https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=xWhuQOVTFGw
All right, well I’m talking today with Dr. James Lindsay, Dr. Peter Boghossian and Dr. Helen Pluckrose and they’re all famous or infamous depending on your perspective as the authors of a series of hoax articles that were published in what purport to be academic journals in the last year following up work done by Sokol back how long ago was that? Now it’s got to be like 25 years now. Right, right. So we’ve all assumed or you’ve all assumed that the situation hasn’t improved. So the first thing I’m going to do we’re going to have an extended discussion about these articles and about the motivation for producing them and the necessity for that and the morality of that and the aftermath and all of that. And first thing I’m going to do is have each of you introduce yourself and then we’ll launch right into a discussion about let’s call it the scandal. Dr. Lindsay. Yeah, good to be here. So I have a background in mathematics and physics. My PhD is in math. I left academia in 2010 and have been studying mostly religious and moral philosophy and psychology since and then got wrapped up in this idea. I kind of was the I guess epicenter of the project. I did all the submissions and managed all the emails and all of that and then Peter and Helen filled in all of my weaknesses. And so we spent you know, an 18 about 18 months working on this a year really 10 months writing papers. Then there was the getting ready to go public. So that’s kind of who I am and how I got into this. I’m just a lapsed mathematician who gives a lot of concern to how we produce knowledge and what academic standards are and should be. So what why did you leave academia? I wish I could say that it was like this prescient thing. I saw the writing on the wall that it was going mad and I wanted out but really it was just a number of personal responsibilities and commitments that led me to not want to pursue employment where I didn’t know where I would be placed from you know, one postdoc to the next. It was family commitments primarily. But you were still interested enough to continue while with this project, interested enough in the academic world. Yeah, I never really wanted to stop researching or reading and thinking and coming up with new ideas. It’s very difficult to do mathematics without some institutional backing. Math is hard as some people have noticed. So I didn’t have the resources necessary really to pursue mathematical research independently. But I found that I could dig into philosophy and I could dig into psychology kind of on my own, not professionally, of course, but enough to get an idea of what I was looking at in a philosophical sense to answer questions that I was really deeply interested in. Mostly the question that drove me probably from about 2011 forward was, you know, what do people really mean? What are they talking about when they say the word God? And so I really got involved in talking about or thinking about religion. That’s what led me to religious and moral psychology, trying to understand why people believe things that they do and why they manifest their beliefs in certain ways. And ultimately, because I was, you know, that kind of a guy, I just wanted to find out what the I figure I live in the southeast US. It’s a really religious area. People talk to me about their belief in God all the time. I hear it constantly at different levels from the, you know, yeah, there’s I kind of believe level all the way to the borderline insane level of conviction to very implausible propositions level. And I wanted to understand, I know the people talking about ideas like God mean something when they say the term, it’s something very not just do they mean something, they mean something very important to themselves. And I wanted to figure out from a perspective that didn’t rely upon the religious, the theology or the religious mythology or narrative, what they were speaking to as articles within in the material world. And so I became very interested in that and spent a number of years reading and writing about it. And by the way the kind of culture war, if you want to call it that progressed, it’s seeing what was happening to people I was interested in. Sam Harris, for example, was was certainly one of these people. You see these people get called racist or sexist for what seemed to be nothing. And you try to dig into it again, with the interest and meaning of words, kept seeing these references back to these, you know, power dynamics and sociological definitions that that only see racism or sexism as structural entities that allow basically people of people to be considered racist or sexist just because of their identity. By just by virtue of being say a white male, you could be racist and sexist. You inevitably are. That’s exactly exactly. So that’s what led me to get curious about the the grievance studies canon. Ultimately. Okay, Peter, let’s hear, let’s hear from you and tell everybody who you are and what you’re up to. I’m currently teaching philosophy at Portland State University in the philosophy department and I am up to James. Lindsay and I just finished a book, How to Have Impossible Conversations that will come out probably in 2019 from DeCapo Press. And I don’t know what I’m up to now because I may be looking at a career change very soon. So um, we will get into that later. But the university file charged against me, they found me guilty of not seeking IRB approval and investigation is ongoing for the falsification. So we better have quite a conversation as well about IRB approval. That’s another rabbit hole we can plunge down because that’s another catastrophic catastrophe that the university has inflicted upon itself over the last two decades. So that’s something that’s become increasingly politicized. So it’s very difficult to understand how you could get IRB approval for a satire or why you might need it. Okay, okay, good. Helen, let’s hear from you. Well, I’m the member of the group who isn’t doctor, I’m a lonely MA, but I have a background in literature and early, late medieval early modern studies. I’m interested in how women used the Christian narrative to get authority and autonomy for themselves, sort of 1300 to 1700. So I’m looking at how this changed before and after the Reformation, how the narratives changed. I left at the end of my masters, I was intending to go back and do my PhD in medieval manuscripts. But it’s just got, I keep going earlier and earlier because it is so difficult to get away from the ideology. I’m interested in medieval manuscripts, but not overwhelmingly. I want to look at social history, but it’s so difficult to do that because there is a pressure now to do so anachronistically to read it through gender ideology of today. So I have to accept that the reason I was going to do medieval manuscripts is because I can translate and transcribe, and this is something objective that I can do. I can produce an edition of texts which aren’t readily available and explain them. And that’s the only real way that I’m able to look at religious writing by and about women in the objective way. And it isn’t really I want to do. So I stepped away for a year and in that year I started writing about postmodernism, about feminism, about liberalism and ideology. And then there just got to be so much to do with that. That I haven’t gone back at all so involved in writing about what’s going on right now. And so that is where I’m now. I see. Well, it’s interesting because you talked about your belief that women in the mid stages of development of the Christian church were using the ideas to actually liberate themselves. And to. Yeah, I’m looking for example from Marjorie Kemp to Amelia Lanya and we’re looking at very different ways in which you know within the Catholic narrative, for example, women would say well God speaks directly to me. He is the ultimate patriarch. This gives me a certain authority to disagree with a patriarchal if I think it’s fair with my husband. And then later after the reformation there was a slightly different emphasis in which women, you know, everyone can interpret the Bible and that includes women. So there was a different kind of authority there too. So that’s generally been what I’ve been interested in. There’s slightly different ways that women have approached biblical texts, biblical narratives and yes and used them to challenge sort of mainstream interpretations and make some pretty good arguments. Well, Amelia Lanya certainly did. Marjorie Kemp mostly swindled. Okay, so why don’t we start by why are you guys telling us what the genesis of this project was? Let’s outline the project itself, the sequence of papers that you wrote and let’s talk about the genesis of that as well. So I want you to take that one. Yeah, okay. It’s really kind of kind of interesting. I don’t know if your audience would know this Jordan or not but all three of us you know we’re writing a bit within what might have been considered the new atheist vein and working within that and then I was working on a book trying to answer my big kind of early 2010s research question what do people mean