https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=GmGOqkHQCIk
So, welcome to Voices with Reveki. I’m joined by my guest, Tyler Hallett. I’ve just met Tyler recently, and I met him through a Discord server that has been set up for people who are interested in my work. I wanted to talk to Tyler because when I had some conversations with him, he was saying some very insightful things about this whole growing movement around these communities that are taking shape on Discord servers and networks of them. And so, I think this is a very important phenomena. And first of all, if we could educate some people on it who might not know about it, and I’m just learning about it myself. And also to, again, try and explore maybe some of the philosophical implications of this. It’s not just a new technology. It seems like a new way of relating, a new way of community building. Anyways, I’m saying too much. So Tyler, why don’t you say a bit about yourself and, you know, start to unpack, you know, maybe in an introductory manner, you know, what these Discord servers are and what you see them doing, et cetera. Yeah, yeah. No, no. I think that’s a good point there at the end. I mean, the fact that what we’re doing right now, this kind of somewhat long form capacity to really get into the details of what we want to discuss and to not overly produce the content, right, to dive immediately into it, kind of expose it and unfold it as we’re doing it in the process. You know, from like where you are, University of Toronto, Marshall McLuhan, right? Right, right. It’s a message. It’s this, the very form of what we are doing here, I think, has an impact on it. And that, all right, so yeah, how I intersect in this historically, let’s say, right. I’m a single father and two boys. I have, I think I’ve become that as the result of some of the turbulence that is a part of the meaning crisis. The dissolution of the family as a result of a lack of a kind of bedrock that produced a heliology of the family as a unit of culture, as a unit of being. And also some ancillary problems with the way that we process all of the difficulties in our environment. I think, okay, so personally, myself, I suffer from a series of autoimmune diseases. And it’s, well, thank you. It’s been both a blessing and a curse though, as I think all things are, if you look at them from the right perspective, they afford, I think, a kind of chaos from which you can spin up something new. So to that end, I’ve, I think, been in the mindset of trying to uncover what it is that caused this in my own life. Right. And during that process, I looked into diet. Right. I looked into trying to understand what would be the underlying nature, the physical causation of my disease. I looked into some psychology and cognitive science, understand why it is that men and women fight. Right. Right. And I think where I ended up was a kind of very holistic view that tried to take into account all of the ways in which these very complicated systems interact, in particular, you know, systems like you and I, like my wife and I, right. And that study led me directly to people like Jordan Hall, then Jordan Greenhall, in fact. And I found much of what he said in the tech sector quite relevant to my own attempts to understand the world at the time. Yeah. Jordan’s very insightful. Incredibly. And very kind as well. Yeah. Both he and Daniel have been very kind. And Daniel Schmuckenberger is who you’re referring to. Correct. Yeah. And I think not to jump ahead too quickly, I suppose, but in contact with that world, in contact with the work that’s being done that I was completely unaware of. People in the world that were moving about in ways and understanding in ways that I had never even dreamed of. You know, the kinds of dynamical systems thinking that you can begin to analyze and understand the emotions in the world that is incredibly powerful. So yeah, I came across this information. I came across these thinkers and I’ve reached out to them at each case, I think. And I’ve tried to have a deeper understanding. I’m really here to learn. I want to learn how all this functions, right? Right. And try to influence it in a positive manner. I think that’s like my deep telos at the moment. So yeah, that’s my historical thread and how I interjected here. Since that time, I’ve noticed that, so maybe the definition of discord, it’s a social network. It’s an application that people can gather on and discuss in real time, both video and audio and share multimedia content in a stream form, kind of like a Facebook feed. But the possibilities that it’s affording this real time community development that is quite ephemeral, in fact, where the bonds are not one of locality, right? They’re not geographically defined. They’re something more like reputationally defined, which is inherent in the manner in which you communicate. Right, right, right. So again, the medium is the message. And so what we’re all having to learn is how to, we’re trying to level up our communication capacity so that we can, we can socratically and in dialogos, right, learn from each other what we really are and what we’re really searching for. So that process is being afforded by these platforms like Discord. It’s also producing something kind of tangential to another already like very dominant hierarchical structure which seems to be at the present moment failing itself in very particular sets