https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=zA7CSppNhFA
But yeah, then kind of the Virgin Mary kind of appears, you know, oddly in this very masculine way at the end is as kind of this apex figure within this kind of spiritual test. And she’s kind of she’s kind of like, Yeah, she’s pretty terrifying. There’s something scary. Yeah, that’s okay. You have definitely have traditions in the orthodox church itself about, you know, aspects of the Virgin, which are, are kind of terrifying, like she’s the protector to like she has this she protects her child. So there’s something about that, you know, you, you take a icons of the Virgin on the wall of Constantinople when the wall when the city is being attacked, you know, there’s something about that. There’s a there is a kind of Mother Bear aspect to the to the to the Virgin as well. This is Jonathan Pesceau. Welcome to the symbolic world. Hello, everybody. I’m really excited to be here with Brandon Dayton. Brandon is an artist I know mostly as a graphic novelist. He made a he wrote a book which if you follow me on social media, you see me share it quite a few times. It’s called the Green Monk. And I’m going to be sharing it with you. It’s a really beautiful graphic novel about a young, let’s say, a young boy who is found finds himself in a Russian monastery. And there’s a whole kind of fantastic story which surrounds the graphic novel. It’s very it’s very beautiful and airy. The story is kind of told through the succession of panels and it it doesn’t need a lot of words. It really is this kind of beautiful flow of story. So I’m really happy to have them with me to be able to talk about about the graphic novel and his his inspirations what would brought him to make it so brand and thanks for talking to me. Yeah, super, super happy to be here. And so tell us a little bit about what was the, what was the impetus behind this book. Oh man, that’s such a good question, because there are like, there’s always like little ideas that bubble up that are interesting ideas or images, you know, and so there’s, I can like trace different threads of like, very early on having this idea of like a blade of grass as a sword. And then having some sort of, I remember at some point, having it be some sort of like my chance to do Star Wars the way I wanted to do it. I’m going to be like okay I’m going to tell the story of stars I want to tell it but I’m going to put it in this other fantasy and instead of lightsabers it’s going to be like this like grass sword. And that kind of faded away. But then, um, when I was introduced to Tarkovsky’s Andre rubel, that was like when things kind of clicked, and this is like going way back to college like as this like first time I saw that was in college. And I have this character and I was like, Oh yeah, I want to put this character in that world. And that’s where things like really started to fall together, like come together for me. But it is also like you talk about impetus and then there’s just like a feeling there’s a certain feeling about a story that starts to emerge. And there was something about this character, and like what this character represented to me that just really got to the core of like what really mattered to me, you know, I mean if I could put it in other terms it felt, there’s something that felt like secret about it to me. And actually remember I was. This is actually I was, I was finally, finally out of it takes me a long time to make art. So this is like, I was out of college, and I was, I was newly married and going through like therapy. I remember having this thing where I was like, I have all these ideas all these stories I want to do I don’t know what to do with my life at that point is, I was like wanting to make movies and thinking about doing screenplays. And I remember going through this process with this therapist, where it was kind of like, Well yeah but which of these things like really, are you most drawn to or feels like most important and meaningful to you. And it was like, oh yeah I have this story about this month. And I really feel like it has to be a comic book, you know. And so once I landed on that I’m like, oh yeah, this is this is what like I really feel this like warmth in my heart about this thing. I kind of put everything to the side. And I was like, okay, no more trying to make movies, I’m just going to make this comic book and see what happens. And that was the very first mini comic and that’s so the very first mini comic of Green Monk was was the product of that. And so, how, what was the reaction because I guess you came back to it a little bit later to the same story and kind of put it back together. Yeah, so I mean I’ve been trying to. I mean, I wanted to be a big famous amazing artists story telling some way. So I’d always been like trying to make art and putting it out on the internet and stuff I’ve been to conventions and nothing really ever connected. And then I made this book. And I started going to connection conventions with it and things like that and the response to it was like fantastic. It was like more than I could have expected, I was like, oh wow, this is so yeah, if you like kind of