https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=j92Dgix8-dw
All right, here we go. So hello everybody. Always a joy to see people in the chat already. Well, it looks like the conversation has been going on for a little while already in the chat. So yeah, so got a few announcements to make before we start on the question period. Biggest announcement, I guess, is that as you know, oh, symbolic memes is there. If you guys have not seen the memes that this channel has been putting out, it’s hilarious. Very, very funny memes. Very funny memes. So check it out. It’s some pretty funny stuff. So today, Jordan Peterson put up the discussion that I had with him on audio, and then tomorrow he will also put up the video part of the video version of the discussion. And so I’m pretty happy until now. The reactions that I’ve gotten from people are kind of what I was hoping. The discussion is quite touching and surprising. Jordan just doesn’t hold back. Like he just goes all out in terms of talking about difficulties that he’s going through, the questions that he has. And so I was really happy about that discussion. I would say that the discussion that’s going up with Jordan, it’s pretty much, if I could have had any discussion with Jordan Peterson in public, this was the discussion that we had. We went over several things we talked about in private, but then we even explored some new territories. So I’m pretty happy about it. And I think that, and I mean, we’ll see. We’ll see what happens. But I feel like it’s going to have a positive impact on people. So I’m pretty happy. So if you want to listen to it already, you can check it out on his audio podcast. And if not, you can wait tomorrow to watch the video version. So yeah, so that’s going on right now. Okay, so last month, I’ll say, so one of the things I’m trying to do right now is there are a lot of stuff happening. I’m having the whole website redone and let’s say also kind of working with a marketing company to look at strategies. to kind of present my message the best way I can. One of the issues I’ve had is that I’m all over the place. I’m an artist. I’m doing this graphic novel project. I’m doing these videos, a podcast. There is now a blog on the website. And I also started a new podcast with JP Marceau. You might have seen him on my channel a few times. He also has his own Facebook channel. JP is the editor for the Symbolic World blog. We’ve decided to start a French podcast. And so we’re hoping once a month, maybe more, who knows, we’ll see. But we’re going to put up some French content, going over a lot of the English content that I’ve been doing for years and maybe doing it in a more systematic fashion. JP is a more systematic person in general. I just kind of make videos and go from idea to idea. And hopefully you guys can gather some kind of pattern in what I’m doing. So yeah, so that’s going on. So one of the things that I’m trying to do is because of YouTube’s pressure, let’s say, because of the massive pressure we felt in social media in the past few months, I mean in the past two years, but it’s accelerated, of course, in the past few months as well, is I’m really trying to focus on the website so that if ever my YouTube channel goes down, then we’ll have an email list. We’ll have another platform that we can use. We can put up the videos on BitChute. They’re already going up on BitChute, but if YouTube goes down, then we can promote those videos. So what I want from people, I’m hoping from people, is that they go to the website and subscribe to the website. There’s a down at the bottom of the website, there’s a subscribe field and you can subscribe there for free and you will be getting notifications by email of any new content that is coming out on the symbolic world. So I’m really trying to focus that. In order to do that, I did a raffle this month and I’m going to do another one this month as well. And so for all the patrons that are supporting me financially, you get like two chances in the raffle and then for the people who are subscribed, just subscribe, you get one chance. So I don’t know, I didn’t even look at who was who, but the names of the two people that The first one is a sweater that is the image of everything sweater, black sweater. And that one was won by someone named Adam White. And then the second was a St. Michael tote bag. And that was won by someone named Charles Streetsill. So both of you guys, I will send you an email in the next few days and you’ll probably get it this month. All right. And so this month I’m doing it again. So please sign up to the website. This is why I’m doing this. So that if the apocalypse happens, we’ll have more time to continue the symbolic world discussion. So all right. So I’m going to have two chances again. Like I said, two things. One is going to be a nice light gray seven days, six days of creation t-shirt. And the second one is also a t-shirt is a black Griffin t-shirt. So sign up this month and next month I will do another raffle and I’ll do this for a few months because I really want people to sign up. All right. So that is that is the announcements for now. All right. So I’m happy to see Brad and Lisa are there and I see Neil deGrade is there. Dirk Paul Robbins. You guys check out the conversation I had with him. He’s been really involved in symbolic world discussion and his last album has all these really fascinating prophetic sayings that just came true. So you know, when we say symbolism happens, there’s some people that can even, you know, intuit this, the patterns and and somehow predict the future. So all right, here we go. So I’m going to start on the symbolic world website and I’m feeling kind of spry tonight. So hopefully I’ll have an energy level that’s up that’s up that’s up all the time here. OK, so here we go. Let me make sure that I’ve got all the comments up because I don’t want to forget anything. All right, here we go. All right. Before before that, there was one last thing I wanted to show you guys because because Teespring sent me this really cool like Watch the Fool’s water bottle. So I’ll be drinking from my Watch the Fool’s water bottle. And someone noticed and pointed out that the great thing about having it on a water bottle is that every time you drink, you’re actually turning the fool and the king. So on the design, this design, I put like some are the king on top and some are the fool on top turning. So just having fun with that stuff. It’s a lot of fun. OK, here we go. So Symbolic World website Tan Moosman asks, What is the relation between sacred liturgical language from other languages? What makes some languages holy and others not? What’s the key differentiating principle other than tradition perhaps? Um, well, I would say that there’s something about ancient languages that really does make them particular. Like if you look, for example, at the difference between the Hebrew, let’s say, and Greek and Latin, Hebrew has an idiom. There’s the Hebrew letters are idioms and there are even actually hieroglyphs, hieroglyphs originally. And so each Hebrew letter is visually represents something. And so the letters also have numerical value. And so there’s an idea, let’s say, in kind of Jewish and Hebrew, Hebrewic language that the actual constitution of the words are meaningful. That is, that there’s something about how the letters are brought together that because each letter actually has a meaning, it’s not just an arbitrary signifier, which is pointing to a sound, then there’s actually other meanings that can be held together by word and that words, the constitution of the words themselves are part of their meaning. And so there are languages like that, like, for example, Chinese and there are other languages like that where the relationship, the fullness of meaning, which can be contained in the words related to numbers and related to a kind of poetic reality within the word itself, you know, is something that is absent from languages that are purely frenetic. And so Greek and Latin use a Semitic alphabet, but they kind of took a Semitic alphabet after they lost their own writing. So you can imagine maybe their own writing before had a more kind of idiomatic or, you know, poetic structure within the very words, whereas now it’s just this kind of arbitrary signifying. But one of the things that phonetic languages do is that they offer more power. And so because of this kind of, because of the phonetic structure, it offers more possibilities in terms of how those languages can expand. And so it makes sense that, for example, a language like Greek would be and Latin would have been used for Christianity because Christianity was meant in a way to kind of fill up the world and kind of go to the edge of the world. And so there seems that there’s to me, at least as a relationship from the movement from Hebrew into Greek and Latin, then into the role, the Roman languages, you know, the romantic languages and all these other languages, that there’s this kind of movement from this extremely highly qualitative thing and then moving out into filling up the world. While I think keeping and preserving the, or containing the deeper meaning there in there as well. But it’s probably very good to know Hebrew. I think that’s one of the advantages that moderns, us moderns have is that we have more access to Hebrew than did the ancients. So the Old Testament. But I mean, I know people are going to knock me because a lot of people are really, really attached to the Septuagint. And I think the Septuagint is amazing. And I think that it has a very important part to play. But nonetheless, I think that there’s something about the very ancient languages, which is very highly qualitative in what they can contain within their structure. So hopefully that answers that. So Nomad in Socks asks, would you mind getting over the macro vision of what the symbolic worldview does for individuals and groups who use it? I’ve been trying to sort of map your philosophy as a whole. We’d love if you could try to string it all together from top to bottom. And so, so one of the things that having a symbolic worldview does is, you know, at least now, the thing is that in an ancient world, you really didn’t need to have an explicit symbolic worldview. It was kind of like the water you bathed in. And I’ve often said that there’s a trade off that I’m doing. And we have to understand the price of that trade off, which is that as the symbol, as we reach the edge of the symbolic world, as we get into the margin of that very pattern, it is as the clown world and all this upside down stuff and all the marginal identities start to scream loud, you know, all the dragons are screaming and all the gargoyles are laughing. So as we reach that world, it becomes harder and harder to see how all of this is connected. And so having the symbolic worldview, I hope, is a way to kind of jump start the engine and get people to kind of get a macro vision of both helping them understand how this breakdown that we’re going through is actually connected to a larger pattern, which is linked to a center, which is linked to the relationship between heaven and earth, all of these more traditional patterns. And so that’s really what I’m hoping to do with helping people have a symbolic worldview. But it’s important to understand that one of the reasons why the ancients didn’t talk explicitly about symbolism the way we talk explicitly about symbolism doesn’t mean that it wasn’t there. It means that it was taken for granted. So when we have to start to explain symbolism instead of just living it, instead of imbibing it in ritual forms, imbibing it in songs and music and, you know, in all kinds of events and architecture, all of this, then when we have to start to explain it, it’s actually bad news. But that’s where we are. So what I’m hoping is that regaining a symbolic worldview will, at least for some people, be a kind of CPR, a kind of CPR to kind of help people breathe again and rediscover from the inside how to participate in reality in a fuller way. So hopefully that answers that. So Luca Askovic asks, what is the symbolism of Genesis 34? Man, you guys. The chapter where Dina, the daughter of Jacob, is raped by Seshem. Seshem and his father strike a deal so that Jacob’s family and Hamor’s family intermarry. Later Seshem, his father, and every male in the city that they resided in were killed by Levi and Simeon. How did this connect? How did this story connect to other