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John Vervecky and Sean Coyne have together authored a new book, Mentoring the Machines. It’s a book about artificial intelligence and the path forward that further develops the arguments of how to align artificial intelligence to human flourishing and it sets those arguments into beautiful and accessible writing. Welcome everyone to another Voices with Vervecky. I’m really happy to be here today with my good friend Tim Bishop. Tim represents a really important part of this journey. He represents somebody who is deeply committed to awakening from the meeting crisis and to integrating that with the economic world, the business world, especially through the idea of addressing the culture of business organizations and the distributed cognition. And so Tim and I have been talking and working together, for what is it now Tim, close to three years or something like that? Yeah, I think it’s just over three years. And 2019. And Tim is now on the board of the Vervecky Foundation. So Tim is really integral to everything I’m doing and I’m really excited to give him the chance to talk about his vision about the integration of this work and the business I’m doing. So thank you, Tim. But tell everybody a little bit about yourself and how you connected with my work and how our work continues to connect, et cetera. It’s probably a few friends, but thank you, John. It’s like just before we got on, it’s always awesome to actually catch up and see you. Like it’s special. I find it interesting and I’m glad to see that the channel’s growing and the information is getting out there. And it’s deeply critical. So I think that’s how I first connected with your work. But just for the listeners, I will just go back a little bit. I’m always curious how people connect with your work. After I found it, I found that I was a convert. I had to tell people, you must listen to this man. You must listen to his information. And the feedback that I was getting from people was it was just so well organized and clear and concise and compelling. But also there was a stirring that people were getting from listening to it. And so when I reached out in, I think it was 2019, it was off the back of some interactions with, I had reached out to Jordan, but because of a series of just unfortunate events at his end, it was just nothing that could be coming, anything fruitful or interactive. And I was a little bit lost for words because I was like, I really need to connect with someone who actually knows this information really well and through listening to the lectures and just reading the writings and material that you’d put out, John, on two fronts, how did I connect with your work? One, I connected with it mentally, but there was a deep emotional connection that came from listening to the work, which I know is shared by a lot of the listeners and even a lot of the people that have come around the foundation. And a lot of you could call them peers, call them friends, but a lot of the people around the world, I know share that same connectivity that there’s something that resonated with me deeply that you were putting into words in such a, if I could borrow, it felt structural, functional and organized and in such a way that it could be used. So that was how I first connected with it. And obviously I got a little bit serious about a lot of the content that you had created. So I asked, could you please mentor me? And I said, for the following reasons. And to those who are out there, I think it’s one of the most important things is my, if I go back a bit further, I’m ex-military. So I don’t really come out of a business world, so to speak, I come out of a military world and I went into the business world because I have a profound love for people. I fell in love with human capability. I fell in love with how you could develop and grow people into more than what they realized they could be. So that was the fascination. And a lot of the material that I was coming across with you was now putting a lot of structure behind a lot of the work that I was already doing in the world with our organization and clients around the world. So I think that’s probably the best way to put it into perspective of when we first met. I mean, there’s been so many conversations with you, John. It’s been profound. I mean, obviously I’ve connected in with some of my other business partners just so you can meet them and where things were already going in our world. And I think the profound part of it all was that what was confronting for me, John, it was really confronting because I think I approached you not just only from a mentorship and guiding perspective, but like I said, there was a conversation I just had before this for nearly just three hours with a company from the UK. And there is such a deep ache for clarity around how do we engage people in such a way and move them in such a way that not only do they achieve commercial goals, but they actually achieve cultural and deeply personal goals. Like this is really important stuff. And a lot of people talk about it, John. I think that was my frustration. There was a lot of talk going on, but there wasn’t a lot of how to turn this from abstraction into action. And so this was something that I could see, so not just see, but hear and feel from the way you were talking and interacting was this, it was giving a lot of structure. And so that was why I had to reach out. And I know that that’s been shared among other people. Yeah, I think that’s probably where the root origin of it came from. So, and the military side of things, the reason why that was an important background for me was that coming out of a world where what you did mattered more than you realized that if you didn’t do it well, you could get people into hurt or harm or loss of life. So that type of environment, it was quite quick at educating me on how to lead and also how to function in very, you could say, distracting, very frightening situations, challenging situations where competency and character were number one. You had to lead not only with your head, but with your heart. And because I was an officer, you had to look after your men and women. That was probably what drove me into where I’ve landed today. But I think bringing your work to life has been probably one of the deepest passions that I’ve had over the last couple of years. And I’d say your work, John, because that was probably what was missing. That was why I had come into contact with material and information that I was running through teams and organizations around the world. And I didn’t know why it was working. And if anyone knows, it’s deeply frustrating when you’re doing something and you know it works very well, but it can be soul-twisting when you’re not sure why it’s working, you’ve got an idea, and it can make you feel like a fraud. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, posture syndrome, yeah. Big time. And so I had to, I’m like, you know what? I need one of the greatest minds I can get my hands on and to make sure that I’m not being a fool and I’m not just smoking my own reefer and that this is actually something that’s working. And so obviously in the last probably three years interacting with you, we’ve gone on to develop software and some systems and tools for people that we’re focusing on. How do we make this scalable? How do we make it sustainable? How do we give people back a bit of a pathway towards who they could be? But not only just what and why, but how? Because I’m a big believer of the same framework that you were sharing in one of your episodes, which is belief is not enough. You’ve got to know how. And yeah, I’ll leave it at that because I could talk for hours, John. So I’m gonna be careful. Even though this is a catch up, I just wanna make sure that I serve the audience and get the good questions from you. Sorry, everyone for that jump. We were going through the wrong camera and I wanted to change it to the better camera. So thank you so much, Tim, for that wonderful introduction. Perhaps it would be a good idea to give a more, a little bit more concrete specific take on what you do, how you go into a business and the deal with the culture and then some of the ways in which you’ve been trying to refine what you do by implementing some of the stuff we discuss and some of the stuff you’re learning. And then how that has led you, like you said, there was the work on the app and then there’s some of the current work we’re doing. Just give people a little, because I think the people, you probably piqued curiosity. What does he do? Does he go in and have tea with people? Like, what does he mean? So what’s he doing? What do you do when you go in there? Yeah, what are you actually doing? So