follow your heart, do the stuff that it seems like most important, there’ll be a good response. So it’s to this day it’s the thing that’s sold the best at conventions. I mean, I remember I go to conventions, I’d sell like 60 copies of this and this is as me being an artist no one knew about, you know, I had no name no previous experience with comics. And I would, for me, it seemed like I was selling quite a bit of those and I’ve never sold stuff like that I have a volume of books, you know, ever since then, either. But it also got within that time it got nominated for a y’all said the Elsa top 10 teams for book list award and was selected for their list in 2011. So, that was a really cool honor because it was the only self published book on their list that year. And it was just cool that it got into the hands of the right people and I had a chance to talk with them and they’re just like, yeah, we really want to support stuff that’s not coming from larger, larger publishers. So that happened, but you know I was also in the midst of working and trying to support a family and whatever the next step was there. And it seemed very obvious to me, and I was, I was working a job as a concept artist within the video game industry which is very demanding. So it was, it was a big challenge to put my energies into making art during the day and then to try to come home and, and try to move things forward with the comic books, you know, yeah, make more art like make art in your job and then in your spare time, it’s like exhausting. Yeah, and I’m not, I’ve just kind of come to realize that I’m just not, I don’t have the same worth work ethic as other artists out there. And so it just, it just like it really burnt me out trying to do that. And then finally I got to the point, I was working at Disney interactive in Salt Lake City. And I just was making tiny progress on on the latest book, Letter to Martyrs. And I finally talked with my wife and I’m like, you know, I’d like to just quit Disney and just, just work on making this book. And I was like, what would be the best way to do it? We had some savings. My wife was like, no, let’s not go through the savings, I’ll start working and you can work on the book. And so, the next, I think, four or five years was me working on the book slowly so. Wow. And I was dealing with all sorts of like depression and other issues as I was like, like trying to do that. But at the end of the day, I did finish it. And I was very happy with how it turned out and just feels like a very authentic, you know, true part of myself. And I’m kind of proud of what it is. And it was like well reviewed. I mean, there’s lots of people that I respect that have spoken well of it and so that’s been great. I’m curious about some of the elements like because there are some of the elements which are obvious in terms of the storytelling and there’s some which are just, it’s like, how can I say this? It’s very mysterious, let’s say. Some elements of the story are quite clear and straightforward and some of the elements are quite mysterious. And so I’m wondering if, so for example, there’s a scene with all these like giant demons, for example, like these huge kind of giant demons. And so I was wondering if you’re pulling from certain mythologies or if it was really just your imagination that you were kind of pulling from. Yeah, with this book, the fantastical elements of it, it was much more like kind of intuitive, kind of imaginative thing. There was definitely kind of a flavor I wanted to that. You talked about kind of the mysterious quality of it. And I, yeah, just kind of like esoteric feeling. Particularly there’s kind of some moments where like he’s given kind of these clues or these like messages or signs and you’re not really clear exactly what they mean or how they fit together. It’s just, it’s more of like the feeling that I wanted to get from that. And kind of this like descent into this kind of spiritual realm. I just, I really enjoyed. And the ambiguity of like, what is, like, what is dream and what is reality is something that was really interesting to me as I was doing this as well. Yeah, and there’s a sense in which the main character is some kind of, like you talked about Star Wars, it makes sense. Like you get a sense in which this character is somehow chosen, but is also possibly a dark figure. It’s not clear. You know, it is kind of that Luke Skywalker idea or the Skywalker idea. And there’s that wonderful moment where he chooses his weapon. I think that’s probably the obviously the high moment where it almost feels like he’s being forced to become what he is. He’s resisting, like the whole book. He’s just kind of, he’s resisting one way or another certain things. He’s reacting to different things around him. And then that’s the moment where even in his own, he resists, like picking the weapon. And then that ultimately would lead them to end up having the weapon that he didn’t want to have in the first place. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, did you, so had you already thought about what the sequel would be like, did you kind of plan it down your head or you were just kind of, you just kind of finished it and you were, you were, because it feels like when it ends, like it, like this book has to have a second. I know, I know it’s really frustrating because I think it’s very unlikely that a sequel is ever going to happen to this book. I mean, I understand. I understand it. I mean, especially if it took you, it’s interesting that you’re saying it took you like five years to work through it. Because I can see it when you say it, I can see it because every panel seems like it has been completely thought out. But also, but it’s still, it doesn’t feel labored at all because I think it’s probably because of your drawing style. There’s something about it which feels like it’s just flowing through like the entire story just kind of flows through. And the panels are flowing almost like, yeah, like there’s water rolling down and you’re just, you’re just kind of tumbling into this story, especially with the character kind of falling into imaginary spaces and then coming back out and everything. There’s that whole thing going on. Yeah, talking to you really makes me want to make comics again. That’s great. If I can do that. That’s awesome. We need you making comics. We want you making more comics. Because it’s interesting because one of the things that is funny to me is like, how much did you know about, let’s say Russian Orthodoxy before you, you made this? I knew it. I knew Andrew Rublev and that was it. Right, right, right. So I read, I did a little bit of reading after that, like a lot of Wikipedia stuff. I did another little short story that’s connected, kind of tangentially connected to Greenmurk. It actually kind of connects the mini comic to Blood of the Martyrs. So it’s kind of the one connecting thread is this little like four page story I did that’s much more based on Russian mythology. It’s like, it’s straight out of a Russian myth. But I kind of used, I had kind of two pieces from each of the stories that kind of end up in there. So that was it. Yeah, I did some reading and that definitely kind of influenced how I looked at it. But there’s other things I’ve been learning afterwards that have been really interesting that have given me like more insight on to, which sounds funny to say, but you know, reading more about like Eastern Orthodox traditions of contemplative practice and how that affected those communities and things like that that have been. But I’ve kind of said before that I’m kind of like, I’m kind of like my knowledge of like Russian history and religion is kind of like similar to Sergio Leone’s understanding of like the American West. It’s kind of like this beautiful caricature, let’s say. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah. No, I definitely that I mean I definitely because I definitely got that in the book because I think you might not know I’m Orthodox myself and then I’m actually an iconographer. That’s my prime, let’s say, work. And so it was interesting to kind of go through and see your interpretation, even of the icons and kind of how you brought different elements together and how you kind of interpreted the iconographic tradition. So I find that I found that very fascinating. So there’s, because even like, so there’s a sense in which obviously you have this feminine character. Yeah, that repeats, let’s say, through the story, right. It starts with the boy’s mother, but then appears in almost like a mythological way. And then it’s kind of revealed at the end. But, and so, were you trying to, because the sense I get is that there was something of the Virgin Mary in that imagery, but you’re also trying to pull in more, almost like this goddess figure that was kind of being pulled into the story at the same time. So I’m curious a little bit about that in terms of that, that that feminine, the repetition of that feminine character through the story. Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s interesting. It’s, it’s a, that’s one of the things that’s really exciting me about how the story worked out and a lot of this, some stuff is kind of intentional but a lot of the stuff afterwards you look back at it and you’re like, Oh my gosh, this is like seeing these huge parts of my psyche I wasn’t aware of. Yeah, I know. Because it’s very much a story about like masculinity, as far as this boy being raised in this this monastery and this particular form of like spiritual masculinity. You know, and I was I was raised Mormon, so that has its own flavor as far as like what does it mean to be a man and be like spiritual. I mean, I think that that sense of like, being in being raised in a house that is house the fathers, where you’re just surrounded by all these fatherly figures, you know, is really interesting, and I’ve actually been, I’ve been criticized, I mean I’ve had a few people criticize me to be like there’s like no women in this story, you know, but then it’s like the feminine is very much a part of this story, as far as like, obviously his mother, as this as this figure. And then, you know, this like connection this balance between like paganism and, and, you know, orthodoxy, and how they kind of unite in his person. But yeah, then kind of the Virgin Mary kind of appears, you know, oddly in this very masculine way at the end is as kind of this apex figure within this kind of spiritual test. And then she’s kind of, she’s kind of like, yes, she’s pretty terrifying. There’s something very scary. Yeah, that’s okay. You have definitely have traditions in the orthodox church itself about, you know, aspects of the Virgin which are are kind of terrifying like she’s the protector to like she has this she protects her child. There’s something about that you know you, you take a icons of the Virgin on the wall of Constantinople when the wall when the city is being attacked you know there’s something about that. There’s a there is a kind of Mother Bear aspect to the to the to the Virgin as well. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it’s really one of these things that as I look back on it, it’s so delightful to look back on it and just as a map of my own like interior world. And obviously those things always map to some sort of greater like, you know, archetypal realm, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that’s one of those interesting things and seeing how like the masculine and the feminine, kind of, kind of play out in it so yeah, but I think you’re, I think it, the way that you treat the feminine characters in it is really, I think it’s very powerful, you know, because I think that’s the image right now we’re trying, you know, every story is always trying to now to replace the hero with a girl like it’s like every year as he replaced with a girl. But there’s something about that which is artificial and there’s a, there’s a missing of what the feminine can be in a story, even a story of adventure is a more masculine, has a more masculine trope. But, you know, the image of the, the woman who is there as this kind of hidden guiding principle, and is also like this, this mysterious agent which is pulling you forward, you know, I always use the image of in the Lord of the Rings movies, which is like, he’s not, she’s not, she doesn’t feel like she’s important in like, how much presence he has in the story, but she, she cuts to the chase and is like, this like secret figure that is motivating the characters to go to actually go on the quest, you know, and so I felt that definitely in your book as well where this feminine character is always hiding in the background, and is there to kind of pull the, the, the boy, you know, into his, into becoming what he’s going to be. Yeah, and her figure, I mean, his mother kind of reappears as this mystical guide, like in his visions, and yeah, she is always kind of pulling him away from like the realm of law. Like that’s kind of her like thing is he’s in this this monastery that’s all about law and you know order and all this other stuff, and she’s constantly like, okay, there’s this other thing. Yeah, I don’t know. So you grew up, you grew up, you grew up Mormon, do you still consider yourself Mormon or not at all. Yeah, so that’s been an interesting thing I left the LDS church which is kind of the largest denomination probably about eight years ago. Okay, but, which is a very, very painful process when you leave, like a religion, but I’ve come to a point now where like that identity is really important to me. So I say that I consider myself Mormon, but it’s a very like individualistic, like way that I define that like it’s just this thing that like feels right for me, like in a way that connects me to place, and, you know, certain people. And I haven’t I haven’t like figured out all the details of what that means as far as like how it affects how I live or whatever but yeah it’s something that’s still very important to me. Yeah, but so you don’t you’re not part of like a community, though you kind of live it individually. Yeah, yeah, although I don’t know much about I don’t know much about Mormon Church so so I’m just kind of asking these questions. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s one of these things where, like, I believe that I feel like Mormonism and like Mormonism is actually like an ethnicity. But it’s also it’s so because of like Mennonites or yeah user Mennonites yeah, the way that it’s, it kind of emerged and kind of evolved, you know, is very isolated in the Rocky Mountains. And it was this one organization that really kind of like tied everyone together this one faith. And so I think now I like nowadays it’s really hard for people to separate those two things and to be like, oh, you can be Mormon and not be a member of this church is something that I don’t think people see as a possibility, which I think is kind of a shame because there are people that leave and they’re just like, okay, like, what the fuck am I now that I’m not this thing, you know. So, I’d be interested in a community of, of, of Mormons that that aren’t connected to the eldest church but I don’t know what that looks like. Community of ex Mormons or like, let’s say, individualist Mormons or something. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if any of that exists. For sure. I don’t know. So but I’m wondering about because I don’t, the, the, the book, there’s something very mystical, definitely about, like, just the whole approach of the book and so is that something, how do you perceive that in relationship to your own path, let’s say to your own, to the way that you’re living out your own. Yeah, you’re on spiritual path, let’s say. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I look back at it now and it seems like there’s a very clear message in it for me that I wasn’t aware of. And there’s, there’s very much this sense of, I mean, it comes back to kind of this like owning, owning your spiritual path. And then there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this, there’s this The kind of end is very interesting too because it is kind of like what comes next. And there’s something there in that truth of kind of the unknown, like him walking out into the winter as far as, you know, eventually does take responsibility and he does like take action. And even though he has like made this vow to never take a life, he ends up, you know, saving his monastery by, you know, killing all of these invaders. And so that’s a very exciting question to me is like where you end up when you decide to, you know, take responsibility for your path in life. And it’s not simply like, fuck the monastery, you know, because for him, he’s like, he’s still wearing his robes. It’s like this still matters for him. You know, it’s interesting. I was really surprised too about the ending because there’s something you might not know about the Orthodox ethos of war, which is that on the one hand in the Orthodox tradition, there’s a sense in which war, violence and combat is inevitable that it’s going to happen. There is, there is to some extent, the possibility that you could attain something that there is, it’s not completely devoid of, of value completely, but it’s also not totally sanctioned. And so for example, someone who, a warrior that goes out to war, when they returned from war, they’re barred from communion for a certain amount of time. They actually have to go to confession and they have to do penance for their combat. But it’s not like they’re saying what you did, you know, they’re recognizing the value of the combat, but they’re also realizing that there’s something about it, which is due to our circumstance. Like it’s like, it’s due to this fallen world in which we are. And so you have to do some penance and you have to, you have to atone for the killing that you participated in. So it’s just interesting because I don’t think you probably didn’t know that, but there’s something that comes out in the end of the book as something that where it’s like, he doesn’t want to kill anybody. He doesn’t want to be violent. And then he’s forced to do it out of love for his fellow monks. But because of that, he, it’s almost like he also now has to leave the monastery. So it’s like a thing where he saved the monastery by doing this. He engages in something, which is like a trespass. So he has to be exiled, but he did it for them. And so there’s like, it’s an interesting, it definitely is in terms of narrative. It’s a very powerful moment, I thought. Yeah, thank you. That’s a really interesting perspective. When I kind of made the decision that, oh, these are like pacifist monks, that was a real speculation. I’m just like, I don’t know if that’s something that ever existed, you know, within like Eastern Orthodoxy. I know it’s existed. Monks are not supposed to fight. Like that’s for sure. Orthodoxy are not supposed to take up weapons. There have been weird exceptions to that, but they’re definitely not supposed to fight. Yeah. Yeah. But then, yeah, there is also, there is also at least the archetype of like the warrior monk, which is, which is. Yeah, it’s more of a, that’s more of a, it’s definitely more of a Western archetype. Like the idea of the, but it’s funny because you have that in your, in the book, don’t you? You have these, you have an image of these, these monks that they were Western, like warrior monks, I guess, who kind of gave up their ways to become, to become Eastern monks. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And so, and so then it’s like, then he, so it’s like you come to a point where now this, this young character is going in that direction. It’s like he’s going back in that direction. And so it’s like. In the opposite direction. Yeah. In terms of narrative, I just thought it was so, it was so ripe with, with possibility, definitely. Yeah. And that’s one of those things where it’s just like, man, it’s just like a tribute to how important it is to follow like intuition when you’re like working through this, these things. Cause there’s never part of me that’s just like, here’s what my morals are. And I’m going to put it down in this book, but as, as you work through these things, it’s just like, there’s something about this that just feels right. And I don’t, I still don’t even know why. Like, I feel like I should be giving you an explanation about like what it means. That’s okay. I can, I can, I can, I can say sometimes it’s better when someone else finds the meaning. Cause it’s, you seem like to be really an artist in the sense you said, like artists are more like a lot of artists are more, they’re more like tuning forks, right? Like