stories of the Bible and ultimately to Christ? Let me just do something here for a second. I want to get the chat to be popped out. Man, you guys, that story, that’s one of the toughest stories in the scripture. But it’s also one of those stories that says a lot about how reality works. And so you can understand that story as, let’s say, explaining the relationship between identity and the strange and identity and the foreign. And you have to be careful. Like sometimes I talk about the idea of the foreigner and the foreign, and you really have to understand that category as a universal category. It’s not just about foreigners in the strict sense. It’s that every identity has foreigners to it. Like every form of group, like your family has foreigners. That is, all the strangers outside that you don’t know are strangers to you. And so it’s really as a universal category. We have to be careful not to see it too strictly. But in terms of this story, okay. So the idea is that, first of all, it’s important to notice that Hamor, the father of Seshem, means donkey. It means ass. That’s the first thing to understand. For those who have seen kind of my talk about the symbolism of Christ sitting on the donkey as he enters into Jerusalem and what that means both for, let’s say, for Jews and for Christians. It has to do with this idea of the stranger, the impure animal, the donkey, as the image of this strangeness. And so the problem happens on many sides. And so you can understand it as that which is outside taking your possibilities. And so the feminine, the female, the sister of the brother, the daughter, she represents the possibilities of that world. It could have been someone’s wife. It could have been just like you see in the story of Abram and his wife when he goes into the foreign land and his wife is taken by the Pharaoh. This is similar in terms of the symbolic structure, what it’s talking about, which is that the strange can take your possibilities and can take them away from you so that it will ultimately destroy you. So you imagine a foreign army on the outside. They ask for tribute. They ask for something and you start to give away your wealth to that which is outside. And then you starve yourself and you stop to be fruitful. And so you can imagine that this thing happens where the stranger takes Adina by force. And so now Jacob tries to remedy the situation. Jacob tries to remedy the situation by saying, is there a way that we can actually bring you in and make you in communion with us so that when you if you engage with us, you’re not taking our possibilities, but you were actually building together. And so what he asks is he asks them to be circumcised. And so when he asked them to be circumcised, he’s saying, remove the donkey, remove the outside, remove the animal part, remove the garment of skin. And if you do that, then we will be able to enter into communion with you. And therefore, when you engage our possibilities, it will be a mutual building rather than you taking them away from us and then us losing what we have. And so this is of course. And so that act by Jacob, which is a problematic because Seshem raped Dina. And so it’s not like everything was balanced at the outset. It’s like Jacob reaches out and wants to be in communion with someone who raped his daughter. And then the sons are like, we’re not going to have this. And so what it does is sometimes I talk about how one excess leads into another. And so Jacob’s desire to enter into communion with someone who raped his daughter leads to an excess, which is the son saying, yeah, is that what you want? We’re going to slaughter all of them. And so then comes the other side. Here comes identity manifesting itself as a cutoff, as like we’re going to chop off the we’re we’re going to we’re going to cut off the margin. Like we’re completely going to eliminate the and so it’s like the image of the image of the the sons of Jacob slaughtering the daughters of Hamor is a circumcision in like a very dark, very dark version of circumcision. They’re like, we’re going to remove this. OK. And so how does this relate to Christ? This is very, very, very much related to Christ. Christ is is all about trying to solve the problem of the inside and the outside and how it is that so you can imagine that Christ goes all the way, right, goes all the way and is willing to die even at the hand of the foreigner, the hand of Hamor, because he dies at the hands of the Romans. He also dies at the hands of his own people. So that also all of that is kind of the extremes are manifesting themselves all at the same time. But the idea is that Christ succeeds where Jacob failed. That is where Jacob failed to enter into communion with the stranger. Christ succeeds. Christ is able to to to to join himself with Rome with the with those that killed him. Takes a long time and it happens in a kind of in a very deep, you know, and bubbling up way. But it ends up happening. And then Christ takes over Rome and Rome. It’s not that he takes over it, but that Christ and Rome actually now end up finally end up being joined together. And so you could say that the problem which is set up in this story, the problem of the inside and the outside, the problem of how the outside tends to take what’s inside. And then you want to you want to deal with that either by entering into communion with it, either by pushing them away, you know, or there’s another possibility, which have been to disappear, right, to be taken up by the by the outsider. And you can see it in that story, by the way, because that’s also what’s happening. Because when you see from the side of Hamor, he’s saying, it’s like, ha ha ha, like we are going to enter in communion with them. And then very soon they’ll stop to exist and will basically take up their identity. Right. And so it’s like all of the dark sides of this problem of inside and outside are manifesting itself in that story. And then Christ comes and brings a kind of universal solution to to that problem. So all right, I’m talking way too much at each question, which means that I’m not going to make it through the end of this. All right. All right. OK. So Benjamin R.V.A. says before encountering Capella Romana’s album Lost Voices of Hagia Sophia, it had never occurred to me that music in the past was composed for specific spaces, that different cathedrals had different acoustics and would play differently. It’s made me wonder, do you think we could in the near future offer digital pilgrimages where people might experience holistic historic liturgies and other cultural practices in their original context through technologies like VR? Might this provide a means to transmit body cultural practices that the written word does not? Would there be something inherently wrong about a virtual Eucharist? I would say there’s definitely something wrong about a virtual Eucharist. Especially because Eucharist isn’t just that you’re you’re you’re it has to be embodied. You have to eat the bread and you have to drink the wine. It’s not there’s not it’s not a mental activity. It’s not a it’s not a virtual thing. It has to actually happen. And it also has to happen in communion with others. There’s a there’s a there’s a reality of like kissing the cross and kissing and kissing each other and you know this bowing before each other and the smell of the incense and all of this reality which is which is making us have the same experience in the same place. I think it’s very important. I mean whether or not someone would want to create a you know a pristine representation of some ancient liturgy. I don’t think that’s completely useful useless but it might not be as useful as some other people think which is that tradition is not the same as archaeology. Tradition is not the same. Real traditional people let’s say don’t want to preserve past things just to preserve past things. That is you know an ancient church even if it was hundreds and hundreds of years too small when it was too small and the like say they had a lot of money and they would they had donors and they were capable of making it bigger. They had no problems tearing walls down and making it bigger and renovating it and rebuilding it because because tradition is alive right. And it’s they also wouldn’t want to destroy it like they weren’t looking out to break down the past and build up new things but they also didn’t have a problem with it because the tradition was a living breathing thing. And so the idea is that if we couldn’t and it would be very very stupid to try to revive some practice that happened in Constantinople you know a thousand years ago if it was just to be kind of very very historically accurate. You know like I said tradition is a living organic thing which both looks to the past but is also not a slave to the just to the forms just because they exist right. So hopefully that that makes sense. All right okay so Josh the mover says what is the meaning in Psalm 50 of the line prevail when thou are judged. It seems to suggest God will be judged is the is this referring to the world’s opinion of Christ as when Pilate judged him. I would have to look at the context of that because I don’t I don’t necessarily remember that. Who is that who is that referring to. I look I’m sorry I don’t know I don’t understand the context enough to be able to answer you Josh sorry about that prevail and our judge I would I need to I would need to take the time to look at the context sorry about that maybe next time provide a little more I know I ask you guys to write short questions but maybe provide a little more context because I don’t know that that. Psalm by heart. All right so Jane VA says what is the best way for someone new to the Orthodox Church to seek a congregation in the DC area where I live there are Greek Russian Coptic Romanians here can’t you can accept right. My journey has been raised fundamentalist Protestant rebelled by becoming anti religious JBB you curious about Orthodox Church any resources you can offer. I don’t wish to stagger into the Orthodox equivalent of a Baptist Church. So I mean I would say. I would say the best thing is to contact the priest. The best thing would be to contact the priest and to kind of see what kind of church that you’re dealing with you know. You know my I would say like my experience is that often the Antiochian churches and the OCA churches the Orthodox Church of America are more. Are more welcoming to strangers stranger that aren’t part of the ethnic group that the church is representing so you know if you have a Greek church or a you know like a Romanian church sometimes it’ll all be in Romanian and then there will be like a more. Ethnic aspect to the church and so that it can be fine if you can handle it but it can also be alienating it can be difficult so I would say to see like if there’s a church that the services are in English that’s already probably a good sign that they’re open to to to newcomers are open to people that aren’t part of their strict group. And so that would be what I would suggest you to do. Alright so Timothy Aspaslaw asked hey Jonathan in Roman Catholicism it is allowed to draw Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God. Yes can you talk a bit about why we don’t find these images in the Orthodox Church and how that relates to iconology. So this is a more technical question but. I mean it’s important and so it I don’t talk about kind of the specifics of iconography so much you know just because sometimes it gets it gets difficult but so in in the early centuries there was a. Council called the Kinisex Council and the Kinisex Council was the council between the fifth and the sixth ecumenical council and so in the Kinisex Council had several aspects but one of the aspects it had was to say that in in Christ we have the. We have the let’s say we have the anti type of the prototype and so you can imagine that in the Old Testament there were prototypes of the incarnation. So the Lamb of God different images that could be used to represent to represent Christ but with with the coming of Christ we have the real thing we have the thing itself we have Christ and so we should represent in images the image of the person Christ and not represent him. Has the anti types as the shadows before which were kind of pointing to the Messiah so this was a council that that like I said was between the fifth and sixth ecumenical council now. Now this council was never accepted by Rome and so when the