Symbolic World Summit - Recap! (DNjKDCfSgcg)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=DNjKDCfSgcg

Music All right, welcome everyone. Sally Jo is running into technical problems. Adam’s running a little late. And we have a special guest coming on the way too. Sally, Sally, like, I don’t know what happened to Sally. Nope, she’s still she’s still sideways. There we go. I was trying to make it so be widescreen. It doesn’t want to be widescreen. It’s okay, Sally. We love you the way you are. So, yeah, we got one more. We got one more comment. The only one you really want to hear from the volunteer. We were just attendees. Who wants to hear from the attendees? Right. Yeah, I really want his perspective. It’s going to be exciting. So I’m just going to start with introductions. I’m Mark. Hopefully you knew why. By this point, the last minute, we’re not really the last minute, but sort of late in the thing, I figured out a way to go. Symbolic World Summit all the way down to Florida worked out really well and was excited to go. You know, people doing a thing, right? Participation, another conference. I’ve been to Arkansas, convivium conference. You can see those videos are awesome. And I went to Thunder Bay, didn’t make you know. Father Eric was there. He can’t join us, unfortunately, today, but that’s okay. We mostly sort of hung out together. So obviously this is navigating patterns in case you’re watching on a different on a different channel. That’s somewhat I thought was really good. And I took the universal history path and I was really excited to go not just because it’s a thing, but because I’ve been sort of adjacent to symbolic world for a long time. I’m on their little discord server and their little Facebook group and all that. I don’t participate much and big fan of JP Marceau. I’ve talked to him a few times. I get to meet him in person. That was fun. So I really wanted to go just to see everybody and see what they were up to. And and and I was happy that I was able to go. So, Sally, tell us like who you are and why you went and all that. Hi, I am Sally Jo Michelson Cooper. I am working to be a professional artist. I do a big amount. I don’t know. It’s majority right now contribution of visual arts to navigating patterns, as well as I have Sally Jo Michelson Cooper YouTube. And that is my visual arts practice translated through YouTube as opposed to galleries, because galleries are mostly trash right now. So that’s what I’ve been dealing with. And yeah, I went I was really excited to hear Pagio and other professional artists talking about art that was not devoid of meaning, not strangle held by the postmodern psycho narrative and not in hatred and opposition to beauty. So that was wonderful. Just everything I had hoped to find from other artists at art school has been through online communities, navigating patterns and there and one of the absolutely most outstanding ideas that came through the conference. Not all art is good. And we should be able to judge it and have standards and discipline as necessary. And yes, and all we have to do is make good art because there’s nothing there’s no competition for that right now. And it’s like, yes, I do it. And you took you took the artist path. Yeah, Jonathan Pagio and Vesper Stamps and there was another I’m terrible at names. I’m sorry. There was another icon carver who applies modernist techniques to icons. And and that that was a wonderful thing to put modern color usage and some of these modern techniques in their place in correspondence to the rest of the language of art because actually Rothko and Monet and some of these big names. If they are in context with the rest of the language of art did add something good because it was this modern use of colors that had never been available in that quantity before. That stuff can be applied to the old languages and be used in this healthy way. And it’s just it just hasn’t been and that’s been just sad. Okay, Adam, we’ll do two more of these last because he’s our special super guest. I’m so excited to hear you last. Okay, Adam, go ahead. Well, you know, tell us who you are and why you went and what you’re excited about, etc. Sure. So I’m, I’m Adam might have seen me on some of the videos here on navigating patterns with Mark talking about history. And so that was a little wonder. I know. So so that’s, yeah, I flew out to Tarpon Springs all the way from Ireland, which is where I live. And yeah, I mean, it was it was really a great opportunity first to meet, you know, Mark and Sally and Father Eric. Right. And secondly, it was it was the sort of the sort of the sort of the sort of the sort of the sort of the sort of the challenge that I had to face. Right. And secondly, it was it was this symbolic world summit and meet all the people that we met there. A wonderful time. And so, yeah, yeah, I mean, I’m an amateur historian. But nevertheless, that’s kind of why why I was there. Certainly. Excellent. Excellent. Two more. So nice to have you, sir. I’m so excited. I feel like because you get the inside track, because you get in on the volunteer thing, which is just fantastic. So, yeah, go ahead. Take it away. Tell us what you want to tell us. You know, the quick introduction to yourself and all that. Yeah. Well, I’m a musician. I work with with Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pajon and a few others on the side. Pajos brother, for example, is stuff that I’m partly working on right now. I I worked with Akira the Don in 2019 and after that started to also make speeches in my own music, like I recorded stuff for him and then they don’t. And I started to do that in my with my own music as well. And I think I’ve been following the whole thing since, let’s say, 2018, 2019. So about five years now, which was then like it was it was pretty crazy just to meet all those people that I have been talking to online for so long to finally meet them in person. That was that was nice. Yeah, I was flown out by by my mate Paul, who he just like he messaged me at the end of I think in the middle of last year when when it came out that the summit was happening and said, like, you know, I’m going to be a musician. And then just paid for my tickets. That was pretty crazy. God bless them for that. And then I talked to Neil deGrade from Dirtpool Robbins, who got me in on the volunteer thing so that I could, you know, attend because the tickets were all like I couldn’t have paid any of this. It’s like I’m a poor student. I don’t have any money. And so that was that was a pretty good opportunity to get in. And then I was like, I’m going to go to the next one. And so that was that was a pretty good opportunity to get in. And then also fun because I got to see the whole, you know, the backstage stuff and like, like build everything and all that with with with my mates. And then, yeah, that was that was that was very exciting, very fun, very touching in the end as well. Like the whole thing was pretty like I was very emotionally touched by the whole thing and especially the end. Yeah, yeah, that’s like as a short introduction. No, that’s great. Thank you. I’m so yeah, I’m so glad you were able to come. I didn’t wouldn’t have expected it because I know he’s a musician. He doesn’t have any money. He’s a good musician. Only the bad musicians have money to play stupid pop music. So, yeah, I mean, it was it was great. Yeah. So sort of so, you know, with Father Eric and Sally, Joe and Adam and and and Elizabeth was there, too. Right. And just eating stuff. That’s sort of the Peterson sphere. Right. That’s what we sort of call. Right. That’s that’s sort of the, you know, Peterson sphere dot com. We’ve got the timeline up. It’s looking good. You know, we’ve got this sort of thing that happened. Right. It’s all Peterson’s the lightning rod for it. Right. Symbolic world is sort of the closest and oldest sort of contingent within the Peterson sphere. That’s not Peterson. Right. Because Pigeot was with Peterson sort of in the beginning. Right. He caught him way before he got popular. And so this is the most mature in some ways community. I know we bandy about community. They even talked about that in the thing. A lot of people talk about community, but are they really this is really a community because you slap the name on it. But symbolic world really has a community. Right. They really have not just a following, but they have a bunch of projects going where they’re actually making things happen and doing things and getting together and putting on a wonderful conference. For me, the conference was much larger than I thought. I don’t know how many people were there exactly. I had a rumor it was 700. And that was expanded from like 500 or something. But there were a lot of people there. And the venue was really nice. We sort of got there a little early. Father Eric’s plane came in late. But Adam and Sally Jo and I were there sort of early. We went up to the Orthodox Church first. And then we were walking back down to the conference center. Neil deGrade was coming up the street. And he was like, Mark. And I was just like, this is so weird. All these people know me. I don’t know them that well. I’ll say I spotted them. I spotted them first. I spotted them in the auditorium. I was like, is that is that who I think it is? Yeah, I was like, I can’t tell. I just couldn’t tell. Right. But then later he was coming up the street while we were going down. He told me this wonderful thing. He said, yeah, I gave a talk a little while ago. And I was talking about navigation and patterns and stuff like that. Somebody told me there was a YouTube channel called Navigating Patterns. And I checked out your channel and looked at a couple of videos. I said, no, this isn’t for me. OK. And then he said, and then I think it was weeks later or something. Mitcher and I were talking about the YouTube channel. And then I think it was weeks later or something. Mitcher Pichot did his tweet where he basically gave what I still think of maybe immodestly as the best YouTube channel review of all time. It is good work. You really got to check it out. All right. My channel sort of blew up there. And he said, I’ve been watching you ever since. And I was like, OK, that’s a weird story. But I love it. It’s very symbolic worldy. Right. It’s very sort of what happens. And yeah, I really I had a lot of people come up to me and say, hey, Mark, you don’t know me, but I like your channel. I really found it helpful or I know people found it helpful. I was kind of blown away by that. So that was really nice. Just to be in with you. I wouldn’t have expected so many people from symbolic world or people interested in that to know my channel that well, although I’m sure mature had a lot to do with that. I wish he had been there. Unfortunately, he was not. But, you know, it was it was really nice for me. Sally, what did you what did you find, especially will say what kind of do it in order about the beginning, like the first day there, which is basically one speech in the conference. Right. I mean, especially just standing on the steps with the people willing to be there like hours early and stand on the steps and know each other. And they were the perfect steps because they were those long, slow steps underneath shade. And people just wanted to sit. And like, it’s like what you think about when you see those Greek paintings or everybody sits on the steps and talks about something. That’s what it was like. It was actually like that. I I you were so into it. I was worried about you dehydrating. And I was like, we’re going to find water for people because this is this is the kind of event I remember guys faint because they don’t drink water. And so, yeah, no, it was good. It was really good. But I think the in between portions were as much if not more valuable than the speaking. And I think they did a really good balance of that intentionally. Like, I don’t I think it was totally right to have the first day after lunch and to be less formal and then the following days to have the long lunches and have the breaks because you need the time. You bothered to come all the way out here. You need the time to see each other and know people. And also just having it at a more out of the way place helped with that, too, because it wasn’t in a fast paced place. They picked a place with a slow environment. There wasn’t a road going 100 miles an hour beside it. We could have had more amenities and that would not that would have been worse, actually. Would you would you think about the first day, Adam? What do you? Well, for me, it was kind of yeah, it was this kind of slow start. It was good that it was after lunch. I think the most interesting part for me of actually the first day was going into the Orthodox Church mainly because I had never been in one before. And it was kind of like I kind of because I’m a Catholic. I’m like, I have to navigate this like how is this? It’s familiar, but also unfamiliar. And then it was kind of looking at the iconography, you know, and then and then generally the first day it was when it came to the content of the conference, it was there. There wasn’t like it was Peugeot’s initial speech, I think. Right. And that that was and then and then we had the Derpore Robbins concert. That’s what’s kind of salient for me during that first day. But that the time with other people and it’s even even if you’re not talking to them, but you’re in the same space. I mean, there were a couple of this might have happened the second or third day. But like there are just things that you see, which is like you just don’t you don’t see it anywhere else. And you’re like, oh, that’s I’m really I’m glad that I could be here to see that. You know, and and I mean, when Father Eric, when Father Eric came, you know, you’re like, oh, your father acts over there. Go get him. And I’m like, OK, yeah. And this is during I think this is during Peugeot’s speech. And I kind of duck under the cameras and walk over to him. And it’s like, you know, he greets me with a hug. And I’m just like, wow, this is great. And so, yeah, certainly the first day there was there was kind of it was relaxed, but it was quite, I think, intimate. So, oh, I like strangely enough, strangely enough, you know, you think you think first day of the conference is going to be kind of what? No, people once people started talking, they started talking. I just I ended up talking to a dude in the line to get our little badges. I got two of them. I don’t know why I got two of them. I didn’t order two. The way I say it is I get two because of Irish. So that’s kind of. Yeah. So I think that’s kind of the way I see it. Yeah. So sounds sounds reasonable. So that was the first day for me anyways. Two more. What did you think of day one and all that? Please. Was crazy. We were also pretty early. I think we started, you know, building stuff at around 10. So we got there at nine thirty, I think, when got a coffee before that, we talked to two of the other volunteers. I think they were the ones that I was hanging out the most with as well. We were joking a lot throughout the whole conference. It was fun. And yeah, well, so we built everything like all the like the black stuff, like the curtains, I think. And then. I what I noticed was that I didn’t know John here’s like, of course, I heard of his brother. I think everyone on the office, we have office, we have has because of like the discussions that have been going on. But I didn’t know him or like the First Things Foundation. And I was kind of surprised because he had like he introduced himself as I think the cosmic clown or something like that. And I think he was a perfect choice for like being the moderator of the conference. You could have you could have gotten someone more formal and I think it would have disturbed the vibe of the conference. And he was he was just fun and very approachable. So that was that was pretty nice. And the Dirk Poore Robbins concert, I was really looking forward to that. Sadly, I was in and out all the time because we were like at the merch selling stuff as well. So I had to have to be there from time to time. But what I heard from it was amazing. It was really great seeing that. And yeah, I think it was a I think it was a proper start, like having only Pajol speech and then the concert. Otherwise, I think would have been harder to get into. But we won’t know. So yeah, that was it was yeah, it was it was great. It was great. And yeah, yeah, I like I like that. These are great points, right? I like that slow start just starting the afternoon, starting a day before you would expect it, right? It’s Thursday. And and and underbated some of that, too. Right. The slow start sort of thing. And I thought that was great. And yeah, hanging out on the steps. Sally was was awesome. I get to meet Aaron and Aaron in person and you gave you pencils. Right. You get free art supplies. It’s like bonus. Yeah. Little baby pencils. Beautiful little pencils. And yeah, the concert was wonderful. I was utterly shocked at how good they sound live. I’m completely blown away. Very few bands can sound as good live as they sound on an album. But man, Dirt Poor Robins. It’s almost identical. It’s really, really good. Yeah. The accuracy that they I mean, I think if I remember correctly, Kate and Neil met. When they were working on a musical production or something like that. So you know that they’re professionals. Right. But the accuracy that they display on their records and then life as well as just mind blowing. Yeah. I talked to like on I’ll talk to talk about that when we get to the second day. Yeah, it was it was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No, I will say Neil’s grade is incredible. Neil’s grade is an unbelievable guitarist. I was watching some of what he’s doing. I was like, wow, that’s amazing. I can’t because I can’t play because I have baby girl hands. I’ve been used to play guitar and it’s never going to happen. Never going to believe me. I spent hours. Now, I can’t hear. That was that was part of the reason why I switched to bass when I started playing. Not going to lie. I could probably play bass. Right. Yeah. Maybe a thin neck bass. But but I can’t hear how good guitarists are because I don’t have I don’t have that connection in my head. But when you watch them, you know, it’s like, oh, wow. Wow, that’s amazing. And Neil’s grade had that quality. The other thing, Father Eric said, he’s not here. I’ll prepare it for him. He couldn’t be here today. Unfortunately, he was like, yeah, that that solo had that kind of Steely Dan feel. I was like, OK, yeah, that does. It does have that Steely Dan feel. I agree with that. So, yeah, I thought that I thought the concert was was fantastic. I know we had a couple of technical problems, but like, wasn’t that bad? And the venue was really good for sound. Like it’s set up for that anyway, because half the venue is a gym with basketball court. I got it. I got to say, I got to say, getting it to that getting it to that point was a hassle, though. Like I watched the sound check. It took some time. Like it was it was it was a fight to get it to sound as good as it sounded at the concert in the end. Oh, yeah. Very impressed that they made it made it work. Also, I got to say, every time I watch a musician that good, I’m always half embarrassed that I call myself one because I like maybe I shouldn’t tell. But I’m sitting at home and I’m playing things like 200 times until I get them to some kind of the way that I want them to. And he’s standing there just as if it’s nothing. That’s that’s but good for me. They they don’t have like a shaming vibe. There’s some musicians where they actually shame you when you’re not as good as them. It’s the opposite with them. I feel highly motivated when I listen to like on my flight back, when I listen to Firebird for the first time. And then I think 10 times in a row, I listen to the whole record. So, yeah, it was amazing. Yeah. No, he probably has been practicing that over and over and over again. I don’t know for years. He doesn’t look like a young man to me. He looks like Santa Claus. That’s I’ll go with that forever. Yeah, I think I met the parents. I met his parents. They were like they were coming in. Where’s my son? Who is your son? Oh, it’s Neil from the band. Oh, yeah, Santa Claus. He’s over there. Yeah. Oh, that’s great. That’s great. Yeah, they had a little bookstore up front kind of right. Yeah, they did. They did such a good job. The venue was really good for that sort of thing. And being near the water and and the beautiful Florida weather didn’t hurt at all. Let me tell you, it’s rather nice. And the weather was perfect for the whole thing, too. That was the other thing. And it was nice, too, to transition sort of from the from the evening. Hey, how you doing? Kind of get together, find people to have meals with and whatnot into day two, which was the first day of sort of serious conference. Like now we’re going to now we’re going to conference like professional conference people. And yeah, doing the the Universal History Path for me was great because huge fans. Huge fan of Universal History. I think it’s fantastic. Huge fan of Richard Rowland. I did get to shake his hand to. That was on the last day. Yeah, it was nice. I got to get him on Twitter. I can’t message him on Twitter, so I got to fix that. Or maybe he’ll hear this and fix it. Yeah, it was it was it was great to be able to to hear what people were saying in person, because I think it makes a difference. The only bad