School-Kids as Factory Products ｜ Zach Lahn ｜ EP 370 (5umJbXekS8k)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=5umJbXekS8k

And so when my first son was born, I had a call from an uncle and he said to me, hey, congratulations, I sold the hospital. And as a joke, he said, well, now you need to start thinking about schools. And so when my son was born, and I heard that question from my uncle, I thought, I don’t care what I have to do if I have to move somewhere or start something, or whatever it may be, I’m not going to put my children into a system that doesn’t understand the gifts and abilities they have just because they don’t fit on the conveyor belt. Hello, everyone watching and listening. Today, I’m speaking with Zach Lane, the co-founder of Wonder, a Socratic-based school system, K-12, in Wichita, Kansas. It’s a follow-up to a discussion I had with Jeff Sandifer, who’s an innovator on the educational front for K-12. And I wanted to talk to Zach today about the details of the educational process so that parents and other people interested in childhood education could understand more thoroughly the mechanics of the process. First of all, I have holes in my memory because I was ill for a while, and I don’t remember how we met. We met through Jeff, eh? Actually, it was the opposite. Oh, okay. I was working in education and became a listener to a lot of what you were doing and a follower in some ways. And then you had explained how you had so much interest in revolutionizing education in various different ways. And so with that, I reached out to you. I sent a cold email to you, and we met Father’s Day, maybe 2018 in Minneapolis. And we sat down and we talked about education. And from there, it sort of spurred into this, hey, we’re very aligned. We have similar interests, and we’re wanting to see similar change. And from that, then introduced you to Jeff, and we started kind of working with the Acton MBA, the Acton Academy. And that’s how it all started. I see. I see. Now, so you’re deeply involved in educational transformation. You have a school, and you’re going to be taking over the Acton program at some point in the future. Well, we’re taking a leadership role in the Acton program, for sure. Our school, we have an independent decentralized network, is what I would say, of schools. And our school is called Wonder. Okay. And who’s we? So I would say, well, my wife and I co-founded our school. And so that’s when I say we, that’s usually who I’m talking about. Well, we founded Wonder. And the process for me was, Acton wasn’t actually the first place I looked. This whole thing started for me out of necessity. And the reason was, when I was a young kid, I didn’t fit in the box. I had too much energy. I was probably too enterprising. My parents and principal didn’t know what to do with me. I can remember a parent-teacher conference when my principal, who was a teacher at the time, told my parents, if I was ever stuck on a desert island, I’d want to be with Zach, because he’d find a way off. But that wasn’t necessarily a good thing. It’s sort of like, how do we solve that problem? And so when my first son was born, I had a call from an uncle, and he said to me, hey, congratulations, I was still at the hospital. And as a joke, he said, well, now you need to start thinking about schools. And I’d spent my entire life trying to get out of school, basically just wanting to be done with education, get into the world, get into business, or whatever it might be. And when he said that, it was one of those times that something strikes you. And that struck me, and I hadn’t thought about it. And so that kicked off what was about a five or six year journey, which was traveling the country, visiting schools, I probably visited over 70 schools around the country and in other countries as well. And one of those was Acton Academy. And so that’s how I got connected there. So what did you see when you went and saw all these schools? So mostly it was this. There was varying flavors or the attempt to put a different screen over what was essentially the same model. Almost all of them were the same direct instruction model that we see. Teachers at the front of the classroom, lecturing to students, students in desks all day, and days broken up by periods. Now, some were working more in in vocational skills. There were some that were helping young people learn the trades and things like that. Great. Others were quite innovative. There were some, we worked with a school on the campus of MIT that was for middle school, high schoolers. That was quite innovative. They were very hands-on, very project-oriented, very project-driven. But what I noticed is that it was still something that was ultimately led by adults. And so that seemed to be the trend. Everywhere went, no matter how innovative the school was. So the basic model that you perceived was teacher in the front of the room, rows of desks, regimented periods, the children as absorbing knowledge, essentially. Knowledge as something delivered as factual. You saw a lot of variations on that, but no fundamental transformation. Oh, yeah. Variations on that, also variations on socioeconomic status within the school. That was something because when many people think about school, they think public and private. What they don’t understand is 99% of those schools operate the exact same way. Just what you described. One teacher at the front of the classroom and students listening, trying to absorb, taking notes, and not being necessarily engaged in hands on learning or taking ownership over their own learning. Yeah, well, it’s an interesting model. It’s an interesting epistemological model because it presumes that the most appropriate knowledge, the most necessary form of knowledge that children will gain is factual and descriptive, that it’s semantic. It can be transmitted through words, that it’s memorization predicated, that it comes from a central authority, that the children should be socialized to sit immobile, essentially, and listen passively rather than actively, that they should do that in a group, that they should be regimented in time. So you might say contrary to that, well, children should be actively engaged in exploring, they should be questioning, they should be moving around. There’s no necessary reason for that regimentation. They should be developing their own vision. The enterprises could be project focused and that education should be much more about the acquisition of skill rather than the acquisition of regurgitatable knowledge. That’s a few transformations that you might consider. And so, okay, but you said that while you were investigating all these schools, you came across the Acton Academy and what made it stand out in your mind? Well, all the things that you just mentioned are all what I would call, there’s some about the process that you go through within the school and much about the content that you’re going to absorb in the school or that you’re engaging with. What I think that we need to step back and look at is that when we’re talking about different schools, what we look at is not so much the content, the academic content. We know largely what young people should be engaged in as far as the basics. We know that. What we talk about is a system. And what I mean by this is, let me give you an anecdote. I’ve probably talked to over a thousand parents at this point about our school, about what they want from education for their child. And one question I always ask is, what do you dream your child will be able to do when they’re 18 or when they leave the house? And without exception, I do not get an academic answer. I do not get, I hope they can do complex math. I hope that they’ve mastered calculus. I hope that I don’t get academic answers. What I get, especially the younger the child is, is I hope they can go out into the world with courage. I hope they can know how to be… Right. Well, yeah, work well with other people. One of the things I did touch on in that list of alternatives was character development, moral character development, and motivation. Right. And so, all right, so the parents have a vision that’s more aligned with that. They want their child to be of good character and to be able to go out into the world forthrightly. And so, what do you make of that when you hear parents tell you that? Well, what I make of it is that almost all parents want that. However, when you try to marry the idea of the traditional school with what I would say parents are actually asking for is agency. They want their child to have agency over their life, which is having the power and resources to fulfill their potential, something like that. And so, when I look at the traditional model, you look at it’s predicated on compliance. It’s predicated on control, permission to speak, permission to move about, permission to work with others. What I say is those two things don’t marry. You can’t put your child in a system like that and expect that they will fulfill this potential of agency within that. Because those are some of the most formidable years of your life. You think three to 12, especially from the development of the brain. You’re learning what system you’re within and how to operate within that system. And Jordan, it’s actually quite a conundrum for people, especially with conservative beliefs, because we say, hey, this is what we want. We talk about it at home. We talk about agency and freedom and responsibility. And yet, we send our children to a school that doesn’t advocate for any of those. Yeah, well, I did some background research into the origin of the public school system, partly because I developed these programs, the self-authoring programs. And one of them is an exercise that helps people develop a vision for the future. And I implemented that with my university students first. And so it asks them to imagine their lives five years down the road. They could have, if they could have what they needed and wanted, assuming they were taking care of themselves properly, what might their life look like? They write about that for 15 minutes and then they write about the hell they could produce around themselves for in five years if they let their bad habits take the upper hand. And then they go through seven major domains of their life and write out a vision and a strategy for that. So it’s intimate relationship and family, friendship, career, resistance to temptations like alcohol and drug abuse, use of time outside of work, let’s say productive and generous use of time outside of work, and care of themselves physically and mentally. We’re going to add civic responsibility to that list. And so it’s an attempt to help people derive, create a differentiated vision of what their life could be like and who they could be. And also to conceptualize themselves as the sort of person who can derive a vision. And I used that in my classes for years and I conducted three research studies using that program. And we showed that if you had students do that exercise for 90 minutes in their orientation session before they went to trade school, they were 50% less likely to drop out, which is like an absolutely staggering result. And their grade point averages of students already enrolled went up 35%. Right. Which is crazy, right? For 90 minutes. But the crazy thing, really crazy thing was as far as I was concerned, and it took me probably a year or two of thinking to really notice this was that, well, this isn’t rocket surgery, as a ridiculous Canadian comedian would put it, right? Of course, people should have a vision for their life. You talked about character development, moral developments, like, well, that’s what parents want for their children. We would like our children, we would like those, we love to be active, engaged, moral agents, aiming upward. And yet, we do nothing whatsoever in the school system to foster that ever, even once, even for one day. So my students, having, despite having gone through 14 years of education and being top of the class, all things considered, because the University of Toronto was a fairly selective school, no one had ever asked them to do an exercise like that. And that, the more I thought about that, the more I was dumbfounded by it. And then I did some investigation into the derivation of the American, North American, European, for that matter, public education system and found out that it was based on the Prussian model. And the Prussians produced a universal education system in the late 1800s, because they were afraid they were losing military superiority and