Islam and the Possibility of Peace ｜ Mohammed Hijab

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I Understand that and I’m not even saying that there’s something exceptional in that regard about Islam Although the rate at which it happened was quite remarkable, but it still it presents us with a problem. Doesn’t it? I mean everyone it presents everyone with a problem and the problem is well for example the problem is reconciling the idea of turning the other cheek with the idea of a just war or defensive war or an expansive war for Matter and of course that issue is relevant to Islam because Islam exploded Outward and produced the biggest empire the world had ever seen in the in the space of a few short centuries So that well so then you ask well, what’s the spirit? What is the spirit that animated that and is that attributable to the Islamic doctrines themselves? I don’t know the answer to that. No, let me tell you the answer to that Okay, and this is what I want to tell you conclusively and this will help build bridges Honestly because we can maintain the warlord thesis we can maintain the expansionist thesis, but here’s what I’ll tell you Islam has a has a capability to be expansive and it also has a capability of making peace treaties and It does and it should do whatever’s in its best interest just like every country should do ever since best interest I Know everyone I’m pleased today to have as my guest discussant Muhammad hijab and This discussion has been postponed a number of times because of illness and I’m very glad that we’re able to do it today And I thank him for his patience in continuing to pursue this and being willing to talk to me despite I think being delayed three times which is one more time than is unforgivable But in any case how many hijab is an author a student of comparative religion and a philosopher of religion He’s the co-founder of Sapiens Institute and as a researcher and instructor for that organization He has a BA in politics and a master’s degree in history He’s acquired a second master’s in Islamic studies from the school of Oriental and African studies He’s had this also completed a third master’s degree in applied theology from the University of Oxford Where he focused on the philosophy of religion in applied settings? he’s now doing his PhD in the philosophy of religion on the contingency argument for God’s existence and Many people I was looking a while back For people to talk about Islam with and many people Recommended that I talked to Muhammad hijab and so I talked to Mustafa Akhil a couple of weeks ago He’s known more I would say on the liberal front And so I’m very pleased to be able to talk to Muhammad hijab today. Thank you very much for joining me today It’s like it’s very good of you to put up with the delays. So no, no, no, no Thank you for having me. Honestly, it was a pleasure well, so I’m gonna ask some some really basic questions because the the it’s very difficult to understand another culture from the outside and You and you also have for as an outsider You have no idea how much you don’t know about what you don’t know even you’re blind to your own ignorance And so I’m going to start with basic questions. I don’t I wouldn’t say that I have a tangible understanding of Islam I mean I have some understanding of Christianity I’ve been able to get the sense of Christianity at a reasonably deep level I would say at least compared to other things I know and I’ve kind of felt the same way about certain aspects of Buddhism and Taoism, but as a religious System a system of thought Islam has remained relatively opaque to me despite the fact that I’ve done a reasonable amount of historical reading and so What do you what what is it? What is it in terms of practice and belief that are absolutely core as far as you’re concerned to? practicing the Islamic faith Well, the first thing is I think we should start with the bare bones basics And the bare bones basics is first to say that we believe in god And the kind of god we believe in is one god Worthy of worship. In fact, the quran makes a series of arguments Rational arguments for why we believe in the type of god that we believe in For example in chapter 52 verse 35 of the quran it says Were they created from nothing or by nothing or were they themselves the creators of themselves did they create the heavens and the earth? They have no certainty in other words the quran is Hinting here at the fact that it’s impossible for something to come from nothing And it’s impossible also for something to give rise to itself And so the universe for example, if we take this as an example couldn’t have come from nothing and it couldn’t have created itself It couldn’t be self-generating and or self-maintaining And they can’t be a world. In fact, the quran would indicate There cannot be a world with only dependent things things that require Other things in order to exist Add infinity and so what is required outside of the series of dependent things is something which is independent Which all things depend upon and which itself depends upon nothing and this is what the quran refers to as a samad Or the idea of god being self-sufficient Um and independent so the idea of it’s a prime move it’s a prime mover argument and you think it’s a kind of A lot of why do you think that why do you think that the same argument that you put forward in relationship to the generation of the universe? Can’t be put forward as an objection in relationship to god You know because you’re you you make a logical case that something can’t come from nothing and something can’t create itself But you move you from a philosophical perspective this isn’t a religious critique from a philosophical critique Perspective you just move the problem back one step. What advantages do you think there are to moving the problem back one step? Or am I mischaracterizing it? Well, I’ll tell you what Dr. Joe Peterson what you said is very similar to what richard dawkins said in a debate With the archbishop of the then archbishop of canterbury and he said that well if you if you have And he said this debate he made this argument in oxford and and he said that if you look at the universe Well, if you’re saying that god has made the universe in this way Then your god who’s more complicated and he would add this layer of complexity. Yes This your god is more complicated would require it even greater He would require even greater explanation You’re the greater god. Yeah. Yeah, so really interestingly antony kenny Who who’s an agnostic himself is a philosopher and agnostic He came in and he said well actually take a look at this You’ve got an electric razor which is made up of many different component parts And you have a cut throat razor which is made up of one part And he said although the the electric razor is more complicated It’s it serves less functions than the cut throat razor because the cut throat razor can cut your throat and it can also cut an apple for example And so it’s a fallacy to assume that just because something is complicated Or that something has many features and attributes that thing itself It requires an explanation and in fact if we had an infinite rigorous of such explanations and obviously that would lead to a kind of absurdity So even you know, well-meaning atheists and agnostics in the field realize The redundancy and the fallacity and the argument that is put forward by the likes of richard dawkins who Who said who said that kind of thing and I would also add to that one point the argument from composition Which is usually a corollary to the composite to the contingency argument Usually is made in the following way that everything that is made of parts Is contingent that the universe or say a multiverse is made up parts. Therefore a universe or the universe And all the multiverse is contingent The the parts that we are talking about Mereologically are things that can be attached and detached So that doesn’t apply to god classical theism doesn’t say that god is made of parts the same way as human beings are or as Universes are or multiverses are and so and in fact the quran hints at this itself It says that let me call a car for so work for other like That the one who created you and composed you and configured you in any form that he wished he put you together And so the fact that you have such configuration in the universe Indicates that the fact that you have an external sorting agent That has has particularized the universe in a certain way and that has composed the universe in a certain way So the the argument really is That things which are made of attachable and detachable parts that those things are contingent that doesn’t apply to god on any Theistic paradigm now what we would say though Sorry to kind of drag this on a little bit is that this would disqualify something like the trinity from being true And in fact the quran this is the islamic position Uh is vehement in its opposition towards a triune god. So for example in chapter 23 verse 91 It says That god hasn’t taken a son and he doesn’t have any gods with him If that had been the case each god would have taken what he has created and they would have tried to dominate one another The idea therefore that there can be more than one all-powerful entity is an inconceivable and Unintelligible idea from the islamic paradigm. So it’s seen as Um problematic to say the least or conceptually impossible To say even more to suggest that something like a trinity can be true When it’s talking about for example a mary and joe mary and jesus it says Something very simple can I at cool any time that both of them used to eat food? So in other words the impossibility of something limited like jesus a man being god at the same time being unlimited Because the definition of god is that he’s unlimited is all power. Do you think that there’s a divine spark in human beings? No, but we don’t think there’s any kind of divinity at all Islam is categorical about this because the way we define divinity is extremely strict We say that the divine attributes of god are specific only to god So nothing what’s the characteristic element of the human relationship with god? So what’s the central what’s the central? What’s the central? Um, you say structure of value within a human being that makes them worthy of respect say In the sight of god or worthy of value in the sight of god the quran states We have We have dignified the child of adam so that we do believe in something called human exceptionalism We do believe that human being has been specialized or specified among all other things in creation To be to have free will for example to to have a personal relationship with god To have a loving relationship with god people don’t realize this especially from the christian tradition But one of the names of god from the islamic