when they say God. I was writing a book called that I eventually titled Everybody is Wrong About God and Peter called me one day while I was working on either the book itself or the research for it. I don’t recall the specifics at the time but he called me one day and said you know dude dude I think I’m going crazy. I keep trying to tell people something that’s as obvious as can be to me and somebody has to believe I’m not crazy. Everybody thinks I’m nuts. Please tell me I’m not crazy and so I said you know what is it and he said I look at the way people in gender studies use their scholarly canon the way they produce that the way that they refer to it the fact that it seems disconnected in a literal sense from what’s going on in reality and it feels like it’s their bible. It feels like it’s a holy scripture for something like a religion. Am I going nuts and as it turned out the reason I started writing the book Everybody is Wrong About God was partly to answer my big research question but it was also because I noticed that the community built up around new atheist activism which called itself the atheism community showed almost all of the symptoms of qualifying as a religion at least from like Durkheim’s perspective and maybe even from some others. So I immediately latched on to what Pete said and I said no you’re not crazy I think you’re probably right. I think you are absolutely right that the scholarly canon in gender studies and so on is operating like a book of faith for something but I don’t know exactly what this is and so we got curious about that scholarly canon kind of from that point. It wasn’t long after that that the infamous feminist glaciology paper came out where the a few four or five researchers published a very well-funded study showing or claiming to show that that glaciology is inherently sexist all the way back to its roots back to you know the intrepid explorers of mountains and polar regions and all this so it is justified by being a big tough guy in the 19th century or whatever and that apparently somehow this masculinist bias hangs over and so the answer to this is to put feminist art projects as part of glacier science and indigenous mythologies as part of glacier science or else it’s racist and sexist and I mean I remember reading the paper lightly at the time and thinking there’s no way this is real and Peter and I had a phone call we started looking at new peer review on the twitter at the same time. Oh you should never look at that. Oh my gosh. So we’ve actually got two issues here then let’s say now all of a sudden because yeah there’s a there’s the there’s the issue of what’s going on in the social justice oriented academic disciplines and then there’s a deeper issue of how people view the world individually and collectively yes through the lens of a belief system and the probability that that belief system will take on something approximating the trappings of a religious movement. Yes. So that’s a deeper question I mean one of the things that I discussed continually with Sam Harris when we had our series of debates was the question of the inescapability of something approximating a religious framework to orient people in relationship to action in the world because I like I happen to believe that a framework like that is inescapable the question is not whether you’re going to have one it’s which one you’re going to have and what is it going to be rooted in and I mean one of the things I think that both Nietzsche and Dostoevsky warned people about in the late 19th century was that what what this isn’t a quote from either of them but it’s something approximating someone else whose name I don’t remember he who believes in nothing will end up believing in anything and that and there’s something there’s something in that that’s extraordinarily deep as far as I’m concerned all right so you were interested in religious phenomenology and then you guys started to see that as far as you were concerned a variety of different quasi-academic or academic movements were taking on the trappings of a of a of religious they were starting to look religious in their approach and in their application of their beliefs right on the on the social justice end of it right the community for example was definitely engaging in of course they had kind of their their unique vocabulary that they speak to one another and identify one another by which is kind of like an ecclesiastical vocabulary but of social justice and then they were definitely involved what what they call political correctness is in practice virtually identical to what you see with people crying blasphemy um so these parallels started to stick out at the same time the way that we started looking at the real peer review twitter account and the way that they seem to be producing their knowledge that they could then refer to virtually replicates special revelation the they came up with their ideas they believe that they came from some morally backed source of uh of goodness and then put them forth and then they were were morally vetted and given an epistemological status they didn’t deserve as a result okay what do you think the source is the source at the time i had no idea but now after having done the project i think the source is actually what i’ve come to call a postmodern mythology that our social reality is conditioned upon use of language and representation and it’s all done in service to power dynamics that underlie how society works those power dynamics are trapped up in identity and mediated primarily through language and media okay okay so i’ve identified the sources of that not and not only me obviously but i’ve identified the sources of that belief with the french postmodernist movement fundamentally other people trace some of it back farther to what’s essentially something approximating a marxist doctrine which is the doctrine of which is a doctrine of power relations i would say sure you have any criticisms or further comments on that let’s call it genealogy genealogy or lin or helen yeah helen helen good yeah no i i largely agree i i with the idea that that we had a quite a profound epistemic shift in the late 60s with the rise of the postmodernists i disagree with people who cry and kind of relate this closely to marxism i think it’s clear that they they have a common ancestor and that they have certain ideas in common but if we conflate marxism and postmodernism um too closely on more than those yeah that that sort of oppressor and oppressed group that sort of um false consciousness these sort of key ideas which really were floating around at the same time and they’ve come up in the same place if we can flake those too closely and we are not looking at the really profound differences in epistemology in which marxism was really trying to continue a modernist project it was totalitarian it was objectivist mostly and it went sort of in a straight line and the if there was a word for the extremes of marxism it is totalitarianism if there’s a word for the extremes of postmodernism it’s disintegration it’s fragmentation so we’re looking now at something very different something very intangible that is coming in and it’s saying we cannot access an objective truth everything is created in discourses in powers in systems of power and privilege okay so so why in the world is power privileged then i mean it still seems that the postmodernists are willing to assume that the pursuit of power is first of all obvious that everyone’s pursuing it but that it’s also okay for those who don’t have it to pursue it so it’s not as if they’ve abandoned the idea as far as i can tell of a of a linear narrative towards some end the end seems to me to be power and so why is that justifiable from the postmodern perspective given that linear movement and meta narratives are justifiable because of the change that happened in the late 80s so when sokol for example he he did his hoax what he was looking at was this quite sort of pure postmodernism this um very sort of intangible idea that an objective reality can’t exist that we can’t grasp anything that everything is a construct but what happened in the 80s gradually was that this just after prolific amounts of writing it just kind of fizzled because once you’ve disintegrated and dismantled absolutely everything and it’s all in a mess on the floor you have got nowhere to go with this so we started seeing then the rise in materialist feminism first of all and then within sort of critical race approaches intersectionality in queer theory in post-colonialism particularly we started seeing a change towards okay so everything is a cultural construct but we can’t address anything if we don’t accept that a certain group of people in a certain place at a certain time experience certain things so what we’re looking at now is an objective reality that oppression and systems of power exist but but everything else is socially constructed so the fundamental transcendence reality to power but that construct has power yes it is objectively true that power is benefiting straight white men and disadvantaging women of color trans women etc so this this was the the change that