they wanted to produce a cadre of mindless, obedient soldiers. That was expressly the purpose. And then that model was adopted by prototypical fascists in the US, again in the late 1800s, this is before Mussolini and all of that time, corporate types mostly, who wanted to produce cadres of obedient workers. And that’s why the desks are in rows, and that’s why there’s factory bells, and that’s why it’s top-down leadership. But what was really stunning about that wasn’t only that that was the model, but it’s worse than that because the people who built the schools were consciously aiming at eradicating the will of the students who were part of the system because they wanted them to be obedient. Now, we did need we. There was a demand for factory workers at the time, and there were a lot of rural people flooding into the cities, and no one really knew what to do with the kids because they didn’t have farm work. And there was some need for an education system, and there was some utility in producing people who knew how to abide by a clock and who could therefore take on factory jobs. But that as a model, especially now in the modern world where things change so quickly that you can hardly keep up and people have to be dynamic, and that sort of nine-to-five lifetime factory work is maybe, well, it’s a dream of the past in some ways, even though it might not have been that desirable to begin with. It certainly has nothing to do with the way people live now. But, well, the education system hasn’t changed, except perhaps for the worst in 150 years. It’s just, it’s absolutely jaw-dropping that the fact that this is all the case. Okay, so you saw in the act in schools, you saw a completely different model. Walk us through that. I don’t even understand what a school day would look like in a decentralized system. I went to London, I saw Kate Birbalsing School, the McKayla School, and she’s taken that teacher-dominant, let’s say, teacher authority, student listening model to its ultimate degree. I mean, she’s very, very good at it. The teachers are handing out information at a rate that’s absolutely staggering, and the kids are awake and listening, although they’re responding a lot. They have an opportunity to talk to each other that’s structured, and they do a lot of responses to the teachers, so they’re really engaged. I can see that a model like that can work. There may be a variety of models that would work for kids, but your model is very different. What would a child experience, what would a classroom, do you have classrooms, what would a classroom look like? What would a typical classroom look like? What’s the typical experience of a child in a school like yours? I think you have to start with understanding the role of the adult in the classroom. When you understand that in today’s age, with the tools we have available to us and the systems that we use, we do not have a need for an adult to be the transmitter of content knowledge to a child. In elementary, middle school, high school, we’ve proven that. We know that it’s been going on for over a decade. At our school, young people are broken up into different ages. It’s not a monoculture that exists nowhere in nature. You don’t ever see a buffalo only with one set of ages roaming the plains. We have varying studios that somewhat line up with what you say like lower elementary, upper elementary. Some of this comes as well from an understanding of what Maria Montessori has done and did. A lot of that has withstood the test of time. Really quickly, to digress for a second, what you mentioned about 1894, the gang of nine got together, I think it was, and decided, this is what people should learn, physics, biology, chemistry, and this is how they should learn. That largely has not changed at all. But it’s important to know, at that same time, there was a debate being waged about how young people should be educated. Some of these models like Montessori, even the first idea of kindergarten, things like that, those came out of those similar times. But this one took root and took hold because it had maybe utility in the moment, but has stayed largely unchanged. I don’t think anybody could argue that’s not to the detriment of the generations that have come before. One of the things I hear often is, well, I went to a school like this and I turned out fine. Well, first of all, no, you probably didn’t. Is it the thing that we’re doing to say we want to institutionalize the limit of potential, of reaching potential? It’s not did you do fine, it’s what could you have done if people knew, saw, and understood the gifts and abilities that you could bring to the world. So if you’re in our school, you’ll see a school that’s not run by adults. How many students about? So we could have one studio, say elementary studio, that has maybe 30 learners and one adult. And that’s a good thing. The more adults that get into the classroom, we say, the worse the experience gets. And that’s for kids how old, that ratio? That’s about six and a half to around 11. Okay, so you have 30 kids from six and a half to 11 in one room. Yep. And there’s one adult in there. Yes. Okay, what’s the adult doing? So the adult is what we call a Socratic facilitator. So they’re operating in an inquiry based fashion. Primarily what they do is we launch every day with a Socratic discussion. And that’s where we put young people in the shoes of a hero facing a tough decision or dilemma. And then we provide two choices, A, B choices, or maybe more that are opposed, very opposed to each other. But both could be seen as equally acceptable answers. And then that facilitator, their job is to allow the young people to engage in a discussion and a debate. We do this for 15 minutes every morning. And that’s how things start. That’s how everyday launches our way. It launches intentionally, which is I think something we can talk about too, is that a bell ringing to start a day is not an intentional launch. Right. It’s a forced launch. Yes. And so with us, what we do is we say, hey, we’re here. Maybe the studio is facing something like there’s a lack of respect or something like that, or they’re upcoming to an exhibition that we hold. I’ll talk about those. And it’s like crunch time. So we’ll put them in the shoes of a hero, usually a real hero from history that faced a similar situation with high stakes, discuss and debate. And then- And there’s two sides to the argument. Oh, yes. There’s always two sides to the argument. And all the kids from six and a half to 11 participate. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, in my graduate seminar, what I used to do, as I learned how to run seminars rather than lecturing, because I liked to lecture, and that worked well for me, I would assign a paper to students. They would read it in class, because often they wouldn’t read it. They’d say they read it, but they wouldn’t have. So they’d read it in class. And then we would derive alternative standpoints from the paper to opposing viewpoints. And I would assign a viewpoint to to one group of four, another group of four. It was usually 16 kids in the class. The other two groups would evaluate and grade and provide feedback. And then we’d go around the room. And I assigned it arbitrarily. And the goal was to form a group of four and to lay out your argument, and then to conduct something approximating a debate with the other team. And it was really useful for the students. It was engaging for them. And they had a chance to lay out their argument. And to make it publicly. And to learn how to speak publicly. But also to learn that, because the sides, so to speak, were assigned arbitrarily, they learned how to understand that there was many things to be said on multiple sides of an argument, right? And then to really put that in place. And that was a very effective model. And so you’re doing something like that in the first 15 minutes. First 15 minutes every day. And these are- Why is that the first thing the kids do? Well, I think, well, one, it’s an intentional way to start the day. But I think you have to back up and understand that something I like to say to parents is that, look, young people are embedded in a story and a narrative. They wake up every day in a story. And so we as parents, and I think as adults, we should just be very thankful. We get to be a part of the story. It’s so much fun to be a part of the story. And so when we talk about entering into our school, there’s this idea in game making about the magic circle. The magic circle is essentially, you enter a place. And when you enter that place, the world changes. It’s that world. And so our world at the school, we are heavily embedded in stories and narratives. The hero’s journey is something that really is tagging and cataloging the way we operate the school. That you’re a young person on a journey to find your calling and change the world. And that’s a true calling on your life. And the world needs something of you. And so what we’re doing in these Socratic discussions is really embedding them in story because, you know, can I digress here just for a second? Hey, digress away. So we talk about the idea of building character or a moral education. And I think that’s somewhat of a misnomer because number one, parents are the primary people that should be helping to impart moral education on children. But in what role does a school have? So it’s actually very interesting. If you look at the work of Martin Buber, he talked about in his essay, the education of character. He talked about this idea how he would try to teach character lessons in a classroom. And he would actually say the opposite would have the effect. It would be that he would talk about how you shouldn’t lie. And then he’d get an essay from a person in the class that was the biggest person that would not tell the truth about how you shouldn’t lie. Right, right. He talked about how you shouldn’t bully the weak and you get the strong one snickering. He’d say how you can’t teach ethics in an ethics class. You teach ethics and morals in a number of ways, experience, relation to others, but also stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so embedding young people in stories from the start, in the start of the day, to let them know you’re here on an important journey. And there’s going to be a right and a wrong in the way that you operate. And it’s not always that we’re doing a discussion like that, but often it can be. How do we treat other people? How do we act with respect? And what do you see when you watch the kids engage in this debate? You have kids from six and a half, you said, to 11. So what would an observer see if he or she was watching this interaction? Oh, this, you know, actually I have a great story to share. Akir of the Dawn, who we both know, he came and visited our school and his son Hercules sat in on some Socratic launches with us. And I brought, Akira came back to the office. We did this big show with him, with Learners, and he was a DJ, a world-class example that we brought in, and he was so gracious to come work with us. After, Akira went and observed a launch with his son in it. And he came back and I said, hey, what’d you think? And he said, it brought a tear to my eye to think that these young people can treat each other with such respect and that they can disagree so politely and that they can have their views heard and understood. Why don’t the 11-year-olds dominate the six and a half year olds? Often they do in the sense of they discuss more, they’ll verbalize more. However, if you have been a six and a half year old that’s been in that position and you’ve grown up in the system, you understand that it’s to your advantage to help make sure the younger ones have their voice heard as well. And so what you’ll see if you observe a Socratic discussion at Wonder is, one, we start off with a polarizing topic, two different choices that is embedding them in a story. But we follow what’s called the rules of just conduct. And those rules of just conduct, how do we operate in Socratic discussion? So the discussion leader might say, hey, which rule of just conduct do we want to focus on today? And it might be listening with our whole body. So it’s like, and then they’ll hold each other accountable throughout the discussion to say, hey, remember, we promised to listen with our whole body. What does that mean? It means that they’re not turning around or they’re not, you know, they’re paying attention. They’re paying attention. And how do they call each other out on that without that becoming bullying or dominating? It’s see, those are I think what you’ll find is those types of things are a product of a different type of environment. When you’re in an environment that’s based on mutual accountability, and based on peer to peer learning, and you’re building a tribe, you see people within the tribe as like not as an enemy or somebody that’s competing with you, but somebody that you’re trying to help the whole tribe move up. And that’s what we do see. Now, I tell parents all the time, hey, when you have a child that’s six and a half or seven, just entering into the elementary environment, like in there in a Socratic discussion, they’re, they’re absorbers. They’re observing and absorbing information. It’s one of the best ways they learn how to interact in one of those discussions by watching a 10 year old or 11 year old in those discussions. The leading cause for death among infants in the US and the world is abortion. Sadly, with the abortion pill accounting for over 50% of all abortions, babies lives are at an even greater risk. In the midst of this awful tragedy, we can do something about it. Thanks to our new partners at preborns network of clinics, preborn clinics stand strong, offering love, support and compassion to hurting women, helping them to make the right choice. By letting a woman see her baby with a free ultrasound and hear the heartbeat, a baby’s chance at life is doubled. 