tradition is that he’s the loving one al wadood in arabic in the quran as well So we we believe that the relationship that human beings should have with god is a loving relationship But it’s it’s one of submission. This is the main thing islam doesn’t mean peace islam actually means submission Islam comes from the root arabic word is to slam And what it means is submission and really what the picture is in the islamic cosmology is that everything in the universe is submitting to god Everything the laws of nature have been placed there by the lawmaker, which is god and so So we as human beings are volitional we have free we do believe in free will but we also believe in a theological compatibilism And so that a kind of predetermination is actually one of our pillars of faith to believe in that So in that sense we have to voluntarily Submit to god in the same way that everything else in creation is and what does what does that submission mean? What that means is that all the prophets and messengers came before time? So this is the meta narrative of islam abraham came moses came jesus came and all of them came with exactly the same message And that message is to worship to believe in one god and to worship in only one god And to do that you have to follow a guidance So each and every single one of those messengers they came with we believe in our narrative They came with two things effectively. They came with a message which is to worship god meaning to submit to his laws and also With with some kind of evidence base to suggest that they are prophets So some of these stories would have been known obviously to you you’ve done a biblical series So I know you’re very aware of those stories. We have very similar stories like in moses abraham jesus But they are slightly different. Those stories are slightly different. In fact, sometimes radically different Especially considering some new testament kind of narratives And so what the the the thread that joins or the flesh that joins all of these kind of Messengers and prophets is that they all came with one fundamental message which is to believe one god worship one god We believe that the prophet okay, so hold hang on. I i’m still not understanding this exactly Okay, i’m not sure what you mean by belief like the way you laid that out was in some sense propositional Right, you made a you made a logical argument for the existence of god but yeah, you you you take the existence of god as as given in some sense to begin with because of your faith and Then you provide your belief with a rational Argument, but it wasn’t derived from a rational argument And so I don’t so does it when you talk about belief? Do you mean belief in a set of propositions about the nature of god and and if you do or don’t what? What do you believe and how would you separate out that belief from what you term as worship? Right. So actually there’s there’s one thing that ought to be known that in islamic theology We believe in something called the fitra which is an innate instinct to believing in god And now i’m not sure if you’re aware of the the work so why bother why bother with the propositional arguments then? It’s don’t I mean they just seem like a side a side venture, you know to argue with science Some scholars have said that in islam. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. No, no. Yep In fact some modern day Philosophers of religion have that kind of a stance like elvin planting god. He seems quite You know agnostic about the old thing I mean we can the thing is what we’re saying is it would be committing something like the naturalistic fallacy To suggest that just because something is the case or there is all fallacy maybe Just because something is the case that ought to be the case. So in order to prove The the it’s a demonstrative proof for those who are in what we call shack or doubt And this but the truth is as as you’ve mentioned And as in the literature like for example, justin barrett Has this in his cognitive? Psychological or cognitive science literature. I’m not sure if you’ve come across his stuff But basically, yeah, basically what he says is that we have an innate His words exactly receptivity to believing in god in 2011 the the oxford anthropological society They’ve done a huge study of 32 000 children and what they found is that children Innately and intuitively instinctively have a belief of a higher power of some sort Now they are born with that belief and in fact in one of the papers In in justin barrett’s book. He literally mentions the fitra or the islamic theological concept of an instinct in believing in god What’s his last name? barrett How do you spell that? I think double r double t I believe Justin barrett, okay, that’s useful. Yeah. Well, it just strikes me that in you see the problem with debating people like richard dawkins about the existence of god is that he will Formulate the argument in propositional terms and then force the person so to speak um, I don’t imply any malice on his part, but as soon as you accept that the The battle is to be won on propositional grounds You’ve already accepted a certain definition of god and I think you lose the argument instantly. I think the the argument For instinct something like that Is is much more powerful because one of the things i’m led to to wonder when you laid out your argument is Well, what what purpose does belief in god serve or your faith in god? Let’s say and I think belief see it’s also really interesting to try to distinguish between belief in something and faith in something Like if you have imagine you have faith in the good And so how do you demonstrate that? Well, you believe that good is more powerful than evil You believe that you should act in a manner. That’s that’s that’s uh, Appropriate to the good and so then you act that way and that’s the faith The faith is demonstrated in the actions. Yes, but it’s not exactly It’s not exactly propositional and you know, partly because I would say if you look at good and evil, for example It’s not that easy to make the case that Good is more dominant or more powerful than evil all things considered in human affairs Now I think it is but you know what? I mean, you can’t make a compelling propositional case that that’s absolutely true But you can reflect your faith in your actions The thing is you mentioned richard dawkins I wrote as part of the sapiens institute we wrote a small booklet called the scientific delusions of the new atheists and We refuted him on the on these kind of things if you read the god delusion He literally spends five pages of hundreds Talking about the cosmological argument and I think too talking about the teleological argument or the fine-tuning argument um, I do think that Not much work has been done by new atheists In new atheists meaning like, you know the four horsemen or whatever In trying to actually tackle these arguments and sometimes when they’re on debates with other philosophers of religion I don’t think they from my perspective at least they don’t actually provide a satisfactory defense Yeah, well the interstate argument is an interesting one because yeah, it seems to me that part of the and this is why I was pressing you pressing you to some degree on the issue of the definition of worship is that I don’t see much difference between the instinct to worship and the instinct to imitate and I do believe that there’s compelling evidence psychological and biological. Yeah that we human beings have a remarkably strong instinct to imitate And the question is well, what is it that we’re oriented to imitate? And I think we’re like if you look at the developmental psychology literature, for example It seems quite it seems to be the case that if a child has an intact nervous system and they have one or two good models around them That they’ll be drawn towards those good models and imitate them and and develop quite healthily even under rather stressful Circumstances, yeah, and you know that instinct to imitate also underlies phenomenon phenomena like the experience of awe and and the experience of charisma and that charisma you know has an effect on attentional function and on the proclivity to behave and so I think the propositionalized arguments deliver the religious Ideas over to the propositional camp and that’s dominated already by scientists in many ways. It’s it’s a losing battle I don’t think it’s the right one. So worship you you you just so okay So one thing the west and islam agree on although I think islam is part of the west by the way because we’re all people Of the book, I mean the triune god in the christian sense is still subordinate to a higher order unity and so And so there is a powerful movement towards monotheism in judaism and christianity and islam and that seems to be a point of some Agreement. We’re also all three societies are also people who’ve made a decision collectively in some mysterious manner That a book should sit at the basis of culture A specific book that’s been aggregated in in a strange way in a mysterious way And so we also agree on that And so that’s you know, that’s a starting place at least and obviously there’s been a lot of Interpenetration of ideas between islam and judaism and christianity I mean the prophets in in islam are the same prophets that go through the three major western monotheistic religions And so that’s a fair bit of commonality Yes, and so that that’s a good place to start building bridges and so so okay, so islam is stringently monotheistic And then the submission idea what exactly I mean god is ineffable in in in a sense and so What does submission mean exactly? Right and how is that related to worship and how is that related to the good? Let’s say on a practical level Right, so I think what you said before there was a point you made about defining faith through action And I think that we would strongly agree with that and that’s that’s what we believe Our definition of faith Is what you what you basically believe in the heart say on the tongue and do with your with your actions That’s that’s like a definition of faith faith for us or iman the idea of iman In terms of in terms of the good now, there are different conceptions in islam of the good Uh, but the main thing is we believe that god is good quite similar to what christians believe and therefore He wants good for human beings And that the injunctions of god are also good in terms of submission And this is extremely important here Submission can only be done Through revelation that that is our position that position is that submission is actually impossible without a guidance and the guidance We believe obviously is the quran But we also acknowledge the we also acknowledge the torah the original torah that was sent to moza The moses and the original injeel or the gospel that was sent to jesus But what we