that’s- Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the things I wanna make sure listeners get is it’s midnight where I am. So I wanna make sure everyone knows it is literally midnight. And I have been going since 6 a.m. So if I seem a little bit funky at times, please know. It is by no means, but because of my biology. If I get ranty or a bit funky, I just want listeners to know that I’m not that crazy. I’m just a little bit more crazy today because it’s at the witching hour when I usually would be in bed. But to answer the question, John, I think, look, the best way to go about it is when this all started, it started back in about 2015, 2014. I left the military out of a desire to just go take a year off to figure out who I was. So I’d spent just under a decade with the army. I loved it. You actually did service in Afghanistan, correct? Yes, yeah, I deployed overseas. And unfortunately, I had a lot of friends who deployed and may or may not, they didn’t come back. Wow. And a lot of our friends did come back who weren’t really themselves, but I was very fortunate in the sense that I didn’t have to deal with the intensity or even the craziness that a lot of those men and women had to deal with. My role and function was, I was very lucky to be in the position that I was in. And it was extremely informative with regards to the world we were dealing with at the time. But I actually enjoyed my military career. I found it very difficult at times, but what made it the diff, and this is the key distinction of where the business emerged from. I was very lucky because I had good leaders. I had people who cared about me and looked and gave me direction. And I had times I didn’t have that all the time. There were some times where I just said, you would call them lost leaders. I didn’t know what they were doing. And the only important thing for them was their ego and their career. But that’s like anything, anywhere. Those people exist everywhere and every walks of life. So I left defense and then decided that I wanted to take a year off and start a business. And I was told that I was extremely good at training, coaching and leading from one of my previous commanders. And I thought, sure, I’ll give it a crack. I don’t know what you’d do in the real world to do this. Cause I didn’t have any idea what the real world was about. I left school. I went straight into the military college where I went and got my degree. And then I went and got my commission as an officer. So I didn’t know. And so to come into the real world and then realize that you measured things on bottom line and income and revenue. And I was like, what about just getting the job done well? It was like, it was just so just an alien environment for me when I first left. So I then started to realize how frustrated people were in just the real world. And it wasn’t, and my focus on business was for no other means that to me, business was the way in which you bring value to the world and others. So it always came from a place of ecology. How do we bring value and solve problems? And what I was seeing was just deep frustration. There was despair. There was distraction. There was a lot of delusion. There was just a lot of lost people that I was noticing that they would say that they weren’t really enjoying what they were doing. They were spending five days doing it. And then they’d go on a weekend hedonistic blast for two days. And so, and I thought, well, it can’t be really a good life if you’re gonna spend five days working that you’re not really enjoying it in two days and distraction and just keep repeating that. And then I found this pattern to be quite continual and so I started to educate and learn and get in contact with as much literature as I possibly could around these things. But it led me inevitable to things like just existentialism, Spinoza, Kierkegaard, and these great minds around how to live and direct life. So the short version of it was, I’ll tell you what we do if you’re a business owner or a founder, we scale and grade your organization while removing all the people problems. But what I would tell you, John, is that we help people lead, live and love life. So one is the thing that they want, the other thing is actually what they need and desire. And so I got into this ability to quickly build rapid relationships and rapport. And then I would make the promise on what I knew I could do and I could back it because I believed in the people we were working with. So I started small and local and I got into a couple of organizations where it created quick wins for me, where leaders would give me a challenge. And then I realized the solution was always in the people. So I gave them structures and things started to work. And I’m sorry that I’m coming across vague, maybe to the audience, but I need to make something very clear. Every organization is very different. And so the questions that I’m gonna share would be questions that would be for some relevant for some not so. But what I can share is that if we just all agree on the structure that every human being is trying to get from A to B. So I’m gonna share the framework out loud on what are some of the core principles, philosophies and processes that I and myself, my business partners and some of my team members would be running when we do the work. And the first one is that people matter. So that’s non-negotiable. That every human being that we’re interacting with in an organizational sense or a work sense, regardless is important to what we’re doing. Even if people don’t, even if we get judgments or insights about people in a team that are difficult or challenging, we treat them with benefit of the doubt. Because just because they come off wrong and challenging doesn’t mean that they themselves are the problem because you’re taking the red light out of the warning area or removing the canary from the tunnel. So we’d always give people benefit of the doubt. And what’s really important is that if everyone in the organization, including the organization is trying to get from A to B, the question we need to ask is, well, does everyone know where they are? Oh, right, an orientation question, yes. And does everyone truly know where they are or does everyone know where they wanna be? And so you’ve got this organization making promises around what their purpose or their mission. And we’ve heard these words before used and they get put on walls and you have your mission, your vision, and they have these values. But yet I would ask some people, what does that mean to you? And they didn’t really quite have an answer and they said they weren’t really quite sure. And I would say, well, where’s your career going? What would you like to do? And they’d look at you like, I’ve never been asked this, but I should have been asked this. It’s like, yeah, you should have been asked this. And then it would be like, okay, let’s put those questions aside. Who do you wanna become as a great man or woman? And that was one of the most confronting questions we asked, we ask, continue to ask every human being we interact with in every work sense. Like, who do you wanna become as a great human being? Wow. Jonah, if I can share a story, there was an organization, probably in 2016, and the CEO, I know he will hear this and it’s fun to share it. There was a legacy of this company was over 40 years old. They just had their 50th anniversary recently. They were mostly blue collar, very hardworking, specialists in engineering and metalwork and it was hardcore stuff. And he approached me and said, look, I know who you are. You’ve been referred to me by a friend. How do you get people to care about what they do? How do you get people to engage and how do I, all these questions like, and this is the stuff that’s escaping, leaders know this is important, but they don’t know. Again, and I know a lot of good leaders that believe in this job, but again, they lacked the how. They didn’t have the how. So I said to him, look, I can make a promise to you but you have to let me be able to do my work or I’m not gonna be able to do it to the best of my degree. And I made it really clear that I said, we went through and we did an audit and I won’t go into detail on how we do it because we do an audit. I was told the minute I walked in that I wouldn’t last six months. They were men that were fighting in some of the areas. Like, and these aren’t, you push around kind of guys, these are heavy machinery, heavy working. They, and to their testament, regardless if they’re overweight, smoking and drinking, John, this was the joke I used to run with people. Some of these guys were in their 50s or 60s and in their right, they were successful because they were still alive. So it’s that first level of imperative, they’re alive. So they’ve done something right, even if it’s in the most