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}sactuallyavisionratherthansomethingthatteachersonlydreamthekidswant.I^{\prime }llsayyes,buther{e}^{\prime }swhatIsayaboutthat.Ithinkitalsocomeswithcognitivedevelopmentastheymoveawayfromsocialbeingtheworkthattheydo.Causeyoungeroneslovetoplayandtheylovetobeinsocialgroupswithotherpeople.Schoolworkisnotthatimportanttothem.Andifi{t}^{\prime }sgamified,whichwedo,theylovedoingit.Butastheygetolder,whathappensistheyseetheirpeersmovingfromonestudiototheother.Andthentheystarttotakeonworkastheirwork,sotospeak.Liketheyreallywanttolikeaccomplishthisthingtoreachthisnextlevel.Andthenyes,i{t}^{\prime }sariteofpassage.Theyseethat.Weseethisdevelopmenthappen.Youknow,ifyo{u}^{\prime }resix,seven,eightyearold,alotofyourworkissocialandalotofit,andtha{t}^{\prime }swhatitshouldberatherthanjustacademicpushing,pushingacademicworkontoayoungperson.Andthiskindofgoesbacktothestructureofhowweoperate.And{I}^{\prime }lldigressalittlebithereislook,partofwhatgotmeinterestedindoingthisinthefirstplacewasthatIdid{n}^{\prime }tbelievethatyoungpeopleshouldbeinadeskforsevenhoursaday.Idid{n}^{\prime }tfitinthat,thatatall.AndsowhenmysonwasbornandIheardthatquestionfrommyuncle,Ithought,Ido{n}^{\prime }tcarewhatIhavetodoifIhavetomovesomewhereorstartsomethingorwhateveritmaybe.I^{\prime }mnotgoingtoputmychildrenintoasystemthatdoes{n}^{\prime }tunderstandthegiftsandabilitiesIhavejustbecausetheydo{n}^{\prime }tfitontheconveyorbelt.Andsoatourschool,whenyoulookatthat,youngpeoplehavethefreedomtoworkwiththeirpeers.Theyhavethefreedomtochoosetheworkthatthe{y}^{\prime }dliketodo.Also,theyhavethefreedomtobedistractedaslongasthe{y}^{\prime }renotdistractingotherpeople.Theycanexittheroomforawhileiftheyneedtobedistracted.AndIthinkther{e}^{\prime }sthiswholeideaineducation,intheelementaryespecially,ofyoungpeoplearesodistractable.Well,i{t}^{\prime }slikew{e}^{\prime }rethinkingthat,okay,wedo{n}^{\prime }tunderstandthattheprefrontalcortexhasaprotractedmaturation.Youca{n}^{\prime }tforcedevelopmentinthatway.The{y}^{\prime }redistractableifthe{y}^{\prime }reboredstiff.Yes.Youknow,kidscanconcentrateonsomethingforaverylongperiodoftimeifthe{y}^{\prime }reinterestedinit.Absolutely.Sothedistractability,andthisisthecaseforhumanbeingsmoregenerally,isifyouseeapronouncedtrendacrossanumberofpeople,thefirstthingtopresumeisther{e}^{\prime }ssomethingsituationaldrivingitratherthansomethingtemperamental.Andsoyoumightsay,well,littlekidsaredistractable.I{t}^{\prime }swell,maybei{t}^{\prime }sbecausethe{y}^{\prime }reboredtodeathintheconventionalclassroom.AndIwouldsaytha{t}^{\prime }sparticularlytrueofactiveboys.Okay.Sow{e}^{\prime }vetalkedalittlebitaboutsquads,andw{e}^{\prime }vetalkedalittlebitaboutstudios.Youstartedtalkingaboutwhathappensfirstthinginthemorning.Okay.Sothekidshaveadiscussionandthe{y}^{\prime }retryingtoironoutacomplexmoralconundrum.Andthe{y}^{\prime }redoingthatasaconsequenceofSocraticdialogue.Andther{e}^{\prime }sanagegraded,orwhat,ther{e}^{\prime }sagroupofkidsthatspansquiteanage.Andtheolderkidshelpleadtheyoungerkidsandtheytakeresponsibilityforit.Andthelittlekidshavesomethingtolookforwardtoastheygrowup.Andsotha{t}^{\prime }sthefirst15minutesofclass.Sowhathappensnext?Le{t}^{\prime }scontinuewalkingthroughtheday.WebreaktheSocraticdiscussion.Andthenthescheduleispostedontheboard.Sother{e}^{\prime }sdifferentleversofcontrol,aswesay,thingsthattheguideshavecontroloverandthingsthelearnershavecontrolover.Soweputascheduleout,butw{e}^{\prime }renotinchargeofenforcingtheadherencetothatschedule.Theymutuallyenforcethat.Sothenextthingyo{u}^{\prime }dwalkintoiscoreskills.OnMondays,weopenthedaywithameetingwiththementor.Soeachyoungpersoninelementaryhasamentorfromthemiddleorhighschooltha{t}^{\prime }sbeenelectedbasedonkindofexemplifyingsomeofthetraitsthatitmeanstobeatwonder.AndsoonMonday,theyhaveameetingwiththatmentor.Andthatmentorisaskingquestionslike,hey,whatgotyoumostexcitedlastweek?Whatwereyoureallyproudofaccomplishing?Whatdoyouhopetoaccomplishthisweek?Arethereanysocialdynamicsorthingslikethatgoingonthatlikethatwecantalkabout?Thingslikethat.Sotheyhave-Andhowoldarethementors?The{y}^{\prime }re,gosh,from12to16rightnow.Sothe{y}^{\prime }reprettyyoung,oldenoughtodothis,butprettyyoung.Andyourexperienceisthattheydoacrediblejobatthat?Theydoanincrediblejobatthat.I{t}^{\prime }sthatone,theyuseasystem.Sothe{y}^{\prime }vegottentogetherasw{e}^{\prime }veputthismentorprogramtogether.The{y}^{\prime }vegottentogethertosay,whatarethequestionsweshouldask?The{y}^{\prime }vegottogethertofigurethisout.The{y}^{\prime }llrunthosethingsbyus,butunlessweseesomeglaringissue,whichwedo{n}^{\prime }t,becauseevenifwesawanissue,w{e}^{\prime }dlikethemtotestitandcometothatdeterminationontheirown.Right.Yeah.Soyeah,the{y}^{\prime }llmeetwiththementoronMonday.Oneonone?Oneonone.Andthentheybreakafterthatmentormeeting.Howlongisthemeeting?I{t}^{\prime }susually10to15minutes.Tha{t}^{\prime }sit.Andtheydothatonceeveryweekwiththementor?Everyweek.Andi{t}^{\prime }ssettingyoureyestothehorizon.Whatareyouheretoaccomplish?Whatwouldyouliketodothisweek?AndIoftentellparentsthatgoalsettingisaninterestingthingbecauseatageseven,thepropertimehorizonforagoalislikelythisafternoon.Yeah,right.Well,tha{t}^{\prime }sworthdrivinghome.Theyoungerthekid,theshorterthefuturetimehorizon.Yes.Andthenwewatchedthismoveupwhenyo{u}^{\prime }reenteringmiddleschool.Theycanaccuratelyplantheirentireyear.WhatdoIwanttoaccomplishinreading,writingmath,quests,thingslikethatfortheyear?Anditstarts-Yourkidscandothat.Yes.Itstartsbecausewestartinstitutingthisideaof,hey,w{e}^{\prime }reheretoaccomplishsomething.Andwhatisthatthingw{e}^{\prime }dliketoaccomplish?Andthementorsreally-Iwonderhowtighttherelationshipisbetweenprefrontalcorticalmaturationandlengthoftimehorizon.Ibeti{t}^{\prime }sprettytight.Well,i{t}^{\prime }scomplex,right?Tocalculateyourselfacrossanexpandinghorizonoftime.Anditmeansthereplacementofmotivationbasedonbasicmotivationalstateslikehungerandthirstandtemperatureregulation,desireforplay,allofthat,whichareimpulsivemotivations.I{t}^{\prime }sthereplacementofthatwithahigherordervisionwhereallthosecompetingdemandsareintegrated,right?Integratedacrosstime.Thatparallelsthemovementfrom,say,subcorticaldominancetocorticaldominance,somethinglikethat.Youguysarefacilitatingthat.Okay,sotheymeetwiththeirmentorsand,well,noww{e}^{\prime }reanhourintotheday.Whathappensnext?Maybe30minutesintotheday.Maybe30minutes.Yes.Sonext,theygointotheircourseskillswork.Andthiscourseskillsworkisweuseadaptiveplatformslikeformath.YoucoulduseKhanAcademy,BeastAcademy,somethinglikethat.W{e}^{\prime }rereading-Wha{t}^{\prime }sBeastAcademy?I{t}^{\prime }sasimilarprogramtoKhanAcademy.Itjustfunctionsinalittlebit.Whosetthatup?I^{\prime }mnotsurewhosetupBeastAcademy.ButthepointthereisthatsomelearnerslikeusingKhan,otherlearnerslikeusingBeast.Okay,andthe{y}^{\prime }readaptive.Whatdoesthatmean?Itmeansthatasyougetintothem,sotheycanseewhereareyoustruggling,whatareasyo{u}^{\prime }restrugglingwith,andthe{y}^{\prime }llserveyoumoreofthosetypesofproblems.Andalso,likewithKhanAcademy,andIsaythistoparentsoften,Ido{n}^{\prime }tknowthatther{e}^{\prime }sanybodytha{t}^{\prime }shadalargerimpactonmathintheworldthanSalKhan.Yeah,right.Youwanttowalkthroughthatalittlebit?Ithinkther{e}^{\prime }s50millionactiveusers.Maybetha{t}^{\prime }sanoldstatistic.Buth{e}^{\prime }sessentiallybuiltaplatformtoallowforthecompleteself-directionofmathlearning.Yeah,tha{t}^{\prime }ssuchagooddeal.I{t}^{\prime }sunbelievable.Ineachproblemthatyouget,ther{e}^{\prime }savideorelatedtohowtosolveitwithSalKhantalkingabouthowtoworkthroughaproblemlikethis.AndItellpeople,well,youcanpausethatperson,andyoucanrewindthatperson.Imean,thedynamicissomuchdifferentthanatraditionalclassroominthatway.AndonethingIhearfrompeopleisthatalotofeliteprivateschoolsareactuallyassigningKhanAcademyashomework.AndIsay,well,i{t}^{\prime }sonlyamatteroftimebeforeweseetheactualredundancythere.Right.The{y}^{\prime }rekidding.Andso,yeah,soyoumightdoKhanAcademyorBEAST.Ther{e}^{\prime }sReflexMath,andther{e}^{\prime }sdifferentmathprograms.Wehaveitthatwhenyo{u}^{\prime }redoingaunittest,forinstance,tocheckproficiency,whateverplatformyoudoyourpracticeon,youcheckoutonKhan.Andsother{e}^{\prime }sawaytomakesure...Tousethatasyourstandardizedindicator.Correct.Yeah.Andsohowdoyouthinkyourstudentsaredoingonthemathematicalfront?Iguessyouknowthis.Howaretheydoingonthemathematicalfront?Well,I^{\prime }dsayoverall,the{y}^{\prime }redoingquitewell.Now,i{t}^{\prime }svarying,right?Becauseattheyoungerages,wedo{n}^{\prime }toperateanythingthatwouldequatetoakindergartencollegepreparatoryenvironment.Isayourgoalsforourelementarystudioareverysimple,andthe{y}^{\prime }retwothings.Lovelearningandlearntogetalongwithotherpeople.Masterthose,lovecomingtoschooleveryday,andlearnhowtoworkwellandtotightenatribewithotherpeople.Andsothereasonwesaythatisifyoutookthewholecorpusofelementaryschoolworkofwhatneedstobeaccomplished,i{t}^{\prime }sactuallynotthatmuchwork,relativelyspeaking,ifyo{u}^{\prime }reattherightdevelopmentalage.SoyoucanspendtimelearningtheimportantworkofhowdoIgetintoflow,orhowdoIfindsomethingIlove,howdoIremovedistractions,thingslikethat.Youcanspendthattime,andwehavesystemstohelpwiththis,andstillbefullyontrack,sotospeak,withdoingcoreskillswork.Doyouhaveanyideahowyourstudentsatanygivenageareperforming,le{t}^{\prime }ssay,inthemathematicalrealm,becausetha{t}^{\prime }squiteeasytoquantify,comparedtostudentsinatypicalpublicschoolenvironment?Well,usuallyIsaywedo{n}^{\prime }ttalkaboutthismuchjustbecause,atWonder,wedoonestandardizedtestayear.Itusuallystartsaroundagenine,somethinglikethat.Andwegivenoadministrativesupportforit.Wedo{n}^{\prime }ttellanybodyi{t}^{\prime }shappening.Theyshowuponedaydoingatest.Forourdatathatweseefortheelementaryage,i{t}^{\prime }saroundtwoandahalfgradeoldsabovewheretheyshouldbe.Okay.AreyourkidsselectedonthebasisofincomeorIQ?Neither.Wedohavetuition.However,whenitcomestoselection,i{t}^{\prime }smuchmorefortheyoungeragesbasedon,dotheparentsunderstandwhattypeofschoolweare?Aretheywantingtogoonajourneythathastriumphsandhardships?Dotheyreallyunderstandwhatthe{y}^{\prime }regettinginto?Doyouthinkthatyouhavereasonablecoverageacrossthesocioeconomicspectrum,orareyoutiltedmoretowardsmiddleclassandupward?Well,IwouldsaythatIthinkanyschoolthatchargestuitionislikelytiltedabitmoretowardsmiddleclass.However,wehavepeoplethataresocialworkers,journeymen,carpenters.Manyfamiliesintheschoolwouldfall...Workingclass.Yes.Andi{t}^{\prime }sastretchtopaytuition.Buttheyseethevalueinwhatitis.Andtheysay,theyunderstandthatoneofthebiggestresponsibilitiesthatdecisionswillmakeasparentsishowandwherew{e}^{\prime }regoingtoeducateourchildren.Andonceyouunderstandthat,youca{n}^{\prime }t...Onceyouseeit,yousortofca{n}^{\prime }tunseeit.I{t}^{\prime }ssortoflike,Iwilldo...I^{\prime }vehadparentssaytome,Ido{n}^{\prime }tcareifIneedtotakeasecondjob.Iwillfindawaytopaythetuition.Right.Howmuchisthetuition?Ourtuitionis$10,000 a year over 10 months. So it’s roughly a thousand dollars a month. And does that actually cover your expenses? Yes. Okay. So that’s worth highlighting. So the cost of the education that you’re providing the kids is how much a month? The tuition is around $10,000permonth.Yeah.Rightthere.Wegiveafew...Peryear.Sorry.