because in many ways, one of the things you start noticing is the few times you didn’t follow the song because you were too tired. Or whatever other reason. And you feel like you missed out in those moments. But at the same time, you also know, like you can’t have been everywhere at the same time. So attention, paying attention to the song, the song that you’re listening to, is very important. Because you can also be drifted too far along. So in many ways, one of the responsibilities you have is to, you know, and enjoy it, but also make sure you don’t crash it. Like you don’t want to crash it. Enjoy it, but also make sure you don’t crash it. Like you don’t want to get to the side of the motor and jump out, because that will be foolish. But at the same time, you don’t want to, you know, fully pedal along in the speed. Like you want to steer slightly, and preferably steer very little in a way, because then it seems like you’re going well. But you also need to be prepared to, you know, steer whenever you get necessary. And that also requires you to know what the stream is that you’re in. Because if you don’t know what you’re participating in, what the song is about, then yeah. Yeah, well, in many ways, you know, you’re also depending on the spirit of the community. Like, you know, the community itself in which you participate in a way is a lot of like the guiding you. And you often do more stupid things in the spirit of a community than you would do if you didn’t have that spirit of community, just your own. So, you know, in some ways, I was also lucky that there was like some stupid things in the spirit of the community, but it was very, you know, I would say that. Like, yeah, innocence in a way. Like it was like playfully innocent and a bit dumb combined. But it was also a good community that would like, you know, hold a mirror to you if it would overstep your boundaries in a way. Because that’s a very important thing as well. It’s not that, you know, you pay attention to you, but also other people pay attention to you. And sometimes that you pay attention to others is sometimes a thing that gives more light to yourself. Because they are like, you know, the icons in a way in which we can pursue the light ourselves. Yeah, that is really important to have that. So, yeah, where does that lead you? Well, eventually, you know, I continue to work with the community. Well, eventually, you know, I continue traveling. So I went to study in France, Lyon. Quite similar story to Korea in many ways. Although I already like had like a little, you know, grieving period for Korea and Australia when I was in Lyon. So I noticed like sometimes I could be quite nostalgic to the previous travels in the way. Why? Because I’m not very good at grieving. But if you’re in the spirit, you’re not grieving, right? Well, but sometimes I would be outside of the community and be alone in my apartment. Okay, so there’s this thing where you recognize that, yeah, you’re not caught in the thing and then you have the moment of reflection. Yeah, like the moment I would walk out the door in a way and I would like meet the exchange items of like Lyon. Those thoughts were out of me. But then the moment I would just be like, you know, sitting alone in my apartment, you know, getting my food ready. You know, I would feel this sorrow having lost the things from before. And in many ways, like I would be like, you know, And in many ways, like I’m not very good at saying bye or like stuff like that. So, you know, you sort of leave and it eventually catches up to you. And in a way, it’s like a good thing, right? Because it also shows you how wonderful the time you have to know, you know, how much you love those people. It’s also a thing you have to go through. But, you know, it wasn’t hindering in any way, but it was like, you know, noticeable. So did you recognize the things that you valued at that point? Or was it just a general sense of loss? I would say it was still more in general sense. Like, I don’t think I really tried to be consciously aware of my failures at that point and the failures of those things. It was all still more abstract. So it’s interesting that you do have this sense of your participation, right? And that you’re intentional around that. But then in a different sense, you don’t have a good understanding of why it’s important or what you’re trying to find in that participation. Well, I don’t know if I knew that when I was in Korea. Like I put that in now afterwards, right? And now afterwards, like from Leon, I could probably see why in many ways. But that’s also like from the point now. And I think one of the values is like, you know, you build, you become part of each other. And being suddenly tear it apart in a way with people you spend the whole day with, it’s always going to be hurtful. And I jumped immediately like to like a new place. Got into a city and I didn’t have an apartment yet. So I was like walking down the streets, finding a hotel for the first night. Yeah. And that was like an adventure by itself. But and then, you know, the next day you’re already meeting like new classmates, you know, you’re going to school, that all your things set up. So you’re already instantly in sort of like a new busy mode. So you keep going. There’s no time to really push the, you know, the pause button to really reflect back. But before I went to the owner, I went like back packing through Asia a little bit. Which, you know, is not stopping as well. That’s also keep going. So what do you think would have been different if you had a better transition? I think I would have been able to express my love and appreciation for the people more before. Was there a regret around that? I think a little sorrow now. But back then? In me, maybe. I don’t know. Not consciously. Not consciously. Like now I feel it’s just horrible because those people deserve to hear that. In many ways. I bet they knew. You kind of know when you’re there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so you’re not going to be able to do that. So, yeah, so you’re getting thrown into studying again. What is that like? You’re engaging with courses that are semi-related. Like, because I assume they’re not like woven into each other. No. Well, in Korea, just like Korean studies. So just like a lot of Asian history, stuff like that. So that didn’t have much to do with international business at all. Except, you know, you can say like culture and stuff like that is part of, you know, performing business in many ways. And there’s probably a lot more skills in there that are more important to whatever work you’re going to do. Than really the courses you are normally on the curriculum. And then, but in Leon, it was really like a rosmer state, like the business courses. We had like some amazing teachers as well. So, you know, you get back into that mode of like, you know, those courses in a way. But it wasn’t like, you know, you don’t feel like any difference there. Like, you know, study is study in many senses. And whether that’s in Korea or in France or in the Netherlands. A lot of things are like quite similar. Like some of the people are, of course, doing it slightly differently. There’s a little bit different sort of pressure on you. And, you know, there’s, I guess, like a little bit more importance put on your studies when you’re back in the Netherlands. Than, you know, when you also have a city to explore. Like, but otherwise that’s like pretty simple transition. There’s not too much like on course level itself or education level itself. That’s noticeable. So are you still in the community in France? No, no. No, that’s also that was all like extensions all over the world. You know, sometimes you get a message from somebody or, you know, we have