council arrived at the Pope’s desk the Pope was so annoyed at this this suggestion that that is the moment where in the the the Catholic. The Catholic liturgy right in the Catholic mass it it always has when it says a Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world that’s when it got fixed into the mass because the Pope was like I’m not going to let this go through and so then the Pope actually commissioned to renovate a a church in which he had he had the Lamb of God portrayed in the more and a very in a very. It’s a elaborate way and so that separation stayed until now and so in Orthodox churches sometimes they take that idea within the kinesex council and they actually push it further and so for example that you know I I will tend to represent I’ll be very comfortable representing. Christ in glory with the four the four animals of Ezekiel you know as the four evangelists but in some churches they will they won’t do that they’ll only represent the evangelist as the the the people and so you’ll see like in a in a in Orthodox Church often you’ll have the dome of Christ and then in the corners of the pendentive that are like the four glories or the four protrusions of Christ then they’ll represent the four evangelists but not as animals. But as as people whereas in the West that that remain but in the East you still do find people that will represent the the four glories as animals and so that’s what it is it was a it was a it was a one of those squabbles between East and West which happened quite early in the story so. That’s less simple but less about symbolism and more about just a inner inner church squabbles. Alright so what is the symbolism of milk and honey specifically with regards to the land of Israel. Milk and honey are like it’s a you could understand it as as as two graces that are coming from God you can understand it as something like two aspects of wisdom or two aspects of knowledge. You know one of them is one of them has to do with the idea of more like a feeding let’s say directly in terms of what comes from the mother and then the other has to do with kind of wisdom which comes from something like the wild right and so one is from the mother one is from the the the bugs you know one is from the the. One is from the inside one is from the outside and so it has to do with this idea of this this relationship of how there is something sweet there’s something feeding and that there’s something sweet that come from the inside and also something sweet that comes from the outside and so the ultimate example where you can see this symbolism is for example when Samson. Finds honey in the carcass of the dead lion this is really showing the symbolism of honey and so the idea is that the lion first of all is impure because it’s not a kosher animal and the line is impure also because it’s dead and Samson is supposed to be a Nazarite and so he’s actually not supposed to touch anything dead and he’s not supposed to consume anything impure. And so he finds honey inside the dead carcass of the animal and so there and but honey is kosher so it’s important to understand that it comes from the wild it comes from the outside but it’s also kosher it’s also something that the Jews were allowed to eat and so it’s like from this dead carcass. From the impure the foreign the strange you know the hammer the donkey all of that that nonetheless in that that fringe possibility he finds the sweetness and so that’s also why John the Baptist who lives in the desert is the sweetest of all. And so that’s also why John the Baptist who lives in the desert eats bugs and wears garments of animal skin but also eat honey because that’s the wisdom that he has access to it’s the with this kind of wisdom which is hidden in the outside so all right. Alright here we go so Nelson Justin Evan when the Bible speaks of the church is it meant to be interpreted as one of the Catholic Orthodox Protestant etc denominations or does it point to something like the invisible fellowship of ultra believers regardless of denomination. And so when the Bible speaks of the church it talks about the one church there’s only one church and and it’s not invisible because the body is not invisible the body is visible and so it’s not invisible to the body. And so when the Bible speaks of the church it talks about the one church there’s only one church and and it’s not invisible because the body is not invisible the body is visible and so it’s a it’s a paradox it’s a it’s a it’s a sad the fact that the church is broken or the. It’s hard to even say that the fact that there are these divisions which happen in the story of the church is a scandal it’s not normal it’s something something which is shouldn’t be accepted it’s something that shouldn’t be seen as inevitable and and and something we have to just accept. It is a it is a sign of our sinfulness it’s a sign of our incapacity to hold together and so and so when the Bible talks about the church it talks about the one there’s only one and it’s visible and it’s and it’s the body of Christ so you know that’s what it is. That’s what it is. Okay so Eric says it would be very interesting to hear you talk about the divine council giants are getting somebody in regards to the article by the way God bless. And so those who. Who heard me talk I I’m constantly trying to get you guys listen to the Lord of Spirits podcast it is in a way advanced listening it’s advanced listening in the sense that. You know. Father Stephen and Father Andrew they really stay in the story pattern like they really talk about it in a very mythological story version and so it’s it’s it’s a it can it can be intense for kind of atheist and secular minded people because it’s like all right here are these hierarchy of angels and here’s this divine council and God is sitting in his throne and the angels are are worshiping him and are becoming principalities in the world. And we’re called to be principality all right so but if you want to understand I’ve I’ve said this all the time like you’ll I think someone I think Lisa or Lassa who who are running the chips the clips channel put up a clip recently which is which I talk about that which is that hierarchy the hierarchy that I talk about in the world is not a hierarchy of concepts but is really a hierarchy of beings and and that’s actually how it how it works and so you can imagine that there are beings that are beings that that come up into principalities and then these principalities are beings that go all the way up into the higher higher form then you can imagine that at the highest you have a divine council which is the closest beings around the divine the divine the divine throne and those are the highest principalities in the world they are the rulers of all aspects of reality and so the higher aspects of reality and so. They also worship they serve but they also become they also become the the principles and so the idea that father Andrew and father Stephen are trying to help people to understand is that. What are the things that happens with Christ is that we are called to become that to join the divine council to become to become principalities in our participation in Christ and so. Their their their contention and I totally agree with it is that when we talk about the patron saints of things and the patron saints of places and of churches that’s an actual reality it’s not just a it’s not just a kind of. Like a poetic desire to name something after someone we like it’s like that being is acting as a principal for that for that community for that church for that whatever it is this being named you know through the name of a of a of a saint and so. There’s a competition there’s a competition in the principalities there’s still some struggle in there you know it’s like especially as we become secular and we start to name things after people that aren’t necessarily in that divine hierarchy and so there’s a competition there’s a war in heaven and and there’s a fight between the principalities and who is actually going to become you know the different. Who’s going to name that’s how are we going to name that street how are we going to name that bridge how are we going to name these things this is super important and how reality lays itself out and how we see what is ruling in in the world and what it’s holding it together so. Or participating in its fragmentation we could say. Or participating in its fragmentation we could say. Alright so Kingsley says hey Jonathan wondering if you can elaborate more on how you view modern counseling approaches techniques CBT psychoanalysis etc are there specific counseling approaches or techniques that you would deem harmful. I probably don’t know enough about that my father is a psychologist by the way I might have mentioned that before. One of the things like for example I’ll tell you an interesting thing my father right now is using something called family systems therapy and he finds that in this system is this family systems therapy there’s this idea that. There’s an analogy between how a family works and how you work in as a person and so there’s this fractal structure where you have different parts of you that have different wills and volitions and they’re they’re fighting amongst each other they’re collaborating. And that you have to be able to bring them together into a communion in the same manner in which a family brings itself into communion and so my father has been taking up that approach because he sees it as coherent with. With a kind of more traditional vision of the human person is kind of fractal reality and more in in. Let’s say in communion with how the fathers would talk about the psyche and all of this there are some really good orthodox books that talk about that there’s a there’s a book called I think it’s called. Orthodox psychotherapy I think it’s called and then there’s also one of the great books which was written. In French actually. And now I’m going to forget his name my goodness. It’s called theology of illness and it’s written by a French author and now I’m going to forget his name it’s going to it’s horrible and somebody can remind me in the in the chat what his name is I have it in there somewhere in my library. It’s called his name is Jean Claude Lachaise man. His name is Jean Claude Lachaise man. Hope he never hears this and sees that I forgot his name. So Jean Claude Lachaise has written a wonderful book on spiritual illness and he’s a physician but he really goes into the Church Fathers and how they view the psyche and how to apply different methods to kind of help people through their their psychological problems. All right. So David Flores says what symbolism has captured your attention currently also your AI conversation was awesome well happy you enjoyed the AI conversation. I mean capture my attention you know there’s all the COVID stuff is hard to avoid like the COVID stuff is majorly capturing my attention. And so I’m being very very attentive to what’s going on and the moves that are happening and what it means in terms of societies of control and let’s say systems of control and systems of naming and systems of identification you know I’ve been very sensitive to that and how the strange idea that it would be related to COVID and vaccines and tracing and all of these ideas and what I’ve been thinking about. So I’m actually working on a video which will be on the Mark of the Beast and so I’m taking my time because I don’t want to say anything that people will think is crazy but I’m probably going to make a video on the Mark of the Beast very very soon hopefully this week or maybe next week. All right so from okay Mikael hi you have said more bad things about Michelangelo’s art than Raphael and Leonardo have said combined. At the same time you come yourself from a Western background are you not afraid of she bears coming after you. Have you ever considered rather following the pattern of the Abbot Sujur of Saint Denis who learned the text of Eastern mystics and revolutionized Western architecture by sponsoring the birth of the French Gothic or maybe it is exactly what you do with your YouTube channel. Yes I think the Sujur of Saint Denis is a very important figure in terms of in terms of understanding what art can do and understanding its relationship to the manifestation of spiritual realities in the physical world and so you know it’s like the one of the reasons why I’m not so afraid of going after Michaelangelo is because he is like