non-refined way, it’s irrelevant. He’s here, she’s here and they matter because they’re part of this organization. And so we engaged them and we measure everything both on a cultural and a commercial angle. So our strategy is always, if we get the cultural element right, you’ll get the commercial outcome. Right, right, right, right. And so we then went through a process of what we’ve now, we use the term is operationalizing the culture. So how do we operationalize culture? How do we just take these deeply profound structures of our world and reality that are pervasive? And you know this, John, they are so powerful and they are so wickedly, you could say ingrained in who we are as a species that they can just seem too obvious that they disappear. So things like purpose and mission and vision, the structure around how do we close the gap between A and B for individuals and collectives? Well, the first thing we have to agree on is where are you going? Yeah, where are we going? And this is where visions matter more than people realize. So it’s not just an idea of, okay, it’s a particular state of the future, which it is. It’s also an orientation, which it is. But in the definition by which we would use a vision, it has to be, you have to be able to answer in a way it can be so big that it could go beyond your lifetime, but so small that you could do it today. Oh, interesting. Interesting. So really meaning in life question. Yeah, it had to be because we would postulate to these founders or CEOs and they’d look at you and they go, well, this particular company was, we wanna be the thing in engineering and Southeast Asia and all these types of things. And I just said to him, I said, do you reckon that’s gonna wake your guys up in the morning? And he said, well, does it matter? I own the company. And I said, interesting. So let me test it. And I went around and I came back and I said, not one guy thinks this is really where they’re going. Where they’re going though matters. He goes, but why do I need to know where they’re going? Now, and I want everyone to know that this particular individual is an amazing leader. He didn’t have the tools. So you can hear people make flippin’ or kind of low marks. It’s not really always a reflection of their, as an entire person. This is, there’s a gap here in their knowledge and in their own meaning structure. So long story short, we said, well, if you’ve got a clear vision, you can start to engage in why people are turning up and who you actually wanna have at this particular table or organization. So the selective criteria is that this is the destination that we wanna go. But what we stitched into it, John, was that, yes, this is where the organization wants to go, but we also brought into it where the individual wanted to go. Right, right, right. And so what happens is when people start to see their future embedded in what they’re building, they wanna be part of it. And this is the beauty of having a clear vision. And the challenge is the vision, the rule of a vision for us is that it has to be something that you can say within two to three words. This organization went from being, like their vision statement was this big waffly thing. And then they had this big mission statement was hugely waffly. And then they had a purpose. And they had to look to their credit. They had the right idea, but it was, sorry, they had the right structure, but it wasn’t synthesized in such a way that it could be useful for the person that was actually meant to be using it, which was the everyday person. So we broke it down and their vision was just ended up to always be better. Wow. That was their vision. And this is an organization that, I’m fine. And I need to say this with just like love and respect for the craft and all those things. We’re really good at what we do because it wasn’t just a measure of the growth of the organization, but the meaning that came out of these men and women’s mouths for what had just changed and happened over the last couple of years, looking forward to coming to work, enjoying what they were doing, engagement went through the roof, revenue went through the roof, profit, rework. So we grew this organization from a couple of million to many years of millions. And, but the profound important part was just, how was it to work in the area again? Was there life back in the workforce? This is the most important part of any organization is its people. And you hear this, that what was frustrating me was that, well, I went, well, if people are the most important part of any institutional organization, why is it after so many years with all the science and all these amazing ones, are we not getting this bit right? We’ve got huge displacement with regards to people with where they wanna put their time and attention. There’s huge levels of disengagement. We’ve got huge levels of distraction and despair going on for people. You’ve got unfortunately the three little acronym of suicide, anxiety and depression. And then not social media isn’t to blame. It’s part of the culprit, but it’s not the keystone and why it’s increasing. And you gotta go, well, what’s the system and the hardware we’ve got in place? So we then took this team and we put the, this is the narrative structure. We gave people an idea of where am I going? Why am I here and how are we going to do this? So this was, you’re now re-recruiting this amazing workforce back into action around where they wanna go. But then the next question is, okay, well, we all agree now on where we are. We’ve got our map, we’ve got our compass. I feel like I’m part of something. I feel like I’m part of a team. Now, how do we actually do that? And this is where people know this, but they don’t know how to actually use them. And this is values. Right. Like values are not what you talk about. Values are what you do. Yes. Yes. And so we went, well, what are the values that we need to aspire and actually engage with every single day? How do we convert mission into action every day so that we can achieve the purpose and vision of the organization? But it’s not just about the organization because if people can’t see themselves being part of it and building themselves in it, they won’t stay. Right, right, right. So we would put that value structure in place and all of a sudden it became very simple, clear, concise code for how people would build their character. They would show them how they can build the habits that were required to reinforce the world that they wanted to move into. And it gave them clear practices and actions, John. Right, right, right. And so this to me was when I started doing all this and one of the things I wrote down, which was probably the core part of the work we were doing is how can I see more deeply and clearly than I did before? Because as a leader, you can’t be in all places at once and at any minute, if you think you can solve all the problems yourself, you’re a fool. This comes back to things like foolishness versus bullshit. And this is happening across, you sent me the document around bullshit in organizations, the bullshit game. And if I bring us back to a very real conversation that we could even just leave with the listeners, it’s like, just think for a minute, if you had a map about where you were and where you are, where are you and where are you going? I get this is deeply important because it isn’t about the organization, it’s about the people that make up the organization. And at the same time, people are more important than they realize. A lot of the innovation and magic that comes out of the meaning making of the world we can all have and share comes from each person that joins in the game. Right, right, right. Yeah, so hopefully this is making sense. No, no, I mean, so much so. I mean, this is why I love working with you. I mean, it’s clear that you’re sort of bumping up into an aspect of the meeting crisis within the workplace. And then you’re trying to get people engaged with meaning in life, with purpose, with mattering, with connection to themselves, to each other, to the world, right? You’re engaging perspectival and participatory knowing, right? You’re doing all of this stuff and you’re really working on, how do I take it from the very abstract down to the very concrete? But how does the very concrete fit well into the very abstract, the up and down flow? Like you’re just doing all of this stuff. And John, that was when I was going through your meeting process lectures. I think that was, I think you, I don’t know if you’d completed all of it by 2019. I don’t remember. I was done by February 2019. I started releasing them then, yeah. Right, okay, good. So you were done and then I, yeah. Cause I just remember that there was, so a couple of things for the, for like your relevancy, relevance realisation