happened then so now it’s politically actionable and this i mean kimberly cranshell put this most explicitly when she said it’s politics applied to post-modern theory okay so that shift now okay so we want to get this straight because it’s very very important so you just you distinguish the post-modern movement from the marxist movement because the marxism marxists were still moving in a single direction and you considered that still part of the modernist project you equated marxism and post-modernism insofar as they both adopt let’s say an oppressor oppression oppression narrative yes although many other things do too and often that that’s quite warranted i mean the the american um revolution for example was an oppressor oppressed revolution there’s no doubt that there’s no doubt that power and power differentials exist the issue is not there are other realities that might be considered exactly the issue is whether that we’re seeing them truly yes well and and whether it’s reasonable to reduce everything to a single dimension of motivation so modern project collapses into its own nihilism and something emerges out of the ashes and that’s the uh assumption that a transcendent reality does in fact exist but that the only defining feature of that transcendent reality is the existence of power and the existence of power differential but then yes and identity and that’s associated with identity okay but then the question becomes there’s a question that goes underneath that even which is well why is it why is it that is accepted as the fundamental reality because there’s no rationale for that in post-modernism itself in fact the modernists should criticize that presumption they do they do very much and this is the argument that goes on repeatedly with the old style post-modernists saying this isn’t post-modernism and so we we’ve tended to call it applied post-modernism and john nurse called it the pomoid cluster because it’s just a set of ideas about identity about power about privilege about language the importance of of language and um and and hierarchies and things which have come from post-modernism which have got politicized and then within activism have got condensed into kind of user-friendly chunks and further bastardized so we can’t we can’t take this away from post-modernism it didn’t come from anywhere else but neither is it the the the pure sort of deconstructive or post-structuralist or any of that of that whole sort of massive range of theory that existed from the late 60s into the mid 80s that that died it’s it’s gone it’s fragmented itself as it was always bound to do so to drive to your question about why or how they justify this change um i’ll just say we we called this this set of disciplines or approaches grievance studies for a reason it’s about grievances it’s the politics of grievance so they feel aggrieved therefore they feel justified in trying to disrupt power they see that exists and to claim power for themselves it’s social revenge that’s what they’re that’s what their animus is that’s their moral justification for for continuing to fragment and and to chase the very thing they say is you know the great corrupter of man which is power okay so it doesn’t so it doesn’t really matter if this is true and and i do i have some sympathy with that claim it doesn’t matter that there are philosophical incoherencies within the structure within the intellectual structure at all what matters is that there’s an animus and a motive and the motive is fundamentally something approximating revenge why why would you say look why would you say revenge and not justice like and and this this goes to another issue which is obviously all three of you oppose this movement and we’ve already decided in this discussion that it’s something like the revenge of the marginalized but the marginalized could well object well this isn’t revenge you only see it that way because you’re part of the privileged power group and it’s actually a search for uh it’s a search for it’s a search a genuine search for justice you’re also most of the marginalized aren’t social justice-orientated that that’s what we have to remember this is speaking on behalf of women and racial and sexual minorities most members of every group are do not ascribe to it they’re they’re politically diverse so it’s um okay so that’s good point that’s good point so that’s one of the reasons that that the claim for the pursuit of justice is invalidated it’s that there’s no evidence whatsoever that the activist types who dominate these disciplines are valid representatives of the communities that they purport to stand for in fact if you survey the communities themselves uh in any reasonable manner then the communities indicate their lack of agreement with with this way of looking at the world yeah yes okay okay and of course there is also the the complicating element that nearly always appears that you do have kernels of truth on both sides of that discussion there are legitimate questions of justice that are being tied up into this and then there are legitimate reasons to see it as being motivated primarily by something approximating revenge or grievance or reparations or something like that and they get intertwined and as you were mentioning with anytime you’re working with postmodern epistemologies there’s no reason to expect consistency they reject consistency as as as a bug in the system uh they’re unrepentant that unrepentant about being inconsistent so that’s no small point and and i think for people watching that that point needs to be punched home so jim could you speak to a little more about that well yeah it’s um um the the idea that you would be consistent is one of the ideas that would be caught up in the western philosophical tradition as they would phrase it it’s caught up in the exact tradition that was bred of white and male power and so that needs to be disrupted because that power inherently from the perspective of this uh worldview that power inherently corrupts but more importantly and inherently always acts to preserve and maintain and legitimize itself so the demand for consistency becomes itself an act of oppression against people exactly exactly yep that all seems reasonable to me so so look so so here’s a peculiar thing and it’s an observation of something approximating let’s say that freudian notion of projection um the people who are pushing this viewpoint aren’t legitimate representatives of their communities in any real sense of the matter and they push a particular viewpoint that has very little academic credibility as far as i’m concerned and and is primarily concerned with political activism and with the obtaining or the justification of obtaining power now we could assume that this is being done on behalf of the people who are putting forward the doctrine and so to me this is a I’ve come to understand that part of the reason that people cling to their belief systems is because they have their the reason they have the moral authority to occupy the hierarchical position that society has granted them is because they’re regarded as experts in a in a belief structure and if the that their claim to that expertise is questioned then their moral justification for occupying their position is eradicated and it’s their position that gives them purpose in life and that protects them from uncertainty and anxiety it’s not the belief structure itself you see it’s the fact that they’re experts in the belief system and that justifies their position in the hierarchy so they put forward this claim to continue justifying the fact that they occupy very perversely and this is the freudian projection issue very perversely the very positions of power whose existence they criticize this would be university professor types in particular that seems reasonable to you or or is there something wrong with that line no that that comports actually with what i’ve drawn from reading john hight for example who talks about psycho so psycho social valuation the way that human beings do that with one another how we identify where we stand in our social life and how we identify where we stand in our social and moral hierarchies and how we where we position ourselves and others and each other in relation to one another and that one of those three dimensions he named divinity and so that would be the the part you’re speaking to so we gain we gain status in the hierarchy through our closeness of kin so if you and i are friends you rank me higher than i probably deserve because that’s how humans do and we gain status by reputation and that’s why we care what michael jordan thinks about politics and we gain status by our moral standing which is what john hight called divinity and of course he explored it primarily in the happiness hypothesis with regard to his trips i think to india and seeing a traditional religion and then comparing that directly against the so-called weird societies in western democracies and i think that what we’re actually seeing in a lot of these cases as we’re seeing partly at least people are acting out what often gets conflated with religion in fact is that they’re acting out the need to fulfill or participate