have is we can call it a doctrine of taharif which means corruption So what we believe is that what happened is with these books you’ve had Basically corruption happened to them. So we don’t know what is Uh, what is part of that book and what is not part of that book? We don’t know exactly what jesus said and what isn’t because there is no clear chain of narration back to jesus christ Um, but going back to the point of submission Submission is to follow the prophets all of them because a muslim cannot be a muslim unless they believe in revere love and respect All of the prophets including jesus moses abraham and all of them Um follow all of them and in their way and once again, we believe that they were divinely inspired So and there was evidence that all of these prophets come with and I think I was on that point when I was telling you that um The the differentiating factor between the prophet muhammad and the rest of the prophets is we believe Whereas all of the other prophets came for their people and their time. We believe that muhammad came for all people and all times That’s certainly what christians say about christ Yes, but in the bible you’ll find Up, you know some verses that are saying i’ve only been sent for the lost sheep of israel And so there’s some tension, you know You see this you see something like the rise of a universalism a spirit of universalism that surpasses fundamental tribalism even of a religious sort But and it seems there seems to be a struggle that takes place in the gospel in some sense conceptually Between this reversion to something that’s more tribal and something that’s genuinely universal But I think the universalist spirit wins out quite clearly in otherwise christianity wouldn’t be an evangelizing religion It’s designed to try to bring everyone Let’s say tension. Sorry. It’s largely because of the tension between paul and james And a lot of well modern day christianity is based on poor line kind of interpretations rather than kind of James was very much a man of the law himself. He was You know, he didn’t believe that the law was abrogated. He didn’t believe that in fact There’s huge tension obviously in in the bible between both those two men And obviously there’s historical reasons for that as well, but what we will say is That we would say that there are clear verses in the bible. Like for example, we point to isaiah 42 11 Where that indicates a new prophet that’s going to come and in fact Isaiah 42 11 in particular is extremely important because it even specifies the region It says it will be sent to the people of kedar and the people of kedar as in genesis Kedar was the son of ishmael And basically from him is the lineage of muhammad or the arabs if you like and so It is a whole discussion in the whole of isaiah 42 about a new prophet going to come And he is going to come to the people of kedar and the people will be rejoicing on the mountain tops And in fact the name of a mountain in medina, which is present-day saudi arabia is mentioned, which is the mount of sela And and so we would say that actually muhammad was a continuation of jesus christ and that jesus christ as a prophet Also in the bible doesn’t say that there’s not going to be another prophet after me and so there’s no Reasonable reason for us to think at all end. I think christ actually said that the believers Would be able to do the things he did and more So there’s actually a prophecy of of a multitude of prophets in some sense which would perhaps be a consequence of Taking the fundamental doctrine the spiritual doctrine of christianity seriously Yes, I mean as as we said interpretation in many ways We are all followers of christ and that’s another point of commonality like We we we see the messiah jesus christ as a man Who had done wonders and miracles and signs as the bible states we believe that he was immaculately conceived We believe that he cured the blind. He raised the dead with god’s permission We believe like most of the things that you’ll find We actually believe in those things. There’s huge commonalities between islam and christianity from that perspective The major difference is we would say that it’s not intelligible or conceivable Or pardonable to believe any human being with a date of birth could ever be called god And and this is where where we kind of diverge from the christian mainstream. Yeah, so So, okay, so let me let me tell you about some things i’ve been thinking about in relationship to that well you know that Nietzsche announced the death of god in the late 1800s and You know what the consequences of that been have been at least to some degree and of course dostoevsky was talking about exactly the same things at pretty much exactly the same time, but the philosopher of religion merche aliad In his historical investigations indicated that That the death of god is something that has happened to many cultures in many places over many times It’s not a unique event in let’s say western history and his explanation for that at least in part was that As there’s a movement towards unification under a monotheistic umbrella, let’s say which is perhaps a precondition for the union of diverse people the the one of the consequences of that is that that central unifying Value becomes so abstracted because it has to cover such a multiplicity. It becomes so abstracted that it becomes sufficiently It flies away and he called that deus abscondus if I remember correctly Is that the idea of the spirit just flies away because it no longer has an attachment to the world And one of the ways that christianity solved that if you think about it from a psychological perspective was by Was by insisting upon the presence of god In a canonic form right in an emptied form and in a partially emptied form In the person of christ in a particular place and a particular time And it’s it’s a variant of the prophetic idea, although taken to its absolute extreme The prophetic idea is that there are people who are marked out in history Marked out by god by their relationship with what’s highest in some spectacular manner and so I guess one of the things I would say about the the islamic islamic resistance to the idea of the divinity of christ is that There is an emphasis on islam on the special status of prophets of certain prophets and their particular Special relationship with god which seems to elevate them Above other men in some important sense And so and drawing a line precisely between that claim and the claim of divinity incarnate is not an easy matter so well, I I would actually disagree with that I think there’s a clear distinction in the quran between The the prophets and ordinary men. This is actually one of the clearest distinctions I because but is there a clear distinction between the prophets and some spark of divinity inside those men? Yeah, so what do we define as a spark of divinity Well, I would say it’s what it’s partly what gives people charisma although it’s not always that It’s also partly what marked these men out as being prophets I mean, it’s what we look at when we say that man is great. That’s a great man That’s a great person that was a great deed. Well, yes. Yes fair enough But I would say also embodied virtue and it’s embodied virtue that is in some sense reflective Of the action of the highest value operating at a local scale Yeah, so that’s exactly what we believe. We believe in we believe in the doctrine of infallibility And so we believe that all prophets basically did the best thing possible for human beings And and this is narrated about the prophet muhammad. In fact, uh, you know In the Quran chapter 68 verse two that and you have impeccable virtue basically the highest level virtue And this is something about all the prophets and obviously if that wasn’t the case We wouldn’t they wouldn’t be sufficient guides for us in terms of humanity So if that’s what you mean by a spark of divinity, then I don’t think there’s a point of resistance Yeah Well, these things are hard to sort out right the terminology and that’s part of the complexity of these sorts of discussions. And yeah for us divinity is basically Having the attributes of god. So once again since we know god through his attributes um from that perspective That human beings cannot possess the fullness of the attributes of god If you want I can recite that seems like a perfectly reasonable perspective I mean, you know, we’re all limited infallible creatures and and and we’d be a fool. We’d be fools not to see that the the attributes of god How are they knowable is that only through relationship with the with the book or is that is that also does that also have an Experiential element as far as you’re concerned so what I can do in fact is I can recite for you a couple of verses from the quran because what we believe is They have they are known through the revelation and I can recite for you Maybe 10 20 second verses and translate for you and show you what I think it will give you more of a flavor of what you believe Sure, do what you will So the quran states in the end of chapter 59 So So let me read the translation from from uh, I don’t want to get this wrong, right these two verses I think are probably The two best verses that answer your question in the quran Allah is he okay, we’ll get something maybe a bit better Uh translation, all right He is allah That there is no god worthy of worship except for him the king the holy the one free from all defects The giver of security the watcher over his creatures the mighty the compiler the supreme Glory be to him Glory be to god high is he above all that they associate as partners with him He is allah the creator the inventor of all things the bestower of forms to him belong the best names All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify him and he is the almighty the all wise so these are I would say the two potentially the two best verses that summarize for us so right so it’s an attempt to Use a multiplicity of virtues to decide to define a supreme source of good So, okay. I have a technical question for you a procedural question, I guess um When we’re talking so you sang those verses and then so here’s what happened I asked you that question you sang those verses or chanted them. It’s or a combination of those two Okay, but there’s a there’s a melodic element to that and I don’t understand the language And then you translated them and so why approach the answer to to my question in that manner Because we believe that the quran in its original language Has an element in it or has a has a virtue if you like to it or an attribute to it Which cannot be felt or experienced? phenomenologically if you like Just mere translation We believe so, yeah, so what what purpose does that serve in the discussion with someone like me? What it would do hopefully because we believe the quran has divine qualities itself The quran itself has divine qualities. So we believe number one. It’s a cure We believe there’s a physical. It’s actually a physical cure as well as a spiritual cure We believe that it’s a guidance we believe that uh, it’s it’s something which will Literally put you in a psychological state of ease so in a sense what it will do it hopefully, you know will have an effect on you, which is Physiological maybe psychological and in a sense it’s like giving you something to taste rather than just explaining what it tastes like You know, and um, so that’s why I feel how do you know when that’s how do you know when that’s appropriate and when it’s not? It’s when you obviously don’t all the well, but you don’t yeah No, but but so that’s why I asked the question is obviously you’re making distinctions You’re not you’re not doing what you just did with what is your piece? I want to give you the full islamic experience. You see? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do you know what I mean? So Yeah, okay part of it is to part of it is to let you hear what the quran sounds like um So you can kind of if you hear it Maybe you go somewhere to a muslim country and you hear that in the background or you may be even walking down I don’t know you you’re from alberto. Is it? Yes. Yeah, mays you know that I think you’ve mentioned it before I’ve been to i’ve been to edmonton actually in canada there’s a muslim community there Maybe you’ll hear it in someone driving and oh, I remember that I know what that is, you know So it’s just to gain maybe so why did that make you smile? Because because that would make me happy I mean quite quite openly and honestly because we want the best I mean to be honest with you if you want me to be totally honest. Yeah. No, that’s what i’m hoping for. Yeah, right What you asked me before we started the show. I mean one of our not objectives but one of our hopes Okay, is that people embrace islam and become muslims? That’s islam is an evangelizing religion. It’s a religion which aims literally to enter every home. There’s a There is actually a prophetic saying that says that islam will enter every home not necessarily meaning everyone will become muslim But will enter every home in some way shape or form You mean like what’s happening right now with this podcast? There you have it you see it’s part of it No, there’s a series of predictions that the prophet makes and this is part of the evidence package we believe Okay, so you also talked about the fact, you know when we started just before we started this that yeah Part of the reason that you’re talking with me is that you hope to build bridges. So this gets definitely Religious and so this gets down to some and I want to return to the fundamental attributes of islamic belief I don’t I don’t want to let that part of the conversation lag But you know christianity is also an evangelizing religion and yes christians hope the same thing so while you know what what that has caused and is still causing and so, you know, we have to contend with this all of us that are alive now and So we have two evangelizing religions. They’re both they’re both fundamentally monotheistic They emerge from a tradition that’s quite similar. There’s many things that they have in common but the border between them has been rife with with conflict for A very long time and that has not ended And it’s become more distributed and so forth. But and one of the things about islam, I would say that frightens the west is that the it especially in the modern world is that It appears that it’s difficult for religions that aren’t islam in islamic countries to manage to maintain themselves to any degree whatsoever And now look I understand I I said that with a certain understanding also in mind When I look at this from a psychological or an anthropological perspective, I also see that As human societies have come together and organized themselves in ever increasing sized groups That the necessity for an emergent monotheism as a uniting factor might be crucial And it’s clearly the case that the emergence of islam united diverse people And in that union there is a kind of peace that that’s the definition of union and how much strife and force and conflict and catastrophe Had to attend that unification Is a matter of debate. We don’t know how these things can be managed We don’t know how to manage them any better, but we’re still stuck with this problem Now we have two fundamental monotheisms that are head to head. No, no, that’s that’s an oversimplification And hypothetically, we’re both motivated by the desire for something approximating peace And so and we want to build bridges and that’s why you and I are talking. Yes, but but I don’t know what to do with the mutual evangelical Uh, what would you say? Impulse like my sense is Christians turn to yourself You’re a problem. You can fix yourself you do that and the other things are going to sort themselves out of their own accord And I do believe that and I actually believe that that message is in some sense centrally christian It’s like look to yourself And be the example And that’s the best way of of let’s say convincing other people if that’s what you’re interested in It’s also the only real effective way of bringing peace So well, i’m not sure. Look i’m a traditionalist muslim Okay, which means i’m orthodox. I’m not a liberal at all In fact, I oppose liberalism to be quite honest with you in in the sense that I criticize it I don’t think it’s the truth with the capital t uh I don’t so a lot of enlightenment ideas. I oppose them openly, right? And so i’m speaking from the perspective of someone who is a traditionalist muslim someone by that I mean I stick to the quran and the sunnah, which is the prophetic sayings and the jewish prudential tradition Which is derived from those two sources and other sources as well But this is a traditionalist perspective which I think represents the majority. Here’s what I will say The first order of business jordan peterson Dr. Jordan peason is for us, I think to acknowledge that both religions have a capability of peace Okay, this is extremely important And that requires education So i’m just gonna be honest with you like for example the warlord comment that you made, okay I’ve about the prophet. I think that is part of the problem. I have to be honest because yeah, I want to get to that Dr. Jordan where here’s here’s the thing that I don’t see you as some kind of enemy of islam. I genuinely don’t I think I see that We need and I don’t want to be either I have lots of people in the islamic world who are listening to what i’m doing and and watching and it’s being supportive This is part of it. And here’s what i’ll say to you No, I can tell you that as a matter of fact like my close friends and traditionalist muslims listen to you I mean, that’s for sure Um, in fact, they love you think they’d have something better to do. No, no, no, no, no because a lot of your views Kind of coalesce with the islamic viewpoints, especially on like the nuclear family on alcohol I know you’ve done your phd on alcohol actually your thesis and um, obviously islam is one of the only religions in the world that bans alcohol completely and uh drugs and stuff but going back to the point like We said we want to build bridges and we said we want to understand each other and I think What you said there’s important. We do have two evangelizing religions We have to look at the character and the life story of the prophet because with the prophet mohammed Here’s two things that we we have to look at number one there was the meccan period and i’m sure you’re aware in that period The prophet mohammed was you know, first of all, he was an orphan And then he got married to a woman at the age of 25 her name was khadija She was actually his boss and then after that, you know He said that he received revelation at the age of 40 in the in the mountain in the cave. Sorry and then after that Uh, there was a time of persecution and then after that He went he went to different places. He went to taif Which is a place outside of mecca he went to el-oswal hazaraj who are two clans two tribes And what it was is that he was he was trying to get support for his project Or the monotheistic project because he was being boycotted etc He eventually got it from el-oswal hazaraj these two tribes because they actually believed in the religion of islam This is documented like without a shadow of a doubt. This is what happened And then is this in the medina? Is this the medina period that you’re speaking of? So this is actually technically the meccan period Okay, still the meccan period. Yeah so right before medina literally was established because medina is That it was it was so called after the prophet because medina just literally means the city in arabic It was called the ethyl before and then they changed it into medina to nebi like the city of the prophet And so that’s why it was kind of called medina after that In that time period so we got 13 years of medina The vast majority i’m not going to say it all but the vast majority of wars that took place In fact all of the wars that took place before the conquest of mecca were defensive. So the pagan arabs went to Medina and tried to siege it And all of these are names of wars in fact there was according to ibn khayyam once gola there were 19 such wars In 10 years, so that’s almost an average of two wars every year And for me, I see that actually as an evidence for prophet because the prophet was actually fighting in these wars He wasn’t just you know throwing people around telling him to fight for him. He was fighting in them and they were defensive wars um So in that time period what happened was i’ll give you one example. Okay. So, okay so let me let me interject something there because that’s That’s that’s very that’s a very hard thing for me to To get straight in my mind. Yes now I would say that and the division in islam that occurred almost immediately upon muhammad’s death And which has not been rectified to this day quite the contrary so that’s also you know, that’s a problem for everyone It’s a problem for muslims. It’s a problem for christians It’s a problem for everyone and it’s a problem that could really get out of hand now It’s not like I don’t know that the protestants and the catholics were at each other’s throats for you know hundreds of years. So but that’s that’s not the issue at the moment, so Now in in islam, there’s a tremendous emphasis on christ’s doctrines as well And there isn’t any evidence that christ himself took part in let’s say wars Okay, it’s hard And let me let me disagree with that. What do you mean? Okay. Well if you if you analyze christ as an archetype When he comes back in his second coming he is going to dominate the world And one can