$10,000 per year. Yes. So you know that in the New York State, the average cost per student per year is $39,000.Yes.Right.Soyoucandoitforaquarterofthat.Ithinkthatwecouldactuallydoitforaround...Ourprojectionrightnowisthatourall-incostswhenw{e}^{\prime }refullyenrolled,about130learners,willbeabout$4,500 a year per learner. That’s what… Yeah. It would be interesting the metric you need from a measurement perspective because you are selecting your students to some degree based on parental interest in education and their ability to pay. So you’re going to be tilting things somewhat up the IQ and socioeconomic scale and probably tilting it up the conscientiousness scale, a priori. The real metric could be how fast your students are learning compared to comparable students in a public school system. Very difficult metric to establish. Yes. So I’m not being skeptical of this. It’s just very interesting to derive performance measures, and that’s a difficult thing to do. Well, and I would say there might be a difference in thinking, especially in elementary school, for us, in that if you took a learner from our school at maybe seven or eight years old and tried to map them with an elite college preparatory school, you might find that our learner is behind on certain areas compared to theirs. That’s not a bad thing. It’s because children need to be allowed time to be children, and they’re not machines to absorb information. Yeah. Well, that’s also the… That’s a problem with measurement, is like if your only measurement rubric is standardized testing, which is generally the only reliable and valid objective measure, there are things that are important that you’re not measuring that are hard to measure. So for example, it would be very useful to measure maturity if you could figure out how to measure it, or if you could measure pro-social behavior. You can do that using teacher ratings of pro-social behavior, for example, peer ratings. So you could derive that, but then you’d need a standardized sample of the same ratings from other schools to compare yourself with, and the probability that you’d be able to derive that is pretty much zero. Well, you can also look at it this way, that you could compare yourself to another school, or if you get down to the individual learner level, you could compare yourself to yourself that was rated before. Yeah, well, that would be the right measure. And that’s the way we do that. Yeah. So we’ll do that with end-of-week surveys, and it’s warm, cool, warm feedback for other learners in the studio. End-of-session 360 surveys, where you’re rating people. Oh yeah, so you’re using peer ratings. Absolutely, and those are posted publicly. So it’s not who said it, but here’s how each person, the comments people had. So how does that, okay, that’s interesting. So how did the kids who are downgraded in a given week, let’s say, respond to that? Because they’re being publicly evaluated. So what’s the justification for that? And have you seen that go wrong? Is there anything that concerns you about that approach? Well, I think if you first start by understanding that we spend a lot of time building the tribe, so in general, people are polite and respectful towards each other, but they might say that, let’s take my son, for instance, Hudson was distracting me numerous times this week. Okay, if that’s one thing on the survey that he was distracting, and these are the types of things that you’ll see. You don’t, if there, we don’t see malicious comments or something like that. We see, hey, no trolls. Yes, yes. Troll free environment. Yes, troll free environment. We don’t see things like that. We see Hudson was distracting me this week from this. And if that comes up one time, that could be noise. But if Hudson is going through and he sees four times people mentioned how he was distracting them, then it’s like looking at that and saying a reflection point. It’s like, hey, I’m distracting you. It’s useful tribal feedback. Very useful tribal feedback. And we put in time using Socratic dialogue and examples of how to give feedback. Let me give a quick example of feedback. So when we first started the school about half a decade ago, we had a number of learners that came in from traditional school, and maybe they were 10, 11, somewhere in there. And our school year is broken into sessions. They’re four to six weeks long. They have a quest that’s like, you know, we put them in a simulation or they’re solving a big problem or something like, it could be architecture, future of farming. They’re doing the American Revolution. And those are the afternoons every day. I’ll get to that. And at the end of that quest, there’s a public exhibition. And the public exhibition is parents, grandparents, family members coming in, and you’re on stage, and this starts roughly at age seven, where you’re presenting in front of all these people. Do you make sure the kids speak loudly enough so everyone in the audience can hear? Audience feedback has made that happen. Yes. Good. We actually had a parent offer to buy- I used to go to my kids’ presentations at their elementary school. You know, they’d be all these kids on stage, and they were all mumbling so quietly that people, even in the first row of the gymnasium, couldn’t hear a damn word they were saying. And everybody in the bloody gym was supposed to sit there for two hours pretending that this was acceptable. And while the kids on the stage were pretending to talk and the teachers were pretending to evaluate. Yes. Yeah. Painful, to say the least. I had a parent in school, Jamie, that was happening. And he said, I’ll buy you a small PA system for this room. And we bought it. But that was solved. So yes, they get on stage, they speak. We record that. And then on Friday- so that happens on the last Thursday of a session. On Friday, they get into a circle, a sporadic discussion, and they give each other warm, cool, warm feedback on how they did. What’s something you did well? What’s something you could improve? What’s another thing you did well? The learners that first came in from traditional schools called that Friday, Friday, because it was so hard to hear feedback. And when you come from an environment where basically there’s only two grades anymore, there’s A and not A. That’s basically what there is now. When you come from that environment and you hear you didn’t do perfect or didn’t do exactly well, well, I just failed. And so we’d give them the option of, hey, you could get written feedback or you could get verbal feedback. The wrong choice in there is written feedback because you don’t have the context of the kindness of the person giving it to you. Right. But they elected that for a little bit until they went back. And so learning, one of the, I would say, a very important lesson in life is how to give and take feedback. Incorporate that in what you do. And what constructive feedback is. Yes. And so in elementary, when they’re learning to give the weekly survey, it might be that we start off with a drop-down menu. You’re selecting a different learner, then a drop-down. Is the issue you had somewhere in here? And it’s like a pre-written, hey, Hudson was distracting today. I’m sorry, Hudson. You’re not. Yeah, poor Hudson. Yes, I did. No, this is there for the eternity. Yes, for eternity. Or they can write their own feedback if it’s something specific. So that starts at a very young age, this idea of tribal reinforcement. How do we operate in here? Do we have an ethos of how we operate? I’ll tell one other anecdote about that. We’ve learned at a school like ours, we cannot recruit. We can’t go out and say, hey, would you come to our school? The reason is you have to be looking for what we’re offering. I think that’s true almost whenever you do anything with anyone. It’s so much better to have someone come looking than to go sell. Yes, exactly. I made what I would consider maybe a mistake saying I met these learners and I thought, gosh, their parents were amazing. I thought they’d do a great job. We invited them to apply to the school. And that was a hard lesson I learned. But one of the most important lessons there was that these learners came in and I often say there’s two behaviors we can’t incorporate as a school. One would be a blatant disrespect for other people, either manipulation or lying. So that’s anti-social behavior. Yes. And I don’t mean that you get into a conflict. We have conflicts arise all the time. And I’ll talk about how we resolve those. But these learners came in the school. And for various reasons, they were highly disrespectful, things like that. The tribe came to me in my office one day. It’s usually the older girls. They really value order. And I think for some reason what we see is a lot of the older girls take leadership roles somewhat younger than some of the younger boys would. And they came to my office and they said, hey, look, here’s all the things we’ve tried. Here’s what’s going on. They just don’t understand we don’t do those things here. Right. Right. And I said, guys, what you’re saying is that there’s a way that we do things here. That’s an ethos. We have something that defines us. First off, that’s amazing. How amazing is that we have that? And second, we troubleshoot it different ways that we could solve this. Ultimately, the learners weren’t fit for the school. Well, one thing that’s worth knowing on that front, by the way, is that if anti-social proclivities are not rectified by the age of four, they’re virtually impossible to rectify after that, no matter what you do. Right. Anti-social behavior proclivities are more stable than IQ. And psychologists have tried everything you can possibly imagine to rectify anti-social behavior proclivities with either zero or negative success. Right. So your observation that if you have kids who are tilted in the overtly trouble making direction, and that would be associated, say, with that overt disrespect for others, the probability that you’re going to be able to do anything about that is extraordinarily low. Right. It’s one of the most dismal fragments, aspects of the clinical psychology literature, because psychologists have thrown everything they had at the remediation of anti-social behavior. The only, and with no effect, the only exception I’ve ever seen to that is the work of someone named Dan Olweus, who went on an anti-bullying campaign in the Scandinavian countries and managed that quite effectively. But he did that really through a cultural transformation of the schools, rather than a focus on the individual behavior of any given students. So anyways, all right, so let’s go back to the days. So we’ve gone through the Socratic dialogue, we’ve gone through the meetings with the mentors, and I think that’s pretty much where we stopped in terms of progressing through an actual day. And then you are going into what we call self-directed course skills. Oh yeah, we talked about the Khan Academy a bit there too. And so you’re going to self-directed course skills, and now I think the important thing to understand about a school like ours, and this is where my, what I mentioned earlier is so important, is the system is so much different, and our school is largely ran by systems and recipes that we hand off to learners. So for instance, people would say, well, you’re saying that the guide doesn’t have the traditional role in the classroom, that they are not there for telling learners what to do. How do you get learners to do work? So number one, if something’s gamified and it’s fun, they want to do it, and they actually really enjoy doing it. So even something that’s gamified like Khan Academy, or some of these other platforms, it’s enjoyable for them to do, and it’s enjoyable for them to watch their progress moving up. And I think it’s a progress towards the goal that really gets them maybe it’s dopamine or something like that, that it triggers. But also within the school, what you think of the school as like being embedded in a game, we have what are called freedom levels. And so within the studio, you have the ability to earn your freedom solely by the work that you do. It’s not subjective. It’s you earn this, a guide cannot take this away from you. And so for instance, and so for instance, say you move up 1% in Khan Academy, in your grade level, and the grade level is based on where are you at right now, and you’ll make goals towards where do you want to be. When you move up 1%, you earn 20 points. So this is the game. If you earn 300 points within a week, the next week, you’re at the highest freedom level. It