like, like people come over and then you guide them around. So, you know, there’s like sometimes little opportunities of trying to find each other again. But nothing that’s like sticking, sticking around in a way. Which I think is not always a bad thing. I think if you be so far away from each other and quite moving all into different places, right? It’s like sometimes a good thing to also let go of your old. Now what happens? Then I went into rooms in Utrecht. Which was a fun period as well. We had a lot of like exchange students coming over to our place. It was together with somebody in met in Korea. So we already had like quite a bond. So yeah, it was just. Yeah, we’ve got like a little, little apartment with like three students. So me, the guy from Korea, and then we had like somebody else who came in and out. I think it’s like one person mainly, but we have like a few others. But did it feel like home? Like getting back into your home country and? Partly, but I also had there still that nostalgic feeling of having lost things. Like that feeling popped up every once in a week. And I noticed that because like I know that because I was like often like when I was in the office, I would often have like the moment by myself, I would just like listen to music and just let it wash over myself. Like it was almost like I was consciously searching for that feeling a little bit like allowing it to happen. So there’s like a lot of parts that was like energizing enough. But it was also not like fully at home. And I would say that was probably the same in Korea as well. Like it wasn’t fully at home yet, but I was getting closer and closer. And I think all those moments together prepared me for eventually getting there. And I was like, so I went after that. I went to Canada to work my second membership. And then I went to Guatemala to study Spanish. And there it wasn’t even that long of a period, but like a month. We’re just like living in this little town studying Spanish for hours a day with like a teacher. And then, you know, you do a couple hours yourself. Living with this local family. And then I went to Canada to study Spanish. And then I went to Guatemala to study Spanish. And then I went to Canada to study Spanish. and back to school in a way. And there was always this mist in the morning that would just clear up through like the afternoon. And there it just was like eventually everything was at its right place. Like I was talking with the right people at the right time, doing the right things. And till this day, if I talk about it, I remember the cobblestones below my feet. Like I know how it felt to walk up like off that mountain and walk up that little dirt path. Like there’s this like it’s like almost like it’s everything is like really taking up into my body. So do you have a sense of what caused that? Like is there a shift within you that allowed you to have a certain openness or? Well, I think in a way, the travel experience before allowed me to quickly be more open and be more assertive in finding my spot. At the same time, it’s also there was a lot more peace to it as well. Like with the other things, it was a lot more hectic. There’s a lot more things of doing, doing, doing. But there it’s like, you know, you’re bound to studying four hours a day and then you’re in this little town next to like on a volcano or lake around. But after four hours of studying, one on one with like a teacher, your brain is pretty like tired already. Then you go for some lunch and you study a bit more. You go on the market and you also get ingrained in the community of that village. And, you know, you have an important obligation to the family you’re staying with. And to your teachers and, you know, the weekends were really like the exploration days where you would go, you know, you would hike the volcano or, you know, go on the lake. You go to the next town. And I think the exploration of the culture there, you know, the people you were exploring the town with and then the people who have always lived there in a way and they have never been outside of that town. It gives like a certain peace and anchor to stay at. But at the same time, it gives like that nice unknowing area around it in which you can step your toes. So in many ways, it’s like, I think one of the big things different to the travels before was the piece of the village itself. And it might have to do with the setting as well because it’s sort of like you have this little town, a lot of greenery around it. You have this mountain protecting you back anyway. And then you have this beautiful blue lake stretching out in front of you. It almost feels like all components there were exactly in balance. Did you also feel divorced from your past? No, almost not. Not that I really remember, except maybe if I was like talking with the people about it, I would maybe feel a little bit, but no. I think it’s like, you know, it’s like, you know, I was really present, really. I meant the force in the sense of obligations, right? Like that the imposition of the person you have to be in the world being responsible. Oh, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in many ways, I created budget also for myself. So, you know, I didn’t need to watch my wallet too much or like work or like the study itself. That’s probably like an obligation in a way, but that’s even like really taken, right? I could walk away in the second and it will not be like any harm. But no, like you kind of start like all of fresh again. And especially also, I think maybe a big part of it as well is like, you know, trying to express yourself somewhere in different language. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s a bunch of things that shift at once. I can imagine how that. Yeah, because like language is very interesting in many ways because you become a certain person in another language. Yeah. Yeah. You’re reacting to what you think. It’s required of you, especially if you can’t articulate yourself well, maybe that’s actually really important. The lack of being able to communicate properly puts you in a dependent and humble situation. I like now you’re. Yeah. Well, it also shows like really like it’s also like a fun way because like sometimes you really need to accept that you’re just a book because like otherwise you would not even try to communicate with people, but you kind of know like you kind of have to and they love it. Generally speaking, everybody loves it when you try to. So you kind of have to, you know, let yourself go and be a fool, even though, you know, it’s not really that full. It’s kind of like, you know, the opposite. But it is getting rid of the mask in a different sense because yeah, maybe you’re like too busy juggling all of these other things that you can’t juggle your mask as well. So yeah, so if you feel like you landed somewhere, like what is it like to leave? Well, in many ways, it was really weird because I was like it was like New Year, they like to barbecue and then a couple of days later I would be leaving like a week later or so and I remember. I remember my gosh saying like I should not go in a way that, you know, I have my reasons to go. I needed to finish my study. I could not stay there much longer like a piece of stuff in any way and I already set the day that I would be leaving anyway, but my God somewhere new like I should not go and instead of at least acknowledging that I didn’t try to pay attention to it. So, you know, and I got really sick like a few days before like I probably ate something wrong. So it was like, you know, three days just laying in bed and well all the things you don’t want to do and then I had to go back to the airport. So first I have to go with a boat and while you’re all you have been like three days