in that third dimension of psychosocial valuation although in secular societies we throw out the the explicit religious structure for it and we have to find it in other ways so that’s what you’re actually talking about they they occupy a moral expertise that moral expertise gives them standing within the prevailing moral and social maloo and then that defines their place in the community as in both in terms of prestige and in terms of hierarchical so they’re basically acting out precisely what they’re accusing all other disciplines of doing and the difference irony okay and the difference is the thing is the difference as far as i’m concerned is that if you look at a discipline like engineering which i think is perhaps as close to the polar opposite of this might be managed one of the things that engineers do is look at the world in a certain certain way but another thing they do is build bridges exactly right that’s right there’s an objective real world direction to their to their philosophizing and their belief that results in something of tangible and universally recognized benefit to the community at large and something that can fail right right right also that’s very important okay now okay next issue so now the first issue the first of the next two issues say is why is it that you three found yourself in the position where you decided to take this on as a critical project and why is it that so few other academics are doing so i don’t have good answers for why so few academics are doing so because i don’t want to just blatantly call people cowards that i don’t know but you don’t get treated well for fighting let’s dig into that a bit okay because i think i think cowardice is one or fear and let’s let’s not fear let’s call it fear and let’s also note that the fear is well justified very justified that’s correct right well peter you’re in a great position to speak to that because look what’s happening to you yeah so i don’t know if you want to go down the path of what’s happening to me yet but i i think you’re right our mutual friend brett weinstein said to me that academia when we had a conversation about academia self-selecting for cowardice and i think it’s a process that people go through before they have tenure where they’re afraid to buck the system afraid to challenge ideas they’re afraid to question because they won’t get tenure and then once they do get tenure then they won’t they won’t climb that that so the same thing happens in corporations at the middle manager level like it’s not a disease that’s endemic to to academia no well it’s not but it’s one variable in a suite of variables that we have to take a look at the other one is the culture in which the cultural milieu that jim spoke about in which people are terrified to be called sexist racist bigot they don’t challenge those i’m even hesitant to say the things they don’t challenge but i’ll say it like race and iq or trans issues trans bathroom issues if you teach an ethics class people won’t really dig into those issues in a substantive way but i think that there are many factors that but not just one but it’s interesting that people will come up to jim and myself and i haven’t spoken explicitly to helen about this and they’ll thank me yeah oh thank you so much oh great can you do that publicly no no i no no no no yeah the same thing happened to me so so i think peter we should talk about what’s happening to you because look we can talk about fear we can talk about cowardice we could talk about justifiable fear because there’s no there’s no pleasure in being isolated and mobbed and undermined and fired right so that the the apprehension of that is not merely cowardice it’s it’s it’s realistic and i’m not underestimating the potential role the additional role of cowardice but then there’s another issue too here that i’ve been thinking about it’s like to me many of these postmodern activist propositions are so fundamentally absurd and so academically weak that most serious social scientists and pretty much all serious stem types the stem researchers have just ignored them yeah you know they thought they were beneath contempt and right well i seriously mean that because when i look at an idea you know a brilliant postmodern activist idea like intersectionality or like patriarchy theory or like white privilege all you have to do is spend an hour thinking through those things critically and you realize that there’s absolutely nothing whatsoever to the methodologically or conceptually as as jim was saying you know that there can be a kernel of truth in things but when they are theoretically built up i mean obviously there are societies in which white people are regarded more positively on average but this is something that can be measured empirically which can be looked at which can be talked about and we don’t actually have that we have imaginary knapsacks and talk of complicity and and epistemological environments in which white people literally can’t understand what’s going on so we get it we get a big mess and it’s it’s this kernel of truth is in there and so that gives them the opportunity to kind of retreat to this sensible space where they’ll say but there is racism and that there is sexism well yes of course there is but what you’re doing here with these theoretical concepts is is not looking realistically and reasonably at that right they also there’s also a problem of univariate reduction right it’s like okay well racism is a problem and sexism is a problem we’ll say and well any form of discrimination that isn’t associated with the hypothetical outcome of the project is a problem but there are methods that everyone who’s a decent social scientist knows to measure those and to estimate the proportion of the variance in the outcome problem that those issues are accounting for and the postmodern activist types do absolutely none of that yeah what’s working in our organization yeah what you said i mean why would they because they don’t care about they’re agenda driven and they’re they’re not truth oriented so there’s there’d be no point to even think like that well they also can’t they don’t have the method they don’t have the training knowledge exactly so so that also provides additional impetus for being motivated to criticize those that do because it’s a lot easier than facing the reality and the consequences of your own ignorance and because let’s talk about what’s happening to you because i want to know about the cost that you’re bearing for this and then we’ll go back to why you guys to do what you did so psu like many college campuses has become an ideological community and i’ve demonstrated that i don’t fit that mold and i suspect that they’re going to go to great lengths to get rid of me so what’s happened is i’ve been found guilty of not seeking irb approval and okay you should tell the viewers what that means and provide some background detail because it’s okay okay so irb approval is there’s uh it’s called irb institutional review board and whenever you do a an experiment on human subjects human beings or animals by the way you need to go through the irb and you need to get permission and you detail exactly what it is that you’re going to do and they say to you well you have to change this you have to do this don’t do this etc and then they give you permission okay now these these systems just a little more background these systems were originally set up fundamentally to monitor relatively or potentially dangerous medical experimentation on human beings but they’ve expanded their purview so that now it’s impossible for anybody who’s an academic in any institution to even interview people without seeking permission from a very vast and rigid bureaucratic structure that’s easily politicized yeah they came out of and they do exist for good reasons the nurrenberg trials manually etc etc and people were and that envelope has has uh the number of experiments or the number of things that are caught under that umbrella continues to increase we can talk about the ethics of the irb more generally but in our case or particularly my case but the irb has no jim and and james and helen don’t fall under the auspices of psc’s irb so they can’t be sanctioned i however allegedly can can be sanctioned so i’ve been found guilty on that first charge which how and why now look let’s let’s tell everybody you guys published a sequence of papers how many papers in in journals is it how many so we we wrote 20 seven of them were accepted and four were published okay on the cusp of publication for example okay okay so let’s get it straight here these are satirical publications that were published in hypothetically serious academic journals and now peter you’re being gone after for not seeking institutional review board permission to publish studies that didn’t exist yeah two things that’s the first thing i’ve been found guilty of that and it’s escalated to the provost and the president of the university and i believe that the provost is a former gender studies scholar and i’ll just names of those people just i’ll let that sit there i do i do i can’t pronounce the president’s name to be blunt with you and the