Hope - Ahmad - Embodying the Logos (v2qC85uuX4I)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=v2qC85uuX4I

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of I’m bodying the logos again with Achmed. We need to devote an entire episode for that. Yeah, exactly. We’re kind of having like a mini series going in relation to, well, transcendental things, I guess. And today he wanted to talk about hope. Actually, in some sense, that’s a subject that’s really alive for me. I was just talking about how it is relating to someone else who’s dealing with suicidal feelings. And how hope is really central in that, right? Because that’s what’s gone. Like, you don’t see a future. Everything is bad, right? Like everything is known as well. Like, you know exactly what’s going to happen. I don’t know how many times I heard that. And then it’s like, oh, yeah, maybe, right? Like, maybe that will happen. But even if it happens, like, is it going to be the same as in your head? And also, yeah, you probably can predict the future. So like, maybe you should. So yeah, that’s the two things from the negative side and from the heuristic side. Basically, you’re squishing your own hope, right? Like, obviously, there’s limitations that can crush things, right? It can crush the thing that you were hoping for. But then the question is, were you hoping for the right thing? And like, how bad is it that you don’t get what you’re hoping for? So I guess that’s maybe the basic framing that I want to start from and take it off. Well, it’s good that you phrased it this way. So we’re very resonant on the definition of hope you had that you don’t know the future. You don’t know how it’s going to happen. And if it’s going to happen, who said it’s going to happen the way that’s in your head? And I can even speak for myself for certain events that happened to me in the past weeks. I was obsessing over this yearly report that I had to submit to my supervisors. Took me too long to write this, way too long. It’s a stupid report. It’s a really, really stupid thing. All you have to do is just summarize the work you did, give it to your supervisors. But I kept on overthinking it because I had this expectation that the work was not enough. And I just assumed they’re not going to like the work. And I couldn’t let go of that assumption. So here the proposition was failing me big time because I knew that this is just a proposition and this is just a perspective that’s stuck and it’s not the true perspective. But it was just stuck. The reason why it was stuck is because I was protecting myself from that outcome, that outcome that I will be criticized. And as soon as I allowed it to happen and I said, OK, I might be criticized, it’s fine. It’s OK. That’s when the space happened. That’s when the space emerged for the better possibilities to take place. And so hope was this in this case, in this case, it was simply this shift in perspective of allowing the future to be delegating the future to itself, delegating the future to God, not just imposing an assumption of what’s going to happen and trying to protect myself from. Because the more I try to protect myself from an imaginary outcome, the more I end up making it happen. But that switch, that switch remaining, should I pause a bit? Should I pause a bit? Yeah, you can. I’m just thinking about what I’m going to talk about. Yeah. So to kind of bring it to a realization, not realization, kind of a more of a spice that I would add to the definition of hope. It’s not just that you’re allowing the future to be what it is. Hope is to be concerned about your role in the matter rather than the outcome with respect to you. So, for example, if you are going to be shot tomorrow, for example, because you’re standing for a cause, for a good cause, hope is to focus on how you are playing, how you are good for that cause without a concern of what’s going to happen to you tomorrow. That becomes hope. So it’s two things. The first summary of the definition or my understanding of your definition is hope is not a promise about tomorrow. It’s a realization that you’re still breathing in a battle that’s not yet lost. That’s the first one. The second one is that hope is not a promise about tomorrow. It’s a concern for what you can do for your role in the matter, for your role in the situation. Yeah, so it’s interesting. I’m hearing two things, right? One is that’s in the future, right? So in the example, it’s like, why are you dying? Well, you’re dying for something that you feel we’re dying, right? And then in that, you have a role. Yeah. And so in that, you can be in hope, because, well, the future is uncertain, right? So you’re not going to know the implications of your actions, right? So there’s an uncertainty. And in order to engage with that uncertainty, you need to make assumptions about the implications of what you’re doing. But I don’t like this being in hope framed as allowing the future to be, because that’s open-ended. I do feel that hope is actually specific. It is you binding yourself, I was going to say, to an outcome. But I don’t think that’s correct. You bind yourself to, I think cause would be better, right? Like it’s something that you’re serving. And in the serving, you hope that something manifests, right? Yeah. Yeah. In some sense, you’re burning something. You have agency that your actions are producing an effect. Right. And so I think the important part about the hope, because you could say, well, I guess you could have an open-ended hope where it’s like, God is going to fix everything, right? And you’re just going to go blindfolded. But then, like, how do you listen? Right? Like, how do you move? Yeah. You’re stuck, right? So there’s a, again, your agency is important in that expression. And so I think the hope is that which is furthest away from us, right? Like it’s the thing that we have the least control over. It’s on the horizon. It’s literally the horizon itself in some sense. That’s what we hope for, you mean? Mm hmm. So that which we hope for is on the horizon of our agency. That’s what you mean. Mm hmm. Okay. Yes. I would agree with you that there is a positive aspect to hope. And in that sense, which you mentioned, that which is on the horizon is less and less relevant to us. Because, yes, there is something on the horizon and you need to aim for that on the horizon. You need to aim for that uncertain duality with the hope that the positive outcome would come out. But there’s this paradox where you recognize that the outcome is not relevant. So what’s relevant in the present moment is the actions that manifest the outcome or that manifest the space for that outcome. So, for example, when I’m writing the report. Whether or not my boss criticizes me tomorrow is not relevant because that’s not helpful in writing the report. What’s helpful in writing the report is what information do I want to convey and what should I convey and how should I convey it? And it simply implies radical honesty and openness to what’s going to happen. But you’re still acting on the desired. The thing is, here’s the thing. It really also has to do with how you frame it. So when you’re saying that, let’s shift the example a little bit to do something that’s more familiar to me. Let’s say I’m talking to someone, to a girl, to a woman, for example, in the hopes that this will turn into a relationship. So there’s a vision that you would usually say. But if I enter in with this intention that I want to have a relationship out of this, there’s a big chance I’ll be disappointed. I’ll be setting myself for failure. But usually the general advice people give you is try to get to know the person, just ask questions to get to know the person. So you you you take up the framing that. Has nothing to do with finding a relationship, you just take them for what they are human being. And you act from there and that framing itself gives space for both outcomes. The failure and the success, whereas I want to have a relationship, it only it constrains the outcome to one one thing. It’s like you’re trying to make something happen and you’re trying to bring the horizon towards you. Whereas when you’re shifting the frame and making the outcome irrelevant so that the outcome is relevant. And that would guide your actions more because because then you are your action, your behavior space, your space for behavior, the configured space, space of behavior is wider because you don’t need to act only with that constrained framing of I want to have a relationship. What does that even mean? Whereas your your configuration space, space of action is much wider when the framing. Is wider when the framing is OK, I just want to talk to this person that involves the relationship, but it’s not reduced to it. So it’s interesting to me that I put hope on the horizon and I’m I’m listening to you and it’s like, well, OK, like this different things I can hope when I engage with a girl. Right. And. Basically, what you’re saying is if you have something that’s in the future, right, and and indeterminate, right. And also indeterminable because you don’t know that person yet. All right. You don’t know how you are going to like merge with that person. Right. Like, like you don’t have. A specific identity of that which you’re hoping for. Right. Like, it’s it’s so far removed that it doesn’t have intelligibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s also closer things that you can hope for. You could say I’m hoping to get laid. Yeah. And. When when you’re hoping to get laid. The path there is a lot clearer. Right. Like there’s there’s just like a couple of constraints, right, that you need to overcome in order to to manifest that. And so the way that you’re going to act. Is also more obvious, right? Like you’re you’re not going to be concerned with. Long term effects of your actions effectively. While if you want a relationship, that should be in some sense, your primary concern apart from multi-character off. Right. So. It’s. I OK, but. I’m not sure I agree with you. The framing I want to get laid. It works for people who have experience, who are good at this stuff. But suppose somebody like you have. You know, the inside culture. The inside culture, basically, they want to get laid, but they can’t. Why don’t they want to get laid? Why can’t they get laid? Because they think they’re not attractive enough, which is bullshit, by the way. And they think that they don’t have the skills for it. They don’t have the money for it. But if these people are seeking a relationship, then the space in which they can act is much wider. Because they don’t have to worry too much about making the wrong actions. Do you think so? I don’t know. Like, like, like, like both like you have the same individual. And both hopes you need skills. Right. Like that’s like any hope. You need you need skills. Right. And like, if you don’t have skills, like the way to realize your hope, right. To make you bring into reality is by becoming the person. That can manifest that hope. And in some sense, you have to have to create a vision of what that looks like so that you can start to understand what needs to happen in order to manifest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You need skills for both. Right. And creating that vision is also a skill. And I can tell you, like, that’s where I suck at. Right. Like, well, what’s your vision of this? I’m like, I don’t know. Like, I just do it. Right. Or whatever. Right. And it. Well, if we’re talking about empathy or whatever. Right. Like, this is a point where empathy is proper. Right. Like, you’re trying to put yourself, you take yourself out of your shoes and you cast yourself in a different situation. And then you’re going to see, well, like, what’s the thing that I’m going to run up against? Right. So, like, if I want to be an engineer, like, maybe I need to study because, like, I need to have a piece of paper. But also, like, if I walk around, like, I want to know what I need to do. So, like, if I don’t have the knowledge that is required of me, then how am I going to be an engineer? Right. So, that’s, like, really basic level of what a vision would be. Right. But it’s like, like, how am I going to be a person that properly implements knowledge? Right. That I’ve gained. Or how am I going to be the student that will turn into the proper engineer? Like, those questions are a lot harder. Right. And, like, at one level impossible. But at another level necessary. Because if you never go there, like, what are you doing when you study? Where’s the transformation within you that you’re looking for? Because that’s basically what you’re doing. Right. You’re looking to become someone. And you need to go through that process, whatever that means. Is this what you mean? I’m trying to figure out what you mean by you’re not good at defining visions. So, you mean the way I’m getting it is that it’s either the path is too abstract or the intention or whatever you’re aiming at is too unclear. Do I have it right? Because you said you just go for it. Which means that, okay, you have this faint idea and you follow it. You follow your nose. And then it becomes clearer and clearer what you’re trying to manifest. And then eventually it becomes clear. And this capacity to be placed in this subtle calling is the vision growing into a vision. Mm hmm. Well, maybe because the way that I’m thinking, right? I’m like really wide in what I’m accounting for when I think. So, in some sense, I can look really deep. Like, I look at something really far away. And then you can say, well, the path there is straight and narrow. Yeah. Right. Because there’s a lot of requirements because I have high expectations. Right. In some level, or at least on high aim. Okay. It’s already expectations. And so, when you aim further away, you tend to articulate things for yourself in bigger steps. Right? Because you just need to cover more distance. Yeah. And if those steps aren’t workable, like, then, well, it’s really hard to zoom in and zoom out and then relate that back to where you are and what you need to do. Right? So, like, I’m just thinking and I’m like, what is actually the mistake that I’m making when I’m doing this? And it’s like, well, I’m not looking close enough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because I think envisioning things is a skill. Right. And if you try and envision things that are too alien to you, you’re not going to be able to connect yourself to them. