https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=bPvddHNPRoI
And I, you know, part of what estuary for me is about from a church perspective is that churches, you know, church has to continue to do what church does, but there’s been a there’s been a golf between the church and the culture. And there are a lot of fundamental misunderstandings about what church is and what churches for. Yeah. And, and there’s a lot of, you know, given, given the history of church in the West and perhaps to the east in the eastern church as well. There’s a lot of anxiety among non church people about churches at a cult. Is it a is it something that’s tyrannical. Yeah. And I think, I think anybody who’s, you know, there certainly are tyrannical churches and tyrannical patterns. For sure. But anybody who’s had a living healthy relationship in a church should understand that church is fundamentally not tyrannical. We talked about making and keeping commitments. That’s a making and keeping commitments is a different thing from a tyranny. That’s right. It’s hard because some people today, let’s say, might think that that’s that that’s it. Like, a lot of people seem to think that just authority itself, any authority is is immediately tyrannical. But that’s not usually that’s not especially in a church because think about a church is that it’s not you’re not especially now like there’s no one compelling you to go to church. And so it’s a negotiation like even if there is real authority, it’s always going to be a negotiation because it’s not like not like there are any consequences. It’s not like you’re not going to church, especially now. So, yeah. And, and yet, well, I thought your conversation I think it’s with Glenn, when you talked about authority. I’d love to hear you talk more about authority in some of these venues because. So my wife is an elementary school teacher. And she is she’s she’s in a Waldorf program so she went first grades first through eight with her class. I remember that first class that she sort of graduated. I mean those kids. Gosh, those kids would those kids would do anything for her, because what she did through those eight years was she’s very demanding she runs a very tight ship in terms of that classroom, but she can do that because she pays very close attention to each of them as an individual, and the kids very quickly pick up that she wants what’s best for them. Yeah. And so it’s not tyranny. It’s love. Yeah. Yeah, but you can see it like there’s also I mean I think everybody’s had that experience in school I remember my best teachers were actually not like the, just the nice teachers the ones that are just trying to buddy up to you and to, you know, they’re actually the teachers who were both demanding and strict, but involved and caring, so it’s like, you know, they, they will put in the work they’ll put in the time they will pay attention to listen to the list of your question they’ll take them seriously, but you better step up and, you know, so there’s that seems to be, at least in terms of authority understanding that for sure if authority doesn’t love, then that’s not how it works right I mean simple sets it up pretty clearly it’s like the authority has to love and then the, the, the, the, the people that are submitted to that authority have to submit but it’s a, it goes both ways right it’s like if you don’t, you can complain, let’s say you can be an authority and you can complain that nobody’s listening to you if you, you know, but, and you can say well they should you know this is God’s way like they should listen with like okay, you can say that as much as you want but it’s still not going to work. It’s not going to happen. So, so I think, yeah. I mean, I think it has to do with hierarchy people don’t understand also that hierarchy is always negotiation, not in a bad way, not in the sense of like a, like a fighter or some kind of conflict but it’s a negotiation in the sense that whatever thing has to find body has to deal with the body it’s going to find right it’s like a maple tree growing in a, in the town a rock won’t has to negotiate its body out of what is possible for it. So the structure of a tree will be related to the soil in which it is. And that is just a natural relationship between the pattern and its instantiation, and that is true for any type of hierarchy any type of authority. There’s a negotiation between the pattern and the structure and the, and the potential that will instantiate it. There’s, there’s no way around it’s not never just top down top down is not is not at least not. I don’t think there’s any way to argue that top down is the Christian way of seeing the world like it’s a, it’s a call in response like the Song of Songs that’s why, that’s why you know the you can see the Song of Songs as this relationship between God and man but you can see it fractally as this relationship between authority and those that are submitted to it as this, as this call and response of two lovers that respond to each other, and want to come together so. I think that’s why we want to create bodies. I think that’s why we meet together because, you know, the attention the love part of the part of the. I remember once you saying that you know these screens and people looking at us right now, we are beings of light. In that way the screens are deceptive. Yeah, because myself you john Reveke Jordan Peterson any of us, if you meet us in person. Part of you is going to definitely be disappointed. That’s right. That’s for sure. And one of the huge disappointments that I think the deceitfulness of these technologies are a blessing, but there’s a deception in them in that right now this is a very immediate relationship that, oh, I feel like Paul gets me I don’t get you at all I don’t see you at all I’m I’m not going to get out of camera and a screen here and I’ve even, you know, I haven’t even gotten to know john and Jonathan beyond, you know conversations less than one on one hand. That’s not real knowledge. Yeah. And I’ve certainly listened to them plenty and thought about them in terms but but the. The, you cannot really form a body, a durable life giving authoritative yet loving body without, you know, immediate relationship. And just by virtue of the Dunbar number I think part of what made Jordan so powerful especially in those early years was that he was able to connect both. He had authority, and people would again and again say that to me, or he, you know, he speaks as one with authority. Well, okay, I’ve heard that before. But partly because on one hand he, he was able to make a, a credible demand of people that people could say yeah I should clean my room. Yeah, I’m sponging off my parents I’m, I’m wasting my life. And that’s a credible appeal and a credible challenge, but at the same time you’d see him when he was talking about the loss of humanity that let’s say someone living in their mother’s basement covered in covered in Cheetos dust, doing video games and porn all the time. You know when he would break down into tears about such a person. You saw then that mixing of challenge and care and love, but, and the screen sort of said well he cares about you. Well, to the degree that you’re participating in, in the fraternity of porn and Cheetos dust perhaps, but that’s not much of a fraternity to be a, that’s not much, that’s not a good body to be a part of. No. Yeah, well it’s a spark like it’s a it’s a spark that can lead you to into something real which is why I think like it’s, I mean I think that both of us have have had different ways of going about it like I think the estuary, that’s definitely seems to be what you’re trying to do is saying okay well we need to get this to land, you know, and and I’m focusing more on the church idea, but the estuary is like an intermediary space like a space of, you know, bubbling space of discussion and exploration that I think is also super necessary right now. And part of for me, estuary always has two prongs one of it is I’d love people to form groups, make a body, participate in it commit to it, figure out how to make that a life giving life producing network of relationships but the other part for me is admonishing the churches to say, look, why aren’t you doing that. Yes. Why is it that no one imagines a church would be a good place to go to, in order to get into a body that, you know that has these kinds of conversations I see what you’ve done in terms of your symbolic world in a rather estuary way so you have here you have you have the church fathers here you have the church, but you are translating that and trying to make it intelligible via symbolism to a much broader audience. And, and, and some have figured that out and then found their way into the church. Thank you.