provost is new provost i’m not avoiding the question i just don’t okay well that’s fine we can always put that in the description of the video so so what do you get him exactly because these studies didn’t exist you didn’t undertake research on any human subjects they’ve decided that the journals editors and peer reviewers are the human subjects that we were studying so not the studies themselves but go up one level of meta to the fact that we were studying the culture of um journal journal review and publication so the editors who are not anonymous and then the anonymous peer reviewers are considered to be the human subjects of our i suppose i see so that’s supposed to be distinguishable from you thinking and writing about the things that you encounter in your own life for example which is also what now supposed to be subject to IRB approval yeah so so okay so there’s a lot of moving parts of this so we need to break it down i want to i want to continue with the excuse me guilty of not seeking IRB approval that can include term up determination from my current position and i just want to speak to that before i talk about the data fabrication charges so i don’t agree with the decision but i definitely understand the pressures that they have on them to do something who knows what’s happening precious pressures from who these activist types are a very tiny proportion of the population so and when we’re talking about pressure what exactly do we mean well there was an anonymous hit piece by 12 or 11 of my colleagues published in the student newspaper the portland vanguard and they may be a small representation it’s unclear to me in in academia i don’t think they’re a small proportion of the right they are a large and i think that they wield institutionalized power and have weaponized things like title 9 against people they don’t like so there’s that but i do want to say i i don’t really know what’s happening behind the scenes i my guess is these this group is extraordinarily vocal but what they’re faced with now is a decision for what kind of university they want to be is it one that uses power to support freedom of inquiry and pursue the truth or do they want to protect social justice at all costs and the fabrication of data thing is interesting because that’s an ongoing it’s a currently ongoing investigation and again those are very very serious charges let’s look at it here too like there’s a very big difference and let’s get this very clear between a self-admitted satire which which had historical precedent and which has ethical justification even if you don’t agree with the justification and data fabrication data fabrication occurs when you put data forward and you claim that it’s a truthful representation of a real world situation obviously that’s distinct from satire and comedy everyone understands that distinction well the i the idea is that those rules were put in there for very good reasons and that is people wouldn’t use that to advance their careers which and they wanted to hide the results so they don’t didn’t want anybody to see what it was so the problem with that is that it would as soko wrote that it would contaminate the research lines in perpetuity so what the success of our project depended upon it being revealed so that no longer applies and the idea that we would somehow not only have i not benefited from this but this has come at tremendous cost to me so it’s it’s in my opinion it is a grotesque abuse of what it means to fabricate data and it would be interesting to see it’ll be interesting to see what happens and be interesting to see when it goes to court okay and so so well yeah tell me about the proceedings when it goes to court what kind of court is it going to i don’t know i mean first let me even take a step back from there so if you look at the timeline of events when this occurred and i have that off the top of my head but uh the the when i was found guilty from the irb it’s been a series of uh not seeking irb approval there was a series of a time when the university president could just end this just like that you can say well we’re gonna put a a letter of reprimand in your uh we’re gonna we’ve you’ve already been in this they can end this and it won’t already found guilty of yeah so that they who found you guilty that was the irb and the day was december 14th i see so the irb is policing its own its own policies here yeah so that was the irb charge the open the data falsification charge is open and still being investigated uh and that actually started i think like two or three days after we went public he got an email and said you’ve been summoned to a meeting okay we were all in portland together at the time and i was over the irb which purports to be an ethics committee doesn’t have any problem with the ethics of policing themselves i know okay so we might want to point that out very strongly they’re not in a position to be policing accordance with their own policies not a conflict of interest clearly there’s something appalling about that and it’s not surprising because there’s plenty of polling about the institutional review boards and i i’m guilty all right i’ve been found guilty it’s been escalated to the president and again the president could just decide just like that you know we’re just going to put a letter in this file of reprimand and we’re going to move on and i think that the whole problem would be uh ended except my my guess is that there are a lot of people crying for vengeance right now against me right so they want to hang you out to dry as an object lesson to people who would dare to do the things that you three have done because i’m a heretic and i’m a blasphemer and i have attacked their cannons uh and there has to be some price that’s paid for this that’s my guess on their thinking and then the fabrication of data charge again that’s a very serious charge data and those rules are put in put in place for a reason i don’t think a court would find i mean it would be interesting to see when this goes to court or if it does even go to court the idea that this was fabricated either for personal gain or that would have to not be revealed at some time and that the future lines of literature would be contaminated and polluted it’s just it’s just not true and i think that well it’s also a clear it’s a career ending charge so that’s partly why it’s being brought against you right data fabrication there isn’t anything worse well there isn’t anything worse within the domain of science than you can do that you can do than that and it’s really unfortunate and preposterous because the data fabrication occurred intentionally in the sense that we wanted to find out if they could detect because we suspected from the very beginning as we were kind of discussing earlier that these people who largely work in the humanities are not equipped to do social science but that’s ultimately what they’re basically doing and so we wanted to see if they could detect utterly ridiculous data or data that were clearly cherry-picked or data or conclusions i should say that were drawn from data that aren’t warranted and so we wrote papers that included in this case for example a dog park paper just transparently ridiculous data and in fact the first draft of that paper even we we knew the data were so bad that they were probably going to ask to see it and we thought that’s the end of the road okay let’s go through the papers then so so we’ll talk about the dog park paper why don’t you go through the papers that have been published just briefly okay they are and and and tell us why they’re transparently ridiculous because that’s also a bold contention right because yeah yeah the dog park paper was the first one we had accepted in february and it chronicles it’s a feminist scholar putatively that’s chronicling dog rape culture by examining dog humping in portland dog parks and then draws conclusions from that using black feminist criminology as a tool to conclude that it would be appropriate to train men as we train dogs if only it were politically feasible so we have to come up with metaphorical equivalence and that it concludes that oppression of dogs based on perceived gender is real and the reason that that was allegedly concluded was we claimed that humans intervened and broke up gay dog rape much more frequently and vigorously than they broke up straight dog rape and the paper i mean it’s already a bit weird what’s the data about these things the paper the paper included for instance the detail that the that the scholar sat in the dog park for a thousand hours over the course of a year but never in the heavy rain and observed uh and then examined personally closely examined the genitals of just short of 10 000 dogs which if you’ve been to a dog park you probably realize the same people bring their dogs almost every day it’s there’s not 10 000 dogs in any dog park in a year but never mind that somewhat likely to develop a reputation for looking at dogs genitals yeah i think so and then immediately turning to ask their owners excuse me sir could you tell me your sexual orientation because that’s what the paper says we examine the 10 000 dogs genitals of 