This Little Corner - Embodying the Logos - Nick & Skyler (3KoUWFNshsI)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=3KoUWFNshsI

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the first episode of embodying the logos. And I hope I said that right. This is a new format where we’re trying to do dialogos and give flash, give connection to reality of all these ideas that are floating around. So I’ll have the format that we’re trying to follow in the description of the video. Today with me are Nick and Skylar. Skylar has a lot of his mind, so he’s providing most of the subjects. But the first subject that we’re trying to broach is related to this little corner of the internet. What is it? And how could it fulfill its function? The recent dust-up around leadership has been had there. What is the role of leadership within such a structure and how can you lead without corrupting things and making authority? I would say and authority, leadership versus authority, those issues and people conflating them. Authority is a thing that needs to be granted. There needs to be an origin of granting that authority. I think they respect that, but I don’t know about leaders. So I think that’s a major topic that I’ve felt going on in this area. And to me, it’s recurring because I’m the type that pops in every couple of months, but I listen to the videos quite constantly. I read the chats. I have individual conversations with people a lot more than I’m actually in the channels publicly. So I just felt this is a recurring thing. And at this point, it’s more of like a now is a crux where we can do something potentially. Also, I’ve been an admin in the BOM group for, I don’t know, three pretty close to when it started. So I do kind of see some of or a good chunk of what happens there behind the scenes. So yeah, like maybe we can take a round about what is this little corner? How do we look at it? What are these functions that it provides? So for me, and this is my personal investment, what I’ve been doing is I’ve been talking to people. Most of these people come in fairly upset because their life is in order. They disorder. They don’t have a good sense making capabilities and definitely they don’t have access to wisdom in their community or their daily life. And so they’re kind of lost in a way. You could call that being stuck in a meaning crisis effectively. Not having access to these things confuses your relationship with meaning. And I’ve seen a lot of people from different angles, different causes come in and find grounding and ways to re-engage with life. And I think that’s a valuable service that I’ve been providing, but definitely not only me, but there’s many people that have been providing that service in their own way. And there’s been a lot of lessons that have been learned by all of these people. So I would want to gather this wisdom into something that can be given off to a new generation of people so that we can actually have something that can capture these people. Because one of the problems is that the internet is different than real life. The consumer mentality is way worse on the internet because you can just click to the next thing and you’re there. You don’t have to physically travel. You don’t have to look for it. It’s just a list and you can go to the next thing on the list. And so there needs to be something that captures these people. And these people, they have this problem. They have a problem with commitment as such. That’s part of their symptomology. And when you get a good personal connection, that’s a way that you can capture these people. And then slowly, when you have these people captured, you want to have structural activities that they can participate in, like practices and maybe courses that will train them and give them the capacity to engage live in a more full way. So that’s one of the functions that I see this one on the internet. What do you guys have to say about that? I think… The way I understood specifically the BOM Discord to work in the beginning was that there was a very strong implicit structure because there was so many strong personalities and regular characters that had learned how to have conversations in a certain way. And thus, as people would join in, they would start learning the model of the conversation just by participating with all these people that were basically implicitly teaching them just through engaging with them. And I would say that that is the ideal way to have a culture like that persist and grow and bring in new people. And that in some deep sense, when that implicit structure fails, and then you start needing to form explicit structures to carry the weight of what that system was doing, you run into a host of problems, but it does also make it more available. So, for example, one problem might be that explicit rules within a conversation can feel very limiting because you start doing this self-referential loop as you attempt to mitigate your own speech so that it matches the outline that you want it to match. The outline that you want it to match. And there’s something about that that’s, to me, very different than having a conversation with someone that’s skilled at kind of framing things and holding things in a certain pattern just by their interaction. And I think you can probably pick up the skill a lot better from that latter form than the overly explicit. Now, I’m not sure how that relates in terms. So, like, what happens then when the bottom falls out of a culture or new strong personalities come up that don’t model that form of conversation, but they draw a lot of attention to themselves and now that culture starts to disintegrate. So, there does become like an impetus to want to go, wait, wait, wait, we had something good there, we should make it something that’s actually, you know, passable