means that next week, you get to choose what you work on, when you work on it, and where you work on it. So sort of like life. Yes, very much so. And so, but also, if you say, hey, if you’re distracted for a week, something like that, you’re getting less work done, you might be on freedom level one. And that would look like, hey, you have a desk, and there’s what you do, what the schedule look like on the board. And what we find is that 80 to 90% of the learners are on freedom level two or three, they want the additional freedom. It’s enough of incentive just to say, I have the agency over my time in the day, I know the steps I need to take to get it. They’ve agreed and helped develop the system. It’s been a part of what they’ve done. And so it’s how you incentivize, you know, maybe work or hard work. But the true answer, especially the younger you are, is that gamification of work is enough. You have fun game to play. And I often ask people, talk to people if they say, hey, the studio is getting a bit disorderly, it happens. I would ask, well, what’s wrong with the game that we’re setting up? How can we make the game more fun to play? So that’s core skills. So if I objected, well, life isn’t going to be fun. So how do you know you’re not setting up a micro environment for children that isn’t representative of the macro environment to which they’ll have to adapt? No, I mean, I enjoy the descriptions of the programs that you’re putting forward. And I would love to believe that that was all true without any reservation. But, you know, I’m trying to allow myself as many skeptical thoughts as I can possibly manage. And so, and I am curious about this. I mean, I know that Khan Academy has had a lot of success in their mathematics training. And I know they use a gamified approach. But that what that really is, is a carefully designed system of incentives, rewards that are that actually match the motivational structure of the learners. You could call that gamified, but it’s actually just adapted properly for learning. But do you feel that you are preparing the kids for the realities of the real real world? And what evidence do you have that that might actually be the case? When you say realities of the real world, can you be specific on that? Well, that’s a good objection, actually. Well, let’s say that 30, 40 percent of your graduates at, you know, after high school go and get a just an ordinary job, a construction job, job in a restaurant, a job in a local store, a job. Are they going to be fit for those positions, given the experiences that they’ve had in your school? Well, I think we’re maybe prematurely asking the question. And here’s why I say that. Elementary is very different than middle, which is very different than high school. So there is a progression upwards. So if I gave you the goals of studios just ahead of time, saying if you’re under middle school, it’s this love learning and learn to get along with people. So elementary is by design about developing a love of learning. Why is that? Is because when you get into middle school, if I had to put one sentence goal, be learn to work hard for three hours a day, which is hard for many adults to do if they’re honest with themselves. So you’re inculcating a more conscientious focus increasingly as they progress to school. All right. Okay. Well, that’s a very, that’s a very good answer. All right. All right. And so you’ve built that in where it’s developmentally appropriate. You said your goal is, yeah, actual on task work for three hours a day. And yeah, you’re right. You can, you can, you can, you can have a wonderful life if you can work focused on one thing for three hours a day. Yeah. And that, that’s actually a very, very high level of attainment to manage that. Yes. And they do it in middle school and I’ll talk about how and why, but yes, the, the design of elementary school is more exploration, love of learning, social learning to get along with other people. And I’ll give you an example of that about, and this applies to the real world and success in the real world. At a normal school, if you find that you have maybe a continuous conflict with another learner, maybe at a large school, one of the most common things is they’ll separate those learners in different classrooms. Yeah. But that’s not what you can do in life is that every time you have a conflict with somebody that you, or a big conflict, that you’re going to just remove that person from your life. Yeah. Well, it also doesn’t necessarily eliminate the conflict, right? It doesn’t. It actually maybe does the opposite, reinforcing the negative behavior. Yeah. And so at Wonder, what happens is if you have a conflict with another learner, either learner can call a conflict resolution session and you can have a 30 minute cool down period if emotions are high. Yeah. Yeah. They’ll do a, what, so what happens is they will find a mentor, what we call peacemaker from the middle school or high school, somebody that’s earned their chops, so to speak, helping to make peace in the school. And they sit across from each other at a three foot table with the mentor on the side. And the mentor has a formal conflict resolution sheet. These happen two, three times a day that because conflicts happen in society, that’s just the way it is. And so the mentor will read off and it starts like this. Why are we here? We’re here because heroes solve problems. They don’t run from problems. And then it goes into what you would consider like a speaker listener exercise. Each person gets a chance to be heard, have it repeated back to them, vice versa. They negotiate a bit in there. And at the end of it is what’s one concrete item the other person could do to make the situation better? Yeah. That’s very good. Yeah. And that takes negotiation, by the way. Absolutely. That is negotiation. Yes. Because maybe something you propose the other person could do wouldn’t be something they think they actually can do. Yeah. But Jordan, we see this happen with six and a half year olds that are learning to get their voice. They’ll call a conflict resolution on somebody that’s older than them. And they know that one of these mentors in middle school or high school are going to give them a fair shake. And they get to have their voice heard. Sometimes it’s an intimidating set of circumstances. But one of the most fulfilling things you can see in a situation like that is a young person learning to know that if they can voice how they’re feeling properly, that they can be heard and issues in their life can be addressed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you’re moving the kids towards reconciliation. Absolutely. Yeah. Conflict is inevitable. And reconciliation is possible. But it has to be negotiated. And so the strategy that you laid forward there is very wise. Yes. Okay. So back now. So the kids are concentrating on exercises like Khan Academy. That’s on the mathematics front. What else are they learning in elementary school? Deep books. They’re going into deep books, badge books. And so they’ll, it’s part of their reading. So they’ll be selecting books to read that they can earn a badge for. How do they learn to read? So you, usually in the younger studio, so we have a Montessori studio that starts before this. That’s where they generally learn to read. One of the items of success in our elementary school studio is a basic proficiency in reading. You either come in knowing how to read or we’ll work with you on programs like Lexia or something like that to build your reading proficiency. So these are programs that are external again, like Khan, that have been designed to help kids run through a phonics training program. How do they teach them to read? Yes, basically. And Lexia? Yeah. Lexia is one of those that we use. It’s reading comprehension or just basic reading. And you’re impressed with these programs? Well, I’ve seen them work very well. But, you know, I think ultimately young people want to learn. And I think something that’s also very true about this whole discussion is that there’s something very different between teaching and learning. And they’re two completely different things in that sense. I don’t know that it’s true. I actually think it is true that all learning is self-motivated learning. And so, yes, at the younger ages, getting into the exploration of learning, maybe three through six age in the Montessori studio that we have, that’s where they first get introduced to reading. And then as they get through middle school, they’ll really master that level of reading. But they’ll start with books that are appropriate for their age level and for their competency in reading. How did you identify those books? Well, it’s not necessarily up to us. We select a library of books, but they can pitch any book they like. If they like a book to have in the library. Right. So, okay. I see. So you crowd source that problem. Absolutely. And here’s the reason why. You have to look at what is the goal of reading. The goal of reading is to help somebody develop a love of reading. And the way you develop a love of reading is by reading what you love. And so one surefire way to make sure that somebody doesn’t like to read is to force them to read things that they’re not interested in. And what I found young people, especially learn from this, is if you’re forcing them to do this work, something that they don’t want to do, they might do it. Because maybe that they’re pressured to get this grade or something like that. Usually they’ll memorize it rather than learn it. But they often hate it. They resent it. And they also resent the adult that makes them do it. Yeah. Well, and then they’ll resent the whole damn enterprise. Yes. You know, because you’ll have kids, I remember I had friends like this, who said, I hate reading. It’s like, well, you know, that’s a terrible thing for a child to say. Because to say you hate reading is the same as saying, I hate exploring. I hate thinking. I hate discussing. Right. And but I mean, they were very honest in their hatred. And the reason they hated it is because, well, they weren’t taught how to do it well. And then they were forced into reading things that they didn’t want to. Here’s something I remember from grade eight. I think this pissed me off more than anything that ever happened to me in junior high. And there were a lot of things that happened in junior high that I wasn’t very happy about. And this was probably the top of the list. So I was a very fast reader as a kid. And I could generally read all the books for the year in English class in the first two or three days. And I would usually do that by reading those books behind a textbook in all the other classes. And so I remember telling my teacher, I don’t know, three days into the bloody English course, that I had read all the books. And her answer was, read them again. And I thought, you know, that’s really a bad answer. Because what I just announced to you was that I already did all the work for the year this week. And I was basically asking you, you know, could you give me some more books? And by the way, this is a school. So you’d think that would be a place where that question could be reasonably asked. And the answer was, do the work you’ve already done again, and make sure that you don’t have any enjoyment whatsoever while you’re pursuing it. Plus, shut the hell up and don’t bother me again. Right? Yeah. I should say in that same school, I had a librarian there, Sandy Nautley, who was the wife of the socialist leader in town in the MLA. And I used to go to the library and she would give me books and good books. And when she taught me a lot, because she’d give me a book and I’d read it, and then I’d tell her and she’d give me another book. And that was unbelievably useful. That was self-guided learning in some ways. And so I really loved that. My dad too, he was teaching grade six at that point. He used a system called SSRI, which was Sustained, Silent, Self-Reinforced Instruction, something like that. I haven’t got the acronym exactly right. But it was graded texts in a file folder of increasing difficulty with self-evaluation. And you could progress through that at your own rate. God, I loved that. I would have had a fine time in school. You had to feel empowered by that too. Well, plus there was a challenge constantly when I could find the edge of my reading ability and start to play with that instead of having to read things that I had figured out how to read like four years before. So I suppose that was an early form of gamification, but it isn’t really