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Bishop Baron, I believe for what it’s worth and I don’t know what you guys think about that. I think that Revelation is a psychedelic account Literally, oh the book of Revelation. I really believe that you bet you bet I think that the author of that had a psychedelic experience and all he did was write down what happened to him No, it’s not right, but it’s too grounded in the Old Testament the classic apocalyptic literature I mean, it’s Why is that why is that an objection? Why is that an objection he was grounded in that tradition and all of that tradition was was made vivid in imagery During the experience that’s not be not certainly not beyond the the confines of such experiences So and I think the church is gonna have to wrestle with this seriously in the years to come because there’s an association between psychedelic use and revelatory meaning That the church is going to have to grapple with I believe there are plenty of months We have relations and have visions and have all these types of experiences, but that don’t take psychedelics They you know it that it’s actually through aestheticism and through transformation And I think this is coming back to to Bishop Baron’s point Is that let’s say in the hesychastic tradition in the mystical tradition of the East? It’s exactly like what he said about st. John of the cross. They Consistently Insist that the mystic has to ignore all experiences because the purpose is not to have experiences The purpose is to be united with God to be transformed you know to be free of your passions to be free of the things that kind of bind you and It’s gonna happen and maybe that can actually maybe could be somewhat instructive for others, but that’s not the point and so so I think that I Can I understand it because there’s something about our world too that wants experiences, right? We can we want to have these these exciting or very kind of Exciting experiences, but the real purpose is to be transformed Which is why someone is willing to be martyred or someone is like that has nothing to do with like having a really great Mystical experiences there’s something about it really is about the transformation of the of the person into into the image of Christ Let’s say Jonathan is it true? I’m curious in the eastern traditions I don’t know as well, but in the West certainly the mystics all talk about God actively stripping these things away So even something like the great contentment I get in the beginning of my relationship with God my sense of Consolation to use Ignatius term God will take that away because I’m not meant to fall in love with the consolation. I meant to fall in love with God So I’m not meant to fall in love with the mystical experience or with the vision or whatever I meant to fall in love with God and so God actively John the cross will talk about the you know, the dark night of the soul and that’s really what he means It’s not a psychological state. It’s it’s God actively taking away These experiences because there’s something else that we’re really talking about In the eastern tradition the highest point is is absence of all image and thought right? Yeah, that that that you you actually don’t have any there’s no imagination There’s no thought there’s nothing there’s only this kind of pure presence and this pure light Let’s say that kind of gathers you into God So it is there and they constantly say the same thing they say all these experiences. Let them go You got to drop them You got it Don’t become a guru and you know kind of teach out of your out of your little mystical insight But rather just drop it and keep going up the ladder. Let’s say right now I’m very wary of the idea that the communion cup the origins are in some kind of psychedelic experience I mean trust me. It’s never happened to me. I’ve been Mass since I was a kid Because the reality of it is other than that I mean even if there was something and sort of the Ellicinian mysteries have been well studied and perhaps there was a Psychedelic element and so on but I would never want to put stress on that You