is at the core of all the work we were doing. And I just thought, when you’re dealing with like, when you’re dealing with the issue of the meaning crisis, or you’re dealing with meaning in life, like the issue of how do I cultivate and create meaning in life and really truly live and lead a life that matters and love life. Like this isn’t just some, it isn’t just some poetic. Yes, yes, exactly. This is like a truly, like, there’s a way, there’s a way that you can show up in reality that you can do a deal with your own destiny. Like this is not a joke. This is like, you’re here now. Maybe you’ll come back. Maybe you’ve got a different belief system. Maybe you won’t, I don’t know. But what I do know is that if you do, if you show up and in a particular way, even when it’s not accurate, but you’ve done it in such a manner that you’ve given it your best in the moment and you continue to practise that as best you can, life does turn around and work through you and not against you. And we know this to be true. Like this is just, this is a pattern we can see through our species and through history, anthropology and culture. And so the reason why there’s an emphasis on culture is because that’s the collective arena at the cognitive level on how we distribute our challenges and do proper problem formulation. Wow, beautifully said, Tim. That was just a beautiful sentence. My gosh, just want to say for that for a sec. That was beautiful. Sorry for interrupting. That was just beautiful. Keep going. Yeah, but I just, I think that that to me is what sat at the core of my fascination with all the work that you were doing. And I said to my business partners, I said, look, I never went into business to make money, which was probably a big flaw of mine. I wasn’t commercially driven. I really wasn’t. I had a very no fear attitude. When I say no fear attitude, I mean, there used to be a brand that I loved as a kid. It was No Fear. And it used to have this joke, which is the man with the most money who dies still dies. And I just, I just loved it, to be honest. If you weren’t living on the edge, you were taking up too much space. It was these little kind of jokes, but I thought there’s something true about them. And I believe that to be true about the human condition with people. And I thought, why I fell in love with the work of what you do and also, and I believe I’m definitely a neoplatonist. After going through a lot of material, I was like, this makes sense. This makes sense. This makes sense. Of course there’s a realm beyond this current realm. Well, how and where could these things be coming from? If I show up in a particular way, reality and I can get, we can get into an engagement of co-creativity and things come out of it. And we know this to be true with our close relationships, with ourselves, with others, with the world. And if we know that there’s something beyond the current space, what are we betting on? What’s the potential that we’re doing a dance with? It isn’t just mechanical. There’s a manner in which, and this is where the mechanics and the manner, we’ve got mechanics down pat. This is KPIs. This is business structure. And this is element of strategy. But what we haven’t worked out is how do we keep the spirit and the fire of the human being sustained? Yes. And I said carefully, but you’ve got science and then you’ve got this kind of religion that’s not a religion kind of side of things. Or we could just say that the church and the religious process and systems in place did their best in a way and there was the science, but there’s a disconnect. And there’s a way in which you can actually bring them together because spirituality, like I’ve had a couple of people, I’m sorry if I’m going off tangent. Yeah, yeah, keep going. You can, this idea of divinity of what is sacred, what is special, what is profound. And I think I shared this with you when we had a private catch up a while ago. I said, when people start to just get some sort of idea of who they are in the chain of events and sequences that brought them to being in this world right now, if you’re alive, which is probably most of the people listening this, of course, you know. If you take a step back and just realize that you’re at the very forefront of your entire lineage. Yeah, yeah. Like just for one, like, you know, a generation is between 30 and 40 years. It’s one generation. And if we use just pure maps, we go back 10 generations and we have a look and we think visually what that means. It’s over 2000 people across 10 generations just for you and I to be here. Wow. Now that is a massive feat as a project or a process that we are engaging in. And for what? It’s not just so that we can entertain ourselves and blast ourselves off with like just distraction. It, there’s something that drives us as a species. And I think this is where there’s a lot of disease, not disease. Well, yeah, there’s a disease and there’s a fair bit of sickness going on that people are aware of. There’s cultural sickness and the opportunity to update it and remedy it actually comes from each individual, including everyone who’s listening to this now. It’s not, it’s not up to, it’s not actually up to the leaders to figure this out. It’s up to each of us to do the part we can play. And that to me is the core critical part of waking up any great team organization and apply it to your own family unit, apply it to yourself. But my emphasis on work is that you, and I mean this with respect to everyone, you don’t get to choose not to work. You don’t get to choose not to get engaged in the world. Like even if you don’t like it, if you don’t like it, get involved and do something about it, you know? But don’t, it’s like if you wanna, if you wanna change the game, you’ve got to understand the game. Like if you wanna get in, if you wanna change anything in life, you’ve got to understand life. And then, you know, you start to realize that, you know, at the core of wisdom or being wise, John, and it’s not a sexy term, but it’s a feature to me that is at the cornerstone of any wise person is that it’s not that they know everything which we know is the superficial frame. Wise people realize they don’t know anything, but it’s accountability. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So it’s being accountable. So if people start to realize that there’s basic things, and I mean, this is gonna hop to maybe some of Jordan’s stuff, but just basics, there’s just basics that we can do that if we stayed accountable to and remedied, life starts to lift for us. We start to see differently. We start to engage with reality in a deeper context. And it’s reciprocal. You know, this is this reciprocal opening or reciprocal narrowing, you know? And if we start to practice, what is it that opens up for life for us? We’ll notice that that isn’t always the easy stuff. And if we start to engage with that work continually, we find that, oh, I can lead, live and love a life that’s worth living. And I can actually start to explore my creativity if I am, or explore reading in the world’s literature if I have time, or I can explore what it means to be in a passionate relationship. Or maybe I just explore the fact that there’s deep work that I need to do as an individual so that I can learn to show up in this crazy arena. But to me, because it’s so deeply individual to each person, this is my purpose for me personally, it’s a deep element that each person holds and brings. And part of any organization is to engage that purpose so that the mission can come to life in action to achieve the vision. And to me, that’s, you know, I’d love to say that it was a theory, John. It’s not though, because I’ve had to do it for the last seven years. And with organizations in the hundreds and in the thousands and then I think that’s what I got overwhelmed with you. And I thought it feels like it’s so frustrating. Like there’s this amazing simple structure that if we put in place, it can change people’s lives rapidly. I was smiling when you talked about accountability because I think it’s John Roos and he was talking about logos where we get logic and reason and speech and word from. But he says one of the best translation is giving an account, being accountable. Yes. And I just thought about that and that part of what Socratic rationality was, was not just being able to organize things, but to be accountable to them and accountable for them in an important way. I thought you really put your finger on something there that I hadn’t connected. So thank you for that. That’s a very good bringing that in. And I like that notion that way you sort of, you’ve got sort of these two poles of accountability and aspiration and they’re playing off against each other. And like you said, you want them to get into a reciprocal opening if