Sanity - Live Navigation! (MjEqY2ks--s)

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The young girl dancing to the latest beat has found new ways to move her feet and the lonely voice of youth cries What is truth? Young man speaking in the city square trying to tell somebody that he cares Can you blame the voice of youth for asking What is truth? Yeah, the ones that you’re calling wild are gonna be the leaders in a little while When will the lonely voice of youth cry What is truth? This old world’s wakin’ to a newborn babe And our solemn lists swear it’ll be their way You better help that voice of youth find What is truth? And the lonely voice of youth cries What is truth? Alright, welcome. I know it’s been a couple of weeks. I went on a little vacationy trip trip. Went on the conference over in Washington, D.C. So that was fun. Very interesting stuff. And now I’m back. So I’m back. I’ve got my Sam Pell. I’ve got some tea from the Table Rock Tea Company, my Marathon Tea. Mmm. Which we’re gonna need. Because, you know, to keep our sanity. I’ve got some crunching munch, which everybody well knows because everyone here is educated. It’s the greatest snack ever. And I got Jordan almonds because this is what happens when I go to the grocery store unattended. You get all kinds of junk food. I have to eat it because junk food. So, alright. I’m a little discombobulated. Things got a little crazy. There was a snake in my house while I was gone. And I got rid of him an hour and a half ago. So yeah, he, very sneaky snake. Let’s hope he doesn’t try to hone in on the livestream for us here. Topic today is the thing that I’m going to lose if the snake shows up, which is sanity. And, you know, as always with these things, it’s sort of a last minute kind of scramble. We sort of think we know what we’re gonna do, you know, from the previous livestream and then bang, something else comes up. And that’s what happens. But there’s so much richness in this topic, especially recently, right? Manuel did a great video the other day with Gavin. And there’s a good example and representation of sanity. We were talking earlier today about, I had seen a clip when I went to the Billy Graham library of Billy Graham talking to Woody Allen. So Woody Allen used to have a talk show, I guess. Anyway, so you’re talking about like, oh, you can tell he’s not a sane person because Billy Graham interacts with Woody Allen and you can just kind of tell. And so you were talking about what are the tells for that. So I’m gonna do videos and all that. And I got a lot of videos that I recorded and for some reason I didn’t. I was like, I could release like three videos while I’m on vacation. And then, of course, I totally sidetracked. And that’s part of sanity, right? When you lose your interaction with, we’ll say, what’s going on in the world, right? You kind of lose your grounding and you need that for your sanity. So sanity is wrapped up in this idea of distributed cognition because as Paul Van de Klay is fond of saying, we outsource our sanity. We know that we’re sane by interacting with others. But that begs the question, how do we know insanity? And I would say largely, this is a matter of knowledge that doesn’t match action, right? And that’s mitigated by belief. So when we intelligence what people believe, rightly or wrongly, and one way to do that is to hear them talk about, oh, well, I think that people shouldn’t eat animals because whatever reason, right? And then we see them be cruel to animals. We’re like, hmm, we can make a determination about their level of sanity. And maybe not their overall level of sanity because maybe they’re perfectly competent plumbers, but they’re just bad vegans, right? But that’s part of your determination about their level of sanity. And one sort of standard that we use for sanity is normalcy, right? And so that, again, this is all about the world around us, things outside of us that we’re using to judge sanity. And so we generally use nature as a, quote, objective standard of the normal, right? And of course, nature isn’t stable, consistent, reliable and objective, right? But it can be intersubjective because we’re all embedded in nature, like we were all born at a time and a place, right? And so we all have those similar experiences, as similar as they are with all their differences, right? So when you see a mismatch between an action and a stated belief, right? Or an action that contradicts another action, right? Like, oh, you know, you love this person, you’re very nice to them, and then you hit them, like, ah, right? This is a contradiction, right? And if it’s severe enough, it’s not merely a lie, right? It’s insanity. Like, why would you treat somebody this way? Why would you say that you think people should need animals because it’s cruel and then beat your dog, right? Because people do that, shockingly enough. And we don’t even think about it, right? We’re so embedded in this. We don’t consider that these are the things that we’re judging, we’ll say, unconsciously, right, for sanity. And it’s kind of a big deal, if you ask me. I think it’s a big deal. So that standard of normalcy and that mismatch is how we know sane versus insane, right? And I think what ends up happening is if you have too much interaction with disembodied thoughts, right? Because thinking compresses time. Spending too much time in your heads in a world that we cannot physically participate in causes you to go insane because you’re no longer in sync with participation in nature, in the physical world, in the thing that you were born into, in the thing that you’re embedded in, right? So that can be a big problem because effectively what ends up happening is you just go by your own compass, right? And when you’re disembodied, so you become insane. And we know this. We’ve seen the data from the solitary confinement. If you’re in prison, you’re in solitary confinement long enough, you’ll go insane by any reasonable standard of insanity. And so that’s the problem is that there’s your insanity right there, right? So what that begs the question, what keeps you sane? So the thing, having grounding, historical grounding, ritual grounding, communal grounding, participatory grounding. We need to have a stable, consistent, reliable place to return to or we cannot maintain our sanity. It’s not possible, right? But we also cannot stay there. We can’t stay in the regular, safe, consistent, normal, reliable environment. We have to explore because we have to find the snakes. I didn’t have to go far to find the snake. I just walked in the living room. The thing was right there. But, you know, we still got to find the damn snakes. Now he’s outside. Now every time I go to the shed, I got to look for the damn snake because you have to look for the snakes. They’re out there. So you go back to the grounding, but you don’t stay in the grounding, right? You can’t stay there. You need the gaps. You need the silence. You need the space for exploration. Randomness is required. Entropy is everywhere. We need contrast to see. I’ve talked about this before. We cannot see without contrast. Sight doesn’t function. Our ability to discern is non-existent without contrast. So you can’t just stay in the ritual and the regular in the grounding. But you need that grounding. You can’t do without it. You can’t like knock down all the statues and ignore the history. You can’t just leave home and never come back. You can’t just forego all of the things that made you you. And that’s a problem. That’s a problem. So I think that to some extent you can say sanity is wrapped up in identity, right? Because like identity, we must outsource our sanity. Not all of it, right? Because we cannot see ourselves from the outside the way others can. I just have a perspective on you that you cannot have on yourself, even with a mirror. It’s not an option to you. I can circumambulate you. Your mirror can’t. The multiple perspectives that can be given to you by other people in parallel, like at the same time, is an important part of the advantage of distributed cognition. This is what we use to negotiate identity. It’s what we use to keep our sanity and to sometimes go insane. Like, look, sometimes a little madness, a little carnival, right, is important. Because again, you can’t stay in the regular ritualized same consistent world. That’s also a way of disembodying yourself from reality. Reality has entropy and randomness. Sorry, it just does. Sucks. Don’t like it. But also no choice. So it doesn’t matter. That’s part of the issue, is that we have to outsource these things. The way that we know that we’re sane is we get in touch with other people. Now, the problem is when you have a shared hallucination or fantasy. And look, we have a live stream on hallucination, on fantasy, right? We had one of those. We talked a little bit about that. When we live in our personal imagination, in our personal fantasy, we are essentially alone. You can say, oh, we’re all looking at the same computer screen and playing the same video game or immersed in the same video game with VR or whatever. You’re alone. Your mode of participation is not yours anymore. It is mediated through a bunch of technologies, not one, not two. We label them as one. Like VR is just one technology. It’s not. It’s dozens of technologies. So we’re essentially alone. And what happens is you get reciprocally narrow. You play enough video games. This is where video game addiction comes from. You will reciprocally narrow on the video game. Which wish do you have? You become an expert at the video game. Well, what cost is that expertise coming at? The cost of that expertise is being expert at other things that aren’t video games. We have a limited cognition. We all have limited cognitions. That’s how I know. That’s how I know that you’re a muppet. I’m a muppet. We’re all muppets. We have limitations. And we’re all starting from different points. And we all have different capacities and affordances. That’s both the beauty and the curse of life. Sorry, I didn’t do this. It is what it is. When you live in this world of imagination, of personal fantasy, you create projections in your head from your imagination. And it’s a fantasy. Then you go along with it. And you push that outside. And it seems to you as if other people did something to you. Even though it all happened in your head. And now you feel like your identity, your standard of sanity, everything is being cast unfairly upon you. But it’s not. It’s really a negotiation. It’s always been a negotiation. The standard of sanity is still set by you, by virtue of you being in the world. And the difference is you’re supposed to take the real world into your imagination, cast it into the future to make good predictions about how the world is going to work so that you don’t die. As Jordan Peterson said, right? Your ideas die so you don’t have to. So you have an ideation, an idea. You cast that into a model, a fantasy in your imagination that’s based on the real world, not the other way around. Order matters. Sequence matters. And the real problem with living in your head, and it is a problem, is that you will fill it with noise. You will fill your head with noise. You ever play a video game for like eight hours, three days a week straight, and then you go to bed and you’re dreaming in the video game? That’s you filling your head with noise. I don’t think this is avoidable, by the way, necessarily. But when we only have noise, there’s no space to let others in. That’s part of the intimacy crisis. Great talks on the intimacy crisis. One on Andrew with the Bangs channel. It’s got over a thousand views, by the way. Not bad. One on my channel, Navigating Patterns, right, with Catherine. It’s a wonderful, both are wonderful talks. But there’s also no space for you to grow, for you to expand. And then what happens? You feel trapped. There’s just noise. But you’re trapped by the noise. You’re forced. You’re sort of, it’s squeezing you, right? You feel squished and you’re imposed upon because you can’t move around in the noise. It’s kind of everywhere. It’s filled everything up. So what’s going to happen? We’re going to get angry. We’re going to get resentful. The world is all over us. It’s making us do things. It’s forcing us in our identity. What we need to do is to make space, which is findable through silence. We use the silence so we can find the space to listen. You use silence to discern space. It’s a wonderful insight. Down in G.C., Joe, also ran the conference, set up the conference, starts talking about silence. And this is on Sunday, on the second day. And I was like, Joe, I didn’t hear you talk about silence. The only word he’s using. I’m like, why did you talk about space? Because silence, I realized, is the way you discern space. It’s how you find the boundaries of the space you can expand into. The space to let others in so that you can hear them. The space to commune with people, to be intimate. The space between you and others is the space of intimacy. And if you filled your head with noise, it’s gone. You get a great comfort from that because you can predict the world. Play a video game long enough, you’ll be able to predict it pretty well. Better than you can predict the real world by leaps and bounds. It’s very comforting. Very attractive. Very attractive. It’s a problem. It’s a problem. No wonder why we’re angry and resentful. No wonder why we’re in an intimacy crisis. We have all this noise in our head. And with all the things drawing away our attention, the mirrors we can stare into. That’s not good. No wonder. No wonder. We’re filling our heads with noise. This thing fills my head. Man, it went off today at work. I was like, I’m going to throw you out the window. I was pissed. I’m like, I’m trying to work. I got people to tend to. And there’s all these people notifying me. I’m like, stop freaking notifying me. I’m busy. I’ll get to you later. And you know what these things aren’t good at? They’re not good at queuing things up so that you can organize them and deal with them later. Because they’re trying to get your attention. And I’m always trying to build things to not do that. So that I can organize events later. Oh, this person pinged me about something. I need to get to them later. And we’re terrible at that as humans. We’re terrible at it. So no wonder why we’re going insane. We’ve got these signals coming in. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Just like beaker on a muffin. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. That’s your damn phone. And this is the problem messaging. Even if it’s a good message. I’ve got good emails. I need to read the emails. I need to respond to them. But there’s a flood. There’s too many people telling you things about yourself, about the world, about politics, about other countries’ politics, about how that’s going to affect your country’s politics, about economics and where the economic collapse is coming from, and the next big thing, and which stocks to invest in, and there’s floods of messages. But you can’t integrate them. Because you don’t have enough time, energy, and attention. That is, for anybody not paying attention, tea. Time, energy, and attention is our power. It is the thing that we have. It’s imperfect, and it sucks. And it doesn’t give us the degree of control, even over ourselves, that we’d like to have. But that’s what we need to manage. Otherwise, it will be managed for you. And you will not end up in the place you think you end up in. Think you’re going to save the earth by listening to the climate people? Good luck with that. They’re just stealing your time, energy, and attention so that they have the power. You give it to them without even realizing it. Don’t give it to them. They’re terrible people. The thing is, other people in distributed cognition help you to filter. They help you to filter out these messages, and these signals, and this noise. They help you to discern what is noise and what isn’t noise. Is the indictment of some particular person, political or otherwise, noise or signal? Are you going to lose some good stuff? Yep, you are. Welcome to the imperfect world in which you were born. It’s always been like that, by the way, and it’s never going to change. So, get over it. You’ll lose some good stuff, for sure. But you cannot listen to everything. You can’t sort everything for yourself. Because then you have no space. You have no space for intimacy with yourself, with nature, and with others. It’s gone. The noise crowds you out again, even in your head. I think the big revelation is that’s how meditation works. Although, in the West, we misconstrue meditation as an identification against, rather than, as they do in the East, a discernment of space through the practice of silence. And it’s not just a silence of speech. It’s a silence of mind. If you listen to Vervikis’ meditation series, and I suggest everybody do so, not just because I’m in there a lot, but also because he’s a wonderful teacher. Like, that class is excellent. He talks about the monkey mind. And he’s not the only one. The monkey mind is sort of a popular metaphor for what’s going on. The monkey mind is important. What is the monkey mind? It’s your mind creating noise to fill space. But you need that space to have intimacy. And when you don’t have that space, you can’t have intimacy, and you go insane. And you get nihilistic. And you get into drugs. You commit suicide. You get violent against others. And we know this. You can’t know that. I can look at the numbers. I’m not a big fan of quantity, but you need it. And it’s useful for a bunch of things. Let’s suppose you had some hypothetical fake news virus scamdemic, and you locked everybody in their houses for the better part of three years. What do you think would happen if there were such a thing as an intimacy crisis? People might go insane. They’re not intimate. They’re distancing socially, which is the most insane craziness ever. And I didn’t see it. I learned that on Clubhouse from Greg Ellis. He was in Pirates of the Caribbean. A bunch of them. Maybe all of them. I forget. Great guy. Wonderful human. He would correct people and say, it’s not social distancing. It’s physical distancing. So what would you expect to happen if you shoved all this at people? You might expect suicides to be up 30 percent, the biggest jump ever. You might expect drug addiction to be up about 30 percent, the biggest jump ever. You might expect murders to be up about 30 percent, the biggest jump ever. But murders by strangers to stay about the same, which means all those murders were domestic murders. They’re murders of people you lived with. That happened. People didn’t have space. There was no silence. We were trapped in our heads with fear, uncertainty, tyranny. That’s what happened. And we went insane. I still know people insane. On my vacation, I was in a I was up visiting family and we’re on a beach house on a peninsula with all the windows open. Somebody’s wearing a mask in a house. It’s 2023, kids. Wake up. Some people aren’t waking up. I was in D.C. There were people in stores wearing masks. I’m like, what are you guys doing? You all right? They’re not all right. They’re not all right. And the problem is, and it is a problem, like there’s a serious problem. All the events we do not or did not participate in are effectively a form of fantasy. They’re a type of imagination. They are mental projections. It’s not bad, but it can be a problem in certain ways. If you can’t discern things you participated in or things you participated in the real world from other things that you didn’t participate in. Then it could be a problem. It can be a really big problem. If you weren’t at Thunder Bay, you don’t know what it’s like to participate in Thunder Bay. We can talk about it was a wonderful conference. It wasn’t an academic conference. It was unlike any conference anyone had been to before. Some of those people have been to a lot of conferences for churches, for schools, for the like. For all kinds of things. This was unique. I can’t tell you what made it unique. There’s dozens of things. Most of them are just Catherine. But whatever. A bunch of things made it unique. If you weren’t there, if you didn’t participate, you don’t understand it in that way. I’m not saying you can’t understand that there was a magical event in Thunder Bay, Canada. You can. As an individual alone, you still have to find your mate. That’ll make you go insane. How do you know what you want is sane, is open, is open to you? You can’t find your mate. You can’t find your mate. You can’t find your mate. How do you know what you want is sane, is okay, is acceptable, is going to be something that you’re able to get? Don’t persons who have lived longer maybe know you well, maybe know other people well, have a better idea of what might be right for you? There’s the distributed cognition. It’s not just about being with a bunch of people your same age who had your same experience. It’s also benefiting from the experience of people older and the lack of experience or supreme, innocent ignorance of children, those younger than you. These older people and the younger people might see things that you can’t see. In fact, I guarantee it. They might know much better than you do what’s better for you or what’s best for you. They might. Is it going to be perfect? No, we don’t live in a perfect world. You’re not perfect. Why are you worried about other people’s perfection? Make yourself perfect first, then worry about their perfection. How’s that? Deal? Deal. Some people see patterns better than others. And they see how things match and mesh in a way that you can’t. Maybe you’ll never have that skill. You don’t need it. That’s the beauty of distributed cognition. I don’t need to be a plumber. I can talk to a plumber. I don’t need to be an electrician. I can talk to one. I don’t need the participatory experience of building a house. I can talk to somebody who has that. I can have them do the work instead of me. Different people have different types of knowledge, different types of participation, different types of understanding of the world. That you don’t have. They have different types of wisdom. And we hint a lot about wisdom here on Navigating Patterns, but we rarely dive in and for good reasons. We’re still working on the wisdom thing. Wisdom.com and .org website is coming along. Feel free to visit. We’re going to be improving it soon. We’re trying to get together a definition of wisdom or a set of definitions of wisdom. And that’s why I want to talk about the lie of self-awareness. It’s that your awareness of yourself is always incomplete in a way that you cannot know or even understand on your own. They don’t tell you that to let go of your self-aware. You are kind of self-aware of a tiny fraction of your muppet self. That’s not sufficient for anything. And it’s not a profound statement. It’s more like a, oh, really? I know that I’m a person and I know that I’m awake and when I’m asleep sometimes and only sometimes. Thanks, Captain Obvious. Really glad you told me that one. I’m glad you told me that one. I’m glad you told me that one. Thanks, Captain Obvious. Really glad you told me that one. It feels like sanity. Oh, I’m self-aware. I have a level of self-awareness. I can level up on my self-awareness. Yeah, using others. You can’t level up on your self-awareness by yourself because you’re trapped in a box and you don’t even know there’s a box. Just thinking outside the box only goes so far. If the box is you, you ain’t thinking outside of it, bud. Not gonna happen. They tell you you can, they’re full of shit. That’s simple. They’re wrong. They’re lying to you because they want to believe it for themselves. They don’t care about you. They’re trying to convince themselves. Don’t believe them. And we know this. We know we’re self-aware. We know we’re awake. We know we’re conscious. We know when we’re not conscious. Most of the time. But not all the time. And there are obviously places you cannot go alone. How does self-awareness help you then? Oh, I’m self-aware that I can’t go here. That’s helpful. No. There are places you should not go alone. Self-awareness gonna help you with that? No. And you know that you can get to places with others you could never get to alone. That is what sanity is. A place you cannot be in, get to, or survive in alone. You can’t do it alone. It’s impossible. Bad news. Good news. You don’t need to. It’s harder to navigate without other people. They help to give us perspective on where we are, where they are, where we are relative to where they are, and where we could go, and why. Why should we go to work? Why shouldn’t we just stay home and collect fake news, virus, scandemic checks forever? Why should we go to the gym? Why should we do Tai Chi in the park? These are good questions. We need other people to tell us. How do we know where we are? Why should we go to the gym? Why should we do Tai Chi in the park? And why shouldn’t we? Sometimes we shouldn’t do stuff. Should I go off and become a mariner and be away for three months at a time? And travel the world? It’s not such a glamorous life. You spend most of it on the ship in the middle of the ocean getting sick. We know we need that space for that intimacy that helps us to navigate with other people. We need their compasses. We need their compasses. We need the orienteering compass. So we can orient our way to where we need to be. That’s north, by the way. Right over there. It’s not optional. It’s not like, eh, I’ll be fine without others. No, you won’t. And we can go into this, you know, Heideggerian technological critique. Technology destroys the quality of our relationship to the world. It reduces it and makes us insane. Because we detach from the world. From participation in the world. And we do this at the expense of other people. What do you think technology is? Where do you think it comes from? Did you do the technology? I didn’t do any of this technology. I’m not saying I can’t write something better than StreamYard. I most certainly could. It wouldn’t even be difficult for me. I’m not gonna. That’s insane. Reinventing wheels. Gotta be careful with that stuff. Sometimes you need to reinvent the wheel. But almost never. Sucks. It’s a terrible discernment. All technology really allows you to do is steal the past work of others to be on your own. More autonomous. And often above other people. I’m doing a live stream. I’m above all the people that aren’t doing a live stream in some sense. I’m above all the watchers. All you’re doing is watching. Ha ha ha ha ha. To some extent, how did I do it? I didn’t build this microphone. I didn’t build this laptop. I’m not even running Linux on this laptop. I’m running frickin’ Windows 11, much to my dismay. I didn’t write the browser. I could write a browser. Seems pointless though. This technology was built by other people’s efforts. In some sense, whether they realized that they were doing something in some sense, whether they realized it or not, no matter how well paid you may believe them to have been, and most of them weren’t that well paid, they are enslaved by my use of their technology. Which they are no longer benefiting from. Maybe they got paid for a year or two or three or five to write the code, to build the microphone, the laptop, to write Windows, but I’m the one benefiting now. I’m still using it. Yeah, wonderful technology. It makes slaves out of all of us. And look, we can extend our sense of self when we interact with the world through technology. But how far does it really extend? How many people am I really talking to? How many people are really listening? How many people that are really listening really hear what I’m saying? How many of those people really understand everything that I’m saying? The answer is we need others so that we can have perspective on where we end and others begin. I don’t do this alone at all. I have three different sessions on the notes just for this one livestream. All of my videos are the culmination of the work of several, several people. And I need it that way. I won’t do these without feedback. Sometimes I don’t get direct feedback before I go live, but there are issues that we’ve dealt with that I’ve had feedback on. And I recognize that, and I try to tell you guys, I’m not doing this alone. I can’t. Not even close to capable. I don’t think anyone else is either, by the way. I need to interact with others to know how well my videos are being received, how well the livestreams are going, how good these models are going, how well the livestreams are going, how good these monologues are. I need to hear from them what they heard. So I was up north, I was staying with my friend, and she asked me, and this is not the first, second, or third time, this question has come up. I had just gotten there. It’s a two-day trip. Usually I do it in two days, stop in the middle, drive about eight hours, stop, drive about seventy more hours. Are you hungry? I’m usually hungry because, as I’ve told this person many times, I don’t eat when I travel because I’m a little afraid of getting sick. So in general, if I think I’m going to drive that day for five, six, seven hours, I won’t eat. Just in case I get sick, it interferes with the travel. It can throw me off by a day or two. It’s not worth it. And then she asked again, oh, so you didn’t eat today? And I said, no, no, I didn’t eat today. She said, did you eat yesterday? She knew I was on the road for two days. Clearly there’s a not listening going on here. And this isn’t the first time we’ve had the conversation. Good feedback to have. People just don’t listen. And part of that comes from interacting with technology. Part of that comes from not paying attention to where our projection of what the other person does or doesn’t do begins and ends. Is that person really mean or do we just think they’re mean? Did our parents really yell at us? Maybe they didn’t yell at all. I was just all in our heads. That happens. Maybe somebody said, hey, you know, you never have to worry about having a Twitter account because we’ll take care of it. And you went made a Twitter account anyway. How much of what I’ve said is true. How much of what our technology allows us to do is us. Should it be integrated? How much of it should be integrated? How much technology corrupts the good within us? The quality that is goodness, trueness, beauty. Do we know? Does wearing makeup make women more beautiful? Sometimes. Too much? Not so much. They become more mechanical. Less human. More utilitarian. Less themselves. Less true. Less good. Less beautiful. And it’s a fine line. But makeup’s a technology. I’m not here to denigrate technology. That’s not the problem. The problem is not technology. There is not the problem of technology. This is a stupid thing to say. It’s hard to imagine. I cannot. I cannot even go there. Like, your dumbness has dumbness at some point. You just have to have the proper place for the technologies that you need. Because you’re not getting along in the world without technology. It’s not happening. And you don’t have to. You just have to know the proper place. You need other people to tell you. When you’re on your phone too much. When you spend too much time video gaming. So we sometimes see technology as a way to extend our agency. But really, this is insane. Technology requires the other people to be slaves. To come up with the idea. To build it. To spread it. That’s marketing, guys. And making it in quantity for others to use. That’s all distributed cognition. And it’s being used to make it more accessible. And it’s being used to make it more accessible. And it’s being used on technology. Can it be put to other uses? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it shouldn’t be. But if you don’t realize that. If you don’t know that. If you don’t acknowledge that. If you don’t see the slavery in the technology because you’re using it. Or is it using you? Do people have ideas? Or do ideas? Do ideas have people? Where is the sanity in that? How much technology is good versus when it becomes bad? It’s not good versus bad. It’s goodness. How do we get the most goodness out of it? That’s a very different equation. This is not a binary thinking channel. This is not a video on binary thinking. Don’t do that. We don’t live in a binary world. That’s what we need the distributed cognition for. That’s what we need other perspectives. Other people to help us work out. We can’t work it out by ourselves. We can’t even see it by ourselves. We’re these tiny things. And technology was built by people. Lots of people. Over time in many cases. No chance. I’ve talked about this before, but there’s a great article I read years and years ago about how no one person can build a computer mouse anymore. There’s too many specialized parts that go into it. Now it’s a beautiful thing and they’re 10 bucks. Amazing. But it takes the distributed cognition of several people to build a computer mouse that’s 10 bucks. If you built one yourself, maybe you could. I doubt it wouldn’t be as good and it wouldn’t cost 10 bucks. And we fall into this problem. Our own perspective is necessarily as it should be, narrowing. Reciprocally. Are you a slave to technology or is it a slave to you? Because it goes back and forth. Notice that you can be a techno slave to different ways as a manifesto of technology in the machine, building machines. Oh, I’m a programmer. Yeah, you’re a slave. Or as a user. Yes, master. Two different ways. You can say, oh, I’m not a slave to technology. You can say, oh, I’m not a slave. You ever watch The Matrix? Did you ever notice that the machines control the outside world and the simulation world? No, you didn’t notice that, did you? Unless you’ve watched my live streams before and I’ve mentioned it. Oops. Oops. You don’t get free of The Matrix, you idiot. Doesn’t happen in those movies. Watch it again. There’s a negotiation. That’s the skill. And addiction comes to mind here. You’re thinking you’re the master, but really you’re the addict. Do you do cocaine or does it do you? Does it heat up your time, energy and attention? How about the video game? How about the porn? How about the smoking? Does it throw you into a quantitative relationship with the world where you need more and more and more? That’s what drug addiction is. Oh, one line here. What addiction is? Oh, one line got me off. Now I need two lines. A year goes by, you need four lines. Oh, but we understand that. It’s just, you know, it’s just resistance. Oh, it’s resistance. How interesting. What an interesting word. You grow resistant to the amount of cocaine or heroin or video games or porn. And then you need more. You’re in that quantitative relationship because you need more quantity. That’s what addiction is. It’s destroying you from within. What about all the time on Facebook? How about Pinterest, Instagram, Twitter or X, whatever it’s called this week? Who’s ruling whom? What about other people? What about the climate people? What about businesses? What about products? Products. Although I do like my Samsung phones. I don’t think I’m in the cult of Samsung, but oh well, maybe. It’s all good. I like Samsung. Again, there’s a balance. But it’s not really a balance, right? I don’t like balance. Balance is, oh, balance is binary. It’s a trade-off. It’s a set of trade-offs. There are many, in fact, many trade-offs. Sanity is not a balance. Sanity is a proper relationship, a right relationship to the trade-offs you are making in your life through your participation. What are we participating with, Mark? The three frames. I have a video on the three frames. You with yourself. You with nature. You with others. There’s three frames of right participation or maybe three aspects of right participation. That’s where the sanity lies. Making the trade-offs between all three. Making the trade-offs between what is true, what is beautiful, and what is good. So the question is, how can we make the trade-offs between the three frames of right participation and the three aspects of right participation? What can we be saying when we don’t know proper embodiment? How does technology impact this? These are the questions to ponder. This other distraction bullshit about the Blue Church, about economic collapse, about the latest election, about the election in other countries and how they’re going to… No. What is the proper embodiment of the truth, the good, and the beautiful? What is the proper trade-off or set of trade-offs for your relationship, your intimate relationship with yourself, your intimate relationship with nature, and your intimate relationship with others? I’m not here to give you answers. That is not what this is about. I say it all the time. I don’t say it enough. You can’t say it enough. This is not about answers. This is about pointing your time, energy, and attention at the right freaking questions. That’s what proper meditation does. Western meditation, we just go to disembodied ourselves so that we can have control over ourselves. That’s bullshit. That’s solipsistic garbage. It’s the same stuff Socrates was like sneering at in the Republic. Same stuff. The Easterners understood meditation is finding a proper relationship with space through silence. Silence of the voice, silence of the mind or the thoughts within your mind, finding that filter to crowd out the noise that’s crowding out the space. Hopefully, you have plenty of distributed cognition to help you discern your proper embodiment. Am I getting out of the house enough? I mean, I’m not. And am I participating correctly at conferences? I think I knocked this one out of the park, by the way, but you know, people will tell me. I thought Banduclade was going to have a heart attack when I told them I was going to have lunch with Nate Heil on Sunday after the conference. What do I tell people? I’ll sit there and have a conversation, go have a meal. I did that. It was awesome. Nate Heil claimed it was leftovers. If those are Nate Heil’s leftovers, I am unworthy a meal cooked by Nate Heil. I’m not going to be able to eat that. I’m going to be able to eat that. If those are Nate Heil’s leftovers, I am unworthy a meal cooked by Nate Heil. I can tell you that. Those are some good food. Those are the best leftovers I’ve ever had. We got along great. It was fine. There was no argument. Didn’t happen. Didn’t happen. What do you learn? How do you learn it? I go to the DC conference. What do I learn? Oh, we open with a song. How interesting. There’s a form of verbal communication that we do in communion that isn’t a form of conversation at all. You think conversation is going to save the world? No, my friend. Singing together, sharing meals together, learning poetry together. I did all that. That’s what’s going to save the world. Everything else is going to make everything worse. How do I know that? Because we’ve had more of everything else and less of those things. Go fishing. In silence. You don’t need to have conversation. Shut the hell up. Be in a space in silence with other people. You’ll find the intimacy. It’s right there. You’re just crowding it out with noise. Like a Muppet. And yeah, distributed cognition means dealing with people who are obviously dumber than you about a whole host of things. They don’t understand a whole host of things. But they see you that same way, Muppet. Ponder that. You want self-transcendence? You want enlightenment? First, you must recognize how you are insane. And that you aren’t all that you could be. Jordan Peterson talks about this. You aren’t all that you could be. You aren’t all that you could be opens a space for you to be more than you are now. You’re no longer stuck. Why are you stuck? Because the noise is crowding your brain. Full of bullshit. That’s why meditation works pretty well. At the start for a bunch of people. But it just doesn’t do the work. Especially not the Western idea of meditation. You need that space to improve. You need to know it’s possible. You make that space with silence. Without the humility to realize you could be better. You can’t get better. What’s in that space? Humility. Oh, there’s space. My world is not filled by the noise of my head. There’s space. And I can have reverence for that space. That’s humility. That’s where you get humility. Where you’re going to find humility. It’s in that space. That’s where it is. Where am I going to find intimacy? Where am I going to be intimate? With myself, with nature, with others. Where’s it going to happen? In the space. The space is there. You need to discern the space. You need the silence. That’s what you need. The silence helps you discern the space. The space is the thing that opens up. So that you can meet other things there that are outside of yourself. The space helps you determine your boundary. Oh, here’s me. Here’s a boundary. Here’s space. And there’s noise. There’s other people. They’re coming out of the noise. They’re making some relationship with me. Well, there’s nature. Nature isn’t all noise. It’s having a relationship with me. It might be a snake in my house. It’s having a relationship with me. Oh, there’s my trauma. There’s my fear. There’s my hopes and dreams. I’m not there yet. Or I’m not there anymore. Oh. I don’t have to be trapped by my trauma. I don’t have to be constrained by the fact that my hopes and dreams haven’t already come true. I have space. I’m not all I could be, but there’s space for me to be more. There’s space for me to be smaller than the world. And if I’m smaller than the world, then I know that I’m ignorant. And if I know that I’m ignorant, then I can be humble. That’s amazing. It’s a superpower. It’s a frickin’ miracle. Otherwise, you’re screwed. I hear people talk this way all the time. I was listening to somebody say this today. Today. A few hours ago. Oh, I can’t get a customer service job. Because you have to have customer service experience, get a job. No, you don’t. Never in the history of the universe has that ever happened. It’s an entry-level job, literally. They will train you. It doesn’t take that long. Usually they have a script. Read the script. Get on the phone. Read the script. Yeah, maybe their training sucks. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. But you’ve got to apply. Imagine living in a world, and a lot of people think the world works, and I do mean a lot, think the world works this way, where you have to have experience. How does that work? How could that ever have happened? It couldn’t have. It’s foolishness. Well, no, you need a degree. I never had a degree in anything ever. I had plenty of jobs. It wasn’t a big deal. And I was waking way more than the people with degrees, I’ll tell you that much. They were getting screwed. And they had college loans. And I didn’t. I’m on my second house. I’m on my second house. I’m on my second house. And I got two houses stolen from me. So there you go. Sanity requires many perspectives, many angles, to be able to orient yourself. Orient yourself with your orienteering compass in the world. That’s what sanity is. It’s your ability to orient yourself in a way where you’re able to have right participation with yourself, with nature, and with others. You need that form of circumambulation in real time without you moving, without having to rely on yourself, on your limited time, energy, and attention. That is the advantage of distributed cognition. I don’t have to go anywhere. Sally, what do you think of this thumbnail? I think you screwed up the colors, Mark. I don’t have to try and figure it out myself. I can just ask the damn artist. I can ask other people. What do you think of this thumbnail? I don’t know. It’s not quite right. They can’t tell me how to fix it, maybe. But they can tell me it’s off. Now I know I need more help. This is a wonderful thing. Are they annoying people? All the time. You’re all annoying. You’re all Muppets. You think I like Muppets? Muppets are annoying. The problem is I’m a Muppet to you. We’re all Muppets. It’s all about the trade-offs. It’s all about the trade-offs. Because it’s all we got. All right. End of monologue because it’s time to drink tea. Oh my goodness. And we’ll catch up on this stuff. And also, anybody who wants to join, you can join the free event. It’s free. It’s free. If anybody wants to join. Sally discorded me. Muppet count, it’s too damn high. Yeah, Sally. The Muppet count is always too damn high. I can confirm. So yeah, we’ll let in the select few elite class, whoever they happen to be. Sup, Robert? William’s listening. That’s good. Cyberspace is a fantasy world. That’s what cyberspace is. Is cyberspace itself a non-world? It is disembodied. It’s a fantasy world. Moses had a pet snake. Yeah, William, there was a lot of discussion about the snake. Believe me. Cyberspace is liminal. The boundary between imminence and transcendence. Maybe. I don’t know about that. William, chaos exists between existence and non-existence, between order and disorder. I don’t know about that. Between life and death, between consciousness and unconsciousness. Oh, I don’t know the line between unconsciousness and consciousness, my friend. This is why the subconscious, the creative people, is so radioactive. It certainly can be. Based routine behavior holds individuals and societies together. Well, look, it’s the thing you go back to. But you get out in the world, things get noisy, they get kind of crazy, right? And then you need someplace to rest. It’s almost like you work for like, I don’t know, six days, and on the seventh you need to rest up. Something like that. Robert, imagination and fantasy are two sides of the same coin. No, imagination is required to have fantasy. They’re not coins. They’re not coins. It’s not a binary. We don’t like coins here. William Branch, like fire, imagination is double edged. Oh, yeah. Well, that’s true. That’s totally true. Look at all these people that want to come and join me. Elite. The elite are coming. Or at least so they say. We’ll see if they ever make it. Discernment is a tough one. No, discernment is everything. In case you haven’t caught on to the stream, discernment and discernment of what? Those, that’s where it all is. William, discernment develops as you mature, but that takes effort. Yep. Yep. William, throw poo, not nukes. I don’t know about that. I kind of like nukes. Benjamin Franklin, I think it’s impossible to be completely alone. No. The concept of aloneness seems to be related to the concept of uniqueness. No, to some extent. We are not products. I don’t know what you’re talking about. No, we’re not products. No, we’re not products. No, we’re not products of DNA. No, that’s not products. That’s not how products work. Oh, gender is possible because without gender nothing exists. No, you don’t understand gender at all. Gender is reality. Robert, so where does this fellowship occur? Churches? I can. I mean, that’s one place. It can occur all over the place. I mean, you can go to conferences in Washington, D.C. or Thunder Bay or maybe Chino. Look, you can have fellowship with your neighbors. One of my neighbors who doesn’t even live here, but his mother does, honked at me today. He’s like, you know, got to say hi to people, right? Fellowships all around you. You just have to go seek it out. Traditional methods are suspect. He says, look, some things have betrayed us. Courtney joined late. Minute 2350. I have no idea what I was saying at that. You feel this 100% never. Oh, well, I’m glad. Clear explanation to a female, no less. I feel like I’m leveling up then. You see women don’t understand what I’m saying at all. This is fantastic news, Courtney. William, where the wise meet is a spontaneous church where two or more gathered in my name. Yeah. But in my lifetime, the curtain churches. Yeah, it sure has. Robert upon this rock indeed. Yes, William, Rocky Four. Exactly. That is correct. That is a trick walk. Rock. That movie came out the year I met my wife and she brought me into Christianity. That’s hysterical. That is hysterical. William monologues part of lumberjack contests. Thank you. I will take it. Elizabeth. And we don’t live in a binary world. No, Elizabeth, we don’t. It was lovely seeing you, by the way, at DC. That was such an unexpected and beautiful surprise. And I hope Justine’s watching. That would be lovely, too. What a relief. Yeah, it is a relief. Can you imagine living in this binary? People are nihilistic. I wonder why you’re living in this binary. People are nihilistic. I wonder why you live in a binary world. Yeah, that would make me nihilistic, too. Holy crap. I think I’d go straight to jumping off a bridge, personally. Slavery in the Covenant is true freedom. Maybe. Ex marks the Elon. Yes. Yes, William, it does. William claims Mark doesn’t like the teeter totter. He wants the multi totter. I want the toddler. How’s that? William, I’m old of infirm body. I know the value of daily embodiment. I bet. I bet. William, occasionally, senyatta has been helpful therapy. Yeah, look, there’s a lot in the East that’s very helpful. Here’s Andre. I’m going to finish the comments, Andre, but come on in. I just want to finish reading these. William, you are ready to leave the monastery mark. The monastery was beautiful in D.C. The Franciscan monastery was quite a lovely, lovely set of grounds. Regular times and places for liminal activity enhances. Yes, it does. In Tibet, vultures eat the dead flesh off your bones. You’re bird food. Yes, you are. Elizabeth, Leo Pardes poem, The Infinite, describes unending spaces and ineffable silences and deep quiet, somehow as space enlarges time shrinks and the eternal monument is there. I like that. I like that. Yes. Maybe the eternal monument is outside of things. Yeah, maybe. Or at least outside of the things that constrain us. 90 year old ladies do customer service. Yes, they do. Mills, good job with the monologue. Thank you. I need that feedback. Benjamin missed the end of the monologue. Well, you can go back and listen to it, dude. It’s still there. You can double speed it. Participation is entirely different and clarifying experience. Yes, indeed it is. Yes, indeed it is. Andre, how are you doing? It’s good to see you, my friend. Good. Is my microphone loud enough or do I need to? Spot on, sir. Spot on. Even for Australia, it’s good. I’m using OBS, as you can see. So I’ve got the little Muppet icon. Excellent. I love it. In the corner of the screen. I love the Muppet icon. That’s fantastic. Maybe we’ll adopt that. Someone’s telling me good monologue. I got Discord on for some reason. Well, that’s how I got the Streamlabs link. Because I think you missed my comment asking for it. Lynn’s also asking for it. We’ll get her in here in a minute. I want to get Jessie in here first and then we’ll get everybody else in. Don’t drop the beaker. Yeah, it’s full of caustic chemicals, indeed. Where is it, Lynn? I have Lynn in here somewhere. I don’t want to open it. I don’t want to open it. I don’t want to open it. Where is it, Lynn? I have Lynn in here somewhere. I don’t want to overwhelm her with a Discord link. Because that might… Lynn’s not the most technologically astute of our membership club here. Not that I blame her. I’ve got Discord open and I’m like regretting it all day long now. I’m like, why did I open this while my stream was going? That happened on the last stream when I joined. I sent you like four or five messages in a row and I heard the, Buh-Buh, Buh-Buh, Buh-Buh. And I was like, oh no, it’s coming through on the stream. Uh-oh, Lynn’s all upset. Come on, Lynn. We know you struggle with Discord. It’s okay. I struggle with Discord too. Everybody wants Discord link. Where the hell is Jesse? He’s supposed to be here. What is wrong with this guy? He just DM’d me like 10 minutes ago or so. So I know he’s around. No, no, he said he was around. I sent him the link already. Benjamin Franklin is pro muppetology as long as we recognize the famous wise ones of old are also muppets. I just, yeah, I mean, I can understand. Aristotle was a muppet. Plato was not a muppet. Plato was a double muppet. He’s like the wise muppet of muppetry. I saw a great meme. It was basically saying we shouldn’t revere Plato and, and, and Aristotle and those guys, they just got to something obvious. And it was like, yes, also true because they were born before us. Also true. They weren’t that smart. It’s really easy. I agree. It’s really easy. You can get on your own by yourself. You can say that about Isaac Newton. He just dropped balls and went both this one falls. And he was just the first person to do that. He was the first person to do that. And he was just the first person to do that. It didn’t really take rocket science. Right. Well, and it’s not even the first person to do it. It’s first person to write it down. Whose writings we have. Right. Because it’s like trigonometry. Every time they look in history, they find out different people had trigonometry and they’re all like, oh, we’ve lost trigonometry like four times. It’s like, yep, we sure have. There he is. Jesse. Hello. Hello. Hello. I am jealous of this Muppet icon and I need you to school me on how to make this happen. Because I want to make this happen. You just need OBS and you do an image overlay. I need to try to use the programs clunky. OBS is beautiful. Hold on. Let me just address this. Alex, I like Ben Boyce’s interview with Isaac Simpson. You should probably look at that. All right. Well, maybe. I don’t know. If you’re on Discord, put a link in the Mark of Wisdom Discord server for me. I may hunt it down. I am so far behind on videos right now. I’m busy appearing in videos on VanderKla’s channel. I don’t have time to watch other people’s videos. Yeah. And traveling around the country. I can’t do videos in the car because I like to take notes. And if you want a superpower that keeps you sane, take notes. One of the things I meant to mention and didn’t make it into the notes. But now I’ve remembered it. Thanks, Brain. You’re really useful today. That damn snake scared the shit out of me. That was the problem. I don’t know how I got out of the back room. I had him locked in the back room. I was like, we can’t get out there. Apparently, you did. Either that or you can get out and back in the house in different places. I don’t know what’s going on. We’ll find out. But the snake scared me. So I forgot. Writing things down. Forcing yourself to write things down. Forcing yourself to articulate them so that you or somebody else could read them later potentially. Clarifies your thoughts and keeps you sane. And so taking notes is a superpower. Even if you never read the notes, the act of taking notes. Excellent. Guess what I did for the first time for this stream. Well done, sir. I am honored that you did that. Does anybody else have their Sam Pell and their Crunch and Munch and Jordan Ammons? Tea? Anybody? I’ve got cold coffee. I’ve got warm coffee. On the side of my beautiful He-Man mug. Cold and warm coffee? I don’t know about that. The cold coffee is just European. It’s the style. So what did you think, Jesse? What did you think of the monologue? Good. I’ve got a transcription which I need to go over. You said a lot in an hour. So you said a lot. Oh, I know. Well, look, people like Danny wanted me to tie more things together. I’m like, oh, you want me to? You sure? I can do that. I don’t think that’s what you want, but we’ll try and see how it works. Because yeah, now we’re getting to the depth. It’s like I could always do that. The problem is when I do that, people don’t get it. Oh, Anselman is here. Excellent. I’m so glad Anselman is here. Anselman says, Hermit of Prague was a Muppet. Hasty’s Muppet. Yes. Yes. I concur. It’s Muppets all the way down or all the way out or all the way up or something. Cool. All the way up. Yeah. Well, and there’s an insanity, right? So if you listen to Verbecky, which, boy, you shouldn’t do anymore. Holy macaroni. Him and the two Orthodox priests, I couldn’t even, I not even threw a part two of that talk on emanation and emergence where they don’t discuss emanation at all ever. Man, he’s got those guys enchanted. And it’s like you guys are enchanted. You should be pushing back on all of this stuff. It’s bad, bad theology. It’s bad philosophy. It’s bad everything. It’s just bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anselman. Hence and misheard is Kermit the Frog. Yes, indeed. Kermit the Frog here. That’s pretty good. It’s a pretty good impression. I sometimes it works. Have you been practicing that for the last couple of weeks? No. No, no. But Andre nicely posted this comedian doing Jordan Peterson. And as we know, Jordan Peterson and Kermit the Frog are actually the same person. And so it’s in my brain. And sometimes when it’s in my brain, I can just kind of pull it off. Right. This is the first time we’ve drawn that correlation between the Muppet thing and Peterson. So it’s taken what? A couple of months for us to be like, it’s the obvious thing. Adam can’t join us. Frickin California. Look at that. You put the Irishman in California and doomed. Oh, that reminds me. There’s going to be a missing live stream for sure. I’m going to go to California and visit my Irish friend. When’s that? Someone else wants the link. On the 18th. Yeah, that’s good. I was going to talk to Karen Wong on that. Oh, good. Do that on Friday so that we can open this up. Friday. I can’t remember the time. Anybody who wants to join is welcome to do. We’ve been running the secret Discord Join Club. I got my feedback as much as I could anyway. Yeah, I wanted if we can, I wanted to go through that. That’s school of life video on that. I sent you Mark with the cute little animations about the insane, the insane, sane or the sane madness. I stayed up last night and that seven year old video by the Brit. Yeah, we French. Holy mackerel. Dude, I watched that and I’m like, this is seven years. What is what is wrong with these people? Like, I mean, like what? What is wrong with these people? Like, where did you get this framing from? This is observably ridiculous. Lynn. You get to unmute yourself, Lynn. You get to be in the chat. You get to