of ways. And, you know, we can talk about that too, but maybe, maybe that answers the question. No, that answered the question well. I’m actually intrigued about the last thing you said, because you were implying that you think the Discord are restructuring, I think, as opposed to a hierarchical structure, some alternative kind of structuring of society and community building is forming. And do you think, does this mean that something like a new culture is emerging? Oh, for sure. Okay, so that new culture has been emerging for a long time. There are always several sets of cultures that are integrating themselves, kind of making most sense. Well said. Yeah. Right. They’re, you know, passing between each other. There’s, at the very least, there’s this very interesting high level separation between child culture and adult culture, right? Right. And like very specific, like interesting things that only get passed in one and the other, right? Like hopscotch. No adults play hopscotch anymore. Right. Right. She’s like, it’s a perfectly distinct cultural element that’s only transmitted in that layer. Likewise, for something like gaming culture, which is where Discord comes from, in fact. But there’s always been a kind of distinct element of the, it’s almost like a neotony, right? It’s almost like a continuance of the desire to continue playing games in the face of what is almost like a, just like a salient rejection by the current structure of the world. Right. And I think what that does is it prevents the kind of crystallization that usually occurs in the presence of a culture that you agree with. Right. When you kind of maintain this like childlike sense of continually looking and searching, it’s the, you want to open up the search space so you can support more wonder and more ability to find something that may actually work. Okay. So let’s slow down on that because that’s a really cool point. I like this, the metaphor of neotony, kind of cognitive and community neotony. That’s really cool because I thought of the importance of serious play that used to be at work in religion, for example, and tried to stay on that sort of, that, staying, you know, a continuity of contact without emergence. I think that’s really powerful. What I’m not quite clear on is what you’re juxtaposing it, what you’re contrasting with. You made a couple of allusions to a crystallized and a hierarchical structure. So maybe if you could show that comparison a little bit more, that would be helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in your work, like what we understand about our relations in the world is that in fact, the best way to look at being and moving in the world is something like the interrelationships that we have between self and other. Right. It or thou or however we want to describe it, depending on our mode of being or framework. It’s that interrelationship that needs to define it. And kind of science-ly, what this has to represent is some locus in the mind, right? It’s a representation of that attachment. And I think that there’s some set of substructures or processes that has to instantiate that. It’s very akin to the aphorisms that we have, like you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, right? It represents a kind of a… I think what it represents is just you finding your niche, ecological niche, right? Right. And if you don’t find your ecological niche, I think what happens is you’re stuck in a mode of searching. Right. We know that there’s a certain kind of hormonal change that takes place around like age 25. Yeah. It corresponds with like a final maturation of the frontal lobe that represents like a higher state of responsibility or something. So it’s something like that. I do think that there is a vast expanse of that in our dominant culture, right? A vast expanse of which? Of the crystallization or…? The rejection, sorry, the rejection of that crystallization. I see. This continual mode of wanting to play, right? Right. And that’s juxtaposed to a culture, I mean, I’m thinking of the work of Han and others that is oriented almost, you know, even from, you know, that our culture is dominantly oriented around work and even burnout around that. Right. So I’m getting a good sense of this now. So Discord is a place in which people are doing this serious play, but it has a deep developmental import. This is interesting. I think Zach Stein would like this. So it has a deep developmental import and kind of because the illusion you’re making reference to, of course, is in biological evolution. Neotony, what you can see is one way in which species emerge, right, is so you have like chimps. And when you take that chimp and their childhood gets extended much, much longer, you actually get something more like a human being. That was an overly crude and overly simplistic, but just to get the basic idea. So this ability to adaptively, because there’s lots of maladaptive ways of forestalling adulthood, if I’ll put it that way. There’s lots of maladaptive ways. But sometimes when so Neotony is the term for when we extend childhood in the period of serious play such that it comes adaptive. And one of the ideas behind this is our extended childhood allowed us to internalize much more complex culture. And that, of course, affords human existence. Sorry, I’m just trying to unpack. You packed a lot into that metaphor. Did I treat your idea fairly, first of all? No, I