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you need to stay in connection with what you’re aiming at. So, the skill of making visions is having the capacity to make a vision that can be broken down into sub-hopes, which are approachable in the present moment. To bring long term to the short term. So, that the path ahead is not narrow and straight, but that counts for all the wiggles and all the ups and downs that go ahead. And that’s… Right. And you need to dynamically move between them. Right. Yeah. So, and the problem is for me, right, like I end up reciprocally narrowing, right, into something and this high row should reorient you in some way. Right. But if you can’t envision what the implications are in a moment, then like it’s dissociated, like it’s disconnected. It’s not integrated in some profound sense. And to go back, right, to the getting laid, I think the getting laid is close enough to actually have a feedback loop. Right. Because you can see you do something and you can see whether it brings you closer or further. While when you basically build something, right, like your studies, for example, it’s a lot harder to see how your actions in the moment fit into the giant picture. And I think if we go to the idea of materialism, right, like materialism is basically the falling into this concretized hopes, right, because what’s a concretized hope? That’s a goal. And then it becomes solid. Right. Yeah. Makes you solid along with it. Yeah. Yeah. I like how you expressed it. The goal is a concretized hope, an over concretized hope. I think I have a confusion between goals and hopes in my way and approach and the way I personally think. To go back to the getting laid part, something still is itching for me there. There in that getting laid, get laid. When the framing is so narrow that all you want to do is get laid, then it gets tricky because then the whole world is defined based on that. Well, I think that’s what the hope does, right? Like the hope informs the world. Yeah. But that makes things narrower because when you’re holding… No, not necessarily. Because the hope is materialistic in this case. In this case, yes. Yes. It’s a materialistic goal and that narrows things down because then you are going to be defined by your skills and your physical attractiveness, which is skills fine, can be worked on, physical attractiveness cannot be worked on. And if you do not have that playboy thing going on, you’re screwed. Not that you’re screwed, but then you’re not only defining the person in terms of what they are to you, you’re also downgrading yourself to just a lump of flesh. And that’s basically setting yourself up for hopelessness if you’re not gifted. Unless you have the skills and the physical attractiveness, you’re setting yourself up for failure. But… Yeah, well, maybe because like again, right? Like there’s nothing that says that like if you’re skilled, right? Like whatever that means, which means highly versatile in adaptation. And you keep picking things that are close enough so that you can actually reach them, right? And you keep picking things that keep you alive, like enough. Yeah. Then there’s nothing preventing you from living your life that way. That works if you’re lucky. If you’re lucky, if you’re lucky, that’s the thing. But you have a point that when you set up these smaller hopes, you might actually get some, you might actually be able to build up the skills to get laid. And then at a certain point, you have sufficient skills to survive, right? Like I think a lot of people live like that, right? They just found a niche and then they optimize for their niche. And that’s all fine until the flood comes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That’s the thing. But that’s an entirely different question in this case. I mean, because what’s still itching is that when you have the hope of developing these skills, you still need to account for the fact that the person is a person and that you need to have this fluidity when interacting with them. You need to have this delegation where you’re delegating their opinion to them. So you’re throwing up a flirt, you’re throwing a sentence to flirt with them and then let that seed grow as it may. But that’s not necessarily true. Because what you’re talking about is a type of relationship that you idealize. There’s different ways to have relationships. Yeah. Like things can be held together, right, by someone’s need for validation versus someone’s capacity to provide. So you provide me with the safety and the opportunities that I need and like, and I will validate you in your insecurity. And as long as like that isn’t challenged in a profound way, then that would just exist, right? Exactly. It would exist. It would exist. It pretty much exists. In this case, hope can be damaging sometimes. Right. Because hope will break that, right? Because hope will basically state that that dynamic isn’t enough, right? And then one of the two pieces starts moving and then the, well, the integrity or the little integrity that that structure had will be challenged and it will break. And then the other person has to move along. And the problem is that that usually it can’t happen, right? Like that to have two people who who basically receptively narrowed on, like I see it as survival, right? Like it’s emotional survival. Like I have an insecurity about being provided for and like I’m just holding on to this person and that person has an insecurity about not being loved or whatever because I don’t think love is the right word, right? Like not getting attention or affirmation, right? And if that falls away, right? Or if that’s not met, then despair enters, right? All this baggage that that was held away by this validation is now in your face and you need to deal with it, right? And like I like this thing that Mark brought up. He was talking about the atrophy of skills. Like if you don’t upkeep your skill, you’re going to lose the capacity. And so if you have a dependency and you’re not working on that for like 10 years or five years and now it falls out from under you, you’re screwed. That’s existential level threat, right? And then you can see how that bites, right? Because like that’s just you’re incapable of dealing with that problem. Like you’re just incapable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, atrophy skills, something. I mean, I myself have been locked in such a relationship. And I can tell you, there was some atrophy of certain skills of relating with the world that I had to recover with time after that relationship, because the dependency itself, it’s been like a drug. You become locked up in this frame and your capacity to relate to the world outside of that frame. It does atrophy as well. You incubate with your own thoughts and begins to wither down if it’s not exercised. But still you would still, you still, I mean, you said it yourself that when you, so let’s say that this is a relationship that’s based on validation. It’s a codependent relationship, right? And then it’s challenged. It’s challenged. The woman can no longer provide validation for the man. And then in order to have hope in the relationship, the man has to let go of that definition of the relationship. They have to acknowledge that now the relationship will either stop existing or it has to be redefined. So in this case, hope, even though the intention is to get laid or to get validation, the validation has been placed in a wider frame of what it really means, because the man was trying to seek validation, is trying to have validation, is actually trying to be a worthy person. So somebody trying to have validation is trying to be a worthy person. And the hope in this case, by letting go of this need for validation, by making it an option, not a must, is re-situating it in this wider frame. So going back to the person who wants to get laid, they want to have sex. Oh, hold on, like, because they might actually not be worthy. They might actually not be worthy, absolutely. I just want to say that because that’s a problem, right? It’s not like, oh, you can let go of this fear of not being worthy because like, it’s not a fear, it’s real. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it can be real. But that’s the whole point. Hope remains healing because by opening up to the possibility that you may actually not be worthy, you’re responding to a calling. You’re responding to the call to worthiness. And instead of numbing it down with validation, you’re really figuring out where that need for validation comes from. Yeah, well, maybe you are. Maybe, you never know. It depends on the person. But that’s my point. Maybe you’re trying, right? But even if you’re trying, you might not find, like, that’s the problem. Even if you’re trying, you might not find it. The fact remains that we said that hope entails that you become someone, right? And that’s what you’re trying to become. Because Nietzsche said something about hope, right? Because he was putting in his story, it was like hope was the last thing that remained in Pandora’s box, right? Like, it was one of the, what was it in Pandora’s box? Plagues or whatever, like something like the plague, right? Like it was disasters, right? Like I think it was fear and all the negative motivations, emotions, right? They were in Pandora’s box and like he put hope in it, right? And so, like, hope can be two things, right? Like if you have improper hope, and I talked with Sally about this, right? Like hope is represented with an anchor, right? If you have a positive framing, right? You anchor yourself in hope and you hold on, right? Like the wind will sway you, but like you keep in relation to the hope, you make sure you don’t drift too far, right? An anchor is also something different, right? Like, yeah, it can drag you down. Like if the waves are too high, it will actually drown you, it will drag you under the waves, right? You can also see it as a cross, right? Like an anchor, you have to carry that sucker around, and that’s some heavy burden. So, like the hope, and like this is, again, if we go back to the dependency, right? Like the weight of having that hope is too big, because it will shatter, it will shatter your fake reality, right? Like it will put you in existential crisis to have that hope. So that’s actually a thing that you shouldn’t touch, and like to go to this idea, right? Like some demons should be left alone, right? Like sometimes you need to build your ship, before you can engage with the anchor. Right. Before you can engage with the anchor. So what you’re basically saying is to having hope and an unhealthy relationship going on might weigh you down, that’s what you’re trying to say. No, like I’m saying that there’s no good answer. There’s no good answer. Like, there is no direct pathway from A to B. So if we’re looking at people in the meaning crisis, right? They can’t go from the meaning crisis to go. Yeah. Like that is a step that is impossible. Like I’m just going to make that claim flat out. Like you can’t do it. No. You need to visit some waypoints, and you need to build the skills, the awareness, all of these things in order to even have the receptivity to engage with the idea of God. And if you don’t do these things, you’re going to end up in wrong relationship, right? You might achieve things, right on your path, but you’re going to be unintegrated or fragmented. Yeah. Like I look at it, right? And I see like an atrophied something, like a walnut, right? Like it’s shriveled. Yes, that’s the word. It’s shriveled. And then you’re trying to pour water on it, right? You’re pouring water on it with a blindfold, right? And something might grow. And then you get this one thing that will like, yeah, over the whole thing. And that’s probably manifesting as dogmatism. Yeah. You’re disproportionately trying to raise faith when you need to proportionately grow the plants one by one so that they can grow together and integrate. And I agree with you fully on that. I think that was one of my, that might’ve been what I slipped into the past few months in our talks. I went too quickly in and I kind of, I did happen to go, I did slip into dogmatism. It was indeed dogmatism where I slipped into it. Like there were things which were not ready to integrate with me yet. It goes back to what Christ says. I forgot the, I don’t remember the exact wording of the verse, but I mentioned it on the series before. Christ was asked, why do his disciples fast, but other people don’t fast. And he said something, when you add an unshrunk cloth, to a new cloth, it will tear everything apart or something like that. That’s what I’m relating this to. And I suppose the way this ties into hope is that if you have too high hopes, it’s like you’re lighting a very, very bright light into your eyes. You need to take it step by step. The hope needs to be broken down into some hopes before you over inflate yourself into a reality where you’re not ready to become yet. Into a person that you haven’t become yet, that hope. Wow, that actually resonates with me very, very much. Would you say this is a false hope then? No, I think it can lead to false hope. You could have a hope for having a family, right? I don’t think that’s necessarily a false hope, even if you’re an ass. Like that can become real, but if you identify the step as trying to get laid, then maybe you’re not on the path that can generate a wholesome relationship. And the way that you relate to the hope, the way that the hope gets envisioned, it gets bodies, it gets built in, is something I’m going to do again. This overgrowth, there’s this aspect, being married means that I get affection and have sex or something. You hyper-focus on that. Or being married means that I can be the provider and she should be completely dependent on me. And that’s a false hope, right? Because now you’re misaligned with reality as a consequence of the hope. This is really good stuff. This is really good stuff. So in a sense, hope is also a skill in this case, because you want to have hope in a situation, but the question is how are you going to frame the situation so that the hope you have is healthy? Going back to the codependent relationship, if your hope is too large, I want to keep this relationship, this abstract, ambiguous goal. Then you get this overgrowth where the validation becomes more and more the center of the relationship and then you’re reciprocally narrowing into and getting stuck into this relationship. Whereas another short-term hope could be something like, okay, I may not get validation from this person tomorrow, but at least I want to become someone. But no, then again, that’s also linked to the false hope. I kind of get what you’re saying, but I’m having difficulty bringing it back to this example. It’s hard. It’s hard. Yeah, it is hard. That’s exactly the problem, right? That is exactly the problem. It’s like, how are you going to navigate this landscape right now? Right, because it’s not obvious. When you rock the boat, the boat won’t rock. So what do you need at that point? You need faith. You need to be bound. And you need to both go for it. In some sense, you both need to basically sacrifice. You need to die in each other’s arms. Wow, that’s actually beautiful. I know. We do need to die in each other’s arms, which is a very gruesome picture, but it’s actually kind of what needs to happen. And then what? You need to start at zero. Can we play with this a bit? Can we play with this example a little bit? So my habitual answer is to find a hope which… How do I put this? It’s to find a hope which reconnects me with God. In that sense, okay, the validation is not coming. The relationship is threatened, but I’m not reduced to this relationship. I am first and foremost defined and dependent on God. And then I am no longer limiting my identity to this relationship. So I’m opening up space. There is the vision I had, but there’s also all the other options because they’re both contained in the me that is defined under God that is not limited by the relationship. Yeah. How do I respond to that? I see where you’re going. What is the question? Well, not what is the question. What is it you need to do? That is the question. Yeah, that’s a good one. That’s a good answer. So you need something that can hold you so that you can become the other thing. Right. So I think because what happened is something is holding you, right? But that something is holding you in place. Maybe it’s even using or abusing you, right? And in order to liberate yourself from what is holding you, you cannot start running towards the horizon, towards your home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I just imagine, right, because you’re looking up to the thing above you, right? And you started walking, your head tells you to fall backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I got what you mean by that. It is also an overly ambitious kind of book. I think with me because I’m used to, I have my symbols. I have my symbols of what that means for me. So that’s for me, that’s a very simple thing. It’s a narrative that’s already well integrated in me that I simply tend to forget sometimes. So for example, there’s the very, very simple, all comprehensive meta-orientation of living because you want to purify your heart and later meet God. That’s the meta-orientation, that being cultivating virtue for the sake of meeting God, meta-orientation. And that’s basically where you go back. So whenever this relationship is, you’re stuck in this parasitic relationship where validation has become the center and now you want to liberate yourself and go take something else that holds you. So you need the framework that holds you, right? And one alternative is religion. Then you jump out of that framework and go back to a framework that’s close enough to you, a system that’s close enough, which is religion basically, which is a set of symbols and practices and meta-orientation that is accessible to everybody anywhere, almost everybody anywhere, to those who are willing at least. So that whenever you find yourself, that your world is threatened, you have this mattress, you have this home, the spiritual home to go back to, to home yourself back. Well, so the associations that I make is like, well, you have this thing above, in order to replace something that’s above you, you need something that’s high. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You keep going back to that thing. So like, any solution that brings in something higher has the ability to affect change, right? And then the question is, what is that which is higher, which is also wholesome, right? Or good. So that’s one side of the equation. But you also have the other side of the equation, because you built your house in sand, and you’re going to have to build it on rock. So what is this rock that you’re going to build upon that can hold the structure that you’re going to need to build, right? And so if you don’t have both of those, you’re going to be screwed at some point again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so if you want to see what people are doing, right, like, I think this framing is like, really, really useful, right? Because they’re like, well, you’re stuck here. And then this will bring you salvation, right? And then, well, sometimes they only account for one side, right? So one is like, just build your house. And the other one is just, maybe just pay attention to this, right? But you need both, right? And then, like, if you’re going to get both anyway, because that’s necessary, if you accept that framing, at least, then you’re going to need you’re going to need them to commune. And you need them to be as far apart as possible, but still integrate. Like, if that’s, if you look at what systems have that, that’s going to have to be religion. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly it. It’s like you said, it’s something that’s encompassing, wholesome, it includes your situation, but it also integrates it together because precisely because religion is what is a system that integrates all of your aspects, your life, your life together, basically integrates you together, it creates your relationships together, it gives you the standards, it gives you the measures that you need. And so it’s a close enough, higher, higher goal that threads everything together. And that’s, that’s been always my go to, when whenever shit hits the fan, it’s like, okay, what’s the bigger picture? How does this fit together? How am I not imprisoned by this? As simple as that, this is my bigger picture. This is where the faith goes in. It’s where the hope goes in. I’m not defined by whatever it is. So in the worst case, if I have to go to prison for some mistake that I did, I still have this all encompassing frame that fits even in the prison. I still survived it. Yeah, and I want to bring in the dying into each other’s arms, right? Because like, what, what do you do, right? You fall onto the same place. Yeah, you’re, you’re, you’re at the ground. Now you can rise together. And that’s, that’s what you need to do. And like, that’s also right, like, I was, I was thinking about community building and all these things, right? And this binding and how binding yourself as such is like really scary. Yeah. And the, the binding itself the binding itself is, is a constraint, right? Because like, if you race together, you’re going to fall together, right? Like, so that, that’s, that’s a problem, right? So, so if, if you’re fast, you feel held back. If you’re slow, you’re, you’re anxious because, because the expectations, the implied expectations, at least, so there’s something there, right? But then at a certain point, you can feel the rise, right? And you end up somewhere here. And you’re like looking down and you’re like, oh, shit. I don’t recognize where I am. And yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It’s also kind of scary. Yeah, you can get afraid of that high too, right? And, and one, and then we, we can go to things like gratitude, right? Because like, it’s like, oh, what’s holding you up there? Right? Like, it’s like you’re, you’re, you’re like, that’s the guy, body coyote going up the cliff, right? He keeps running. Or you’re like Peter walking to Jesus, right? And it’s like, as long as he’s walking, it’s all fine. And then he’s like, wherever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s the scariest part. It’s like, shit, what have I been doing so that all of this is coming together? And then I start overthinking it and then I destroy everything. But yeah, that’s, that’s, that part is very difficult for me to, to, to, to recognize that I’m standing high right now. And all I need to do is keep walking. Because somehow I can’t accept that hope that if I keep walking, and I think it has to do again with defining yourself with where you are by refusing to die, you start clinging to that, wherever you are, and you end up falling anyway. You can look at it this way, right? You’re anchored in hope, right? Like, so you can, you can look at this chain going up, right? Now it’s holding you up above the water, right? And then when you look down, right, like when the framing is no longer expectant of the hope, maybe that’s the word, right? Like, you’re expectant of a future. Yeah. Yeah. And when you stop expecting the future, that hope gets replayed. Yeah. Like you hold something else there. And, and when you hold something else there, like, well, a lot of things change. Because, because now, like, like, what’s organizing the world at this point? Right? Like, it’s, it’s no longer, how do I get there? It’s, it’s, it’s, again, I see this chain around the neck, like, pulling you down, like, on, on your knees. It’s like, like, what’s holding me down? Like, like, I’m, I’m supposed to fly, but I’m trapped. Like, I’m never gonna fly again. Right, right, right. I’m, I’m linking this right now, this metaphor, the beautiful metaphor, by the way, of being chained down by your hopes. Because that was, there was something was happening to me because I was stuck at some point hoping to become this person who is able to fit in all of these spiritual practices from, from Verveki’s videos into my routine. I was stuck there. And that was, you know, what was happening, I, I, there were very obvious things I could do, like going to a forest on Saturday to, to set my mind free or just simply breaking out of my routine to stop being so bogged down on, on something that’s where I’m stuck. But I had to snap out of it all at once, release the practices, release that hope. And surprisingly, surprisingly, I didn’t lose out on much. Surprisingly, what I was trying, the outcome that I was trying to avoid by holding on happened when I let go. That makes any sense? Like, it was the holding on to that hope of refining my attention that was screwing up my attention. Because I was just, just doing it like this. Yeah, like, okay, I, I get the point. I see that you’re constructing a narrative, and you need to be careful about it. Yeah, yeah, that’s true. I mean, tell me, tell me where. So the first thing I want to say is hope becomes a judge. First of all, can you, can you say what you meant by you’re constructing a narrative to see if I understood you correctly? So, so you’re, you’re, you’re telling me a story about what happened to you. Right? Like, I’m hearing you say a bunch of things, right? So you’re saying, I had this hope. And, and then like, I, I felt oppressed by this expectation. And then I let go of the expectation and my hope happened. But I don’t, I don’t believe your hope happened. Okay, so, so I’m associating things together that may not have been associated with each other. Right. Okay. Okay. Because, because you’re anachronistically right, you’re like, oh, I’m at the place I want to be. Right. And then you’re like, well, I want it to be at the place I want to be. And I was like, well, did you want to be at that place though? Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. I see what you mean. So, so in a sense, yes, in a sense, yes, I did want to be in that place. But back then, my image of that place, my vision of that place was distorted. Yeah. Is that the same place? It’s a different place, but it’s, it’s the, the correction of the intention, the correction of the direction. So it’s, it’s like having a dream world. But I think, I think it’s important to get that clear, right? Because it’s like, yeah, for Vegas, like, yeah, everything are infinitely similar and infinitely dissimilar, right? Which I don’t like, but like, there’s a lot of ways, because we need to look at the relevant ways, right? Like, there’s a lot of things, relevant framings that can bind two categories or two ideas together. And there’s a lot of relevant framings that can distinguish them, right? And the problem with, oh yeah, like, I think, I think I generally have a dislike for this. But this is interesting. The problem with making them the same is that when you make them the same, you lose sight of the distinction. And the distinction is what is relevant. Right. Like, like the sameness, like, I don’t, I don’t really understand how the sameness would be relevant. Now I get what you mean. I understand what you mean. It’s important to foreground the distinction, because otherwise you don’t learn. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s definitely important. Because, because, like, if you’re focusing on sameness, you end up with this, with this, because everything is one crap. Right. Like, like, yeah, you’re, you’re, you’re going through the same experience I am. It’s like, yeah, on some level, right? Like, yeah, you also had a hope. Right. Like, oh yeah, yeah, those categories definitely also fit you. Right. It’s like. But how are they different? Yes, that fully agree, fully agree with that. It’s very, very important thing to keep in mind, especially when you’re talking to someone who’s going through something difficult, because if you just focus on the same, then you’re blending the other person out, that you’re blending the uniqueness of their experience out. Right. If the same is perfect, I’m making notes because I need to do something with this. Okay. Okay. Because that’s what’s happening around in these conversations. Right. Yeah. We’re talking about the perfect, right, which is, which is betterly said as something fulfilled, right, than perfect. Because, like, perfect is, it’s complicated, because it would be the fulfillment of fulfillment or something. That would be perfection. Right. While fulfillment is, is sufficiency. Right. Like it’s, like, my wife can be a proper wife, right, without being perfect. Yeah. Right. She can fulfill her role as a wife. Yeah. So, like, the perfection is, like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t even know what that means. Right. Like, but there is a perfect wife, right, like, at least the idea of it, right. And like, maybe, maybe that idea can not have a body. Like, who knows, right. Or it’s married, right. Like, I guess that’s what the cat likes would say. But, but this perfect wife is, is unattainable. Right. Like, it’s, and because, where do I want to go? Oh, yeah. If, if you also want a perfect wife, and I want a perfect wife, and, and we’re sharing our want for perfection, then, like, like, what is the world? Right. Like, like, like, like, how does the world look like? Because it’s not, no, no, we all want the same thing. But we don’t want the same thing. But we do. Right. Like, we’re yearning for the same ideal, but not, it’s not the same yearning. The thing is, you run into the same problem with the fulfilling wife as well, because then you also want the same thing. No, because what fulfills me, my, what, what, the things that my wife fulfills would be different than the ones that you, because, like, if, if, if I need my wife to drag me out, right, like once or twice a week, so that I do stuff, and you don’t need that, then if a wife without that could be still fulfilling for you, but not for me. So, so the fulfillment has this transjective aspect, where she fits together with you. Whereas perfection is a very subjective and self-enclosed aspect. Well, perfect perfection has to do with achieving the ideals. The ideal, the ideal, whether it’s realistic or not realistic, whether it has a body or not, doesn’t have a body. I have a way of thinking this back to hope, but it’s, it’s slipping out. Give me just a second. Right, right, right, right, right, right. I think I need a more concrete developing of what, what a fulfilling wife is, because, because what I’m, what I’m seeing now, what I’m getting here, linking it back to my own experiences again. So when I’m looking for the perfect person versus when I’m looking for a person who fits together with me, in the part where I’m looking for a perfect person, that’s like me when I’m, when I have that vision and I’m stuck trying to fix my attention with all these practices. So I have this picture and I’m trying to find that picture out there. I’m trying to impose an image on reality. Whereas when I’m looking for a fulfilling wife, I am open to the possibilities and I’m allowing the other person, I’m forgiving the other person for who they are as they are, that they are not meeting this ideal. And therefore, you don’t see how forgiveness falls into this. You don’t see how forgiveness falls into this? Well, like, okay. So what I’m hearing is you can reason downward from the ideal. And there’s something to be said for that, because like the book, The Republic of Plato is basically set up so that you can climb up to the ideal and reason downward from the ideal. But the problem with The Republic is that it doesn’t tell you how to manifest the city. Like it just says, like, these things are necessary because they’re important. It doesn’t tell you how to do it and how to know that you fulfilled that requirement. Right? So it’s descriptive of an ideal, but it’s not prescriptive. Not prescriptive. It doesn’t tell you how to do it. Right. And like, what is prescription? Right? Like a prescription is how you get to some place. Right? Like, yes, yes, yes. It’s giving you the steps to follow. And what does that mean? Well, that’s building from the rock. Right? Like, that’s what you do when you’re following a prescription. And the building from the rock has different points. Right? Because I’m thinking about an apothecary for whatever reason. Right? And they have to make this solve. Right? So they have to mix these ingredients together, and then they have to dissolve the ingredient in this thing because else it wouldn’t mix properly. Right? Like, whatever. Right? So you cannot have the end result in mind because in relation to the end result, the dissolving powder in alcohol before you put it in the fatty cream is like, how does that relate to the end cream? Right? And you could see, like, oh, yeah, I have this blue powder, and if I dissolve it in alcohol, it becomes purple. And then I put it in the fat, and it becomes yellow. Right? It’s like purple and the yellow. They don’t make sense together. Right? So it’s impoverished to think about the perfect cream when you make it green. And I think that’s the thing that you were trying to get at. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. I don’t think, I think, because I think you mean something different from what I mean when I say ideal cream. Because when I’m talking about ideal cream, I’m not talking about the one that fulfills, not fulfills, that has all the qualification, that has the list of qualifications that I need. I’m talking about the idea of cream. What function it’s supposed to fulfill. What makes the cream a good cream. So yeah, but that’s how you judge the cream, right? Sorry? That’s how you judge the cream. That’s how you judge the cream. Exactly. The measure by which you judge the cream. But I agree with you fully. I agree with you fully. Then there is a cream that lives up to that measure. Right? Yes. There is a cream that lives up to that. No, wait, wait. From there on, it’s degrees. It’s degrees and go up to infinity. No. Why isn’t there something that can actually do it? So now my engineering personality is coming into this. For example, I don’t know if you studied thermodynamics. Because thermodynamics gives you a very, very good example. I know that we might not be able to make it, but that’s a different problem. It can’t exist. So what you’re saying is that there is a thing which embodies the ideal totally. Right. Else the ideal isn’t sensical, right? Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I’ve never I used to think of it this way. Then I stopped. Now I’m reconsidering it. Like I believe we’ll never get there. Right? But like that doesn’t mean that it’s not existable. Existable. I need to that’s kind of for me that’s a bit of a tangent with well I don’t know if it’s maybe. But the point is I guess the question is why is this important? Yeah. What I see from this, the threat that I’m seeing here is that there’s an ideal which is hoped for or a vision, but it’s useless without a prescription. Without what do I do from here from my limited perspective? How do I bind the two together? And this is a very crucial element of hope. It’s binding together. And I think there is no hope without it to be honest. Because you become hopeless if your hopes are perfection. Right. Easily become hopeless if your hopes are perfection. Right. And so like what is the binding in some sense? It’s you seeing a path. You seeing a path. Agency. Which is basically your agency. When you lose hope, right? Like when you fall into despair, you don’t see a path. You don’t see a path anymore. That’s a really complicated skill. To be able to. No, it’s actually not that complicated. You think so? Because it’s really simple, but it’s not on the level of the problem. Like if you want to resolve that issue on the level of the problem, you can’t. Because that’s why. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to adopt a wider framework in order to be able to solve it. Right. That’s the hard part. But like in some sense, it’s really simple. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it’s just superseding the moment by embracing your hope. Like like it’s in some sense, it’s simple. It’s like I’m not the person that does this thing. Right. Like I’m the person that’s going through the hole. And like it doesn’t matter what’s in front of me. That’s holding me back. Like I’m just going to run in there and I’m just going to do what I need to do. Like that’s the answer. It’s like, yeah, well, I don’t dare to do that. It was like, yeah, fine. It’s not that difficult of an answer. And it’s like, you’re going to have to do it anyway, or you’re going to have to give up on your hope. And it’s like, yeah, you’re willing to give up on your hope. And that’s the conviction. Right. It’s like, okay, like I’m going to have to do it anyway. Like I can stand around there and not laugh like for like five years and then do it. Or I can do it now. Yeah. Or I can do it now. But to go back to the ideal, right? Like I agree with you that thinking about this perfect instantiation of the ideal is stupid. Right. Because like thermodynamics. Like I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What’s coming? Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. So, but that’s why I said fulfillment. Right. Because the ideal is there in order to achieve a thing. And the thing can be achieved without the perfect instruction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As long as you’re adopting the instruction, you’re constraining it based on the ideal, then you are achieving something. If I may, there’s a, there’s a quote of one of my favorite poets, even tumbling speech, even tumbling speech strengthens a weak tongue. So the idea is that you need to tumble your way towards the ideal. And sometimes good enough is good. It’s always good. It’s always good. Good enough. Exactly. Exactly. Good enough is always good enough. Like you already said, it hits the spot. It hits the ideal. It conforms to the form. And the more it conforms, the more you recognize the form, the more you’re able to manifest it, the more you recognize it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. If that’s what you need to do. Exactly. Exactly. You need to tumble. You need to tumble. You need to tumble and be ready to fall. No, no, but like, like when I, when I make my sandwich or whatever, right. I spread butter on it. I don’t need to cover it perfectly. Yeah. And it’s stupid. Like, like I don’t, I shouldn’t, like it’s actually bad to try and achieve that. And it’s like, okay, so if that’s true for my, my sandwich, why isn’t it true for anything else? That’s a really good example. I love that example. It’s, if, if, I mean, it’s just a sandwich, just eat the butter and yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do I need to waste time? Actually? What it’s, it’s missing the mark. I can give you an answer why people would reject that. Right. So if you are judgmental towards me instead of loving, then when I say something, you won’t forgive me. Right. You’ll snap back or whatever. Yeah. And, and so now I need, I, well, if I care about that, because I don’t care about it, but if I would care about it, like I would need to meet your expectation. Right. And now I have a standard of perfection because I don’t like, like I, how do I know how to fulfill what you need? Like I don’t, like all I have is, is, is a image in my head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, exactly. My perfect answer or whatever, which is obviously going to be wrong, but that’s a different problem. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I have to relate to. And, and now I’m imprisoned by like needing to live up to that. Yeah. And, and obviously it isn’t you, cause like it cannot be you cause it’s always my head. Yeah. No, no, sometimes that may actually correspond to your expectation, but that’s a different problem. Right. Do you notice what’s happening here? That’s exactly the problem I talked about two, two episodes ago that I don’t know how to start and where to start because I think you have these expectations of me. And that’s exactly what I had the insight that, okay, just say it, saying it is bad is good enough. And that’s when the conversation starts going. And I mean, that’s, I mean, with, with, so to, to, to try to understand what you were saying, actually, so I won’t start vomiting on thoughts on you. You were saying that when I’m judgmental and sort of loving towards you, I’m basically locking you in an ideal that’s unachievable. Whereas when I’m compassionate, I’m basically allowing you to tumble towards an ideal that we, that is common to both of us. Now I’m just putting words in your mouth. I think. So when there’s a couple of things that happen when you’re just meant right. So when you’re just mantle, you’re reciprocally narrowing me and you in the relationship. Yes, absolutely. So you’re basically saying, we’re gonna, we’re going to use this framing. And this framing is not in service to the conversation as such. Like this frame, whatever, like I don’t even care. And so now, now we’re in this frame. And now you assign me an identity, which might be awkward or not, awkward, but it’s irrelevant because now I am, there’s an expectation upon me that I’m gonna relate to you from that identity. And I’ve experienced this many times over the last week or weeks where I got put in this place and it’s like, how can I talk to you from this place? Like, just like, like, what can I say? Like, what do you want? Can you give me an example, like a solid, solid kind of example for exactly what happened? I’m really curious about this. Oh, for example, you did this, right? While I didn’t do it. As like, like, if I deny it, I’m just gonna reinforce the conflict, right? Because now, like, I’m challenging you, right? And your vision of reality and like, that’s, that’s a big no, no, right? So if I say no, I’m gonna end up in a fight, right? I’m also, I’m also not recognizing your feelings, right? Because you’re hurt. Yeah, right. Like, like, the reason that you’re upset is because you didn’t get validated. Like, if I’m gonna challenge it, I’m gonna invalidate it again. Right? And like, I’m not gonna give in, like, that’s not an option, because I’m like, that’s not my identity, right? So, and then it’s like, okay, how can I be gentle? Why I can’t, like, I can’t, I can’t win in that fight. Right? And even if you’re forgiving and loving, right, even if I’m forgiving, that sucks, that really sucks. Right. And then you, this is what I try to do. And like, I’m, I guess I’m kind of second guessing it now. But like, and this, this is, this is the good faith, bad faith thing, right? So people can do that in good faith. And then you can turn around it, right? So like, why is this important? Right? You, you, you, you you step out of the locked frame, and you’re like, I’m still taking you seriously, right? Like, I go, I want to cooperate. Like, let’s find out what we’re doing here, so that we can, we can share, we can communicate. Right? So when, when, when someone is in bad faith, right, they’re like, they don’t want to look at that part of themselves, right? And, and when, when you go and point back at that part of themselves, they will lash out. Yeah, they will. Oh, you’re accusing me of this, right? Or, oh, you’re trying to trick me or like, or, or they go on attack, right? Like, why didn’t you engage with my team? Like, give an answer, like, get back into your identity. Like, I put you in that identity. And I’m on top, right? Like, I’m the authority within that relationship. So you need to get back into that relationship. Then you need to stop the conversation. Because if the person is in bad faith, they’re refusing to have a conversation with you. They just want to role play. Yeah. And like that stuff is really hard. Because like, sometimes you’re stuck with that person in physical space, right? Or in a project, right? Like, like, I’m gonna have to deal with you tomorrow at work, right? Like, because we need, we need to work together on this thing. And like, as long as you’re identifying me as that, like, I’m screwed. Because I can’t cope. Right? This is why I need forgiveness. Like, like, it doesn’t matter whether the other person is right or not. Like, what matters is that we can get back to a place where we’re in community. Yeah. Yeah. And to go back to, well, hope and maybe a little bit faith, right? It’s like, that person needs to hope for that relationship to be lifting them up, right? Instead of perceiving it as the trap that they’re identifying with. Yeah, you also need to have that hope as well. But I’m pretty convinced that, because I’ve had these situations, I have these situations a lot, a lot, that the ones you described, that the ones where somebody criticizes me for something, and I have a tendency to cave in very quickly. And so I cave in and I lock myself inside the role. Because then I got stuck in these binary options. It’s like either you disagree and you’re arrogant, or you agree and you’re a wimp. And there’s no other options. Did they even criticize you? Like, that’s the first question I’m going to ask you. That’s an interesting question. Yeah, in their case, like when I say your hat is bald, did I criticize you? No, no, that’s not criticism. But in their case, it was a criticism. It was. Well, maybe. But the point is, right, like what am I doing when I say that? Right? Like, am I putting you in your place by pointing out your baldness? Or am I making an observation about reality? Like, what is it that I’m engaged with? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You cannot identify what I said, right, like as having a specific meaning, right? Now, you can’t say, well, it’s curious, because you could have chosen anything to talk about, and you chose my baldness, right? So like, there’s something there, right? Because men are generally sensitive about becoming bald, right? And so like, if you point that out, then, like, you’re at some level vaguely making an association to that. But is that my intent? Like, is that something that I want to bring forward in my relationship with you? And it’s like, well, if you don’t know, why would you react to me as if I’m criticizing you? Because this is what’s happening with the racism. It’s like, oh, you said something about something that identifies me as part of this race, right? Which might even be true, right? And then it’s like, you shouldn’t do that. It’s like, shouldn’t I do that? Like, what’s so bad about this? Like, is it bad because you get a bad feeling when I do that? Because that’s not why it’s bad. Like, that’s not bad. That’s just you being a pussy. That’s you projecting. Yeah, I’m trying to associate that with the occasion I have in mind. Because looking back, that person wasn’t exactly criticizing, I think he was genuinely trying to be a good friend. When he said what he said. And what type of friend were you in your response? I was defensive. I was very defensive in that response. I took it as an attack. That’s the problem. And his response to the attack demonstrated that he was trying to be a good friend. Okay. But I mean, that’s looking back in retrospect. Okay, but like, Danny needs to have the tools to have that response. Right? Because if you… Yeah, no, no, no, I’m thinking of… Interesting. Interesting. If you ask something of me, right? Like, did you do this? Right? It’s like, what the fuck, dude? Like, why are you asking me this? And it can be completely innocent, right? I actually had that happen in a day, right? I was like, I asked if I was racist. And I’m like, I don’t know how to respond. Like, I’m not here to have an argument about racism. That’s what I want to have, if someone does that to me. Because it’s like, that’s an insult? Like, it’s just an insult? Like, there’s no good reason for you to do this? Like, and we’re supposed to be here in a wholesome way? So like, why are we in a non-wholesome frame? Like, and the other side is like, even if I was racist, like, can you just be nice to me? Like, because that’s the other part that we’re forgetting. It’s like, okay, like, I insulted you. So what? Like, are you going to get upset about it? Or are you going to try and be a good friend? But then the role is kind of, because I’m linking it back to your example, when somebody was judgmental towards you, and they locked you inside the frame. Because wouldn’t that insult be the same thing except inverted? Because then when you’re insulting someone, you’re also locking them inside the role. Yeah, they lock me in a role, right? Like, when you give an accusation, right? Like, this is why you can’t do defamation. But when you insult someone, you’re also locking them in the role. Yeah, in some sense, yeah. So that’s the thing. So when the insult comes out, kind of the cat’s out of the bag, both of you are locked in the role, unless one of you is forgiving and breaks the cycle already. No, but nevertheless, the person giving off the insult is still the same. Both need to be forgiving, and you can’t expect that. At least one of them needs to play the role. I’m talking about the truth. One of them needs to play the role of being the forgiving person who transcends the situation. Both people need to forgive. Like, if one person doesn’t want to cooperate, there’s no cooperation. Like, it takes two-thirds. It takes, I fully agree, but on the, exactly, both people have to forgive. Yeah, both people have the obligation to forgive, even if one of them insulted. But the point still remains that when you give off the insult, you’re just as guilty as the person who judged you. No, because if you respond to it rightfully, the response is not the same as the act. They’re not the same. They’re morally or completely different. Like, if you shoot someone, you go to jail. Like, if you shoot someone in response, you might not go to jail. Like, they’re not the same. With you, with you on that. With you that they’re not the same. But I’m trying to, because when you were talking about your initial example about the person who’s judging you, you, I think maybe I misunderstood you. I probably misunderstood you. It was like, you were robbed of your agency when this person judged you. Because you were locked up. I was completely confused. Right. Because I didn’t know. I didn’t know. What did I do? Like, what do you do? OK. OK. I see. I see what you mean. You put me in this confusing situation right now. It’s not OK. I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t know how to be a good person. Like, yeah. Because no matter how I go. But yeah, then it’s the same thing with somebody who insults you. It’s like, OK, what do I do with you now? Because I’ve had this. I’ve had like as a child, I’ve had this countless times because they tell you don’t respond to your bully or you have to defend yourself and all that crap that they tell you. So then you have this situation that when the bully insults you, when the bully bullies you, if you retaliate, that you just empower them even more. But if you’re silent, you’re also empowering them even more. And my my. Not if you’re not suffering. Sorry? Not if you’re not suffering. Yeah. Like there’s a reason why I don’t give a shit about what people think about me. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you’re not a sexist, you’re not a man. Like I learned that. That’s the skill. Like, like people treated me like shit. Like I had to deal with that. You can’t get upset about it. And I was like, no, I’m not going to get upset. And then they lose interest. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. You transcend the situation when you do that. Yeah. And in which case, when the person judges you, if you try if you manage to not get upset about it, you you manage to stay. You manage to be on that higher level where you can coordinate you and the other person because you’re standing above. Not in any arrogant kind of sense, but you’re standing above in the sense that you still sometimes sometimes you don’t sometimes you just go on the same level and sometimes like like like standing above would be nice, but like you just don’t have the capacity to always. Yeah. Sometimes I don’t have the capacity to that. Yeah. Like that’s not always an option. And it’s also right. You need to contextualize it. Like I was in a situation. I was on the date. Right. Yeah. That’s even more complexifying. It was just like, like, I don’t I don’t want to have this dynamic. Right. Like I refuse to have a date with that dynamic. Does that mean that I refuse to have this date? Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. When it’s on a date, then it’s very, very difficult to navigate to that. Our business relationship, whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because because you have to keep maintaining it and get stuck in your head and yeah. Right. And like, like, I still have to deal with it. Like I’m talking about it now. I obviously haven’t. Yeah. Yeah. And and to go back to. Well, let me let me talk about myself. So one of the issues I have is when people don’t listen to me, I get really upset. Like, like when I’m like when I don’t make an effort, and you’re an ass, like I don’t give a shit. When I make an effort, and you don’t reciprocate, I care. And it’s like, why are you not playing with me? Oh, that’s so true. Like, like, I want to play with you. Why are you not playing with me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I didn’t do anything to you to deserve that. You’re not playing with me. Yeah. Like, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. Like, like, it’s fine if you can, but then say, I can’t. Sorry. Like, at least give me the dignity of the interaction of telling me that you can’t. Right. Instead of being a solipsist and using me for your validation of your fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most people don’t have the courage to do that. To actually say it. And you end up stuck. You end up stuck with people who are just faking a relationship with you. Well, yeah, that, but yeah, that’s the intimacy crisis, right? Yeah, exactly. So, to connect these things back to hope, right, it’s like, well, that’s, I, like, I am genuinely hopeless, but like, I think, I think there are hopeless cases, right? Like, I think these situations, like, there’s no hope. Okay. And like, to be fair, I, like, I turn around that date, but like, there was a tone set. Yeah. Yeah. And that tone didn’t leave. Yeah. And it’s like, like, you messed up my music. You messed up my music. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like a fly that’s flying around you now. Yeah. Black spots on the date. It’s even worse, right? Because I think, I think I’m not capable of moving on without resolving that. Mm. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. It’s like, like, I have to deal with this. It’s like, like, it’s a no. But like, you can’t let it slide. You can’t let it slip by. You can’t let it, and I think this is what locks you in a hopeless situation. The fact that you cannot let it slip by, because if you do let it slip by, odds are that the, that future incidents, future interactions will buy you somehow, no matter how significant it seems. Yeah. But I’m going to get back into the pattern, right? Like, like, yeah, I don’t think I should, I should let it slide, because then I’ll be abused. Okay, so, so for you, it becomes abuse, and you can’t be, you shouldn’t remain silent. It is, you are kind of, you have this, I don’t want to say authority, but rather you have this duty towards yourself to actually stand up and talk about it. Because if you don’t, it’s going to happen again, and again, and again. It already did. It already did. There you go. There you go. It already did. Then it becomes, I don’t want to say, then it becomes an indicator of, because to tie this again back to hope, like, like we said, you can’t let it go, and therefore you can’t give yourself hope, because if you do give hope, you’re allowing this to grow. This is growing. This is overgrowing. This is growing. This is overgrowing. And then the option would be to recognize that there is something, there is something wrong with the approach. Either there’s some red flag, for example, or the relationship needs to be redefined so that this doesn’t happen again. Yeah, absolutely. Now I know what you’re trying to say. Right, and I like that you’re living in this corrupted hope, right? And when that corrupted hope is, and this is why tolerance is bad, right? Like, I cannot tolerate this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you cannot tolerate these things because they’re going to fester. They’re going to fester. They’re going to fester. Tolerance and festering. Yeah. And like, every time you hear the word tolerance, or at least, like, I think there might be a proper way to use tolerance. And maybe we should have a talk about that. But every time I hear the word tolerance, I’ll just give a definition for everybody so that they can think about it. So I think tolerance might be proper within your body. So if you’re the head, you can tolerate things going wrong in your body because they’re your body and they’re bound. And so being bound is going to self-correct. That turns grass. Right? There’s an emerging healing from being a body. But if you’re not a body and you’re tolerating something, then the fact that you’re tolerating something is not going to result in healing. It’s like an infestation. It becomes an infestation. Right. Because you’re tolerating a parasite then. Right. So if you have people that migrate towards your country, right, and they haven’t integrated, they haven’t partaken of the body, and they do things and you tolerate it, it’s going to ask. That’s what’s happening. Yeah. You can see it happening. You can see it happening already. You can see it happening in many ways, actually. In Germany, my friend of mine was complaining about that, actually, the other day. That it’s festering somehow. Certain ways of existing, which are clashing, not clashing, but dissonant with the German way of living, are becoming more and more prominent. And that’s… Right. And now there are fours, right? You’re an actual force instead of the problem. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes a subculture within the culture, which is a parasite, essentially. Well, it can become a parasite. Right. But the problem is like, how are you going to fix it? Like, you don’t have any authority. Cointegration is possible? So… No. Not with these Muslim communities or whatever, or these criminal communities, because they have opposing values, right? Like, they literally have opposing values. And when you have something within something else that doesn’t want to be a part of it, you don’t have any authority. Right. So, you don’t have any authority. You don’t have something within something else that doesn’t want to be a part of it. You can do what you want, right? It’s like, you can placate it all you want. You can use all the political tools, right? You can give them money. You can give them systems, right? Like, you can lubricate the interaction with your body all you want. But if they hold as one, because they’re bound by a higher principle, like a religion, then it’s all going to do nothing. Yeah. This topic is something I prefer not to talk about online, to be honest. It’s beyond my… But you can talk about it in the criminal case, right? Like, a criminal organization has the same problem, right? Because they’re… you look like at the mafia or whatever, right? They’re like, no, we’re a government within your government. Yeah. And we don’t like your shit. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Then tolerance is basically fertilizing the parasites. Right? It can happen if… it’s also in revolutions, right? I mean, if you have a party that is aiming to be a revolution in your system, if one of the German parties here claims that we want to own everything, we are against all the other parties, then tolerance is… it’s no longer tolerance. It’s not having a backbone. Right. It’s something else. Yeah. Well, but when was it tolerance? Yeah. It never was tolerance. I don’t think… because I’m trying to think of how people usually say tolerance to begin with. Because we say we’re attacking the way people use tolerance, but do we know how people use tolerance to begin with? And we’re giving it from hope. But I just want to make this point before we jump again back to hope. Because when I hear people saying tolerance, it’s either… I actually don’t know, because I’m just remembering this day at school where we were discussing tolerance. And the person kept asking us, what is tolerance? What is tolerance? And nobody could give an answer. I remember this very clearly, and I still don’t know what he meant by tolerance. I think everybody kept saying, yeah, okay, accepting the other, tolerating the other, but nobody could give him a proper definition of tolerance. And I still don’t remember how that conversation was resolved. So I think I need to personally reflect on what I mean by tolerance when I say tolerance, because I don’t know what I mean, to be honest. Well, tolerance in some sense is letting things be, right? Without exerting the authority that you have. And you have it, right? That’s the whole point, right? And so this… That’s the problem with this new left movement, right? They’re all about tolerance, right? And like, what does tolerance do? It moves the margin into the center, right? Like it lets that which which is not within the norm participate in the norm. And now what is normal is corrupted. Like the norm becomes unrecognizable. The coherence becomes unrecognizable. The norm is the standard that things should live up to. Right. This is the fragmentation then. This is the fragmentation because you don’t have a standard anymore. Because when you’re absolutely tolerant… Right, if you incorporate everything from the outside into the standard, it dilutes, right? Yeah, yeah, it dilutes. That’s only if you say gay marriage is okay, right? And then marriage with three people is okay. Marriage with four people is okay, right? Like if you just keep adding these steps, like people are doing this actively, right? They… What does marriage even mean at that point? Right, you can’t do that because now marriage is no longer marriage. Yeah. And also like if people think that marriage… What marriage used to be is what marriage is now, right? If they confuse these two things, then what does that do to society, right? Like now we’re getting new dynamics, right? Like we’re losing a structure that was holding up a bunch of other things and we’re replacing it with… We don’t know what. And the problem is, right, like it’s all parasitic on marriage. So like… And marriage is essential, right? Because if you don’t have marriage, then like how do you maintain a society over time? So there needs to be a correction, right? Like and I’m not arguing for I’m not arguing for the taking away of the right of things to do people… Of people to do things, but I’m arguing for maintaining the norm as the norm, so that we commune around the norm and then there’s a we. Because like also the other thing is like how is there a we? Like this… That’s why I said coherence to begin with, because the norm is what makes things coherent, right? And where you when you start being overly tolerant, there’s no standard for coherence anymore and then everything falls apart. Right. And to connect that to hope, right? Yeah. What are you hoping for? Because if there’s no standard… I think, yeah. What’s the vision you have in this case? Is it just local vision or is it a global vision? How do you even make a vision if you don’t have an exemplification? Yeah, if you don’t have any standards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you even go for the vision? Well, no, you don’t have standard barriers. A standard what? Standard barriers, like so many… Barriers, standard barriers. Somebody who’s exemplifying the standards and demonstrating it. Demonstrating it. And moving forward and having everybody follow. Because then when you collapse that standard, even your marriage doesn’t make sense anymore. Right. How do you draw a boundary? Like, what’s the authority that you appeal to? Yeah, that stuff with drawing a boundary, I think that’s one of the biggest questions for me. That question, like whenever I have the discussion about the gay marriage, to be honest, I’m more on the pro side. No, no, but I’m talking about like you have no experience of tradition, right? Yeah, yeah. And you’re in a marriage and then like, should I do this or shouldn’t I do this? Right? Like, should we have an open marriage or not? I like to have an open marriage. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That leads to the collapse of society. Yeah, that leads to absolute… Then, yes, then I’m on your side with this one because then you have no way of having a vision to begin with. Because if anything can happen, if anything can happen, then you have no way of having a vision to begin with. Because if you have no way of having a vision to begin with, if anything can happen, if anything can happen, that’s kind of the other extreme of hope. Maybe that’s kind of the vice side of hope. Because you know… No, like that’s the hope of the rebel, right? Like the hope of the rebel is the hope for liberty, right? Freedom from oppression, freedom from constraint. Yeah, freedom from oppression. All these social movements, right? Like you can just look at the flag, right? Like what’s the flag? We don’t want to be oppressed. We don’t want to be constrained. We don’t want to be judged by your standard. Like that’s what the flag is. That’s actually a good… It’s actually an interesting way of interpreting it. It’s basically telling you in your face, we don’t conform to your standards. No, but that’s taking it to an extreme, to be honest. But I don’t want to get into too deep. I want to stick to… No, it’s not taking it to an extreme. Like they call it the Pride Parade for a reason, right? It’s there. Like they’re literally saying it explicitly. I mean, because the way I interpret it, or the way I’m seeing it there, is that with all these Pride Parades, it’s more of a minority asking for a place, not asking a shift to center. Maybe some of them are doing that. Some of them are asking for a shift to center. I’m agreeing with you that they’re like for a complete… Okay, but you cannot ask for a place that way. Okay, yeah. With that, I’m with you. I’m with you on that. Like if you want a place, you have to look on my door and you have to talk to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to find your place within a system of constraints that already exists, and not by destroying and shattering the constraints completely. Yeah, I’m with you on that. I’m with you on that. And the problem is like that place has always been there in some way, right? Like people live together for all ages. And yeah, like people had to fight for their place, but like that’s true for most people, right? Like we’re all weird in some sense, and there’s nothing wrong with that. And there’s two ways to get your place, right? Like one is to deserve it, and the other one is to claim it. Or not claim it, you claim the right to have it, which basically puts the burden on other people to give you a place. Yeah, because if you want to ask for a place, it has to be in the location to begin with. It can’t be just… Right, and that’s the other part. A lot of these people, we shouldn’t universalize, but like a lot of these people reject society as it is. And this is like, okay, so you’re rejecting something, and you still want to be accepted by what you reject? Like what the fuck’s wrong with you? And you’re trying to find a place with the enemy. Your goals are sort of contradictory. That’s what you see there. And you’re parasitic, right? It’s like I don’t want to be this because I don’t like it, but like I still want things from it. Right. I mean, in their defense, I feel like I should say this, because I was like that. I was very much… It’s really easy to be like that, right? Yeah, and I had the exact same attitude, and there were psychological reasons why. They were… That needed understanding. So my advice to both sides of the argument is to stop looking for the solution on the outside and start looking for the solution on the inside before trying to look for the solution on the outside. Yeah, well, yeah. Most of the time it’s young people as well, right? Yeah. Yeah, but that’s the sad part, right? Because like… Well, for two reasons, right? Like they’re going to grow old. So like what’s going to happen when all these people who have problems are going to be adults? And then there’s the other side is when you’re young, what do you know? Yeah, yeah. You don’t know shit because you don’t have any life experience. And then from the place of no life experience, you’re going to make judgments about how the world works? It was like, yeah, I can’t see how that will ever grow. Oh, like I lived that life too. And I can see it. Like I just came back from a weekend playing games with people and it’s like you can see the two sides warring, right? When you say something, it’s like, yeah, I agree, but we can’t do this, right? It’s like there’s an implication to what you’re saying, so I can’t accept what you’re saying. Or it’s like I agree with you, but I’m not drawing the conclusions that I need to draw from adopting that as real, right? This is like I’m just living in a performative contradiction and I’m fine with it because I don’t want to get on the conflict on the one side, now I want to get into conflict on the other side. I don’t have any beef in this game, right? And we’re back to tolerance because that’s what tolerance is, effectively, right? Like it’s the unwillingness to go into conflict. The unwillingness to go into conflict. Yes, yes, it is. It is unwillingness. It’s recognizing that something needs to be dealt with and not dealing with it. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah, that puts a different way of seeing tolerance completely because actually it sheds light on some things because I’ve always not resented. I’ve always had trouble with the Islamic paradigm of you’re supposed to tell people to stop doing something if it’s wrong and ask them to do the right thing. And I’ve always found that because you don’t get people to change by telling them to change. That was for me always dissonant. It’s like how can you do that? But then again, there’s this tolerance issue that if it’s something that’s actually wrong and somebody is supposed to be doing something about it, it’s not going to be a good thing. Yeah, but like you have to. It’s like one of the things I and Mark do, right? It’s like exemplification is important, right? So why did they tar people, right? They put tars and feathers on them, right? Not because they wouldn’t do it anymore although shaming people is pretty effective in a lot of cases. But it’s like, no, it’s for all the other people. Like all the people watching, they need to know not to do this. It’s like you can deal with one criminal but you can’t deal with five. Right. So it’s surrounding of when a leader in Game of Thrones kills someone just to show them that I carry out my sentences. It’s not just words. I exemplify it. If you do this, there will be consequences and then everybody shuts up. Right. And you have to realize that sometimes cutting up that hat means that you’re not cutting up 10 hats later on. Yeah. And that sucks, right? To make that decision. Yeah, exactly. It sucks to make that decision of the king. Yeah. And that’s why you have to be intolerant like at really early stages. Right? But then again, this is the problem where we run into now. Like you said, they’re children. Right? You can look at Gaza. Right? They’re children. And it’s unfair because they’re indoctrinated. Right? They never knew that. And so do you want to cut up the hat of a child? It’s like, no, it’s too late. At that point, you lost the standard behind you. Right? You lost the ideal that allows you to judge because it’s not recognized anymore. And what role are you going to have to play now? Because how are you going to fix this? As I said, that story over there is beyond my capacity to talk about it. Well, but I’m not trying to talk about the story. I’m trying to talk about the problem where giving the signal is just reinforcing the dynamic. Right? We can go back to the conversation. Right? So if someone is putting you in an identity, right? And you do the proper response, right? Like, for example, you did this. And they’re like, I don’t think that happened. Yeah. Right. Then you confirm their suspicion of you, right? Because they’re going to see a reflection of what they think is happening. Like, this is what a conspiracy theory is, right? Right. If you would be the evil person, you would definitely say this, not to sound evil and therefore you’re evil. They’re like, no. Like, everything you do confirms what I think. Right. Yeah. So in this case, it would be the fact that tolerance becomes you’re allowing that silly idea to fester in the other person’s head if you’re not somehow doing something about it. Right. You’re allowing something to take territory. Yeah. Yeah. And at a certain point, it will gain ability to defend the territory from external attack. Yeah. Right. And so what do you need? You need, at that point, you need to have the head align with you to attack the territory within. Right. So, for example, if you have the mafia, right, you need the head of the mafia to cooperate with you to start integrating the mafia within society. Because if you don’t have the cooperation of the head of the mafia, like the head of the mafia is going to do what he’s going to do. Yeah. You need to cooperate with whatever is keeping it whole to begin with. Otherwise, it’s just going to fester bigger. This is kind of, I’m associating this with an issue I used to have. Like I used to have a lot of negative thoughts, a lot of negative thoughts about myself. And I used to fight with them a lot. I used to either suppress them or argue back or stuff like that. Then I got into mindfulness and I got into the habit of accepting them, which was fine. But the problem is that in the first stage, they grew on me. Tolerating them in a mistaken sense of mindfulness, because I had no idea what mindfulness was. I was tolerating these ideas and they actually destroyed me. They actually did destroy me. They overgrew. They overran the system. And to connect it with the mafia metaphor, I needed to get at the root of the problem to figure out what the head of the mafia was that was dominating all over the place. Yes. Yeah, I was having a conversation earlier. And this idea of allowing things to grow, right? It’s like you have to recognize them, right? And then you have to deal with them, right? There’s two ways of dealing with things, right? One is you relate to them or the other one is you move beyond them. Like moving beyond is the solution, right? Now, the problem with moving beyond can be that if you’re moving beyond, you get dragged back, right? Because if you’re not anchored and not in your hope, then whatever stumble, to use your word, is going to redirect you back to that center of gravity, right? Yes. To talk about the size of steps, right? It’s like you need to be anchored in hope and you need to take steps that don’t make you stumble. You don’t fix the problem by looking at it, by understanding it. You fix the problem by looking at it. By understanding it, you fix the problem by looking at the solution. How does this last part, this part last part came out of nowhere? I feel like, can you concretize that in terms of the, for example? Well, for example, right? Like the way I like to look at it is, like I played this game where I was hitting a ball with my hand, right? And so I was doing something, right? I was making a movement, right? Where I was just like smashing the ball down really hard, right? And then I was making this joke about how we were all like, being gay and something like that. And then I was like, I started hitting like this as a joke, right? And making sounds. And then I realized I was hitting way better. Like magically, like I was having a really rough time hitting that ball. And then I realized I was hitting way better. Like magically, like I was having a really rough time hitting that ball. And it worked! I was like, what the fuck is going wrong? Like, not wrong, what’s going on? And people started doing it and it worked for them. And I was like, and then what happened is, like I was reciprocally narrowed in a certain movement, right? And then like when you do like this, right? There’s a lot of movement in the same place, right? And there’s a time, right? So like you have to wait, right? Instead of that you’re having this whole wind up, right? So there’s all of these relationships where my access to control were greatly increased. And I would have never gotten there, keeping up what I was doing and trying to fix that. And so what did I need to do? I needed to get to being in the right dynamic, right? And then I learned a bunch of things doing this. And then I could go back to other stances and try to reproduce that same relationship. And I could accept that improvement to that. Like that’s how I got better. I didn’t get better by fixing anything. Like I got better by finding out what I needed to do. Right, right, right, right, right, right. You didn’t get better by analyzing the situation, but by figuring out the path. Figuring out what to do. The prescription is going forward. It has nothing to do with what I was doing. That doesn’t mean that what I was doing was completely wrong. What it means is that that’s not where the answer was. It’s not where the answer was. The answer was somewhere else. The answer was external to you and that annexing that part into you was what was missing and what brought you forward. And then you do this exactation thing where you needed a suggestion. You needed an external suggestion to transcend the situation. Right. And analyzing the situation would not have gotten you anywhere. Understanding would not have gotten you anywhere. Because if I analyze it, I’d be relating to the things that I was already doing. You would be still stuck in your framing. You would be still mixing around your framing instead of contemplating an external solution. So understanding then in this case becomes trying to solve the problem from within the frame of the problem. That’s what you meant by it. I think I okay now I understand this. Because I’m not trying to understand anything when I accept back into the frame. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m just experimenting. Right. Like, oh, let’s try this. Like that experimentation is like it’s what if you experiment, you’re it has a better word, but you’re triangulating, right? You’re trying to identify how things work together. Right. And then you come to a certain point, right, which is optimal. Right. And then you kind of either you perfect that or you break again. Right. And then you accept something into it and then you merge again to one expression. Right. So like there’s that’s breathing in some sense. Right. Like you think in the world and then you execute. You focus. Take in the world and you focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is not a solution. Right. Okay. It’s growing. It’s living. Wait, wait, you’re saying it’s not the solution, but it’s growing and living. Yeah, it’s not a solution because it’s not in relation to the problem. It’s not a relation to the problem. Okay. Right. That’s the distinction. Like what you’re doing is not in relation to the problem. Let me think about this for a second. But that doesn’t always happen like that. And I have no way to defend this point because speaking out of personal experience, because I wonder if what you mean by experimenting is what we’re making means by serious play. Because I have no because no, because. Because in your case, in order to get there to get to that, you were just playing around. Right. You’re just joking. And you discovered that way. Am I right? But I wasn’t seriously playing anything. You were joking. You were playing. Yeah, but I wasn’t. No, but like serious play implies that you’re in a container to do something. Like it is. It is. It is constrained. Like serious play is constrained. Like it has to be. My understanding, which is which might probably be wrong of at least what I mean by serious play. Let’s put it this way. What I mean by serious play is trying to mess around in order to break the frame, to find a more encompassing frame, which is not always guaranteed to work. But then again, the way I see serious play is like LARP. Like I think that was this example as well. Serious play. What? Which one? Which one again? Live action role playing. Live action role playing, yeah. Right. Like that’s the way that I think that they’re talking about serious play. Right. And it basically means that you’re trying to recreate reality in a way where you’re not personally bound to the consequences of your actions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. That was nothing like what I did. Okay. Okay. But how would you phrase, how would you call what you did in order to get to that point? Revelation. Like. Revelation. Revelation. Reveal. Like. Revelation. I wasn’t, I wasn’t looking at it. I wasn’t asking for it. Right. Yeah. Let’s do something silly, which I don’t believe in. Like I didn’t believe in it. Like I literally didn’t believe in it. Like I went and did it again. You had no intention. You had no intentions. There was no aim to begin with. No. There was no aim. But that’s why I call it serious play because you basically got out of the frame. You stopped trying and you started doing something else and you found your way. It’s like you were acting in a frame where the consequences didn’t matter. Yeah, but I didn’t. Because if I would have done what you’re saying, I would never have done that. Okay. You would have remained stuck in the frame. If you would have intentionally done that, you would have still been in the frame of trying to get the ball. Yes. Right. Right. And by doing something silly, you forgot about the previous frame. Right. And then you found the solution. I literally shifted my goal. Right. You shifted your goal. You shifted your goal. You shifted your goal. Being funny and joking around. Exactly. So I was having a completely different role in the container of the game still because I was still partaking in that. Exactly. And funnily enough, I think this also connects to hope. It has to. Because you’re breaking out of the frame. You’re no longer regarding the consequences anymore. You’re not taking your role seriously. You’re the parasitic role. You’re not taking it seriously anymore. And you’re allowing a larger frame to manifest itself because you said it was revelation. Yeah. Does it connect to hope? Well, in some sense, I lost hope. Yeah. Right. Because why would I break the sanctity of the game? I didn’t completely break it, right? But I kind of broke it, right? Because I wasn’t serious. You were not taking it seriously anymore. Exactly. Right. You broke the sanctity of the game. Yeah. So that’s the consequence of a loss of hope, right? It’s like I don’t see… That’s actually… I made a transgression, right? Like I had something shared. You made the transgression. And I broke the sacredness of it. In a sense, you dug deep into the sacredness of it by breaking the… The thing is, here we go back to this thing because the image you had of what you were supposed to do was not real, right? Then you can say it that way. That the image you had of what you were supposed to do was like the image I had of the attention when I was doing all these practices. And I had to break out of that, destroy the sanctity of it in order to find the place or to allow a bigger reality. And that’s what happened there. You gave up. And I think this is again the same. You gave up on something only to receive what you were really trying to get. Right. But yeah, I gave up on something but not everything. Yeah. Not everything. Yeah. There’s a bit of a paradox there. Well, yeah. Right. And to go back, right? Well, okay. So I think before hope, there’s a calling. Yes. Yeah. There’s a calling. And so what happened to me, right? Like I did something and I hear the call. Yeah. It’s like, hey, man, you know, pay attention. This is the shit, right? Like you need to engage with this. Like stop all this other stupid stuff. Like yeah. That gave me hope, right? That’s what led to the acceptation, right? There was something in me that recognized that there was fruit to be harvested there. And I just had to figure out what it was and how to relate to it. So yeah. Yeah. That’s how hope came into being. Yeah. I think we definitely are talking different yet related ways of seeing hope. Different yet related ways of seeing hope. Because if I wanted to sum up, for you hope, there’s a calling there involved. You’re being called to something and you need to clarify how you need to find the prescriptions, the steps to manifest whatever is going on. So in your example, hope, you lost hope. No, no, no. Hold on. That’s not completely true. What happened, right, is I did stuff. Yeah. Like I wasn’t trying to find steps or anything. Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. You completely let go of the framing. Yeah. You adopted a humorous perspective. I’m gay. And then you found the way. You took that point. Even in the process, right? Following up on it. I was experimenting. I wasn’t trying to figure out the optimal way. I was just doing my shifting. Exactly. You were just doing stuff. You were just doing stuff. The hope came afterwards. Hope? Because why am I doing that? I’m doing things because I see something there. Otherwise, I would be doing different things. So you did see hope in it. You did see hope in breaking the perspective. No, I wouldn’t articulate that. OK. You would not integrate it this way. OK. I had hope. Hmm. It wasn’t consciously like it was arriving. Yeah. It was coming to be. It was coming into being. Right. So in a sense, you lost the lesser hope to pay for the cost of the greater hope or more encompassing hope. I don’t know. Maybe. I don’t know. I think that’s what breaking the frame is. Like breaking the frame is not necessarily related to the height of the hope or whatever. Because when you break the frame, like… Not a higher hope in the sense of a greater hope. In the sense of a right hope. More true. Yes. Yes. Yes. A hope that is more true. You let go of a hope that is less true in order to find the hope that is more true. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s very… Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To go back to this idea of containers, I think a container is literally allowing you to engage with a higher. Yeah. So that it’s not conflicting with other hires. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like there’s people that lost everything and then they go to the job at McDonald’s and then they fill up for the other person. Right? There’s all this stuff that they need to figure out. Right? And they’re alive. And what are they doing? They’re relating to something that’s meaningless in comparison. And I think the way that you can do that is by setting yourself into this contained space where you have this identity. And then what is the highest thing within that contained space while that’s filling the cup? Wait. I don’t know how to… So filling the cup is… Again, how is it? Can you explain that a little bit more? How is the filling the cup? So what you’re saying is filling the cup is a space that encompasses all the hopes together. Oh, no. It’s doing your job, for example. Right? It’s doing your job. Doing your thing. Right. And within your job, something needs to be done. Right? Like something is the highest. Yeah. Yeah. They’re like… Ah, la, la, la. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And they’re doing their job. Yeah. And so your activity is contained, right? Like your identity is separated from this other identity which has way more urgency, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s set high, right? And you could say, well, yeah, then there’s a super identity that says, like, I’m the person that goes to my job and therefore I go to my job, right? Exactly. Exactly. But it’s like there’s still something there, right? Where you can separate who you are between those spaces. Because the way that you form memories, right? Like the way that you see the world, right? Like not only memories but also have experiences, right? Like when I’m in the sauna or whatever, right? Like the way that the world comes at me is completely different when I’m, I don’t know, walking through mud in the rain. Like if you’re asking me when I’m walking through mud in the rain, remember the sauna. And I’m like, I can’t. I’ve got to deal with it. Like that’s a completely different situation right there. Yeah. Right. There’s just no access to empathize with something so far away, right? And I think that’s what the container is, right? So there’s a way in which you have experiences within a certain space that when you get out of that space are like almost impossible to remember, right? Like I think something like that could also be like reading a book, for example. Right. Or going to a forest. Or going to a forest alone, for example. Or going sleeping in the desert or something like that. Going to a place that completely erases all of the sub identities but still encompasses them somehow. Like in the case of somebody filling the cup, it’s a greater good that they’re bound to which encompasses all of the sub identities and yet simultaneously erases them for a while, temporarily erases them so that they can see who they are on the greater scale and then come back and be able to manage the situation. This is one more thing and I should go very soon because otherwise I’ll be in trouble tomorrow. What I do when I’m writing something, this is something I did when I was writing the report. I went on, proceeded writing the report but in order to snap myself out of this role where I am this little boy avoiding criticism, I started writing everything in a funny way. But writing everything as if it’s a stand-up comedy show. You’re still doing the job. The ideas are still coming out of your head. Then you just need to refine it later. Yeah, that’s something like that, right? You engage with the same problem from a different identity. Exactly. And then you could circumvent the other identity. Yeah, maybe you can find an identity that’s not as far away as the comedian. Yeah, exactly. It was close enough. It fulfills the purpose. It fulfills the purpose. It fulfills the purpose. But the idea with the compass is pretty nice. It wasn’t ideal but it… Yeah, it wasn’t ideal but it fits. Okay. Yeah, let’s close this down. Is there something that stood out to you that you want to reflect upon? Yeah, actually this paradoxical nature of hope, this… It really highlights the importance of being bound to something that’s bigger than you. Because it’s almost like it’s very difficult to get out of this paradox, to resolve it. If you are trapped in an egocentric way of being, which is why I think religion is very important when having hope. Because religion gives you this fallback. Or you can go work at McDonald’s, no problem. Or you can go take a walk in the forest. It’s all the same. You need to… You always need to make this paradoxical leap of faith outside of the frame into a more encompassing frame. And if you don’t know that, what is that for you? Be it religion, be it the forest, then you’re in trouble. Because then hope is not possible anymore. You look very sad right now. Yeah, no, I’m… Yeah, I need to think about that more. Because there’s definitely something there. I’m just going to go to the place. I don’t think anything of these things is an option until you make it so. I think you just have to learn it all. Yeah, you have to learn it. The world is so messed up. These things, people magically have them appear in their lives. And then they will guide. It’s like, how fucking stupid are you? It’s like, no, you don’t have any rights to have proper hope, proper faith or whatever. It’s not coming from nothing. You need to work for it. This idea that you have to work and you even can, you have agency on these levels, is completely alien to me. Even to the Christian people, often, they don’t sound like they believe in that. Maybe they say that they believe in it and then they don’t like the doubt. Yeah, it’s just, I don’t know. It’s definitely something I need to think about more. And maybe we can get people in the comments to give us some feedback about that. Yeah, more discussion in the future. So thank you and see you next time. Bye-bye.