everybody sees him as the sum of the sum of the world. He is the summit of like Western art as like the great genius and the great initiator of everything and honestly like I really don’t see him that way and so and so I actually find it kind of funny that I see him rather as kind of like the beginning of the decline of Western art. You know so you know I just think that’s funny and but I really do believe that I really think that Michaelangelo’s art is has all has everything in it which kind of came about later in terms of the breakdown of visual of a visual reality so. Alright so Jacob says it is obvious that we live in the time of excessive chaos values confusion gender confusion etc. Or could it be argued that it’s actually the time of excessive order. E.g. there’s no room for any kind of nonconformism towards the rules of the outrage crowd one way or another. How was the time before unbalanced to the other extreme so that the pendulum had to swing so far to the border. Is it still the World War World War two residue. And PS are you planning to visit your wife’s homeland in any time in the future. So my wife is from Slovakia and so I would love to we we’ve been there once at the beginning of our relationship but we haven’t been there since I was actually thinking that maybe we could go there for several months with the kids so that they kind of get a sense of that aspect of their their heritage. So I would love to do that and you’re right your intuition about the situation right now is very good because we know I often talk about the clown world stuff and how the world is upside down but this is the pendulum is kind of there at the same time. So we there’s both a a kind of excessive you know insane upside down clown world and there’s also a kind of excessive insane culture of control and so that’s why I like this the joke that how is it that we could have brave new world and 1984 at the same time even though we’re watching it happen in before our very eyes. And so that is kind of the weird contradiction of the 666 symbolism and the the the system of the beast let’s say which is that in the desire to control to name everything right in the desire to kind of have a all encompassing system. It also ends up moving out into the exceptions and let’s say featuring the exceptions and so it’s like this strange contradiction and but then it also is leading to it also leading to the kind of this is why the upside down is also a hierarchy it’s like an upside down hierarchy that’s why I like the satanic hierarchy you can call it right. That’s why the the world as it breaks down it actually forms like a weird inverted hierarchy you know rather than just kind of break down into you know kind of fall apart and spread out so and so and is it World War Two residue it’s more than World War Two residue it’s just as it’s just like you know when we talk about like fractal patterns and fractal cycles and so this is what’s going on it’s like the thing that happened before World War Two is that it’s like the thing that happened before World War Two let’s say let’s say the communist revolutions Weimar and technological advance all of this weird stuff and then identitarianism all of this was kind of happening and now it’s happening like all of it at times ten in terms of maybe not the communist revolutions but let’s say, several aspects are happening way bigger and so Yeah, what does that lead to? We’ll see. All right, Cooper Hayes says, while dragons may be more real than dinosaurs, where do the fossils fit into the symbolic worldview? So a good way to understand what fossils are is that they’re residues, they’re residues from a world that’s gone. That’s what they are. And so that’s also what dragons are. Dragons are also things that you don’t know what they are that kind of nonetheless take up form and then come in and try to devour you. And so that’s also what dragons are. And so it’s not arbitrary that there’s a relationship with fossils and the vision of dragons and of these ancient beasts that are there in the ground and that we don’t remember, but they’re there nonetheless. And they’re not part of our world, but they end up being part of our world by manifesting this kind of fragmented, kind of animal chaos that is there. And so there’s a total relationship between the experience of fossils and the categories of the dragon. All right. All right, so we’re done with the Symbolic World website. And it is 10 to 10. Not bad. I have energy. I used to not be able to go more than like an hour. Now I think I could probably go for two hours. It should be okay. All right. And so here we go with now on Patreon. Oh, I didn’t know it. Like just for people, if anybody’s new here, the… Oh, I wanted to do something before I move on to Patreon. I’m going to do this right in the middle of the video so that people actually have to watch half the video. Is that the last Patreon only video that I made is a video on the symbolism of the Jesus Prayer. And I made it Patreon only video. And some people are very not annoyed. Maybe some people are annoyed with me. And some people don’t understand why I did that. And the reason is that I’ve been thinking about making a video about the symbolism of the Jesus Prayer for a while, but I didn’t want it to be a public video on YouTube that could be picked up by the algorithm and that could be promoted just because it’s a difficult subject and is not something that is meant to be cried out into the stratosphere. And so what I wanted to do is to offer it to people who are more engaged. And so I put it up for Patrons only, but also for people who are on the Facebook group, people who are on the Discord group. And I told people that they can share it privately to those who think would be interested in. And so right now I’m going to post the link to that video in the chat. And so because you guys are here and you guys are involved and you’re watching this live, I also want to make it available to you guys. And like I said, you can share it to people in private, but please don’t… I don’t want this to be like a public video, right? And that’s the idea of why I made it private and why I kind of tried to contain it, let’s say. All right? So it’s there in the chat, but I will probably, by the end of the discussion, I’ll probably delete it from the chat so that it doesn’t end up in the public video. All right, guys? Okay, so now let’s go into the Patreon questions. So Bjorn Olson asks, I wonder if the inability to hear and see each other that we are seeing on both sides of the political sphere right now and the general misinformation coming from every angle regarding the current situation is somehow related to the spirit of confusion. Could you elaborate on that? How can we overcome it? I mean, I would say yes, that’s a good way to understand it. I mean, one way to understand it is that as we cease to have something which unites us, then the things that are separate at the bottom are gonna start to move farther and farther away from each other, right? So think of it as like a wheel or think of it as a mountain. As you move farther away from the mountain, the points that were close together at the top are now becoming further and further apart. And they, because they don’t remember what it is that is bringing them together, then they can’t see, they can’t see in the other part. They can’t see that that other part is linked with them higher up, you know? And so what’s going on is just inevitable. It’s like, when someone says something like multiculturalism is wonderful, it’s like, what do you mean? It’s a very disturbing way of seeing the world. It’s like, there’s a multicultural, there can be multicultural, there’s always been multicultural, but that multicultural nonetheless has to have something which unites it above. There has to be, there also has to be a uniting principle which will join the different multiculturalists together or else it’s war, right? Or else it’s conflict, or else it’s the incapacity to see why I should be next to the person next to me. And so the idea of like diversity in itself or multiculturalism in itself, it doesn’t work. It’s impossible. It’s like a, it’s a complete impossibility. It can only work if there’s something, there’s some principle higher which is joining them together. And so if you look at ancient empires, like if you look at the Byzantine Empire, it was massively multicultural in the sense that there were Syrians and Armenians and Greeks and Latins and there were different aspects of society that have their different practices and the different guilds and their different, so it had massive variety, but it also recognized something that united it together at the top. And without that, that what’s going on now is inevitable. The conflict will grow because how can you, if you don’t recognize what’s joining you together, then all you can see are enemies. All you can see are people that are different from you. And ultimately that doesn’t work. It’s not possible. All right. So, hi Jonathan. What is your take on the symbolism of sealing as used in scripture? For example, the seven seals in Revelation and being marked by God’s seal in Ephesians 1.13. My intuition tells me sealing has to do with being authorized, having a defined traceable origin and thus following a straight path. Please also comment on the seven seals in Revelation. And so, well, there are different aspects to what, yes, there are different aspects to the seal. And so it depends on the context, but obviously a seal is something which is, like you said, is making it authoritative. And so if you put a seal on something, it is saying this comes, this is authentic. This is the real thing. It comes, it is connected to the thing that sealed it, right? And so if like you write a letter and then the king puts a seal on the letter, he’s saying, I recognize this as my, I’m recognizing this as my word. Even if the king maybe didn’t write it himself, he’s saying, I give it authority, right? And so that is what the seal means. It means that it comes with the authority of that which is above it. And so it’s like, if you receive the seal of God, then you have been bound to God. And your actions and your, the things you do will be manifestation of that which sealed you. Even if it’s your own gestures, they nonetheless will be, will have received the authority that God has given you. So that’s the idea of the seals. Now there’s another aspect of the seal, which is also a holding secret, which is a holding into the inside. And that’s more, has more to do with the idea of the seals in Revelation. So it’s the idea that there are, the seal also, like if you have a letter and there’s a seal that closes it and keeps it shut, and it’s only meant to be opened for a specific reason. And so in that sense, the idea that, let’s say, that there are some things within a structure of authority that are only for itself, that are meant to be kept secret within the organization, that aren’t meant for the outside. And so that will also receive a seal in the sense that it will, it’s like the seal then becomes like a wall around it, which is saying, this is meant for the inside, this is meant for us, and it has to be contained. And so the idea of the breaking of the seals is that, let’s say these mysteries, when they get opened up and then they kind of pour out onto the world, they act, let’s say, they don’t, they act like wrath, let’s say. It’s like that which is held together inside has a certain, let’s say the love of the, you can imagine like the love of the mother for her children, which keeps that inside and protects the inside. Once that same love gets turned to the outside, it opens up, it can become she bear, like she bear love, where now I’m going to ravage what is not in the inside. And so the breaking of the seals in Revelation seems to have to do with something like that. All right. All right, so Nina Moore says, I don’t have a question, but I’m so stoked because I just got my, obviously Santa Claus exists shirt. Well, I love it and so do my kids. Well, I’m happy you enjoy it. I had a lot of fun making that. By the way, my daughter is, I designed that with my two daughters. And so my daughter who was, I mean, I guess at that time, she must have been like seven or eight. She’s the one who made the writing. She wrote it down. And then with my other daughter, who’s a little older, she kind of helped me to think of the design and how to put it together. So that was fun. All right, so