think that’s well said. Yeah. Okay. So then the idea is that we might have a cultural cognitive and cyber sort of constellation that’s creating an adaptive kind of Neotony for us in which serious play is being prolonged so that we can perhaps ramp up the complexity of the enculturation process, the kind of, you know, software that we have to, if you’ll allow me that metaphor, that we have to internalize in order to deal with an increasingly complex world. Is that, is that, am I getting what you’re saying? Yeah, absolutely. And more than that, it’s allowing, I think, as you’re discovering a potential place where you have, you can act as a node of resonance. Yes. Our sense making is failing in general because of the kind of, well, just some of the systemic failures of the broadcast nature of the medium. Right. It’s much better represented by this capacity to directly interact with your audience and to make it more local. Right. Yeah. And to make it more of a dialogos and a Socratic method. It seems that that is how we develop the kinds of trust networks that will afford us a true sense making in the social layer. Oh, I saw this is very good. I like the connection you just made there. So this, this new neoteny will actually afford us to restructure the cognitive and interpersonal processes by which we’re making sense. And that’s very adaptive because it’s very needed right now because the established frameworks of information transmission and knowledge generation are in many ways failing us. Is that also a fair way of putting what you said? Yeah, I think that’s very fair. I think a lot of people noticing that. Yes. They are sifting towards the edges. They’re finding either a kind of ever increasing madness. Right. And an ability to rely upon any certain element, right? The fake news trajectory of things. Or they’re finding from that subsequently a kind of nihilism. Right. Yeah, very much. And that’s certainly the element that the whole Jordan Peterson IDW movement is kind of scraping from. Right. There’s a huge undercurrent to that. Right. It represents a liminal layer. There’s definitely some transitional element to this that we’re moving towards a kind of sense making apparatus that we can rely upon and direct consequence of being integrated with this technological layer. Mm hmm. I mean, I’ve noted the fact to go back to McLuhan. I’ve noted the fact, I think, I can’t remember which one of the Weinsteins introduced this idea, but I sort of picked it up and ran with it a little bit independently. You know, the digital campfire. This medium is really weird because it breaks a lot of the standard sort of social grammar. I mean, your face is very large for me right now. No, is it? No, no, no, no. I’m not telling you to move back. That’s the point. The point is that I imagine mine is for you too or for the viewers. And normally this would, if we were actually physically present, this would convey all kinds of social meaning about status. And it would carry all this weird, you know, I just met you. This is inappropriate intimacy and all that kind of crap. Right. But the thing about this medium is all of that is just sort of, no, it’s thrown away. It’s developing its own grammar, right, of how people are. And I was thinking that it reminded me of, you know, the idea of Matt Rossano that, you know, we spend a lot of time through several species around campfires. And this is like a campfire experience and that people are lit because they’re electronically, they’re very intimate. We’re not actually spatially located and it sort of approximates like what you have in a circle. Right. And so it goes back to something very primordial. But so it’s tapping in some established machinery, I think. But it’s also using it in this really novel way, because like you said, and what’s really interesting for me is how this, how it’s, you know, symbol on to connect two things together that previously weren’t connected together. You know, the way this cuts across, you know, in the dialogues, Socrates is very critical of writing because, you know, it’s permanent. And then the person’s that there and you can’t talk to them and he wants to do everything in person. But of course, the problem with that is it’s very, you know, it’s very impermanent. And so that’s why. So Plato is ironically writing the dialogues down. And there’s the irony is intended. You’re supposed to pay attention to that. But I was thinking, notice how that divide has been transcended. I mean, this is this is one on one. You’re talking, but it’s also it’s also recorded and other people can then listen. And so these conversations have sort of a meta conversation going on between them with people moving between these conversations in kind of a meta conversation, which is like it’s beyond that divide. It joins them together and it affords something really new in how we can interact with each other. Right. Right. Right. And it’s a it’s a really interesting playground because it’s it’s I think representing both kind of postmodern tendencies with a kind of trial by fire. Try try anything and everything goes and also a more meta modern approach where people are searching for the connective tissue. Right. That’s kind of gathering and making more sense of the whole process. And what you’re describing there is very well said. And that’s I think just to to speak emotionally from briefly being embedded within it. Sure. It’s been quite it’s been quite wonderful to watch the direct impact it’s had on individual lives. The the meaning that they’ve personally been able to make at the bonfire. Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny that you you say that. It’s we we have several channels across several discords that are actually titled bonfire. Oh really. And in the late night we can sit and play music and talk with one another and speak concerning the issues of our soul. Right. Right. Right. And with this with this both top down and bottom approach where you have you have wonderful people who have done such good work like yourself. We’ve put it into the medium. Right. And it’s filtered down through the technology into the minds and the mouths of the people that are trying to make sense of it. And then we gather in small groups and speak of this is wonderful. And people have have at each moment recovered gems. Right. They’ve they’ve found little moments where they have hot. That’s what they’re saying. This is what it is. And this is what I’ve been doing my life. Now to your to your meta modern point and to this this meta extractable point. Yeah. There are people working on tools right now. People that I’ve come into contact with where they can take the content of this dialogue right here. Right. Where maybe 13 minutes in one person out of 100 had an aha moment. Right. And if you can take the transcript and somehow find a way to extract that piece of an aha moment and save it and transmit it in a way that it’s recoverable across time. Oh there are ways to do this and people are working on solving this problem. And I think that it’s a it’s a fascinating way to level up the capacity that we each have for finding insight. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that’s a defining feature of the logos right as opposed to combative adversarial where the point is to defeat and gain victory. The point of dialectic is if you and I can both get to places that we couldn’t get to on our own. Right. That’s the that’s the that’s the really central feature. If we both said wow because of that I got somewhere I couldn’t have gone on my own. And you say it too. And we don’t even have to have the same insight. It just could be that within that conversation we both come to have those kinds of insights. I think that’s the life breath of the. Maybe it’s akin to the reciprocal opening but yeah when you experience even if you don’t experience the insight directly but when you experience another person experiencing insight there is a dramatic transfer this immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Invoking that desire in yourself and then you become searching for it. You search for sensitive part of your salient landscape. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s well said. That’s well said. That’s really well said. Well said. So I really I want to go back because that really it really sparked me when you were and your gestures were quite dramatic in the good sense of the word dramatic. You know the top down and bottom up because I’ve been I’ve been I’ve been saying about how important that is if we’re going to actually make any any sort of cultural change that’s needed to address the meeting crisis. So what is it like. What is your role in that like in that sort of top down bottom up convergence. What are you doing like how are you participating. I mean because I met you. You were making a role. It’s actually somewhat. Sure sure sure. That’s perfect. It’s actually captured somewhat in my name. I don’t know if they can see the screen name there but it’s the plebiscite craft. The cognitive structures that we need to engender are related to the languages that we use. Right. Right. I think it’s deeply true that we when we develop these similar cognitive languages these these kind of structures that we don’t have to fight over all the time that we all. It makes life more meaningful and we can enter the flow state more readily. Right. Right. And so what we’re doing is at the top down bottom approach is we’re taking elements of two different perspectives. And then at that middle ground there has to be an exchange of the languages that develop between those two places. And historically if you take a look at the the the Hegelian dialogos of like say civilization and the collapse of it right. Like those those cultural elements which are conducive to corruption and destruction. I think a lot of it has to do with the kinds of separation the cultural separation tendencies where language groups kind of cluster around certain experiences. You know in our modern times this is more readily felt between something like rural and urban living. Right. Right. Right. Or male and female living. Right. But these language groups and language clusters become ways in which we battle with each other. I think the lingua franca space though. Right. The middle ground where we communicate the differences between those is really dramatically important. It’s a kind of cultural element that hasn’t been paid attention to. It’s a little shamanic perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a little bit translational where you take in all the cultural elements and you’re trying to find a way in which they are conciliant. Right. And so a plebiscoprat is the is the merger of the plebeian and the aristocratic right. It’s the merger of the world is to bring them together. So that’s the way we’re