part for me was the gymnasium, which is where Universal History was, had terrible sound. Yeah, I mean, I can tell you, I’ve said it before. I just. Lighting is almost impossible, but sound is actually impossible. Like even in a tiny room like that, I got soundproofing all over the place. You can’t see it. That’s the way it should be, by the way. I got soundproofing. Right. I’ve got the microphone right here. You’ve got a good microphone. Right. Sound is impossible. And the only problem with the gymnasium was if you sat far back, which I generally prefer to do, there was too much echo. Yeah, sure. Oh, and that was that was the issue for me. So so the second talk in the gymnasium, I was right up front. And that actually did fix most of the problem. It wasn’t a huge problem, but it was a little bit of an issue there. So that got that got fixed. But it’s different when you’re there in person listening to somebody like Richard Roland speak. Right. Or Jonathan Bichot or whomever on the stage. There’s that dynamism that isn’t there otherwise. And I like I like what you pointed out, Sally, about space. Space is super important to be doing a video on space. It’s probably a live stream at some point on space. Space is the thing that people are missing because we get these stupid cell phones that steal our attention all the time. And we’re getting used to having our attention. Yeah. My mind’s way over there. Usually I have it right here, but it’s being charged. Yeah. It’s chucking across the room. Yeah. You know, we’re used to getting our attention constantly pulled. And then we wonder why we’re anxious. Well, you’re anxious because when space comes along and I, you know, I guess my argument would be space is where wisdom happens. Then then you get anxious because you’re like expecting the next, you know, people have reported this whole thing where they feel a buzz from their phone, even though that their phone’s not on them or it’s not buzzing. So their brain is looking for this constant attention grabber and it’s not there. And the nice thing about the conference is going to throw all the attention grabbers away. Excellent. I’ve got my email shut off on the laptop. Yeah, I do all kinds of little things. The amazing thing about the conference, I don’t know if you guys noticed this, I didn’t even want to look at my phone because all the stuff that I was interested in wasn’t there. Right. I think the only one who used his phone was Jordan. That seems to be it generally. Yeah, and amazing that he could be there and be relaxed. That was, yeah. Yeah, I didn’t know who he was. He was amazing. I mean, he just made the whole conference like really like having Joe there’s awesome and having to roll in there is awesome and and seeing the country’s awesome but John here’s did such a good job. He was so funny and you can tell he totally understands the language. He gets all the Verveki language. He gets all the symbolic world language. He just understands the Peterson sphere lingo really well and the jokes he told about lingo almost had me on the floor for real. I mean, I was just in stitches. Emergence. Yeah, inside words. I remember that. Inside words, outside words and he kept going back like a good comic does that right they make one of those one of those jokes, and then they go back and they refer back to it over time, and he was so good with that he did that with like three or four of his jokes. And yeah, he did such a good job. That really kind of holds everything together right like that’s the job of the MC is to hold everything together. Do those transitions right through things over between between the spaces right through the spaces over. Yeah, and I think the nice thing about this conference was the amount of space in it. Thunder Bay had a nice amount of space to but but given the size, I was really surprised that there was that much space. And the other thing, especially the first couple days. No one was mobbing the stars that that didn’t all true in the end. But in the beginning, people were really respectful and Joe is like just hanging out, no one bothering him you just talking to people who needs to talk to. Right. So I thought that was really good. I really, I really like that. Yeah, you don’t want to embarrass yourself like really it’s, it’s not like you’re going to like a rock concert or something, because the thing that you’re there for is like the intellectual bit. And so if you then walk up to everyone’s like oh can we take a picture can we take a picture. I’m not I’m not like criticizing people took pictures, but it’s, it’s kind of weird, like, to me it felt weird to reduce it to that. So, in the end, like I didn’t ask for one. And in the end I walked by like the VIP room where Jonathan was talking to the other guys, and he called me in so that we could get one and I told him like I’m glad you asked because I didn’t want to. That was, yeah. How much more special have that picture, then when you force. And, and this is where I’d say, there was some pictures to entry that people are absolutely crying about. But I’m glad that they existed, and they wouldn’t have had money, but how would you put another one on. Because you can’t exactly have people climb a mountain right now. Although that would be a cool bar to entry. I can’t climb this mountain. Next year, next year. Why is a level of serious commitment, and like, having only so many tickets be available, having to advance having Greek Florida. All of these things were things that people had to overcome so the people that did come paid in this other kind of way too. And that’s part of what puts people in the right headspace to be there. And you can hate that if you want to. But that is what makes things good. It’s right. It’s like putting on dress clothes to go to church. Well, if you show up stinking from the skate park, it’s not as nice for everyone as if you have to come in your cleanest. Like, I’m not saying ritziest either, just cleanest. You know, it’s that simple. Yeah, yeah, the filter is important. It was expensive. Why is this conference so expensive? Oh my goodness. What is going on here? Yeah, I, you know, I’m a big fan of filter like people don’t understand, right? Because we were all thinking about equality. But the filter is important because it makes sure the riffraff doesn’t get in the riffraff can get in. They’re going to riffraff and they’ll ruin it for everybody. Like for me, that is the only thing remotely like that I’ve for sure done in five years, but maybe in my life because I’m very prudish about spending money. I don’t like to. I like to buy stuff that’s going to make me more money, but I don’t I don’t just spend on trips or clothes or whatever. I don’t do that. And so it was a very unique and distinct thing within my life. And I’m glad that I did that. You know, like it’s I don’t know. It wasn’t Disney World. I wouldn’t have paid that to go to Disney World and you would have. Nobody would complain either because that’s how much Disney World costs. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, Adam, you kind of you kind of came from from quite a distance there and sort of at the last minute, too, right? So and what was what did you sort of think overall the quality of people and stuff that were that were there and the events and stuff? Now we can’t hear you. You’re on mute. Did you mute yourself? Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s that’s my bad. Yeah, there were a lot of families there. It was great. That was that was I think one of the major parts for me was seeing, you know, husbands and wives and their children. And then, you know, those who weren’t, you know, there with their spouses or whatever. You had I mean, it was a it was a great set of people to talk to. And yeah, I think having having a sort of barrier to entry in that way probably did filter out the people who would like mob. I don’t know, mob Peterson or mob Peugeot. I think I really enjoyed it. I met a lot of Catholics there who I’ve tried to keep in touch with, which is great. And yeah, it’s good. It’s good. Oh, yeah, there were a lot. There were a lot of Catholics there, weren’t there? We were at Forest, Berkeley. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, like I flew in from from Ireland. I think it was something like a 12, 13 hour flight in total transit like and, you know, like, you know, you were nice enough to pick me up and drive me out there. We we we shared a hotel room, which was great. And so like having that and then coming in, talking to all the people, I think. Yeah, it was a great experience. I was really, really happy. There are young guys like me who were who were there who came out from, you know, some of them are coming from from all over all over the US. And one of them I met was an artist and he was kind of saying, you know, oh, there’s not there’s nothing like this here that we have here for artists. And like I heard I heard that from you, Sally beforehand. And I’m like, OK, fair enough. And then when I kept on hearing it, I’m like, oh, this is this is something that’s very unique, I guess, in the artistic space that’s happening here that I don’t really have. I wouldn’t have had a full appreciation of. I mean, in some sense, I’m kind of here for the history. Yeah, well, I’m going to I’ll apologize to both of you up front. Artists suck. And they’re like it’s like herding cats and they’re never on time for anything. And getting to do anything is impossible. So, yeah, I mean, but this was this is great for artists in particular. So I think I think, Jumor, you came from the furthest. So what was your trip like and how was the what did what did you find stood out to you, we’ll say about the attending attendees? Well, yeah, I came from Europe. So I think I do think I had the furthest trip from everyone attending. I wouldn’t know for sure, but I think so. That was was fun. I never been to the States before. The furthest I’ve been was like, I think the Dominican Republic, sometime in the 2010s, like family vacation. So that was that was very interesting to see that to see that the United States are actually a real place and it’s just some made up bit that like Hollywood came up with or whatever. So that was that was fun. I told that everyone that wanted to hear and I think a few people who didn’t want to hear it. We Europeans, we grow up with like media portraying the United States, the states. And so every movie that we watch and every show and whatever is like filled with your particularities. And then being confronted with that, like on a normal level, let’s say is is quite maybe that’s a bit too big of a word, but it’s quite surreal to some degree. And then about the attendees, I think that. The whole thing, I think, Pajon mentioned that as well. The whole thing seemed like a dream. Like it didn’t seem. Excuse me for a second. I’m sorry. Didn’t seem like a didn’t like it. Yeah, it seemed like a dream. And the people there were all very, very open, very much willing to share their life experiences. And just, you know, get into conversations right away. Like you have normally you have like I’m weird about meeting people until I like I’m comfortable with you. I’m kind of a kind of yeah, kind of kind of quiet. And so people just crossed that bridge very, very quickly. I can’t remember everyone’s names, but they were like a bunch of people who just came up and then told me how they got there. And like one guy told me about like like a healing journey that pretty like personal stuff, but it didn’t feel out of place to share it. It seemed like the proper place to do so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get that sense as well. Like a lot of people seem to be because they all knew they were there roughly for the same reason. Right. Like we have we’re we’re we’re there’s an ethos. Right. There’s a purpose behind this. It has a telos. And people know why they’re there. They know what they’re doing. They know roughly that they’re interested in symbolism, either the artsy side of symbolism or the historical side of symbolism. Or maybe they’re just there for the stories for Martin Shaw’s stuff, which I didn’t get obviously enough of. I got to dive deep on. He had some of the most penetrating, interesting things to say. I actually have notes that I wrote on my cell phone. I looked for off the whole time, but every once in a while cell phone comes in handy. I was using it for notes. So I thought that was really nice. But yeah, you’re right. The attendees had this certain familiarity. And so it was very easy to get in conversation with them. I’m also a bit of an introvert. I don’t people come up to me and I’m like, oh, OK, you know, have me. I don’t. Yeah. Yeah. The whole the whole room felt like there was I mean, that’s maybe a bit weird to say. But the whole room really felt like there was like I had that thought for a second. It’s like literally no one in this room is out to get me. That’s like, yeah, that was that was that was nice. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t full of strangers, but it’s full of people you didn’t yet meet. And that was OK because you knew those people when you met them. You were going to like them, right? They were right there. They’re not they’re not threatening at all. And Elizabeth was telling us she couldn’t be here. She’s off in Italy or on route to Italy or something. It was nice to meet up with her there. She was saying that Tarpon Springs had the largest Greek concentration of Greek people in the United States because of the sponge farming, because they’re right on the Gulf Coast. And sponges grow there. And and we ended up telling and Elizabeth and Justine and I ended up ended up going to a little soap and sponge shop that was very nice. And it was nice to see the familiar faces there. You know, I obviously knew Father Eric was going and you saw Joe was going. Adam was going right. I didn’t know if Elizabeth was going to be there. Right. I knew the speakers were going to be there. There are a bunch of people there that I didn’t expect. A few people I hadn’t met that I knew from online. Right. But yeah, it was no no one was really threatening. Except for maybe that one little incident that maybe we’ll maybe we’ll touch on later in the Q&A. But nobody was really threatening at all or everybody was getting along. Everybody was there for the same reason. They were there to do the same thing, which is to explore the symbolic world. Right. And and to to talk about this cosmic image and what we can do about the cosmic image. Well, when you’re looking at the cosmic image, you’re looking up and you’re you know, you’re roughly speaking, trying to at least look for or at the same thing. And and that I think is very important because when you have that enchanted view of the world, that three dimensional view of the world instead of the flat view of the world, politics or economics, you know, you can do things like cooperate and have a really large conference. And and everyone gets along and has a great time and no one feels threatened. And so conversations are more more easily had. Sally, what about you? What about your experience with like the attendees and the people there? And because you’re pretty shy. I what? OK, you’re just no, I’m not shy. But no, it was very good. Yeah, people were there for they had that common thing that was outside of each of them that allows people to work together. And and that was immediately apparent. And it was really interesting because even though you have the whole Orthodox group and the Catholic group and the other strays like me in there, there wasn’t really tension. I don’t think there was any like, oh, well, this is the real truth going on hardly at all. There was a lot of like, what do you have to offer and taking it in and breaking bread and trying to hear each other and and that why do you have interest and how does that compare to why I have interest? And then there was so much similar things going on. And I think the split between history and art, it was really cool to define that and make people choose because it really showed two of the major strains that were not religious. How awful would it have been if we like, oh, Catholic, go to the sermon or go to this room? No, that would have tore people apart. But separating out the art from the history somehow pulled people together. Like the this guy that I met, the Aaron, we had both decided because somehow it made sense to go to the symbolic world with a new sketch pad and a new watercolor set. And we had bought the same brand name of watercolors. And we just kind of geeked out over that for a minute because that and I don’t know why that made sense. Right. But it was very fun to find out that that made the same kind of sense to another person from the same space as me. And that was very unifying. And I think a lot of people were enjoying that. Yeah. And you hadn’t even met Aaron online. I’ve talked to him many times. And that was online. That’s that front step experience. Right. Before we even got badges. Right. That was that was lovely. Yeah. I think I met him online once or twice, but I’m not I’m not sure. I don’t think so. Not that I could recall. Yeah, I don’t know that you’ve run into him. He was on BLM a few times and he would pop in at really weird times and have really long conversations about about what he was doing, which interesting projects for sure. But yeah, and I hadn’t seen his sort of artsy side because he was more just talking about VR and what he was doing to help people and things like that. Yeah, his his project, the storytelling and all that is what what he’s more into. Adam, what did you think about? I mean, did you did you interact with any of the orthodox or any of the sort of outcasts other than other than me? That sort of sort of didn’t you know, aren’t Catholic, aren’t orthodox or just sort of there? Yeah, well, I talked to a couple of orthodox guys. Yeah. And that was interesting. I think to a large degree, a lot of the guys ended up talking to kind of just by chance were Catholic or Catholic adjacent. But I think I think I mean, yeah, it wasn’t there was I mean, there wasn’t like outward tensions, but I mean, it certainly on the first was the first day or second day. Father Stephen DeYoung was kind of needling Latin a little bit. And I was I wasn’t having that. I was like, no, this is not this is, you know, he’s like, we’ve got to go to Greek because Latin and Virgil are boring. Latin and Virgil is boring. And I’m like, you know, and I’m glad I’m glad a lot of the Catholics in the audience were like, no, we’re not having this. Father Eric stood up. Father Eric stood up in his Roman cassock. He does canon law. So he’s he’s one of the guys who knows Latin very well as part of his duties within the church. But I mean, yeah, that was fun and games really at the end of the day, you know, you know, I got to talk to a recent convert to orthodoxy and he was telling me about like so. So he took out his prayer rope. I don’t know if that’s the correct term. And I took out I took out my my my rosary, which is here. And I said, oh, you know, how do you pray the prayers and stuff like that? And it’s pretty similar structure. I mean, right at the end of the day. And then we were talking about, you know, liturgical year feast days. I was like, yeah, I mean, you guys had dormition recently. That’s what we call assumption, you know, but the same day, same day of the year, unlike Easter, you know, depending on the calendar that you’re on, orthodox and Catholic, it will vary. But something like dormition and assumption. So it was kind of very kind of insight based by the way that I was talking about. So it was kind of very kind of inside baseball, Christian Easter. But it was good. And it was it was a good kind of exchange to be there for that time anyways. Yeah, yeah. I am I have some notes of things that that that stood out to me. Some of them are probably quotes. So I did want to go through some of that and just sort of by way of reflection. Right. These are sorts of the things and I won’t do them all at once. That would be 18, 18 lines. We are one of the things that stood out to me. This is almost certainly day one. I don’t know what spawn this, you know, this particular thought. I’m typing on my phone. You know, I can’t take full notes. I don’t have a keyboard in front of me. Thank goodness. Thank goodness I didn’t. You know, we we try to self generate intimacy as an individual. And and the fact that something like that would come out in it, I mean, it’s appropriate symbolic world. Right. Symbolism is all about connections. Right. This multivariate sort of many connectedness of the world enchanted way of seeing the world. And I’ve been I’ve been sort of ruminating in the mature Peugeot in sense on that. And I see it everywhere now. I just watched a talk that Manuel somehow thought I should watch and I should. It was just I was like, what did you make me watch? This is terrible. What are these people talking about? This is awful. But now that I have that that framing, it’s very interesting to see that in action where people are sort of subsuming the world into themselves. And then saying, well, I did this. It’s like, I mean, you know, did you though? Was it was it the you that did that or or or are you embedded in in something like a like you call it? I use some random word like creation that was here before you that was curated for you by by many people you never meet, never would have met. Right. Your ancestors and the ancestors of others who built the world. And now you’re you know, you’re taking advantage. And rightly so. I mean, they left it for you of that of that stuff. Right. To do more things. Right. Which is hopefully hopefully more things towards the good and not. But that whole idea that we try to self generate intimacy as an individual, because that’s going to fail because intimacy isn’t about you. It’s about the quality of the relationship with something else. Again, there’s three, well, really four things like this. You the thing, the relationship and the quality. Right. And so I found that I found that deeply helpful. Another thing that that sort of that sort of occurred to me, I don’t know where the hell this came from. The idea of rationality, we’ll say, you know, more in the biblical frame is self-awareness. And for this ability. Right. This is obviously going back to the tree and the fruit and that whole. I didn’t read that story. I heard it’s good. You must now work. Right. And so you gain self-awareness, but now you have to work. Because I think that’s part of the lesson. And so I know I know it’s at work. But I think and I think because a lot of people are down on work and I’m like, I don’t know, people need to work. Why? Well, maybe because we were given functionality. All this self-awareness you want is work. Right. It’s work to be self-aware. So those were those are sort of the first two things. I don’t know, Sally, you got you get some notes or some thoughts, things that occurred to you during the conference as a whole. Or as a result of I very much enjoyed Martin Shaw’s. Or, yeah, it’s the 12 secret name idea. But I mean, everything he said was just like he was like. It’s like everyone else is talking with existential crisis and he’s not. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he has a video called 12 secret names on his channel to actually watch it. It’s a short one. It’s and basically we’ve all been talking about this disenchantment of the world, the disenchantment of the world, the disenchantment of the world. And at no point have I seen anybody even imply that perhaps we could re-enchant it. And he seems to be like, oh, yeah, right here. And that was pretty cool. Pretty cool. Please. No, that’s something I noticed as well is that the whole thing that Jonathan is doing, especially with his articles and the way he talks about symbolism, it’s like laying out and explaining, let’s say, the mystery to some degree and getting people and it’s necessary getting people to, you know, lay off the old of the new way of thinking and take on the old way of thinking and seeing the world. But in a similar way that John, he has pulled the conference together on a let’s say on a technical level. Martin Shaw did so on a different level. He wasn’t talking so much about what’s going on. He was just telling stories mostly. And that’s the I think that’s the point. Like he was the he was the summit of the summit in a sense, because that was the thing that we’re actually working towards is to be able to do that and to understand them as well. But understand them not intellectually, but understand them instinctually. It’s like someone explaining to you what a gymnast does. And Jonathan has and Jordan and Verveki and on and on have been explaining what gymnasts do. And Martin Shaw just very graciously did like the forms right through the roof. And everybody’s like, we’ve been looking for that. Yeah. But I like I like where that went. Yeah, I’m probably remiss on my part. Right. Like what what is the the the summit? It’s reclaiming the cosmic image. It’s like, oh, what is the cosmic image? How do we reclaim it? Well, it’s this thing that requires symbolism, roughly speaking. Right. It requires many, many relationships. No, it’s you said roughly speaking, I said buck or that’s just because it’s a dumb joke. No, it was a good joke. I like it. I like it. But yeah, yeah. You know, I and it is a difference. I would call it more intuitive or experiential is what Martin Shaw did. He dragged you into the experience in the we’ll say the stories that he was outlining. And and that’s what this conference was about to a large extent was reclaiming this cosmic image. What does that mean? I mean, I call it revivification. Right. That’s more Peterson frame. Right. But yeah, you know, you want to get to the point where that that idea of the cosmic image is something that you can intuitively have an experience with. And and that I thought was why the opening the space was so important as well. So it was kind of I should have opened with that. But hey, you get what you pay for. We’re here. We’re doing it. People’s inability to understand metaphor because of the scientific language is one of the biggest burdens we’re under. And you put when you put a materialistic scientific way of talking, if you’re doing that, you’re dissecting in a very harmful way. Even if you’re speaking scripture, you’re dissecting in a harmful way because the relationship like a relationship to information can be like a relationship to another person. And that’s why when they were describing wisdom and hope and faith, they would make these personifications. I just reread a little bit of Proverbs today and they have the personification of wisdom. Proverbs. And if you’re thinking in a scientific language and reading that and not imagining it as a personification of wisdom, because it says as she says, and like this personifying wisdom in this other way. And like this personifying wisdom in this other way. And it really it flattens it out. It’s like it’s like it’s like taking the extract of an apple and making the apple flavor and then putting it in Kool-Aid versus having a whole apple that has a seed apple in it that could actually give you infinite apples like Kool-Aid and apple. Like an actual apple that could birth more apples. Right. Right. It’s self replicating in some sense. Right. An apple. A myth, because especially spoken myth, isn’t meant to be stagnant. It’s not meant to be dissected. It’s not meant to be particular. It’s an essence of a thing that gives birth to more of the essence of the thing. Right. Well, that’s that that’s the reciprocally opening thing, Sally. And I think so Sally Jo, who is probably the best person ever, found this book, which says Poetic Knowledge. All right. And the Recovery of Education. And, you know, that’s this is an argument or disagreement with John Vervecky about the types of knowing. I will still argue it’s not really knowledge, it’s information, but it’s that idea that, yeah, look, I mean, you’re not going to be able to engage with church, with deep story, with any of these things. If you don’t have a way of poetically informing the world or parabolically informing the world, as Mary Cohen’s original term was parabolic knowing. If you don’t have that, you’re going to run into problems. The sorts of problems that you’re going to run into are an inability to see and experience the world the way somebody who has that can. So like if if if somebody from the Vervecky camp were to go to symbolic world, I don’t get any of them are interested. I don’t remember seeing any of them there. They wouldn’t get anything out of it at all. I think that’s true. I think mere exposure is not going to work because they’re very scientific. I saw a tweet, I think it was yesterday. In fact, I sort of talk about this on Twitter is the age of gnosis. Someday I’ll get my sub stack up and write about the age of gnosis. They actually said in a tweet that text information was richer than being there in person. And I was like, what kind of a lunatic makes an inane statement like that statement is unintelligible to me. I don’t even know how anybody could like say that. And they typed it out into Twitter and sent it to everybody. And I’m like, maybe this person shouldn’t have Twitter. Maybe maybe they shouldn’t have the ability to transmit their ideas to anyone but their closest friends who can kind of pat them on the head. And yes, and then back away slowly because I just couldn’t imagine anybody saying that text had a richer information form than anything else. Because it is the lowest form of information, technically speaking. Like if you want to break it down mathematically, I’m actually a data scientist, among other things. I can do that for you. That’s why computers work because you can represent text as ones and zeros. Technically, that’s how all computers work, by the way. It’s very information sparse, very information sparse. That’s why it can be broken down into, I actually think technically seven bits. You don’t even need eight bits. Eight bits, eight zero or one states. And so why are you making a statement about the text being richer than some any other form? It’s got to be the bottom of the barrel. They want the extract. Don’t give them the apple. They want the Kool-Aid extract apple. Way more information in the Kool-Aid extract. And it’s not. It’s your trading accuracy and precision, roughly speaking. That’s what scientific information is. It’s accurate and precise for depth and richness. And depth is another thing that sort of came up with Martin Shaw. He actually said, let me just find it real quick. It’s somewhere here in my notes. Myth is the wildest, deepest way of telling the truth. That’s a quote, I believe, from Martin Shaw. And I was just like, oh, I think we should write that down. That’s really important. And I think that’s what going to a conference and interfacing with people gives you. I mean, you can look at it. You’d say forums are like down here and then talking to people alive is here. And then seeing them on YouTube because you have the video is here. But then going in person, it blows them all away. Dr. Shaw also had this idea that within a story, there is the skin, the flesh and the bone. And then he demonstrated how that worked if you paid attention. And so the skin is the thing you touch. The skin is the thing you make contact with. So your colloquial references, your location. He did this neat thing where he was telling this story about this magical fox that asked for some soup. And he said, but here, he’s like, in England, it’s a fox. But here it would be the coyote. And that made so much sense to me because it wasn’t about it being a fox or a coyote. It was about it being your local nuisance animal. Right. And he would put these affectations on his characters and say, like, they were like this pop culture reference, even though these were these ancient stories. And he was doing that to give them skin you could touch. And then the flesh, I don’t know how to demonstrate how he did that. I know that he did that, but I don’t know how to demonstrate. But the bones is the pivot angles. And so what was the story about? Was it to show a gratitude? Was it to show self-transformation? Those are the bones within the story. And that’s why you can take that’s what they do in plays when little kids do plays. You can have little kids do plays and they can do it poorly and can still have the same bones because there are essential things that make it Cinderella, essential things that make it Robin Hood, essential things that make it all these different things. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting as well that with with Martin Shaw, because he was telling stories to the entire audience. And I guess for a lot of people in the audience, that was an entirely novel thing. But being from Ireland, that wasn’t actually novel for me. That was most of my childhood, which was then stripped away as I grew older and I became more skeptical. And I kind of would dissect the stories and in some sense kill them. But that was that was kind of where I was coming from. And so it was interesting to see all all these people get taken in really like it was it was it was. And I kind of I had an idea of what was going on. It’s like, oh, this is pretty familiar. Yeah. I mean, he’s doing it for the US. But yeah, good enough. You know, the cowboy poetry is that way. And the tall tales. And we have thing if you tell a story big enough and they believe you, it’s their fault. And so that’s kind of always going on where I’m from. But I do agree with you is like I slowly got annoyed with that because I wanted to be taken seriously. And I wanted to be part of this other part of culture that looked more powerful and more serious and more reasonable. That wasn’t bothering to tell the 30 point buck story or the white the white porcupines. Oh, my gosh. There’s this white porcupine story where you catch the white porcupine right here. And that’s how you catch it. And people will go into a hunting story and then it will become the white porcupine story. And so it’s there at all. It’s not real, but it’s a very goofy thing. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Ireland has this tradition of storytelling and the Irish are sort of famous for their tall tales. It’s who you would call them and their colorful enhancements or maybe exaggerations of events. And because you do have that that that very sort of tradition, right, where where the magical world and and the material world are the right together, and at any minute you could just cross over just like that without even without even realizing it. Right. Ireland very much has that that ethos to it. A. I’m part Irish and B. I grew up around Boston’s a lot of Irish. I’m very familiar with the Irish for better or for worse. Gun runners. Right. So so they you know, but there is that actual that flavor. And it is you know, I want to look back to something to more. I was saying the problem problem with the U.S. is that especially when you get a Hollywood vision, you get a Hollywood vision of a part of the U.S. U.S. is basically people understand people here don’t understand. The U.S. is enormous. It’s a ridiculously large place. And so there are vastly different cultures. And one of the things I was doing the other day is I’ve got I’ve got to be on my phone and it’s got all these old TV shows. And one of them is called Spencer for hire, which is Robert P. Parker is the is the author. And they did a TV show on his stuff. It’s set in Boston and he grew up in Boston. So it’s like a Boston TV show filmed in Boston with people who speak New England language from, you know, from olden times and not that old. And unfortunately, and you know, all the place references are places I know. And and I remembered when I was watching, I’m like, oh, I’m going to watch an episode of this while I’m taking a bath, you know, sort of thing, because I was trying to relax. It’s very overwhelming for me. There’s a lot going on. And and I was like just appreciating. That’s not the same as Chicago fire. Right. Language they use, the colloquial isms, all different. It’s not the same as what you’d experience in Florida, especially not in a Greek neighborhood. Right. It’s not the same as what you would experience in the Midwest. Right. Different types of stories, different settings, different animals, different everything. And yet the bones are recognizable to to to your point. The bones are there and they’re and they’re sort of recognizable within the stories and those deeply important stories are the way in which we have things in common. Now, the way I outline it, I’m navigating patterns, you know, you haven’t seen my channel, you really should. Right. It’s it’s story. That’s at the at the lowest level. Right. And then narrative are the templates or the patterns. Right. And then they’re pointing up to the archetype. And so you’re never living in the narrative. The narrative is something hinted at by many stories. So many stories might hint at one or more narratives. Those narratives are pointing up at the archetypes. And that’s why I think they’re so hard to grab on to. And a lot of people, Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Peugeot, John Vervicki in particular, had a wonderful conversation probably about a year ago now. But they kept switching between using the word narrative and story. And I was like, no, no, you have to separate those two. It’ll make it more understandable for you. Right. But you really get that sense, especially with Martin Shaw, because, you know, myth is the deepest wildest and deepest way of telling the truth. Right. And and I think that’s super important. I actually like that, like the way he the way he said that. I missed to bring it up, I think, like 20 minutes ago, but I’d like to go back for a second to what Adam was saying about the say the the attendees being consisting of Orthodox and Catholics and then some of the others. I think, first of all, going to the Greek church, the St. Nicholas Church there as a Catholic probably made most sense to become a little bit more familiar, familiarized with orthodoxy, because it was like a mixture. Let’s say the as I understood it, the iconographer that they got when they built the church was was a Catholic. And so much of the iconography is very, very Catholic as opposed to what we see in the general Orthodox churches that we have. And so I think that was probably made it easier maybe for Catholics to like get to know it a little. And then there was the organ as well, which is something that we usually don’t have as far as I know in Orthodox churches. I mean, it happens, but it’s very like we have we use it’s not canon or anything like that. It’s not like we have something that forbids the use of instruments as far as I know. But we just don’t do it. We have choirs and then that’s that. And so that was probably probably something that makes it more familiar. And then the other thing is also to that is maybe one of the most valuable things that I learned from Jonathan is that as an orthodox, obviously, I would like for everyone to be orthodox. I mean, as a Christian, you should everyone, you know, you should want everyone to be Christian because that’s the way to heaven. And that’s a that’s a loving act to want that. But the approach that you have, especially and I’m guilty of that as well as a like a new convert or something like is that you argue with people and you try to convince them. And the thing that I learned from Jonathan was that it’s like you shouldn’t try to convince people. Doesn’t mean that you can’t, let’s say, argue your case that you can’t present orthodoxy and wish for people to see what you see. But it’s I don’t think that it ever helped anyone when you you go at them and like, yeah, you have to convert now. It’s so yeah. So yeah, I think that overly propositional just completely planning it out and rather than kind of pointing to the deeper things, which really, you know, if it comes to stuff like conversion, that’s that’s that’s very important. That’s that’s that’s really what’s it’s made of in some sense. Or it’s it’s it’s a it consists of rather than this kind of like, yeah, back and forth and propositions. I didn’t know that church had an organ. I actually I didn’t even occur to me, but I guess it did. I think that also makes sense, though, because in the dome, they don’t have Christ Pantocrator. They have got the father. Yeah. Yeah, they do. They do. Yeah. So all the Catholic churches I’ve been in have had have had a depiction of God the Father or the Ancient of Days. And so I don’t I don’t I’m not I’m not too I’m not too sure about all that. Yeah, I don’t it’s yeah, I don’t I don’t want to speak too much on it. It’s I don’t I don’t enjoy it. I don’t like when they when they portray God the Father. I think it’s like I can’t I think you can make an argument for the Ancient of Days, especially since it’s not the father. It’s Christ as far as I understand it. But like this is one it’s it is an odd orthodox depiction. I think it’s from the 18th century where you have Christ sitting on one side and then you have Christ sitting on the other side as well. It looks exactly the same, but with gray hair. And then you have like the Holy Spirit depicted as a dove. And so that’s like you can try to make an argument for that because Christ says he who has seen the Father has seen me. And if you want to symbolically show a father, then it would make sense to depict him with like gray hair or something. But I I I I was uneducated as I am. I just shy away from it. I think it’s good that we don’t show the father because yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, on that, Peterson, when he was talking, there was a there was a big significant kind of portion where he’s talking about fatherhood and it was interesting because he was always describing it as emerging rather than something which comes down from above. He was always kind of always pointing to, well, it’s the kind of the amalgamation of all your ancestors, like you as a father is a kind of amalgamation of all your you know, all your your father and your father’s father and et cetera, et cetera. But there wasn’t this kind of recognition of father of all things, of all things that are so that, you know, that that could be, you know, emerging. It’s like fatherhood is possibly, I don’t know, maybe the least right. It is something that emanates down from above because and it comes I mean, it comes straight from like it’s mentioned in the scriptures. All fatherhood gains its name from the Father in heaven. That’s it. That’s just so it’s explicit. It’s like it’s it’s an emanation. I think I think in the experience, though, you can maybe try and make a case for partial emergence because like I’m trying to I’m trying to like actively move towards that role away from, you know, like I’m at the end of my 20s. So it’s I think it’s a good it’s good time to move away from from the from the sun