possible rather than a reciprocal narrowing. Well, this was, I think one of the, I didn’t get to say it at the start but I was gonna say that one of the amazing gifts of being able to interact with you is that I think a lot of listeners get this and this is not to blow smoke. You can give structure to a lot of things that can evade most people’s senses. And that’s the power I think of the information and that you could say the mentoring and the tutorship and the teaching and the training that you’re giving people. And I think that it’s also part of why you’ve become such an important figure in the current discussion but also with where we’re going with the foundation because I’m all for the, I’m all for education but what I’m really for is action. Like I’m really practical and this is where the simplicity and a lot of the stuff that we were doing just made sense. It’s just, it doesn’t need to be complicated. It doesn’t need to be hyper sophisticated and we can get lost in it. But something that I loved about what you kept bringing back to the forefront was that it doesn’t matter what we talk about, it comes back to a set of practices. It comes back to a set of tools and this blew my mind because I was like, to my business partners, I was like, hey, this is a guy from the other world who’s doing exactly the same thing. He’s talking about practices, he’s talking about actions, he’s talking about tools and ways of being. These are all the things that we bring to organizations. And I think, I still remember the day when you were talking to Eamonn and Derek and you were like, people actually buy this. Yeah, man, they really do. Like they really, really do. And that to me was like with the magic that can be brought about and will be brought about with the foundation is how do we not only bring more of, you know, and I mean this, like how do we bring more of you and give people access, not to you in a direct sense, but access to what has been an intense and immense mission of view of your life’s work so that people can access that in a deeply useful and utilitarian context so that they can use these tools to transform their life. They can take part as an agent in the arena. They can start to realize, you know, and the landscape, the salience of what happens to their reality when people engage with the work and is profound. You know, what becomes relevant, what becomes irrelevant, what was once an obstacle that now becomes an objective and what now is a tool instead of just an unknown. And these are all such critical gifts that I know that even, you know, speaking with Ryan, you know, and he, you know, Ryan Button. Yeah, Ryan Button, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and just such a beautiful man in mind and just, you know, what you gave him, you know, like, and I think, man, you know, like John’s done this for me, he’s done this for Ryan, you know, I look at, you know, Chris, Chris has got to be one of my favorite new humans. Like he is- He’s the master creator. Yes, yes. Yeah, like he just is such, like, like his last name is unreal, but he’s, the way he works. Like, so to me, none of this happens by chance. It’s happening because there is this, like you said, this is Kairos, there’s a great coming together and turning. And there’s a lot of, you could say pieces, I wouldn’t even call them fragments. There’s a lot of pieces that are realizing it, hey, there’s a structural functional and organizational way that we can self-organize as a community across the globe and put a lot of this incredible work into practice in real time and return to what it means to be doing the middle way, the way in which we can be on the right path, being the right player in our world, living out our story and taking part in this great, this joint journey. And I think that’s probably the core of like, when I see things like the Viveki Foundation, or I see even the information coming out, that doesn’t mean that people turn away from everything else. I think people should still pour their hearts and minds into other information they’re absorbing. Of course, I don’t know, of course. I just feel like there’s a great calling to people at the moment where I wanna put that emphasis around the idea that you don’t get to, you have a choice to work, and you do have a choice to figure out where you can work. And maybe in the short term, you don’t have the freedom of movement that you would like. And I know that’s difficult, because everyone’s different, different age, different backgrounds, different… But even with all that variation, there is an opportunity not only to look up and aspire, there is actually the opportunity that, in sort of just focusing on elevation, you can focus on integration. So if you wanna go up, you need to go in. And these are these timeless themes of, and if I can, if we’re having these types of myself and a few others were doing this with, to me, it has to be able to be done with everyday people, people that don’t understand some of the terms and people that we may reference and look to and lead to. I mean, I’ve been pouring my heart into reading Michael Polanyi, Polanyi? How do you say his last name? Michael, like personal knowledge, meaning… Oh, Polanyi, Polanyi. Polanyi, yeah, right. And just like, I’m reading it going, this is, why is this not a number one seller? Like, this is, like, and I’m like, oh, cause it’s not six step shortcuts or some, and I’m not, I don’t wanna pay off that stuff cause it has its utility, but there’s an opportunity and I wanna keep bringing it back. There’s an opportunity, I know that will come out of the foundation, but there’s an opportunity now for people that even with just the basics, thinking about this map and compass idea, I’ve shown this with Chris is that the reason why the map as an idea is so important is because even when I was in the military, there was a deep respect for the enemy. Now, I don’t mean that as if I had an enemy, but we had to still know who was red, who was blue, there was still an idea. There was always a deep respect for those things that we may have to challenge or oppose one day. And that came from the idea that even the other side is human. So there were rules to war, there are rules. And I won’t get into it because I got out of it for many, many reasons. I fell in love with people. So I realized I wanted to move out of this kind of practice and the ship and into a different one real quick. But I realized that there was a reason why the map, not only as an idea or a metaphor was so important for people, but because if I have a map and you have a map, John, even if we don’t agree or we are in different places, we agree that there’s an arena that we have to be in. Like there’s a terrain to be traversed. There’s a place that you stand, I stand and that we could be going. And so that’s why the map is important and why the compass is different, but just as important is because there are forces outside of you that are always working on you. The only reason a compass works is because of the immensity of the things and forces outside of you that actually control and direct your life. Now, I’m not saying do or don’t have free will. What I am saying is that everyone has a reason to be here. And I know this brings up other discussions, people go, well, how do you know? And I said, well, there’s a pre-knowing and it’s always in the proof. If you show up to a particular place and you know you have a reason and purpose to be there and it gets picked up by other people very quickly and there’s a shared sense of huge indirection. So this is why people even in a basic everyday sense not just waiting for stuff to come out from a foundation or anything like that. It’s just asking themselves, who do you wanna become as a great man or woman? Like, who do you, and the answer isn’t gonna be easy but you’re gonna have to sit on the edge of your bed and think about it and ask the questions and be okay, you’re gonna get insights that you don’t like. Yes, this is very Socratic what you’re doing right now. Very Socratic. Okay, yes. I just think it’s a rule, like basic laws of longevity. Like what feels good may not be good. Yeah, yeah. So I’ve got to, if we wish to use like maybe just four basic steps in the laws of longevity, it’s like, okay, maybe what I’m doing doesn’t feel good but is it good? Okay, that’s the first step. So maybe I need to just ignore step one, is it feel good? Just for now, in this case, is it good? And it seems it is good. And is it good for others? And is it sustainable? And where most people go wrong and not because they’re not good people but just because of things of salience and over-practicing a particular mode of being that is pathologized how they can show up in the world, there’s still an opportunity to disrupt that system because what