say well, that’s not the historical christ, but when we’re when we’re looking at him in the way Look, that’s a reasonable. That’s a reasonable objection And I understand that a judge a judge has a judge has that that martial Element and I don’t think it’s reasonable to use the archetypal representation as an argument against the the historical reality and look i’m Not saying to you That I know that what muhammad did was wrong. That isn’t what i’m saying. I’m saying that I don’t understand how participation in those defensive wars let’s say but then that was also followed by a tremendous explosion of islamic expansion, right? The biggest empire of the world had ever seen in a very short period of time right at right at europe’s doors and so And that was also followed by the severance of the islamic faith into two major categories and and internecine conflict there and so there’s that that stream of of of armed conflict activity, I I think that you’re With respect, I I don’t think you’re getting the history fully right here because well go. Yep. That’s fine Go right ahead the the the war in jamaal and sephir that the wars between shia and sunnah or what would then be It’s not really between shia and sunnah because quite frankly shia ism had not been established as a But the the wars of the companions how many people died in those wars? Do we have any numbers for maximum we can say no, but it’s but it Fair look fair enough man, and it’s not like it’s not christ. It’s not like christianity hasn’t been rife with internecine conflict Yes, no, but the thing is but the fact is is that it was almost immediately after muhammad’s death that this fracturing took place Among the people that were closely allied with him and it was a bloody fracturing and it isn’t obvious that it’s been how bloody was it? How how bloody was it? Well, how bloody does it have to be? You know, it doesn’t take much. Okay Let’s be honest. Let’s be fair. Yeah. Yeah Let’s be fair right with with with with the wars that took place 30 to 40 years And it wasn’t immediately after because you said that in a video the day he died. That’s wrong He it didn’t happen the day he died. It happened 30 to 40 years after It happened 30 to 40 years after and how long how how many people how many members of muhammad’s immediate family survived during that 30 years? My understanding was that most of his immediate family died in armed conflict relative to his immediate family died in his own lifetime Yes, well, i’m not speaking of them, but i’m speaking of what happened after he died facts, right? Because yeah, okay. Look first first fact muhammad Uh salah sallam we say sallahu alayhi wa sallam meaning peace and blessings be upon him um All of his children died in his life. Okay, except for one So most of the members of his immediate family and his wife died khadija died his uncle abu talib died his other uncle hamza died They all died within his lifetime either due to illness or due to some other some other cause war for example Like one of the defensive was hamza died And by the way muhammad forgave his killer and that’s something which which goes against the warlord thesis because When he then conquered mecca When he conquered mecca, he was actually no fighting. I’m not sure if you know this it’s called fat hamaka When he went into and conquered mecca, he didn’t fight anybody It was no fighting. There were a few people that that were exempted But he actually quoted what joseph quoted to his brothers in the quran in the quran which is letter three That no blame is on you today and so and this by the way is a bedrock example of forgiveness in islam because These were people that were persecuting him for 13 years. These are people that were that killed his uncle like I said, there’s one person called washi who um who literally killed his uncle and uh and mutilated his body and he said to washi, I forgive you, but I can’t I can’t see your face because of how how He said he said He said can you keep your face away from me because I can’t psychologically I can’t bring my face But I do forgive you he said so he forgave people that killed his own family members And this was after he himself attempted a treaty with the pagans called hodeibiyah and so they broke the treaty and that’s what initiated the conquest of mecca which was Not a conquest that was uh fighting Now if you compare this because I think the comparison if there’s any comparison that can be or should be made It’s the it’s jesus’s second coming with muhammad in the medinian period not in the meccan period in the meccan period Both were being persecuted jesus in his life and muhammad in his in the meccan period but jesus When he comes back, he will then get authority and he will be I uh, he will be ruling with the iron sceptre according to the bible He would be crushing his uh He will be crushing his enemies as it says in corinthians under his foot humbling his enemies other’s foot Uh and killing and violent stuff. So in fact what the the I will actually argue today That the new testament representation of jesus christ in his second coming is way more violent than muhammad’s Conquest in uh the medinian period. Okay. Well, look like I said, I wasn’t I wasn’t trying to make the case I wasn’t trying to make the case that What happened in mecca or medina was wrong like so let me explain that a little bit so Christian europe fought a defensive war against the nazis It isn’t obvious that that was wrong. I don’t think that was I wouldn’t say that’s defensive Well, okay fine, but but I understand the concept of defensive war And america didn’t america when america got involved in world war two It was not under immediate threat by germany and they colonized it and here’s the thing it Overtook western germany you see and where it here’s the thing the term warlord that you use with the prophet You’ve never used with harry truman. You’ve never used with uh with uh, roosevelt You’ve never used with winston churcher all of which conquered countries literally in wars Because I feel like there is there is a bias there and you’ve actually never used it with anybody else Aside from the prophet muhammad in your public output and I think that’s unjustifiable I think that you have biblical prophets like moses you have biblical prophets like um joshua you have you have the jesus in his second coming all of which were warrior prophets and and and and you’ve only used the term the uh war lord with the prophet muhammad and I think that is unjustifiable I think If we’ll be what what is it that court? What makes someone a warlord in you in then if if if it’s conquering lands then harry truman is a warlord then uh, You know and so on and so forth. In fact the prophet muhammad well, I guess that’s a real That’s a real tough question. Isn’t it? What makes a warlord and what makes a just war? It’s not like any of us have the precise answers to that That’s what partly what we’re trying to hash out definitions of the word warlords The definition of the word warlord according to collins is that someone acquires force by aggressivity and violence Well, okay, so fine you push back on me, so i’ll push back on you to some degree Okay Well, it’s certainly the case that the expansion of the islamic empire was Accomplished by a tremendous amount of warlike activity and that wasn’t defensive Now look, I understand that monotheism is a difficult state to attain And that monotheistic societies have emerged in the midst of conflict throughout human society I understand that and i’m not even saying that there’s something exceptional in that regard about islam Although the rate at which it happened was quite remarkable, but it still it presents us with a problem. Doesn’t it? I mean everyone it presents everyone with a problem And the problem is well for example The problem is reconciling the idea of turning the other cheek with the idea of a just war or defensive war or an expansive war For that matter and of course that issue is relevant to islam because islam exploded Outward and produced the biggest empire the world had ever seen in in the in the space of a few short centuries Yeah, but don’t join me So then well, so then you ask well, what’s the spirit? What is the spirit that animated that and is that attributable to the islamic doctrines themselves? I don’t know the answer to that. No, let me tell you the answer to that. Okay, and this is what I want to tell you Conclusively and this will help build bridges honestly because we can maintain the warlord thesis We can maintain the expansionist thesis, but here’s what i’ll tell you Islam has a has a capability to be expansive And it also has a capability of making peace treaties And it does and it should do whatever’s in its best interest just like every country should do whatever’s in its best interest in the pre-modern world We did not I think this is highly anachronistic in the pre-modern world There was no such thing as the un it was a realist international relations framework whereby everybody was fighting everyone The roman empire didn’t care About what it didn’t care about you quite frankly. It was expanding itself The persian empire was expanding itself and the arabian peninsula was in between both And so it could have either been swallowed by those two other empires or it could decide to in fact We will impose our government on them before they impose it on us And it decided the former rather than the latter it decided to expand and in fact the prophet in his weakest of times He predicted that that would happen You know, there was one war in particular where they were they were starving and it’s called handaq and he hit a rock and he said 40 had room the roman empire has been conquered He hit another rock again. He said 40 had ferris that the persian empire has been conquered and then he knocked over the rock again He said he said this in his weakest moment. He said that the yemen has been conquered I see that the expansion of the islamic empire is a proof for islam and you know, it’s not just me even historians say this al-bani b. Rogerson he said the fact that islam spread to the roman empire and the persian empire is equivalent to The the is equivalent to eskimos taken over russia in america I believe it’s miraculous if anything that this happened, but I don’t think it’s unjustifiable I think actually during pearson to be completely honest with you. Then why did it stop at why did it stop at europe’s borders? so to speak if it was a miraculous expansion because of It wasn’t successful there. It wasn’t it stopped where it couldn’t go further But the point is is that it’s not like the christians at that time in rome cared I mean they did the same thing for years. They were expanding themselves. Well, that’s why I said That’s why I said I wasn’t making a prime of fallacy case that this was wrong I’m