unmute yourself, Lynn. You get to be in the chat. Hey, you’re really getting about known technology now. There you go. I was looking in Discord for the link and I couldn’t find it. So why didn’t send it to you? Because I didn’t think you were on Discord while you were watching my stream, but I would have sent it to you earlier. Now you have it. You can join now. Hello. Hello. Good to see you. Where in America are you from again, Lynn? I’m from Idaho. What is that? It’s in the Pacific Northwest. Well, it’s kind of in the Midwest. Depends on what side you’re on, right? I mean, Pacific Northwest. By Washington State. Is that the one that’s a square? I’m two hours, three hours from Seattle now. So I’m near Seattle. You know where Seattle is. You’ve heard of Seattle, right? Seattle, Washington. That’s right. Washington? Washington, yes. Ethan, California evil confirmed. What? Am I going to come see you in Nevada? I don’t know, man. I’ve only got a weekend, but I’m planning on getting a convertible. But we’ll see if we can shuttle our Irish friend over there. It’s Nevada. Nevada. Nevada? Nevada. Nevada. That’s Nevada. Nevada, the Mad Hatter. There you go. That’s it. Okay. Is that Mr. Hanky Poo? What is that? That’s a weird hat. It’s my sorting hat. Wait a second. Where’s his face? There you go. That looks very Japanese. You had it. Very quiet. Sanity. Anselman, I knew some nice LDS from Idaho. Yes, they’re up there. They’re up there. There’s a Mormon, it’s not a church. A temple is going to be opening up. The temple is opening up here in Moses Lake. And so there’s an open house. So I’m going to be going to the temple to do an open house. It’s the only time where they allow non-Mormons to tour their temple is before it’s… Consecrated. Consecrated, right. So this weekend we’re going to go probably tomorrow and tour the Mormon temple here in Moses Lake. So I’m excited about that. Moses Lake, Ethan. Why don’t you know where Lynn is? Everybody knows where Lynn is. Oh yeah, Moses Lake. Anselman, that looks like a very eatable hat. Watch out. If Anselman ever makes it over from Scotland, hide your hat. He’ll deep fry it. I hope not. What did you think, Lynn? Did you like the monologue? I felt preached at. So I’m sorry. Well convert then. What? Convert to the Church of Muppet. That’s fine. Okay, well… There’s a lot… COVID… I’m sorry, you’re talking about the fake news virus scandemic? It really messed people up. And there’s a lot of isolated people. And so I have serious concerns about the isolation and what happened. And so when it comes to sanity, that’s my concern for the populace. But that’s a macro level. But then you said something about isolation. Maybe it was Benjamin Franklin, the dude, said something about isolation. Be careful with sanity in that one because there’s not much there. Well, because there’s a type of isolation that… It’s suicidal ideation, that type of stuff, mental health stuff. Yeah, that’s the problem. Yeah, that’s the issue. See, this is Benjamin Franklin. He’s good here because it’s good contrast for sanity. It’s the sorting hat from Harry Potter. It sorts her as a woman. What version of Harry Potter did happen in your head, sir? It sorts women and men into houses. There are four of them, by the way. Yeah, I don’t know. Anselman, I’ll eat my hat. No, your hat. I’ll sing. I like it. William, convert from the devil’s metric to the Hollywood imperial measure. I think… Anselman, planned emic scam. Yes. On topic. I was crazy all 2020. Yeah, I think a lot of people were. I mean, a lot of people were completely insane because they were busy socially distancing. Anselman, they knew what they were doing in their compliance experiment. There was a lot more going on. The problem is, the thing to be grateful for is they didn’t know what they were doing and their theories were wrong. And so it didn’t work. The thing they wanted to happen didn’t happen. Let’s all be grateful. Let’s all be grateful. Let’s all be grateful. They failed. Thank goodness. It caused a lot of damage. They should all be hung, for sure. But they failed. They did not control us in the way that they needed to to do the evil they needed to do. So who’s they? The Abrogores? The Abrogores? The spirits? The Elites? The Elites? No, I mean, there isn’t a single group, right? Because people at all levels are participating. And so to take something where people at all levels are participating and put them in the group doesn’t make any sense. That is where we’re moved by the spirit. The spirit is the thing that moves us in a fractal manner across the layers of analysis, as Peterson would call them. Right? It’s distributed able. It’s like distributed cognition happening in different layers. Right. Well, that’s part of distributed cognition is the distributed cognition at all the layers. Anselman, yay. Thank you. Good. Let’s be happy. Alex, how much failure? Yeah, well, it depends how you measure failure. But a hell of a lot because nobody anticipated the way the supply chain disruption would manifest. Right. They thought they were going to get bread lines. That didn’t happen. Right. Nobody figured out how many people would just say, nah, not doing it, bro. Nobody figured out how many people were just going to point at the Constitution and say, we’re not enforcing this. Tell that branch of the government to go to hell. Right. Nobody anticipated that the cities would be way more compliant and the country people were like, yeah, the city people are nuts again. This happens every few years. Oh, well. Nobody anticipated that. They just didn’t. Those people have really simple models of the world where they think, oh, it’s top down power from above. If the president puts in a mask mandate, everybody will wear a mask. Nah, bro. That ain’t happening. Right. And that’s the problem. Yeah. Anselman, I know people who complied and suffer for it. Like I said, Sunday, a week ago Sunday, or actually Sunday also, I was in a house with Pete Percival. With Pete Percival with a mask. They’re being compliant to something that’s gone. It’s a religion now. It’s a religion, right? I mean, just like the Muslim women who were the… If you believe that you do not have a religion, one will be provided to you without your knowledge or consent. Yeah. Well, it’s like super compliance. It’s going above and beyond. Yeah. Well, but that’s what happens. So there’s no way to determine proper compliance when you’re insane. That’s how you know it’s insane. People at all layers of the hierarchy have a mismatch with the facts on the ground. It’s like, all right, well, then they’re insane. They think that these things are working this way when they’re not working this way or when they’re having the opposite of the intended effect. As you know, I live in Melbourne, so we had the worst of the lockdowns. We had the proper Gulag. We had curfews for 10 p.m. Like we’re little kids. You are little kids. It’s Australia. Someone on Discord dogged me because I was live streaming from my phone and it was 10.04 p.m. He goes, I’m going to call the cops on you if you don’t get home soon. I’m like, dude, really, what? Like, you know how fascistic that is? Yeah. Coming from Ireland, which kind of was pretty strict as things go, it was weird. People were, the police were searching old ladies’ bags for making sure that they were only making essential purchases. Wow. Yeah. Crazy. Wow. There’s Elizabeth. Elizabeth, it’s been days since I’ve seen you. How are you, my dear? That was so fun. Everybody’s got to go to the next conference. It doesn’t matter where you live. Just get on a plane and come. That’s true. Right? I’m saving. I’m saving money. So I have to, I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. I have to go. So I have to, I have to save enough money to go. And then I have to figure out when the next conference is and where at. But it’s going to take probably a good year, maybe two. A year? Oh, come on, Lynn. We can get you out there cheaper than that. Well, okay. Australia doesn’t cost that much. All you guys to come here to Australia, it doesn’t cost that much. It’s only a 23 hour flight. Yeah. I think 10,000. I think when I looked it up. Okay. Well, then it’ll take five years probably for me to say if I’m going to Australia. Just take a boat. That’s what we did. Maybe when CW does it in Minneapolis or those Minneapolis people, because I can just, I can get an Amtrak and go on an Amtrak. Just there’s Amtrak goes straight to Chicago or Minneapolis or that way. So maybe I’ll do that. I don’t know. So we’ll see. We’ll see if Elizabeth is back. Let’s see if she closed the correct tab this time instead of the wrong tab. But Mark. Do I close? It says, come on, I’ve got to learn how to, I don’t, she don’t want to learn how to do this. Cause I don’t want to learn how to do this. I don’t want to learn how to do this. I don’t want to learn how to do this. Cause I don’t want to get programmed. What I do, Elizabeth is I click pause on the YouTube video. And then I click on the stream yard link. And then I lose, you know, four or five seconds. But I lose four or five seconds. But wait. Okay. I don’t really want to learn this. And I’m being very sincere, but what should I do? Because I, on the other hand, it’s kind of annoying for all of you and I’m trying to be thoughtful. You pause the YouTube video and then click on the stream yard link. Yeah. Normally I don’t do that. I know, but that’s what, that’s the way I do it. I just pause the YouTube video and then click stream yard. It opens a new tab. YouTube videos are already off. Well, I’m probably going to disappear on you again, but it’s all, it’s nice to see all of you. Don’t go away. We need you. Ethan’s all excited. Look at this. Ethan is thrilled. We did nothing but say good things about you in DC. Ethan, you have two very big fans. It was amazing. Okay. Okay. Now I got it. I’m really nervous to do whatever, but, but okay, Mark. Oh, sacred technocrat. Okay. Sure. Can I just close the YouTube? Yeah, you can. It’s just the previous tab. Well, why can’t I did that? It’s the time before and then I disappear. It’s like the egg regores. It’s spiritual warfare. You closed the wrong tab. You closed the wrong tab. That’s all. Wish me luck guys. You’re fine now. You’re not, YouTube’s not on now. You’re perfectly okay. You don’t have to change anything. I did the same thing before. I swear I did. But anyway, anyway, you know what was so cool, Mark? We should tell them because, and then the next time when Marcus O’Connelly from Ireland, who’s just the most delightful person, everybody. Nice to see all of you. But Marcus O’Connelly, who’s from Ireland, he’s, he has the more Christ YouTube channel, which is fabulous because he gets all sorts of really interesting speakers. Anyway, he organized this one. He also organized an event in Dublin in, I think I was there in June with Pajow and Paul Kingsnorth and Martin Shaw, which was phenomenally brilliant because Martin Shaw told a story and Paul Kingsnorth was talking about the sacredness of nature and all of the Celtic ancient traditions. It was quite amazing. But this time, Mark went to the Washington DC conference that he organized and I happened to be there too. And you know what I thought was the best of the best? Well, there were lots of great things. Mark was outstanding as usual. All of you would know that. Thank you. And yeah, he made the most profound comment about space and silence because Joe, who’s Sicilian, who’s super brilliant because he’s just like intuiting himself into reality all the time, like he’s there, but it’s very right brain. So he’s, so he’s, and thankfully so, right? Because he came up with the picture somehow. He was just, he was pointing his finger at it, right, Mark? And then Mark, who was over there, just, you just articulated, it was just, it was so incredibly brilliant about space. And how did you, what did you say exactly again about the relationship between silence and space, which is in this Italian poem, everybody, that you all need to learn and memorize in Italian, preferably the same. I’m not preaching at your limb. I’m a school teacher, so I do come across that way. Thank you very much for your concern because I don’t want to be preached yet. But it is a great poem. It’s so beautiful. It’s about space and silence and limitation and it fit in perfectly with what Mark was articulating that Joe was pointing at. And I actually thought that was one of the key takeaways. What’d you say, Mark? Yeah, I mean, when you listen to the monologue, I went over the story. I went over the quick version. Joe was going on about the importance of silence in therapy in particular and talking about what silence was doing and all that. And I, and this is day two, that was Sunday, right? That this, that this, yeah. And I had already dropped one intellectual nuclear weapon on Saturday. So I was like, let’s go for two in a row. So he’s talking about this and I have all this insight just bang, right? Couldn’t have done it without Joe. And I’m like, oh no, he’s not talking about silence. He’s talking about space. And the way he’s talking about space is he’s using silence to delineate space and to create it by crowding out the noise because he talked about noise and he didn’t link it in the talk. He talked about noise first and then he talked about silence. And then I’m like, he’s not talking about silence. He’s talking about space. And I was like, oh, it’s crowding out the noise. And so I linked all that together and like, yeah, it was pin drop time in the room and everyone’s like staring at me. I’m like, oh, I don’t know what I did there, but I guess I did something. I think I’ll crawl back in my hole and go be quiet for a while. Because there was so many little insights, you know, Marcus and I learned a lot from Michael Martin and yeah. And you know what was so beautiful? May I share something with everybody? At the end, Michael Martin had his little his guitar and we opened with a song and we closed with a song and he had us do what you know we’ve all done before, which is that we sang together and then the second verse the fellows sang and the third verse the ladies and then the fourth everybody. It was amazing listening to the men sing and then to hear the feminine voices. You don’t need any thinky talky stuff. Once you heard that singing, it was all there. It was it was so true, good and beautiful that it’s uncanny. A mark uncanny. Well, that’s the thing, right? That’s what I realized, too. I realized because of Michael’s participation because I wasn’t there. I wouldn’t have seen it and I got there at the last minute through a lot of very good luck. Right. Well, this was the norm in the West. We used to have these communal spaces, places to dance, places to sing. Right. Even if you weren’t religious, you would still probably attend church. But they weren’t places to converse. And now all we have are places to converse because conversation can save the world. I got news for you, kid. We have more conversation than ever and everything’s falling apart. There’s a direct correlation there and it’s not a good one. The negative correlation. I don’t like it. Let’s talk less. Let’s have more meals together. Right. If you can have a meal with Nate Heil, do it because he’s an awesome cook and his leftovers are better than the food you cook. It’s amazing. Right. I go to a restaurant with people, you know, go fishing. Right. Go on a live stream and talk about stories. Like, don’t converse. Yeah. But Michael Martin made exactly the point that Jesse just made, right? That we need those festivals. You know, the the Maypole Festival. I remember when my sister, like, she was at the funny ladies college. But there was a Maypole, you know, with all the streamers and each person was dancing. It was beautiful. And it’s a weaving. It’s a weaving of all the streamers. And so we were talking about all these these traditional things to your point, Jesse, these these these traditions that that brought such lightness to everybody. And how did that come up, Elizabeth? That was nuclear weapon number one. That was they were talking on the stage. Right. And I’m like, guys, this is great. But the problem that I have is that I don’t hear and maybe it’s a language problem. And I’m not necessarily asking you to answer, but I’ll ask anybody on the panel if they have an answer. You’re talking we’re supposed to be talking about community and culture. Right. Those are two words in the title of the conference. And I’m not hearing talk like that. The way that we’re talking. And again, maybe it’s a language limitation. I wasn’t making a claim. The way that we’re talking is very individualistic. It’s your relationship to one other thing. Your relationship to somebody else. Your relationship to a group, your relationship to an organization. Maybe that’s a limitation. And and it was Michael Martin who spoke up and talked about here’s the way I do it. We started celebrating these various holidays like May Day and stuff. And he said and then I think it was two years ago or a year ago or whatever. They opened it up to everybody, not just was a family celebration that they opened up and because they have a farm to everybody. And he said the last time there were 60 people there. That’s like, yes, that’s how you build community and culture. You throw an event where people can participate in something silly like May Day. And music, right? We need we so we need the artists. We need the musicians to move out of the schools of ours for sure. Poetry and music. Sometimes Sally makes me want to strangle her. So does Jesse. So like fair enough. Like fair enough. But yeah, sometimes I want to strangle the artists. But we do seem to need them for whatever reason. It’s annoying. Why you want to strangle them? Have you heard the crazy talk they do? Sometimes they just connect everything. And I’m like, that’s what are you doing? Stop. Just stop. Lynn, are you a musician by the looks of things? No, my boyfriend is. Oh, there you go. Yeah, he is. He’s this is his. Yeah, I love to listen. Oh, nice. Yeah. Oh, listening is good. And going to concerts. It’s my I love heavy metal. Heavy metal. Rock and roll. I went to Queensryche just about two weeks ago. I don’t know if you remember Queensryche is still playing. And I missed them. I was like, I was going to see Metallica and they opened up for Metallica. And I was like, who the hell wants to see the opening band? Because I’d never heard of them. I regret that because they are wonder. I didn’t learn about them until later. But the real question is, do you attend not only the greatest band, but also the greatest church? The Metal Church. It’s a great song. It really is. Like, you want Meaning Crisis? Metal Church was all over that. All over that. All the themes are there. Yeah. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. So in fact, the Goo Goo Dolls are playing tonight. But I didn’t we didn’t want to spend the money to go. They got a couple of good songs that are really, really good. But it’s not enough for me to go to a concert. Yeah. Elizabeth, what was the song that Michael Martin played at the end that we did the round about? Oh, come on. It’s a really familiar ham. Not to me. I wouldn’t know it. The first one was Jerusalem, which is a stunningly lovely English. It’s just the best of the best. I remember we did Jerusalem. What was the last one? It wasn’t Celtic. I don’t know. I can’t remember. But everybody would know it if I could. But it was so cool. It was just so cool. You should have. It was the men’s voices. It was when they came together and they started singing. I’ve never heard anything like that, actually. There was so much unity to it, right? It sounded like it sounded like one voice coming from. And these were people who didn’t know each other at all or never sung together. Right. But they were there. It was almost like, honestly, the Knights in shining armor and a battle. It was almost like a battle song. Like, we’re ready. This is good. You know, it had to be. You can get to that. You can only get to with others. You can’t get. Absolutely. There’s a clip on YouTube. Absolutely. That’s exactly what it was. Right. It was reverberative, reverberative unity. It was just, oh, I like that. There’s a clip on YouTube. If you look it up, there’s 10,000 Japanese singers all singing Beethoven’s Night Symphony. And it’s all like in complete unison and complete harmony. No one’s off. And just the power of that sound is amazing. Yeah. There’s something about that. I don’t care if they’re off. Yeah, I had to go to the bathroom. So I come back and these guys are all singing. And I’m like, what the hell is going on? I’m like, how do I get back to my chair? And they’re all standing up. And I’m like, where do I go? What do I do? What’s going on? Wow. Because I was recently in Scotland and I happened on this bar, which was phenomenal. And the whole place was hopping. And you know what was so cool to your dancing point, Jesse? There were these little, there was a little old couple. They must have been at least 85 or something. And they were just like, they were having such a great time. You know, they’re young people and the singing was, it was amazing. But I have to say the group at Washington, D.C. this past week and was was even more. There was there was just something there. It was it was incredible. And I don’t think they recorded anything, did they? No, they weren’t allowed to. No, no. So there’s something that happens, too. I hate to say it, but Marcus didn’t record the second day in Dublin. I don’t know why, but he didn’t. And there’s a different feel when it’s not being recorded, to your point, right? I was in Dublin that day, but I never I never stopped around. I found out like in the evening time. I think I was at Mass, though. I think it was on a Sunday. So yeah, it was Saturday and Sunday. It was quite. Yeah, it was good. So anyway, I just hardly I would recommend anybody those those those like Thunder Bay, too. I didn’t get to Chino, but everybody talks. So everybody’s talking about it like Karen and Sivella, anybody who’s gone there said it sounded like it was a really wonderful time. You connect with people, right. And then and then all of this online stuff becomes so much more meaningful. Well, and that’s the that’s the emergence from the online into the bigger space. Right. And that’s what it is. It’s into the bigger space because we have more interactions like I’m going to fly to California for the weekend just to visit Adam so that we’ll be in the bigger space. It won’t just be us talking on a Zoom call about history or talking on the Discord server about any number of wacky things that we talk about on the Discord server. Right. It’ll be us in person. Right. And in the same way, my participation was I get down to D.C. on Thursday night. I drove all day basically from New England and then because I had been in New England that that previous week. And I’m with Father Eric. I’m staying in the rectory. So it was like, well, you know, you drive into Catholic town. It’s like, what the hell is this? I’ve never seen anything like it. Well, because there’s all these Catholic buildings in this block. And it’s like, what? Yeah. What did Bandocles say? He’s driving down the street. He’s like, oh, that must be it. And it’s like, no, it’s like, wait, what? There’s because there’s a bunch of monasteries. So it’s like, oh, that looks like a monastery. Yeah. And so does that. And so we’re two miles away. You know, it’s like, what? Yeah, it’s crazy. So it’s and it’s Catholic University and the was it the St. John Paul, the second shrine or whatever. And there’s all this crazy right. There’s all this crazy stuff down there. There’s there’s that huge, huge Basilica, the largest cathedral in North America. It’s just wow. The Immaculate Conception. It’s gorgeous. So there’s all this. It’s a Franciscan monastery. There’s all this stuff. Monasteries are a sacred space, literally speaking. And they observe a rule of silence. Yes. Yeah, that’s even more important actually. Right. But people don’t see them the same way. Yeah. Did you see the Bandocles wrap up video, Jesse? I did, but I didn’t. Why are you making me comment about things that I didn’t see? I didn’t see I didn’t see potential for. Am I missing something? What’s the oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, there’s me trashing the Protestants, which was fun. Well, again, that’s important. Well, what I want to point towards that, you know, libraries since the 70s became that sacred space. You don’t talk in the library, like the library, right. A place of conversation. The library’s place. Well, because because we what we value there. That’s a revivification of the original monasteries because all the books were in the monasteries. That’s where they were. There were no libraries. There were monasteries. Monasteries held all the knowledge, all the books. Sure, sure. And but one of the points that I made and keep making is that Westerners do not see monasteries the same way they see churches. And the point that Father Eric made was the conference that we had. Could not have been had in a Catholic church. And VanderKlay agreed. Oh, right. Now they can have those conferences in the Protestant churches. No problem. That should tell you a bunch right there. Like that should tell you a bunch about how the world works. It should tell you a bunch about hierarchy and sacredness and everything else. Like there’s a there there for sure. And it’s super important. But because we view monasteries as a Buddhist thing first, because we haven’t had monasteries be sacred and out there and part of the community en masse for a couple hundred years now, a few hundred years now. Right. Those spaces are considered to be secular mystic mystical. That’s what they are to those people. That’s how people treat them. So if you need mysticism and you’re rejecting religion, you go to a monastery and everything’s fine. And then you can have one of these revelatory experiences where you get up and you’re saying and whatever. But it’s not in the church. It is in the Protestant world because their churches just are like, whatever, man, we just strip them all. Like, we’ll put one there. That’s like, really? There’s no beauty. There’s no sacredness. So there’s no beauty. Yeah, well, they the establishment of monasteries, I think I’m trying to remember, but all over Europe came first. Right. The the the priests would travel all over and and they were such delightful people. And even in Washington, there was these these most interesting like if anybody thinks pageant Peterson are interesting, they’re nothing compared to the two priests. I saw the monastery in Washington, D.C. One had such expression on his face. I talk about being being intensified into your unique, you know, image like one of them like he just had the most fascinating. I’ve never seen so much expression on my face in the longest time. And then the other one was so heartfelt in his welcoming. But there’s nothing more fascinating about him than the fact that he was so well-mannered. He felt in his welcoming, but there’s nothing glittery, nice. Have a great day. It’s just like all real. It’s so it’s realer than real. It’s intense agape. Oh, but but but again, like the humor, there was just there’s that there’s the there’s the room for the humor there, too. Right. And and you could almost feel you know how Miguel Chris talks like it’s not the two things. It’s it’s the space in between. You could feel that with when you were interacting with these priests because they’re so they’re so in. And what did you call it? The filter that creates space. That’s what you called it. Like they are literally living within that filter. These people that you have a high filter. Yeah. Monitors. They’re so. Yeah, you could you could put those priests with anybody from the eastern world and they’d be fine. They’d be they’d be just as enlightened as anybody in the eastern world for sure. Hermits often report to like that they’re never alone. Like they say they’re a hermit. They’re going to go live up in a hill and people are like, oh, let’s go visit the hermit. So it’s not alone. In fact, what happens a lot of these hermits to hear the stories, they often getting people dropped in and visiting them and wanting to stay with them and wanting to work on them. So in fact, it’s kind of the ironic joke that God plays on if God’s real, the ironic joke that is played on them is that they think they’re going away to be secluded. But in fact, they’re going away to be more connected. Yeah. And there’s lots of humor. It’s like the Book of Kills, right? That you can see in Dublin, Ireland, when you see that book, there’s so much humor in it and and and complex humor. So, yeah, for sure. Like these are just these are rich human. These hermits were rich human beings that we can’t quite imagine, probably. But that’s but that’s a filter. The people that go on the pilgrimage to see the monk. They’re serious. They’re not screwing around. They’re not bumping into them by accident on the streets of New York