gamification. It’s just using the processes of incentive reward properly. Well, and that’s a crucial part of gamification is that, right? Is it incentive reward? Yes, it’s proper incentivization. So maybe at a young age, it is gamification in some ways. Maybe if that’s like how- Well, a game is actually an activity where the incentive rewards are lined up properly. That’s how you define a game. So it isn’t like a game exists outside that. It’s that a game is a micro environment that’s structured so optimally that people will engage in being there voluntarily. Yes. I think that’s a huge point of engage in being there voluntarily. Yes, absolutely. Well, there’s a moral rule in some ways that emerges out of that, which is that if you haven’t set up the environment so that the participants will engage in it voluntarily, you’ve set up a pathological environment. It’s either tyranny or chaos. Those are the alternatives. I wonder if we say something like this. Look, if there’s an issue in the studio involving two to three learners, okay, well, likely they’re going through something and they have a lot of energy or they’re not interested in what’s happening right now. If it’s 50% of the studio, what are we doing wrong with the game? How are we making the game wrong? But about reading, I think this is very important. I had a parent that was interested in the school say to me, well, how do you determine what they must read? And he was very much in the classical education side, which I have a lot of, like, I really enjoy a lot of that. And he said, well, you’re telling me that they don’t have to read these great books. They’re not forced to read these great books. And I went through this idea of reading and developing a love for reading. And also that I would ask, maybe pose the question something like this. What’s more important, the four years, maybe of high school, that you’re engaged in reading deep books, making sure they do that, or making sure they love reading so much that the next 60 years is filled with enjoyable reading? And I think that’s maybe- Well, and people will, if you teach them to love reading, they will advance in their reading to their zone of proximal development. And they’ll read the most complex books they can manage, assuming they have enough knowledge to find those books. People will do that automatically. And so you might say, well, you should instill a love of the classics. And what that would mean optimally is that you inform people that great books exist and you show them where they are, but you pretty much have to let them come to those books on their own. And they may not be able to do that, well, maybe ever in their whole life, because great books tend to be relatively complex on the intellectual front, but they may have to come to that obliquely. A lot of behavioral psychologists will give their clients self-help books. And intellectuals in the popular culture, they have derogatory attitude towards self-help books. I mean, the whole genre is like, well, that’s self-help. It’s like, well, first of all, what’s your objection to that exactly? You don’t think people should be trying to help themselves? And then I don’t know if you notice, but that’s actually introductory philosophy, moral philosophy. That’s what a self-help book is. And you might say, well, I have contempt for it because it’s introductory. It’s like, well, where the hell do you expect people to start? Most people don’t even read. And then when you see people who are willing to take a step into the domain of self-help, it means they’ve actually progressed in their reading enough, so they’re starting to contemplate the elementary ideas of moral philosophy and even theology. It’s like you should do everything you can to reward that. Well, it’s an awakening of sorts for them. And it’s like, who are we to say that the point at which they’re awakening is not the point that they should be at? It’s like they’re in a journey right now, and this is where they should be because they’ve elected for that to be the place. And how can we criticize them for not being in a different place? Yeah, well, you do that by proclaiming your moral superiority on hypothetical intellectual grounds. It’s a pretty pathetic game. So, okay, so you’ve got your kids. You’re instilling in them a love of reading, at least in principle, by teaching them to read. So, you know that kids actually tend not to enjoy reading, so to speak, until they can read a phrase at something like a glance, and they can start reading for meaning rather than to have to struggle with word comprehension. And so part of the trick with teaching kids, of course, is to get them past the point of stumbling over words so that it becomes as easy to read as it does to talk or to listen, let’s say. But you’ve solved that problem to some degree by using these sophisticated reading education programs that are analogous in some ways to the Khan Academy. I would say that’s part of the solution. When I say solution, it’s just we’re providing them the tool to be able to unlock something that they really want. And they want to know how to read. They want to be able to get a book off a shelf to be able to read it. But I think also you have to rethink what you’re thinking of as reading. Why can’t a comic book be there as reading? Why can’t a graphic novel be there as reading? And it can be. And the younger ones love those. And so they can develop that love of reading by something that we would think, well, where’s the content value in something like this? But many of these are great stories, not all graphic novels. Well, they’re not popular novels unless they have a… They’re not popular literary endeavors unless they have the capacity to grip the attention of the reader. And they’re not going to grip the attention of the reader unless they tell a good story. So I think that is self-selecting. I mean, a story won’t elicit attention from a reader if it isn’t doing something for them. So to the process of the school. So yes, engage in reading. So what does the reading process look like? Well, number one, they’ll pick a book that would constitute a badge book. Something that they would… Is maybe at their level of development, on the cusp of being difficult, right? Something that also maybe is interesting, possibly associated with their hero’s journey, something like that. But this could be a who is book or something like that at the younger ages. Then they’ll read that book and write a review on that book. And then they’ll read that review during a Socratic discussion or after one completes before they break the circle. The younger ages, that’s it. You read it, you write the simple review on it. The review, it doesn’t have a word count like requirement, it doesn’t have anything like that. The idea is that you’ve read a book, you’ve written and you’ve answered three or four questions on it. What was your favorite character? What surprised you the most? Things like that. And then you present it in front of the tribe. Then as you get into the older studios, they’ll actually vote on your book review. Did it meet the requirements? Do we feel like they really understood the plotline or something like that? And also, is there evidence that they didn’t read the book? So there’s some self-reinforcing here. And if they deny the book, the book review, so to speak, it’s not, oh, it’s done. It’s like, hey, address these things and then come back and represent the book review. Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Yeah, yeah. And then the next book they read for their next badge book, one of the rules is it needs to be more difficult than the last. So maybe they’re not ready to do a badge book review for a while again because they’re still working on reading proficiency. They have a goal of the book they want to do next, but they’re not quite there yet. And so they’re striving for something there. But what this tears up to, if you look at, I’ll give you a quick story about what I walked into on the middle school one day. And mind you, this is all from the system of not forcing reading, working to make reading fun. And so I walked into middle school one day and it was during a time in the schedule called Drop Everything and Read. And so it’s just, they’re all reading. I saw three girls and one boy sitting and we have kind of like, it’s more, it looks like a shared workspace, something comfy like this. They’re sitting in different chairs reading. And the books that I saw them reading were Atlas Shrugged, The Boys Who Challenged Hitler, The Da Vinci Code, and Unbroken. And this is all from, without us saying, you need to read any of these books. This is from them going to the shelf. And when you get into middle school, a deep book is a book that’s won an award or changed the world in some way. And that’s like kind of how you pitch a book that you’d like to be a deep book. And so by giving them options and selection, they wanted to challenge themselves and they wanted to read about like heroic stories. And that was, that’s just something that when I walk in and see something like that, I’m thinking like, yes, this is the way this should be. That they’re moving up in this progression of excellence or maybe proficiency or something like that. And they’re voluntarily choosing to go into these deep stories. All right. So back, how much more content should we cover, content process with regard to elementary school? Well, I think one thing I failed to mention at the beginning is our year is couched in what I call a badge plan. And so a badge plan is at the beginning of the year, you’re after a couple of weeks being in the studio, because we really make the first session. Remember, our years are four to six week sessions and we take at least a week break. So we take a four to six week session. And in that first session, a learner will start working a badge plan for the year. And basically what they’re doing on their own at first is saying, this is what I’d like to accomplish in reading and math and writers workshops. So they’re starting to envision goals for themselves. And how young? This starts at roughly seven years old. Oh yeah, that’s really good. And it’s important for parents to know this is that that is not an accurate assessment at seven years old. It requires like feedback. You just say, hey, I’d like to accomplish four grade olds of math this year. Well, that’s a great ambition. But what they’ll get is then feedback from a guide and from parents on saying, hey, do we think these are smart goals? And we really use that rubric that they’re specific, measurable. But what I really like to focus on- What is a smart goal? Go through that. Specific, measurable, attainable, relevant, and time bound. Yeah, okay. Great. So they have a rubric of evaluation for their vision. And that’s also peer evaluated. Absolutely. And that gives the peer something to evaluate. Hey, this is really specific that you want to accomplish three grade olds of math this year, but is it attainable? And they’ll walk through what that could look like. So at the beginning of the year, they set out a badge plan. That badge plan is a signature is put on it by the student. A signature is put on it by the guide once they go over it and say it’s filled with smart goals. And then parents. And that essentially sets the stage. And that’s another thing we need to talk about a little bit is contracts within the studio. But that is one of them that then they have a document that says, here’s what we’ve all agreed I’m doing this year. And so if you need to reflect back, they have a plan and a goal. And we do a check in on this halfway through the year, and they can adjust their goals at that point. Did I set too hard of goals? Were they too easy? Did I get all my badge book sends right away because I was so focused on the love of reading that I have for Harry Potter or something like that. And so they’ll have that as their plan. And then at the end of the year, they’ll check in on that plan. How did I do? And that is not a graded process. It’s an iterative process to get better and better at making goals that you can attain. Yeah, well, right. It’s also a great way of inculcating what the process of coming to self-knowledge, but also accurate self-knowledge. We tend to think, especially in our idiot culture, that people are transparent to themselves. I can define who I am. And that’s simply not true because you’re too complex to be transparent to yourself. And so you’re going to have all sorts of delusional ideas, some negative and some too positive about who you are and what