nauseous and everything go with a boat and then like little fan. Thankfully all that as well. But, you know, it’s like from like you just go through the roots and you just go in a way and so the moment before you leave even though I noticed like something was like I like something in me didn’t want to go. You know, you try not to pay attention to it and maybe that’s because I’m trying to avoid conflict right and the conflict within yourself is often the ones you try to avoid the hardest. So you try to keep this piece anyway and I don’t think I should have stayed like not at all but having paid attention at least to what it was trying to say back then would probably have helped the lending more. So yeah, and then I keep the piece like was the thing that you were able to do. I’ve always been able to keep the piece and I don’t think that’s always been a good thing. Like I think like at some point I should have not kept the piece like I should have exploded. Like and then not like an outburst uncontrollable but you know, a decent outburst. So what would how would that look like crying, angry? No, I think well crying I think would be great. I think crying would have been amazing. I think crying is one of the best things we humans can do because I don’t think there’s nearly anything we can do as honest as crying. Like there’s something about the expression for crying that. Yes. It’s authentic. Yeah, authentic. And I think that’s probably why it’s so powerful to heal yourself as well. Yeah, laughter also comes to mind. Yeah, laughter. Laughter is a big one as well. So you know, like crying definitely like I noticed I got like much more emotional afterwards if I would do things by myself like listen to music or watch a movie like if there were other people around not so much. But if I would do it by myself, I would definitely know that’s like I would be far more and cry baby, you know, after all those experiences than before. Which is good for me, I guess. But no, I’ve always been able to keep the peace till a point that it’s not like a virtue. And in other ways, I’m very happy I could because I never got to a point that I really got this trot with life. So like I was always able to be social. I was always able to participate still in a way that’s sort of acceptable. So I never felt completely lost. I always had a sort of faith I would eventually find my way. And there was like even like a little joy in knowing that I was like digging somewhere I never was digging before. So you returned to the Netherlands. Yeah. And that’s where you return returned. Yeah. Well, yeah, pretty much never left after that, except for holidays. And yeah, that’s kind of around the time that we met, I think. So now you’ve got to like resolve this place that you’re in, right? You have all of this pent up thing that should explode, but it’s not exploding. So how does that work? It worked really well. Well, like it didn’t, it took me a while though. Like before we met, that was probably another like two, three years in. So it was like the first half year that I got back, everything went pretty fine. Like it’s a new adventure, like a new thing she were excited for. And you still have that access of energy in a way. But then you start noticing, like I said before, things are off. And in a way it’s like, you know, like I’ve been like a tour in this museum for a long, long time and having this painting in this museum that I love. Like I love that piece and I could tell you exactly why. And I would do every time I talk about that piece, I would feel that love again. But, you know, I went to like another museum, fell there in love with a few pieces and I go back and I could still tell you why I love that painting, but I don’t feel it anymore. And I still find it beautiful and I still find it, you know, I can still see all the nuances in it that I used to see before. But it’s, there’s something off. And that’s how it sort of started. And then it’s only more and more and more. So, you know, I never finished my studies because I could not get myself to study anymore on the ways, on the things I should study. And, you know, one of the things I probably should have done is cut it up sooner. But, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, being trying to not like get the conflict going, you know, try to finish the thing you needed to do. So everybody will be like, oh, good job, you know. But at the same time, like trying to juggle the things that you were like eager to find, right? Like you’re trying to eagerly find like what’s going on with you. Like, why are you losing that agency? Like, how do I get that back? And, you know, firstly, if you try to put yourself through things, you might watch like some motivational videos and that keeps you immersed for 10 minutes to do something. And then you’re just like, okay, after those 10 minutes, what happens? So, you know, you’re like trying to find something to hold on to. And, you know, I did like personality testing, like all those things you could try to dig into. Well, and eventually we met for the Discord. And I think at that point, I was already like up moving upwards in many ways. And it was like a good new step. Which is it allowed me to express myself. So you’re finding Peterson, Fanda Clay, stuff like that. Well, and an important one for me was the book, Lawros. I found it in a bookstore, just bought it by the coffer itself, and then it had good reviews and good reads. And it’s about this sort of like fictional saint life, for like Russia. And he’s like going on his own travels in a way, and through different phases of life, different names. And that, when the moment I read that book, like I was like trying to read a lot of books to figure something out as well. But when I read that book, I knew that’s the sort of world I want to live in. Where having those footsteps again, just finding the ground was something beautiful. And it helped to put a frame into what I was searching in some sense. Before that, it was just like too fake. And you would move on to, well, Alan Watts, for example, came by, you read his stuff, and you’re like, oh, I got something. And then a month later, okay, I’m out of it. And this helps sort of suddenly focus a thing a bit more on what you were searching for. And then Jordan Peterson came along with his myth talks, like stories with different, kind of like showing different levels in the story, which helped a lot for me. And I think the discord itself was immensely important to me, especially in beginning to learn how to express or to have a place to express it more than just my writing. Because I learned that writing for me was a very good alternative in a way to be able to at least stop the spinning of my brain. And I mean, you’re thinking about something, but you keep thinking the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. You can’t seem to get out of the loop almost. Like it takes like a billion turns before you get out of the loop. But then you start writing it. And the moment you write it down, you’re like, that’s so dumb. And because there’s something about being able to read something or have something in front of you and having it go back through your senses. That’s distance. Yeah, that’s recalibrated. Like the moment it goes back through your senses, your senses are doing something with it to recalibrate it. And suddenly it’s changed in parts. And that allows you to transform it. And then the spinning stops in a way, because then suddenly it becomes a new spin that comes back in. So that was a big important thing to break that pattern like spinning in my head. And then the this work came and that was like another way to express myself by talking to people and having people talking to me. Which then suddenly becomes