trying to understand it and so and you objected to my Use of the term warlord and perhaps rightly so, you know, perhaps that was an injudicious comment I was rather shocked when I was reading islamic history when I Encountered the degree of violence that surrounded these events. And so, you know, maybe I was I was in That I think that shows real sincerity and it’s it’s it’s one step closer to creating real uh meaningful relationships between Well, I think and I think you’re you know your defense that well the world was a battleground of empires and you know If it’s if it’s push out from our territory or being encroached upon and dominated then it isn’t obvious that being encroached upon and dominated Is the right? Approach the correct approach the most moral approach. Let’s say Um, especially because there’d be no shortage of bloodshed that would also accompany that So sometimes you’re in a bad place and but you know, it’s not an easy thing for any of us to What would you say mediate between doctrines like turn the other cheek and love your enemy? And also at the same time discuss the necessity of both defensive and sometimes expansive expansionist wars, right? We all have to contend with that And and and and it’s very difficult to contend with it. The arguments are extremely complicated You’re absolutely right and I think what’s really important here because I think this is a huge misconception Is to to outline because I know you’re against totalitarianism You’re very uh, you know vocal about that and I want to tell you that we are also a point of commonality We are also against totalitarianism if we if we define totalitarianism as um a central government trying to encroach Every private and public matter Uh of of the citizens lives and this is something we don’t believe in in fact This is very important islam does not say you have to force people either to become muslim Or that they can or they have to live an islamic lifestyle within an islamic governance And i’m, not sure if you know this but at the time of the prophet he made a constitution Okay with jewish people with other people who are not muslim at the time protecting their rights protecting their rights to worship whoever they wanted to worship And actually even guaranteeing that if they were intruder forces that they would be protected like that as well Is that the is that the arrangement made with like fellow people of the book essentially? Yes, it was the arrangement i’m aware of that Yes, and so not only this but this was implemented at the time of the caliphs. So oma awan Or abu bakr as-siddiqa ali bani abu talib and so on this is we believe in a kind of pluralism in this sense And in fact this is I would argue that it was more legally efficacious than what we have in the west Do you know why? because Permission you think that’s true now Yes, even i’m telling you why because christians were given courts That they could rule in And that the law would be efficacious would be a parallel dissenting law system, which would have effect So they would so they would effectively be able to go and judge their affairs Outside of the the general framework of islam The and in fact this is in the quran Injil and allah and they took this even though we believe that the torah has been corrupted to some extent uh The remnants of they can use the torah whatever corrupted version they have To rule their affairs and this is something that was was was done at the time of the prophet done at the time of the caliphs And so even now we would say and i’m not saying that the whole of islamic history has presented this Converventia that we saw in spain between muslims christians and jews a good time and and uh, or other times by all Yeah, yeah, i’m not saying that of course i’m not but what i’m saying is that I think it is disingenuous To to to paint a point at islam as if it’s been the most intolerant of all of these religions Look at the alhambra look at the spanish inquisition. Look at the crusades Look at look at the colonialism that has happened in the name if not even in the name of religion There’s no disputing with me the fact that in some sense we all have the blood of history on our hands Yes, i’m firmly aware of that and it’s an existential burden for everyone and i’m not i’m not trying to make the case that this is Particularly or uniquely true of islam. I certainly know that that’s not the case What i’m saying instead is that these are things that we have to contend with and we don’t exactly know how I still have the problem of these two evangelizing religions, right that they’re going head to head in some sense Yes, it’s true Evangelizing doesn’t mean that it’s compelling and and this is very clear. Okay. Okay now that that’s now there’s an interesting point No, it’s not that the points you made before aren’t you know, because I kind of think Well, let he who can tell the best story win And then that story also has the best actors so to speak, right? And so I would say the proper mode to conversion is something like shining example and then if you’re governed by a doctrine that is in fact divine and you’re managing to Embody that in the sense that gives you the glow the charismatic glow of embodied divinity Two steps removed let’s say and people are willing to abide by your words as a consequence Well more power to you and that’s a lot more efficient and effective than compulsory war Armed conflict or any of those things and I mean this is a constant problem And I would also say that given our technological mastery now, we really can’t afford this anymore We have to solve this problem of defensive war expansive war evangelical religion You know how to go about you not how to go about uniting us under some umbrella that isn’t So vague that it means nothing how to preserve our traditions from the past and I can’t see any better way than each of us Trying to be shining exemplars of our tradition And then letting that goodness shine forth in a way that people you may you may it may be the case that we’ll find That the better we are the more we’re like each other. I mean wouldn’t that be a kind of union under something approximating god? That all good men could see in each other a reflection of something that was the highest And that that should be compelling in and of itself. Absolutely But I think in terms of the jurist prudence in terms of what islam is capable of people in the west Must realize that islam is fully capable of peace This is what must be realized. How do we how do we know that? It’s not despite the quran and the sunnah or the sayings of the prophet and the actions, but it’s because of them If you if you look at the quran and you look at for example chapter 4 verse 90 Or if you look at for example chapter 1 verse 90 chapter 2 verse 190 190 you’ll see that the the The islamic commandments are clearly sometimes about defensiveness but sometimes also clearly about um About creating peace treaties and this treaty of hadaybia is a bedrock example We are so long as there’s peace treaties. There is peace and so in terms of muslim countries they can Perpetually create peace treaties with other people muslim people uh even more so because we believe we’re fully under contract and And therefore you’re willing to abide by a contract This is the thing. Let me tell you something jordan pearson, okay The thing one of the clearest for me and i’ve done a lot of work Studying liberalism studying christianity and studying islam. Okay this the clearest commonality between liberal theory and islam Is contractarianism and contracts consent that is a clear thing because in in liberal theory you have the theory of consent And in islam you have the same thing contracts are binding the quran says yeah Even with people outside the faith. Yes, especially with people outside the faith. Why especially why especially is that part of the tradition of hospitality? In some sense because if if you break a contract with a non-muslim, then you’re driving them away from islam Okay, so yes, that’s definitely true. That’s absolutely Islam is islam is attempts To attract people to its own religion one of the categories of zakat was Money that you pay to non-muslims so that they can feel comfortable and they can feel as if You’re doing them a favor and there’s relationships going on It’s a category. It is a category of zakat, which is one of the five pillars of islam to to give such money so the fact that islam states In chapter five verse verse one Oh you who believe fulfill your contracts that is generic That means to abide by your word So you have to stick by your words no matter for us if you don’t stick to your words Then this shows a lack of character. It shows that you in fact one of the signs One of the signs of a hypocrite Is that he goes against a religious hypocrite is that he is that If he if he makes a contract he goes against it. It seems one of the most despicable things Do you think that there are other? things that i’ve said about islam that we could talk about right now that I could clear up and You know, because I don’t want elephants under the carpet I don’t like elephants under the carpet or snakes under the carpet So are there other things that i’ve said that you that that people on the islamic side? Who would maybe like to not be my enemy? Let’s say um because who needs enemies after all Unless you want them Um, are there other things that you think places that i’ve misstepped in a serious manner that should be rectified as far as you’re concerned In a serious matter, I will confine it to the warlord comment because I think that’s the one that most muslims Well, you know people in the west are afraid of islamic expansionism and they’re okay. So let’s let’s go after that again So the other thing that I find upsetting let’s say is the civil war in islam Yeah, what yeah, so it didn’t tell people to fight each other. I mean that fair enough doesn’t say It doesn’t say that islam doesn’t say there should be a civil war. It’s in fact it was predicted But it was never encouraged. In fact, the quran clearly encourages against civil war Yeah, and I would say the same thing about christianity and it gives us by the way The englis protestant and catholic wars. Sorry Just to interrupt it gives us a remedy. In fact, the quran is the only religious book I know that tells you how to deal with the civil war we’re in thought if a tani minal mumineen katatalu Yeah, fa asliha baynahumma. It says that if two groups of muslims fight then create peace between them fine baghat ma’ala Let it be had to be It says that if and if one of the groups rebels against the other group Then fight the one that is rebellious until it wakes up to the command of god so Islam is categorically against civil war Islam is islam is clearly for pluralism. It’s not for compulsion. These misnomers and misconceptions