towards the father, let’s say. And like not religiously speaking, but like personally speaking. And I think that is something that for me, it is something that I feel is emerging out of like my depths, let’s say, definitely like necessarily informed from above. But I think that’s the that’s the one case where you can maybe try to make it emergence. But otherwise, like you’re obviously right, like this identity comes from above above as technically every identity and the sun should come from above. Right. No, that’s a that’s a good point. I mean, I think that, you know, I mean, not to not to criticize the great man, but Peterson tends to use the psychological frame immediately. And the psychological frame is inherently bound up in individualism. It’s about you and your relationship to the outside world. And so your experience, all of your experience has to be emergent. Has to be right. The question is, what informs you? What what is the formation? It could be many things. If you’re not informed by the emanation from above, then what are you being informed by? Right. And that I think is, you know, we’ll say one of the things that’s sort of missing that symbolism gives you the way to relate to that. That’s again goes back to why I think it’s important to differentiate between story narrative and archetype. Right. Because it’s the archetype that comes down upon you and says, you know, this is what the hero looks like. Right. Or this is what the what the old woman should do. Right. Or or this is this is what the relationship between you and nature should be. Those are archetypal ways of thinking about things. Right. And they are communicated through narrative templates. Right. And that’s what forms the story. The story is the instance with the instantiation of our acting it out in the world. Right. How how did this happen for us? It goes back to, you know, sort of, you know, Sally Joe’s earlier point about, you know, the white porcupine story just kind of happens. Everybody’s white porcupine story is different, except they all have the same bones. Right. It’s all about catching white porcupine here. Right. And so. OK. Yeah, I don’t know that story, by the way. Sounds lovely. They will have to make Sally tell us at some point. But but everybody makes that narrative their own by telling it as a story. Right. As an implementation or instantiation individual to them and their experience and their conditions and their time. This time is something that’s missing. I think that you need symbolism to understand time. And when you don’t have symbolism or when you compress time down to zero, you start to lose all of these things like the ability to see symbolically. Like a lot of people are just having discussions around, well, you know, this and you’re here and you could be there. And it’s like, OK, but you were somewhere else before. And what does that transformation look like? That’s why, you know, I like this idea. Another thing that was said, revivifying the garment of skin in modernity. Right. Like, yeah, there’s a revivification. Like, we have to keep going. You know, I hate I hate it. I hate to plug it, but like mediocrity, my life, my live stream a few weeks ago, that’s what I was talking about. I just remembered everything about the veil. Oh, the veil was great. Tell us about the veil. Who talked about the veil? Jonathan talked about the veil. Dr. Shaw talked about Dr. Shaw. Dr. Marshall. Oh, they all they all talk because the garment is veiled. So imagine you got a thing and you can’t see it with your eyes, but it has shape and presence in a room. How do you see it? You throw something over it. So, I mean, I mean, for some reason in my head, I imagine an invisible dog because dogs have this tendency to just like lay right in front of you. So you trip over them and like get to first you when you’re not paying attention. And so like you throw a blanket over that sucker and you know where it is. You know what it’s doing. That is the function of a lot of these stories. That is the function of a lot of art because there are things beyond the scope of language that you throw something over them and it shields you from the purest reality of them in a way. But it allows you to handle them appropriately. And then you start thinking of this garment of skin that was inherited through time. That’s what had to put we had to start putting these veils between us and each other because the realness of us and each other is too much. And that is same with forbidden knowledge. Like there’s some stuff kids shouldn’t know until an appropriate age. There’s it’s it’s harmful for the mass public to know where all of our operators are overseas because you’ll get killed. Like there’s these veils and the value of the veil and the function. I just I so understand it in a way that was never available to me. And I also realize probably a lot of Orthodox and Catholics have an appropriate understanding of it. And that was just something missing to me as a Protestant because that’s just not something that’s discussed in that way. And so it was very, very good information. Which is like the point about like the point of virginity and the word that we have for it and the understanding. So as soon as you so virginity is something that you can’t directly point towards, let’s say you can’t directly see because the moment that you see it, it’s not virginity anymore. That’s like I. Yeah. That was my favorite bit when when Jordan and Jonathan talked about the Theotokos is that you I think they said it right in the beginning when they started talking about it. You can’t prove it. And if you could prove it, it wouldn’t be the thing anymore because then like it’s because it’s not just the physical thing. It’s it’s also like it’s an attitude and a mental state. And so the way that you’re like virginal is by being virginal towards the outside world, let’s say. And so that’s a mystery that no one is initiated into. And the case of the Theotokos and no one initiated into in like in marriage, except your husband, obviously. And so, yeah, it’s like it’s it’s funny because the mystery is not just something that you can’t see that’s hidden. And you could see if you looked, it’s something that that is part of being itself as mysterious. Totally cool. Yeah, it’s what makes being to some extent is the mystery. And so trying to demystify it is it kills it. It’s isexicited. It’s it’s a mistake. And I like I like I like all those points. That is great. I also I also wrote down that quote there. I like that there are things beyond the scope of language is like, yeah, that’s what we’re missing. There are things beyond the scope of language and the veil, the garments, the thing that reveals the thing that’s otherwise invisible, but doesn’t show it fully. That’s really important because, look, nobody wants to see me naked. I mean, people, right. I won’t. You’ll probably find. And and having that veil makes me better. Right. Like having this lighting set up, which is a pain, by the way, because lighting is almost impossible. Having this sound as good as it is, even though I know it’s still a little echoey, you know, that makes me appear better. Right. And you’re going to. Oh, you’re better than you are. I’m like, you know, I can assure you, I am way more interesting in person. You’d be surprised in ways that would surprise you, too, for sure. Elizabeth is like that, too. You get you get Elizabeth in person. What the heck? You know, it goes to eleven. You know, Elizabeth is like an eleven person. A lot of people you meet them in person is like, they’re not as good as they are online because they’re because they’re they’re acting or whatever. And it’s like if I’m acting when I’m online, I’m muted for sure. Much more interesting in person for better or for worse. But I’m not saying that’s better. It’s better in some ways. And the veil allows us to not have to show our worst side. Right. Or maybe to shield people from maybe not something worse, but something too good for them in the moment. Right. Like maybe maybe people shine too brightly and having them online is all you could handle of them. And Peterson is certainly a person like that. Like, I think if I had gotten to talk to Peterson in person, I probably would have been completely overwhelmed. I talked to him like that kind of person. I talked I talked to him for like three or four minutes. Not not very long. That’s first of all, I’d like to say for everyone who’s been so angry about Adam on Twitter or whatever, that I’m 100 percent convinced that that guy is more genuine and honest than than like 99 percent of people you’ll ever meet. And the thing that I noticed that he does is like whoever he talks to for however long, he gives that person 100 percent of his attention. And it’s like you that’s that’s that’s something to practice. That’s that’s yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I said it on my live stream on Friday, but maybe it bears repeating. There’s bad things and bad people going on in the world. And if you’re worried about let’s just assume it’s an actual transgression on the coach of Dr. Peterson, you’re the problem. I mean that very seriously. And you can be upset for judgment or whatever. You’re the problem. Okay. We got real issues. I don’t care. We got real issues. You could call out real people for doing really bad, like really, really bad things. Peterson’s a good person. Whatever else you may think of him. He’s a good person trying to do good things. There are lots of people who are not good people and they are deliberately trying to do bad things. Let’s focus on them first. Okay. And then maybe never we’ll get to Peterson and his coach because just really scheme of the world. Let’s let’s dial it down a lot like to zero on that. Let’s let there’s plenty of bad people to criticize and to go after and to call out. Let’s call out evil first. I’m a big fan of calling out evil in case anybody didn’t know. Let’s call out evil and it will worry about calling out a good man who may or may not have made a wardrobe mistake, depending upon your ridiculous and probably wrong and absurd assumption about. Yeah, Jonathan. Yeah. Jonathan had a proper breakdown of a breakdown of what was going on there. Just chill out. It’s not. He did a good breakdown. Yeah, no, he did a very good breakdown. I didn’t like that approach. I like my approach better. Why are you even why are you even paying attention to the transgressions of a good man, even if they’re real, even if it was real? I mean, I mean, so I think that it’s necessary to like I think the way that Jonathan says it is like to protect our mysteries, like to keep the things that are holy, holy. I think that’s generally a good thing to try to do. I think that we also need to have some leeway like when it comes to this kind of stuff. When I converted, I did some things in public that were like now looking back at it, that’s at least wrong. But I wasn’t aware of it. And I’m pretty happy that no one like in bad faith called me out and just gave me the time to figure that out myself and then stop. That’s it’s like and that guy isn’t even he didn’t even come to orthodoxy to Sanji is asking to orthodoxy. And so like and he didn’t even he’s not converted to it like either Catholicism or orthodoxy is just someone who’s like really trying to wrestle with the idea of God and to try to come close to him. And I think the worst thing that you can do is then go there and you know, what do you say rain on his parade or something like that? Yeah, yeah. We got artworks like piss Christ out there and nobody’s smashing that with a bat. Right. So what the hell? Because we’ve got the satanic temple putting things in state houses and you’re worried about come on. You got to you need a little relevance realization that a lot of her Vicky term you need to kind of get your priorities straight in the world. Like there’s some bad actors doing bad stuff and Peterson’s not a bad actor and he’s not doing bad stuff. He’s helping people left right and center. Let’s focus on that. Any part any and I mean any I mean the worst stick people five-year-old drawing that is willing to positively associate themselves with Christ is not the problem. Right. For sure. Exactly. What do you want? You want people not to positively associate themselves with Christ because that seems like hiding and it’s gross and it makes me sick and you’re going and you’re not you’re not representing you’re not representing religion or your your religion or religion as such very well. When you’re assaulting somebody who isn’t in your club and saying you’ve transgressed the rules of the club that you’re not in. This is not a really good strategy. This is sort of like the problem of the left in general. I don’t say I don’t subscribe to your rules. So the fact that I’m transgressing means nothing to me. Good luck to you. But yeah I don’t want to I don’t want to harp too much in that there you know there were some some sort of incidents that were I don’t say disappointing but you can go as well as I thought they could have and I did I did want to address that. But but first I did want to mention one of the things that I think it was John of the Mugeo said this trust makes everything out of nothing. I was just like that like obviously right. Oh I’m going to get out my phone and put it right back but I got it out and wrote that one down and I think it was the same talk to he said we’re all serving in one temple or another. And I thought that was like that was just a whopping no like yes we’re all serving in one temple or another. And yes trust makes everything out of nothing. These are very important sorts of concepts that I don’t think we’re sort of accounting for and they do have a depth to them. Right. And that’s sort of the sort of the problem. The other thing that was said was a trade tyranny for depth. Right. Right. And then and then after that Mark Martin Shaw says myth is the wildest deepest way of telling the truth. It’s like yes all of these are true and important. This is all for me about re-enchanting the world for re-inflating things getting off of that flat world getting out of this equality doctrine garbage and back to some things are more important than others. Peterson’s wardrobe not important actual evil really important right. Watching people on YouTube. I’m not quite so important although watch me because why not. Right. Actually going to symbolic world summit and meeting people very important. Right. Like actually being in person with people doing things in community in community tasks if you want to call it some fancy for Vicky words. Right. That’s actually important. Right. And getting out there and and and doing this stuff is is is supremely important. And that’s what I that’s what I found really useful at the summit. The one the one sort of incident that happened. I don’t do you want to go into this. Do you want to go into what’s your what’s your take on this. I don’t know. I don’t know. Do it. All right. Well we’ll we’ll do it again. I kind of I kind of hinted at this in my live stream anyway so I’ll go over it. There was a there was a Q&A. I know it was on the last day. John hers did an excellent job the whole time. He did a really good job. So I’ll just tell the story from my perspective and then Sally can jump in with with her perspective and then Adam can cry about having left early. And then tomorrow we’ll get we’ll get your take. I don’t know how much of this you noticed or where you were even at the time. Whatever. So where there was a question for the big panel at the end and Q&A and I got up and walked to it because I had I had been working on a father exit near needling. You get I point them in this direction and I’m like well you know and I have my look I have an agenda. That’s pretty sure I don’t mean crisis guy. I don’t like the Christian ease. That’s what I like about Peterson. And it wasn’t a lot of Christian easing. It’s not criticizing it for that. But it has to be. I’m not criticizing it for that. But had there been fair enough. Who cares. Excuse me. One second. A Christian ease. Are you talking about my church. Yes. OK. OK. The whole Christian language idea. Right. Peterson’s very good at speaking secular and Jonathan shows pointed this out before he has a way of speaking secular people. Right. That the Christians can’t do for whatever reason. Right. For whatever reason. I don’t want to I don’t want to get into that here. But but yeah. I mean. I came up with a formulation that was sort of dense enough that I could put it into a question and point at something that I actually wanted an answer to. I did not get a chance at any point to ask my question by the way. No no fault of anyone. So I’m not I’m not mad or anything. It just things happen. Not a big deal. So I got up and I walked. I was in the back. I was in the second sitting like row or something. I was walking along. You know it’s a big it’s a big auditorium. Right. And I get passed by this person in a skirt. Now you can object to my characterization. But if you’re not Scottish and it’s not a ceremony it’s not a kilt. OK. You’re not allowed to wear a kilt whenever you feel like it because you want to wear a kilt. I’m sorry. It’s just not a man. It’s sorry. It’s not a manly thing to do. And so he’s running like full speed and he’s a tall guy with long legs. Jets right past me. I’m like that’s kind of what are you doing. Like it’s it’s a crowded auditorium too. It’s not like we had a lot of extra space. There were a lot of people like up against the where the cameras were you know just kind of sitting down with their feet out or whatever which is fine. Who cares. It’s you know why not. And he’s running through and he jumps like two or three people in the line because he ran. And I was like well that’s a little weird. Whatever. You know. And just whatever. I’m just there to ask a question and maybe do some attention pointing at an issue that’s important to me. Right. And I get in line and it’s taking the questions really good at first. But it’s taking a little while and it becomes apparent to John Hirs that we’re only on time for like two or three more questions. And he looked at me because I was the cutoff and I’m like that’s cool dude. And he goes I’ll make it up to you. I’m like I’m going to do it. Don’t worry about that please. Like don’t really. Like don’t worry about that. It’s not a big deal. Not not. It’s not that important. Right. It’s just not the overall scheme of things. Whatever. And I’m like it’s cool. And then he notices a woman behind me. Right. And he and I didn’t see her. She’s behind me. I’m looking forward. And he says oh oh you got cut off in that last Q&A and blah blah blah. And I sense that’s not a big deal. And I’m like I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. He says oh oh you got cut off in that last Q&A and blah blah blah. And I sense. I mean he was pretty pretty hurt by it. And I sense the transgression that happened. So I said to him I said yeah throw one of them out of line and put her in. And he’s like looking at me like wait what. And I get throw him out throw someone out put her in. I don’t know I wasn’t there. I don’t know who this woman is. Like I don’t know there was a transgression but he seemed to think so. I’m like you know take charge. Do the right thing. You’re the you’re the emcee. Like take control. And you know I was like I’m out of here guys. You know I know I’m not going to get my question. It’s fine. You know whatever. And then skirt person does his quote question. And it’s not a question. First of all he goes into his prophetic vision about if the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church were brother biblical brothers which ones would they be. And at first I thought this and then I thought that. And then you know and I’m just like dude this isn’t about your prophetic vision. Let’s just like ask a simple quick question that can be answered. And he was very dramatic. He jumped into the camera. You can see it on the on the videos if you have access to the video and see him jump in. And it’s like what are you doing. Why are you putting spotlight on yourself in that way. And that was that was you know no good. And Q&A is in general. Look Matt you know I get your point. Q&A’s are hard. And Q&A’s have gotten harder right over the years. And actually that’s something that I want to touch on later. And I will because I think it’s germane to the intimacy crisis in general right is why Q&A’s are suddenly a mess. I think it’s all the same problem. So what what what ended up happening was that that woman who had that had been transgressed against got the last question. I think Nate Hile was standing in front of me. He sat down. I don’t know what happened there. I just know he sat down. Good for him. Thank you Nate. Let her have her thing whatever it was. And she ended up on stage. Interesting thing if you watch because I did rewatch this mostly to see Skirt Person and and and her again. They couldn’t quite hear her when she was talking because she was too close to the speaker and she had a bit of an accent and she was a little meek. Right. But once they sort of brought her towards the stage watch Martin Shaw gets out of his chair and then she’s able to sit down. And if you listen closely when she’s up on stage her voice is steady. She’s louder and that’s not audio. That’s her projection because she was more confident because she felt safe and comfortable. Right. She wasn’t a part. She was brought up on the stage. And that was a lovely moment I thought that that