like an even stronger sort of mode in which you can do that. And through that, suddenly you’re losing the access of like things you carry along. So in many ways, the expression through the conversations you have with people and the exploration you have together allows to shed the tears that you needed to shed before. Because in some ways, that expression is similar to crime. I’m laughing. Yes, cathartic. Yeah, so there’s this sense where you’re getting this vehicle of essentially having a mirror and having a process to participate in where you can see and relate to yourself. Isn’t that a thing that you had before in the community? Yeah, no, I think so. And I think one of the things that was difficult was when I come back from abroad in a way. I didn’t have that sort of community again. Like I still have good friends. I still have like family, like great family, but they were not that sort of community in a way. Is that a thing in the culture or is that a thing that you couldn’t find your place that you didn’t have in living enough life together? I think in many ways, I didn’t know how to find it myself again. And there was a part of me that was like thinking I could only find it through traveling. In some ways, there was that sort of feeling of run away again. So it might have even stopped you from searching it around you in a way. And I’m not sure if I was conscious at that point of that yet. Eventually, you learn a little bit about what was the expat term for it. I don’t remember. There was like a term that you use a little bit in expat circles about the coming home. It’s like a sort of homesickness, but a different one. It’s not like it’s coming home like, oh, look, everybody is riding bicycles. That’s so weird. That’s the sort of fun coming home thing too. It’s like, oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s true. But it’s more like that’s a certain feeling of domicile. Really, it’s the feeling of domicile. I think you kind of know the place, kind of know the people, but at the same time, you’re not getting connected. Also partly, but that’s also because you don’t know how to express yourself to them. And also, in some circles, you should be able to express yourself in certain ways. And for other things, you need another circle. And I think that’s very appropriate. Like, you can’t expect a group or somebody to be your whole circle because that’s unfair to them. And that’s going to be always detrimental. Like, if you’re going to be in a relationship with a person, you can’t expect that person to be able to be the whole circle for you because that would destroy that person and that would destroy your love for that person because they will never be able to hold those standards. So what was the thing that Discord provided to you that wasn’t provided in your social environment? I think for me, it was really helping, like a place to explore and to reconstruct parts of the world with me because there was a lot of people who were pretty much in the same spot as me. And there wasn’t like nobody providing answers in the way. But every time we would find something and we would share it and we would talk about it, we would discuss things. Like, we would even discuss how to run the Discord, right? Like, what to do in a way. Like, even that was new. And so in many ways, it was like being able to start expressing yourself, seeing other people express themselves to you, like, honestly. And there was an uncertain love for each other because we all were familiar with what we were going through. So in some ways, we’re all building a house together. And you learn a bunch of skills while doing that. Is that something that you can translate back to your real-life relationships or is there still something special around Discord? No, I think I’ve been able to translate that more and more into outside of the Discord. I think one of the things you learn, well, one of the things is becoming more conscious of everything, right? Because you’ve been discussing it and talking about it and conversing with it and eventually like little things are popping up and you have like a mapping in your mind, at least. And but also you catch it, you’re slowly starting to pay attention to the right things. And that means only you’re walking into a bar and three out of four times, you know, you talk to some people, maybe that you haven’t spoken before and there’s nothing out of that. But at one time you walk into a bar, there’s something about this person you notice and you just know you will hit it up. And you will talk to that person probably the whole night. And it’s an exhilarating conversation. And that’s because you’re sort of like became attuned to the sort of person you need to find. So like through your dissipation in the Discord in a way, you start noticing the glimpses of those people and people you will meet in real life. And that’s one of the things like, you know, you have there’s like sometimes like the estuary stuff, right? People are talking about. But for me, in my travels, I was already having a lot of estuary spaces because it would have been all people without mosque coming together, often exploring themselves while exploring that place at the same time. And that’s a great filter for people. Now, you know, that’s like, you know, and you can find it like in many places and it’s not like, you know, you’re just going to find it easily, but become more attuned to it. And, you know, there’s like probably ways you can search it up a bit more. Actively, but already by, you know, participating itself, you get the eye for it. So it will come towards you as well, or it feels like it’s coming to you, but in many ways, you know, you have actively changed enough that it feels like that. Well, yeah, well, the big thing, I think, is coming up, isn’t it? Very well. The big thing is, well, making your home. Yeah. Well, then one of the things is like, you know, you can go anywhere, really, but the thing is like you carry the home with you. Like home is really where the hardest. So you better be at the place where your heart is because else it’s, you know, it’s always going to feel disconnected. And I think one of the things we as humans, we have to do is to make sure that we are automatically seeking for is to be home. I think that’s also why you are so much in pain when we’re not. So how do you place your heart somewhere? And I would suggest work by inquiring, honestly, try to express that earnestly and then act it out with evenness. And that doesn’t mean you’re going to get it like by enforcement, not, but in that way, from your expression and who you’re acting out, you get in. And by doing that earnestly, you also get earnestly back. And then you do that or you’re trying to do that on every level over and over again. And the thing you will start to realize is that eventually the young, like the feedback you get is pointing you to a better place slowly, surely. But it’s not only that it’s also like you start to be able to see yourself a little bit more honestly. And often by that, which normally when you think about expressing yourself honestly, it feels like it’s going to be very painful to you. And it might be right. But at the same time, when somebody else only does it, you feel kindness for them. And you have a certain love towards them. And that happens exactly when you do it as well. And the moments people share their love with you, but also when you see yourself, you will feel a little bit more love for yourself because the honest and earnest view is one that you will notice is worth forgiveness. But also it’s worth appreciation. Yeah, one of the things about love is people often forget is one of the best ways to love someone is allowing them to love you. Yeah, like giving them the opportunity to