trying to do it. So in addition to the serious play there’s poesis going on there because I mean what you what you’re saying is you’re trying to create a mediating language that’s going to symbol on it’s going to join things together. Forms of discourse that previously haven’t been talking to each other very much. I do something analogous in cognitive science trying to create a bridging language. Yes. Right. Various disciplines synoptic integration. So I’m trying to put these two metaphors together and I think that’s the way I’m trying to do it. Because they feel like they’re very close to each other and I hope you can be able to help me on it. We’ve got one we’ve got this metaphor of the bottom up top down and then there’s the mediating realm and then with I take it that what you were alluding to is in that mediating realm was what is what’s also happening is this integration between different languages. So it’s acting as something that’s binding things together. So it’s not just a metaphor of the bottom up top down. It’s also happening is this integration between different languages. So it’s acting as something that’s binding things together sort of counteracting that centrifugal tendency you were mentioning that tends to like really put a stress on civilizations. Yeah. Put those together. Yeah. It may even be akin to something like how the the radical enlargement of the middle class prevented the ultimate outcome that Marx predicted. Right. Right. Yeah. So that’s a very interesting thing to do economic metaphor. So what like what what do you what do you I can hear people who are who are no experience. As you know I’m novice to this. I just got on thanks to the help of Brett and meeting you and your help. So concretely like specifically I know that you’re on several of these and like what is what do you do like you give a quick like what would you do if you’re on there like what what do you how are you helping. So these are very powerful and I and and and and important ideas that we’re talking about here. But I’m I’m asking you how do you how do you concretize them into specific actions practices like what is it you’re doing. Well a lot of it is the conversational approach. Right. A lot of it is directing people to a more balanced approach to conversation. Right. Right. Yeah. Being the middle ground is is the receiving end of you know both the positive and the negative. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. It’s and it’s it’s quite an interesting clash. You can see certain clusters of cultural elements like previously described as left brain and right brain things like that. When they come together in conversation it’s quite interesting. Right. Right. And there’s a really strange mediating role that has to be played by language that it has to be it has to make it apparent that the way that both groups are seeing the world are similar and useful. Right. And there’s a there’s a kind of representative element of that across all sorts of language groups. I think the development of a language represents you know some kind of cultural niche which is. Yeah. You know affording something some value and it’s true that you can recover that value through some translational process. And yeah that so I think it’s like parts moderation parts encouragement. It’s it’s a hobby for me. I’m not being paid to do it. So yeah I get that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just a it’s a fascinating and really like I say a wonderful thing to behold when people dive into what is true and what is deep and then recover a better way of seeing the world. It’s I think a reward in and of itself but I hope what it does is it begins to allow people who represent what should be the future of the developing world a way to converse so they can figure out how to do it. Right. Right. That that same thing is happening in think tanks all over the place. Right. I think that’s a very regimented and highly ordered way but I think there’s an extraordinary element of talent and skill and time that’s being lost in our in our current cultural space and this place represents a huge pool of talent a huge pool of interest. I could name two dozen names of fascinatingly strange and interesting people that are working on really cool things and they could probably never hold a traditional job. And I mean I could I could go for another hour or two at least on all the really strange and interesting ways that a platform like this court and others could be spun up to to make ephemeral ways of dealing with the world in terms of new corporations and new ways of doing capitalism and all sorts of fascinating little you know experiments that could be produced in this cultural space. But in and of itself the this represents a potential new educational medium. Yeah. It could represent I think in a very self-sustaining way a new educational platform right where people extract true education. Right. Yeah. Like what you’re able to do here now. The questioning and the answering in this direct translation. Right. There is no inter exchange. It’s affording some turbulence. We get it directly. That’s that’s new. That’s and that’s that’s something I think that we need to encourage and grow. And these things are quite large. I know I mean my friend Paul Van der Klee he has one. And I was impressed like we just started one and there was like 200 and something people on it. And like the first day I imagine