City. That’s not what’s happening. And it’s that filter. Right. So they’re there to get that space. And then everybody wants that space. Of course, if everybody has that space, then it gets crowded with noise and vanishes. But the people who are serious because they’re isolated because they have to cross the space to get to find it right to discern that space right now. That changes the world. And it is the loss of the monasteries. And that’s the problem. I mean, that was that was one of the big problems with the Protestant rebellion is that they destroyed the monasteries. And it’s like and they didn’t do it all at once. Right. Henry VIII didn’t do it by himself. You know, it was 100 years later, basically, that they that they did the death blow to the remaining monasteries. As you can find out more about in my wonderful talk with Adam, it’s coming out soon because we did discuss that. And then you can talk about the Protestant revolution or whatever, which it’s not. It’s just a crappy rebellion done by crappy people who are crappy. You could talk about that in light of creating America. But as we point out in this upcoming talk that you’ll hear, there’s actually a set of special circumstances that happen. And that’s part of the reason why people with future revolutions that were legitimate revolutions, whereas I would say the American Revolution was was a proper rebellion against the parliament, not the king. That’s why they were loyalists, contrary to the Oxford historians misapprehension of how that worked, by the way, because he’s an English prat. It’s a different thing. And it happened at a different time. And because it happened at that time in that way, no one else could manifest it. That’s why that’s why the French Revolution fails. That’s another talk that Adam and I have. French Revolution. Yeah, Os Guinness talked a lot about that, right? He really knows his history. He pointed that out in the Exodus series, which I thought was fascinating. He he’s he’s very good at that. What did you think, Mark? He did a talk with what’s the guy’s last name? The guy’s first name is Anderson, who’s one of the former Australian Prime Minister guy. Deputy Prime Minister. Os Guinness did a talk with him and it was phenomenal. It was great. And he talked about that. And I was like, oh, more, more, more. And there was no I’m sad. But hopefully he’ll talk about it more someday. Well, Os Guinness just had an interview on with with Marcus fairly recently. And it was just like he was talking about all of these people like not Paul, but Peugeot and Peterson and such. And it was really interesting. He was. Yeah. Oh, I got to check that out. Yeah, it’s what works if you’re interested in, you know, a very mature voice coming from. I didn’t I didn’t get a chance to talk to Marcus, you know, but everyone wanted to talk to me. Joe was so happy I was there. I’m like, I barely know you, Joe. But I mean, I love Joe. It’s great. I was surprised how many people that were there that I knew. And I was just like, what is going on? Oh, wow. That was cool. Yeah. Well, I had no idea who was coming. Like I had no access to the list and I didn’t ask because I didn’t know that I was going until the last minute. And yeah, what were there like 35 of us or something there at most? So it was a nice event. It was a nice size. I like this actually. I like I don’t mind the smaller the smaller size, you know. It’s it works. Adam, what is your background? So you’re in California? Yeah, I’m in California for job training at the moment. So not normally. Yeah. Normally he’s outside of Dublin. Oh, yeah. I wish man as well. That’s right. Although I believe this Mark is shop is from Northern Ireland. People and you know, it’s really Spencer Claven was there. Oh, it was such an Spencer Claven is quite his history. He’s really got his finger on a lot of knowledge. Do you know him, Adam? Spencer Claven. Yeah, I’ve heard of him. Yeah. He’s written a book. What was it called, Mark? How I remember it’s just recently written a book and he’s got a channel. Oh, help. Young Heretics. But he’s got a fair bit of history on it, too. And he has a great some great a great little three series three times on Dante, which is brilliant. But anyway, the cool thing is, Adam, the point is that I found out his mother there. His mother’s Irish, right? I didn’t know his mother’s from Falkirk, Ireland. Yeah. So it has a strong Irish connection, actually. And North as well. Yeah, yeah. That’s where my ancestors are from, actually, too. So I’m dying. I didn’t know that was there. So I’m dying to ask them where they were exactly in County for Manla. But yeah, so he was no, but he’s really he’s really interesting. He’s been with Pajow. I think Pajow interviewed him. Right, Mark. Did you hear him with Spencer Claven? I don’t I don’t think I heard that interview. Yeah, I can’t. I’m not behind on video. There’s so much to listen to. What are we going to do? We’re going to abandon all that tripe for navigating patterns, because that’s all that matters is navigating patterns. Well, listen to 100 hours of it so Mark can get his monetization. Yes, I need just under 100 viewing hours on YouTube and then I’ll be monetized. And then the Redbubble store will hopefully be completely. I’ve got lots of merch coming. You do. Are you serious? Oh, yeah. Sally Jo did a one. We were we were expecting she wrote it. She did a whole font for me. So she did a whole t-shirt font. And then we were doing this t-shirt and she and she was she’s a crazy artist. Right. So she’s doodling around and I had uploaded the font. And then she she took the perfect is the enemy of the better. And she put an arrow on it. And I was like, she put an arrow like below it. I’m like, no, Sally, you need to put it this way, you know, oriented this way. And she went, yes. And so she did that. And we put that on a bunch of merch. I don’t know if it’s showing up in my Redbubble store, but I will. Oh, you don’t have a picture to show us like you could be showing it to us right now. And we could have some music. Jesse could play some music. Jesse could in theory play some music. I could try to do that. While you show this and Lynn’s boyfriend could come in and do it. I don’t know. Like, I think we need to have a lot more fun, frankly. We could have a lot more fun. All right. Hold on. Hold on. Let me see if I can. I love your hat, Lynn. It’s just like it’s the ultimate. Like I’m envying you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Well, my man’s cooking dinner right now, so he’s not going to be playing nothing. Oh, he’s cooking my dinner. There you go. That’s the artwork. I don’t see. All I see is the pattern of the ocean. The ocean. Atlantic? Does it show up? No? No. All I see is. Oh, it’s YouTube. Oh, I know. Just the map. All right. Oh, I got to put a background on it. That’s why. So these are going to be T-shirts. What are you going to be? What are you putting this on? It’s on T-shirts, hats. I won’t call. Oh, and hats. Did you say hats? You need a hat like Lynn has. Yes. Honestly, like everybody’s going to want one. Like who has ever seen a hat like that, Mark? I hope. I hope so. I really mean it. I think we all need hats like that. I do have a hat, but not a hat like that. Oh, Adam, what kind of hat would you like? We should be taking opinions about hats, Mark. Put on your hat, Adam. I’m not going to put on my hat. I have to ask her from the captain first. You’re not putting on the silly hat. No, it’s not pirate enough. Yeah, that’s fair enough. You can’t put on the tropical hat. Maybe that’s our whole problem because I was looking at this film, short film from 1900, and everybody was wearing hats and I thought, oh, maybe we just need hats. Oh, that’s right. Yeah, yeah. The ladies too, right? The ladies all had these, like Lynn has, all these beautiful hats. Like whenever they went out, they always had their hats. Just like Lynn has? Hats and gloves. Exactly. They all have Lynn’s hat. It’s asymmetrical, like the brain. It’s beautiful. It’s like an Ian McGill, Chris Tatsier’s, oh, we shouldn’t say that. He’s not here to defend himself, but it is asymmetrical. Jesse, would you agree, the hat? It’s not binary, is it, Mark? There’s things that weren’t coming on. You’re saying the hat is non-binary? I’m saying… A non-binary nature. A non-binary, like an Auntie Descartes hat she’s got. I like Adam’s hat more. There we go. I wish Adam should bring his… Well, I don’t see Adam’s hat, Jesse. Indiana Jones hat on. Sorry? Adam has an Indiana Jones hat. It’s not an Indiana Jones hat. Oh, that’s right. No, it’s the Egyptian architects. No, he has a Panama hat. It is Panama hat. Okay, I think we should write to Jordan Peterson and say we’ve solved the whole problem. Same with Vervecki. Forget all this other stuff. We just need hats. Okay, Mark, it’s up to you. Hats and communi… Wait, wait, wait. Hats and community, like… Because then we’d be recognizable. Is it this Mathieu Peugeot problem? Or are we fixing this Jordan Peterson and Vervecki problem? You know, I can’t fix all the problems for you, Elizabeth. No, no, you don’t have to. Just make hats. All right. No, seriously, like, clothing matters. I don’t quite agree with you about makeup. Well, I do kind of, but not. Lynn, I’d like to know what another lady thinks. About what? Makeup? Makeup. Mark said something today when I thought it was fairly reasonable, actually, but he said you could put views too much. Yeah, and… Ah. Yes. I’d like to hear opinions. I actually think it’s important. Oh, this is difficult. Um, I don’t typically wear makeup, but I feel as though in ode to Mark and his navigating patterns that I need to have a little bit of caring about how I present myself and that it’s important to live in the space of caring versus nihilism, because nihilism can creep in if you don’t care at all. Right. And so, because nihilism is so rampant in our culture, so that’s why I’m wearing makeup, for this. To exemplify the beauty, right? To give people something to aspire to. You know, Verveki talks about aspiration, but doesn’t talk about the ideal, which is where you aspire. Right. I know it. Yep. But then again, Jordan Peterson says that it’s a form of… almost a negative thing. Peterson talks about it like… He’s up in the air. Women reproducing, it’s a way of… Okay, I’m menopausal, so maybe younger women, it’s a way of… Well, it can be. It can be, right? It’s signaling. And it’s sexual signaling. And if you overly sexually signal, then you become an object of that. Yeah, he was going up, yeah. Right, but if you do it right, then you become an object of preciousness. You become the beauty somebody wants to protect, which is very different from that over-makeupy, sort of purely sexual interaction. And that’s what I was getting at. And look, Ethan’s a hardcore extremist. He’s just a downer on makeup. And now he’s moderating. Like all things, it’s fine in moderation. I see. Now he’s kind of… Next thing he backs off… Wow, watch that, Ethan, right? First of all, and then… Yeah, he was looking at our faces to read us to see what we thought. Right? There’s the K-Fabe. It gets into the K-Fabe space. How’s that? Makeup gets into the K-Fabe space. Can we call that K-Fabe? I don’t believe in K-Fabe. I think that the K-Fabe is a K-Fabe. What’s K-Fabe mean, Linh, please? Oh, goodness. Okay, do you remember when… I don’t know. When I was a kid, in the 80s, okay, Hulk Hogan and all these wrestlers, they were wrestling. And they all had it all planned out. So before the wrestling match, they all decided who the winner was and who the loser was. And then they would go to these wrestling matches, and they would pretend to win or lose. Okay, and so this is a phenomena from the wrestling thing that you would pretend to be that. So that has dwarfed into the… Well, I’ll say the trans space. Oh. So it’s kind of emerged out of that. And so a lot of… There’s some very beautiful men that are being very girl-like. And it’s a type of K-Fabe. Oh. Well, I think… It’s got a lot with K-Pop. The men look more like women. Yeah, but I think the problem with K-Fabe is that if that’s what you think was happening with wrestling, then you weren’t paying attention. What was happening with wrestling? Well, I didn’t care. I never got into it. Yeah, it was… But that’s the problem. The people who never got into it think that that’s what happened because they didn’t participate. And actually, VanderKlay did this amazing talk, amazing talk with this wrestler out of Israel. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Recently. Right, right. Professional wrestler as collective participatory narrative art. I will grab a link to this. Yeah, that guy was really good. Really amazing. You can watch VanderKlay in real time having realizations, right? And the realization is around the nature of K-Fabe or the non-existence of K-Fabe. And my argument has always been, if you think it was all planned out, you’re wrong. It’s not that there weren’t planned aspects to it, but this guy actually talks about it perfectly and sort of explains to you exactly what’s going on and how it’s significant. Because good guys would turn into bad guys. And that wasn’t done by the people running the wrestling organization. That was done by the fans and the audience. And Ethan has a great point. Professional wrestling based can confirm. The other thing that… Well, here’s Ethan. The other thing that Ethan pointed out was that all these famous guys, especially from the 80s wrestling, they were freaking Catholic. That happened to Hulk Hogan. He was originally… Was it a heel is like the good guy, I think? And then… No, heel’s the bad guy. Heel’s the bad guy. Whatever the opposite of the heel is during the 80s and then in the 90s, he grew like a five-clock style. And he became the heel. So there’s something really interesting, particularly with Hulk Hogan, what happened with professional wrestling. You probably just find it in any type in Hulk Hogan documentary or something. You could probably find this, but the industry really changed with him because beforehand it was just a local entertainment thing, a communal thing. But after Hogan entered the ring, it exploded. Like him with the WWF. I was watching an interview with him and he said, yeah, I was wrestling and what people used to do is they’d get a guy in the corner of the ring and they’d just keep kicking him and kicking him and kicking him. And then one night I just kicked the guy once and looked up at the audience. And made a face or something like that. And the reaction from the audience when I looked up was bigger from when I kicked the guy in the corner of the ring. So he started doing this thing where he would throw a guy in the corner of the ring and kick him once. And then he’d say, stay down. And then he’d get up and prostrate around and engage the audience. And then he just changed professional wrestling that way. It involved the audience on a much bigger level. And then TV, it got involved with network television. You have all of those other material constraints that are coming in and feeling that. But yeah, what Hogan did is he really turned it into a… He really engaged the audience into participation with the wrestling match. Wow. That’s interesting. And if you look at UFC, which is what people would consider real fighting, five times more people show up to a professional wrestling bout than do a UFC bout. But it’s more than just fighting. It’s engaging the audience in participation and story. I mean, that’s really what it is. The audience is afforded participation and story. I have a question. What’s the difference between that and propaganda? That’s a problem, Lynn, because I am pretty insistent that propaganda isn’t a determination you can make in the moment. It’s always a post-hoc rationalization based on a bunch of factors like ethics. So you can look at everything that, say, the communists did as propagandistic. But that’s only if you believe communism is bad. And so the communists at the time thought that the story they were telling was good. And to your point, Ethan, if you watch very closely, especially over time, what you’ll see is you’ll see… So I grew up in Boston, right, largely. And so the sports teams had, and this is the term they used, a storied past. So it was the storied past of the Boston Celtics, right? It was the storied past of the Boston Bruins. It was the storied past of the Boston Red Sox versus the New York Yankees. And that’s tied to a bunch of other things. But when you start to get into it, they do stats, right? And then stats are interesting, and certain types of people are interested in stats, but not very many people. And what happens is you start to hear the story of the player and then the stats. So over time, more and more story is injected in. So if you look at the UFC, it’s an easy one. You look at the UFC 10 years ago. Yes, yes, exactly. Yep. A, nobody had a past. There was no historical grounding because it was a relatively new sport, right? But even people who come into the sport knew they start talking about their path into the sport. Yeah. They never did that before. They can’t avoid it. It’s inevitable. You can even watch Olympic. If you want to watch Olympic gold medal matches, the commentators are continually incorporating story, the background of the wrestler. He came from this background, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This guy’s undefeated. He’s done this. He’s with this country. I mean, yeah, it’s inevitable. If you really only just got down to an ominous person fighting another an ominous person or a no name versus a no name, nobody will ever watch it. That’s the point where you get to zero. When the audience gets to zero, participation is the moment where nobody watches it because we engage through story. Yeah, you want and that’s what that’s patient. Yes. And that’s actually historical grounding to engage with. And then they get invested in this player versus that player. And how do players lose cred? So you look at Barry Bonds and the steroids. Right. Every freaking baseball player was doing the same freaking steroids, guys. Why is Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire the ones that take the brunt of that? There’s no reason for that. Like, they’re just the ones that got demonized because people felt like they were cheating, even though the bottom line is they still would have been the best players of the day. Maybe they would have wouldn’t have hit quite so many home runs or whatever. Maybe they wouldn’t have broken the records quite so much, but they were still the best players of their day. So that’s the steroids they were taking that everybody else was taking still put them over the edge because they were still at the top. Right. It just made the top a little bit higher. We can have arguments about whether or not they should be banned or whatever. Should their records be counted? Fine. Fair enough. But it was that corruption of the person, of the goodness, of the purity of the person in their story that caused their fall from the grace of baseball, for example. And this happens in all the sports, right? They all get these little scandals around steroids or drug use or, you know, Lance Armstrong. Right. Lance Armstrong is the king of the cycling world. Anybody involved in cycling in any fashion whatsoever knew he was joking. Like everybody knew from like the third race or something that he was joking that some of them didn’t know how, but they were sure he was joking. And until it became a big deal, it didn’t become a big deal outside of cycling, even though everybody knew what was going on. And he wasn’t the only one joking either. So, Mark, what about the propaganda though that Lynn was talking about? What’s propaganda? Yeah, that’s what I want to know. Right. Is it? But this is the problem. Like I insist that propaganda is not determinable in the moment. Like I can’t tell you today which signals you’re hearing are propagandistic and which ones aren’t. All I can tell you is that I can identify something coherent that I can label propaganda now that happened in the past. The problem with that is that as near as I can tell, it is entirely reliant upon a set of ethical and moral considerations that only exist as the result of that thing having happened. It’s something, there’s something that there’s something similar here to the reason why saints are always canonized after they’re dead. Never while they’re still living. It’s a post hoc understanding of things. So I guess the key would be to recognize the narrative. You have to recognize the narrative that’s being, is that, and the framing within that narrative, that would be the key? Is that? Yes, you need the end of the story to properly contrast and contextualize what happened. Yeah, well, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, but propaganda strikes me as not really being narrative. Right? It’s the ultimate narrative. It is. It’s the skinny narrative, you might say, right? I don’t know if we can help you. It underlies narrative because, as Mark says, you need the end because you could have a whole narrative, but everything’s perfect as utopia, but the very end is everyone dies. Right, so if it’s perfect. And then you can have that as propaganda. If it’s perfect, it can’t be narrative, is my point. Well, it could be anything. It could be like Act 1, Act 2, and then Act 3, everybody dies. Yeah, but you can smell it. Mark, I kind of wonder, you can kind of, you know, I’m just thinking of, if you’d excuse me, Nazi Germany, because that’s something I’m a little bit more familiar with, but to me you can tell. You can feel it, maybe even. So I don’t know if that’s narrative. Help me, Ethan. No, you can’t in the beginning. This is the big, everybody leaves out the beginning of that story. Really, it’s impossible for us to, literally impossible for us to understand. Okay? Hitler saved the country of Germany and its entire inhabitants. Right. Wealthy people were pimping their daughters. The elite Germans were selling their female children into sexual slavery for real, actually, to eat. Yeah, I know, I know, I know all about that, you’re right. Well, okay, but, but the first act looks pretty freaking good for Hitler. Like, oh, Hitler, you know, scammed everybody and got on the cover of Time magazine. He didn’t scam anybody, man. You got to, I, I personally, this is where I get upset at people, you can’t know that. How do you know what I can know and can’t know? You didn’t do the research, I did. I know what research I did. I was there doing the freaking work, right? I’ve read contemporary writings from the time period, okay, on microfiche for freaking real. I read them. I saw it. I read it. You know who didn’t? You didn’t, if you don’t know this, okay? Almost every smart person of the time, almost every political person of the time. I know, I know, I’m a good time person. Almost everybody said Germany would not be around in three to five years. It wouldn’t exist as a place, as a country, and those people would no longer be around. This is right after World War I, right, because of the Treaty of Versailles. Nobody felt good about the Treaty of Versailles. Woodrow Wilson, who is a scumbag, granted, but was a ridiculous idealist, quit the League of Nations, which is the precursor to the UN, which would tell you a lot about the evil of the UN, because of the treatment of Germany by France, and the fact is he couldn’t stop it. His utopic vision was wrong. People would not just treat other people okay. And the thing that people don’t understand about the Treaty of Versailles is that… I’m being preached at again. The Treaty of Versailles was all… I shouldn’t have asked the question. Economically calculated. The whole thing was economics. They actually put a price on all the French people murdered, and then said, Germany owes us like three trillion dollars, or some stupid amount of money. It was more money than the world actually had. And they said, Germany owes us more money than is in the world economy for the crimes of World War I. And then they put that burden on Germany, and took all of their farmland, all the good land. And so, in order to save Germany, Hitler had to go and take the land back by force. And that’s why nobody blinked until it was Poland. But the thing was, even Neville Chamberlain didn’t do anything about Poland, because nobody could tell at the time, at the moment, when he went too far. It was impossible to tell, because this guy just saved the whole country. Maybe he’s right and we’re wrong, because we thought the country couldn’t be saved. And Germany went from the poorest modern Western nation on the planet. Okay, I have a question. To the most technologically advanced nation. I have a question, Mark. I have a question. So does that mean, since COVID is over, we can now identify the propaganda within COVID? COVID is never over. It’s not over. That’s the problem. Wow, that’s a good question, Lynn. Look, I was up in New England. I’m at a family gathering, unfortunately. Oh, to Matt! I’m sorry to say I’m related to these people. No, no, hold on. That’s a religion. No, no, hold on. I’m at a family gathering. I’m sorry to say I’m related to some of these people, okay? This person didn’t talk to me, thank God, talks to my friend, and starts talking about the next wave. I don’t know if it was the fifth wave or the seventh wave. It’s not going to happen. It’s not over, though. Those people are still wearing masks in the house. It’s not over for them. It’s not over. I see people here as well still wearing them. So wait, keep going, Lynn. So I’m still interested in narrative and propaganda. That’s what I wanted to know. So what’s the difference? So like, say you have children, right? Like you’re indoctrinating children. It’s like, what’s indoctrination? Because you have to like, is that teaching children? I mean, you can’t. It’s indoctrination narrative, though. I don’t really know. Indoctrination is just teaching children. Indoctrination is just teaching children what you don’t, someone else teaching children what you don’t want them to be taught. And ultimately, what tells you if something is indoctrination or not is, what did you say, Mark, the ethic? Ultimately is measured by the ethic or measured by its goodness. Ethical and moral standards. Ethical and moral standards, which can’t really be done until after it’s over, which makes, which underlines the importance of tradition. Because tradition is the only thing that you really have that can give you some sort of, I don’t know what word to use, some sort of bearing. It’s indoctrination. It’s the same thing as propaganda. Right. And it’s the same pattern. Yes. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, how do you know? How do you get into the pattern? Well, let’s look at people who put people in the pattern. Okay. Let’s look at Hitler and let’s look at Stalin. They both put people in the pattern. Okay. Okay. Now we have to refer this to COVID because I don’t want to talk about that because. How did they put people in the COVID pattern? How did they shut down the churches? That’s how they did it. How did they put people? They took away our free speech. They took away our speech. No, no, no. No, they shut down the churches. That’s how they did it. No, they took away our free speech. No, they shut down the churches. They did not. You cannot take away free speech on the internet. It’s not actually. They used our government. No one was listening to the government, Lynn. Nobody was. By numbers, nobody was listening. Nobody. That’s not the problem. The problem is. But we couldn’t speak. There is a truth. There’s a bit of truth to what Lynn’s saying because we actually couldn’t speak because we were cut off from communication with people. So in a way, yeah, we were. Well, that’s why Zoom got so popular. I know. Clubhouse got popular. Discord got popular. Right. All this all these methods sprang up. Rumble came into being. Right. All these all these communication methods that didn’t censor came up at the same time. And so, yeah, in some venues, it got pushed down. But it actually flourished more than it got pushed down by any possible measure. And so the question is, why was it successful? It was successful because they shut down the church. Because that’s the pattern. When you shut down the churches, the churches are the ideal for the ethical and moral way of being in the world. That’s not the right. That’s that’s religious. No, that’s right. Well, the thing is, the. The church is is where the tradition lies. It doesn’t lie anywhere else. Or at least it comes from the churches. That’s the source of tradition is the church. That’s the source of the tradition is the church. I think that’s what you’re saying, right? They shut they essentially shut down the source of. But the churches are the ideal for ethics and morals. Right. They’re the first point. The ideal for ethics and morals. You don’t know what’s moral and ethical anymore. You have no way to understand. You have no content. Right. Exactly. At the signal that you’re getting is normal. But that signals chaotic. Because there’s way more people going masks are stupid than people going, oh, everybody needs to. They’re just objectively more masks are stupid signals like way more. It’s three times as much. But it doesn’t work because people can’t discern good signal from bad signal. Yes. They don’t have an ideal. Right. You need a district. What do you call it? A distributed cognition. You’re tradition from the church. When people are just being told bureaucratic rules. And if you look at that for your ethics, then it just turns into like rote memorization of I have to do this. I put this mask on. Can’t go there. Can’t go here. Can’t talk to that person. Have to stand that far away. Yeah. One hundred percent of our access to the church is through the church. And that’s what we’re doing. And that’s what we’re doing. And that’s what we’re doing. And that’s what we’re doing. And that’s what we’re doing. One hundred percent of our access to ethics is the church comes from the church or religion. I mean, if you’re not Christian, it comes from the Oracle. You know, if you’re an ancient Greek, it comes from the religious. That’s our that’s that’s our one hundred percent where we get our access to that measure of ethic or what did you how did you word it, Mark? It’s ethical and moral standards. But that’s that’s that’s how that’s where one hundred percent of our context comes from. All right. Well, my dinner is done. So I’m sorry. No, no, no. I’m used to disagreeing with Mark. I have a serious disagreement. Lynn, I have a whole Twitter thread on definitions. You should look it up. No, I don’t. I don’t. Look at that. Put it through definitions. That’ll help. No, put it put it on. Put it on the server for what? She’ll see it on the market with you. I’ll see you. It’ll be helpful. Enjoy your dinner, Lynn. All right. Thank you. Yeah. And I think not having that ideal, if that ideal is taken away, then you lose the contrast. Right. And yeah, I got to find the band of clay video. It’s a little over a year old. You get a wonderful talk where he talks about the ideal of the church that the church should uphold, which is one man, one woman for life. Right. And it was a great talk. It was fantastic. And he was talking about the ideal being upheld by the church, even though you can’t like you can’t like no one can do that or almost nobody like almost nobody can do that. No one can do that or almost nobody like almost nobody can just like get married and stay married in the pure way that the church points that. Right. But if nobody points, then it’s chaos because you have nothing to look for. Look up to. And if you’re not looking up to that, you can’t contrast that with what’s happening. And that’s the problem. That’s the that’s the fundamental problem. And I do want to address some of these comments because bubble this there’s no word for indoctrination and good people are doing the indoctrination. We define indoctrination by its outcome by a negative outcome. And that’s the problem is that when you define something by the end result, it’s a hindsight only way of intelligizing the world. And there’s nothing wrong with that. We totally need that. We need to be able to look back and say we tried this experiment because it was an experiment and nobody knew how it was going to end and it ended badly. OK, that’s good information. But you can’t determine that in the moment. You can’t go, oh, this is definitely propaganda. This is definitely indoctrination because you don’t have the end of the story. And so you don’t know. You don’t have any idea. And Benjamin Franklin with the with the crazy take to me, there seems to be a blurry boundary between the categories of propaganda and indoctrination. No, we just defined the pattern and just standard persuasion. No, we just defined the pattern, dude. Persuasion is happening all the time. It’s inevitable. Right. The thing that determines propaganda and indoctrination is the end. And you can’t know that ahead of time. It’s impossible. Yeah. When you utter, you persuade or you influence. Your existence is an influence on the world like it or not. And that’s the problem. I think if you want a livable civilization, you will need to persuade the youth to have good manners and values. Yeah. Well, look, I mean, part of this, I think I would trace back to in a secular world where you’re trying to do the Protestant, you know, we don’t have one religion thing. You need something to fill the gap of having a common set of church interactions. And the thing that could fill that gap is manners and politeness. Those standards, those secular standards need to be there. But we’ve done away with them. Right. And it’s back to the point of makeup and clothing. Yeah. When you’ve got these titans of the industry like Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg wearing regular person’s clothes, how do you know you’re supposed to look up to them anymore? They’re not exemplifying the thing that they’re enacting in the world. They’re no longer properly participating in the hierarchy. They’re trying to fool you to pretend as though the hierarchy doesn’t exist. I think there’s no secular etiquette because all etiquette and manners is rooted in tradition, like holding the car door open for the date. Standing up on the bus when there’s an elderly or pregnant woman because it’s pointing towards a value and a virtue. Right. But those are common. Like that’s the thing. Like politeness standards are common and they’re like the things we have in common between the religions instead of focusing on the different branches. The different branches of religion and the theology. In theology, no two religions, no two freaking buildings of church, even if they’re in the same denomination, same freaking theology. That’s the problem with talking about theology is all you’re going to do is differentiate not only church, but all the members of the church because everybody’s understanding theology is different as it turns out, especially when they try to understand something as complex as the Bible on their own, which to me is so absurd that I can’t believe that anybody actually thinks for half a billionth of a second that that is even an option. It just makes me freaking crack up. I’m like, how dumb are you to think that you as a single person can understand a line of the Bible? Like you’re no one’s that smart. No one. This is encoded knowledge for thousands of years by millions of people who are smarter than you for sure. And you think you can understand that? Like, come on, come on. We can’t even read Plato’s Republic and understand it. And that’s not as deep as the Bible. Come on. We keep trying. And it’s just so much there that any number of book clubs is going to find something unique. Like you can’t understand that by yourself. You can’t even understand the damn book club. Like you can understand and get deep and you should do it. You have no hope of understanding that yourself. Come on. Like give me a freaking break. How arrogant are you? Like at some point, right? You think you’re smarter than Plato? You think you’re smarter than Plato? Heidegger didn’t get past Plato. Nietzsche didn’t get past Plato. None of these Muppets got past Plato. Like, no, it’s a hard no. Like we already have those answers. We didn’t need those new philosophers. They didn’t add anything to the equation whatsoever. Heidegger didn’t discover anything new. He just like made up new words for old things that we already had better words for. Just because he didn’t like them. He came up with more hyphens. He’s added hyphens between three, four words. And I was like, yeah, that’s done. Neologism. Right. Right. Yeah, well said, Mark. Thank you. Thank you. Sally Jo. Most churches were shut down in advance by the churches trying to be non-political. Right. They were trying to live in objective material reality, which doesn’t exist, by the way. Or if it did, it wouldn’t help us because it’s a foolish thing. You can’t occupy the same space at the same time. So having an objective material reality doesn’t solve a problem. They could not push back on policy if they were out of politics. Exactly. And that’s the problem. That’s the problem. Well, and also depending on what church you’re in. I know in Catholic churches there is something like, not to the same degree, supposed to be an observance of a monastic silence, but actually if you go into a lot of churches today, depending, it depends. But most of the time people will talk and it’s a normal thing. And I think when that happens, you’re basically, you’re attempting to crowd out the space that is shown by the silence. And going back to monasteries as well, the reason why I think they became more hidden as time went on was because they were basically used as a treasure trove to raid occasionally. And once that happens, of course, you can never have that exemplification of that crowding out of the noise and making space or silence except really in churches. And if the churches are closed, it’s gone. There is no, it’s gone. Right. Well, and there’s that, right? Once the Pope gets shot, he’s no longer an open car ever again. Yes. Yeah, that’s right. John Paul II got shot. And yeah, that’s where you get the Pope Mobile with the bulletproof glass. Right. Now he’s separated more from the people by technology. Right. And so there’s a loss of intimacy with the ideal. And William Branch, I hold the door all the time. I was raised right by my mom or I was raised right or my mom might nail my clothes to the floor or give me a right cross. Yeah, well, that’s important. Look, my mother’s dead. And if I didn’t pay for a meal when I was out with a female or something, I’m scared that she’ll come back and like put a snake in my house or something. I don’t know. Maybe that’s where the damn snake came from. Maybe I did something wrong. I don’t even know. What a story. You had a snake in the house today. Telling you, Mark, something’s going on. Oh, no, the snake was in the house while I was in D.C. Oh, yeah. The story is way better than that. So I get home, right. And I walk in and I’m like, there’s all this stuff knocked off of the in the kitchen on the floor. And I’m like, that’s weird. And I’m like, I don’t understand. And I come in the office and like my light is knocked on the floor and a bunch of my markers, not all of them. And I’m like, what? And my little toy tank is knocked off onto the floor. And I’m like, what? And I’m like, you know what? We have earthquakes here. We do. We have a bunch of little Elgin, South Carolina. We get a bunch of earthquakes, cluster earthquakes. It’s like mini California. And so I’m like, well, maybe we had an earthquake. But my friend, Kira, didn’t talk about it. So I’m like, well, that’s weird. She would have told me she would ask me like, did you feel that? You know, because that’s usually what happens. So on on Wednesday, I go into the bathroom to take a shower in the morning and everything that’s on the side of the tub is in the tub. And I was like, wait a minute. I took a shower on Monday and everything was in the rim of the tub where it belongs. Like, you know, and sometimes something will fall in the tub and I’ll miss it, but not everything. And I was like, I’m trying to figure it out. Like, is there like a squirrel in the house or a chipmunk? Like, what’s going on? So then the other day I was listening to a video here in the office and I heard a noise and I went, that’s not a normal noise. And I’m like, is that noise in the house? I can’t tell. And so I paused the video and the noise, I was pretty sure it was in the house. But I still don’t know what it is. And like, I’m really good. Like, I can tell you what every noise that happens in the house actually is. It might take me a couple of seconds, but I always know. I’m like, no, no, no, that’s this. That happened. Even if it’s house settling or whatever, I know immediately what it is. So I never heard this noise. So I’m like, what the hell is that? And so I poked my head out of the office very quietly because I don’t want to like, because I think it might be a little bit weird. Because I think it might be a little critter or something, right? A mouse, something. It’s got to be a reasonable size. And I figure out that it’s in the back room, not in the living room. It’s in the back room. So I get my head poked into the back room and I hear like this rustling of paper noise. And I’m like, oh, maybe the painting that I took out that’s not in a frame, it’s just a canvas, is like falling to the floor or something. Because maybe it’s rustling. And then I see this black snake and I’m like, whoa, what the hell was that? So I’m like, I don’t know what to do about the snake. I’m going to deal with him tomorrow. So I put towels under the door and make sure he can’t get out. Well, the damn thing got out. So I come in today and I walked into the living room and he’s like backing up into the corner. And I’m like, well, how the hell did you get in here? And then I’m like, now I got to deal with the snake immediately. And I’m like, I got like, I don’t know, was it 40 minutes or something or an hour before the stream? I’m like, I’m going to get the snake out of here now. It was close to 20 minutes before the stream. How did you get him out? Yeah, it was just before the stream. Oh, yeah. Adam can tell you he was, these guys were having a blast. They’re all laughing. My office door is closed and I’m not in the room and the camera’s on, I’m Discord and they’re hearing me go, you bastard. And I’m yelling at the snake. They can probably hear some of it. Right. And I’m popping every once in a while and giving them updates. Like, I got the snake in the box. I got the snake in a box. He kept charging things. I’m like, dude, you’re not venomous. Like, what are you doing? And I’m not, I didn’t have my hands near him. I had these poles that I was trying to manipulate him with. But I got him in a box. I closed up the box and I threw him outside. And then he lunged at me. I’m like, dude, you’re four feet away. You’re a two foot snake. Like, get real. Like, you’re not getting me. And even if you do, you’re not poisonous. Like, it’s just going to hurt. And I really don’t want to get bit by a snake. But yeah, it was weird. So snake is gone. Hopefully he won’t come back. I don’t know how the hell he got in. But yeah, it was. What does that mean? I think your life is going to go upside down in topsy turvy. That’s change, right? The snake is change. I don’t know. I don’t know. Get ready, Mark. We’ll see what happens this week. Trouble is, spoiler, Mark, one. Yes, I’m bigger than the snake. I like what Ethan said here. They’re very, very important to remember that it’s not a conspiracy of persons that are shutting down the churches, but a spirit that is, a spirit that nonetheless the churches themselves may be susceptible to. Yes, they’re susceptible to the materialism. This is the recession of the church. They’re receding from their duty as the upholders of the ideal. And when they do that, they ruin the world because now we have nothing to aspire to. That was a good point Ethan made, though. It’s really profound. I can’t quite get my head around it, but it’s extremely profound. Ethan doesn’t make bad points in my experience. I do know that, but really crazy things, but that’s usually on the Discord. Yeah, but that’s really reaching, right? It’s not just a conspiracy. It’s not just a bunch of people. It’s not like a cabal of humans that are rationally running the world. That’s what’s scary about this stuff, right? Well, that’s what should scare you, is that there’s a spirit that you, but this is how you get in conspiracy theory, right? If you believe that the White House in the United States is running things, which it isn’t, by the way, but the things that they’re doing are intentional, rational, and that they are competent to do them, then they’re definitely lizard people because the things they’re doing do not match any possible earthly combination of things that would benefit them. So if you believe those other things, which are foolish to believe, by the way, because almost no one’s competent, certainly not politicians, right? Almost nobody’s intentional. They’re doing things without really understanding, right? And the things that they’re doing do not manifest rationally. They’re not making rational decisions, right? It’s not rational to think if we give people homes, there won’t be homeless people. I know that sounds rational, but it’s been tried a million times actually, and it never works because homelessness isn’t one thing. Homelessness ends date from a number of starting points. The biggest group of homeless people is mentally ill people. Where did they come from? They came from Ken Keys and one flew over the cuckoo’s nest. No, really. Look up the history of that. It was the combination of that and the incompetent people that got hired in California to examine the situation. They created the homeless problem from the state of California, which is why we’re worried for Adam. So please pray for Adam’s soul that he be protected while he’s in California. Homelessness usually comes from the drug addiction, abuse or some other circumstances. When you put homeless people straight into free housing, they usually just fall into a drug den and go back to their habits. Right. Right. William Branch claims that snake follow mouse. Maybe I don’t think there’s any mice in here, but there could be. Ah, mice. Ethan, the fear floating around right now is all about the aliens. It’s actually justified. Right. Well, but it’s not aliens. It’s spirit. It’s just that nobody likes the word spirit. So they’re substituting the word alien or aggregate or who knows what it’ll be next week. They’ll make up a new word next week. Don’t worry. They’ll get new stupid words for things that we have better words for. Cyber heretics. Yeah, I’ll be the next. It’ll be me. Brilliant, Andre. I’m writing that one down. Cyber heretic. Nice. You know, I didn’t know snakes can make weird noises. That’s what’s freaking me out about this. Mike, when do you hear stories about snakes making noises? He was he was he was he was slithering around. He was slithering around on a box that had bubble wrap on it. And for some reason, you gotta understand, Jesse. See, see, you’re like a human. And I’m like, why not? Like, I’m super sensitive to a bunch of stuff like smells and noises like and my hearing sucks, but it’s still way better than most other people’s. So I noticed things that like the trick to being me is I have a detailed depth on the vertical that is way past most people. And I never realized this. And one of the ways you know this right is that so you have me watch Ghost in the Shell. Right. So I watch 11 seconds of Ghost in the Shell. Eleven seconds. So the opening scene of Ghost in the Shell is a naked woman on a building. That’s what it is. That’s how the whole thing starts. And then in that 11 seconds, an entire thesis about the meaning crisis and Japan pops into my head. I find, I don’t know, six, seven million relationships between Japan, World War II, right. That interaction, right. Because I know all this stuff. All those connections come to me in 11 seconds. And I realized Japan is at the end of the meaning crisis. And if we’re not careful, the other countries of the West will end up there. But that, the whole fact that they take the feminine, they turn it into the masculine and they remove all the intimacy. And then the whole freaking cartoon, if it’s a cartoon, I don’t know, right. The whole thing is this discussion around how many parts can you replace in technology for human parts before you’re not human. That’s the whole discussion of the movie. And I was just like, holy crap. Like I should have seen this years ago. And I just never saw the movie for various good reasons. But now I’m like, wow, this is, you know, and I wouldn’t have seen it, right. I wouldn’t have seen it anyway. Just in the same way I saw Tron 2 like four times. And then I saw it again recently and I went, oh my goodness, look at this. There’s the refutation of Western Buddhism. There’s the refutation of this. Here’s the Jesus story. Here’s the corruption of the story, right. Like I didn’t see any of that. So it was the same thing. But that’s the thing. Like when you have that depth, when you have the vertical causality down. Now, I got problems on the horizontal for sure. Different set of problems. I’m still living alone in the woods. It’s got to be some reason for that, right. But the vertical causality stuff, it just comes to me. So it was like, oh, I see this. And that tied into Mr. Roboto, which is a great album by Styx, right. And it’s a rock opera. And if you listen to that album and then you go watch Ghost in the Shell, it’s all there. Like Mr. Roboto, that song, the whole rock album thing, that theme is the beginning of the vision of the meaning crisis back in the 80s. And then Ghost in the Shell, which is what, 97 or something. That is the end of the meaning crisis for Japan. And it’s slightly ahead of where Japan is because it’s art. Art always leads. And then bang, you see the whole thing. And so you can see the collapse of society, right, after World War II, because they lost their king basically, right. They lost their emperor, right. And then you see the rebuilding, but it’s done by a super efficient general. And so they worship efficiency and quantity. And then they become like in the early 90s, everybody thought Japan was going to take over the world. Like they thought it was Germany 2.0, man. They thought it was post-World War I Germany, only this is post-World War II Japan. And they’re just going to take over technologically because they had all the technological advantages. And they started buying real estate in the U.S. And people were like worried. They’re like, oh my God, they’re going to buy all the U.S., which is foolish. They never owned more than like 1% of the land because this place is huge. And then they collapse, like boom overnight, too. They have an economic collapse and the economic collapse was due to the cultural collapse, right. Because the first thing that struck me about that movie was I went, how the hell did Japanese people in 97 desacralize the feminine? That was the first thing I thought. I was like, this is horrific. Like I could not, until I saw that, I could not imagine the Japanese society, because I know quite a bit about it, right, desacralizing the feminine. Like it never occurred to me that that was possible. And then you see it and you’re like, whoa, wow. They had such a reverence for the feminine in Asia in general, but in Japan in particular, right. Like talk about precious instead of powerful. Women were super precious. Even the geisha, right, even their hookers, super precious. And they have too much makeup. And they maintain the mystical sort of preciousness, right. And it’s weird. And then all of a sudden you get this desacralization of the feminine. There’s the intimacy crisis. And that causes the meaning crisis and that causes the collapse. Wow, Mark, can you just put that in a little book? That’s great. Maybe, maybe. Is that my book? Is that what I need to write about? Desacralization. I have thoughts. I have thoughts about that. There are many things I agree with you. I think there’s you should see that Japan is the culture of Japan since the 70s is a consequence of the Western historical tradition of deconstruction. So what they do is they take on the forms of deconstruction, culturally speaking, and apply it to their own mythology. So the top shot with her in the balcony is actually a reference to the German romantic. I can’t remember his name, but it’s the wonder of the sea of fog. And instead of her transcending up, she goes down and she actually becomes a transparent image. Right. She becomes the cosmos. She becomes the she comes to metropolis and therefore she’s labeled as sent. And once that scene’s done, you actually have a Gnostic rebirth scene as akin to the Matrix happening where she’s being born from the bottom up rather than. Oh, John Vervecky would like that. The top down that you’re actually born from the top down. So, yeah, right. Right. And you have a deconstruction there. Right. I like what Ethan said. It all started when we stopped venerating Mary Kinkins. Correct. You also say a deconstruction in anime with Akira even earlier, and that’s deconstructing the human. Yes. Yes. But Andre, see, this is the thing. I love Akira. I really appreciate Akira. And you can see meaning crisis in Akira. But what you can’t see in Akira because they don’t desacralize the feminine is the intimacy crisis. And that’s like you’ll if you if you were paying attention, and I’m sure nobody was, which is fine. Like I’m not mad. Right. After I saw Ghost in the Shell, I started talking about intimacy crisis on Twitter because now I’m like, oh, now I have a context. I have a frame for this now. I understand this in a way I didn’t before. And now I can start looking because I’m just I’m still still absolutely terrified to discuss the intimacy crisis without a woman present. Like I’m just terrified because I think because it’s like I’m out of my depth. Like, you know, and I live alone. Like, you know, this is like a big deal. Like, and yet and yet I would still claim that I understand it a lot better than probably anybody else. Like I’ve I’ve got the I’ve got the term. You go in YouTube and you type in intimacy crisis. My videos are popping up. Right. I think it’s the one with Andrew with the banks that has a thousand views. Like this is a big deal. Like and people know it is a huge deal. I think it is. Oh, I’m going to use hyperbole, but I think it’s the deal. Like, I think forget the hats bit from before. I know I think this whole this whole feminine masculine intimacy thing is the key. And yeah, back to Mary. It’s it’s the same. Yeah, for sure. I tweeted out today. Right. Right. Part of the intimacy crisis is women are trying to be powerful instead of precious. Wow. Well, OK, good. Good. Yeah. Right. That’s a problem because power and the way they’re trying to be power like women have power. Right. But the way they’re trying to be power is a masculine method of power. Absolutely. Like he goes to the shell. She’s she’s an assassin. Right. She’s catching people. She’s fine. Right. She’s doing all masculine things. Right. And she’s naked in the beginning. So it’s a complete desacralization of feminine and all the stuff. Jeffy’s Jesse said is there for sure. Like there’s no it’s just I can’t talk about all of it. I can’t even think about all of it. I’m just not that I’m not that good with the symbols in particular. But I see the pattern. Right. And I go, oh, there’s the desacralization pattern. There’s the loss of intimacy. There’s them in the show discussing intimacy. Like how can we be human? Like that’s intimacy with yourself. Like I talk about the three frames. You want to see the frame where it’s you and yourself. Watch goes to the shell and listen very carefully to what she’s saying. They’re talking about when you are no longer you because you have mechanical systems or whatever implanted in you or embedded in you or that you’re using. They don’t even have to be part of you. They can be things that you’re using. This is the discussion in the movie. And I was just like, that’s intimacy with oneself. That’s the it’s not even desacralization of feminine. That’s the sec of addition of the human being. Yet for sure. Yeah. Well said. Absolutely. Well, and just on the point of desacralization of the feminine and I can look this back into silence as well. Oh, go. I’m writing some of those things down. I hope you guys don’t mind. So silent society. So we talk about silence. You talk about a space. And we’re talking about venerating Mary. If you look within the scriptures, so far as I’m aware, one of the things you’ll see in scripture is and Mary treasured these things in her heart. Right. And the old as far as I’m aware, the only time you hear Mary speaking is in prayer. That is, in intimacy with God. Right. Whether it be God in the form of the Father in heaven or whether it be in the form of God, the son whom who is also her her her son here on earth. And I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe there’s something there. But that if there’s an intimacy with oneself, if the women are all trying to be powerful men, they are crowding out the it seems to me the silence and removing all space for silence and perhaps even let me go even further. And life to to to. Yeah, basically, be within them. Yeah, I think what you’re saying is right. I really thank you so much because this is this is my main vote. I’ve been I’ve been thinking about this for ever since I went to Florence and I’m just I spent months with Mary. Right. And well, you’re transformed. You keep looking at those images. You change. Oh, I mean, I went I went from looking at Mary statues and me like, yeah, these guys are worshiping these guys are worshiping a creature or something like that. And I’m like, no, no, I’ll just leave some