wouldn’t have happened. And then Sally now you have to tell your part of Skirt Person and how you felt about that whole thing because I think your message and the way you put forth about will say the lack you know such as it is the conference was wonderful. No criticism. I promise you. Go ahead Sally. Tell us. Tell us how you dealt with Skirt Person. So I was sitting in the row and Martin got up to answer his question and I’m paying attention to stuff because I pay attention to stuff differently to say the best than other people. And I see legs start running across the room and legs. I’ve been watching for a while because reasons and I see him start running and I think to myself oh I should throw a chair at his legs. But then I was like oh that’s probably inappropriate at a conference. And so I see him run past the girl and then Mark and other people and I’m kind of seething pissed already. And I’m not just pissed at him right. I’m pissed at every man who let him do it. Because as soon as he started running you’re done. You’re done. That’s it. Sit down. Go away. Anyway and so then he’s up and he starts into this. And like I swear to God the way I heard it was I heard I’m a prophet. But I guess that wasn’t verbally said. But I was so annoyed with this and I was so annoyed with everyone just sitting for it. I could not just stand there. So I got up and went and had a sit in the restroom and was refreshed as one is. And then as I’m coming back he’s done with his prophetic notions. And I see him once again walking much too fast for the room. And so I stood directly in front of him and made him stop. And I told him he was ignorant and arrogant and he had just passed sick old men and someone should tell him that that’s what it was. And then I went and sat down. But it really I I wish people could see that it would not only be all right but also beneficial to people that are having those kind of discernment struggles because in spite being able to basically tell him off it doesn’t exactly fill me with glee. It’s quite sad. And it’s mostly it’s it’s mostly sad that I would need to because much much earlier in his life people have cheated him many many many times for him to think that was appropriate. And it’s sad for society as a whole because in fact he was beautiful. And just to be disciplined enough to look the way he did is something of merit just by itself just all alone. And it’s tragedy. Right. Well and I want to point out to everybody that Sally is five foot two. This guy was six something. All right. Sally’s a tiny little slip of the thing. And and and yeah she’s the one like I you know I got to excuse myself because I didn’t even see him coming. Like he just flew past me from behind me. And I was what just happened you know. And Adams upset because he’d like think he would have he would have gotten up there and and I hope I would. I hope I would have. OK. All right. I was sitting in Tampa Tampa International Airport like beside some Freemasons or something during all of this having a pretty boring time. I was eating some Haribo. I hope if I were there I’d at least say sit like sit down or ask a question because we had there there were a couple of guys right who fair enough. They were younger guys kind of closer to my age even a little bit older. We’re kind of having a hard time getting their questions out a little bit more introspective. I think to a large extent that’s what’s going to happen. I’ve been to conferences before like that. And sometimes you do get that. But there’s a difference. Here’s your essential feature too. This wasn’t the last Q&A. This was the second to last Q&A. Right. Correct. And because of this and because not taking authority because not pinning this down. The two written questions. Right. Basically is punishing the whole because you’re not insecure enough to punish the singular. And I know that was appropriate. Right. No that that that’s a good point. I remember you. I remember you saying that I want to go through some some quick stuff here and then I want to say I want to say something about this and then and then two more I want to get your opinion afterward. But let me let me just quickly Nancy Nancy is good to see you. I didn’t realize you were going to watch the live stream. It’s lovely. It was lovely to see you again at this other event. It was so hard to watch the Q&A. The skirt person was overly dramatic. Yes. Exactly. And Matt I did want to address this. Nate gave his question to her. Good. Good for Nate. He’s a man. So so he could ask him person later. He wasn’t looking for attention. Exactly. Exactly. Kilt guy Matt. It’s skirt person was surrounded by a lot after the Q&A. And he got the attention he requested. That’s unfortunate. Manuel goes Sally. Excellent. Sally is 100 percent correct. Right. Yes. Adam Adam went to the conference. He did. So I want to I want to just quickly two more. I’m sorry. I just want to I want to quickly frame something and then and then I want to get your opinion on how much of this you saw. Right. And what your opinion is. Before I do that I want to point out a few things. There is a famous psychologist who is very good at most things like like Freud’s got his problems. Young’s got his problems. Right. BF Skinner BF Skinner as a psychologist posited this positive only feedback theory which he then subsequently disproved by trying to make it work about a billion times in a billion different ways a billion different settings with mice and with with all kinds of creatures and with humans and his son tried to get it. It’s called Walden the experiment which is ironic. Don’t get me started on Thoreau and Walden and Walden too was his son. It doesn’t work to give people only positive feedback. OK. If you have two brain cells actually two neurons in your head and you understand anything about the basic principles of this vaunted evolution you guys all yap about you will realize the only important feedback and an evolutionary model is negative positive feedback is totally optional totally optional not required in an evolutionary framework. I happen to believe that evolution is true for the most part. That’s important to know. Society has adopted this idea of positive feedback being more important than negative feedback and the idea that negative feedback is in fact bad. This is exactly backwards. And that’s why Sally’s upset. And I obviously echo echo her sentiment on this. We need to give people negative feedback. They need that. They need to know when they transgress and how badly I’ve said this before. I will say it again. I have many times especially when I was younger backhanded people flat out backhanded them. No warning either because they pissed me off and they needed to know how badly they had transgressed. Years later almost all of these people I’m not making this up have thanked me and said independently I didn’t know how annoying I was being and that really put me in a position where I could think about that. This is important. It is important to explain to people when they are transgressing and how badly so that they can adjust their behavior because without negative feedback you won’t adjust your behavior. That is the end of my soapbox. Two more. What did you think of that whole incident? I’m assuming you were there and saw at least some of it. What was your perspective? You have a different perspective from us for sure. Give me a little bit of leeway because I’m still trying to figure out how I saw the whole thing. My first my initial reaction was annoyance and embarrassment. I have to say that. But I tried to step back from like as it was happening I tried to step back from that because I think that it takes courage to go up and ask questions especially at an event like that especially with people like that that you know maybe you’ve been looking up to or something. And so I tried to on that end especially cut him some slack because I didn’t go up. Like there were things technically that I would have wanted to ask. They were questions that would make more sense to ask like when you’re sitting in a smaller circle but still. But I didn’t. And so I thought OK so he has the courage to ask. And then I don’t think that I fully grasp the thing that he was trying to get at. And the way that I understood it in the end was something and I’m being biased as an orthodox here but was from my perspective as a Catholic there’s probably some things when you’re involved in the symbolic world there’s probably some things that you have to try and reconcile with your tradition and with the tradition that you’re technically getting involved in. And what he was asking like the like the two brothers and the what like the lungs of the of the church of the lungs of Christianity or something like that like to me that doesn’t make too much sense to be honest because from my perspective the Catholic Church is a heretical sect that broke off from the body of Christ like no offense at all. But that’s how we see it. And so it seemed to me that what he was doing there was maybe asking for attention I don’t know but like trying to find a way to reconcile those things and then get approval from the figures that he has been have been listening for such a long time to to well to validate his his attempt at reconciling these things. And I think that it’s not the proper place to do so. I think that’s something that is something that I would do privately. And if I had to have the input of Jonathan or any of the other people there then I try to get to them privately in some sense like maybe like send an email or maybe become a patron and then get one of the like the sessions that you can get with with the speakers where you have like half an hour time to ask them stuff like anything like that to reconcile those things. And so yeah I think that it was just not the proper place to do it. I think you have to also take into account that maybe he is quite I don’t know. It seemed it seemed confused to me. And so he probably is confused in this way of thinking one way or the other. And so obviously the question is going to be confused as well. So I would cut on there as well. But yeah I also think that it’s possible that I’m maybe cutting too much slack here is I have no I have no insight in his personal life. I have no idea what’s going on with that guy. Like there was this other I don’t know if anyone saw this but like a few years back Peter’s net was having a talk and then some guy ran on stage and like broke down on like people were were quick to judge that guy. But that was someone who I think it turned out later like was like having real problems going on. And he just grasped for the straw that was Peter’s net that time. And so it’s possible that that was like a similar situation there as well. And so yeah I like I didn’t enjoy the whole thing. I would have I would have wanted for other people to ask their questions that were actually questions. I also felt like secondhand embarrassment. But the end that that made it hard to watch as well. But that’s a that’s a one of every one of point that’s a personal thing of mine. That’s not an objective assessment of the situation. It was just like I think I think actually you outdid us and we and we’ve been practicing. So thank you for that. Yeah. I think I think you know you nicely framed everything so that the incident with Peterson on stage I was at Liberty University talk. By the way. Thank you memory. Sometimes my memory works. I’m very happy. That was Liberty University. Yeah he was very disturbed. Young man. I think it could have been some of that going on. I think you touched better than Sally did. Sorry Sally on Sally’s point. The wasted potential of somebody who was brave enough to go up who was you know able to to to try and do that. And the wasted potential that society society has wasted by not teaching him how to ask a concise clear question or knowing that he didn’t have one. Like that’s a skill to write like like I said I’m being encouraged. Get up there Mark get up there and I’m like look look I need time to figure out how to frame this in this in this venue. Right. Because I get like yeah if I were sitting with Peugeot for like an hour or two. Yeah there’d be some stuff going I’d be I’d be doing all kinds of stuff. Right. And say I need minimal framing. I get the question quickly. Right. But I’m aware of that. People haven’t been given that skill. And and and and and and that’s a real you know a real problem for me. But I like actually like the way you framed it better. A little upset that Sally and I have been talking about this since it happened. You know I’d like I’d like to I’d like to like one more thing then. I totally agree with Sally. I think that she’s right. And it’s it’s it’s it’s a it’s an aspect that is necessary to to shine light on. I just I personally Marvin mostly don’t feel comfortable at the time to make that kind of judgment because I don’t think I’m in that in that aspect. I don’t think I’m figured out enough to judge that in other people properly. So I’m glad that Sally did it. Here’s the difference. So the Liberty University thing. This thing. We’re sacrificing the center for the fringe and it is responsible. I wouldn’t have let the Liberty University thing happen either. I have a massive different opinion on how that was handled. And this is not because I don’t also have empathy for the person. Like I have no malice to that person. Like I really do have like a sadness about it. But just because you have a sadness, just because you have toxic empathy does not mean you should allow it. It disservice to the whole. And it makes for danger. It really intense danger. And some people should be protected at a cost to people struggling sometimes. It has to be. Yeah, pretty much. I think if this had happened in Ireland, your mind would be made fun of. And I would also make fun of it. And it’s not and it’s not it’s not to push him down. It’s actually just to send the signal. This is inappropriate. And what you’re doing is actually laughable. What are you doing? Right. Do you do not want that response? Then don’t do that again. You know, yeah, that negative that that that negative feedback in a kind way because laughter is a kind way of giving negative feedback instead of backhanding them, which I so prefer. So yeah, and I want to I want to address some of this. Some of this stuff. So Matt said that God means some good productive purpose about the schisms. Yeah, I just grew them on that. The Peterson sphere. And I’m sure that’s what you meant to type that should talk about that. No, that’s all they talk about. And they don’t talk about it, right? They just do it. Schism, schism, schism, schism, schism, schism. Schism. We have 10 more people start up YouTube channels that I can’t watch. That’s a good idea. That’s really helpful. Let’s spread out all the talent so it can’t do anything useful ever. What a wonderful strategy. Haven’t we had enough of that? Like, isn’t isn’t that the problem? I mean, really, at some point, Nancy, but if you are taking the attention of a group of people, you have a responsibility. Nancy, I have a live stream on responsibility. I’m just saying to add add to their experience. I agree. Skirt person was very self self-oriented by calling attention to himself and not on topic. I agree. And to be fair, again, I don’t think he knew. I don’t think he knew. And that’s the problem. When Mark talks, he’s everything but. Okay. Thanks. Thanks. I’m not concise. I gotcha. I’m the most concise speaker you could ever hope to talk to when I want to be. But I’m trying to talk to you people who don’t understand anything about the world. I’m so confused. Why don’t you see these things? Yeah. So I want to talk sort of greater about and somewhat self-serving. If I ever if I ever have the resources, which, boy, I don’t have resources to feed myself, but I ever had the resources, I want to do a cafe. And in the cafe, I want to do YouTube things because I see this, you know, this sort of I don’t want to call it a progression. I don’t want to call it an evolution, but a change, a change towards this formation, right, where we went from Ted talks, which are people blabbing at you about their idiotic mostly. Some of the text are very good, but like tiny number idiotic theses, right, just spewing them out at you. Then we went to the more long form conversational style. Right. And then we went to like the Joe Rogan people talking to other people and that watching sense making watching distributed cognition. And I think the next step in that is to have people join in on the conversation in a healthy way. And part of that would be having a cafe with a stage in the back with people like one remote, maybe two local, whatever. Right. Having a conversation and involving the audience in a Q&A. And some of this is inspired by this guy. You may or may not have heard of Dr. Jordan B. Peterson, and I went to see him in Charlotte a billion years ago. Is that another is that another one of these Canadians? I can’t stem them. Yeah. They’re all Canadians. French Canadians are not Canadians. They’re French Canadians, which is worse than people. God’s chosen people for sure. But yeah, the regular Canadians are good. When I was at Charlotte, what they did was they did. So there’s a huge venue. I forget how many people were there. Four thousand, five thousand, seven thousand. I was a lot. The big stadium. They had an app. And you put your question into the app and someone curated the questions and he answered the top 10. And I was like, somebody curating your question is a good idea. Working with you one on one to say what question do you want to ask and how do you ask it and doing that up front. And I thought, like, man, having a little cafe where you could where you could do that would be kind of cool. Thank you, Nancy. The app is Slido. Yeah, I couldn’t remember the name of top of my head. So I appreciate that. That that I thought was cool. But having somebody do it like work with you one on one so that when you get up to ask your question, you actually know how to ask a question. Now you’re doing what I would call education activities and education. One is called education and training. It’s about a year old. We check it out on navigating patterns. Right. That’s the difference between education and training. Right. Like actually giving you a skill that John Brevigy was is acceptable. Right. That you can use in other places. So this is how to formulate your thoughts. Taking the time. We went into time earlier in this stream. Right. Having a space to formulate your thoughts and gather them and then being able to engage with other people with them instead of just spewing your thoughts willy nilly and like a therapy session. Not a big fan of therapy. A lot of what goes on on the Internet in certain spaces in particular is just therapy. It’s just people blabbing out whatever’s in their head and they’re being, oh, it’s so pretty. I was like, I don’t want to hear about your problems that your father’s better than you or how somebody handled the death of a relative and you’re still obviously struggling with it. I don’t I just don’t care about that because I don’t know you. I don’t know if I know you. It’s a whole different story. If I know you, then let’s have a private conversation about happy to help. It’s viewing it out over the Internet, even with somebody else. I don’t think that’s healthy. I don’t. And it’s not that it’s not healthy for that person. I don’t think it’s healthy for everybody watching. That’s where the problem is. And one of the things I do like about about Pastor Paul Vandu Clay, shout out to Pastor Paul Vandu Clay, my good friend, good friend, Pastor Paul Vandu Clay. The random conversations he has that he doesn’t publish, probably the best thing he does, probably in terms of what he can do without being there. And I think that’s actually super important. That sort of interaction where you do have that because I mean, I hate psychology, actually hate it. First of all, it’s simple and banal. I just find it like too easy to be made into anything important or even named. I’m like, yeah, this is how people are. You see them every day. Get over it. But also, like there is an importance to being able to talk to somebody, in some cases, somebody you don’t know. Right. And tell them things in a way where you don’t feel like you’re being judged by the things they know about you. Like, I think actually there’s a thing there. So I’m not down on that sort of aspect of therapy, if you can think of it that way. But therapy in general, I’m very skeptical of. I like what Catherine Wilson, she put on the Thunder Bay Conference. I like what she said, which is if we had healthy churches and healthy pastors, basically, although I imagine priests too, we wouldn’t need therapists. I agree. Therapy would go away completely. That, by the way, is what she does. So she’s saying like, I want my job to go away because the church is doing their job better. Yeah, OK, I’m all in on that message. That sounds like a good message to me. And I think that’s actually super, you know, super, super important. I do want to go over this and then I’ll jump back into you guys here. Matt C. Martin Shaw said his school is mainly about reprogramming students so they’re not obsessed about being hurt. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a good point, Matt. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that’s really important. You don’t want to get caught up with people who are obsessed with being hurt for themselves. It’s such a weird thing, though, nowadays, because we have on one hand, we have this unbelievable emotional incontinence. Right. Doesn’t matter who said it, but it’s a good term for it. Where it’s like you have to tell everyone everything about yourself and, you know, have the attention centered on you. But on the other hand, and in the same space, funnily enough, we have people being heavily isolated. And so I think that there is a necessity for being hurt or being seen. But it’s something that usually would take place in your own little, you know, in your family and your immediate surroundings. Community. And so, yeah, in your community. Right. And so you’d have you’d have it’s. How do you say it? It’s. I think we need to learn how to listen to people again, and we need to learn how to properly. That’s why I admire Peter’s ability to like he talks to someone for a minute, but he’s like soaking up everything that that person says, at least seemingly so. And so that is something that we need to learn, because it is important to be seen like you. You perish. You perish otherwise. But on the other hand, then like this, I think that this lack is also what causes the the the narcissistic obsession with it, which is as harmful just like on the other extreme, let’s say. Right. Well, I wanted to I wanted to grab this quote. This was Martin Shaw for sure. He said he likes it. He likes things that allow people to reveal themselves without the use of the word I and that just floored me. They get so much. I actually took my phone out and wrote it down. Right. Like I was like, yes, that. And that’s very much what we’re talking about. Right. So if you if you look at skirt person, I had a dream that I had, I had my question. Right. And and yeah, Martin Shaw is not a fan. Right. He wants you to reveal yourself without without using the word I. And I just thought that was like that was that for me was just like nuclear weapon in my head. That sort of stuff. I was like, that’s great. That’s so useful. There’s a very particular kind of emotional botulism that happens when you think about your own state and only state and you don’t get oxygen to your thoughts. And this is about the hello. It’s a nice day. How’s the weather? You have to be having some relationships past that. And if you’re not, then you’re only having relationship with yourself and you don’t know where you’re at. And that’s that’s what I mean by that, because it’s just you’re feeding on your own. It’s about how you’re seeing, because you’re only seeing things from your own perspective and then how you imagine the outside world just builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. But when you make direct contact with another person who sees it differently, they actually have to break down your hallucination about the world. Right. Blastro is going with that. No, that’s fine, Sally. So I’ll just I’ll have to do the shameless plug for the Navigating Patterns channel. I talk a lot about orientation, right? If what you’re trying to do is take, say, a philosophical text, particularly reprehensible, unless it’s Plato or Aristotle or something before that, but anything after is garbage. And yourself, your own experience and navigate the world, you can’t. Technically, navigation doesn’t work that way. You need orientation. You need a third point. You probably need a fourth and a fifth, but you need at least three points to orient and navigate in a three dimensional world, which is the world that we live in. Check out Navigating Patterns webinar already. That’s why I’m hooked on the hallucination word, Mark, because people are trying to use drugs and hallucination to be their third point. Yes. And actually, you just need anybody that’s not you. Exactly. No, that’s a really good point, Sally. I like that. Boy, you’re just full of stuff. I’ve been writing down your quotes left right center today. No, that’s right. They have this, people have this dichotomy right now. I noticed it in that talk I referenced earlier that Manuel made me watch for which I will never forgive him. There was a lot of this chatter about the me, beyond the me. And it’s like you’re referencing yourself twice and yet saying you’re outside of yourself and as a justification for growing or changing or being able to do something so that you’re not possessed or maybe you’re possessed by the thing beyond you that’s really you. This kind of talk is not healthy, right? People very much need something outside of themselves and they know it, but they want to control it. So that’s drugs. That’s right. There’s the materialism. You’re going to take this material. It’s going to give me an experience that I couldn’t have without it, an experience beyond me, outside of myself. Right. And then that’s going to write. And yeah, if you if you I would say probably miss read or at all read Hagel Hagel’s an idiot. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. It’s like a smart idiot. I don’t think he’s an articulate idiot. But the stuff he’s talking about really, you know, come on at a certain point. Right. He gives you that possible. He justifies it. Right. He gives you a way to justify it. And Hagel wasn’t a philosopher. I think if you call the philosophy, probably punch you out. He’s a theologian. Nobody respected philosophers when Hagel was alive. Nobody. And just just to let you know, as they shouldn’t as they should. Right. They had the proper relationship, unlike us to philosophers, which is the actors, philosophers, musicians. I don’t know. I’m warming up to musician. Do more. I’m warming up. Don’t don’t don’t do too much. Don’t do not not too much. I’m looking forward to wishing waves, though. That’s that’s I’m hoping to make that a thing. Yeah. When artists revivify the world, which would be great, or outlast to reclaim the symbolic image, it’s fine when you have people taking theology, reducing it in in scientific language to philosophy. You have a destruction of the world, but you’re flattening things down because I would say theology is the thing that opens things up. Right. It does that reciprocal opening that John Brevecky talks about. Philosophy is actually the polar opposite. The idea of ontology, not ontology as being although everybody equivocates on those words, ontology is categorization. That’s a flattening of the world, guys. A flattening of the world can be useful for certain things. I’m still a big science guy on the real science, not follow the science science, not not not not not some former head of the FDA science, who’s the science like actual scientific method science more more like Thomas Edison, who had a fourth grade education science. You know, do the work, do the work, do the work, do the work, find the thing that has its uses, but it also has its limitations. And the one thing that’s missing in the world and the one thing that I think, you know, you two more and Sally in particular emphasized with with skirt person. We don’t have the negative feedback. We don’t have the sense of limitation. We don’t have the sense of constraint in the world. And that’s causing us to try and do things that we can’t we can’t do. There’s just things you can’t do. You can’t erase gender. It’s not going to work. Like I get it. You can you can carve up your body and do horrible things to it, but it’s not going to work. And it may seem to work for a little while, right? Because we’re compressing time. Look, I did it for 10 seconds and then I got wiped out. It’s not going to work long term. Pretty bigoted of you. I’m surprised you didn’t jump all over this and I thought of it and then I forgot. Now I remembered again. If you didn’t know any of the words in the question, how would you feel about the whole subject from the legs person? Yes, because the transgression actually isn’t necessarily as much the stumbling question and the inability to get to the point or any of that for me. It was all of everything before that. Right. And why doesn’t anybody like why people are very concerned about like the question and the empathy for the question. And even at one point, somebody’s like, oh, it’s a good question. But the thing was, is like, if you’re just looking at the action, like, why is the action less important than the proposition? Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, and that’s very much I talk about that in my tweets on the age of gnosis all the time on my Twitter. I’m dumb. Can you explain that? Excuse me. Can you explain that for the adult male who ran like a five year old across the back and pushed like he didn’t quite push and shove. But it was the adult equivalent of pushing and shoving to get his way. I don’t know what’s asked after that. Right. Right. Right. And I focus on this again on my Twitter. Right. Like, we prefer our our, you know, and so the reason bring that up is because when people are talking about him, they’re talking about what he said in right. And not what he did and not how it came to be. Right. We’re preferring the propositions that were proffered to the observation of what happened. And that’s age of gnosis for me. Right. That would be people would say modernity and say, no, modernity is a garbage word. Don’t use it. I have a video on that. I never getting parents, of course I do. Right. The proper framing is age of gnosis. We’re preferring these propositions to the actual event. Like, it’s one thing to say, I care. It’s another thing to not shoot the person dead. Like, and we’re not we’re not listening. We’re not listening. There’s so many people that do that. They actually kill people. And they’re like, no, I care about people. They murder somebody. It’s like, hey, you you were listening to them. Why did you believe that their actions could have told you more than their words? And you were preferring the words. Peterson really brought this up for me of like what you dress is an intense signal. And I didn’t like it when I first heard it. Right. Because I’m like dress pants averse. I’m definitely formal wear averse. Like, I’m not from that. But after a lot of thinking about it, seeing it in context, the people who are going to act out, the people who are going to be a problem, I would say 80 percent of the time told you and you didn’t hear them because they wore spikes or they wore inappropriate things. And they were disheveled in a way that was unbecoming of the situation. Now, Greg, this isn’t like everybody in jeans and sloppy t-shirt is wrong. Right. But maybe everybody in jeans and sloppy t-shirt at church is wrong. Like this is everybody in a suit is correct. Because I tell you what, somebody in a suit like at a lumber yard, I’m thinking mafia. I’m thinking danger town. Like like like so this is a context thing. But if you’re intentionally, openly and pushing, I’m out of context and I like it. You’re probably going to have to fool. Right. No, it’s good. It’s good, Sally. Yeah, there’s an important signal in the way you dress. There’s an important signal when you carry yourself. There’s an important signal in the intonation in your voice. If those signals don’t match, that’s what we need to pay attention to. That for me is part of part of reclaiming the cosmic image. I thought a lot about what I was going to wear to the symbolic world. And I had a number of ways I could go because like I like a lot of traditional things. I also like being Western. But I decided to dress as though I was going to do business because I’m a married woman. And I was going there without my husband. And in spite the fact I could have looked more traditionally feminine, which maybe I appreciate, I chose not to. I was like, I think business wear makes sense for me in this case, in this situation for my intent, because I am here to do business. And that was really intentional. And like kind of just wanted to wear jeans. Kind of just wanted to wear. I’m in Florida stuff, you know, because I get hot and it’s Florida. But no, I just I decided business where it was the appropriate where to do what I wanted to do. And so you got to ask yourself when you see somebody like there were some people there in very artsy clothes. And I think it was appropriate because they were artists meeting other artists at an artist thing. Made sense. Totally. It went that way. You know, and so the but the amount to where we have people crawling college campuses and down with the man shirts and then people are surprised when they’re burning stuff and hitting people and acting like they don’t care about the rules. It’s like right. That’s ridiculous. You know, well, Emmanuel, if you don’t fit in, you either cannot or don’t want to. Right. And that’s an important signal. And I like Nancy was there. Nancy. Most people did not see him until he got in line. Right. Most people didn’t. Most people didn’t seem until he jumped in front of the camera. Understand that. How can you not see the six foot three men who was in the back? You weren’t ran in the back. I know. I saw him a bunch. But anyway, yeah, yeah, you were you’re more attentive. You’re one of those crazy artist people. So that that makes more sense. But I think, yeah, and I think that’s really important. Like we’re really missing a sense for curation of these people and and this understanding that all of these little pieces, all these little signals together matter. And it sort of goes back to what we’re saying in the beginning. The filter of yeah, the tickets are expensive and the venue is kind of, you know, far away. I mean, it’s not like Sharp and Springs is not near the Tampa airport. It’s 35 or 45 minutes away. This is not like you get off the plane and you can take a subway train or whatever into the venue or the venues at the airport, which, you know, we could have done that any number of cities. You actually had to get to the airport and travel 45 minutes to get to a hotel that was close enough. Sharp and Springs, I did not stay in Sharp and Springs. I stayed down the street. It wasn’t far away. Sharp and Springs is ridiculously expensive to get a hotel. And I don’t mind sharing with Roaches. So I was OK. Adam had no choice. Sally is Sally’s never going to forgive me. That’s OK. But we were there in some sense. We all we were. And I think that’s the right attitude, Sally. Like bring your attitude in your dress. You know, we were bringing this dog headed book, this lovely little dog headed book. And that we have and we haven’t made them yet. We’re going to put them up for sale. I don’t know if we’re going to sell them. Hopefully we can sell them through through the symbolic world press. I know sector at the end or Jonathan, you know, that would be great. Well, it would be nice that we have a bigger version. We have a much bigger version. But we were we were there to represent the Peterson Center. We were there to learn from these people who have a very specific agenda that, you know, again, like I’m adjacent. I’m in there. I read the symbolic world chat on Facebook. I’m in the Facebook group. I keep an eye on these guys. I love Jonathan’s work. I love all those people. I’ve talked to JP Marceau for hours and hours. He’s awesome. I get to meet him in person. I’ve talked to him for hours and hours. I’ve talked to him for hours and hours. I’ve talked to him for hours and hours. I’ve talked to him for hours and hours. He’s awesome. I get to meet him in person. It’s awesome. Thanks, JP. It’s good to see you. I’d love to talk more with him. Never enough time. Never enough time to talk to all the people you want to. But we were there to interact with people. We were there to experience what was going on. We were there to see a healthy, successful structure make the world a better place. And with the idea that we’re trying to reclaim the cosmic image. We’re serious. We know what we’re doing. We’ve got a plan. We’re coming together. We’re using music. We’re getting a bunch of artists. Oh, well, everything’s going to flop. And a bunch of history people together. Right? And we’re going to manifest this stuff. And one of the interactions, too, that I want to hire was meeting Eamon, who is great. I really love meeting Eamon. I hope you see this. We’ve got to talk more about the Virtue Cards and that project. Just meeting these people with these talents that you don’t even know what talents are in the world. You don’t know what people can be good at. I think you have no idea. Right? And meeting these people with these talents that you’ve never even thought of. Right? Or talents that you’ve never considered or whatever. And then really experiencing what they’re like and what they can do. What they can bring to the table. How rich the world is with skills and skill sets that you probably never considered in your life that could be skills or skill sets. That was really rich for me. And I really, everything about conference was just next level. I was blown out. I’m glad that Father Eric was staying later and had the idea that I could drive him around as his chauffeur for a few days. That was really helpful, actually. We went to the beach and got sunburned. It was fantastic. So that whole interaction, even though it was really very overwhelming for me, still recovering, still recovering, guys. That was really important. And having those sorts of experiences, even though there’s sort of high contrast and you need contrast to see, so I’m still a fan, is positive. And it’s positive in a positive direction. And I think we need more of that. I mean, Thunder Bay. I made that a much bigger adventure than it was, which was fantastic for me. I’m sorry you all didn’t get as good an adventure as I did driving out to South Dakota, seeing Sally, getting the initial run of Doghead books and giving them out at the conference. If you can get to do it, this one, whatever, problems, reasons. Those sorts of experiences are important because they, again, reciprocally open, open up your life. And they allow you to enhance the skill of doing the thing that would be required to reclaim the cosmic image. That’s the thing that I focus more on is this poetic, poetic knowledge. 1998, this guy wrote this, 1998. This poetic way of knowing, this poetic way of informing the world that enables you to see the richness, the fullness, the depth of it. And another quote that I wanted to highlight. Awe is the ability to see something larger than yourself. Yes. And I like what John Breveke said years ago. He said, there’s an axis of awe and horror. And so how you see something, right, if you’re opening up to it, you see it as awe. And if you’re closed off or you see it as horror, right, so it’s reciprocally narrowing, it’s horrifying. But if it’s reciprocally opening, it’s awe-inspiring. That’s basically our idea of hell as well. It’s like it’s the love of God. And either you’re open to it and it’s a magnificent experience or you’re not open to it and then it’s burning. So, yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was an interesting comment. And then also I’ve got compulsion without discipline means you have no drive. I believe that was Sally Jo herself who said that. Right. And that was based on Jonathan Peugeot talking about, you know, if you think you want to be an artist, don’t. And then his second piece of advice was also don’t. And his third piece of advice was wait for it, don’t. And then he said if you are compelled and you pick up your pencil every day, then maybe. Right. But expect to be poor. I was like, yes, that is the message that artists need to hear the most is that, you know, it’s suffering all the way down. It’s suffering all the way down. It was so exciting to me. And I think that’s a great point, too, because it’s a group of artists that were very openly. There is bad art. There are bad artists. Because the whole anybody can do it stuff and that it’s all just as good and like skill is not a requirement. Not there. It was not there. That’s for other places where they can do that away from us. And this super exciting. Yeah. Just two more two more quick quick things. I think these are both Sally isms to signing art is the propositional tyranny that John Breveke talks about for art signing art. I thought that was a really good insight and the other good insight. And then I’ll move back to you. Sorry. People rob others of reality by being nice. Obviously, that was you, Sally. Right. And that was around the whole skirt person incident. So, yeah, I just wanted to to to to sort of look like look who joined us. I saw that. I saw that. Hey, yes. Well, and interestingly, I did want to point this out. I haven’t read it yet, but I did read the first page. I read the first page on my discord server twice to various audiences now, because effectively, it’s all the language we’ve been using, all the language we’ve been using for for. Four and a half, five years, whatever it’s been now, same language and never read the book. Still still waiting to read the book. So so yeah, two more. You were going to say something before I interrupt today. I’m sorry. I don’t remember what I don’t feel bad. Yeah, yeah, I mean, maybe one thing I but I but Sally touched on it. So I think the what you what you hear if you look at the Tumblr generation, let’s say maybe that’s more of a moment like I was one of them. I got to admit that the thing that you hear is like if you do bad art and, you know, write bad poetry and all that stuff. And I agree with it. I think that it’s a good thing to do in your like on your own. And like do that by yourself. You can practice things and you can also practice like finding out what you think and how you feel about things. I think that’s a necessary thing to do. But we tend to pair pair that with with the necessity to display it to the world. And I think that’s where the problem comes in. You wouldn’t. You probably would. Neil probably would as well. I have so much music on my computer that I have not released and I will never release because it’s just not good. It’s just oh, I have this idea. And first of all, it sounds shit. Now that I listen to it back and then also nothing ever came of it. And so I hope I hope that is the case for for the majority of people who put stuff out. And I think so as well as most of the things are just not worth presenting to the public. And we have lost maybe our sense for for maybe maybe for shame about those things. Like I’m I’m ashamed of the bad art that I that I did put up because there’s some stuff that I’m not very happy about. So, you know, that’s good. I think that that goes back to sort of what we were saying. Right. In terms of filters. Right. Filtering things out. Judgment. Right. Not being nice about things. Right. People wanting to be heard, even though what that says garbage. I’m sorry. Like most of the things I say is garbage. That’s why I say it on my Discord server where Manuel tells me I’m wrong. It’s fantastic. Manuel is great. He just tells me I’m wrong. Now you guys have to put up with this. You should all pay him money for that service. By the way, very valuable. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, it’s all wrapped up in our inability to judge, which I would say is our lack of poetic knowledge. It’s all wrapped up in our and our unwillingness to judge. Right. People rob others of reality by being nice. So 80 to 90 percent of like visual art stuff is stuff that you should throw away. And this is that there were a couple of successful lessons I got through art school. And one of them was the actual work you’re doing when you’re drawing isn’t the piece you’re working on. It’s your ability to draw the line. It should be what your work is. And then the other one is how to take a critique, how to give a critique. Now, unfortunately, I didn’t keep a critique group out of art school, maybe because of political differences, maybe just because I moved. I don’t know why. But like I continuously and probably indefinitely abused the navigating patterns chat room as my critique group. And there’s a lot of stuff that I put in that people like, what? Who? Why? How? And there’s just no there’s nothing that doesn’t go any further. It goes deeper. And I categorize my work. And so I have a whole section that’s the notepad section, which is what my Twitter is. That’s my like nothing work. That’s my work that like could be developed into something, but I would never put it in a gallery. And this is something that I don’t know if I came up with organizing my work in three categories after I found Jonathan Pagio or it just aligns with it because it’s right. But his organization of explaining where the work goes in the cathedral to having the gargoyles and the grotesques and the wild on the exterior and then having things slightly more holy, slightly more holy, like all the way up to the altar place, massively helped me. Because for one, as Baptist, doing visual arts at all is suspect. And then I’ve always had the desire to draw a certain amount of monsters. And it’s like, why am I doing this? And I’m like, I got to can’t not going to draw monsters sometimes at 2 a.m. Like, it’s just not something that I can’t do. And so then what do you do with it? What do you do with it? I’m like, oh, well, I’ve never had the compulsion to put one behind the pulpit at church. So I’m probably fine. That’s nice. That was just like a huge relief. It’s like, OK, like that’s where I’m putting things. But yeah, you you need to to some extent you have to put your work in front of other people, but you shouldn’t be expecting an applause. In fact, you shouldn’t even want one. You should want them to pick it apart and tear it down and pull out that one piece of good so that you can next time cherish that and plant that again and let it grow into something good. Like, that’s what you should be doing with yourself. Like, you shouldn’t you shouldn’t put it in front of just anybody. No, because maybe if you have bad art of any kind and it resonates with the wrong person, it makes you both worse. Yeah, that’s why I that’s why I like a lot of Nietzsche as a Christian, not not only as a person, because that’s what he did with contemporary Christianity. And I think it’s something that’s very helpful with my music as well. Like, I have people that I can show it to. Sadly, most of them aren’t musicians. So the feedback that I get is limited. But it’s still it’s still helpful. But there’s one like, there’s one very interesting thing. I don’t understand it yet. But I but I know that it happens is that when you have something for yourself that you made, then you your view on it is limited. And as soon as I that’s my experience, as soon as as soon as I have like a demo and I give it to someone, even before I get any feedback, I should have done this. I should have changed this. I should have really recorded that. It’s a it’s very, very interesting how that works. Maybe that’s just insecurity, though. I’m not entirely certain. This is something navigating patterns has massively helped me with. Like, and I mean us as a collective group. I just am imaginatorily filling in the gaps. And so I will draw something and I don’t understand how much it is still just in my head. And so then I will show it to someone who like in context, I feel like I’ve came up with the idea with them. And like this is constantly with males males like, what? How does that mean anything? And I’m just like, oh, OK, so this was just me. And I can start again. And sometimes we can walk it all the way through. But even just like the two figures with the pointing hands, like you would think two figures with pointing hands would be an easy project. Oh, my God. Like how long did that take us? Eight months or a year. I don’t know. But they were imagining a thing. I was imagining a thing. And then I would draw it and they’d be like, no, it’s still wrong. And then dry and they’d be like, no, it’s still and just back and forth and back and forth. And like, yeah, how did that take so long? I don’t know. It’s pretty simple. We had to give up on realism to some extent because we needed angles to be more important than the hands. And then you didn’t even know she should be on a stool. And so that had to happen. No, that was a last minute Sallyism. But that’s what it meant. You just didn’t know that you meant that. So I was right. We end up with the woman on this brick a pedestal at the last minute, never discussed. And then it’s like, how did I miss that? Why didn’t I know that? How did we all miss that? Yeah. And that is it. But it is that healthy feedback. And this sort of goes back to something that I did a talk a while ago with on Pastor Paul Vandu Clay’s channel, right, with Joey and Father Eric. Right. About basically two atheists fighting to clergy. I’m not an atheist. Never was. But one of the comments on that video that I think got deleted was somebody in the therapy sort of arena was saying the big problem that people have is not knowing where they end and other things begin. And that’s what you described. Like how much of what’s in my head is shared with the outside world and how much of what’s in my head is just in my head. And you can’t get that as easily. I’m not saying at all, but as easily from a book or from a video or even from a conversation online. Right. You really need to instantiate it. Draw it. Make it make a song about it. Right. And then get the feedback expecting negative feedback. For me, I actually don’t like praise. I prefer people tell me what I did wrong. That’s much more useful. I’m just a utilitarian in that sense. Tell me what I did wrong so I can make it better. That’s me being a perfection. This is not this is not me being humble. Hopefully I’m humble in other ways. That’s not me being humble. I’m glad it looks like that though. It makes me look better than I am. Hallelujah. But no, this is me being a crazy OCD perfectionist. But we need that feedback and we should want that negative feedback. And we’re living in a world where we again we don’t. This goes back to BF Skinner and Positive Only Feedback and all the stuff we talked about earlier in the stream. I think or at least I did because I tend to do that. You know, all of these things though, you know, it is navigating patterns. That is the YouTube channel. Right. All of these things are patterns or threads that hold together. And that’s actually what I try to exemplify. These patterns, these threads. We need to worry about orientation. We need to understand where the lines and boundaries actually are in the world. And I sort of want to when I kind of highlight that. And Adam, you’ve been quiet for a while. So, you know, around that theme of lines and boundaries and you can you can go with the negative transgressions like like skirt skirt person or whatever. What did you see in the conference around sort of lines and boundaries? I don’t. So with lines and boundaries, I think, I mean, so we were doing the history kind of run, the kind of history talks. And there was and then there’s something about the way Martin Shaw was doing things as well. I mean, you mentioned and it is true and it makes sense that people wouldn’t notice this. But it is necessary to tell a story. The way that I would be familiar with telling a story. And then I think Eddie Lenahan, the guy whose video is this end. I think this is the way his stuff works as well. When there is no necessarily end to the story, there’s there’s no the end and that open endedness rebound rebound. Rebound rebound. Actually allows that kind of story or participating in to kind of not be not not not to be so strictly bounded in time. And I guess in that sense, it’s giving you a lot of space instead. Something like that. Maybe it opens the space, right? A story has a structure. Yeah, it has the bones, right? That it’s following. So that constrains you so that you can sense make through it, right? Sort of have expectations. And also having expectations gives you the opportunity to have expectations subverted. Right. It’s one of those cases where the positive case allows the negative case to be a positive. Right. Because you started. Does it matter where you start? Not just where you’re standing. That’s my one criticism. Jonathan Bichot, he’s given up on where you standing. But where are you starting? Right. You start with an expectation. You can have it subverted. You don’t start with an expectation. You can have it subverted. Why modern movies suck. See Critical Drinkers YouTube channel. That’s one of the many reasons. Right. You’re kind of expecting it to be garbage. When they do something that’s antitropic. Right. It’s like, oh, there’s an old trope about Star Wars. And when they do the opposite, you’re not surprised. Yeah. It’s like, whatever. You know, maybe you don’t know what to expect. And that’s sort of the that’s sort of a problem. Right. Because then the quote trick of subversion doesn’t work anymore. Right. It relies on the opposite in order to exist. Right. And it’s strictly parasitic in some sense. Not that that’s a full negative. But yeah. And so the story has a structure. It has some bounds. But it’s not close. Right. It doesn’t have that ending. Yeah. I know it’s talking to Father Eric. And he said, I like the ending of the Martin Trotter story. I’m like, it didn’t have an ending, dude. He’s like, what? I’m like, what was the ending? And he’s like, I don’t remember. And I’m like, that’s because it didn’t have one. Yeah. Not necessarily a bad thing. But also that happened. Right. It’s important to notice these people get tied up. Like, well, if you tell a good story, this can happen. It’s like, well, you get a lot tied up in telling a lot tied up in good and a lot tied up in stories and a lot tied up in the result. Because I say something, Manuel hears one thing, Sally hears another thing, you hear another thing. Right. There’s nothing wrong with that. I said the same words for all of you at the same time in the same context. Doesn’t work. Sometimes it works. Doesn’t work. That’s why you have the story in a context of a whole room full of people. Right. So there’s that. And then there’s the kind of the universal history aspect, I think, kind of, let’s say, weirdly ties in with the boundaries because in some sense, it’s kind of I think it was Father Eric. I think it was Father Stephen DeYoung’s talk was about choosing your history, which is very, very interesting. There was a kind of point where. Okay. So you had the kind of initial comments of Latin East or pardon me, Greek East, Latin West. And he was saying Latin’s boring. But then he kind of got to this point where you’re saying kind of what Virgil was for Virgil was kind of Roman propaganda. But somebody asked somebody asked in the in the in the questions. How do you how do you go about choosing? Right. And it’s like kind of choosing what story you’re kind of going to be a part of. I really I actually can’t remember what his response was. But just even that question is like I’m not exactly sure that’s something you can do. Strictly speaking, in the sense that like like, you know, I grew up I grew up in Ireland. Right. I’m I grew up with Irish people. I can’t just like become I can’t just plug myself into like, I don’t know, being a Greek. You know what I mean? Or a Buddhist. Right. Or a Hindu or a Tibetan or. Sure. And so it’s kind of. I don’t I don’t know. It’s the kind of there is a kind of weird boundlessness there that was kind of I don’t know. I thought I thought maybe Father Stephen might might push back on that. But I don’t I don’t for whatever reason, I guess he didn’t. I was kind of sitting there thinking that’s a little bit strange. And then there was Deacon. Cotar. Cotar. That was again, that was kind of he was talking about Russian fairy tales. That was that was interesting. I think. I don’t know whether he really touched on. Oh, yeah, actually, no, there was there was something about boundaries in there because it was about the Baba Yaga and people approaching the Baba Yaga. And how how, you know, if you observe the boundaries in the proper way, you could get very widely different results. Yeah, you follow the rules of hospitality. Yes, it doesn’t eat you even though Baba Yaga is trying to eat you and says, like, I’m going to eat you. And you’re like, no, I’m following the rules. You can’t eat. And so there’s a horrible monster. But when you follow the rules, the horrible monster doesn’t eat. And and and this goes back to, you know, I think what you were touching on is submission. You are born into a place at a time. You can take the Sam Harris. I had no choice in that. Maybe you didn’t. I don’t know. I don’t know how you determine that, by the way. It’s a silly question. Right. But you are submitted to that. And you can’t just decide I’m going to be Buddhist now. Like that just isn’t an option that is available to you. Almost certainly, maybe one in a billion people. You’re not that person, by the way. So don’t don’t waste your time. All right. If you were the Buddha, you’d know. Don’t worry about it. You wouldn’t have to question it. If you’re a question, you’re not the Buddha. Not that. Yeah, that’s what that’s what the East would say, by the way. So just just like proper Buddhism, not Western Buddhism that we all know and unfortunately love, even though we’re wrong about how the East thinks about it, that you’re submitted to that. And and sort of the best talk in the whole thing was that talk on sacrifice. And I know in our little section of the Buddhism sphere, we all cheered sacrifice. Yes. And my only critique, such as it is, is that the secularists are not going to like the word sacrifice one little bit, because that’s too Christian. Right. I think trade off is a better video on that and navigating patterns. Of course, I do. Trade off is probably a better way to start talking about it with people in the meeting crisis or people who are not able to just go to church as Jonathan showed excellently and should continue to say. Right. Those people trade off is probably a better way. But the idea that they’re talking about sacrifice was great. I thought that was fantastic. I think that probably, Janet, if you heard earlier, no, that’s destroying mercy is destroying the world. And so the idea of sacrifice, mercy, empathy, this whole frame is garbage. It’s just how we got here. More of it. Here’s the problem. What people are turning nice. Is actually emotional comfort. Right. And the niceness is subverting kindness, because when people are catering to other people’s emotional comfort instead of their overall welfare, that’s what’s wrecking everything. Right. Well, and Sal, you sort of you touched on it and we’ll just we’ll use the example. Right. We’ll use the example. So when we when we were when we were talking about this image and how to build this image and I think it was two years actually, it took us to draw this simple thing. It’s ridiculous. So amazing. And it came out better than it was in my head. So like that’s all. That’s a miracle. As far as I’m concerned. Having the negative constant negative feedback from Manuel and Mark about, no, what are you doing? Why don’t you understand pointing? Why can’t know that just the arm needs to know the two arms need to join the other arms. What I think that was helpful. Like it was contentious. And at times, maybe people rage quit. Maybe me. Maybe Manuel. Certainly Sally. But but what emerged for me, like what emerged is so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. It’s so amazing. It’s so deeply symbolic. You know, maybe maybe more for me or us than other people. It was worth all the hassle. It was worth the fight. It was worth the battle because it was a battle. All of that. Now, somebody who is more skilled than me could do it better. That’s the thing. If you stick with it, like because that’s not its ultimate form, it could be done better. Heck, I could maybe do it better now. Now that I understand what we’re talking about. But that initial hardship of pulling that concept out of your guys’ head and putting it visually, it’s not a loss. Even if it’s not in a perfect form is my point. It’s not a loss, even if it’s in an imperfect form to go through struggle and suffering to figure something out. And if you’re worried about niceness, man, if we were. Oh, my God. Imagine a world where we tried to force Manuel to be nice and polite the whole time. Did he give me feedback on a drawing that would not be useful? That would be so inefficient. Your drawings would suck. Your drawings would suck. Yeah, that would not be helpful. Like, I don’t want that. Like, I don’t want like that. Oh, it’s wonderful. You should. Oh, my gosh. Put it on Etsy. No, that’s the right place for that. I’d like to touch on the mercy of a sacrifice, but for a second, I think that it’s I mean, that’s probably obvious. But it is something that has to be that has to be in a in a relay done in a relationship, let’s say, because what what we want from speaking from a Christian perspective, excluding all the atheists now, what we want is we want the mercy from from Christ and we need it. And I mean, he’s going to give it to us. That’s that’s that’s a comforting thing about him. And on the other hand, what we need to do is sacrifice. And I don’t think that trade off fits it because I mean, you can you can try to make the point that in the end, that’s what’s happening because you are sacrificing something. And we expect like the big thing we expect to enter the kingdom afterwards. But in my experience, when I try to sacrifice as a trade off, when I’m like, OK, I’m going to do this and I’ll get this, then it doesn’t work. But the moments that and there are few I’m working on that. But there are few the moments that I actually managed to to sacrifice something like for a second. Those are the ones that are transforming and those are the ones that actually have an effect on like a positive form. And so it’s it’s something that can only be done in a person to Christ relationship and maybe then on the lower levels on a person to person relationship. Because, you know, you have someone around you and you try to figure out how to how to how to have a relationship with that person. And and so you’re going to have to make compromises. And that’s technically that’s technically a trade off. But it’s it’s it’s it doesn’t work like that, because if I go to someone and I’m like, OK, I’m going to do this thing for you and then you have to do this for me. Right. Right. Yeah. I don’t I don’t disagree. But my point and I think Father X finally come around to this. He told me about this recently. Small steps, baby. Small steps. Get them to understand trade off first trade off works two ways. The way you’re talking about you get but trade off also works for if you and this is the way Peterson does trade off right without using using the term trade off. He says, what do you have to do to get what do you have to give up to get what you want? Yes. What is it that you’re not doing playing video games to be at the symbolic World Summit? Well, I have to not play video games for three months to have enough money to go. Sure. And I did I did want to. So for me, it’s small steps. I think that the problem with secular thinking as opposed to symbolic thinking is secularists. They just have tiny, tiny, tiny