you’re capable of. And part of the way you modify that so you come to a realistic appraisal of yourself is by smacking yourself up against the world and succeeding or failing, but also by encountering other people who go, yeah, I don’t think so. Or who pat you on the back and say, good job. Right. And so by having kids develop an unrealistic vision to begin with, which is what’s going to happen with young kids because what the hell do they know? And then by modifying that with peer evaluation and guide evaluation, you’re also helping the children come to a much more precise and accurate understanding of who they are and how they can foster their own development. That’s really nice to have. They didn’t inculcate it so young. Okay. So the kids have a contract and they develop a goal and the peers give them feedback, their teacher, their guide, their parents. So they’re coming to more accurate self-evaluation. Let’s turn our attention to middle school and high school. We’ve concentrated a fair bit in elementary and that’s fine. So lay out the situation in middle school for me. Yeah. And I think just briefly something I’d say about the reason I think there’s a big focus in elementary school is that most schools in the United States get preschool kindergarten right. Don’t take it too seriously. Have a lot of fun. Explore the basics. Be social. When you get into elementary school, it’s like there’s a switch that flips. It says, hey, college is coming. School’s not fun. Homework is here. And so I think what WONDER does is we’re able to take that period of childhood and allow it to still be childhood. But there comes a time when you need to like start to move up. And that’s why we say elementary, love learning, get along with other people. In middle school, work truly hard for at least three hours a day. In flow. And then I’ll add high school there too. Have a tested and vetted idea of what you’d like to do with your life. And so let me back integrate into that. In middle school, you are doing far more, I would say, you’re still doing Socratic launches every day. You have the kind of core work that you’re working on. And what’s the age range for your middle school? It’s 11 to 13, somewhere in that range. And it’s a bit fluid because in a normal school, the constant is how long you can take to do some work. The variable is how proficient you are at it. In our school with mastery, the constant is we master, we work for mastery. The variable is how long it takes to get that done. And so if it takes you a few months or whatever extra to do that, that’s okay. And it works within the system. So they have a similar structure where they’re doing morning course skills work, afternoon quests. It’s very much built on challenges that are delivered from a guide to the learners. And they go through on their own with challenges in Western civilization, with writer’s workshop, and they’re building that body of work throughout a session, throughout six weeks. The key, if I look broadly at middle school and high school, the key is that, and this is maybe a thought about a protest against delayed maturation, is that if you look at some people that we really respect in the world, like Da Vinci, you can look at Carnegie, these people started apprenticing at age 12 and 13. They were in the real world, getting real world experience at age 12 and 13. Michelangelo. Michelangelo. And so there’s no reason that young people today aren’t capable of the same thing. And so one of the defining characteristics of our middle school, as you’re working on hard work, and mind you, we have, if done properly at our school, there’s no homework at any point throughout the school. This is all done within the timeframes that we have at school. The progress from- How long are your school days? Roughly 9 to 3.30. Okay, so standard. Standard school day. Yes. And so what you’ll start in middle school is your apprenticeship process. So you’re starting to confine, you’re starting to constrain that, exploration in elementary, as you get into middle school, you’re really starting to hone in. Right, so you can work three hours, and so this is also the answer to the question that I posed earlier, which is how do you make sure that this is aligned with the real world? And part of your answer is, well, we put kids out in the real world. They’re in the real world starting at 11. So starting at 11, you’ll get your first apprenticeship. And that apprenticeship starts like this. And this is something I think is so important, is that one, guides and parents don’t secure apprenticeships for our learners. The learners do. We help them with recipes for it. And here’s what a recipe would be. Number one, what do you love? Take things that you’ve learned in the world, experiences you’ve had, experiences you’ve had in elementary school, where you explored through all these quests that we do in the afternoon. Take all that and develop a list of 10 heroes that you have based on something that you would love to do. You’d love to learn more about. Maybe it’s videography. Say in elementary, we did this quest on videography. I loved it. In middle school, you’ll take that. You’ll find heroes in that field locally. You’ll take those 10 heroes, narrow it down to three. And then from those three heroes, you go through a process of finding their email address. And this is local. This is local. It can be otherwise. You can do it otherwise. That’s probably more what somebody might do in high school. But to start with, those are these local. I’ll give some examples of these too, because they’re very powerful. You have heroes. You narrow it down. You find their email address. You have to write an email that will get opened first, which is not always easy for busy people. Number two, in that email, you have to make the case for how they’ve inspired you. What work have you done to research this person? What do you know about them? And then how can you explain it? So you’re teaching them how to do a really high quality job application letter. Absolutely. And if you get one of these, it’s like I’ve gotten one from a learner in the middle school unexpectedly who wanted to start a school like ours. That’s her journey in life. And I read it and I was like, there’s just no way I could turn this down. There’s just no way. I couldn’t do it. So they’re writing an email, one that will get open, two in that email, they’re requesting a five minute phone call. In that five minute phone call, they’re requesting a 10 minute in-person meeting. And in that very sneaky. Yes. In that in-person meeting, they’re requesting a six week apprenticeship. But it’s all very genuine, meaning it’s like saying, this is a person that’s inspired me in my life. This is something that I want. I have specific things I want to learn from them. And so a couple of examples of that. In our school, we now have high school. Our oldest age is 16 right now, just because we grow with the learners that are at the older ages. We don’t enroll into high school. You really need to start at the lower ages and work up. You could probably guess why. Yeah. Have you tried it? Yes. And what’s been your experience? They’re too cynical? No, it’s usually a lack of self-motivation. You come into an environment where no adult is telling you what to do every day. And you’ve been in an environment where everybody’s been telling you all the time. And this is why I tell people about the role of our guide, is that the reason our guides don’t answer questions like they do is that in life, there’s not somebody standing over your shoulder all the time giving you answers to things. But the information’s at your fingertips if you know how to properly utilize it and you’re motivated to do so. And we know this. Kids are doing this every day. They’re not doing it for their schoolwork because it’s not interesting or fun to them. But they’re doing it for the things that they’re passionate about in the world on YouTube and things like that. So for one example, we have a young girl in the school and her grandfather is somebody that works with the wrongfully accused. And at a young age, that took hold of her and she’s very inspired by that. So at age 11, maybe 12, right in there, she decided she wanted to be an attorney potentially. And so she did this whole process. And she’s went through this process now for three years, I believe, where she’s validated this idea that, yes, this is what I want to do. Which by the way, one of the most important takeaways from apprenticeship you could probably have is that I don’t want to do this thing that I thought I did. We’ve got stories about that too. But she’s done that. And now at age 15, she’s participated in jury selections, depositions, these things. She’s on the way to be doing the work that somebody that is graduated from college is just starting to do. She’s doing that work. And one other example- What sort of feedback are you getting about her from the people she’s been apprenticing to? Well, I would say that- I have a quick anecdote about that. One of the girls that is in this studio as well, she wanted to intern apprentice at this pet store. She wants to work with animals in a zoo and things like that. She was too young to be hired as an apprentice, but they said, hey, we’ll let you shadow. And so she went into shadow. And then, it was just their personal policy that she couldn’t be hired until this age, a certain age. She went and did that. And after that next year, they said, we were so impressed by the work that you did that we’ve changed our policy so that you can come work here. And I think when you’re coming up in this environment and you’re learning how to work well with other people, and what these learners say, they understand is that be happy to do any job. It doesn’t matter if you’re emptying the garbage cans. You’re getting into somewhere and somebody’s giving you their time. And Jordan, a powerful thing I might want to say here is I think this is a very important point, is that the role of a mentor is an opt-in relationship. Meaning, I think that’s often the confusion with maybe a teacher that’s wanting to bring a personal thought into a classroom, is that that’s a mentorship relationship. Meaning, a young person asks you to be a mentor or seeks you out as a mentor. Otherwise, the job is academic. Parents are sending their kids to school to learn academics. And I think that’s what’s so powerful is they’re electing their mentors here. So the last thing I’ll mention about apprenticeships, because mind you, they started 11, and they’ll go all the way through high school. And there’s a process for this. But the last thing I’ll mention is that we had one girl that was, and I’m mentioning girls here, we also have boys that have done great apprenticeships as well. She thought, for sure, I want to be a veterinarian. And she at 11, interned with a veterinarian, is a surgeon. She loves horses, loves animals. The first sign of the surgery room and blood couldn’t handle it, almost lost it, so to speak. And that was an amazing learning for her at a young age, because when might you learn that otherwise if maybe it’s after undergraduate school or something like that. And so she knows, I still want to work with animals. I love them. But this direction isn’t the precise direction. What an amazing learning. So that’s how we look at apprenticeships in the school. They started at age 11. So you’re still doing your core skills type of work, still moving up in deep books. You’re doing chemistry, physics, biology, much more intentionally, I would say. So you’re doing medical biology and chemistry, and we’re making it very relatable. And then in high school, this is where really kind of everything comes together. So you have a love of learning. You know how to work well with other people. You have the habits of hard work. And now, what is it? In middle school, you’ve also tested this idea in the world. You’ve gone out in the world, do things. And so what happens in high school is what we call the next great adventure. And the next great adventure really is you’re declaring after doing three to four years of apprenticing, this is where I want to, this is where I fit into the world. This is what I want to do. So you’re declaring, you’re putting a flag in the ground. And then with that, you’re going on journey of deliberate work through high school. And that deliberate work is number one, declaring it, saying, this is what I’m going to do. Number two, you’re doing, you’re finding people in that industry and you’re doing a minimum of 10 interviews with these people that