reveal or unfold themselves towards you in their care for you and receiving that properly. That is hard sometimes. Yeah, well, I think that’s in a circle. And it happens on different levels because even like a piece of art, like a good book, like if that’s made with a certain love and earnestness in there, there’s a lot of truth in that and a lot of goodness or a lot of beauty. And I would say beauty is truth that’s truthful and goodness or good that’s goodness or now goodness that’s good. And if you read a book like that also earnestly, you will have an appreciation for that book, but also you start to have an appreciation for yourself because that love is invigorating you and you will act slightly differently through that. And you will notice that they should probably act a bit better. Yeah, and with that you start opening up a bit more because you find a bit more love for yourself and then you are able to shed another piece of your mask. And then you can share that one. And that was masking and masking is like peeling the onion. In many ways it goes up real fast, but it also goes down real fast. Tell me more. Well, in many ways it feels like when you finally get the strike of something, you start noticing it goes like and then you can’t even remember where you really were sometimes because it’s been going so rapidly. But at the same time it goes the other way. Like if you approach life or life in a certain way with hate, you start destroying things and you start thinking things as as, you know, as ugly. It’s really easy to quickly put a mask on and then suddenly you feel disconnected again. Suddenly everything costs a lot more energy. So only you can only be one hour productive instead of 10 hours. And then you feel even more miserable and then you can’t sleep. And then, you know, you feel tired the next day, which doesn’t help you to get more like to do the things you wanted to do and feel good about yourself. And you just keep going. When you said see things as ugly, my mind immediately went waste of time. I was like a big block. My mind was like, don’t go there. Like, oh, in many ways it’s like, you know, it’s a lot of like, you know, in some ways you have to recognize things that are ugly. But in many ways in it, if you put things in the right place, you will notice they are really beautiful. And that’s the thing you shouldn’t walk too much. So, yeah, I wanted to highlight, right? So you’re effectively describing an opening up, a reciprocal opening with another individual. But I wanted to highlight also that there’s this connectedness, right? Like every time that you open like a channel of yourself to the other, there’s a way that that person can relate to you and can see you and anticipate you as a consequence of the seeing. And I think having that be present also is partially what’s relieving the burden. Right? Like if you’re living or your life is being lived in someone else, then they can anticipate you and make your life easier without too much of an effort, especially if they stop doing things. Well, and like in some ways, the only way you can have a real relationship is by opening up, right? To become like who you are and the other person to become who they are. And I think the only way to do that is to try to be that of yourself everywhere. And that doesn’t mean like you can do that easily. And I definitely haven’t succeeded at that. But doing it already like a few percent more than before is just becoming that well-liked. So then you recently got married. So that’s starting your own home. It’s setting some, you’re binding yourself, right? Like you’re… Yeah, we’re bound together. We’re crowned into our kingdom. Do it in your first church. We get crowned. And we sometimes speak about marriage as well, especially now like people were talking about it again with like have to be young to get married or preferable to be young to be married in a way. And we have like a slightly different view on it. There’s not so much about the age itself that’s lacking in a way, but it’s people being prepared to enter marriage. Because there’s like the age a lot, but it’s like from what does it even mean? Why is marriage beautiful, for example? You know, why should you go into it in a way or want to have it? And in many ways, I feel like we’re not married in a way, but we’re marrying still. Like in some ways we are weds, but we’re not married. Like we are marrying, you know, the wedding has been passed. And that’s because we’re still trying to become one person. Yeah, that’s an eternal journey, right? Like it’s the commitment, right? Like the binding. It’s an eternal destination. It’s a finite journey. You will get that and then you will stay there eternally. I have no clue out of the goat. That’s, you know, it’s the thing we aim for, right? It’s to become like one, you know, to return to one. How’s that connecting back into domicile? Because to return to one, you have to be at home both. And in a way that means like, because the only thing you can become one is also become first who you are. Because I can’t have a relationship if I put my mask on, because then she has a relationship with the person that has a mask. She has a relationship with the mask itself in many ways. One of the things I need to do is like keep shedding my mask and help her shed hers. And in many ways that comes through like struggles, right? Because like you need to work together on things. And through often hard labor, you get to know each other better. It’s about fasting and feasting. So in many ways, being in domicile means you’re the furthest away from the other person. That’s why I think, for example, when somebody cheat on the other person, it’s the domicile of the relationship in many ways, because the other person hasn’t been there all that time. Yeah, that is a great argument for monogamy. You’re killing the spirit. Yeah, well, and that’s the thing, right? Because in many ways at home is multiple arenas combined together. And generally, you want to be strong on all of them, because if you lose one of them, at least you can keep moving forward more easily. And that’s why it’s also so important to be in many different arenas, trying to create at home. And some places are only temporarily like that. Like you have to let them die eventually for yourself and move somewhere else again. But it’s like if you find like a homey yourself, you find a homey relationship with your partner, if you find a homey relationship like with your family, then with your friends, different group of friends, your community. That’s why I also think, for example, that’s like especially known in ambulance, right? Volunteers at club clubs, for example, are very hard to come because people are like, well, we all pay 10 bucks more so you can hire a cleaner instead. But the thing often like a club is not so much like that it needs to get done. It’s doing it together because that core group of people that’s doing all the work of an arch, basically for the club, their families and friends or others, are the ones that are going to be brought together through those offices. And only through the hard work together, you become like you bond in many ways because there’s something very satisfying, right? Like if you work together on something, you’re done. What’s the thing you’re going to do? Sit in the sun. Yeah, you’re going to sit down, probably get a drink and you watch what you have been doing. What’s the result? Yeah, that I am. So I’m looking a little bit for the ideal. So what’s the role of an ideal in the home? What’s the role of an ideal in home? Yeah. Can you elaborate? Well, you were talking about shedding the matter. You were talking about shedding the mask. Like that’s all formulated against something negative, right? But you’re also