tools. They can only do little steps. Technically, I’m not not using that derisively. I’m just saying they just have small tools that are very limited and they need to be stepped through these things in very small steps compared to people who have had experience. You know, with with with these with these sort of larger, larger steps. And I think that’s that’s super important. And I want to do one thing, Adam, and then we’ll and then we’ll get to you. I just wanted to highlight Nancy. Nice is also about immediate comfort above all else. And I think that that that was sort of part of the problem. So, no, Adam, you have to go. So and I do want to wrap this up anyway, because it is getting late. I got a dinner at some point and then Father Ernie’s got his dream and et cetera, et cetera. But give us your closing thoughts, at least Adam, and and and tell us tell us, you know, give us give us your little wrap up. OK, yeah, I mean, all in all, the conference was great, both as an opportunity to kind of meet new people, you know, meet you guys in person. And the America met in person before. Meet Sally, meet Father Eric. The talks, particularly the universal history, is something I’ll be thinking on probably for the next couple of months, to be honest. I’m very happy that they have it accessible on live stream because there’s bits which I wasn’t taking notes. So I was just kind of there. So I have more impressions that don’t have words associated with them rather than kind of having the impressions and the words although all the way down. One thing I wanted to do, which I didn’t get to do, was ask Richard Rowland about the kind of difference between the Far East and the Far West. And that’s something I want to explore. I probably will be exploring because I’ll be going to something like the Far East next in the coming in the coming April. Yeah, I think niceness will not save the world. People should not be nice. I’m speaking as an Irishman. The best thing that could ever happen to me as a young guy in Ireland is really just the kind of the negative feedback. It’s the negative feedback in the way that is actually kind of positive. It’s in the sense that you actually grow from it, that that’s necessary. And that if you kind of abdicate leadership, you can’t you cannot demarcate boundaries and then nobody knows what’s going on and nobody knows how to navigate. So I can’t tie that into history, but at the moment, but I’ll get there eventually. So thank you. I’ll head off here anyways because I got to get ready for work tomorrow. Thank you. Have a great night. Yeah, I do think I do think we want to wrap it up. Two more. Why don’t you why don’t you go next with a with sort of your wrap up thoughts and you know you throw anything in there that you want. And and and and I do and you want to really thank you. I’m so glad that you are interested in doing this. I really value like your perspective is excellent not only because you’re a volunteer and a musician, but but also because you know because you’re you know you’re really a good person. You’ve been involved. You’re sort of like in that you know in that symbolic world in a way that unfortunately we’re not. Would you know it’s good like we should not be doing the same thing. So I do want to I do want to preface that I was just absolutely thrilled that you were you were so so willing to join us. I do really appreciate that. But please give us give us your wrap up. Wrap up of the conversation of the the the the conference in general, I think or anything. I think or anything you want. Like it’s it’s fine. I’ll do Sally then I’ll do me and we’ll and we’ll shut it all down. But yeah, whatever you want. Sure. Well, I’ll try to I’ll try to like maybe on the conversation and then I’ll do on the summit. The we kind of we can we kind of we kind of lost track of the summit I think, which was fun because we got into so much interesting stuff. I think there’s there’s a bunch of other conversations to be had probably going from this. So like we’re we’ve been going for three hours now. I think we could have done probably another six technically like there’s some stuff about Nietzsche, for example, that would have been interesting to get into. And yeah, like what Tom Tom said, trade off is not what it feels like. That’s that’s exactly it. Like the moment when you try when you hold on to it, it’s not a sacrifice. And so that’s I think that shows probably also in Christ on the cross when he says like, Father, why have you have you forsaken me? Something like that is like this total loss of holding on to life and holding on to maybe something like hope, because otherwise it doesn’t help. Otherwise, you’re not really letting it go. And otherwise, then you can’t die so that you you also can, you know, rise from the ashes if you want to put it that way to firebird like. Yeah, so so I think that’s yeah, it’s an acceptance of loss. Yeah, that’s and that’s really hard to do, especially when you keep in mind all the time that it’s yeah, but I could maybe this could happen. Maybe this could sometimes when we when we let things go, they come back to us. But sometimes they don’t. So it’s yeah, it’s it’s it’s weird. It’s a weird experience really. Yeah, but that was like the whole conversation was a lot of fun. I’m yeah, I’d love to do it again. So whenever you have something like this and you want to help me on just just hit me up. That’s I’m down. Okay. I always I love I love attention. So I love to talk to people about this stuff. It’s really fun. And then on the summit, I’ve been I’ve been like, I’m not going to lie. I was especially on the day I was very much teary eyed. And that’s an understatement like the the whole thing. I’m like I’m like I’m like a little child when it comes to that, because people were coming up to me and I’m not saying that to break. Like I’m being real honest. People were coming up to me and telling me, oh, I love your music. And I was I was genuinely surprised about that. And I was beyond happy. That was it’s like I started making music when I was 13 and I had the the the the common like the dreams that you have when you’re when you’re at that age. And that’s that’s kind of a dream come true, but a lot better than I could have had could have imagined at any point. So that was that was crazy. I got to meet all the people that had such a big effect on my life. Like in a positive way. That was that was very touching. And then having Jonathan thank me in front of the people with the other guys as well. That was that was crazy. So so that was like to make it about me, me, me, me, me. That was my that was my personal take. Like what I took away from that. And then in and in general, I just I just really hope we can do that again. I hope like Jonathan was kind of bummed out at the end, I think, because it was so stressful to do the thing. But I think it’s very important that we collectively bully him into making this again sometime because it’s very important, as they said when they were on stage, as they said, is that it’s one thing to sit in front of the screen and like, oh, have you seen this symbolism thing? Have you seen this discussion? Oh, yeah, that’s so. But it’s a whole different thing to meet with people and then make these kind of connections, which at this point is kind of cliche to say. But yeah, that was that was like I still can’t believe it happened. That’s that’s my recap. Oh, great. Great. Thanks, Sally. Sally, what do you want to end? Oh, I just real quick. Absolutely. We’ll we’ll do more of these conversations if people want to. I’ll host them on here and on the TV or whatever. So don’t worry about that, Sally. Go ahead with your with your wrap up. So I this into real life because I think that’s what the idea of the summit was to in our day to day in this world of these different types of domicide were lost in distractions. Because we’re not finding traction in our immediate life. And the summit was this little window into what things can be like if you’re famous within your five miles, because we kind of took our little Internet world because it’s not a big space. 700 people in the entirety of the world. That’s not a big face, but it was kind of like pulling in our five miles and seeing what life could be like. And I think I really like that idea of being what you could be within your five miles and bolstering the strength of this kind of thing into your day to day, even if that’s cleaning your table and having your home in order so that if your Internet friends can visit you, you have a place for them. And maybe that’s once every five years. But if that’s your five miles, that’s your five miles. And I think this offered us an opportunity to see how we could be part of a good day to day life for the people who have made our good day to day lives better. And I think one of the peak achievements of this conference was that first night that Peterson could be there in jeans and sit in a row unharassed and listen to his friend and some music without people making that impossible for him. And I’m very happy to be part of a group of people that could make a what three hours of someone who have given us so many hours possible. No, I like that. Yeah, the Be Famous Within Five Miles Dr. Martin Shaw. That was another I don’t know how that didn’t make it my list. It’s in there now. Yeah. And one thing I think I think actually, Sally, you were talking about this. We do not build stone buildings. So we live out of suitcases. And that goes back again to John Vervicki’s domicile. Big Vervicki guy. I have many criticisms of his work, probably because I know it so well. That’s the domicile. We’re living out of suitcases. We’re living online. We’re living in video games. And these are not permanent buildings. They’re not permanent structures. They’re not things that will last for ages. Well, Vesper Stamps brought up that if you cease to build cathedrals in space, then you build them in time. And I think the Symbolic World Summit very successfully took all of this magnificent stonework and architecture and grace that we’ve been spreading out and put it in time for a minute. And I think we can see examples of how to do that. I think Thunder Bay was like that. And I think I think we’re having a real it’s a good it’s a good thing. And it’s not trivial, even if it’s once every so many years. Right. No, no. And and and and I, you know, I’m sure I’ve done this before. I’ll do it publicly. I do want to thank you for when I went out to Thunder Bay. You had a place for me to stay to visit to visit your Internet friend to come and visit. That’s the first time we met when we went over the dog headed books, which you had already prepared. This time I brought the prepared dog headed books. So, so, yes. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for that wrap up, Sally. I did want to address Nancy. I’m hoping that Jonathan Bejeot delegates more organizational stuff to Richard. Yeah, it sounds like that’s what’s going to happen. Also, Martin Shaw may be interested in another. It could be more of an anchor. Right. So people don’t don’t have to do so much. Yeah, I think that’s part of it. A lot of people are trying to do their own thing. And that’s just too much for any one person to do. And Tom Tom, the symbolic world folks are excellently well behaved. Yeah, they they they really were, especially in the beginning. Peregrine, thanks. You brought it home to us. I hope so. So for my wrap up again, two more. Thank you. We will. We’ll do more of these. You want to do more of these. I love talking to you. I love having you on. I’d love to dive into you with your knowledge of Christianity and Nietzsche and things like that, because we haven’t chatted, unfortunately, nearly enough. So so that would be fun. Maybe we can drag Manuel or somebody a few other people in. Right. Just have a richer, richer discussion or if you just want to do you and I that that’s fine, too. I do that with Adam. So whatever, whatever we can do. Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. This conference was just an example of something for me that comes from the Peterson sphere. Peterson sphere dot com. We’re working on that website. It’s up. You can you can visit the timeline. Something that came out of the Peterson phenomena. Right. However, you want to frame that that is lasting and has lasted and is a thing that you can point to symbolic world. OK, they’ve got a website. They’ve got a Facebook group. They’ve got a summit under their belt. Right. They’ve got a they’ve got a they’ve got a band. Right. They’ve got your music. Right. Right. So there’s a lot of stuff that’s going on. Right. So there’s a lot of stuff that’s happening. It’s coalescing. It’s forming within the sphere of Peterson’s influence. Right. And as a direct result, I would say of his rise, if you want to put it that way. And this is a great example of how that should work and how what it looks like when it’s healthy and how it enhances the lives of the people who participate. Partially because they’re able to participate in person in any event in an event that just not anybody can walk in off the street and disrupt. Even though to our point, we did have some minor disruptions, which is no fault of the of the organizers. And so I thought that was that was really the curiosity for me as an online community builder and someone who built a community for a while around John Vervecki’s work until the snakes got it. Right. That to see that work and to see it expand beyond, say, the online community aspect, which I which I’ve experienced before, but not not recently. It’s been a few years since I saw anything sort of expand from online to sort of real life or meet space, wherever you want to frame it. That to me was what this represented was that we can call it an emergence. Right. It emerges from the emanation of Peterson talking about these issues. I’m going to have an article up on the Peterson Sphere website about this. Right. Peterson’s is lightning rod for these things. And then all this stuff, if properly oriented, can hold together and actually manifest in the world and create great relationships. I’m hoping Eamon, I hate to mention again, I’m hoping we can work with him because he’s got some skills. He’s going to help us with the virtual cards and gaming, hopefully, to to, you know, help Sally’s art, right, help people in the meaning crisis, maybe a few crisis of faith people, right. People lost their Christianity or whatever help people in general, hopefully, who are lost, hopefully like a skirt person, right. To be better, because that’s really for me. That’s what it’s all about. Right. At the end of the day, that’s what we want. And look, I’m going to put up on the description. I didn’t do it because it’s just I’ve been super busy and forgot to do a bunch of things. I don’t race around today. I’m going to put up in the description any links to any of the stuff we’ve talked about. Maybe I’ll find that Liberty University talk. But two more. Look, you, you know, you’re you’re you’re very modest. Please, whatever you want to say at the end here, and I will let you end it out in this case, and then I’ll thank everybody. Whatever you want to add, but also please tell us where can we get more of your work? Because your work is really good and important. And it’s part of this Peterson’s sphere phenomena. So tell us about that and anything else. Okay, so I have nothing that’s very new that I could plug except the latest song that I put out with Jordan and Matt here and my friend, Kara Nordrick, who did some background vocals on that as well. Really beautiful. Which is it’s called Adam solve that it’s from Matthew is and Jordan’s talk from like, I think maybe two years ago now, where they talk about what actually was the sin of Eve. What was the problem, which is like, spoiler, it was giving him a riddle that he can’t solve. Which is which is then explained in the song. Like, I worked on that for a year. It’s it’s worth listening to one of the songs that I’m particularly proud of. Other than that, I have one thing coming up, but it’s going to take some time till I’m done with it because I’m gaining now access to the audio recordings of the summit. And so I’m going to try and put that together as an album. That would be really cool. I’ll hope I can incorporate some of the other artists that were there as well not going to say more. And yeah, that’s that’s what I’m working on. If you want to be excited for that, but it’s going to take a while till it’s done. And the you can you you can find me anywhere. I think that you find me on YouTube under is that weird. That’s like the the label that I’m publishing under. And you can find me on Spotify and all the other like streaming services under two movies, as you can see written, I think down here. That’s that’s I highly I highly appreciate it if you stream my stuff. If you buy my stuff, it’s always helpful. I’m a poor student, so I can use the money. I’m not going to lie. And yeah, the thing that I’d like to. So two things, we kind of did that. Listen to Dirk Paul Robbins album Firebird when I was flying home, like across the Atlantic, I listened to it 10 times in a row. I’m not lying. I did that nonstop. It’s such a great album. It’s it’s amazing. It’s it’s an amazing record, really. And the thing about the summit that I’d like to focus attention on just for a second is the the the very end of of the last bit that Jonathan had. If you listen to the watch the recordings of it is when he thanks his wife. Because I think that’s a very and that ties into what you just said. It’s a it’s it’s showcases what the whole thing is about, because it’s nice to talk about these lofty ideas. And I’m very guilty of focusing on that too much, because it’s fun. And it’s a place where you can be very, it’s a protected place where you also can just, you know, let yourself go thinking about high ideas and all that stuff. But what it really comes down to is like the human to you. It’s almost cliche to say that. But what it really comes down to is the human to human relationship. And that’s why we want to go to church, in a sense, it’s a person to person relationship. That’s why we want to be involved and live in the in the in the symbolic world. That’s why we want to escape, let’s say, from the modern world where we are all zombies, trying to consume each other instead of, you know, engaging with another person. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I did knew. I already got three new songs. I’m working on more. It’s, it’s gonna be fun. So yeah, I think that’s because that was also what touched me the most in the end. So I think that is what it’s about. That’s what we what we have to move towards. Some of us are already there. Some of us are still moving towards it. It’s yeah, I was and I still am at a loss for words about the whole thing. Great, great. Yeah, look, I did. I’m going to add one one quick little thing. There was a Q&A that Jonathan Michaud did. He doesn’t remember about three, three or four years ago on the awakening server. And I have to paraphrase it because, you know, it’s a little bit long, but he basically said, well, you know, one of the reasons you go to church is because you’re doing something that sometimes on any given day you don’t want to do right to be with people you don’t want to be with. Maybe maybe only some of them, maybe all of them. Right. And learning that skill is what we’re missing in society. For real, the ability to do something we don’t want to do right the skill of doing something we don’t want to do with people we don’t want to do it with to make the world a better place. And look, thank you everybody for watching. I’m really impressed with the engagement. I hope those streaming our numbers are real. My last two streams have been blowing up apparently on Twitter, I hope. So this is wonderful for everybody watching. I really appreciate the engagement. I hope to do more of this. If you want to see more of this, like and subscribe on navigating patterns. And we’ll you know, we’ll try to do more. And I really appreciate everyone’s engagement. And I do want to thank the organizers of the conference, Neil DeGrade and Jonathan Bejeot, everybody who was involved, all the volunteers like yourself. Thank you very much. It was really nice. It was good. I mean, you guys are doing the work that nobody wants to do. I wouldn’t do that work. That’s for sure. There’s certain things I’ll do, but not that. That’s true. I couldn’t I couldn’t have been there if it weren’t for my mate Paul who paid again who paid for the flights and the Airbnb and all the other stuff. And then for Neil who got me the volunteer place. I couldn’t have been there otherwise. So I’m eternally grateful. It’s amazing. No, no, that’s that is wonderful. I’m so I’m so happy that you were able to go and that you get to be a volunteer and stuff. Because yeah, I know I know how expensive it was. I don’t because it didn’t pay for it. You got a nice BNB. I got a I got a road to my hotel, which I’m not sad about at all. But yeah, it’s but it was a wonderful experience. And thanks to everybody who made it happen and made and made two more V’s and other people able to go who might not have been able to and who set the boundaries and made the right exceptions so that the right people got in and got the right experience out of it. And hopefully we spread that to sort of everybody else. And look, thanks everybody for the work that you’ve done. And I think that’s the thing that I value the most, which is your time and attention.