space. I leave some space there. You know, I will leave some space there. Like I don’t even I don’t have to be totally on board. I just leave some space there for OK. She’s there. And you know what? Now, like, OK, fair enough. Like and that’s important in relation to the feminine. Like I don’t know what the on the end of the crisis had mirrors over on the masculine. But I guess in this way, I’m kind of trying to point something really important about silence, space, and the way that women are being treated. Silence, space, life and the feminine. I think there’s something. And that’s the thing. If you see if you see the silence of a woman silently judging you right as as the patriarchy oppressing women, then you lose silence. And when you lose silence, you lose the ability to find space. And when you lose the ability to find space, to discern space, now you can’t grow. You can’t turn into something else. You are trapped. And that’s part of the problem is that you’re you’re you’re actually trapped by this stuff. And that’s what you know, that’s that’s why we’re insane as a culture, because we’ve desacralized the feminine. We’ve given up on silence. We’re trying to stay busy all the time. The noise is. And this is what Joe was saying in the conference. Noise is crowding us out. We feel crowded by the noise. Yeah, we feel crowded by the noise because we’re not sitting in silence and we’re not just turning will say conversation is noise. Singing together is not its resonance in communion. And that’s why conversation is a problem. Right. Like conversations are real. Not not. Look, I had lunch with Nate Heil with lovely conversation. That is true. Food. Your food. The food was so good. I’m almost unworthy of his leftovers. It was so good. And bragging about how it’s only three ingredients. I’m like, I don’t know what ingredients those are, but they’re magical in your hands. Right. But we had song first. We had communed first in the same room around the same ideas. But the thing was, you know, and your friend, Justine was there. Right. And she was just she’s so silent. I’m like, why are you so quiet? And you’re like, oh, Justine’s brilliant. And I’m like, you wouldn’t know it. She never talks, but she just but she’s just there exemplifying because he is a very attractive young woman. Let me tell you, she’s just there exemplifying beauty through silence. She wasn’t a press, right. She could talk any time she wanted. And some people did. There were plenty of women talking there. It’s not like you weren’t allowed or the guys were taken over the stage or anything. I mean, they all defer to women immediately. That’s one woman can control ten men. One man’s lucky if he can control one other man. You know, and then I did want to address this. So Sally Jo Elizabeth, did you like the dog head? I don’t get it. Did you like the dog head? The the books, the little dog headed books? No. Thunder Bay. I never I’ve already told you I didn’t I didn’t get one because Mark never gave me one. Oh, nonsense. I told you to take one. I had a whole set of books. I actually didn’t really know you then. I didn’t know who you were. We’ve got the we’ve got the video of the books. I’ll try to paste a link to it. It’s interesting that you bring up about silence and space because Mr. Rogers covered this in one of his writings about 30 years ago. He has an interview with Charlie Rose and one of the pages he writes from his old theology professor. The only thing evil can’t fit the only thing that evil can’t stand is forgiveness. And he stops to say the rest of the page is blank because I think we need some silence in our lives because boy, this is a noisy world. And it takes a little time for that to sit there. I think that silence allows for comprehension because if you write you just have to fill that with noise. Nothing is going to be coherent or intelligible. It’s just going to be more information pumped in and not grasp. Well, tension is a confusion, right? Smashing things together when you forgive you allow space, right? That space is the part of what the healing process does. Yes. It affords you the peace, right? Or the harmony or the shalom, right? The restoration of the connection instead of being kind of smashed together as a mutual ideally, yeah, mutual. Even within the self because in order to forgive yourself, you can’t be full of noise because that turns into anxiety or despair. Right, right. Inevitably because it creates chaos and it crowds out everything else and then there’s no space. And that is a deep part of the, we’ll say the problem is that interaction. And I think also the other factor, we learned this early on in the Awakening from the Meeting Crisis server is that you need to have a process, a set of time and attention, right, to put your energy towards integration. And you do that in silence. So we develop the practices. Well, first of all, meditation in group settings works better if you don’t have conversation beforehand. So you come into the meditation hall and you’re silent and you begin the meditation. We experimented with this. This happened. It was like very spooky. We’re like, why does this make a difference that we’re not talking to each other and like, hey, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah. Okay, it’s meditation time. We’ll meditate. No, no, no, no. Don’t do that. You come in, you don’t say anything. You start whatever. We have meditation videos that were based on John’s work. John’s meditation series is wonderful, right? And we would watch the meditation and then we would commune afterwards. And then we would have like moments of silence, you know, at the end of the meditation before we started talking about meditation. And that made a big difference. When we did the group lecture division of practice, we built in this time for reflection. So you start out in silence. You start out with a bunch of instructions to be together, to pay attention to each other, right? You start out with a quick meditation, a two-minute little thing, right? To get you. And then at the end, before you leave the space, it’s a space, right? You spend at least one minute, eyes up, because this is part of John’s work. You look up, close your eyes. You think about what happened. And then you leave the room. And then you go talk about it in a different room. Now, this is on Discord, but I would apply the same thing to physical space. And the thing was that is magical. Like that actually does something, even though it shouldn’t. Like by all material is quantitative measures that shouldn’t have an impact. And yet it has a huge outsized qualitative impact. I think if you’re coming to that space with burdens that you want to meditate through, or whatever you want to meditate on, if you have that talking beforehand, you were just adding more noise to the signal. And then your meditation may go like, oh, why did that person have that certain time with me? Like they seem like they’re in a bad mood. Those things just get added to what you need to work through. You come in silence, you’ve got an intention there. And the intention is one of the most important things. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, we start with the intention, but then we finish with the integration. And the integration is always done in silence. And that makes a huge difference because silence allows you to discern the space. It could be a space that was already there that you grew into, but couldn’t see or couldn’t discern. Right. And so that silent integration that, you know, it’s a minute or more, makes a huge difference to the experience that you just had because now you’re able to integrate it. You have to take time and attention and point at the integration. So your energy goes there because your energy is kind of dancing around all the time. I did want to address Sally Jo. It’s not even trying to be powerful men, Adam. Women feel like they are expected to be powerful men or they are failures. Sally Jo talks about this all the time. She’s absolutely right. They need a man to tell them they don’t have to be to be OK. Right. In other words, they don’t have to be powerful to be an OK woman. Like, yeah, to some extent, I agree to it. Well, we are very powerful. I mean, I hate to tell everybody, but we are incredibly powerful. I mean, women are all the power. Women are all the power. Women. I almost think we’re I almost I’m very heretical, but I think we’re you know, Eve was created after Adam. I really think there’s there’s a purpose to it all. I think, yeah, I won’t go on about that. But I yeah, I’m really interested in this idea of space that Jesse was talking about and forgiveness. And does space I don’t know. Here I go with narrative again. But does space allow for a narrative? To me, it does. Like whenever I’m in like reciprocal narrowing and it’s tight, tight, tight. And then and then silence. And all of a sudden it’s like narrative. It actually comes. It takes hold of me. Right. It takes hold of me. And then all of a sudden I’m in this world. Well, I think narrative narrative can contain reflection and reflection needs space. So if you have two events too close to each other, that reflection won’t happen. But there’s still a narrative. You have a longer narrative with a space in between. The reflection joins the two. Yeah. And Peugeot was just did you see what he just posted about about reflection? Right. He was talking about about icons, actually. Right. And the reflection from the icons and like and there’s that there’s that verse right with open face. Beholding is in a glass or change into the same image. It’s that same idea. Right. It’s not it’s not it’s not. And that idea of space and silence. It’s yeah, for sure. I like what you said about narrative and reflection like that. That’s really helpful, too. And that that goes back to what Mark was talking about. Instead of instead of reciprocal narrowing the distributed. Well, I don’t even like the word cognition. It’s distributed. It’s probably more like chanting or I don’t know what it is. But the words. Yeah. I also think nobody who’s trying to get through a trauma is going to get through it with the trauma happening right after it. They’re going to integrate it after having time for reflection and space to accept what’s happened. Yeah. For narrative to enter into the picture, because narrative and I don’t know its context narratives. You’re you’re you’re you’re putting everything in its place, so to speak. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Robert, I want to hear her unedited statement on that. Who’s unedited statement on what? I think it’s me. I just think I think that women are all unedited here. I think we’re I think we’re more complete and it’s not I’m not being I’m not being you know, I’m not. I’m not it’s not a hierarchy for me, but I do think there’s this it seems to me women are more complete in a very quiet, but it’s not. I don’t really like the word powerful because I don’t really think that’s the right word for us. I think I think there’s something incredibly quiet and complete about women. Yeah, I mean, this is the problem with power, right? This is why we do such a time, energy and attention and place it with agents. Right. Because it simplifies a bunch of things. That means that masculine power and feminine power are necessarily different. Because now you’re talking about right. Because I can’t find this well, that’s another chapter for you. Write it down. Right. Right. Right. No, this stuff is important and nobody’s nobody’s writing about it. You guys need to write about the masculine, the feminine, just what you just said. Like this is this is terrifying. You’re terrifying. It’s the crux of the matter. All these other guys, Peugeot and Peterson, they’re passe. They’re passe. They’re passe, but I’m not I’m not qualified. Mark. Yeah, I’m sorry. You said four brilliant things and Jesse said to and you know, you each of you, you know, like got these written down. You guys need to write your book together. Come on. That’d be great. Well, anyone paying attention to what’s happening with the Snow White story, the new Snow White story. So essentially the new premise with the new Snow White story is that the Evil Queen doesn’t want Snow White’s beauty. She wants her power and dominion and vice versa. They both want they both want to be leaders, self-made people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holy about dominion. It’s no longer and it’s no longer Snow White looking after the you could say the the villages. Right. You could say all the pagans, the people at the end of the world, the left the leftovers. Right. They’re now special people that need to be incorporated in her new dominion and who? Yeah. Go look it up. This is my translation. This is my translation. But that’s what’s happening there. That’s that’s what’s at the heart of the misappropriation of the feminine is like instead of the feminine being the ultimate space for new creation and new birth potential. Right. And Mary is that space. Right. She is the birthing of the incarnation of Christ in the in the religious story. But now it’s no I want to I want to be the place that births it from. I want to be the place that consumes it in over over the top. Yeah. And on the opposite end as well going to the masculine. So she will take resources. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa. Okay. Sorry. But that is just plain spooky. Probably too much to people. Well, actually it is because I try not to get. Yeah. But that. Yeah. But I mean I’m not surprised. But yeah. Really. I mean it’s a logical conclusion. We shouldn’t be surprised. It’s all around us constantly. Right. All of this. This is everywhere. It’s it’s it’s we’re surrounded by it. So yeah. Whoa. It’s also the sense of the self-knowledge coming through there as well as in this new telling of Snow White. She doesn’t need a man to help her orientate in the world or to join in harmonize with her. She can do. Yeah. Right. So yeah. There’s that going on too. So there’s a sense of people can be self complete. Well you can write your own story right. You don’t need. Right. And that’s that’s an extension. I love all of that is an extension of individualism. But this is a beautiful drawing that Sally Jo did. Right. That based on on a lot of prodding and arguing and fighting. It’s like what about the bridge. What’s the bridge. Well this is the proper relationship. There’s so much going on here. I’ll try to explain some of it. This is the proper relationship. Women point. Right. Right. Dante. That’s all in. And you will notice the woman is raised up to the height of the man by him building her a brick. Right. Right. Right. Right. She cannot see the stool that she is standing on that he builds. Right. Right. He did not see the star that she is pointing out. Right. But they are joined in right relationship to one another because she points at the ideal and he builds the thing for her. And notice it’s asymmetrical. What’s beside the bridge. Oh that’s the that’s the work product. The way. Right. That’s the bucket to mix the cement in all the tools. Thank you. Of course. It’s the tools. Of course. The tool user. She doesn’t need to use the tools. She needs to use the result of the work. But look at how Sally Jo has depicted this beautiful woman. She’s I mean speaking of she’s very beautiful. She’s very sensuous. Sally is amazing. Sally. Yeah. But here’s the worst part. Here’s the worst part. So we argue about this for I don’t know how many months. It was months on and off. We get into these fights and Sally would be like Alex like this. I’m doing so you’re not understanding what I’m saying. It’s not like that. It’s like this. And we just go back and forth. Right. And then we get to the end and she’s like doing sketches and all that. And finally she paints this up. Right. And all of a sudden in the painting without any discussion, no discussion at all Sally. None. She puts that stuff at the bottom. The brick and the tools. No discussion. She got it better than I got it. And I was so what a stupid idea. This is why I don’t like Sally. No good. That is actually brilliant. She’s brilliant. She’s brilliant. Yeah. And that’s the thing. Like this is the proper relationship. Men and women need each other because women need to be lifted up so they can point better at the ideal. And men need to have somebody pointing at the ideal. Somebody precious to build stuff for. Otherwise what men do because we’re all stupid like we’re all stupid muffins, especially men. But like everybody’s a stupid muffin. What men will do is we will run around and all build all smash randomly. We’ll just build and smash things at random forever and we’ll be OK with that. Now we may fall into a meaning crisis. We may fall into nihilism. Whatever. But we will build and smash randomly forever. That’s why we need the women to point with their beauty at the thing. It’s so clever though. It’s like it reminds me of the chevalric. The pedestal. Right. It’s just it’s brilliant that that drawing just that insight was just I was like what the hell is this. And of course you know again it instantly comes to me I’m like oh no no no that’s so much more symbolically rich and to the point of what we were arguing about. And I mean it was knock down drag out fight because Sally would just get upset because I’d talk about that makes no sense because she’s an artist. Right. And I’m like a literalist. Right. No no listen to exactly the words I’m using. This is exactly how I’m using them. No don’t deviate in anything. Listen. And she you know she’s a hard time because she’s an artist. She’s over connecting. And then when she got it though she got it better than I did. But so brilliant too that he’s pointing to what he’s made for her. That’s just like whoa brilliant. It’s exactly right. It’s exactly how it always plays itself out day after day. We’ve never talked about the aspect where underneath the stone bridge is actually a space for darkness. So feminine is always got an element of chaos right. And it’s actually the masculine it’s meant to contain. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like in that easter up right. If the man’s not if the male isn’t there that that’s that’s a deadly force man. That goes back to something Mark was saying in his monologue which I wrote down. Ability to discern requires contrast. Right. The man’s pointing down the woman’s pointing up. There’s darkness under the bridge which needs to contrast out with the light. The light of the star. Yeah. Well and look here’s the desacralization of feminine. So here’s Sally Jo. Power might be the wrong words regarding masculine and feminine. No Sally Jo. No no no. There’s two types of power right. Like time and attention for man is physical right and visceral. Time energy and attention for women is caring about relationships. Men don’t really care about relationships or like yeah whatever man and women care only about relationships. They don’t care about the rest of it which is fine. Right. The only power being discussed was masculine. Right. It’s masculine power right. Spent majority of my life practicing being a tiny man rather than a complete woman. That’s the message. Yes women are trying to be tiny men. Right. They’re trying to beat up on larger men physically in the movie. Yeah but it’s not even. Yeah but it’s relationship. It’s the relationship. It’s what Andre was talking about with that need of the contrast. It’s like the left and right hemisphere. It’s all the same thing. It’s all the same patterning right. When we make everything equal or we flatten the world or compress it or squish it or whatever. We’re in a bloody mess. No contrast. Now you can’t. Of course we don’t have genders. We’re in a bloody mess. We flatten the world. Like you can’t have genders if you’re going to flatten the world. No wonder there’s trans people because I don’t see any women that are like women other than my little friend Justine who definitely is. Oh yeah. She’s got it down. She’s just a beautiful woman and you don’t see many beautiful women. Right. Well that’s the problem. Well and actually one of the breakthroughs I’ve had. Sorry but you don’t. I’m sorry. I see a lot of weird looking women. I don’t know what to do with them. Well one of the breakthroughs I had was with someone here in Columbia where I was like this person’s very strange. Right. It’s a very strange sort of interaction and I was very confused by it because I don’t. Oh I’m glad Mark. It’s just what you need dear. No no no no no no. But what happened was I was watching her and like she could never hear what I was saying. And I was very confused. Oh it’s a woman. Oh. Well what happened was I figured out oh she’s intimacy crisis. She’s running around trying to do things that are normally done by men. And so she like goes to the gym every day and I’m like oh my goodness. That’s terrible. I hate that stuff. Right. And then she’s trying to run stuff and I’m like why are you trying to run stuff. Like you know there’s nothing more dangerous. We saw this on the Discord servers. There’s nothing more dangerous on the Internet than a bored and lonely housewife. It’s true. They will wreck anything they go near. They will just freaking leave it. That’s the negative feminine. That’s exactly what happened. It’ll devour. They had two of them and they just came in and like destroyed the blew the whole place up. They’re vacuums. They’re vacuums. Literally vacuums. That place. That place used to. John Vervecky used to do once a month Q&A. They got rid of Mark Emanuel. John’s no longer on that server either. Like they destroyed that server so quick. And I was just like I don’t know what you guys are doing. And I’m really sad because I built that place. You know like that was a big deal. Manuel and I built that place. The people who ran it and stuff. The people who came after they didn’t build that place. They couldn’t hold it. They blew it right up. And we were both still upset about it. But you know you can’t prevent people from doing that without structures. And they didn’t. They’re anti-structuralists. They didn’t want people in charge. It’s like okay but if you don’t want people in charge someone’s going to come in and just completely break it down. Alright here’s Sally Jo’s commentary on her painting. Right. The bridge is society built by men. There’s so much. We could do a four hour live stream on that picture. No actually you could. And I think it’s fun. I think it’s the key issue. Now I think we’re looking past it. It’s the key thing. It’s the woman and the man together. I mean what do we need? It’s Genesis man. It’s the key thing. Look at how can it be the key thing? Look at Sally poking at me. Well because it needed to be right Mark. I can just hear her. Yeah. That’s the feminine right there right. So that’s the that’s what do you call that? The lol. Sorry? That’s the that’s the feminine lol. That’s the feminine cheesy. No but what is that? What did she just say? Well it needed to be. What did she say? It needed to be right. Is that what she just said? It needed to be right. But that’s the feminine calling. Because it needed to be right. That’s the feminine too like quiet but yeah. Right. Right. Well she’s not explaining herself. What do you call that quality please gentlemen? I don’t know what that’s called. Women don’t have to explain themselves. They just say go build that. They just say you could be better. They don’t say how. They don’t have to. They just have to point. That’s it. Women point. Men build. Or destroy. Depending upon you know and sometimes we screw that up. We get it backwards. And then it’s like oop. I got it. I got it. So it’s it’s it’s modesty. That’s what that was. Meaning keeping within measure. Wait. Say that again. Modesty means. Modesty. What does it mean? Means keeping within measure. Within a measure. That has all sorts of meanings right? In Latin. Yeah. Yeah. But I’m seeing. Wow. Because it has a correlative etymological cognate with where we get the word mode from. So it’s about it. Yeah. And that was a big deal in the picture. Wow. The thing that Nellie struggled with the most was how to dress the woman. She’s absolutely obsessed over this. Me too. Notice I like wearing dresses. That’s really interesting. Right. You can see the figure but not too much of it. Right. It’s very like yeah. There’s so much there. It’s not even like I don’t even know where to begin. Yeah. But look at the hips. It’s like the Mary. It’s like the Mary. If you’ve looked at Mary she’s always. There’s always so much substance there around her hips. So much. We thought about the dress. And oh yeah. It was hard. Like getting this done was hard. But it was a lot of work. She should be careful with that because it’s an amazing image. Like she should copyright it or something. I’m serious. You and Sally like she could. You could you could write. You know she could illustrate your book. I know. Well we got to get her to do more little dog headed books. Yeah. Because her drawings are phenomenal. They really are. And all you’re arguing. You see you got the contrast. We’ve got virtue cards coming. So we got to figure out what to do with those. But we got them. They are gorgeous. They’re awesome. How do you get them? You should ask Jordan Peterson to advertise them like you did with Johnson’s. The vices on the bottom. And they’re amazing. How do I order them? Oh no. Don’t even tell me. I’m going to die of happiness. Are you serious? Oh yeah. You’re going to die of happiness. I need them Mark. I’m your friend. Come on. You got to get on the Discord server. Ethan earlier said that I needed to get you on the Discord server. I don’t know about that. Oh I don’t think so. All the artwork in progress is actually on the Discord server. I know but I just I’m not interested in that so much. I’m sorry and I’m doing other things that I would love. How are we going to get hold of these amazing cards? Is there a game to be played with them? Our web, yeah we’re going to develop a game. I think I have one in my head. Oh my gosh you’re going to become rich and famous and then will you have a live stream? We’ll see. Well so interesting thought because our person working on our website happens to be here. We could have a member section of the website where we show some of the art, right? Just for members of the website when we get it up. It’s close to the way up. But yeah we should figure out how to do something like that Andre because that would be cool to give a member section where they can just kind of get in. I’m very close to monetization on the YouTube channel so once that hits and hopefully we’ll get the website up around that time too. I just got to spend some time on it. That’s a phenomenal, you better copyright that idea. Honestly that’s a game, some kind of game with virtues and vices. That is key. That’s another key that you’re labeling. Because it’s contrasted in a single panel on a single card. Yeah, I want to address some of this. Well that’s exactly, that’s Dante’s Purgatorio. I mean they should be medieval. It’s brilliant. So Robert says so feminine calls attention to the orientation with the sacred. Well the feminine calls attention to all kinds of things. It’s fractal. It’s all the way up and down. It’s fractal. Or nested. But if the feminine isn’t careful feminine will call attention to anything. And that most things are not good. And so if they call attention to bad things, the world will go in a bad direction. Lady Macbeth. Lady Macbeth, yep. Yep, she pointed out to Macbeth things, right? That was not a good idea. That was the end of everything. And Robert, and the masculine is an innate movement towards dumb muppethood. By themselves, yeah. Men without a woman hopeless. Men just randomly run around and do things. What is Father Eric? Can I play out something about Oh there’s Father Eric that I know. What does he want to link to? I thought he’d be busy. I was all upset. I sent him a link. Yeah, that’s fine. I sent him a link. I like Father Eric. It’s lovely to meet him. Can I play out something about Macbeth? Can we go to Macbeth for a second? The conceit within Macbeth is that she asked him to act in the womanly way. To act in deceit in the darkness. To kill onto the cover of darkness, right? That’s not the way men wage war. Men aren’t traditionally ninjas. Men challenge each other out in open combat. So she’s actually asking him to demasculate himself. So she’s emasculating him and pointing out, yep, yep, yep. That’s his conceit. It’s not challenging the king. It’s not that he couldn’t challenge the king or shouldn’t have challenged the king. It’s that he does it in the cover of darkness. Right? And so they both bear the burden. Right. She bears the burden of telling him to lie that this is okay and she’ll never wash the blood of her hands. But he bears the burden of holding the knife. So that’s the real… Yeah, but he’s a real wimp. I’m sorry. I’m not going to excuse Macbeth. He’s a wimp. I’m not excusing him a bad… But I’m saying that what’s happening there on a psychological, symbolic structure. She’s