Jeff Dunlop asks, if enlightened culture is depersoning, God becomes high ideals, King becomes constitution, father replaced by money, mother replaced by childcare. Does this system eat itself in the end? Does it bring the return of the person? And so, yes, I mean, it’s definitely, it’s already happening. It’s already happening. So, but I think it’s not completely. And I think what I’m doing and what other people like me are doing is part of that, is part of now showing how once you, once enlightened culture starts to really take seriously the person, or to now turn the eye back and try to understand the personal, then it starts to lose its bearings. It starts to lose its foot. Then the person is going to reappear and is going to start to re-manifest himself. So, yeah. So Nathan Hart says, can you explain the story of Jacob wrestling God? I’ve read many interpretations, but none of them quite capture the powerful mystical condensed aspect of what happened in that short moment. Yeah, because that’s a tough story, man. That story is difficult. At least I find it difficult to completely understand. It definitely has something with Jacob. It has something to do with Jacob himself and the problem of Jacob, you could say. And so it’s like, you know, when Christ says that the kingdom of God comes through violence or comes to those who take it by violence, there’s something about this idea that Jacob is able to pull the blessing down on himself. And it’s something which is like, it’s less especially as a Christian, it’s like the kind of thing which makes you uneasy because there really is this idea that grace comes first. But in that story, that’s what you get. It’s like Jacob wants the blessing and he’s willing to fight for it and he’s willing to go all out and he’s willing to do all kinds of things, right, to get the blessing. You can think that that’s what he’s doing. Think about it this way. Jacob is wrestling with God when he steals his brother’s blessing. He’s willing to do anything to get it. And so it’s almost like most people will fight and do anything to get the riches. But what does it mean when Jacob the snake is willing to do everything, willing to lie and cheat and do all these things to get the blessing? It’s a very strange story. So when Jacob pretends to be his brother in order to get his father’s blessing, he’s already doing that at a lower level. And then when he wrestles with the angel, that’s what it’s showing. It’s like he’s willing to do anything in order to get the blessing and he gets it. So I don’t know what to tell you, man. I’m not gonna make any theological pronouncement on that, but that’s what it is. And you can see that the story is structured so that you realize the relationship between getting the blessing from his father through weird means and then getting the blessing of God through weird means. All right. So Jonathan Morgan says, “‘Symbolism of the boogeyman and monsters under the bed.‘” And that’s a pretty simple one, isn’t it? Don’t you think? I mean, in the sense that it’s like you’re sleeping. Sleeping is the place where reason starts to break down. It’s the place where consciousness goes away. That’s where monsters come from. Monsters come from the place where reason breaks down. It comes to the place where the category system breaks down when you encounter the unknown. And so you can imagine that the experience of also being at night and then going into unconsciousness and then understanding that the monsters come from below in the psyche, but they also come from below just normally, right? The crocodile that pops out of the water and grabs you this monster that comes out and gets you, that image or the snake that pops up and gets you or the creeping beast that will surprise you. And so it makes sense that those monsters would be under your bed because they’re under manifestation. They’re at the bottom of the world. They’re in hell, they’re in death, however you wanna phrase it. So imagine the world as a hierarchy. You have the ceiling, then the bed acts as a level of being and then under that, there’s this unknown, dark, chaotic level of being, which is under there and that’s where the monsters are. That’s where they come from. All right. So Ron Wood says, an icon that is used for liturgical purpose has a clear place and explicit use, but apart from ornamentation, how should art be integrated Roger Scruton suggested humans don’t need everything to have an explicit use in the utility sense. Is this true symbolically as well? And so one of the things, so there’s several things that, let’s say the objects that you put in your house, there are several things that they can do. For sure, if they’re beautiful and they’re useful, that brings things together. And so, for example, having a beautiful vase or a beautiful kitchenware and having that displayed, that can be something which is kind of joining things together in terms of not having things that are arbitrary. There’s also a joining, which is related to memory. And so the idea that in your home, you would have objects that participate in your story or that help you remember things. And so if you look behind me, like the basket that is there, it’s a basket. Obviously I don’t use it as a basket, but that basket is something which has very intense personal connection to me because it’s a basket that I brought out of a war zone while I was having gun, while there was gunfire going over my head, I carried my clothes in this basket to be evacuated. And so it’s like that basket is very strong, but I also find it very beautiful and aesthetic and pleasing. So then I put it up. And so similar things that you’ll see around me will have some connection. And so both my wife and I, we really don’t like having arbitrary art in our house. And so the art that we have is usually connected to something, connected either to memory, connected made by a friend, made by me or that the subject is something that we care about and that is close to us in some way. So I think that the closer you get to that, the better it is for creating a coherent space. But there’s also decoration is not a, is something, decoration is something. And so decoration is also something that you can do. But I would be wary of the contemporary art, like wary of art which is extremely cynical and ironic and kind of these double, triple ironies. I would be very cynical about, I would very cautious about putting that up in your house just because the things that you have around you will affect you. All right, so, so JL says, hello Jonathan, I remember a video with John Vervecky and I think Paul VanderKlay and JP Marceau. And what I can remember at one point in the video, John gets excited when he finds out that perhaps he can believe in miracles if he can equate them with the placebo effect. I’ve seen you and others talk about the placebo effect and emergence and all that stuff before, but I’m afraid it’s all a bit over my head. Is it possible to get a dumbed down explanation of how miracles relate to the placebo effect? All right. So, and then he says, do you have any idea when John Vervecky’s religion is coming out? When’s it dropping? I don’t know what you’re referring to there. I hope he’s not starting a religion. But, so how does the miracles relate to the placebo effect? It’s actually quite simple. Is that helping people see the effects of the placebo effect helping people see the placebo effect and helping them think about it is forcing people to see something which everybody recognizes as existing, right? So everybody recognizes that the placebo effect is a real thing because it’s there in research. You know, if you’re going to have a proper research on medicine, you need to include the placebo effect in your research because people recognize it as an actual phenomena. But it’s a phenomena whose causality is not the mechanical causality. It’s a causality of meaning. And so what causes the placebo effect is meaning. Is meaning authority, right? Trust, that’s what causes the placebo effect. And so those things, right? Meaning, trust, authority, that’s what miracles are made of. Miracles are made of faith, authority, and meaning. Because miracles aren’t just freak events. All the miracles of Christ are extremely meaningful. They are showing the pattern of reality. And so that’s why the placebo effect is like a wedge in the world where in the materialistic world you can point to something which no one can deny and doesn’t function by materialistic, material causality in the kind of mechanical billiard ball type of causality that people think about. So that’s why it’s important. And that’s why it can help people understand. We’re not saying that the placebo effect is miracles. We’re saying that understanding the placebo effect can help you understand how there are events in the world that happen through meaning. And that’s what a miracle is, just at a higher level than placebo effect. All right, and so Dorothee asks, hi Jonathan, have you watched the anime Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood? And so no, I haven’t. A lot of people have told me I should watch Fullmetal Alchemist. And so maybe, who knows? I don’t know. I don’t watch a lot of stuff. And so I’m actually watching, some people will probably get annoyed with this, but I am actually watching the second season of Attack, what is it? Attack on Titan or whatever, the Titan show. It’s very violent and disturbing, but there’s a really interesting play, understanding of how the giants work and how the walls, I won’t spoil anything for you, but there’s a relationship between the walls and the giants and there’s infiltration. And so it’s all about the inside and the outside and how some people from the outside can help fight off the outside and stuff. So it’s actually an interesting structure in terms of that, but maybe one day I’ll watch that, I don’t know. So like I said, I don’t watch a lot of stuff. So Norm Gondin says, at the beginnings of Christianity, the cross was originally not depicted with Christ on it. Yet over time this changed. Can you speak of why this happened and or the symbolism and effect of this change on Christianity and how this changed the Christian view of Christ and the symbol of the cross in general? So I think one of the things that we can understand of how Christianity laid itself out is that we have to understand early Christianity as a really, it was an initiative and a participatory group. That is, in order to have access to what the Christians really believed, you had to be initiated into the church. So it wasn’t like today, it wasn’t like preachers on every corner or me on the internet, just revealing the mysteries of the church. That didn’t happen. So you see it, it’s still contained in the liturgy today and the Orthodox liturgy where you have the first part of the liturgy, the liturgy of the word, which it was meant for even people who weren’t Christian, catechumens, but even not anybody, but catechumens that weren’t in communion. And then those would leave and then there would be the liturgy of the faithful where the highest mysteries of the Christian church was revealed. And so you see that, for example, there are early texts called mystagogies. And these mystagogies, what they were, were when someone was a catechumen and was entering into the church, once they were baptized, then they would be told like the real mysteries. But before that, they weren’t told. It’s like you get the sense even that maybe some people didn’t know about communion before they were baptized. So when they were baptized, all of a sudden they were faced with the mystery of eating the blood and body of Christ. You know, it’s like, you can almost get that sense that that’s what was going on. But so the idea is that the crucified Christ is the highest mystery there is. It’s like, do you realize how scandalous that image is? Can you even fathom how scandalous it is to have this dead body on the cross and say this is an image of your God? It’s like, it’s a very scandalous, insane proposition, which can only be approached to very slowly and very methodically, and that a person has to be brought into that mystery and initiated into it. And so now we take it for granted. And I think that that’s what happened is I think that the mystery of Christ as the church became more accepted and as the church became the standard culture, then the mystery of the cross and the scandal of the cross was accepted. And the mystery of the cross became