have done what you would like to do and have inspired you in some way. And then through that, you’re asking them, you know, tough questions. These are long, pretty long interviews that people say yes to. Then from there, you’re going into deliberate practices of this work. So it could be getting a credential on the work from a third party source, or it could be- And the kids figure out how to do this themselves, essentially. We have recipes, we hand off to them, and that they engage in this process. Absolutely. But there’s never a time when adults going to help you with your interview, or meaning like they’re going to be there at the interview with you or anything like that. There’s not a time when they’re going to help you secure an apprenticeship. And how are the high school kids monitoring themselves and why does that work? Explain to me. Well, we walked through the elementary school situation where there were kids from six and a half to 11 participating. In high school, the age is what? 14 to 18? And it’s the same basic model. The kids are self- the young people are self-monitoring. And do they turn the 14 year olds, do they turn to the 18 year olds for mentoring? Is that- Absolutely. And it just happens naturally. Meaning like- And they’re already accustomed to doing this. It’s- you know when you walk into an organization, you can see the culture is way different in this place than it is otherwise. That’s how it would look. There’s times when our middle school, high school guide will be out of the studio for long periods of time. And they’ve actually said to him, you know, he was gone. Our middle school, high school guide is a stellar individual. And he loves what he does. He was gone for a number of days once. And so I was sort of doing the check-ins with the learners. And when he got back, he said, hey, what did you like and not like about when I was gone? And their response to him was, we actually like it when you work outside of the studio more because it reduces the temptation for us to go to you with a question. And it requires us to work together on these items. So yes, it’s similar- Necessity. Yep. Peer to peer accountability and work. So now, have you had students graduate from high school and go on to colleges and universities already? Have you been in operation long enough for that to happen? Our oldest right now is 16, but in our network of schools, and we’re just one school. I only speak for ours. Yes, absolutely. There’s been learners that have went up through this same model that have went on to great apprenticeships, go to different types of colleges, start jobs, things like that. Do you have any idea how your kids are doing when they go out of the schools into the actual world? Well, I think we hear anecdotes about that, about somewhat of what you talked about before, about, hey, there is sort of like, you’re leaving this environment, which is basically a civil society, is what we set up. Right. That’s what’s set up there. That’s governed by learners with appropriate handoffs of systems and recipes. And so there’s comments about what they see, maybe that it’s very difficult for people to make decisions, like not them, for other people that went through different models. It’s a very common thing that we see. And that a lot of the work, maybe an undergrad seems like fake work, which we know it is. And so those are comments. But I think the idea is that they’ve developed agency to broaden to the world and aim towards something that is very valuable. I wonder if your kids are going to be statistically more likely to be entrepreneurs, right? Because my suspicions are that they would have some, I wouldn’t say difficulty fitting into traditional environments, but unwillingness to do so and the proclivity to set up systems of their own that actually function properly, which is one of the advantages, of course, of setting up your own school or your own businesses. Yeah, I think that’s that is. So if parents were running out of time on this segment, we’re going to flip over to the daily wire plus side momentarily. And I’m going to walk, Zach, through some autobiographical reminiscences and talk about how his destiny and his calling came to be, let’s say. But let’s close this off practically speaking. So a lot of the people who are listening to or watching this are going to be interested in while learning more and also about how they might maneuver so that they can set up a school like this in their local environment. So what’s what are the what are the practical, what do they need to know practically in order to manage that? Well, I think number one, practically, you need to know the type of school and model that this is. We’ve talked a lot about it here. But being at Wonder is a journey for parents and learners. And what I mean by that is the process that we’re actually engaging in from a psychological standpoint, a therapeutic standpoint for parents might be something like differentiation. And because you have to you have to be able to be willing to let your learner succeed and fail. So if you’re ready for a journey like that, truly ready for that, which So you’re teaching the parents how to let their kids be independent or how to foster that independence. Yeah, that’s a good deal. Well, how else will we be able to well, I would say this. When you may when you set up an environment like this, where young people have agency, if we’re taking that agency away arbitrarily, we’re not really helping them develop the agency. Absolutely. And so you have to give them sort of like a space that’s theirs, that we all agree the journey you’re on. We’ve made a badge plan as well. Yeah. Now you go off and accomplish this. We believe in you. And I often say to parents that something I’ll say to my kids is, look, this is your journey. It’s not my journey. Yeah, right. Yeah. I am just so glad to be a cheerleader on the sideline. And I cannot wait to see what you do. Right. So if you’re if a parent is really ready to say, hey, I want my child to be one of the people who leaves school with agency, and ready to launch off into the world. I think you can look at wonder, we’re looking to expand our schools as well. And you can look at Acton Academy. And there’s many schools around, there’s maybe 300 schools in the Acton Academy network. And now and there’s plans to expand that always well, it’s consistently expanding based on parent entrepreneurs that want to take on this hero’s journey of their own. And so, you know, right now, we’re looking specifically, we’re in Kansas, we’re looking in Iowa as well, my home state to expand our schools. And the purpose is just to allow more young people to have this experience in life. Because I had somebody say to me once, man, these kids are so lucky. And my thought to them was, no, this is what they deserve. They deserve to be able to have like agency over their life appropriately at a young age, to have mentors and people that they look up to. It isn’t even no, you know, it isn’t even only that they deserve it, right? I mean, you could say, well, you’re optimizing a juvenile polity that reflects how the world could be and should be constructed. But it isn’t just that the kids deserve it. It’s that because they’re such a stellar resource, it’s appallingly inefficient and pathetic of society not to utilize their full resources. And so because, you know, one of the things you made mention of early in our conversation was that, you know, each person has something to offer in the world that’s unique and people are unique. I mean, we’re all human, but each of us has something about him or her that’s not ever going to be replicated. And that needs to be brought forward. And it’s in everyone’s interest to ensure that that’s brought forward. And you start that by not demoralizing children, right? So there’s a social interest here too, that isn’t merely limited to the individual. I think Paris maybe don’t understand how deep that extent goes. Just real quickly give this example. Imagine you have an eight-year-old that’s just starting to write and they’re starting to write stories and they bring you this little book that they’ve written. The appropriate response to that is, wow, yeah, like, was this… Here’s what you did well. Yes. Here’s what you could improve on. Boy, it’s great you’ve done that. Yes. The appropriate response is, wow, how hard was this for you to do? Looks like you worked really hard on this. Yeah. What we all have a tendency to do is say, hey, but did you notice you spelled this word right? There’s nothing that’s more demoralizing to an eight-year-old that’s just accomplished something that they’re proud of than to hear how they didn’t do it right. Yeah. Yeah. And so I would just say, for parents that have this belief, want this for their children, there’s schools out there like Action Academy, Wunder, and the idea of… Where can they go? We can put the links and so forth in the description of the video, but where can they go to find out more information? So to find out more information about Wunder, our website is daringtowunder.com. Daringtowunder.com. And can I tell you a quick story about where that came from? Sure. GK Chesterton. I read something from him a long ago in his essay on authority and education, and he said this. He said that even back then, one of the biggest problems that he saw was that the newest ideas were being taught to the youngest people, meaning that they hadn’t been vetted. These ideas hadn’t been vetted, but they’re somehow making their way into the school. And he said that’s the exact opposite. The oldest ideas should be the first things taught. And he said true education is to believe something so confidently, to know so confidently that it’s true, that you would dare to tell it to a child. And I just thought, thinking about what’s happening in the world today and how the new ideas are infiltrating quickly without being vetted, just going back to this idea of that you would know something so truthfully that you would dare to tell it to a child. I think that’s the appropriate guiding principle. Well, that’s a really good place to end, and it’s a very good time to end. So I guess what we’ll do is end. I’m going to thank you, everyone who’s watching and listening, for your time and attention. And I’ve been fascinated by what the Acton Academy and other sophisticated, advanced and forward-aiming schools have been doing. And I’m going to do an interview at some point with Kate Birbal Singh about her approach in the UK, which is quite radically different than your approach. And I was struck immensely by the success of her school. It’s a much more formalized system of learning, but as I said, there isn’t necessarily only one way to solve a complex problem. And it’s not like she’s not teaching her students to be autonomous, because she’s definitely teaching them to be autonomous. So that element is very much shared. But thank you very much for coming in and talking in more detail about what the schools are doing. For those of you who are watching, if you like this and you’re interested, you might also want to check out the discussion I had with Geoff Sandefur, which was more abstract in some ways. Part of the reason Zach and I wanted to talk was to fill in the anecdotal details and to describe in some more detail what was actually happening on the ground in the schools. And so I think that was very useful and also very interesting. I’d like to come down at one point and spend a couple of days watching your school just to see, because I’d like to see exactly what’s going on for myself. I also think that would be very fun. So maybe we’ll do something like that in the future. That’d be a good thing to plan. And so, well, your website again? Daring2Wonder.com. Yeah, and the Acton Academy website for further information. ActonAcademy.org. ActonAcademy.org. All right. Well, thank you for everyone for watching and listening. I’m going to flip over to the Daily Wear Plus side. You can continue to consider joining us there if you want to hear more about the background of Zach’s life, for example, and to discover with us what motivated him to pursue the path that he pursued, which is kind of what I do on the Daily Wear Plus side. You might want to consider giving them some support because, well, if you like this sort of discussion, they’re the ones facilitating it, and that’s real good of them. Thanks to the film crew here in Toronto today and Zach for making the trip up here. That’s very much appreciated. Thank you. And thank you all very much for your time and attention. See you soon.