pointing… She’s urging him on. I forget the lines. It’s been 50 years, but she’s really urging him on to the whole damn thing. There’s a great book called Addicted to Perfection which is about the negative feminine and it’s a book that, in my humble opinion, Mark, for your book, you might want to read it. It’s by Marion Woodman and it’s the most brilliant depiction of the positive and negative feminine. It’s a must read, in my humble opinion, if you want to understand what’s going on in society today. Addicted to perfection. Yes, well, we talk a lot about that. That’s why the perfect is the enemy of the better, not necessarily just of the good. Father Eric, welcome. What do you have to contribute? I’m so happy you made it. Yes, yes. I just wanted to say hi to all of the folks. Nice to see you, Father Eric. Now that I’ve met you, I know who you are. Yes, yes. And as is the common consensus, I’m tall in real life. Everyone was asking me how tall you were. I’m like, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. So we’re talking about the feminine and Mary and space and silence and hiddenness and precious. It sounds like we’re talking about that’s actually the wrong idea. What? I mean, if it’s supposed to be hidden and silent and all of that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. Ah, that’s all. That’s literally all I’m saying. Not, not, wasn’t supposed to be profound actually. No, not that’s fine. Yeah, silent. Not hidden. Silent but not hidden. Right. Okay. Not hidden in that way. Seen but not heard. Oh, wait. So seen, wait. So this is interesting. To some extent. Seen. Eyes. Because, because Cleven, Spencer Cleven was talking about eyes. Remember Mark and Father Eric? And I’ve, and it was highly significant and he didn’t really follow, follow up on it very much. And I really need to know what he was, was, was pointing towards with, with the whole idea. Because the most common word in Dante’s Commedia is eyes. And Dante does nothing just, you know, because he doesn’t know what else to do. Well, eyes, eyes point. The eyes are the things that point. Right. It’s, it’s like women don’t actually point by doing this. Women point by looking at something. Absolutely. Well, that’s what Beatrice does. They don’t necessarily say take out the trash. They just stare at the trash. I’m gonna stare back. Unless, unless, sometimes they need to speak, you know, every once in a while but yeah, it’s true. It’s the eyes. That’s the movement. That’s the movement in Dante. That’s, that’s, that’s profound, right? He’s following, he’s literally she’ll be gazing and, and Dante has her following, has him following her gaze. And that’s what leads them up to paradise. Sorry? What do eyes symbolize? Attention. What is the symbol of the eyes? Judgment? I think it is attention. Attention, attention, attention is wrapped up in a bunch of stuff. It symbolizes attention. And then in attention there is judgment. In attention there is value. In attention, right, like there’s a bunch of stuff in it. Yeah, and you’re, you know, with Dante, you don’t only have Beatrice up there, you also have St. Lucy. Yep. Yep. St. Lucy. Right, literally St. Light. And, and part of her martyrdom story was that she had her eyes torn out. And so she stands around holding her eyes on a plate while she’s looking at you. Don’t think about it too much. Yeah, right. Right, well that’s the, and don’t talk about it too much. That’s the thing. I did, I did want to cover what Sally was saying. Sally claims that I’m her muse. Sally’s the other way around according to everybody else. Now she feels guilty for not working on the virtue cards. There we go. Oh look at this. You can have the original once they are scanned. And I like what Ethan’s saying. Eyes are wisdom. Eyes are the, are the, are the, the windows to the soul, right, and the soul and eyes are all wrapped up in wisdom. I was, I was super glad that you get it. In attention it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit too immaterial. Or it’s a little bit, doesn’t have a, doesn’t have a connection point to the credit cards. Because you need to, right, you watch people’s eyes, right, eyes, the point, but also eyes related to sanity, right. So, a person that’s um, not properly orientated in the world. Their eyes go crazy. Yeah, I’ll go, eyes go crazy. We were talking about this earlier on the Discord server, right? Father Eric was like, you need to teach me how to see insane people. And I was like, yeah, okay. Go find the Woody Allen excerpt from him being on the show with Billy Graham. It’s very old, but it’s out on YouTube. And when you find that, you watch that clip. And when Billy Graham starts basically telling him, no Woody, God made you the way, perfect, the way you are. And you can see his discomfort, particularly in his eyes. And then what you do is you go back and you watch the whole thing again. And you realize that craziness, that discomfort that you saw when he said that was present from the moment the interview started. It just shifts a little bit when they’re talking. And then you realize, oh, he was always the person that was going to basically marry his adopted daughter, right, always. That was always present within you. And like, I always saw it. I always saw he was a creep. Oh my God, this guy’s he’s messed up. And you can see it in his eyes. And that’s why the eyes are important because you can see that within the eyes. They’re the window to the soul. So you can see what a person’s manifesting. And it may change over time. And hopefully their eyes get clearer and not crazier. But you can see, it’s a phenomenon called crazy eyes for me. I’m like, oh, I can just tell crazy eyes. I can just see it. It’s like nothing to me. It’s like the sun. I’m like, oh, that person’s crazy. That person’s crazy. That person’s super anxious. I can just tell by looking at I don’t need to talk to them. I can just tell by looking at them. I recall from that, biblically, the eyes are symbolically the portal to temptation. I don’t know if that’s correct or accurate. It’s important to everything. Right. Right. It’s not just temptation. Because there’s this three-part movement with every temptation, especially in the book of Genesis, is that she saw that it was oh, gosh, it’s gone. And I’m gone. Sorry. I’ll find it. Give me a second. Three parts temptation. Come on, Adam. Pick it up for the Catholic. Didn’t say she saw it was it was good to eat. Something like that. The apple. She notices the tree. She notices the fruit. She notices the distinction. And then she persuades him to look at the tree that they’re not meant to look at. And then it concludes with then they saw that they were naked and vulnerable. Yes. There’s an ultimate there’s a sense of unveiling that’s happening there. This is what happens when you get intimate with someone, right? You basically you unveil them. You get to notice that they’re in a world, right? And you see them for who they are. So that’s what the biblical notion of intercourse or sexual relationships is actually knowledge. It’s not it’s never encoded as a physical act. Right. It’s a knowledge. Like I know. It’s a type of knowing. Yeah. Right. Sight, taking and consumption. Ah, OK. Sight, sight, taking. Whoa. And that’s three layers. Yeah. Yeah. Sight, taking. So the sight, the sight is a tension. The taking is the action and the consumption is the integration. Dun, dun, dun. And in each stage there’s a decision. Right. Each stage is a decision. Because you can not look. You could just know. I know enough to not look there. And as Father Larry Richards, good priest, once said, once you look you’re hooked. Right. Isn’t that the truth? Right. And then you can look and decide, oh, no, that’s bad. I got to get the hell out of here. But it’s harder. Right. And then you can look, right, and take or partake and then not consume. Right. You can go, oh, no, this is, this is, like, you can get that website and go, oh, I’m not, I’m not going to, right. You can look at the link and not click on it. You can click on the link and then go, oh, I see the first page. I’m not going to read the rest of this page. I’m not going to look at the rest of the pages on this website. Or you can consume the whole thing. And each point is a decision point. But they get harder and harder. Because once you invest your time, energy, and attention, right, the more you want to put towards that because of the lost, lost cost fallacy, right, sunken cost fallacy and things like that. Once you’re, once you’re on that train, that’s why people want certain things to be quiet. That’s why there’s forbidden knowledge. That’s why there are forbidden books. That’s why that exists. Because not everybody’s strong enough to resist going down that rabbit hole, right. Like once you read Heidegger, you’re screwed. Because you’re going to buy into that useless garbage that he spews because he’s a three year old idiot. And everybody goes, oh, he said something profound. He must be really smart. It’s like, no, he said something stupid. You just thought it was profound. It ties into character, right? Virtues and vices and character. Formation of character and actually, right, it’s neural connections in your brain. You’re forming habits. It’s that simple. Sorry, you’re hardwiring your brain, people. Sally Jo, eyes are where the spirit enters the body. Medieval idea. I don’t think that’s how you spell medieval, Sally, but I like it. I like medieval. It’s a very Protestant spelling of medieval. That is exactly it. We’re not going to defame Sally by calling her Protestant. Who was talking about Renaissance painting and the Oh, Marcus O’Connelly was talking about Renaissance painting, not agreeing with Jonathan Pajot his take on it. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, well, there’s a, yeah. There’s a story there. I had a little disagreement with the Pajot brothers, but they’re so minor, it’s not worth fighting over. Yeah, for sure. The eyes are the access to the other person’s consciousness, right? That’s where we face each other when we talk, right? And that’s why often, you know, you have different relational conflicts that say you actually have to be in the same room looking at each other. You can’t have a conversation yelling across the house because you have, you’re decontextualized in a sense. Well, you’re also getting back to the whole joke, palm falls, the assassination, right? As soon as he has that layer around him, he’s actually decontextualized from the world. Right? Is it a separation further, not just in the status and privilege that he’s in or the, you know, the hierarchy is in, but he’s also now distanced from the actual participating in the same air, the same spirits. You have another veil that’s been put up. And so it’s a weird psychological thing that’s going on there. Well, there’s a great movie called Hero, and there’s two of them, but there’s one, it’s an older one, it’s from the 90s, I think. And it’s Chinese, it’s a Chinese retelling, I guess. I don’t know if it’s a real myth or whatever, but effectively what it is, is the guy goes to murder the first emperor of China. And at the very end, he finally gets there, right? And it’s this weird, but super fun, super amazing, you know, slightly fantastical tale of one assassin, right? Who’s on like a, he’s convicted, he’s on a mission, right? And he gets all the way to the emperor. Like he gets in the emperor’s good graces. And there’s this whole scene at the end where the emperor, he’s allowed by, you know, because he did this, he’s allowed to go one step closer to the emperor. And he’s like, alright, I’m almost there, I’m gonna get to kill him. But as this is happening, the story of the first emperor is unfolding. And of course the story is not one of a maniacal evil person killing everybody to get his way. Right? Because the ultimate aim of the first emperor is for a united China. And so it’s not that he had all these wars, you know, because he wanted to rule over all the country, all the many countries in China, right? He had all the wars so that China could exist as one place. Right? And the story unfolds in that way where you get more and more of the two perspectives. The perspective of the person who was wronged by the emperor. Like, the emperor did this thing and I lost, I think he lost his family or something, right? It’s usually something like that. Right? And so he just wants vengeance. Right? But then as he learns more about what the emperor sees, what the emperor saw, he’s like, yes, a lot of families were lost. A lot of good people died. But ultimately now we have China. Now we have a better bigger place that’s unified and strong. And it’s like, wow. And in the end he doesn’t kill it. Even though he could. And the whole story, I mean, you get very much, it’s wonderful. I have the movie. Like, this is how good it is. I don’t buy movies unless I really like them. Right? You get this sense in the movie that it’s very much like the emperor kind of knows that he’s an assassin. And he’s like, I’m going to tell my story and you’re going to judge me and we’re going to see what happens. It’s like, this is so powerful that he survives the assassin on the basis of the level of understanding that is afforded by the intimate relationship of allowing him to come closer and closer to the emperor. Whoa. To Jesse’s point that he was just making a narrative creeping in in context. Wow. That’s a great story. You keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Yeah, well, truly, right? Right. Right. Like, really? Like, that’s not even funny. No, it’s so true, but it’s so, yeah. The Sicilians aren’t stupid, man. They survived a lot of war between Carthage and Rome for a reason. Yeah, no kidding. There was bloodbath after bloodbath down there. They just used to chop them all up and throw them in a pit. They weren’t fooling around. Yeah, Sicily’s got a hell of a history, man. Oh, well, in the castles, the castles in Ireland, if you go to Blarney Castle, there’s a murder hole, right? And they used to have access to the kitchen, the pot of oil on the kitchen fire, right? And if anybody turned, even family, turncoat, they would talk to them down below and just get close to them. To Jesse’s point again, they’d get close to them. If they could sniff any turncoats, they just poured the oil, the murder hole. It’s right there, nicely labelled. I mean, to Father Eric’s point, right? You sniff them out. It’s important. We’re so naive today. Peterson made that point. I think that was one of his big points. We’re so bloody naive. Well, we are, because we still have our… Because there’s a snake in Mark’s house. There’s a snake in the house, right? There was. But we filled our… This is what Joe’s point was at the conference, right? We filled our world with noise, right? And now we’ve lost discernment of the most important things. And we’re focused on stupid things like economy and politics and all this garbage nonsense. What people are doing and why instead of being focused on goodness, truth and beauty, right? Or the good, the true and the beautiful is a better way to say it, right? And we’re distracted. It’s unavoidable. Because we’re paying attention to that stuff, or some of us are, I’m trying not to. We’re distracted and we’re not paying attention to the important stuff, which is the true, the good and the beautiful. Yeah, and the contrast, right? If you don’t keep your enemies close, how do you know who your frickin’ friends are? Remember how Robin used to say friend or foe? Friend or foe? Like that was serious. We need to go around saying that now. Friend or foe. You know, even Peterson has too many friends in my estimation. As he might say. Come on! Friend or foe, Peterson. You’re right. Well, and he has foes. You’ve got a lot of money, Peterson. He has foes he thinks are friends. And that’s a bigger problem. He has no discernment about it anymore because he’s so bloody rich. No, no, no. He had no discernment before. He had no discernment before. We need to be saying, who had us, my poor man, he didn’t realize. We need to be saying man or muppet instead of friend or foe. Man or muppet. Ethan will clarify who his friend or foe is. Puppet or muppet. That’s what I would say. Puppet or muppet. You might have strings on you that you don’t realize that are turning you. And that’s what’s causing you to be insane. It’s probably you’re connected to things. There’s strings on you that you might not be aware of influencing where you’re putting your arms and what you’re paying attention to and what you’re enacting in the world. What’s the opposite of that, begum up and having someone’s hand up your rear? I’d say that’s more controlling. At least you know that. Oh, yeah. You can discern that, I guess. Yeah, you can’t even see, right? You can’t see. It’s an embodied experience. You need other people. You’re actually blind. You’re blind. I’m not going to read this out, but you can read it for yourself. Just in case. You’re using my spelling, Ethan. That was me who called him Horrorwitz. I want to coin that. I shouldn’t have done so. It’s really evil of me, but I couldn’t resist. Nope, it’s accurate. I support calling out evil. That’s nothing worse than Rush Limbaugh would have done. Jacob had a stream about that, too. And Jacob made a brilliant point. He said, well, here’s somebody who says they know nothing about politics and then picks a side and supports it. You can’t do that. You know you know nothing about the subject and you’re going to wade in anyway. There’s a problem with you. That’s a problem. That’s a problem. You shouldn’t do that. If you know you don’t know something about it, you shouldn’t pick a side. Like, come on. That’s not good. You’re not doing good in the world doing that. That’s for sure. You could pick a friend, though, but not a side. Right. Well, that’s fine. Don’t pick a side. Have a friend. Have a friend. Have as many friends. Have lunch with as many people as you can. I agree. Well, I think that’s part of it. You know, there was no commitment. He did the Exodus series, no commitment. Yeah, he just made an overtly sexualized comment. I don’t even remember what it was. Was he talking about breasts? I don’t even remember what he said. It was in the Exodus series. I tried to forget about it. And Peterson just howled. Just a sharp laughter came out of Peterson. And I thought, nah, this isn’t probably good for you. It was totally inappropriate. I can’t remember what it was, darn it. But it was way off. And he got right in there. And then he said something appropriate ever in his life. Because I’m doubtful. Just saying. I haven’t heard it. Yeah, well, yeah. He does not have right relationship. Just does not. It’s not there. Sorry. He can be Peterson’s friend if he wants. But, nah. I’m still a no. Especially after that. Because the one thing that actually surprised me in the Exodus series and I didn’t watch the second set fully yet. But the one thing that surprised me was Dennis Prager. And I’m not a particular Prager fan. Like, I’m whatever. Like, he’s not a bad person. But whatever. But he was very complimentary and called out as much goodness as he could. And as much revelation. Whenever somebody gave him an insight, he immediately stopped and gave them credit. Yeah, I noticed that. I was impressed too. What was the name of the British professor who’s Philosophy of Religion, what’s his name? At the Exodus series. I’m trying to remember. You know, with the I don’t remember the dog H. He really, I was really impressed with him at the end. Like, his wisdom because he made the point at the very end. And I thought it was like brilliant. He, realizing that Greg was an outlier for sure in that whole series, he made a point of validating Greg. And I thought that was brilliant wisdom at the end. That he actually that he actually included him for some of the comments he had made. That he felt were valuable to the discussion. And I just thought, wow, wow. That was impressive. And I was, you know, they there was a couple of instances where that happened in that series of different people. Oz Guinness did it. Jonathan Peugeot. You know, just, just making sure. Peugeot defended Peterson against Oz when Oz sort of misstepped. Right? That was great. I thought that was great. So he also corrected Jordan right after. Exactly. Exactly. But that’s a good friend. That’s a good friend, right? Like Sally does that. Januel does that to me. Right? Jesse does that to me. Andre does that. Right? A lot of people do that for me, which I’m very grateful for. That is a friend. That’s friend. That is never mind good. That’s a friend. We don’t even need to do the good. Exactly. That’s what I mean. The other is not a friend. The other is an enemy. There’s no bad friend. In that case. Spencer Claven had that wonderful quote about friendship. Do you remember it either of you? From C.S. Lewis? Oh, it was profound. It was good. I don’t remember the exact quote. Yeah. From The Four Loves. I think C.S. Lewis has a book. The Four Loves. Yeah. I remember what you’re talking about. I just don’t remember the exact quote. It was on friendship. And it was really, really insightful as well. It had to drive in Washington, D.C. I’m surprised, A, that I’m alive and, B, that I remember anything after that trauma. That place is a nightmare. I’ve never driven. I had to, I drove through six and a half miles of New York City. And I was describing it as a war zone. And I was like, wow, I haven’t, you know, I haven’t, New York City is really bad. Right? And then I got to D.C. I drove two miles in D.C. and I was like, I think I have PTSD. I think I’ve been traumatized forever. Like, it was, I just saw stuff and I was like, I have never seen people drive like this in my life. Holy macaroni. I just drove six and a half miles through freaking New York City and it wasn’t anywhere near this bad. It was, it was awful. And the trip out was just like bizarre. Like, it was ugh. So it was too bad. Here’s a question for the group. How do you deal with strangers? How do you navigate that space between you and a stranger? How do you tell what is no such thing as just a stranger? Right. Is it? So I was just at a wedding rehearsal dinner, right? Yeah. And I didn’t even conduct the rehearsal. The bride is an old friend from high school. She invited me along and there was a ton of people there that I had never met. I’d never met the groom before. I’d never met any of groom’s family. They’re all from Kansas. And so the way I encounter a stranger in those circumstances is very different than a stranger on the bus. So I don’t think the category is tight enough for us to say anything useful there. Right? Because I had a reason, I had a reason to talk to people there. It’s like I’m one of the priests and we’re having something actually unifying us together. So, you know, it’s like how do you know Liz? How are you related to this? And then you can do the small talk after that. Oh, because there’s already an connection. Yeah. Yeah, the relational there is built on context. You have a mutual context. You can skip the small talk. But if there’s no context, like the stranger on the bus, you have to go to small talk because that’s building that mutual interest or relationship. Well, nobody’s strange because they’re all people like you or muppets like you. Everybody’s strange. What do you mean nobody? Everybody’s strange. I’ve never met anybody but a strange person, Mark. How about you? Well, everyone’s still strange after you know them. They’re stranger. They’re stranger when you get to know them better. We are so weird. It’s fascinating. Why did you ask, Jesse? I’m curious what you were thinking. Well, we went to be talking about sanity. So, yeah, how does sanity feel like strangers? You have to negotiate these relationships you have within the world. Right. As you just said, many people are strange. You’d say one of my favorite things is that everyone is ugly. Some people are just more ugly than others. And that’s just okay. We all share something in common. Right. There’s something strange about us all. However, there isn’t a normality. Right. People don’t want to assume that there are norms in the world. There are routines and habits and patterns. Right. So that’s the there’s a dialectic that’s being posed between stranger and normal. That’s since more ugly since the 70s. Right. That need not happen. Well, right. If you assume that people are strange and unique. Right. Because strange is an identification against normalcy. And then they created a binary out of it, which of course is a mistake. And that’s where the error was. Right. Strange before was only applied to elements that happened in nature. Right. And so you might exhibit strange behavior. You weren’t a strange person. Right. And now it’s and now it’s strange is applied to the object. Right. Because people are suddenly objects. It’s like no, people are not objects. They’re persons and persons are beings. Persons are some type of being and therefore they’re never objects. And so they can’t have a quality of strangeness. Quality of strangeness is in their behavior, right. Their relationship or it’s in nature. It’s in the behavior of something around you. Like, oh, it’s strange that a snake was in my house. That’s strange. So would you see a distinction between the strange, a stranger and an alien? Mm. Because I mean, the alien, the outsider coming into your community, that’s an ancient category right there. Right. The Bible tells you not to oppress the poor man, the widow, the orphan or the alien. Those are, have special protection from God. So it’s not like this category of the alien, of the outsider who’s, you know, let’s say speaks a barbaric tongue and has strange customs. That’s not a new category. Right. Right. And we’ve set it apart, right. And then we destroyed it in literature with Heinlein. Stranger in a strange land. This makes no sense. It’s a self-referential model. So if you use some of Aviki’s best work, Agent-Arena relationship, what you’re saying is the Agent and the Arena are both strange. It’s like, no, that’s not a possible combination. The Agent can behave strangely in the Arena or the Arena can be strange to the Agent. But you can’t have both at the same time. That doesn’t make any sense. It becomes reciprocally self- defining. How are those two different things? That’s what I mean. Like you can’t use the word twice. So you’re saying stranger, Agent, in a strange land, Arena. You can’t have both be strange. Right. That’s the paradox of that book, though. It’s a transjective relationship between the Agent and the Arena. That’s where the strangeness is. That’s where the strangeness is in the between. Well, no, no. That’s where the strangeness would emerge if it were only in one place. In other words, the strangeness would only be in the relationship. It wouldn’t manifest. Right. Because it doesn’t make any sense to say they’re both strange to one another. Like you’re an Agent, you’re a stranger in relation to an Arena that is familiar. That’s a possible combination. The other possible combination is that the Arena is strange. Right. It’s a strange land to the normal, you know, normalized Agent. You can’t have both. It doesn’t make any sense. Right. Right. Right. Well, sure. But I mean, the way you drive in New Jersey and the way you drive in Fargo, North Dakota are two very different things. Right. And so I’d be a stranger by turning up my turn signal. The Agent didn’t change. The Agent didn’t change. No. The Agent’s the same. I’m the same person when I’m driving in right. Do I drive differently? Yeah, because the Arena’s changed. The Arena’s strange. Yeah. The strangeness exists only in the transjective, which means the strangeness exists only in one or the other. It can’t exist in both places. That’s breaking relativism. It destroys the definition of strangeness entirely. Yeah. Okay. But talk to the Jesse Stranger. It’s a really good question. Especially nowadays when André was talking about our secular world out there, right? And we were talking about etiquette and comportment. Right. That’s why we need etiquette. That’s so gone. Right. That’s why we need to be polite. That’s why we need etiquette. That’s why we need these things. We do need etiquette. Because that’s the thing that tells us that no one’s a stranger. There’s no such thing as a stranger. We all have so much in common that there’s no reason for us to interact as though there will be a conflict. And that’s what etiquette and politeness does. It allows us to interact in a common sphere with a common set of assumptions about how we will commonly be together. Right. Because we have commonality. It’s the opposite of stranger in a strange land. It’s the assumption that we have enough in common that we can move forward without knowing each other deeply. Right. In other words, it’s a presumption of a level of intimacy by virtue of the equality of our humanity, of our being. It’s like a reversal of the Tower of Babel. Right. Yeah. And even the fact that people, the way people dress even nowadays. Because I remember when we used to dress to go on a plane. And when we used to dress to go to the theatre. And I still, I refuse. I’m the only one dressed to go to the theatre. And I don’t care. You dress to go in public. That’s the destabilization of the norm. It is absolutely. And we used to have Easter bonnets. I mean, it all seems so funny now. But we all wore little… It was cool. And we’d had new little Easter coats and little Easter bonnets when we went to church on Easter. It’s very evocative, right? It’s not just church, right? Well, no. It’s fractal. It’s fractal, man. It was work. Adam found a bunch of these pictures of men in the United States in the early 1900s and late 1800s. All dressed up in fancy garb to go to work. In the factory. And so while they were on their way to work, they’re all dressed up. And then they change and they get in the building. And then they dress up again to be outside in public. And to not do so is considered impolite. And nowadays you go to Walmart and people are dressed for their bedroom. It’s like, no. No. No. Yeah. That’s another key thing. We have a… That’s another huge problem, right? Is there a paradox there though between people wanting to put up more boundaries and definitions so there is a lot of space. Because everything is so smashing together because of the different levels of crisis as well as trying to fit in. The crisis is caused by us trying to make things equal and flattening the world. Equality is a flattening of the world’s removal of vertical causality. And that’s what’s causing all this other stuff. Like that’s where it’s coming from. Yeah. There isn’t any differentiation. Never mind. We don’t even…people don’t differentiate between their night clothes and going for shopping. Well, they’re not differentiating. Right. Everybody’s equal. So if you’re equal with yourself all the time, then you’re the same in public as you are at home. And who the hell wants that? I don’t want that. I’m not even the same on my live streams as I am on my recorded videos. Much less how I dress at work. Much less how I dress at a conference. Much less how I’m dressed when I’m in my bedroom or around my house. Pajama day during Catholic Schools week used to be special. Yes. Right. Well said, Father Eric. It was special. You got to wear your pajamas to school. Wow. Yeah. I mean, even when I go to the pharmacy to get my anxiety medication, I feel a bit of guilt if I go there in truck pants versus if I put my jeans on. And jeans are still quite a casual garment. But if I’m in there in track pants, I’m just like, it’s just a five minute ride and I just need to sit there for a bit. Don’t really care what anyone’s thinking. But if I have the jeans on, I’m just like, I’m at least look presentable. Even if I’m there for something. Yeah. It’s not dressed up, but it’s… Well, it is. But it is what you represent. And that’s what’s important. I want to address the other comment here. What is strange or what is sane? Actually, the faux political eco-liberal Feminazi religion makes everyone not them insane or strange for just wanting to go outside or for having a gas stove. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But so this is important too, right? Because Machiavelli, the poor man, he was he’s quite misunderstood and my humble. But anyway, he was he used to when he had this, he was treated like garbage at the latter part of his life. And he has this beautiful saying of how when he came home from his garbage, well, kind of a demeaning day, he would dress up in his regal clothing in order to place himself in his his true realm, so to speak. Well, I mean, it’s like Andrei just said about going to the pharmacy. It’s the same story. Right? I even do that off preening at home. Like I spend most of my time at home. And before this live stream, like I put deodorant on and everything and used to close. But I also put cologne on because what I see here, and I smell good, I’m just like, yeah, I feel better. And it’s not dressing up, dressing up, not in a suit. But there’s something about like the preening and like looking yourself in the mirror and just doing your hair a little bit. Like that little ritual, I think, to aid in your sanity. Well, and you’re embodying an ideal. And that aids your sanity, too, because now you have something to look up to. You’re not always just looking across or across and down. Sally Jo, oh, public pajama wears are the most depressing. Maybe you should be flogged to impress on them that they are more valuable than that. Well, and I think that that’s true. Like we look at this as a negative, but actually good flogging can teach you how valuable you are, right? Because you’re bringing down the society. So maybe if you get flogged, oh, Sally Jo, pajama day destroyed the world. No, no, no. What I was talking about was that pajama day was a carnival. The world was turned upside down. You wore your pajamas to school that day. If it’s in celebration, it’s OK. It was Catholic. Not in celebration. We were celebrating Catholic Schools Week by breaking all the rules. And Mark, to what you just said, I think with the track pants you’re identifying against because you’re saying like, oh, I look so sloppy and like I’m identifying with the negative. Putting the jeans on is identifying towards because you’re embodying the ideal of at least some amount of goodness. Alizel would say that he’s in a war against him at the moment. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, he’s got that foolish war. It’s the attitude though. You can still it’s the attitude of embodying that matter. It’s not necessarily the material. No, no, no. The material also matters because the material is a representative value. It’s a symbol of how much value is there. Right. The amount of time taken, the number of things you do, right. All of that. That’s why women take forever to go anywhere because they gotta get ready. And it’s like, and they never know how long it’s gonna take them to get ready. Why? I don’t know. I know how long it’s gonna take me to get ready. It’s art. It’s art. They’re broken humans. They’re broken. It’s unbelievable because they’re always looking at the quality. Like, I don’t care about the quality. I know I need to do the minimum number of things. And then I do them and they always take about, like I always know approximately how long it’s gonna take. Right. Women are like, they have to get the quality right, which is the correct thing for them to do. And so they never know how long it’s gonna take for them to get ready. Well, because men, it’s wallet, keys, phone, ready to go. That’s all we need. I think the quality does matter though. It does in some sense for the guys. But the thing is, is that it’s if you go back to the guys in the suits picking up their pay slips at the end of the day, right, you guys were dirt in the 1900s who are poor as dirt. And that suit is like their only suit, maybe. There’s a quality there. There’s a dressing up there. That’s lying in the material, right? But at the same time, the kind of same pattern is held or it’s like the lads getting ready in the morning. It’s like even the dressed up guy, you know, in the 1900s, it’s like slacks, waistcoat, or slacks, shirt, waistcoat, jacket, head out. And suspenders. If you even look at the old movies, right, we’re always looking at the old movies here and they look so beautiful. I was just looking at a short bit of a movie my husband was watching and the people are beautiful looking. It’s just the difference between them and us. You gain the quality but still maintain the same sort of pattern that you’re seeing in terms of getting ready, which is good. It’s a uniform, so there’s uniformity without a quality. Yeah, but there’s also multiplicity within that as well because if you look at the poor guys, you can see they’re more plainly dressed whereas you’ll see a guy maybe with a patterned waistcoat and he can tell maybe, you know, for instance with minors, you know, he’s probably a clerk and then, you know, the richest guy or maybe the owner of the thing will come on. But they’ll essentially be wearing the same articles of clothing but the quality will then show Right. It’s not a concrete uniformity in what they’re wearing. It’s a uniformity in the reverence for what they’re doing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, I think this can also link that scene in American Psycho where he’s looking at the business cards and they’re like almost like they’re very very similar and like almost exactly the same and they’re just saying like made up text like sterile and like eggshell on white and he’s going insane looking at them. It’s the tiniest differences but they’re not being brought together. But when you have the, there’s more differences like the waistcoat being the clerk and whatever. The change in material can signify at least some status rather than like the postmodernist deconstructed status. And it’s respect. It’s simple respect. It makes the world outside you when you leave and people are dressing nicely. It makes it, it’s beauty. I mean that’s one of the great virtues, right? Like it’s just, it makes the world, it’s like a garden. Only you go out and everybody’s looking lovely. That’s why people flock to Italy. Because there’s so much beauty even the way, you see the way the men dress in Italy. I’m telling you, you never come back to North America. Excuse me everybody. But it’s true. The men dress so beautifully and they have the clothing, the quality of clothing they have for men in Italy is exceptional. I didn’t notice. Oh well, Father Eric, next time you’re there and if I’m there too, I’ll show you. I mean I can notice like a really nice cassock or really nice vestments. That’s what I can notice. Otherwise I’m pretty hopeless. That’s how men are. I wanted to, I wanted to go through some of these comments. So Sally Jo says, what I’ve learned is that Walmart encouraging a dress code could change the world. Yes, she’s right. Oh yeah, dressing up is not about the clothes actually. It’s about the standard or upholding the ideal. The standard, the measure, the striving. Exactly. And not ducking responsibility. Right. Right. And is the intimacy crisis a loss of self-respect? What did I say Sally? What did I say? Your relationship with yourself. Of course. Right. And then you have that crisis of confidence. Right. So what did Sally Jo say? Perfection crushes confidence. That’s another thing that’s going on the Redbubble store at some point as soon as we get graphics for it. Perfection, this strive for perfection or efficiency or equality or any of those things are all the same thing. Right. That crushes your confidence because you’re not unique anymore. We live in an equal world. Right. If we live in a world of perfection, there’s no confidence. Because if things are perfect, you can’t get better. You lose that space to improve. Right. It’s so flat it’s not funny. Perfection is so bloody flat. It’s why utopia is damned. Utopian world will just fall to chaos because it’s nothing to aim towards. Right. It’s scary. But you know, I love your emphasis on relationship to yourself too because that ties into what we were talking about about the way you comport yourself and the way you dress. That’s your relationship with your… We’ve lost that sense that we actually… There’s something… There’s a space there that I don’t even know what it’s called. But it’s definitely true, Mark. I’m glad you make that point. Because we’ve lost that. That we are in fact mistresses or masters of ourselves. It’s beautiful. Right. Really. Right. Well, we have to be able to embody ourselves. So this is something that Adam sent to me here, which is coal miners after work. And they’re all dressed up. They’re all dressed up, guys. And they’re all got a stuff in their hand. And look at the camaraderie. Oh my gosh. So much camaraderie there. Right. Look at the faces. Like the guy on the left. These guys. Yeah, it was brutal. But things were… I don’t know. I like the faces. You couldn’t pull that off in today’s PC world. You even see they have the little scarves on them and everything, right? And they’ve got them all done. But look at them. Like one of the guys is really having a good time. They must have someone cracked a joke. And the lady’s looking… She looks like Justine, Mark. She’s beautiful. Look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Look at her. She’s beautiful. Seriously, you don’t see a woman with not many of them nowadays. There’s an accidental cross on the image too. Yeah, I saw that. On the mug. Yeah, there you go. That ain’t no coincidence, eh? There’s no reason for those men to dress like that, you see, in modern times. If you had anyone having to do such a hard, hard-going job, none of those men, of course, when they were in the mines, wore anything like that. They didn’t even wear work clothing. They just stripped down to basically being naked because it was so hot down there. And then they got back up. And then they, you know, rather than just put on just a pair of trousers and maybe a shirt and walk home, they put everything back on. Even being covered in cold clothes and then head down to the pub. Because that’s how you signaled sanity. Yes. And integration into the community was being dressed up properly and comporting yourself properly. Wow. Signaling sanity. Father Eric just let a brilliant one drop. Signaling sanity. Sorry, but that’s just, excuse me, I nearly forgot. Signaling sanity. That’s brilliant. Because there’s something about this signaling idea, right? It’s okay to swear. We’ve got two Australians. Wow. But that’s yeah. So, yeah. And so more than embodiment, right? So we’re talking here about a much richer concept than embodiment actually. It’s making embodiment looking kind of skinny right now. Embodiment has to have an inspiration. And the inspiration has to be the ideal. And the ideal has to be unattainable, right? But you still have to strive for it, right? So you can’t say, this is why embodiment practices, as much as I like Grave Kelly, are insufficient. Because they’re middle out thinking. And they’re not aimed high enough. Parasitic. Parasitic. You have to have a reason to be embodied. You don’t just go into nature, have a revelation, and become transformed, right? It’s not to say that you can go into nature. It’s not to say that things can’t happen. But they’re not going to last if they’re not around the embodiment of an ideal. Embodiment has to be inspired by an ideal. Otherwise, it doesn’t work. And a society can only exist if there’s enough of a common ideal for everybody to gather. I was just going to say that. My favorite words these days is Concordia, right? The common. It’s a very important word. There’s this, Ethan knows about it, this really amazing fresco in Siena, Italy, from the 1300s. And it’s tyranny. It’s the allegory of good and bad government. But the stress coming from virtue. There’s a rope coming, sorry, coming from justice. There’s a rope. And then many of the citizens are represented hanging onto this rope of Concordia, like Father Eric just said. I think Concordia is one of the key words too nowadays. Well, who else? Mark, maybe you’d said that. Common, common, right? Didn’t you have something on that? Right. No, I’ve been tweeting out about that. It’s like, why are we surprised that common sense isn’t a thing in a world where nobody has anything in common, right? We don’t have anything in common. How can you have common sense or sense making? Right. And yeah, I mean, I think this is a good time to wrap things up. I do want to round out some of these comments though. So Robert says, the minds they use now have been picked over by previous generations. It’s a different process. Yes, but no. The thing that you’re on about is the zombie aspect of our society. So if you go to Edinburgh, Scotland, I hate to pick on Edinburgh, but man, is it rife for picking on the number one drug capital of Europe. It’s also one of the most beautiful cities in Europe by, like, anybody that’s been will say this, right? The problem is that when you’re there, there are zombies and you can hear them chew on the bones of the ancient culture, right? And those, like the whole place is about to collapse. Everyone’s looking straight across and going, and they’ll just walk. It’s amazing. The place is so gorgeous. You can’t, there’s a volcano over here, there’s a castle over there, there’s water on the other side, and there’s gorgeous churches. There’s four gorgeous churches. You can’t stand anywhere in Edinburgh and not see four gorgeous churches. It’s impossible. It can’t be done. The place is so beautiful. It’s insane. It doesn’t seem sane that that much beauty exists in one place. And there’s some ugly stuff there for sure, but like there’s so much beauty that, and there’s rainbows all the time. The place is constant rainbows. It’s so bizarre. And yet there are zombies there because they’re looking straight across, horizontally across at the space. And that’s what you’re sensing. That’s when people talk about, we’re all played out, we’re running out of oil, you know, the earth doesn’t have enough of this, or now we’re strip mining, or whatever. What they’re actually getting at is this deeper pattern that we’re wearing out that will say the legacy that our ancestors left for us because we’re not revivifying it. Right? And that’s part of sanity. Sanity is all about recognising the past, the historical grounding that we’re standing on, and shoring it up so that we can reach higher and building it up so that future generations can reach higher. And we’re not doing that. And that’s why we, as a culture, are insane. And that’s what you see if you watch Ghost in the Shell. You will see that in that movie. You will see that they are running out of past accomplishments to feed off of. And they’re talking about it in a slightly veiled fashion, I would say, but they’re talking about it in that movie. And yeah, and I wanted to address Sally’s. Wow, OK, so Dr. Peterson gets people to signal sanity, but to the insane, it looks alien, of course, and scary. Right. It’s scary because it’s a threat. Because if you’re an insane person and somebody comes along with sanity, you’re going to get pushed out. And it’s way more powerful because sanity is a sort of unity. It is a type of getting together. And people who are spread apart cannot beat people who are together. Right? Because there’s distributed cognition, there’s common purpose, there’s common sense, there’s common virtues and values. There’s when you have a common ideal, you don’t need to have a conversation about what to do. You all just act and participate in unison towards the virtues and values, towards the way to manifest whatever it is you’re trying to manifest. And no number of tiny little religions, see my Patterns of Religion video on Navigating Patterns, is going to be able to replicate that. And that’s why you can easily make the argument that the Catholic Church is going to roll over the Protestant Church eventually. It may take a while. You got to put that eventually in there. And the Catholic Church is in big danger of following the Protestant Church down the rabbit hall, and they need to reverse that trend. And then I like what Sally just said here, let’s get dressed up and go pick up litter. Never explain why. Right. You see that in conservative circles, right? That was a big deal. I forget the guy’s name who was doing that. And the liberals were all upset, the Democrats were all upset. They’re like, why is this guy going to these terrible cities and cleaning them? And they’re reporting on this like it’s a bad thing. And everyone’s like, I don’t know. Mark, can I say something about the commonality? So as someone who’s experienced psychosis, the commonality and distributed sanity is definitely something that I’ve noticed really grounds you towards being sane. Yeah. So I had a situation where like I didn’t know who I could trust. I was paranoid. And I thought all these things were going on. And some actually were. But instead of distributing my sanity towards those people, getting that objective viewpoint, I sort of rejected and isolated myself. And that made things much, much worse. Yeah. So I think the commonality and the similarity of someone being able to like lift you up and say like this is what it looks like from what I’m seeing, shows you something you need to know about yourself. Oh, that’s a great summary, Andre. Adam, what are your first summary on sanity and our related topics for this evening before we sign off here? Just thinking about sanity and its etymology meaning sanus, meaning healthy, you know, all of that. Coming back to space, silence as actually making space. And what else? What else? There’s the masculine and the feminine also going on in there. So, yeah, I’d say the interplay between the feminine and space making and how that relates back to sanity is probably coming through for me most prominently. And also then how that plays in with clothing because clothing, of course, for men and women will, well, it shows them, you know, it reflects them more properly and building up that relationship and intimacy between the two will help that outsourcing one’s sanity on an individual level, let’s say, between say like a husband and a wife, but then on a societal level between families. And that’s where I’d leave it. Right, right. So I just, you know, you can tell me if I’m wrong, but part of what I’m hearing there is you need the divine feminine and the divine masculine, right, you need the male and the female as separate in order to maintain the sanity because they embody and idealize different aspects of things that we both need. Like, so we need each other, right? Okay. Okay. Father Eric, how about your closing remarks for our stream here on sanity? The transcendental properties of being. You’re always talking about the true and the good and the beautiful. That’s all fine. But the primordial transcendental property, the first one that my man Thomas Quiteus treats is unity. That a thing can only be known, a thing can only perfect other beings, and a thing can only shine forth insofar as it’s actually one thing. What sanity does is help us integrate all of this mess here towards a single purpose. And without that, a different part of you is just going to take control and spin off into the wild and nobody will play games with you. Great, great. Well, and I would add, if I may, you can correct me, that it also allows us to filter off the things that can’t be unified. Sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Elizabeth, it’s your turn. Oh, well, I thought it was a great discussion. And what did I like? I like signaling, I think I like signaling sanity. And I thought, I thought, I was really happy, actually. It made me feel very good that I was with some ladies and gentlemen who were talking about the, I like to call it the feminine, not so much even the divine, because that gets a bit new agey for me, if I might be so bold. And so I prefer feminine and masculine. And I think that, and I just, it was just lovely to talk with you about that. I really appreciated it because it’s very much been a concern for me for decades, I guess you could say. So yeah, it was great. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for showing up. All right, Jesse, round us out. And then I’ll end it for us. Because Jesse’s chewing. You can’t chew, Jesse. Come on. You have plenty of warning. I did him last for a reason. He’s still not ready. Unbelievable, Jesse. Silence. We need silence while he follows his skin. We need our integrative silence. Silence isn’t the same over a webcam. He can just finish chewing or whatever he’s doing and then come off of mute and then enlighten us with his wisdom. He’s pondering in his heart. Maybe. I don’t know what he’s doing. He is chewing something. He’s trying to chew away. Come back on camera, man. I bet it’s a lozenge. So you can’t even chew it. It’s Nate’s fault because you kept talking about Nate’s food, Mark. Showing him the truth. It was delicious. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nate’s food was really good. Yeah. I would have eaten even more if I had thought of it. I wish we’d had an invite. Gee, I’ll have to make it for next time. It was an open invite. Father Rick had two plates of food, by the way. Two. Two. Two. Justine and I had to go to a Mexican place because we didn’t know. That was the first food I’d eaten all day. So I don’t feel so bad. How about that? We didn’t have lunch either and we were suffering just so you know. It is not unreasonable for others to expect things from you. Right? You have a duty, a responsibility to uphold your sense of character and purpose in the world. Right. So it’s your duty to actually try to be sane for others, to be an example to others, right? To strive for things, right? To bear with one another, to invite, you know, to invite your, be hospitable, right? To help your neighbor that’s moving, right? You have a duty that’s there. It’s an obligation. You don’t get to choose whether or not that obligation is there for you. This is part of your existence, right? So it’s not duty. It’s not irresponsible for you to have a duty in the world. You are a part of the drama, right? That drama is unfolding, right? But you need to be aware of how your sanity fits into others’ dramas, other stories. So that’s how you need to negotiate with yourself and others in the world. Wow. It’s realized that there are expectations on you to remain as holy as you can be. There you go. Well said. Well said. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you panel. Now, this is lovely, right? And as my good friend Paul Van Du Cle says, right, we outsource our sanity. And that’s because we need the distributed cognition. We need the ability to see ourselves clearer, and we can’t do that ourselves by ourselves alone. We actually need other people to do that. And that’s where the commonality comes from. And what are we judging? What’s the standard we’re judging against? The standard we’re judging against is the ideal. And so we need the ideals out there, exemplified out there, right? Yeah. Argue about where those roles belong. I think that religious folks would say it’s the church. I think that has always been the classic role of the church, right? And the church as the body, right, of Christ, not the church as like the building or the denomination. That’s a silly way to think about it, right? And so all of the denominations should be doing the same set of signaling. And that is what keeps us sane, is that higher framework that everything fits within. Everything does not fit within a political frame. Everything does not fit within an economic frame. Everything does not fit within a political plus an economic frame, plus a this. You can’t just add frames and fit everything in. That is not going to work, right? You can’t arbitrarily smash things together to find a way to be sane, right? Things do not stack in that way. You need a container that’s large enough to contain beings of a complexity that is a person. And that container is fundamentally what we would call a religious container post 1500s, 1530, 1550, I forget. Before that, the word religion was used in a very different way. And it was taken for granted. And now we’ve reduced it to a scientific category outside of other things. Whereas before, everything was inside of it. Absolutely. Thank you, Hans. That’s what keeps us sane, is having this binding, this binding that gives us the commonality to be together. And that’s where the sanity comes from. That’s how we embody sanity, is by having the common sense of ideals to judge ourselves and others by. And that was the obligation that Jesse was talking about. The obligation is towards the ideal. And it’s up to all of us to hold all the others of us to that ideal. How we do that is a different matter. Do we beat each other? Do we just point? Do we look disapprovingly? Do we shame? Clear our throats. Right. Right. So that’s what’s important. Do we get together and share a meal and stop talking, right? That’s what’s important. And so I want to thank everybody. We’re going to try to do this again next week. I think the week after that, I’m going to be in California with Adams visiting him since he’s nice enough to be here all the way from Ireland. I feel like a short hop to California is worth it for the weekend. So there’ll be no stream that weekend unless somebody else wants to do it, in which case we’ll get it set up if we can. But yeah, we’ll figure out what we’re going to do next week for the stream. We’ve got lots of ideas. And hopefully everybody will participate. Hopefully we’ll get the website up. Maybe we’ll get the 100 hours on the YouTube channel and we’ll get everything plugged in there and monetize that. And thank you everybody for participating. And I always appreciate everybody’s time and attention, especially in the live streams. And it was a great panel, as it always is, but it was nice to see everybody. And I hope to see everybody next week. Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Great job.