10 000 dogs and then interrogated their owners as to their sexual orientations okay it includes details that are irrelevant like whether dogs use the bathroom in the in the on other dogs or in the the food bowl um the water bowl it talked about you know the way people would break up dog fights like doing jumping jackson singing we thought this data was so absurd that we put in the first draft which the journal saw a line that said that we took the data and put it in a recycle bin so that they couldn’t possibly ask us to produce it because we thought oh man if they asked for this data which is so stupid it’s over so we said that we recycled the data which is already its own research mispractice and no problem you know the journal was like oh just write it up okay i can’t believe we’re having this conversation okay listen the more we talk about this the more ridiculous it gets okay okay so let’s go on to another paper let’s see jesus that’s just unbearable it’s okay there was the paper where we argued that if straight white straight men i’m sorry it doesn’t matter what their race is if straight men were to anally penetrate themselves with sex toys they’d become less transphobic and more feminist um which apparently got picked up that conversation either you may not want to have that conversation but this data was this this conclusion which was called a truly marvelous paper and an important contribution to knowledge by one of its reviewers this paper was published um this paper was based on interviews with 13 men only eight of whom were straight and of course it was all interview data and it was just just people saying the most ridiculous things about their experience of sticking things in their own butts and then their feelings about feminism and uh concern for rape culture and their attitudes about trans people and so on including one so-called social conservative who was quoted saying he didn’t want to take part in some stupid liberal study about sticking things up his butt i mean it’s almost impossible to have looked at this and not thought you know something’s going on here but instead they thought truly marvelous paper important contribution to knowledge it’s that that’s a second paper a third paper um was an ethnography allegedly of a 70 some odd year old man who went to hooters with his brazilian jujitsu class after workouts and sat there and basically just womanized for hours upon hours it recorded something like 10 000 hours or sorry 10 000 minutes of of conversation at the table which could all be summarized this was an example of clear cherry picking of data the only features of the conversation that were relevant were the way that the guys hit on the servers or talked about the servers you know various body parts or most importantly how much they enjoyed the fact that hooters provides them a place that they can go and tell young attractive women what to do in a situation in which they are contractually obligated to fulfill those those orders like literally double entendre on the word order like please i would like some beer that’s an order so um that was an example of clear cherry picking and of course deriving ridiculous conclusions uh didn’t you guys know while you were doing this that you were going to get yourself in like a boatload of trouble i mean and now i see when you’re talking about it you laugh and so you’ve still got a sense of humor which is quite a remarkable thing but i mean you did this for a long time and like yeah it’s hard to believe actually that you did manage to do it i had some some moments especially where uh i mean we were always aware that there would be a backlash and then when i started actually signing the transfer of copyright documents to have the papers actually published i started to feel a little like you know we might really get in some trouble for this but at this point we’re kind of in deep and uh might as well carry on and try to finish the experiment we had intended to try to write papers for 12 months and then spend six to eight months kind of you know following up the academic publishing process is slow they do the review you get it back a couple months later you have to do edits it takes maybe another month or two before they accept or whatever then publication maybe another couple months later so all that’s slow so we wanted to a lot you know six eight months after 12 months of writing and that was the intended duration that we should be wrapping up the project now if we didn’t get busted but about late summer the the dog park paper got picked up um by some journalists and the real peer review and got made fun of and we realized we were probably not going to make it to the end of our intended year and a half ish time span so we ended up writing for 10 total months which is a bit of time and then we had a lot of papers still under review which was really a shame because i’m fairly they had to go in but i do want to speak to that jordan because somebody had to do this yeah okay why why i’m not disputing it because the ideology because the these professors are looking at their classrooms as an ideology mill and they’re attempting to indoctrinate people into things about reality that have nothing to do with reality they’ve placed an agenda ahead of the truth and it’s corroding our institutions and it’s eroding trust in those universities and institutions and you identified the problem many people identified the problem but something had to be done about it beyond identification and calling these people out we needed to show that we needed to delegitimize these canons because they’re the way that they were coming to knowledge is just epistemologically to say it’s not rigorous is charitable so they’re kind of a few pieces to that right so you everybody as we mentioned a little bit earlier we touched upon is now familiar with the idea that racism and sexism don’t seem to mean the same thing they meant 10 years ago that you used to be able to say racist and sexist and it meant discrimination based on race or sex and it could go in any direction but now it’s got this this power dynamic privilege plus power stuff everybody’s talking about privilege so that’s everywhere but if that’s one dimension that it’s impossible to avoid that these sociological or or grievance studies definitions for concepts are are everywhere but there are also two other pieces of evidence one that we saw before we started that would be a paper that was done by charlotta stern who documented how insular gender studies is how they literally took the years since stephen pinker published the blank slate 2003 until 2015 or 16 she looked at a bunch of papers got a sample of those papers and determined whether or not they incorporated or ignored the information that pinker had shared as a as a as a test and found that there was an overwhelming amount of just putting the blinkers on and pretending that biology still doesn’t exist and and that human nature is totally socially part of that’s not a pretense either is that the people who are well the pretense here i mean the reason it’s not a pretense is because as far as i can tell the people who are in these disciplines know absolutely nothing whatsoever about biology no they don’t want to that’s true the less you know about biology the more you don’t want to know that you need to know something about because it’s a daunting task yeah i want to speak to that for a moment if i may so at my university there’s a course offered on the philosophy of race and it would seem to me that a minimum qualification one would need to teach that is that one would have to have some kind of degree in evolutionary biology but uh that does not seem to be the case and i think again we’re seeing consistently you know race is such an explosive explosive topic but when you start with the idea that you have the truth and then you work backward and cherry pick the literature and in this case it’s extraordinarily easy because you just go to these the journals and the canons of literature and then you start teaching that so what happens then is the kind of the self-fulfillment of the post-modern condition is that they then manufacture pieces of information that people take as knowledge that’s right we see that happening in our institutions now and it’s nobody’s calling them out on it so it’s again i say that because it speaks to your point of why did we do this because the public trust in these institutions is being eroded and we’re teaching our kids things that are just not true they’re just they’re totally untethered to reality even though some of these people may be very well meaning and there’s always a citation we learned there’s always a citation always a citation you want to find something that says anything ridiculous about sex toys and anal taken care of there’s a citation questions power dynamics using that already there’s always a citation that that really is that is the important thing to sort of realize it about what we did i mean all of that ridiculous stuff that that jim was saying earlier he we were able to say that because there was already something out there which led to it or said it itself and so if you’re actually