must Okay, so okay so fair fair enough and as I said I know that the protestants and the catholics were at each other’s throats for years and despite the fact that of there being no Justification for that let’s say or quite the contrary in the gospels. So This isn’t a problem that’s unique to islam, but it is an ongoing problem in islam And it’s not like there isn’t sectarian strife in the west. I also understand that and so that that makes people watching the The religious community say wary because well for obvious reasons And so why do you I know you can’t answer this question in totality But islam hasn’t been able to bring its own house into unified order And so why why why do you think that is and how is that related to islam itself? If it is at all, there’s nothing exceptional about islam in that regard And this once again is you you made this point many times and i’ll tell you something again Just because there’s multiple interpretations of something it doesn’t mean that that thing is false like there may be multiple Interpretations of the killing of jfk. It doesn’t mean that jfk didn’t get killed people differ on things which Especially if there’s a lot of those people which there can be more than one interpretation about now in terms of body count There was actually a a book that was written um, and with there was a chapter of the book by I think his name is nazir sheikh And he he done a study looking at the numbers of people that have been killed in all the major world religions And he puts christianity firmly at the top I mean this doesn’t require too much historical research anyway, look at the 30-year war compare that with any war Look, i’m not okay. Okay. So so the point you’re making the point you’re making is twofold is It’s not The necessity for civil war isn’t embedded in the doctrine And there’s no reason to throw stones at the muslim world when we could perfectly well look to our own history And I do think what we should do is look to our own history I really believe that and I believe that we all carry historical guilt for the bloodshed that’s preceded the structure of all of our societies But we in the west we look at the muslim world and we see that it’s it’s it’s riven apart and we wonder well I I know I know there’s a hypocritical element to that. I’m not claiming that there isn’t it’s not like we have our own house In order, but you have to remember something else. You have to remember there was a colonial reality that existed where britain france and many of the european countries and The western european extensions they dominated the muslim world for the last two three hundred years And so yeah, but I I think I don’t think that’s a particularly good argument. No, it’s very good Well, hang on hang on a sec I’m not I don’t want it. I don’t want to knock it away completely The rift that i’m talking about though was was evident far before that now the fact of that colonial complication that that could well be The fact of that colonial complication could could well be a contributor I know the the nation state lines first of all were imposed. They were imposed quickly. They were imposed arbitrarily and without And partly partly that was a consequence of what would you say? Having to do a lot of things very quickly in the aftermath of a terrible war I’m not trying to excuse it, but it was complicated and I know that that’s left the middle east in this, you know uh uh Group of nation states that now comprise the world in a very complicated situation So it’s a reasonable point but the rift was there before And so okay Here’s what i’ll say to that. Yeah It’s you’re right to say that there was arbitrary lines that were drawn But it’s not just that there were arbitrary lines that were drawn you mentioned the middle east Syria for example, which is where most of the problems are happening now in terms of the middle eastern countries is probably number one Maybe maybe libya number two but say syria for example They put three four five ten different factions all of which have differing understandings of of Religion of ideology of whatever it may be together that produced wars You know you had christians in lebanon fighting sunnis she has flying sunnis And this happened especially after the revolution a lot of it is so with the imposition of a false unity That’s really what happened. Yeah, if you look at how what they’re doing now like look at lebanon as an example You you have to have a christian president and a sunni prime minister and a shia I don’t know what it is first minister or something other. I mean they have systems that try and mitigate these issues But it’s a mess because you’re putting people that have different visions Of how to run a country together and they have their similar demographics It’s like 30 40 percent 20 percent and so that creates more wars, but they put them together almost on I would argue on purpose to be honest. It’s divide and conquer If you look at countries like denmark and sweden and norway, which are very peaceful and very prosperous. They’re also very homogeneous And so and they’re relatively small. So the problem of governance over diversity is much reduced in countries like that It’s simpler for them to be at peace because the culture is relatively homogeneous. And so I take your point It’s not easy to bring a true diversity into something approximating a unity, especially when that unity has been In some sense arbitrarily opposed imposed and also rapidly and arbitrarily imposed. So that’s a reasonable point. Yeah um, but I think what it is is and i’ve seen this in your reading list it’s like when you when you follow kind of bernard lewis’s Uh, or samuel huntington’s kind of clash of civilization narratives. Sometimes you miss the nuances and these are the nuances Well, that’s for sure the myriad contributory factors to why and it’s I still don’t see How islamic countries this like almost 50 muslim majority countries? uh in Like in general like you made a point about economic, uh potential one time you said yeah Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because well, that’s another thing. That’s quite a mystery is that the Comparatively speaking per capita the muslim countries are not that productive economically That’s there’s four muslim majority in what sense There’s four muslim there are four out of ten muslim majority countries in the gdp per capita top 10 brunei qatar kuwait and saudi arabia Yeah, well, i’m not sure that i’m willing to grant the fact that most of that wealth is generated by oil as a con as a indicator Of productivity the point stands is you said per capita gdp. Yeah, sorry. Yes fair enough And you were right to call me on that that isn’t what that isn’t what I meant I’m sorry because I don’t think I well no I do we got to get the words right here We got to get them exactly right because these things matter um, I don’t the Well, all you know that oil wealth is often a curse as well as a blessing So outside of oil wealth you have brunei brunei is another country. That’s in the top 10 Which is okay. So let’s talk about brunei. What have they done right in in your estimation? I don’t know much about brunei, but I know they’re in the top 10. I have to be honest with you, you know But yeah, well, that’s part of this low resolution knowledge that we all have a problem with right I mean it’s yes talking about these things is very difficult because you have to know everything to do it Yeah, it’s not that easy to know everything I know that they were trying to implement sharia to a very high level and Whatever they’re doing is it’s not because it’s not despite the sharia and but what I also know is that The methodology is flawed when you look at Muslim majority countries and say well They’re not doing well as non-muslim majority country because the ottoman empire 400 years ago was doing better than most countries. Yes Yes, absolutely And I know I know and historical time frame matters, you know because it’s definitely so so that’s a perfectly valid point Let me tell you something. Yeah, john pearson You are an epistemological pragmatist from my understanding you said before an interview that Anything which serves life is is true. That’s what you said With sam harris If this is the case and you said it’s nested in daoism if this is your position Then the truth of the matter it’s nested complicated. It’s nested in a very complex manner in darman Yeah but if it’s I mean I think that highest truth is something like love and I think it’s very much associated with The notions of love that are essential to religious traditions And so i’m with you but you still believe that truth is utility and you still believe because that’s the pragmatist position And so truth is relative Yeah, but I also believe that the basis of utility is love That’s why i’m not so sure that i’m not so sure that you and I differ so much on that particular Now what john pearson what i’m gonna say to you is this right? Pragm first of all pragmatically islam is doing the best because if you’re talking about evolution then we’re talking about reproduction and survivability And islam has got the highest uh birth rates in the world today It’s the fastest growing religion by a mile by by 2100. It will be number one So in your definition it should be the most true by the way number one number two is this Is that well, that’s a lot of love all that reproduction They’re they’re trying to change the subject now So number number number two is this look dr john pearson is i’ll tell you that I think I’ve seen your struggle against postmodernism I’ve seen your struggle against nihilism and I don’t think you will be successful and i’m sorry to say it like this and the reason why I don’t think you’ll be successful is because Your framework is itself relativistic if if it’s utility and epistemologically Pragmatic then truth is relative and if truth is relative What are you going to say to you you actually agree with the postmodernist in that sense? You I think you’re closer to postmodernist than you think in fact the pragmatist position is not It’s a secret love It’s not inconsistent jordan pearson with the pragmatic position that you hold what we are offering you Well, i’m going to detail out that in in much more detail when I go to cambridge and oxford, so Okay, I don’t know. You should come Why don’t you come to one of the talks? I’ll i’ll come. Okay. Just do you want me to get do you want an invitation? I’ll get you an invitation. Well, let’s now why don’t you come because i’m gonna talk about one of the things in islam Is to always accept invitations as well and gifts and i’m gonna send you some gifts as well my friend Yeah, all right, because we need to get you some gifts. All right. All right. So look i’m gonna ask you one more I gotta stop because i’m getting burned out. I I want to