they get, they get the pattern, right? They can tune into the, to the harmony and they put it down, but it’s like, you know, you don’t necessarily know all the implications of what that is when you do it, when you’re doing it. But, but I do think it speaks to something as far as like, like how I feel about morality, like in the sense there’s a feeling in the conclusion, just about like morality is this living thing that you experience. And it’s not necessarily like a, a list of rules. And it’s like you, like you said, there’s something about where you talk about like, yes, you can go to like circumstances bring you to war, but then there needs to be some sort of penance at the same time for what you’re done and kind of the complexity of, of morality. It’s there’s something about that that just tastes, tastes right to me, I guess. Yeah. So tell me a bit about in terms of the art, let’s say I’m just curious about who you see as your influences in the, in the work. Do you have influences or you’re like, I certainly do. It, I can remember at least when I was doing Green Monk, that it was something that, that changed, changed quite frequently. And like, I am like struggling to even, even remember some of the names right now. I’m thinking of artists and I can think of their arts. But I mean, like, is it more, is it coming from the world of traditional art, from fine art, or just from comics? Or was it a mix of different influences? Lots of different things. One that comes up to me that was really big for me is Christophe Blaine. And he’s, he’s a French artist that I was first introduced to him. He did, did part of Dungeon. He was part of the Dungeon series. And he is just this really expressive, very fluid artist. And I just loved his layouts. I loved the way he like laid out pages and the dynamism in his stuff. And I remember that being a big influence on when I was doing this. And there’s other, there’s other artists that names escape me that affected like how I was trying to like ink and stuff like that. Yeah, no worries if you don’t, if you don’t remember that at the moment. But for sure, the inking is, is an important part of the style because it has, it really has this kind of loose fluid feeling to it, which, which helps in the, this fluidity of the story itself that I was saying, where it’s like, it almost feels like on the, you could almost read, it’s interesting because like, if you wanted to, you could read the book in like 15 minutes, right? You could just kind of flip through, but then you go back and then you just slowly go through all the, all the subtlety of the changes and the character growing up and all these little reactions. And then you can spend hours with it, just going through. So it’s, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting that a book can be that way, because I could, I could, I can really see it. Like it just flows like water all the way through. Yeah. Yeah. I love hearing that. That’s, that’s like my experience with it. That’s one of the really satisfying experiences of that is having this sense of like, of flow, like the way, like I did this thing where when I would finish a section, I would kind of do it in chunks. When I would finish a section, I would lay out all the pages on my floor and like stand up on my couch and just like, how all the pages kind of went together. And I love that way of thinking about comics. I mean, you can certainly think about them as panel, like each individual panel, but I love this idea that the subtle changes between each panel, how each panel connects and how it becomes this big whole. And that was definitely a lie for me with color. Like the coloring of this book was something where I was thinking very, very carefully about how like color like transition from, from panel to panel and how that kind of tied everything together. But yeah, there’s something about that as far as like the flow of the story that, that just feels like really important to me, particularly with this book. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I definitely, I could, I could definitely see it, you know. And so, yeah, I think, I think like for me, I’m just happy that the book exists and I hope, I really hope that, that, that, I mean, if we don’t see another Green Monk book, then at least something from you, because I, because I really think it’s, it’s wonderful. And I encourage everybody to get it. Look, Green Monk, it’s, it’s, you can get it on Amazon. It’s very reasonable. And it’s, and it’s, it’s great for kids too. Like even kids, it’s like good. My, my, all my kids read it and they, they really liked it. You know, they didn’t have to, you don’t need, like you, you can get all the subtlety of the changes, but you can also kind of read it as a fun story about, you know, this, this kind of a rebel, not rebellious, but like rambunctious young man who kind of finds his way. So, so thanks for it. Thanks for the book. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish you the best as you kind of figure it out, like what you’re going to do next. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And probably some more comics at some point in the future. Yeah. Great.