looking at what our project is something that’s very important to look at is our references because to make it’s it’s satire i mean some of it like the dog park really yeah it’s there’s there’s humorous there’s a very humorous element in it but on a on a sort of deeper level what it is is just gathering so much of this nonsense together citing it putting it in there and then kind of making it do whatever it whatever we wanted it to do that that was was the project and it’s so your point is that you had to embed your satire within a pre-existent literature or it it couldn’t have flown and that’s right that was actually like you could do papers like they really i mean a lot of the some of the academics have said well we haven’t been fooled because we still stand by the papers what you wrote was reasonable because they are indistinguishable and that really was kind of the point we wanted to have we’ve ended up with a really good resource for anyone who wants to know what is out there they can look at our our references they can look at the arguments that they enabled us to make they can look at how the reviewers what they rejected us for what they accepted us for what they pushed us to do there’s a very clear pattern but because it is so complicated and so few people have taken the time it would take to read all of our papers to read all of the comments to follow up our rem our references it’s not always clear that what we’re doing is putting it right in the canon that is why you know the other issue and this this has to do with the motivation of other academics not to be bothered with this let’s say is that the stat that i’m most familiar with is that about 80 percent of humanities papers get cited zero times and the problem is that even to go after very bad ideas in an academically rigorous way is actually an extraordinarily daunting task and it might be daunting in direct proportion to the to the uh appallingness of the ideas so for example if you’re grading a very bad undergraduate essay it’s way more difficult to grade a d paper than it is to grade a b right because a d paper has so many errors in it you don’t even know where to start right the words are wrong the sentences are wrong the sentences aren’t organized in the paragraphs the paragraphs are chaotic and disjointed and the whole thing makes no sense and you actually have to there isn’t a level of criticism that can’t be applied to a very bad paper and so it’s absolutely exhausting intellectually apart from the danger that it poses personally and so you know before we assume that it’s mere lack of character on the part of our fellow academics that is stopping them from taking a stand against such things although i do buy the sort of entrenched cowardice idea that emerges as perhaps an inevitable consequence of participating in a structured hierarchy um it’s there are there are many more reasons why this is flourished including the inappropriate what would you call it subsidization of these viewpoints for the last 50 years yeah yeah i think that’s right it’s really really painstaking to pour through these papers and as a as a person you know with a commitment to science and a background in science it wasn’t just even painstaking i actually went into some pretty dark places dark psychological places i remember reading the so i mentioned reading the glaciology paper earlier the feminist glaciology but i didn’t read it in depth when we first found it but when we started to do this project i wanted to emulate it and write one about feminist astronomy and you know right great and i read the thing in tremendous depth and with great care taking notes all the way through and and you know preparing so i could could write a facsimile and i shut down i mean i just almost locked myself in a room by myself for three days in a dark depression that okay i had i had to talk him i had to talk him down because he just got so despairing and he was just quoting bits to me and he was going look at this how can this be look the same thing happened to me when i was writing 12 rules for life i wrote a chapter called don’t bother children when they’re skateboarding and it’s about the discouragement let’s say of of primarily of young men as a direct consequence of this the kind of rhetoric that we’re discussing and like that made me unbearable to my family for about three months because the more i studied it the more well it it has a really fragmenting and chaotic effect on on you psychologically and i’ve also seen this manifested in my students you know who who undergo this kind of activist uh uh indoctrination it’s such a it’s such a corrosive and cynical view of the world that all were we’re all in it in our groups and that all the groups are fighting one another for power and that that’s the fundamental transcendent reality it’s just yeah now imagine imagine the sort of person who looks at that as an epistemological and moral virtue and who teaches that to their students who attempts to indoctrinate their students into these not even they don’t even rise to the level of being false in terms of these morally dangerous ideas and then they think that they’re better people as a result and then they think that if somebody calls them out on it they’re evil okay so let’s look at look at this too so when height and lukinoff wrote the coddling of the american mind wonderful they pointed out as the american psychological association and the american psychiatric association should have that all of the safe space and and doctrines and trigger warning doctrines and and and that sort of thing um and the speech codes for example that are increasingly forbidding even sarcasm are exactly the opposite of the approach that you would take if you were a trained psychologist trying to produce people who are more resilient you actually make them weaker and more anxiety provoked and more anxiety prone more depressed and more hopeless and i think the evidence for that’s absolutely clear and i think it’s appalling that it wasn’t clinical psychologists or psychiatrists who pointed it out and so it is that the these doctrines are being put forth for the benefit of those who formulate the doctrines and that the students are sacrificial victims in that in that process yeah there’s more there’s one more piece that i think is important it goes back to what excuse me what jim said about not not seeing that a contradiction is problematic because the whole idea of contradiction is white science or western science and that’s that’s problematic is that we found that these folks don’t really value discourse and dialogue and so they don’t really value having ideas challenged in question that’s not their their reason for teaching these ideas in the first place and if i may give you a quick example excuse me portland state university wants to include or has included at this point a a course on native american philosophy which which i think is a great idea and well somebody in the audience asked a question and and the question was i went to a presentation and the question this individual asked was well what do we do as settlers as colonialists when we want to question or challenge these ideas in native american philosophy and the presenter said you know i’ve struggled with this it’s very difficult for me but the bottom line was it shouldn’t it should be exempt from traditional tools that we have used for other disciplines you know the dialectic the question the challenging and so that first of all that places me in an almost impossible position what am i supposed to do say you know why is it exempt why it should play by the rules of every other philosophy because then i become the guy who hates western who hates indigenous people who hates indigenous philosophy and then on the tool of the patriarchy which gets back to what your question we’re asking before is why do we have this violence in academia and what’s the problem with it so i think part of the problem is that these folks don’t value discourse they don’t value dialogue they don’t value open expression they don’t value they view that and again there’s a paper for this they view that as a type of violence words are a type of violence a type of verbal violence and so then their students develop brittle epistemologies because they’ve never heard the other side of the story right and they develop them just when they should be developing resilient resilient correct and yeah and as a litmus test i always i always ask folks why who are gender studies in my class or study in the grievance studies fields why isn’t martha newspombe’s criticism of judith butler taught and here a single single student who says yes i’ve learned about that in my classes well they don’t they don’t teach that because they have a prevailing moral orthodoxy and they want to indoctrinate students with it and they’ve kind of hijacked the administration and as i said before they’ve weaponized offices of diversity inclusion etc to punish people who are heretics and who question or challenge this okay so we’re going to run out of time here we’re running down to about 10 minutes here so i want to here’s a question that i want to raise to all three of