on some of the other ones you’re on like there’s thousands of people involved and things like that. Right. Eric Weinstein and Lex Friedman I think are both over 10,000 people now. Right. Of course. And it’s their it’s their presence and when they come in and they it affords everyone direct close contact with a leading thinker in an industry. Right. And again this this capacity to make sense of the world to ask questions deep questions penetrating questions to do that on a human level. It’s truly something else. I mean well I mean I just I’ve done it the first time. Right. Right. And the questions were good and it was so exciting and I was getting into the flow state just participating in it. Yeah it was very very powerful. So I mean that’s interesting because it’s both quantitatively and qualitatively very powerful. I mean you’ve you’re reading right. Thousand tens of thousands of people. But each person is getting you know you know potential access to very high quality level of discussion and interaction. It’s very very powerful. And we’re working on ways to try to make it more efficient. Right. You can imagine like clustering reaction groups into ways where people can monitor reactions and be kind of sift the best signal to the top. Oh that’s a really interesting ways that you can integrate yourself with the distributed intellect of the crowd. Right. And it’s starting to develop its nascent right. You can see the edges of it. It’s really fascinating the way that people are reacting. And I really think there’s a lot of potential here for for the early stages of what everybody keeps looking for this this just this description of how technology is interwoven with the the collective intelligence right. The self organizing collective intelligence and what that is demonstrating as this is happening here on a place like this court. So this holds out something for me that I think that’s very interested in very concerned about which is trying to do something analogous with analogous to individual cognition with distributed cognition which is you know to transform intelligence into rationality which is a different thing. Right. Sorry there’s a Very loud jet passing by. That’s okay. Can’t really hear it very much on my end. So, you know, you know, intelligence is this very good. She said the self organizing sense making thing. But it’s also capable of a lot of self deception and a lot of, you know, deleterious patterns. Yeah. Yeah. And so what I’m interested in is again sort of the emergent You know, what are the virtual engines that are emerging. What are the sets of constraints that are coming into play. So that we get this process to be more than just self organizing that it becomes self correcting and it becomes capable right of, you know, noting and patterns that are deceptive self deceptive in some way and things like that. Yeah, some of the key elements are internal structure. So if you define everything in terms of like boundary conditions. Right. It’s quite clear that there’s an inside and outside. There’s a set of rules that governs that which happens on the inside. And there’s a manner in which you kind of translate resources inwards and outwards. As you take in food and you know, excrete waste. Right. Right. In marketplace dynamics. It’s something like the production of a product or waste. Yeah. So what we’re lacking here is a number of different things. I think When we’re lacking a clear incentive structure. It’s hard for people to understand precisely what to work on and how to govern themselves towards it. So the teleological elements missing a little bit. And part of that is because of Somewhat of a lack of integration of the top down approach. Where the nodes of expertise are acting as a way to guide the kind of distributed cognition that doesn’t have a clear structure that represents that expertise. Right. Yeah. And the other thing is, is that systematic internal structure which allows you to convey those resources in an efficient manner. Now that’s starting to develop. It’s also in a nascent form. We’re working on projects that are tangential to a cryptographic element, something that’s in that space called a decentralized autonomous organizations. Right. And the way that these kind of In form systems of voting and I don’t know exactly based on early testing how functional that will be Right. But it’s at least early foray into something that will look like the way in which people can kind of collectively organize their sense making On the technical aspect, right on the on the infrastructure itself. And so that that may be starting to develop to And I think third wise there there is as yet a failure of ways to integrate it with the actual marketplace of value. Right. Right. Right. Right. There’s there’s as yet an unknown way to take that product which is made by this right so what What is afforded by this. In other words, right. Let’s say it’s recorded whatever the recording gets demolished what you and I appreciate from this. Now can no longer be transmitted. Right. Right. But it exists. The value still exists. It just can’t be multiplied. Right. Right. Right. And that’s what That’s what we’re trying to do if we can. Because I think, like you said, that self deceptive element. It represents a friction. You’re right. It represents the turbulent elements of an attempt to reach the flow state. Right. Right. All those distractive elements that you have