striving for something. So and how does that, the thing that you’re striving for help resolve domicile? Well, I think if you the ideal of like, if you are at home in a way, you become a light in the world. And I think everybody that interacts with you can notice that. And I think you will be able to move mountains. And in many ways, you know, in terms, you become a saint, right? You become a guiding light to everybody. Move upwards to find light. My life. How does that tell you what to do in the moment? That aspiration? Well, often it fails me because often I don’t ask the question. I don’t ask that question enough. But I think one of the best questions you can often ask is what should I be doing now? And if you ask that earnestly, you often don’t get a nice answer back. Doesn’t mean you probably need to clean the dishes or, you know, you should pick up your grandma like home somewhere. You know, it’s like, you know, it’s often not the answer you would like to hear. Like, if you really are like, ask it earnestly, you know, it’s probably not going to tell you like, it’s time for the M&Ms. Eventually, it will get to that. Like, you’re interested, like, you know what? I’ve done all this. It’s time to take my hour, sit down, have a couple M&Ms and enjoy. But I think the question of like having that ideal in your mind can put you back on the right track. And it doesn’t mean like you know exactly where it is, right? But it’s at least pointing you to move somewhere and pay attention to what it’s doing. And, you know, we keep recalibrating our path along the way. But the more steps you can take, the better your recalibration will become. Because it’s like, like for some, let’s take a like a book, like a book that’s been read by millions of people, millions of generations and found valuable through all that time. And people who have read it multiple times in their lives found it valuable and beautiful through every reading, but in different ways. It’s probably proving or like showing a bit more of the goodness, the truth that’s in the world. A book that’s only done that in one period in your life. Because it’s been just, it’s just been tested more often. That doesn’t mean that the book that you read in a certain period in your life doesn’t contain beauty because it does. But it’s slightly more one-dimensional in a way. It’s from a certain vantage point. And you should be glad that you’re finding it there, but it doesn’t mean like you need to keep going back to reading that book over and over again, because after that, it’s not that beauty anymore. Right. There’s an eternal component and a contextual component in beauty. Yeah. And if you keep following it piece by piece and keep paying attention to it, I would say you will get closer to the true beauty that’s out there. So if we’re striving for this ideal, you’re actually managing to implement properly. Where do you end up in five years? In five years? I will probably end up, if I would take at least a couple of good steps in a way. Perfect steps. Perfect steps. I will probably be declared a saint, resurrect people from the death on a continuous basis. How are you bringing that to pass? How do you get there? I don’t know, but I keep trying to move towards the beauty and try to keep expressing myself in a way and try to pay attention to the right things. And I can only get there with the help of others around me. So what role do you play in this? With the help of others around me. So what role do you think you would be fulfilling? Would you be fulfilling a role as a pillar of a community or do you see yourself more developing your career or do you see yourself becoming a father and going down? I think whatever you’re doing in a way, you would be fulfilling it because you can fulfill it everywhere. Yeah, but I’m asking about you. Thinking of myself, I would probably be a father. Probably very annoying children, but I still love them as much as I can. Well, I fully love them in a way, in that state. I would probably do good work at the work I’m doing. I probably love my colleagues and have fun with them because I found good colleagues in a way. And I do have them now, so that’s good. I would be a pillar in the communities I participate in. Like I would take a lot of the burden on me that I can. I would also not take too much, which I can’t. So what do you need to do to get there? Like are there any things that stand in your way? Like being the ideal dad, being a pillar of the community? Well, we’re being a dad, first need to get children. That one is taken care of. Time will show that. You know, community is going to be an interesting one because we’re just getting settled now here in the Netherlands. So it’s going to be a lot of work together for us to create our home here as a family a bit. And I think through the stabilization that’s slowly coming more and more, space will open up to be moving more into or like take more on to in the communities we already participate in. But I also feel like there’s probably going to be more communities coming up. So, for example, the church we go to, like I can see, you know, I’ll see eventually participating on more different levels within that church eventually. Taking up the mantle. We have a good core group of young people there, so it’s really fun to see other people doing it as well. No, so in many ways it’s keep moving. And try to like one of the more important thing is try to not become staking of in many ways. No, it’s building also better rituals to keep yourself. Asking that question. That’s, for example, why we have the icon corner and try to do our pranks. It’s not to ask for, you know, nice weather. It’s really to ask the question of what should I be doing or help me to do what I’m going to do now in a good way. Right, I like my priest told me once at one point, like about praying, told like a little story. And I’ve heard since then, for example, when I walk into the office, I pray. And it’s just to, you know, it’s the same way, like, you know, I would like get my clothes ready the day before. Or like we used to do that at the football. Like you would clean, you needed to have clean shoes on the day, on the match day, but you needed to clean them the night before, before you go to bed. So you clean them up, you know, like, and weirdly enough, you play a little better every time you did that. But that’s because, like, in some ways, by cleaning your shoes the night before, your mind is already set on the game. And you’re already preparing yourself for the next day and the match that’s going to come up in the morning. And, you know, asking that question and ask for like, like what, like, ask for the help to do the things. Good in a way helps you put your mind to the right thing. And the similar thing is, for example, driving to work. That helps. That’s like a tunnel. Like you get into that car and you’re like getting ready to go to work anyway. And then when you get in the car back home, you sort of get in the mode of, you know, getting back to the fountain, like leaving the work behind. Yeah, I think just like keep doing those things more consistently and keep trying to ask those things with the intention of following up on. Yeah, so I would frame that as setting the container, right? Like, what are you going to participate in and how are you going to participate in what you’re going to participate in? And having a conscious relationship to that is really, really helpful and also really, really difficult. So, yeah, these rituals are really, really helpful to do that properly. Yeah, I’m feeling miserably at them, though, like don’t get me wrong. But, you know, I’m doing way better than I used to. I was getting you right. I was relating to the good in you. The struggle is, you know, it’s also