available to people and kind of people lived in it. And so it then became possible to represent Christ on the cross. Whereas before it would have been like too high a mystery to show people, like explicitly like that. But there are some like early representations of Christ on the cross that are very schematic, like fifth century images. There are a few, but often even at the beginning, Christ would be shown like with his eyes open, sometimes wearing like a kind of royal vestment. And it’s really late, like ninth century, 10th century, you start to see images of Christ dead on the cross, like the Geo-Crucifix seems, I think it’s like ninth century, I think or late eighth century. And so it starts to come in later. But I think that’s what it is. But I mean, I might be wrong, but that’s my take on it. All right, so Eamon says, Jonathan, could you speak more about the meaning of sex and its effects on binding two people together? How does the soul get bound? And what are the patterns of the binding and unraveling? And so, I mean, the scripture doesn’t say that the soul gets bound together. It’s not like the two souls become one soul, but you get the meaning of the soul. But you get bound in the body, that is you become one body. And you become one, so people, it’s not that complicated to kind of understand it. It’s like, what a body is. It’s like, I really love Father Stephen from the podcast, the Lord of Spirits podcast called when he talks about the body as a nexus of possibilities or a nexus of powers. And so it’s, and by the way, I think I used that I used that exact wording in the talk with Jordan Peterson, kind of like a little tip of the hat to Father Stephen there. But so you can understand that when you join two bodies together, the successful joining of the two bodies together is an extra body. It’s a growing of the possibilities. And so you join together with someone in the body, and then you have fruits. That’s the more immediate way to understand it is that it really does bind you with someone. But it’s like, you don’t necessarily have to just have a child every time, but it’s like, you can understand that the fact that this is what this is doing by joining you to someone and then having more body, it’s like, that’s one of the things that sex is. It really is a joining. And so then, but it happens kind of in the hierarchy, this idea of the man as the head of the family and the woman is more on the body side, you would say. And so you could understand that when a man and a woman join together, the woman becomes the vessel, becomes the body, which receives the seed of the man. And so she becomes one body with him in the sense that she becomes the home of his body. Right? So, I mean, I don’t want to become explicit here, but it’s like, she becomes the home of his body and so that is how they become one body. Right? So something coming from above and something coming from below join together in that sense. So that’s it. And so, but it’s a real thing. Like it’s a real thing and there are subtle aspects to it. It’s not just like a carnal thing. There are subtle aspects to the body that aren’t just carnal. And right? There are subtle aspects of you that get joined together with someone in a sexual union that are very hard to dissolve. And so that has to do with memory. It has to do with attraction and let’s say connection. And so those things are not physical in the grossest sense, but they’re nonetheless part of your nexus of possibilities. So your memory is an easiest way to understand. It’s like if you have an intercourse with someone, then that is going to be part of you forever. It’s like you can’t get rid of that. It’s part of your story, part of your memory. And then if you bring that, if then you have a relationship with someone else, you’re going to bring that memory into that relationship and it will be damaging to that relationship because you’ll compare, because you’ll still have some longing for that which was there before. So it’s a dangerous game to play in terms of if you really want to join together in a union with your spouse, it’s a dangerous game to play if you come in with all these other experiences because it’s going to be part of that, it’s going to be like parasites in your relationship that are going to be there. All right, so Christopher Mihaly says, can you clarify your dragons are more real than dinosaurs statement? And so kind of like that, there was a question like that a little earlier there. It seems pretty obvious, doesn’t it? That dragons are more real than dinosaurs. I mean, dragons contain dinosaurs, dinosaurs don’t contain dragons. So dragons are more real than dinosaurs. All right, so let me explain it a little more. So the dragon category involves the fact that you don’t know what those things are completely. And so the chaos element of these bones that are strewn about in the world and that are there in the ground, the unknown aspect of it is contained in the category of dragon, these monsters that you don’t totally understand. One of the funniest things is like to see like the artist’s scientific rendition of dinosaurs and how they keep changing all the time. And they think that they’re getting closer, I don’t know, whatever they imagine what the dinosaurs look like. And they think that they’re somehow being precise about it. And it’s just hilarious, what colors were dinosaurs? And then we have all these images and we think that they’re real, but the dragon is more real because the dragon says, this is part fantasy. The way that we’re representing the dragon is a fantasy because we’ve never seen a dragon. Or if we have in some vision or some ecstatic state or whatever. And so because of it, it means that all of these elements are more joined together in the right way. They contain more reality than this weird, they act as if people, like the scientists act as if dinosaurs are like species in the world today that they can just like, almost as if they still exist. And then they can just like put them in categories and they can tell us what they ate and like what their digestive system was like. And you hear these scientists make all these hilarious statements. Then in two weeks or in a few months, then they’ll realize that they’re wrong and then now they’ll have a better idea of what these dinosaurs look like. Sorry guys. I always feel bad when I become extremely cynical about scientists. All right. Okay, man. So the Wakeful says, Dear Jonathan, is there a conflict between the path of theosis as experienced by the mystic and the social solidity of a church? Is it the case that mystics who have claimed to experience theosis often claim to shed the specific forms, ritual litany, et cetera, that provide a church with structure? To quote Meister Eichhardt, whoever sees God in a definite mode accepts the mode and misses God who’s hidden in that mode. Whoever seeks God without a mode, however, grasps him as he is in himself. So this is actually, like you could say, that this is how you differentiate a real mystic from a fake one, is in your question. So I’m gonna tell you guys like a little secret about mystics. And so, yes, that’s true. It’s true that the theosis leads to an exception. It leads to an experience of God that is beyond all form. And so even in hesychasm, the experience of divine light is without image, right? It’s something which is beyond any experience in the strict sense. And so you don’t, they actually don’t have vision. There’s no vision. There’s just this direct encounter with the infinite. And so there’s no form, right? That’s how the highest mystic encounters God. But that no form, right? That highest aspect, when it comes back down, it always takes body. It always takes form. That’s why the world exists, right? That’s why the world is also an expression of the infinite. And so you can imagine that the highest aspect of something is kind of like a negation of that thing or negation of the particularities of that thing, always. Okay, so highest aspect of a cup is the negation of the particular aspects of the cup. Right, it has to be. Or else if it’s just the particular aspects of the cup, then it’s not going to be a cup. So all identity functions that way. So you can imagine that as you get higher and higher, it gets more and more lofty. And then when you reach the highest sphere where all of reality itself is like stopping, and then this last move where you move into the formless, then it’s like, that’s how reality works. But nonetheless, when you come back down, it all lays itself out. And so if you want to know the difference between, let’s say a real mystic and a fake mystic, the fake mystic is going to be an iconoclast. The fake mystic is going to say that authority is wrong, that the church is all off, that all the forms of the church are evil. And so it’s like, that’s the difference. It’s really interesting to see. Because you’ve heard people like that, probably today you’ve heard people like that, they will say something like, I believe God is beyond all forms, and therefore I don’t participate in any forms. And so the real mystic will do that, in an ascetic sense, but then nonetheless, let’s say the true mystics in the orthodox church will still take communion if it’s possible for them, it will still participate in the church services if it presents itself to them, but they don’t have to. They don’t need to, they are beyond that. But they still, if they descend, they will descend in the body, right? They won’t hate, they won’t hate the form, they won’t hate authority, you know. Anyways, so think about that, because I know there’s so many neospiritualists today that are exactly that. And that’s the problem with the Gnostics. The Gnostics, that’s one of the problems with the Gnostics is that they had a glimpse of this mystery, that God is beyond all forms, but then they weren’t able to come back down and see that the forms are also manifestations of the divine at the level at which they were, and not always just these evil corruptions of the divine principle, so. It’s a big deal. All right, so Jason Lindsay asks, hey Jonathan, in your recent video with Dr. Paula Bottington, the notion that there is a priestly caste bringing their idols into the world, the machines was brought up. This is a pattern I have felt for several years now, however, one thing I’ve always wondered and can’t pin down is if these people are consciously aware that they are serving as priests for some kind of hidden deities. I find it hard to believe some of these techie people are consciously sacrificing to bring about long dead pagan gods to ruin our lives. Are there any stories in history or scripture about people who unintentionally serve as priests for foreign gods without realizing it? The closest story I can think of is King Solomon and the gods of his many wives, yes, but it feels different than what’s going on right now. Thank you for any insight. And so, yes, I think that your insight about King Solomon is actually a pretty good insight in the sense that, and the relationship, not just in King Solomon, but the relationship in scripture between the idea of taking foreign wives and the danger of taking foreign wives and then serving foreign gods. That’s exactly what it is. It’s that I think most people, there are probably some that are more aware than we think, and we hope not, but I would say most people, they serve the god for the goods that they get, right? They’re willing to serve the god to get the goods, right? So it’s like they just see the goods. They just see the beautiful woman. They don’t care about the god. If they have to serve the god to get the beautiful woman, they’re like, yeah, whatever, I just want the beautiful woman. And I think that that’s what’s going on in a lot of this. It’s like they know that they can get massively rich and massively powerful by engaging in this behavior, and that’s what’s driving them, and they don’t necessarily totally understand or realize that they’re being duped as well. So that’s at least what I think, but who knows? Who knows how explicit some of this stuff is in those spheres? So AJ says, hey, Jonathan, I’ve heard you say a few times that we did not learn our lesson from World War II and that we’re headed not to, toward a not good place. My question is, can anything except a major catastrophe change our course? Because I want to believe that enough good art, enough powerful stories told from the right framework can make a difference, similar to how