can, like you’ve said many, many times before is like the system that can help us create our wildest dreams can create our wildest nightmares. What works for me? Yeah. So there’s an opportunity to go, what is it that I’m doing in my life that may feel good but isn’t good? And what is it that may not feel good but is good? And is good for others and is sustainable? And it is insane, John, to see what people come up with. And to me, that was the magic. And I’m telling people now, like, you want the secret remedy for how I’ve built my own organization. It was literally through the methods of ancient dialogue. I was literally going and having powerful conversations. Yeah, real logos, through and through, yes, yeah. And people would look at you and they’d go, why is it that you find, I’ve been asked this thing that I’ve been thinking for 10 or 15 years. And I’m like, okay, let’s no longer wait. But what if it doesn’t? And there’s fears, there’s the fears and there’s the uncertainty and the doubts that come up. But I’m like, if you’re not feeling any of those in what you’re doing, you’re probably not going the right way or doing anything important. And your life is the most important meaning project you will ever be cast into. And I love this idea of thrownness. Like, you get to choose your name, where you were born, the makeup. Heidegger’s notion of being thrown into the world, yes. That’s it. I love, is it Benita Roy? Like she had this amazing thing that she shared once. And for those who don’t know who Benita Roy is, absolutely worth looking at. Definitely, definitely. Benita is one of the people who has an amazing ecology of practices. I’ve gotten to know Benita when she was at the respond retreat. I highly recommend seeking out Benita. She to me is like, amongst all the gifts I think you bring to the world. She is an amazing woman and an amazing mind. Yes, very much so. She said something that I thought was beautiful, which was for all the work that biology and nature can do and bring to you, you still have to do your part, which is why you’re here. Because nature can’t do that for you. And that’s where this notion of gods, this idea of engaging with the powers that we have, I understand why people get nihilistic and they get depressed. And I mean, we talked about what the opposite of meaning is depression and then push it to its extreme, it’s suicide. I mean, I’ve got a dark humor because a lot of the work, you have to be able to laugh at some of the nasty shit that occurs in people’s lives in such a light-minded way without making fun of it. They can lift the spirit again and realize that this is not just a, it’s the great comedy. And there was a statistic I think I shared with you back in the day with, I think it’s the, the top 10 reasons for loss of life in the world are all, nearly seven or eight of them are all lifestyle related. Right, right, right. It means that most people are ending, meeting their end in such a fashion that was undesirable and in their control. And that to me, I go, okay, well, that’s also a structural issue because not only they’ve been pulled off course for whatever reason, they were pulled away from who they could be, which means that we never got to experience the potentiality of what that person’s promise was in this world. Right. And so that was the idea of when we lose people, we’re not losing people, but we’re losing aspects of our future. Yeah, that’s one of the things that I like, that the way you have that, just tremendous appreciation for the potential of human beings and what that could mean. Yeah, and that’s not an abstract idea for you, Tim. That’s palpable. That’s like, it’s visceral for you. It moves you profoundly. And I think that’s just an amazing virtue and virtuosity that you have. And just like, because of your profound love for that within human beings and your deep and powerful desire to draw it out, that’s one of the things I really admire about you. Well, John, thank you. I mean, I get, I’m continually, I think I’m 36, 37. I can’t remember. I think I’m one of those two ages. When I, I think I just said, I finally have two children of my own. And for those who are looking to become parents, just know that it’s okay if you don’t want to. Like, it’s one of those things where I actually didn’t want to be a parent because I was like, I love my books and my selfishness around my own children. But it’s one of those amazing endeavors that when you become a parent, you’re like, wow, I never knew love the way this love is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is, like you, and it’s, and the reason I bring that up is because if we think about your four types of knowing, John, and I think they are so important. Like I was teaching that directly. I was like, this, you know, John Vivek, you need to know this. And I was teaching, I had a room full of founders and owners and CEOs from all walks of recovery. We had massive coffee company, engineering firm. We had a financial firm, we had a tech company. And I explained to them these four types of knowing that you were teaching. And they all went, holy crap. This makes so much sense. We’re making the big propositional statements around how the future could be and people wanna be part of it. But we never really got below the neck with regards to, how do I help people see the world that could be? How do I give them the procedure and the manner in which that they need to engage and practice this? And then eventually the fruit of it all is that they get to participate in this great engagement. And to me, that’s the idea of putting the parenting aside because that is, you can only know what it means to become a parent when you cross the threshold of becoming a parent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don’t know what, you know, just the idea of the vampire, like you use it. Yeah, totally possible. That’s it, yeah. And I would say the same thing applies to, there’s a threshold in who we become. And we know that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And we know that. But this idea of, and I don’t mean the threshold of becoming a hero and then attaining it and then it’s a fixed structure. I mean, there’s just very simply, there’s really two modes of being. Like, and I don’t mean this in a really scientific direct, let’s go write a paper on it. I’m just going, if we look at this idea of the divine double, and the- Oh, okay, yeah. Yes, and thank you. By the way, please keep doing that because there’s things that I’ve read and learned and then I- Yeah. I have a way of talking it, which is good because I need those, almost like memory tags. So that idea of the fact that there’s a mode in which, if I am and I show up in a particular way, things reveal themselves. That’s true. But if I also move into the other mode, not only do other things reveal themselves that are actually not the things I want, the things that I do want now are hidden. Right, right, right, right. Yes, I get what you’re saying. Yes, yes. And this is where, this is the relevancy engine and the salience, the process of constantly, and people starting to realize. You go, you go. The biblical notion of hardening your heart, which is exactly that. Yeah. I had this, look, I had a discussion with a man who’s very deeply, he’s very Christian. And even though he knows I’m not, I may have a religious instinct, but I’m definitely pre-religious. I don’t know what that, like I’m- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like if that, yeah. And he, and I had this discussion around, he goes, well, you tend to have these notions that fit very well into the Christian world and the way it is. And I said, I don’t know if I want to put a label on it. And I said to him, I said, my notion of God, if you want to, if you want to go there, is everything we can’t explain, understand, completely comprehend, but it is the reason that we’re here. And if you really just have a look around you, and it’s not just some flippant idea. If you let people think, like the idea of a mandarin, I know that there was a practice that monks would do this with their students, take the mandarin, hold the mandarin, smell it, notice what you’ve never noticed before about it, and come in contact with things you’ve never actually come in contact with, and now peel the mandarin and notice. And they would say that these students would have these profoundly intimate moments with just the bloody mandarin. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. You’re peeling it and they’d be noticing the spray and the sunlight hitting it, and then the smell, and they would be breathing, they’d notice the breath, and then they’d notice their hands, and they’d notice the world, and it would be this opening. But not only just an opening, but this focusing in of what they were holding. And this all while, this is the system and hardware we’ve always had access to, but we’ve never really fully engaged with. And so why life isn’t something that’s just out there, but in here, if we engage the system and the software and what we’ve got as functions that help us engage with the features that we have to bear, we can start to really learn who we really are and engage with what we are as a species. And it’s not just, and I have to keep coming back to it, it’s deeply practical in the sense of here and now. You’re going in and you’re transforming, this is not like somebody rambling at a party or a bar or pub or something. You go into businesses and you transform them radically and they become significant economic successes and they also become cultural successes for the people in the organization. I think you are massively successful in what you do and you saw it after. So I just wanna emphasize that for people. Tim is very lyrical and he’s very poetic and he has this capacity for just weaving philosophy into practice in this powerful way. And you may think, oh, well, this is just some guy. Yeah, talking crap. No, Tim, this is, Tim, wherever the real world is that people always refer to get back to the real world, Tim is in the midst of it and he’s one of the leaders in it and he is successful in it in bringing about transformations of organizations and individuals on a reliable and regular basis. That’s what next level does. And so, I mean, you cannot dismiss Tim as somebody who is just blowing smoke. Whatever, you may disagree with him, that’s fine, but you can’t dismiss him. This is as real as it gets. Yeah, and John, I think something that I wanna emphasize is that I’m absolutely open to disagreements because this was my challenge and the reason why I reached out to you is that I don’t know everything. I really don’t. Like, I try to explain to people that when you’re really following your calling in life, it doesn’t just come with this stalwart attitude where you just don’t feel anymore. I mean, some of the most challenging moments I’ve ever had have been in the last couple of years. I’ve had to make huge financial decisions. Building this technology has cost a lot. And for what reason? Again, I think what’s really critical in all of this is that there was a calling to action with regards to what we can bring to bear. And I try to really remind people that I’m actually no better than most of the listeners on this, listening to this. I’m as human as you. I feel as much as they do. I have goals and dreams. But what I worked out very, very quickly before I even turned what I do into a business and a structural or a function was that even as an individual, you can have an impact on not only your experience, but those around you in the most profound, real, enduring and tangible ways. And there’s nothing wrong with the fact that you’ve got to make mistakes, but the biggest mistake people make is not giving themselves a fair go. And this is people, and I think what really people are most scared of is that they realize that if they share what they truly are with the world, that the world will take it. And that is true, but the world will take you in in the end, no matter what. You can’t, death and death. I think that this is one of the kind of, waking up, growing up kind of ideas that it’s actually never too late. I have, relevant or not, some of the most beautiful conversations I’ve been having ever recently, I’ve been with a friend of mine who I’m trying so hard to get on a podcast with me. He is a high functioning schizophrenic. Oh, that’s a challenging one. Yeah, challenging life. Like you look at this man and you go, Jesus, that guy’s had a hard life. He has, he’s had schizophrenia since he realized when he was about 14. He engaged with drugs very quickly in order to calm his mind, heroin, meth, at a young age of 15. So this guy’s in his late 60s. So he did this when he was 15. He never knew his father. He was abused continually. He got into crime. He’s covered in head to tattoos. He’s got the most pinstripe, like his eyes, when he look at, he looks through, it’s like full on. But what fascinated me about this man was he had this beautiful way of speaking and engaging and he was calm. And I thought, you don’t look how you sound. And he laughed and we got talking. He’s got three master’s degrees. He’s doing his PhD. He said, Tim, we all have a choice. And he goes, I only realized when I got to about 48, which was 20 years ago for him, that it was never too late and I could still be the man. This is a man that I only met a couple of years. And I use that just purely as a story that as much as we look at social media and we engage in these information channels, which can sometimes open us up, but also narrow us down. Don’t always try to remember the fact that the real world is here and now, and that you’re in where you are, where you need to be, or you would be, if you’re not where you need to be, you would be somewhere else already. So if you wanna realize that the next position you’d like to be in might be improved or not, you’ve still got to own where you are, even if it’s not comfortable. And this is the, I look at your journey, John, in what I mean when I look at your journey, I mean, in the sense of looking at where you started, what got you interested in the fields that you’re in and the journey you’ve gone through. And only you and God, whoever that may be, will know that that hasn’t been a smooth ride, that hasn’t been a… Like, do you know what I mean? It’s when I, and it’s that idea of starting to realize how things come to be is through this engagement with what is challenging and difficult. And you don’t have to do it alone because the more often you do this, you actually end up finding people that are similar to you along the way. Totally agree with that, yeah. And this is amazing, it’s amazing. Yeah, and this is why I say to people like, yes, I have an emphasis on business. Even though I myself in the team, I’m not the business strategist or the coach, I’m really more the human leadership culture and dynamics of like, how do we get people to do and be a particular way? There is this profound emergence that happens with people. I mean, I’ll give you an example. We run just a week ago, a financial team of five senior financial guys. And I said to them, and this is for anyone, like, this is a great cheat sheet to something that we do. And people will go, oh, it can’t be that easy, but it is. And we had this idea that you have to listen to someone so deeply that you disappear. And we would actually at the time when we were training other people to do this, senior managers and leaders, we say, when they’re speaking, pretend that they’re actually playing music. When they’re speaking, there’s actually music. Yes, yes. That’s been really useful as an idea for leaders. So when you’re listening, listen to them as if you’re listening to music, you’ll notice that there’s things in the backdrop. There’s things in the foreground. Yes, yes, yes. You’ll hear certain words that will be very obvious cues. There’ll be gullies. There’ll be words that aren’t emphasized. And so you’ve got everything that you need. You don’t need to tell them anything, but you do need to get quite curious and ask questions. And then they will tell you everything else you need to know. And so we- This is so socratic. And the musicality of how people make sense, John Roussin’s notion. This is what I mean about it. See what Tim does. He takes these ideas and then he just turns them into like, okay, now let’s do this as we’re interacting. It’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. But okay, so I want to make people, and if you want to understand it, it’s frightening to come in contact with this mode, because I thought my biggest fear, John, which I think was a fear that you and I shared about what I was doing, was that it was locked to my personality. Because I know that I can be- Well, as a scientist, when Tim approached me, I said, you’re having all this success, but is it dependent on you and your charisma? As a scientist, I wanted to say, can we remove you from the equation and the process still work? I wasn’t trying to criticize Tim at all. I was just asking a scientific question. But I believe that I needed that. I needed that. Because I think, I know people will get this. When you’re going to commit to something, it isn’t like, okay, let’s do this for one year. I was going, I’m going to do this for the rest of my life. So I need to make sure that I’m not just blindly agreeing with my own stuff. I need people with the ability to call bullshit, see me clearly. And I believe that’s what a real friend does. And a person who keeps the cares will call you on what they’re saying, not to hurt or harm, but