fun, right? Like you don’t have to forego the enjoyment of like your own struggle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that’s part of it, right? Recognizing that you were stupid enough to not think of something and laughing about it, right? Like having that kind of relationship is a good way to learn, right? It goes back to learning the language, right? It’s like, you know, you have to be, you know, have joy with you being a fool at times because else you will stop talking. It’s a language of being. Yeah, that’s a pretty good one. You’re going to steal that one from me. Well, you’re welcome. So back to the domicile, right? So everything being, well, working on all these communal aspects, whether it’s a work, home, or in actual communities, there is a sense that you’re trying to create a home for yourself and the people around you. And maybe a better way to think about it is, yeah, well, a place to be, a place to belong. Well, I think you could keep it as a place to be. So you don’t think the belonging is important? Because you belong where you’re being. Yeah, yeah, or you, but maybe other people aren’t there yet, right? Yeah, no, they should find their own places. You have shared places, but you also have, you know, the places which you don’t share. And sometimes a community for me is not the place where you should be. Or you can’t be in a way, because that’s not your place. And that’s fine. Like, we also have to agree that you don’t always have to be all at the same place or like have the same status. Like a thing, like a story once told to me, or like I heard somewhere, it’s like a priest, he got like taken off, or he wasn’t allowed to be a priest anymore, because of like his mistakes. And then, you know, he resurrected people. So he asked if he could become a priest again, and he was told no, you can’t be a priest again. Because you can’t become a saint. And in many ways, that’s something I feel like we sometimes lose sight of. It’s like, it’s not so much that we all have to put on the highest ropes. It’s that we all can become saints in all the ropes that we can wear. And for most people, probably being a priest will be detrimental to becoming a saint. And it’s exactly not the place you shouldn’t. Yeah, that is an interesting thought. How a priest would be detrimental. Yeah, I can see that for sure. So I want to go a little bit into, well, you’ve learned a bunch of lessons, and you’re intending to get kids. So what would you teach them? And how? I would just do it the proper dark way. I would just drop them somewhere in the forest. I mean, in relation to domicile, is that like, you need to learn how important your home is. Let’s just put you in the forest for a while. You’ve got to drop them in and ask them to find their way home. And, you know, it’s a step by step trying to let them die and find life again on a daily basis. And I think one of the most dangerous things I can do is become too protective in a way. And in other ways, it’s like to push them too far. I would do both probably at different times. But in many ways, it’s that swing in between that you try to hold as small as possible. So it’s a nice little swing between constantly. And it’s not like the insane swings that nobody can keep track of anymore. But how to do that, how I will try to do that. We’ve got a good partner. Hopefully she knows how to do it. Outsource cognition. Full trust in her. Well, it’s going to be like, it’s always going to be an operating thing. And I have trust that she will correct me and be an opposing voice when she feels it needs to be. And the opposite. And I think we also are capable of doing it at the right moment. In the right place. You know, same in a community like you first go to the person itself. And you’re not going to go on the stage to denounce them publicly instantly. I think we have that relationship with each other, at least to support each other publicly. But then be able to have to talk privately, to steer each other the right way and acknowledge that from each other. And I think, you know, that we find our paths very faultly with the evangelist. And, you know, I’m just lucky. I’ve got good genes, you know, it will be brilliant. Gentlemen and ladies, you know, it will be nice. Okay, this is the point where my perfection in the example doesn’t. I’m going to leave me with a little bit of hope here. Well, I’ll leave that up to God for you. So, you know, and in many ways, take that up with him. Like I said, we got to enjoy the struggle that will come as well. Like we got to have like a little bit of joy, you know, maybe not in the moment itself. But afterwards, if one of them had like a year of struggle towards the things that we all feel like you should have moved towards to. And, you know, it’s part of it, right? And sometimes it’s better to have, you know, one of the things we need to be very careful of with like our kids is like allowing them to learn how to discover. And that’s, you know, not by showing them the way it’s by asking them the questions and allow them to ask the questions. So I think you said you’d let them die, right? Not physically, but. Yeah, die to themselves, I guess. Oh, physically as well. Come on, they gotta be like muscles. And so how would you accompany that? Right. Like there’s a responsibility. There’s a place of vulnerability. And that’s even true in your relationship right now, right? Like where you have to provide the safe space, the container in which the transformation of the other can take place. And in some sense also encourage the leap of faith required to go where they need to go. Well, in many ways it is about the space you allow to be. And, you know, it’s not like, you know, you should give like a three year old kid a summerized word. So I have been told my kid will get a summerized word when they are three years old, because, you know, I’m always pushing my nephews a bit too far in a way that their parents are like. And but it’s like, you know, giving the right amount of space. And I’m sure we’re going to do that wrongly at times, but it’s keep paying attention and keep seeing if they find a well of life. And if they don’t seem to have that well of life to allow things to die for them, to not keep them too tied up in which you suffocate them slowly. Because the thing is the moment you’re really dying in a way, there’s no turning back. It’s not like you’re suddenly going to you’re going to resurrect it exactly the same way it was. That’s not going to happen. It’s gone. It is going away. So it’s better to just allow that to go in a good progression. And then help them with what’s coming up next. Yeah, like there’s something there and realizing what is happening and then accepting what is instead of trying to keep some something of the past alive while it’s already gone. Yeah, and an important thing, I guess, for that is to build a bigger home around that. So it’s like what I basically said as well as well, it’s like we had that little town which we eventually started to find our place and we knew the people. And then you have, you know, the volcano and, you know, the waters around you that you could all explore the other cities. But we always could return to our own place. And it’s that sort of, you know, as long as we built a good home for them with pillars, they feel they can always return to, they can also explore. And that means the house needs to transform along the way to accommodate that. Yeah, you need to build pillars. Yeah, you need to keep refining them, right? Like in some ways, you want to keep the spirit of the home intact. And for that, you need to keep refurbishing the house around you. So in many ways, like the whole family and the whole community you’re participating in needs to do the same thing altogether, but