to keep Sifting through before you find the real thing and The ability to distribute moments of insight moments of value true moments of value, I think, is Is To counter the presence of that disinformation and disorganized thought and kind of diseased elements that pathological thinking that we see in our cultural landscape. You need a more rapidly both converting and diverging elements of thinking right needs both Yeah, no. I’m really impressed by that that there’s a there’s already well you’re at least exemplifying it. There’s already a degree of self reflection about how to bring in, you know, Ways in which the this whole dynamical system can self correct and improve and, you know, Almost something like aspire. I was going to say can grow, you know, it can right. You can It can afford Well, like I think it’s fair to say, it feels to me like you’re trying to move it towards collective Oh, yes. Yeah. Go ahead. And that that moving towards is more like a calling to Ah, that’s what I want. That’s what I was looking for. That’s what I there was something I wanted and you put your finger on it right there. There’s that you know that comes up in circling You know some of the conversations I’ve had with guys sense talking a sense of harkening the sense of the logos that some people are saying, you know, That’s emerging that’s calling you and you’re trying to be true to the logos this different, you know, this sense of, you know, maintaining that continuity of faithfulness of contact to this thing as it’s taking shape. Yes, very, very much. Very much. And it’s a fascinating process and difficult to describe is difficult to articulate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s, you know, that inability to name it the inability to put your finger on it or to risk it. Grasp it is what’s I think your attempt to grasp is what’s so fascinating about it right the way it just moves out of the way right and and but it’s so fascinating because you’ve noticed where you’ve been right you’ve noticed where your arm went and your attempt to swipe it. Yeah, and that’s that self right and then you reflect on that moment you’re like, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it’s very much it’s very much like when you’re doing Tai Chi Chuan and you’re sparring with somebody and you’re trying to do that. You know, Jordan Hall and I’ve been talking about this and we’re trying to bring back these notions of, you know, of an older notion of faith or at least a new notion of faith. I don’t know if it’s old or new. I can’t tell anymore. But that when you find in the Socratic Doctrine, you know, you’re trying to do that. Yeah, I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. I think it’s very interesting. It’s got elements of reason in it, elements of pobl3. It’s got elements of reason in it, elements of poetry. It’s got elements of reason in it, elements of poetry. Elements of myth. And then there’s that’s on the sort of the person side and then there’s this, like, you know, Krister and Master Pietro and I talk about like the geist, the third factor, the logos that emerges, and you don’t, and you know what exactly that is, it’s also something that’s constantly right It’s on the edge. When two people are doing that, right? Then you have those two motions, those two circling motions. Yes, yes. And that is truly, that comes closest to, I think, when some of the great philosophers would describe philosophia as the way of life, right? Is it true? Yeah. You, Daimonias, is it something else? I’m not a philosopher. It’s like, it’s that true being, that true essence of being, right? Totally, totally. It goes from being something you’re talking about to something you’re instantiating and participating with them. And you’re exemplifying a way of life and you’re beautifying it. You’re making it attractive to other people. That’s, yeah, and that’s all bound up together. So this, I mean, this leads me to the question. I mean, I’ve been- And it’s happening on a place called discord. Yes. Right? I love the irony of it. The beautiful juxtaposition of the kind of reversal, right? Well, I found the irony so socratic, you know? Right. Socrates looks like he’s always creating discord because he comes in and challenges and creates a poria, but people get drawn along nevertheless in this very powerful way. So as I wanted to say, this sounds so resonant with, convergent with, I’m not quite sure what the metaphorical verb is here, with this project that I’ve been wrestling with about the religion that’s not a religion and making it simultaneously scalable and rigorous, having a lot of the functionality that religions have for transforming consciousness, cognition, community, culture, but also not being enmeshed within the axial age two worlds mythology. In fact, it’s a different world we’re talking about here. We’re talking about this weird symbol on between the interpersonal world and the cyber world. It’s a different world. It doesn’t fit in the axial world, the axial age mythology. I feel like what we’re talking about here and the way I think it’s gonna connect up with these emerging communities of practices, like what Rafe Kelly is doing and people like that. I think, I mean, it feels to me like this is deeply convergent with what I’ve been talking about in the religion that’s not a religion. I mean, you’ll have to forgive me. Of course I’m biased. I’m gonna be looking for any signs