Jordan Peterson said the Gulag Archipelago helped bring down the Soviet Union. And so look, AJ, I think you’re right, and I think that that’s what we have to do, but I think there’s gonna be suffering. Like I can’t see any other way. And even with Solzhenitsyn, like, I mean, that didn’t come easy. That book didn’t come easy to him. That book cost him a chunk of his life and a chunk of his youth and a chunk of his energy and a lot of suffering. So it’s like, I agree, but I don’t think, I think there’s gonna be catastrophes. And so hopefully there’ll be enough good to at least have some arc there amidst that. All right, so Anjo Terpstra says, hey, Jonathan, you’ve told that the pattern of reality is so overwhelming that only saints can access it. What struck me in this phrasing was the connection between insight on the spiritual pattern and spiritual practice. Can you elaborate on this? To what extent does spiritual practice support these insights? I’m asking this because and probably more of your viewers engage with symbolism and the pattern of reality from a more didactical angle. Yes, most of my insights are derived from you. They are taught. So it affects my spiritual life. These insights are not derived from my spiritual life. How does spiritual practice or becoming more holy relate to insight on the pattern? What is your personal practical experience? And so I think your question is very good because the idea of spiritual practice is participation. And so like I talk about participation, but there’s a difference between talking about participation and actually engaging in participation. And so spiritual practice, whether it’s being part of a communion of saints, whether it’s attending services and then also the more personal spiritual practices like fasting, like praying, like the Jesus prayer, as you saw in the video and attention to your sins, attention to God, all of these spiritual practices, what they’ll do is that they’ll make the pattern part of you like you in the sense that you will be experiencing it and you will be transforming, you’ll be transformed so that then that will become the soup, like the thing you’re in. It’ll become like the world that you actually live in and not just something you think about. And so the idea that the saints see the world transfigured, that they look at the world, if you read St. Maxxon, it talks about reaching a spiritual state where when you’re experiencing reality, you always can see the will of God hidden in things. Like you can always see the spiritual, the logy, the spiritual realities or the spiritual reasons for things as you are engaging with them. And you also see that they’re not in contradiction, but not just see, but it’s like experience it. So yeah, so that’s the difference. And I think that it’s probably, I hope that it’s helpful to know it in terms of your mind so that you think it’s important enough to then engage in the spiritual practices that will bring you to live it, that will bring you to actually experience it and have it be more than just theory. All right, so Kevin Patterson says, sorry, I’m just looking at how many questions are left here. What time is it? 10.30, all right. So Kevin Patterson says, “‘To guard against evil looks on people wear evil eye talisman. To guard against adultery, people wear wedding bands, yes. Reminder to self, signal to others. What talisman can an unmarried person use to guard against promiscuous activity, both succumbing to it, warding off advances? I imagine such a talisman would also help a person lower their paranoid suspicion of predatory behaviors in others.” Well, wear a cross, dude. That’s probably what you should just do, just wear a cross. So take it seriously. Like if you wear a cross and you’re in a situation where you are gonna take your clothes off, but then you have to take your cross off or you see it and it’s there dangling in front of you, like hopefully if you’ve taken that cross seriously, it’ll be a reminder of where not to go. So that’s what I would say to do. So Ryan Pinkham says, “‘Does the Hail Mary have the same sort of structure as the Jesus Prayer?’ And so I would say, no. It’s not the same structure, but I would have to, I should probably make a video about that. I actually wouldn’t wanna go into that right now. It would be something that I would like to think about more profoundly and then talk about the words of the angel. It’s like, well, first of all, you can see the difference. Like Hail Mary is coming from above and it’s talking about that which is below, right? Because Hail Mary is spoken by the angel, Gabriel. And so, whereas the Jesus Prayer is talked about from below moving to above, if you understand that the Jesus Prayer is patterned on the public in prayer, that it’s like, God have mercy on me, a sinner, then it’s like above looking below, whereas the Hail Mary is strangely enough, like from the angel looking down upon the mystery of the space of revelation, you could say. All right. So Jason Gadowaltz asked, could you talk about discernment in relation to other virtues? Also, please make a video on numbers. You talk about discernment in relation to other virtues. I mean, I could talk about discernment in the sense that discernment is the capacity to identify things properly and that’s obviously very important. It’s actually very important to identify the origin of things, to know what they are truly. And so I think that that’s really important in terms of when you meet people and also when you encounter certain experiences, when you have feelings, to be able to name them properly. So you can understand something like discernment is something like the capacity to properly name things. And so definitely there’s a difference between discernment and other values because discernment is directly related to knowledge and to intelligence. So it’s a little different. All right, so Charlie Longoria says, what are your thoughts on the Bible project? I’ve been finding this channel extremely helpful in reading the scripture again after many years, especially the Old Testament. Yeah, I like a lot of the stuff they’re doing. I actually tried to have the main guy on my channel. I wrote them and asked them if he’d be willing to talk to me, but they said he wasn’t taking interviews, so I guess that’s not gonna happen. But I think they’re interesting. The most interesting thing about them is I feel like this is, oh, I hate when I always have to not, when I always have to criticize Protestantism, but one of the greatest, one of the greatest really fascinating thing that’s happening right now, and I’m excited about it, I’m really positive about it, is how several Protestants, whether it be the Bible project, whether it be, what’s his name, the Through New Eyes, James Jordan, and the, or there are several people that are seriously kind of seeing the patterns and are now noticing the patterns of scripture. And I feel like the Bible project is part of that. But there’s the thing that I think they’re missing is that they somehow don’t see how it’s the pattern of everything. Like they really, they see the pattern in scripture, and they do want to get, let’s say, some morals, some morality to it, but it feels like they don’t see how, how, like I said, it’s the pattern of everything. And so how it then, how you can use example, like I rarely hear these people give examples in common day, common experience of what the Bible is doing. And so that’s where I feel like they’re missing something. But maybe, like maybe I’m wrong, like I also don’t want to be, but I would love to talk to these people and see what they think of that. So King of Rat Kings, is it wise to say that story is akin to mathematics in as much as two plus two equals four is both true and real despite the fact that miracle qualities only manifest as a secondary property attached to a primary phenomenon available to the senses? And so, I mean, I would say, yes, it’s related to mathematics in the sense that it’s, that stories are related to, related to proportion, and they’re related to patterns. And so it’s like, just like mathematics is, is a display of, a pure display of patterns, in that same way, then stories are more, let’s say embodied display of patterns. So, all right, Don Palermo says, my community is riddled with a tendency in reaction to the idle machine of self-help culture expressed in organic food movement to instead celebrate being seriously indiscriminate about what we put into the body. Yeah, zero discrimination is supposedly the evidence of true liberation and faith. Well, that’s odd. I see truth in this tendency and something deeply bothers me. I consider the purpose of sustaining the body to host heaven and also the meaning to die purposefully. Maybe the blurring of the lines of the category for what is food is a uniquely modern issue. Is it relevant to my question, which I failed to clarify succinctly, that the Desert Fathers went without but did not do the opposite to put anything in? Yes, exactly. So I would say that there’s a difference between fasting and eating anything. Like, you know, there’s something, the idea that because it’s not important, like because, in the sense that because, because it’s more important to focus on spiritual things and all that, the idea that then you could just eat anything is absolutely stupid. Like, it’s stupid because eating is a passion. Like, eating is not just a fuel, right? And so it’s like you would have desires to eat things. And so the idea that you could just eat anything is also showing you that you just give in to your desires. Like, discipline in eating is actually a kind of, pointing to spiritual discipline. Like, that’s why there’s fasting in the church. And so the idea of not eating certain things and not eating all the time or not eating certain quantities is actually very important in order to tame your passions and to tame your body so that you’re able to not be focused on it. So someone who says something like, ah, you know, it’s only God that’s important. It doesn’t matter what you eat. It doesn’t matter if you eat something or you eat anything. You might realize that that person is more of a slave of what it is they’re eating that they would wish to admit to themselves. So yeah. All right. So Agar’s mom says, hi, Jonathan. How would you describe the difference between improvement of one’s psychological wellbeing versus deification of that person? Are they similar processes? Are they completely different? Do they have the same goals? Thanks. They don’t. Have the same goals. Take one of the problems of the idea of psychological wellbeing, the way we understand it today is that it’s… It actually sometimes is not helpful because we have this idea that, for example, I’ve talked about self-esteem before, the problem of self-esteem and the problem of seeing people as like little gods and thinking that you somehow have to attain a kind of happy state, right? It’s like you read the Church Fathers and they will tell you that it’s like this happy state that we kind of look for. And I mean, I’m guilty of that all the time. I’m not trying to, I don’t want to judge anybody, but that happy state that we’re going for, that that doesn’t lead to holiness at all. And the state of a saint is something more like a kind of ecstatic pain. No, I couldn’t say it that way. It’s more like something like a kind of living in a kind of sorrow for your sins, which is also filled with a kind of joy of being connected to God. And so it’s actually quite self-deprecatory. Like it’s actually quite seeing yourself as nothing, really, and then being connected to God. But then the thing about that is that what happens to people who really see themselves as nothing isn’t low self-esteem. It’s actually a healthier kind of, it actually will end up manifesting itself as a kind of full use of your capacities and a true use of your capacities and not a delusion, not the disappointment of not accomplishing things because you think you’re better than what you are. Like that kind of problem of the kind of psychological wellbeing thing. So yeah, and I say that, but I’m all in that world. Like I’m not aesthetic. I try to have a comfortable lifestyle and I, you know, and so it’s like, I want to be careful, but it’s not the same as deification, that’s for sure. The road of deification is a harsher one. All right, so what, Jacobus Rodanius says, what is the symbolism of volcanoes? Could they be pointless mountains representing pride? E.g. pride