you have two i think one is why in the world should anybody outside of academia care about this that’s the first thing and great question very careful answer that and the second is for each of you what’s been the personal consequence of this and would you have repeated it if you knew what the consequences were going to be so let’s start with the first one why in the world should any why in the world should anyone care that some half-witted academic journal published an insane paper by three renegade academics about what about dog rape of all the absurd of all the observed of all the observed observed topics it’s so surreal that it seems virtually incomprehensible sensible people should avoid it so what’s the answer to that well go ahead ellen yes if we are the university is it is our source of knowledge production if we look back through history when our cultures were christian the new knowledge about this was coming from the universities when we had the scientific revolution when we went into the enlightenment this was coming from the universities these things don’t stay in the universities we have seen it is coming out in it’s what has essentially happened with the kind of identity studies that we’re looking at is that it has been made directly actionable by activists it has then tagged on to the end of the civil rights movements and liberal feminism and gay pride when those movements have started to see diminishing returns and people wanted to continue then it’s it’s tagged on to the end of that to a society which has just seen the end of empire the end of jim crowe and geared towards towards social justice and it is kind it is it is seeded here also a warning to the corporations because it’s permeating the hr department don’t be yes it’s going to stay in the universities and don’t be thinking that you can import two percent of it without importing the other 98 percent yeah people leave university and they join these industries also there’s pressure on corporations um to comply with the the reigning moral orthodoxy i mean i don’t think that the average business owner or the average person in the street knows anything about fuko or crenshaw or even thinks much about this but it is in the air now and it is it is affecting it is affecting everything and we we do need to take it seriously without sort of having a moral panic we need to to look at it calmly and empirically and address it as it actually is yeah and what should we do about it that’s the next issue because that’s another podcast yeah okay fine that’s another question okay so then the final question for all three of you is and and maybe one at a time um would you do it again i would yeah i would definitely do it again um okay so we know that you’re an unrepentant troublemaker i am definitely an unrepentant trouble i’ve also found like my one great talent in the world and i feel like it i’ve made my own life obsolete now okay a wonderful bullshit artist if anybody’s looking for one um but yeah i would definitely do it again it’s worth the risk i think it needed to be done helen let’s ask you next and then we’ll get let peter have the last word because he’s the one that’s got the most on the line at the moment yes yes i i would do it again i mean i’ve um i was imagining all sorts of things from being arrested under sort of hate speech acts to being physically attacked because i have an uncommon name i’ve had an awful lot of online abuse i’ve got some persistent stalkers but that has essentially i probably won’t get into a phd program in my own country though somebody in germany has offered blesser but yeah it’s been um it’s been it’s been quite now it’s been survival it was worth doing i would do it again okay peter it hasn’t done it had to be done there’s a crisis in the universities there’s a crisis with knowledge production there’s a crisis of confidence uh this may come at a heavy price to me and i have had to weigh out my family obligations helping put my son through school you know being a part of a i’m married so being in a relationship in which i economically contribute to the to the house but this had to be done someone had to do it and if i am a consequence of this then so be it it had to be done yeah well peter we’re there’s a bunch of us who are not particularly inclined to let you be a sole sacrificial victim so if your university wants to get too stupid with you then um let’s let’s assume that there are going to be consequences i sincerely appreciate your support from the bottom of my heart thank you yeah well enough is enough so well look guys it was really good talking to you all i think that you’re quite the uh surreal bunch of troublemakers and perhaps exactly what this crazy situation requires and well and i and i hope that i hope peter that that things work out for you properly over the next few years it’s going to be a tough haul for a while there’s no doubt about so are you getting any student support at your university yeah i’m getting a lot of student support at the university but you know i have to be blunt with you i’ve people have threatened to attack me a few weeks ago someone spit at me my colleagues literally will walk down the corridor they’ll turn their heads it’s it’s uh but that you know the uncomfortable things they know that’s not that much different from the typical university department yeah it’s it’s it has seemed to be i am i mean i i want to be blunt with you yeah it is a concern for my safety in portland when i leave the house now and i’ve now been threatened on more than one occasion by people and i’m concerned do you do you do you find the threats credible i mean i know every every threat is upsetting but like are you actually in a situation where you have some apprehension about leaving your house or you are you i don’t have any apprehension about leaving my house uh look you know i wake up in the morning and i get emails and tweets people telling me how stupid i am and what a bad person i am and how i’m homophobe and racist etc that doesn’t do anything to me but when i walk out in the street it was out at the bar a few weeks ago or maybe a few months ago i don’t even know my timelines but you know someone someone came up to me and he started harassing me as fortunately as with my jujitsu coach john diggans and black belt and jujitsu and and he immediately pulled up the chair beside us and i kept saying let’s talk let’s have a conversation no he followed me in the bathroom i came out of the bathroom finally i said look i don’t know what’s happening i don’t know why you’re so upset but i’m happy to talk to you and he said i don’t want to talk to you peter i want to hurt you and that’s that’s pretty that’s pretty serious yeah and then it happened again on the street when i was surrounded about a week and a half ago by people i assume they’re antifa people or something clearly wanted to hurt me so you know i am i am concerned i am concerned well look look i mean those for people who haven’t been through it’s very hard for people who haven’t been through that sort of thing to understand just exactly how distressing that kind of occurrence is not only because it happens but because it could happen again and it could become more serious so i’m really sorry to hear that i didn’t realize it didn’t come to that that’s that’s no laughing matter i appreciate that and threats on your door left on your door and on any poster that’s got anything to do with you and there’s there’s there’s swastikas there’s insults there’s leaflets and notices and yeah that kind of stuff doesn’t bother me it’s when it’s in the physical world where i feel i feel someone i mean if someone tells you they’re going to hurt you you should take their word yes definitely when it’s that direct and when it’s that in your face those threats are credible that that’s that’s a real that’s a real danger so that’s that’s well look i’m really sorry to hear that and i’m i’m also sorry to hear that you’re paying a substantial i’m sorry to hear in general that you’re paying a substantive price for that um i’m going to do what i can for what that’s worth to try to make sure that people hear about this and that you’re not in it alone because i think you guys are like comedians you know your canary’s in the coal mine and whatever happens to you is going to happen to a lot of other people if if it’s allowed to happen to you so it can’t be allowed to happen to you that’s what it looks like to me so thank you thank you for your support yeah all right guys well look thanks a lot for talking to me all uh it was it was uh stupidly interesting talking with you you know it’s so ridiculous you you can’t you couldn’t invent this in a bad piece of fiction at all and it’s it’s so sad that that this is the sort of thing that we have to occupy ourselves with when there’s serious work to be done so all right well happy new year i suppose hopefully this will be a watershed year and things will get more intelligent from here on in again i’m sure hoping that’ll be the case me too thank you all right ladies and gentlemen thank you very much for your time and i’ll let you know when this is all coming online okay great okay thank you bye bye