that will confirm my hypothesis, but what do you think? In the, to use another metaphor, because I love them so. In the top down, bottom up approach, there’s a reason that we reached out to you, right? There’s a reason that these two worlds made contact, right? There was the supercharged elements of the, the electric cloud, right? And then the positive motions underneath and these little tendrils that send out modes of contact. And if there is something valuable here, right? If we demonstrate, if we truly demonstrate it, a spark of such power and heat and transformativity and plasma and energy will demonstrate itself such as we’ve seen over and over again, like that one small moment you came in and you demonstrated not to be too congratulatory for yourself. I think an element of what you talked about there, that ability to move in towards and away from and to deal with some of the people that spoke with you there that evening that not necessarily had something that was on topic, but you spoke penetratingly, you searchingly, like willing to go into their space and to question it, right? To interrogate it. And I really appreciated that and I was able to see it happen and that reflective moment made an impact on me. And now I will try to do more of that in my own being, right? So that was a wonderful affordance that happened in that moment, right? And you can think that maybe 5%, 10%, maybe more had that same experience. And to think of the way that ripples out and the way that cultural elements kind of mimetically transfer. It’s something that we need to recover that we’ve lost in the… I wanted to say the diaspora of our meaning, but I’m not sure what that would mean. That’s our wealth. It’s just been such a fracturing of things that have just splintered off and we have to bring them back in and recover them. Yeah. There’s a way to do that. And I think it’s starting to show up. There’s a way to recover what it is to be human and to really find out what it is to be more than human perhaps, right? What was meant by that. And I think it’s a really wonderful time to be alive. Well, first of all, thank you for what you said. I mean, I deeply appreciate you saying that. I was aspiring to do that when I came in. And so the fact that I might’ve moved towards achieving that is very encouraging to me. So thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. And secondly, what you just said at the end there, that was very beautifully well said. If you’ll allow me to compliment you, I think you’re an extremely good representative of this emerging thing. You are. You bring with it a presence and a personality and a nimbleness and acuity of mind and expression that I think is gonna be needed. I think you need to be a little bit more public. You need to, you know, talking more about this, which is why I wanted to do this, I think is very valuable. Like you did what I was talking about there. You articulated it in such a way that it was beautiful. Just in the markets, I mean in the plot. Right. No, no, and I didn’t wanna transactionalize it too much. And I’m well-received, thank you. Right. Thank you for saying so. I have been in the background a great deal. And I think, honestly, there are an extraordinary number of people just like me in the background. And we don’t seek the foreground so much as we seek to to strengthen the background. Right, right. And there’s a middle ground though, right? There is a middle ground. And I think maybe you found it, right? Like you might be in this little layer that isn’t, it doesn’t overemphasize the broadcast and it directly integrates with the way that it makes sense of the world. In fact, it generates that from the work that you’re engaged in, just the medium itself. So, yeah. To that end, it’s really a phenomenal process to be a part of. It is. I think the reason why I might be in that place that you’ve described is because it’s very similar to, I like to try and keep sort of as close as I can to my students. Obviously, I don’t mean in any inappropriate way, but I mean having, so that there’s a sense in which they feel that there’s not just a, you know, a non-sense of, you know, not just a, you know, a knowledge transmission relationship, but the potential for some degree of mentorship. Right. And so, yeah. Yeah, that’s very important. Teaching for me is a vocation. It’s not just an occupation. Well, so what was that? Is it the frost poem? Is it two tramps in mud time? Or when avocation meets vocation? There’s something about that place where you, where you found a place where you can do both, right? Where you can succeed in aligning the value of the marketplace with the value of your soul. Yeah. And that’s just, that’s a beautiful moment to find. And I think that more people could find it if we afforded them that process. And if we played around with that space a little more, I think we would find, there’s a lot of good to be had here. That’s a very, well, I think that’s a good place to end it. That’s a very well, very well said. Tato, this was such a great pleasure. I really enjoy talking to you. It really was all mine, John, thank you. Oh, well, thank you so, so much. Like I said, I think I would like to, if, I know you’d like to sort of hang back from the center stage, but maybe we could talk again like this. I would like that. Sure. Okay, thank you very much. You’re welcome. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you.