at different levels. Right, because in a way, if your family becomes completely isolated from the community that you were participating in, you’re not going for like finding new communities. And something like a child becomes struggling in your house as well. It’s going to be very hard for everybody. And there’s not suddenly a community in which you can retreat to and find strength in. And similar in other ways, it’s like if a community is struggling, but they have a few strong families, they might be able to pick up a little bit of extra burden at that time. Yeah, and to go back to collective sense making, right? Hopefully they’re… Or sacrifice their child to them. Yeah, they’re also able to pick up on things that you can’t pick up and find. They’re also able to pick up on things that you can’t pick up and vice versa. Yeah, that’s really important. If you can get that to work, that’s really beautiful. And I guess I would say ideal because I don’t think you can get much better, right? There’s always a much better, I guess. But at least you’re moving towards it all the time. So do you still feel like you want to highlight something? Like in many ways, it’s interesting, right? The place where I’m now, sometimes it’s not really fully sure if you’re fully at home. In some ways, I feel like I haven’t been exactly at the spot I was in. But at the same time, I also feel like I’m progressing towards a similar spot, like one that’s going to be more sustainable. Right, you’re adjusting still. Yeah, and in a weird way, I remember somebody I talked with, talked with Paul on his channel, and he had a similar story of traveling and finding his home and losing it in a way. And I could have said exactly the same thing as he did in that conversation, because eventually Paul asked him, can you return to it? Can you go back? Can you reclaim it in a way? And he was like, I will never be able to go back. I will never be able to get it again. And the moment he said that out loud, instead of me saying yes, I was like, I said out loud, like, not so sure. And in many ways, that was like to me, like, wait a minute. I know exactly, I was really sure that I could not return to that place again. And, you know, in many ways, I won’t, but the spirit of it itself and that life, I think I’m going to find it again. And I think it’s going to be even more sustainable this time, because I got more pillars. And I’m also feeling I’m finding more people and communities around me that will be more sustainable in being able to provide that for each other as well. Yeah, the thing that I realized when traveling was you take yourself with you, right? The lesson there is you got to fix that. What’s inside in order to be at home anywhere. Well, and sometimes the best thing or like something to do is like really settle moments of peace in between, like moments of stillness. Because it’s kind of easy when you have this sort of pain or lingering grief in a way to keep going, going, going, going and to not handle it fully. But it will eventually come. And I think by having a little bit more stillness throughout time in a way, you allow that to seep out in a more sustainable way. And in a more, you know, in an energy that you can probably steer towards something good. Because only then like I might have realized some of the things earlier, right? And I might have been more appreciative even then of the things I would be doing at that moment. Yeah, one of the ways I realized is if you’re so busy, like going out, being busy, right? Like, what are you afraid of missing? And like, what’s the thing that you’re actually doing that’s so important? Because you’re probably running from something, right? Like when the silence comes at you and you have to face the things that are there when the busyness isn’t. I notice it for myself when I’m like sitting on the patio and, you know, the other person and I’m like going to the bathroom by myself. The eagerness to grab your phone immediately. And I’m trying always to be like, you know, I’m trying to be like, and I’m trying always to withstand it nowadays. And then I’m just looking at people around me in a way. But when I see it at other tables, like you also see that motion. Everybody’s doing the first thing they do when the other person is off the table, take their phone. And I know for myself, I’m probably not even doing anything like interesting. I’m probably just going quickly on like reading the news that I read an hour ago as well. And you’re going to be distracting yourself from being present when that person is back. Because you’re going to have this thought in your head that you just inserted with your phone. Yeah, and it’s kind of like because it’s so weird to sit down alone. That feels uncomfortable. And like, what are you going to look at? Right. It’s really weird to just suddenly stare at the people next to you on the patio. Like your glass is there in front of you. Like your glass is there in front of you. You know, it’s weird if you think about how you’re drinking that. Like, you know, your drink in a way, like how your head moves. Like the one thing you should never think about is how you walk when you’re walking. Oh, oops. Like it’s so weird if you suddenly think about how your legs are moving when you’re walking. Because you suddenly feel like you’re walking really weird. And then you probably are like even more conscious about what people think about you. Well, the thing I learned is to enjoy the awkwardness. Well, that’s basically where you need to get to. Yeah, like there’s a learning potential in the awkwardness. And if you can see it, right, and if you can see the way that the awkwardness is influencing you and the way that you’re in the world and the other persons around you, how they’re influenced, then well, that’s the thing that you can look at, right? Like that’s the thing that you can relate to and you can learn from it. And you can even use that as a way of interacting and being of service to the people around you. Yeah, well sometimes you recognize that in other people. Like you see them doing something. Like I’ve had people come up to me when I was just reading them a book in a bar or something. I could never do it. And I’m just like, it’s really not that hard. Like you go pick up your book, you go to a place, you can sit down, you order and drink and read. But I understand what they mean. The perspective of it is really weird, but they somehow then see you sitting and they find it sort of like attractive. It’s kind of like, you know. Well, someone who can do what you can’t do, right? Like there’s something mysterious and appealing. Yeah, and that’s one of the things like, you know, it’s a good thing to pay attention to. Like if you see suddenly somebody like walking in the park, just feeding the dogs and you’re like, huh, you know. That’s very, very nice. I wish I could do that, but I always feel awkward when I throw the bread in there. You know, it’s probably one of the things you should be doing. You do it three times and it’s not awkward anymore. Yeah, there’s definitely something there where being open to what could be and embracing, trying to figure it out, right? Like wrestle with yourself. Like why can’t I do that? Is the reason that I don’t do that a good reason or is that just because I tell myself a story about the world? So I think we’re drawing to an end. Any lost thoughts? I think that was quite interesting. I hope other people find it interesting. I enjoyed it. So, well, I hope all people say I found this interesting in the comment section and then say why they found it interesting so that we can actually learn something from our experience. Thank you for being a guest, Bertie. And I will see everybody on the next episode of Unfolding the Soul.