to actually hopefully pull you back into place. And so we had these conversation. And so these five particular men, they were all men. And there was one female. They don’t talk like we talk. So I’m not saying that that’s any better or worse, but they just don’t. And they are very, very human. They run a financial firm. But there was an obviousness in the room. And I asked them, I said, so what are you guys, what are we just noticing about what’s in the room? And some of them laughed. And we said, oh, some people are having a harder time in life than others. And I thought, isn’t that profound? Some people are having a harder life than others. And so I said, well, how about this? I’ll take you through this process. This was the free P process that I had invented that I needed to test with you. I was like, hey, this is the tool. And I got them to run it. And we just started with the visioning part. And I said, so what’s the vision of the company? And they said, oh, it’s to experience life. And that’s the vision of the company. So they went away from this financial institution idea. And I cannot, you know, I wish, and anyone listening, thinking, oh, we’ll just clean our vision up and we’ll just make money. I said, sure. Do you get better at music, listening to music? No, you get good at music when you play music. So the idea of having a vision is so that you can engage in that orientation, mentally, emotionally, energetically, rhetorically. So we just started with that. And so the vision was to experience life. And I asked him, what does that mean to him? And we already knew the answer that we impacted. But I asked the other seniors, I said, what did he just say? Listen to what he said. And he said, you know, to experience life means to spend time with the people I love. That’s enough, that’s heaps. And then I said, what are some questions we can ask him? And they said, oh, and they just looked at him. And I said, guys, you’ve been working with this man for three to four years. Like ask him some questions. And one of them asked him a great question. And it was, who are the people you care and love about? And he goes, my daughters, I love my daughters. And he said, how old? And I said, ask another question. And he said, how old are they? And he told them, and I said, keep asking. What are their names? What are their ages? I said, notice that he can tell you how tall, how long their hair are. He can describe these two little beautiful people to you. Now ask him where he’s at on his journey with achieving spending time with them. And he said that he feels like he’s about a three out of a 10. So I said, if the company’s vision is to help people experience life, but yet we’ve got an individual in the team as a senior manager and leader, but their experience of their own life is as low as that. Not because it’s bad, but because there’s room for potential engagement. I said, are we getting the full force of what this person can bring to bed? And the answer is no. So they had this profound insight. They all went, you know what? It’s funny, we’ve all known this, but we’ve not been sure how to bring up this conversation because it gets a bit complicated. I went, so what you’re all saying is is you just like some structure and how, but the rest is there for you to have a conversation. So we left it with them and probably about, and we’ve been working with this team for a couple of years. These, but there’s been new people that have come in. So this was a new process we’d been running with them because of other work that had to be done. And the long short of it was that these particular gentlemen turned around and they said, it was so interesting, the insights and challenges of the other became clarity and gifts to me. And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, I realized that there was an opportunity for me at home to be a particular way with my relationships or even myself. And what Daniel said was, Daniel was one of the gentlemen in the room, he mentioned that he was spending time with his parents differently because of the work that we were doing. And I said, I said, guys, notice that nothing we’re talking about has everything to do with work. And by no means are we saying that we just come together and talk about life’s problems. That’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is there’s a deeply structural conversation that’s going on where people are invited to be vulnerable in a very deeply authentic way that is in a safe manner where people can actually work on their clockwork so that they can figure out, oh, I’m moving and being in the right shape and manner in what I’m doing. And so I can actually turn the clock back and look at this engineering team as an example that I was talking about at the start of the conversation, John, this is a workforce of just, there were over a hundred men. And this is four or five years on, one of their senior managers said to me only recently, he said, it’s like, he goes, I’m having the most powerful conversations and they’re easy to have with the people I’m working with so much so that my relationship with my partner has increased. The relationship with my, and this particular one of the guys I was working with, he didn’t have a good relationship with his father. Now I’m not saying that this will solve those problems. What I am saying is that it invites the ability for those things to bring resolution because you’ve now got a way and being. So that to me was deeply profound because if we flip the opposite, what’s happening in most organizations or teams is there isn’t any clear direction. There isn’t, there’s an idea that usually one or two people have that isn’t shared very concretely or captivatingly. There isn’t really any, there’s values, or potentially there are values, but those values haven’t been operationalized in such a manner that everyone can use them. And there’s no clear standards of how I use them every day. And so there’s in the absence of those types of those structures, John, there’s an emphasis and heaviness that comes with the mechanical side of the commercial side. So, and this is where you start to realize that a lot of the answers in what the suffering and challenges that organizations are having will not be found in their strategy or their KPIs or mechanics. It’ll be found in the manner in which they engage and utilize their people. And this was, we talk about belief structure and how structures, belief we look at the perception, the action and the will of the individual. But if we look at the how structure, there’s three things that are non-negotiable that you have to have in the Western world if you wanna actually be successful. And that’s knowledge, network and capital. But if you don’t have one of them, you must have one of them to help the other two. But when I say capital, I’m not even thinking about cash. I’m not thinking about money. I’m thinking about cognitive ability. That is the number one capital that is not being utilized within family units and teams and organizations is the cognitive capacity of the individual. Is it being brought to bear? Because that is actually where the magic happens. Neural networks, culture, it’s the first, this is something you talk about in the meeting crisis. This is that the first major neural network that we had or system of that type was culture. So culture is a technology. It is the technology that brought everything about that we have today. And if, yeah, anyway. I’m sorry, Kim, we gotta bring this to the close. I have to go to another meeting. Well, you and I talked for hours and your eloquence and your enthusiasm and your sincerity and your authenticity and your competence are all, I think readily apparent. And we’ll talk again, but I wanna give you just a very brief final word before we close things out. Oh, look, John, I wanna say thank you, mate, because there’s still an amazing, there’s an amazing journey of work and just a great adventure ahead that I think a lot of people will eventually be able to engage with that we’re gonna help bring your, and I mean magic, we’re gonna help bring more of your magic to the world in a much more accessible, tangible, real way that people can keep and help them discover and aspire who they really are thanks to a lot of the work that you’ve brought about. So yeah, being part of that mission and journey is deeply important to me. And I know this talk has been, we’ve been trying to get this talk going for like six to eight months. So I appreciate the perseverance and support was making it happen. So thank you. Well, this won’t be our last one, that’s for sure. Thank you so much, my good friend. Oh, mate, thank you. And have a wonderful day. I’m going, it’s now 1.30 in the morning. I’m gonna go to bed. You have a good sleep, my friend. Take care.