https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=RtkhjuB9azY
Jonathan, I think you’ve been great. I’ve learned a ton and I’ve had a lot of fun dialoguing with you as well. I wonder, are we able to at the end of the day say that within Eastern Orthodoxy and within Catholicism, that the way we treat icons would be virtually the same? Or do you, on your end, do you view perhaps any differences there? What are your thoughts on that? There’s definitely a difference. You know, Pope Benedict, in his book on the liturgy, he said that the West never fully accepted the Seventh Ecumenical Council. And he was right to say that. One of the things that happened is that in the West, they didn’t have iconoclasm. And so they never fought the images. And so icons were never attacked in the West. But for the same reason, they also never developed a theological justification and theological understanding of the role of images. And so because of that, it’s ambiguous. And that ambiguity is one of the reasons why it’s not clear, like, how what these images, what’s their role? Like, how do they participate in the liturgy? And so, for example, like, you’ll meet Catholics that are extremely comfortable with venerating images, about kids’ images, that’ll rub them, that will have gestures of veneration. They’ll meet Catholics that are extremely suspicious about venerating images. And so it’s because there isn’t a theological understanding of how to act and how they are sacred. Whereas in the Orthodox tradition, there’s a clear distinction which happens, which is that we venerate, let’s say, the means by which God reveals himself in the world, and then we worship God. And so in the same way that we kiss the icons, we kiss the gospel, we kiss each other, we kiss holy things, because we reckon, like, the same way that in the Old Testament, they would bow down before the altar or bow down before the Holy Holies. But our worship is attributed to God. Would you agree that, at least in my opinion, that perhaps maybe that suspicion, or maybe that, you know, because I do know people that would be, you know, maybe kind of avoid doing those kind of venerating activities. In my opinion, I think a lot of that has to do with how Protestantism looks at Catholics as being idol worshipers, and them kind of, you know, being really, you know, kind of drawing back and wondering, am I going too far? Do you think any of that plays a role in venerating icons? I can, the reason I think so is I had that issue when I came from Protestantism to Catholicism. Do you think that plays any part, perhaps, with some Catholics kind of drawing back when it comes to that kind of veneration? It’s possible, but I think it’s also, the story is much bigger. Like, it’s a larger, it’s a larger story. So the way to see it, for example, is to see that in the West, what happened was a kind of manifestation of extremes, like that really took over. And so, so you, like, for example, you have to understand that the Protestants, they were reacting to images of, like, naked God. They were reacting to, like, Michelangelo’s huge Zeus-looking naked God floating in, floating in the air and surrounded by, like, teenage nymphs and who is, like, touching Adam. Like, that’s what they were reacting to. And so it’s like, that’s the difficulty that because there were these extremes, and so they were reacting to, like, like Ruben’s super-eroticized images that are, like, this massive, like, flesh that is just, like, all these naked bodies, like, you know, in the church. So you have to understand how this is, this is, this is, and so- Different, different kinds of images exist too. Like, are you going to venerate that? Are you going to venerate an image that is eroticized? Like, it’s weird. And so, so it’s, like, all this tension that kind of- Different kinds of, different kinds of atmospheres is basically what you’re saying. Exactly. And so all of this kind of laid itself out and created these extremes of, of, like, extremely permissive, very almost eroticized art, and then extremely puritanical, like, no art, no images, no nothing because we’re afraid of this other extreme. And so, and so it’s like, that’s, I don’t know, that’s the, that’s the issue that I see. In terms of, like, actual veneration, I think the biggest issue is that, is that I think, let’s say, yes, Protestantism, but also people feel like they don’t have an answer because I have an answer, right, and the answer is Christ. Like, that’s my answer to people who tell me you don’t venerate images. It’s like, I can show you why Christ not only makes that possible, but makes it important, right? And so, and so I think that people need to, maybe if the Seventh Ecumenical Council was more imbibed in the tradition, then, then I think people would have an answer. Like, they could say, I don’t care what this person says, I know why this exists, like, I really do know. And it’s a, and it’s a theological, it’s not a, it’s not a compromise, it’s not a, oh, we’ll let the, we’ll let the ignorant people do this because it’s okay. No, this is a theological distinction, like, it’s a theological… Yeah, yeah, well, I would add to that by pointing out that the massive majority of Catholic churches and individuals I know do embrace the Second Ecumenical, no, Second, Second Nicea, Second Nicea, they do embrace it and they do do so for theological reasons. I would, I would add that. So, I, in my opinion, I believe those that are adverse to doing it are either people that have come from Protestantism as converts or people that are, really have family members and they’re worried, well, you know, maybe they’re gonna, you think I’m taking it too far. I said from my own personal experience, having seen that.