ask you one more question Okay, and and we I would like to talk to you again and I do hope you come and and join me in cambridge Or at oxford for one of these talks that would be real good. Yeah, i’ll get i’ll get the person organizing the the the the trip to to extend you an invitation and so Now you described yourself as a traditionalist As opposed to a liberal muzzles Yeah, and and we were talking a little bit about mustafa akil and so why for you is the traditionalism? particularly important and why why should that carry more weight than let’s say attempts to Hypothetically liberalize islam What is it doing for you? look We have and this goes back to the pragmatism point and the post-modernism point islam Gives you moral Anchorage in and of itself We believe islam itself has an inbuilt flexibility, but objectively it’s an from a correspondence theory perspective It’s an outside truth, which is which is hard which is strong And which can oppose and destroy post-modernism and nihilism and and that’s what I think a lot of your followers want So you think that a traditionalist grounding is is a more it’s a firmer foundation as far as you’re concerned When a liberal decides that they want to fuse islamic ideas with uh islamic ideas with liberal ideas they’re They’re almost Um, yeah, okay fair enough. I can understand that and it’s partly why I have some sympathy for conservative for the conservative Just one point. Okay. Yes So they are but they’re admitting that there’s it’s almost an admission that islam is not complete and it’s not perfect We believe islam is complete and it’s perfect in its guidance and we believe we have evidence for that Whether it’s the prophets. Yeah. Well, okay, but there’s two there’s two problems. I have with that I would say I mean look and I i’m taking your point seriously and I understand the utility of firm foundations as a bulwark against Chaos, okay. Yes, of course. So but but here’s here’s two problems. I have with that It’s not easy to protect yourself if you’re a traditionalist against the temptation towards an authoritarian interpretation And flawed as we all are, you know when we approach let’s say sacred texts We also have to remember that it’s us who are reading them And divine though they may be that doesn’t mean we’re perfect in our receipt receipt of their message And so it’s hard what the the danger on the on the more traditionalist side is the slide into authoritarian Authoritarian certainty as opposed to the slide into chaos on the more liberal side So how do you how do you how do you personally defend yourself against that? Well, first of all Authoritarianism on pragmatism is and pragmatism are not Inconsistent because an authoritarian leader. I’m not saying I have the answer to that problem Okay, fine. Fine making that’s the first thing number two is I would say, you know, you’ve said one time I think in a lecture that one of the miracles of christianity is render on to caesar verse, you know Render on to caesar what belongs to caesar render on to god what belongs to god? What if caesar is hitler? Then you’ve got authoritarianism all over again. So I think yes definitely Yeah, so you didn’t answer my question though. It was a technical question It’s a technical question look and maybe i’m wrong in the formulation and you can tell me if you think I am What I see as a danger on the liberal side Is the possibility of a descent into something like chaos that’s hopelessness and despair But what I see on the more traditionalist side, let’s say the conservative side is a retreat into a kind of Authoritarian certainty and that’s those are twin temptations that might be what would you say specific to given temperaments? and I was asking you personally like you’re a you’re a Traditionalist believer. Yeah, how do you protect yourself? You know your soul? Against the temptations of overweening certainty. All right, I got you. I got you. Okay. Okay. Yeah, no I don’t in terms of certainty I I strive for it. In fact, we we want it. We don’t we don’t want to The problem is not how do you rectify error? Like, you know, you’re not perfect obviously Me personally, of course, i’m not perfect, but we believe we follow a perfect guidance Right, but you follow it imperfectly Yes, and there’s the rub right so so that’s my point is that given that you have to follow it imperfectly given that you’re imperfect How do you defend yourself against inappropriate certainty? Because look if you’re imperfect, it means you think you’re right about things. You’re not right about that’s the definition of it’s compounded in your eyes, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So There are things that I you know in terms of my own personal you’re talking about my own personal face. Yeah You bet okay, I got you there are certain things which I’ll agree I will believe in 100% And there are certain things I will suspend judgment on So the things which for me constitute the anchor I believe the moment I take the anchor away. I plunge into chaos and anarchy and depression And that’s not something i’m willing to do for myself So the the certainty I have is that there’s one god worthy of worship That god’s wisdom and guidance is the truth That whatever god says is true That the prophets are true that heaven is true that hell is true all that stuff The things I will suspend judgment on is how to deal with situations Because that I do believe by the way in a kind of sharia consequentialism And I do believe that within the islamic framework is something called usul al fiqh Which is basically the principles of jurisprudence that that rules are not always going to work in all cases We do believe that by the way, so so for example, i’m not allowed to drink alcohol, but in certain cases if it’s the last thing Uh that one can do if if they’re not going to die if they’re going to die if they don’t do it then you can do it And this is just one like extreme example. We’re not allowed alcohol in islam. Obviously, uh, this is one of the conjunctions But there are things we do believe in a consequence an inbuilt flexibility with that We have to communicate we have to discuss we have to speak to muslims and non-muslims alike. Yeah Okay, okay Getting at what I want. I want to hear from you specifically You know that well all of us struggle with the desire to have what we believe be right at all costs, right? because it’s it well it is satisfying and And it’s difficult to be wrong because it means you have to improve you have to look at your errors I’m asking you personally like when you’re dealing with your wife when you’re dealing with your kids, you know How do you know when how is it that you can protect yourself against being over weaning? Now this is a good question you’re gonna get me in trouble with this kind of thing right now, you know This is a good question What it is is that you know, i’ve been married for like nine years now, you know And i’ve had to learn that the hard way You know i’ve had to learn that the hard way that I protect myself by realizing or know my own vulnerability my own fallibility My own weakness the fact that I don’t get everything right Um the fact that there’s another perspective that there’s something outside of myself, which is greater than me Yeah, well, that’s okay So that’s that’s something like you know, because a serious discussion can be had about the relationship between humility and love, right? I mean, I think a certain degree of humility is a precondition for love because otherwise you can’t take the perspective of the other person Like how can you if you if you don’t think you’re wrong and I like I For me and and it’s certainly been the case This was useful in my clinical practice and certainly in my marriage is i’m trying to be as attentive as I can to when i’m wrong And that seems to be a reasonable yeah that comes out and I think that’s really good That’s a good part of your person I think that’s why a lot of people actually love your work and love you as a person because you come across as extremely authentic and sincere that We don’t find that kind of thing in kind of a lot. It’s not like it’s It’s not like it’s obvious to me that the christians have it right and the jews and the muslims have it wrong And so that’s certainly not the case at an individual level No, it’s way more complicated than that way more and so we’re just not going to go for answers If we go for answers like that, we’re going to be at each other’s throats. And how about we aren’t? How about we’re not? How about we make peace? Hey, and so you and I we had a peaceful conversation so good for us and hooray And hopefully we’ll have some more and I would be very much like to see you in in cambridge or oxford And you can listen to my arguments in a more detailed manner that way and that might address some of the philosophical concerns that you were raising So so i’ll get an invitation out to you. Well likely today So and hopefully we’ll be able to talk again and thank you very much for agreeing to speak with me I appreciate it and for correcting me on my misapprehensions Thank you. Dr. Jordan and you’re most welcome to come and speak on my podcast as well and Uh, as I said a lot of traditionalist muslims really look up to you And I think we’ve actually come quite a long way in being able to build bridges to summarize really from my side So as long as today we have Realized that okay. Islam is a religion not too dissimilar Okay from the other previous dispensations as we would we would see it and that there are things there’s a flesh that joins these religions and also that Peace is possible Peace is possible. Well, then let’s let’s see if we can be good enough people to actually want peace Let’s try and see what we can do. All right, man we’ll see oh I hope we see each other in the uk and and i’d like to say hello to all the listeners and Watchers of this from the islamic community and like Let’s see what we can do together man Yeah, and you’re you’re invited to anything any mosque I think in the the uk will have you because you’ve already got the presence there Just name the mosque and i’ll i’ll get you an invitation Send me a send me a suggestion when I send you this invitation send me a suggestion I don’t know if I can do it on this visit But i’m coming back in I think march and i’d certainly i’m certainly willing to do it That’s not only willing eager and I mean that I mean eager I would love to be welcomed in that manner. That would be a tremendous privilege as far as i’m concerned so No, I think you will be surprised as to the amount of acceptability that You have in particular the muslim community Well, hooray for that. So let’s try not to mock it up with foolish words All right, man, good talking to you. Thanks again. Thanks so much, man You

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