taken over Pompeii, or topless hierarchies erupting open doors to deadly chaos. And to be interesting, I really haven’t thought about volcanoes so much. They definitely have something to do with like, you know, the lower fires, like erupting, you know, and causing chaos into the world. So maybe you could understand something like volcanoes, something like a revolution. Maybe that’d be a good way to understand it. And that’s why it also appears as like a mountain, but then this mountain like spews out this like, this lower fire. I don’t know, I haven’t thought about it. I should think about it more before I speak. All right, so, Ari Fisher asks, hi, Jonathan, sorry, this is a question that we escaped for YouTube. I’m curious about your thoughts on the symbolism of the relationship between Christianity and Islam. I was very interested to read in Dominion about how the Muslims consider themselves the descendants of Ishmael, and also how Tom described Islam as a kind of wedge that was driven between East and West Christendom. Yeah, contributing to the schism of the West. So, I’m curious about your thoughts on that. Contributing to the schism. What do you think? Is there some hostile brothers things going on there? Well, let’s just say this, like the early Christians, the early Christians over there in the beginning of Islam saw Islam as a Christian heresy. That’s how St. John the Damascene, St. John of Damascus saw Islam. And in terms of history, that is absolutely true. Our knowledge of history and our understanding of history in terms of Islam is so twisted by the Enlightenment. It is so twisted by the Enlightenment because the Enlightenment tried to use the Crusades as a bludgeon to smash over the head of Christianity. And so in doing that, and also because there’s also because after the split between East and West, the West wanted to portray itself as this like kind of all powerful thing, especially in the Enlightenment too. Like in the Enlightenment wanted to erase Constantinople, like just erase its memory as if it never existed because it’s embarrassing to think about Constantinople when your purpose is to bash how dark the ages were before because then what do you do with Constantinople that was this glorious city, until things started to fall apart when the Islamic invasion started to happen. And so, yeah, it’s like, if you think about it just practically, like Islam basically surrounded Christianity and then made it difficult for everything to happen, like for communication to happen, for trade to happen between the different aspects of the Christian world. And so it’s like, yeah, that’s one of the things that happened. All right, so Benjamin Kincaid says, I recently listened to your conversation with Dr. Paula Bottington on the ethics and narratives surrounding AI. I’m wondering if you have any advice for those currently working in tech, what can we do to help steer things in a direction that’s good? Pray, like pray a lot. Oh man, that’s like, I feel like just some pastor that’s giving generic advice, but I would say that to be, I would say that if, to be attentive, to be attentive to your actions, to your intentions, to be attentive to the reason why you’re doing things and to pray. And so, I would say that, and to pray. And so, because it’s not gonna be easy. It’s gonna get, all of this is gonna get worse. It’s gonna get very difficult. So, yeah, I don’t know, man. I mean, I don’t think tech is bad, okay? I think tech is good. I think ultimately it can be, it can serve the good, but I think that it’s definitely not looking, it’s not looking bright, at least. But look, I mean, here you guys are, listening to what I’m saying because of tech. So, it’s like, I don’t want to be the guy knocking tech, because obviously it has increased power. It has increased the power of reach that anybody can have. And so, it has, definitely has, definitely has value. But for sure, AI is, yeah, it’s scary. So, yeah. But the one thing I wanted to say, because I kind of went with the question about Islam. It doesn’t change that there are some, like within, let’s say Islamic art, there are some amazing things that were done. And that if I read some, I’ve read some Islamic writers that have a very powerful understanding of reality. And so, I always kind of talk about how, I think that as Christians, it’s good to be capable of seeing the sparks of light, which are in the surroundings. But just be careful to not, let’s say, to not make them your own, in the sense that you’re able to notice the places where there’s light in other cultures, in other religions, in other ancient myths, in weird, weird places. And so, but it’s also about being able to kind of see that without then throwing up your own world into the air and saying, okay, well, it’s all the same then. Let’s all just do whatever, and let’s just all be universalist, because that leads to nothing, it leads to porridge. And so, yeah, so maybe that’s the last thing I could say about that. All right, guys, and so, yeah, those were all the questions, and it’s 10 to 11, but I will go into the super chats and let’s see. I never have them ready, because I never think about this. All right, so I’m not following the chat, for some reason I wasn’t going down there. All right, so here we go. All right, so Louis Durand for 5 US asks, what does the burning bush of Exodus symbolize? And so that’s a complicated question, but you could, an easy way to understand it is that God manifesting himself in the world while letting the multiplicity of the world continue to exist, right? So that’s the best way to understand it. It’s like the mystery of how God can manifest himself without destroying the particularities, right? That unity can manifest itself without destroying particularities. That’s what the burning bush is about. And it reached its culmination in the perpetual virginity of the virgin, which remains completely untouched and is not never taken up, but nonetheless becomes the place and the body for the divine logos, all right? So the golden threads for 5, given your fluency in multiple languages, that the cosmos manifests itself differently to you according to which logos you’re thinking, speaking in. I mean, I don’t know that many languages. I know two and a half, I would say. And so, there definitely is a difference, right, in terms of the manifestation. It’s actually helpful to know several languages because it helps you to see how the meanings of things, they kind of point up also above the language. And so, it can help you see how the way of meaning embodies itself, definitely affects how you relate to the world. But it also can help you see that they point above, they point beyond themselves, you know. All right. So Luca Irimadze for 4.99. US says, are you still taking questions? And so, I guess I am. Not anymore, like I’m stopped now. So, no more questions. And get through these and then we’re done. So, Brandon Samuel for 20, I guess from Brazil, hugs from Brazil. Try to know the work of Italo Marsili, his work here in Brazil is revolutionizing Christianity, who Jordan Peterson was for the English world, he is for the Latin world. I will check him out, I’ve never heard of him. All right, so my brother and I are on good terms, he’s struggling with being happy in life, I’m figuring out how to, I don’t know how to communicate how I’m doing it, and word he’d balk at straightforward advice, any insights, thanks. That is, so natural phenomenon, that question is extremely vague, and I’m sorry, I don’t know how to answer that because I don’t know, like I don’t know enough about your brother and I don’t know enough about, I don’t know, like I, obviously if you don’t have authority in someone’s life, it’s probably a good idea not to give people advice, that is for sure because it rarely will be taken well, give advice to people who trust you and who see you as having authority, that’s the best way to give advice, if not then become that person, become that person that your brother sees as someone to look up to or to have as authority, and therefore you’ll avoid that problem, so it’s an easy, I’m giving you an easy answer, but obviously I know these personal things are difficult to deal with. All right, so Bastion for 699, Canadian is the symbol of the eye, looking at the viewer often in clusters as a symbol of an impressive force, an example of rejecting God by those authors, looking at the viewer often, so I’m not sure I understand that question, Bastion, symbol of the eye looking at the viewer often in clusters, that’s a symbol of an impressive force, I’m sorry Bastion, I don’t totally understand your question, so I can’t answer it, all right, so Brandon Samuel says, also Joseph Campbell said, the story of the grail knight is the basis of Western individualism, thoughts? Nah, I don’t think that’s, I don’t like that, I don’t like that very much at all, I think that the, so there’s a difference between, so I understand why he would say that, he says that because the people, because the knights who seek the grail, they all go in their different directions, so it’s like they kind of see the grail where they see it, so the grail actually manifest, would manifest itself to them, right, kind of where they are, and so I understand what he’s trying to refer to, but I would say that it’s more a way of understanding that, let’s say the glory of God, or the presence of God descends into the particular, and that it can manifest itself in all places, right, it’s hidden in the world, like so the sparks of God are hidden in reality and can be encountered where you can encounter them, right, it can be encountered in the places where you’re capable of encountering them, but that grail is nonetheless a chalice of communion, and so finding the grail should bring you in communion with the others and should become kind of bridge towards other people and it kind of bridge towards a place where you come together, and so I don’t agree, I don’t agree that the grail is the beginning of Western individualism. All right, so Exodus for $5 US asks, which books would you recommend for a 10-year-old? Which books would you recommend for a 10-year-old? I mean, I would say Narnia, and so obviously that’s an easy one, but there are other good stories, like 19th century stories are some good stories, like I think that the Jungle Book is nonetheless good, and fairy tales at 10 years old, you can still have kind of more complex versions of fairy tales. Yeah, that’s what I would say. So symbolic memes says, hello, Jonathan, can we go to sleep now? You are allowed to go to sleep symbolic memes, as long as you promise to continue making funny memes on symbolism. All right, Shabar, we stop, people keep putting in some super chats. All right, Mike Zasek says, do good stories intentionally embrace archetype and patterns of reality as they’re being written, or are they more subconsciously incorporated? I would say that they, I would say to be careful to be explicit, I always tell people like study symbolism, and then if you’re writing a story, don’t think about symbolism when you’re writing it. You have to, it has to kind of come out, and then you can edit it later, and you can look at it, what you wrote later, and then see whether or not you can tweak a few things. But if you try to think about archetypes and symbolism, when you’re writing a story, you’re not gonna succeed, it’s gonna come out horrible. All right, okay, so I am gonna go guys, so thanks for everybody popping in. We’re at two hours and 15 minutes. For some reason, I’m getting more stamina as I’m doing these videos. And so, all right, so thanks everybody for your, so Mike Zasek says, oh my gosh, you’re like the first human being that’s ever gotten my last name right on the first try. Interesting, all right, so good night everybody, it was a lot of fun. And so, yeah, so check out the podcast with Jordan tomorrow on YouTube, so share it, comment. We need positive comments in there because there’s bound to be, there’s gonna be some negative comments in there. So it was good to talk to everybody. Thanks to all the moderators, to Brad. And I think, yeah, Lisa’s there, she’s still awake at this late time for her. And so I appreciate everybody. Sorry to other people whose questions I was struggling to answer. And sign up to the website, like I said, so we can avoid censorship. And so I will talk to everybody very soon. All right, let me, I need to get on here to stop it. So, all right, bye everybody.