without just having to have, you know, 10 people modeling it in the conversational space at all times. So, I understand both sides of it. I’m not sure of what the best way forward would actually be. In some sense, it’s kind of like keeping it purely implicit allows it to adapt very rapidly to new conditions. And that’s like, that’s, that’s, it’s positive and it’s negative, because when COVID kicks in or a political election is happening in a country where a lot of the members are, right, that implicit form gets crumbled by what the dominant culture is doing. So, it is adaptable, but just because it’s adaptable doesn’t mean it’s adapting in a healthy way. It could be unhealthily adapting to unhealthy conditions. So, yeah, I don’t know some ideas. I would also throw in that as far as the identity of bridges of meaning itself, I think it is important to remember that it is bridges of meaning. It is a transitory space. It is not meant to be, it’s not churches of meaning or, you know, big open field of meaning where you, you know, it’s, it was in some sense, it was built because there was a catalyst in the culture that was creating transformation for a lot of people. And we wanted a place where those people in the middle of transition could talk or transformation could talk with each other and share what they’re going through. But I think it’s important to remember that a bridge is not the catalyst itself, right? It’s just a place for those people to get from one place to the other. So, when you start changing what that goal is, you know, you get into this funky identity issue. It’s not a good plan to try and make houses on a bridge, right? That’s not its purpose. Better would be to cross the bridge, build your house or your town there, and now you have the bridge still clearly within view. It’s part of the structure of, you know, how people move about, but it is two different structures with two different goals. Yeah, that’s my opinion on it, that’s my opinion on it at least. As far as the identity of BOM specifically, this little corner as its own thing might be more like a township or something where there are more formal organizations. Yeah, I would say I’m going to start with this little corner. I think this little corner is a place where you see people talking in jargon, but they’re not trying to obfuscate or make an esoteric jargon. You see someone using words and you’re able to follow them up to a point and then there’s a place where it kind of drops off. A lot of PAJOT viewers talk about this, is people who say they listen for months or a year or many, many months and then all of a sudden it clicks and they rewatch an old video and they go, oh, okay, now I see. Part of Bridges of Meaning in this little corner to me was basically giving people access to what are the canons. If you want to know about Peterson’s work but you haven’t watched these three old videos from before the whole political nonsense, then you’re missing why Peterson had the strength to get up there in the overalls and deal with those people screaming at him. It puts you in this position where you’re able to give people actual meat on the flesh or meat on the bone, excuse me, and give them fleshed out and learn biographies of people and understand that there’s causal connections. This person was taught by this person. Here’s their PhD advisor. I was mentioning Ben Shapiro earlier. I recently learned Ben Shapiro’s doctoral advisor. His advisor was from James Joyce. He’s one or two steps away from someone that I would have never put him in, but then when I see that connection, all of a sudden I see why Ben Shapiro has that true pargesia, the courage to speak in the face of danger and say extremely difficult things to keep his cool, to not overreact. Why? Well, his PhD advisor comes from these other ideas. This little corner and bridges of meaning to me really helped people learn that jargon, realize there’s a cognitive cultural grammar. We’re not trying to make this our little game that the high priests murmur to themselves. We’re trying to make it so when you see people using these technical terms, maybe ask them, double click, go, hey, what does that actually mean? And then I can go, oh, you should watch this episode right here or read this, pleasure of doubt. You just go read his notes. He does a great little synopsis right here. Point people to all these other people’s work in the community who are doing a good job translating and putting an explanation. And then the bridges I’ve seen are talking to people like Chad about AA and all these other programs. There’s already these amazing grassroots programs. I’ll be talking more later about grassroots stuff that really have a place in the world and you can go participate in actually do these things and influence your real life. And that’s where I think the bridge needs to be to. So I have a whole lot more to say, but that’s definitely my, I’m glad you mentioned implicit learning. I’ve thought of this place as a very liminal zone. Like if you’re here all the time, you have to be a weirdo who’s always doing this. I do this for a job. So when I’m not doing this, I run, like this is what I do all day. I deal with people in crisis, I run crisis teams, stuff like that. So it’s a lot easier when they’re on the internet, by the way, than when they’re screaming at your face. And maybe one thing that was also very important to early bridges of meaning was how much Paul was doing rando conversations. So there was in a very deep sense, like many of the people that joined right at the beginning were people that had had hours of conversation. They had shared their life story. You knew them without actually interacting with them directly. And that helped form a pretty strong interpersonal connection right at the beginning. And there was a long period there where Paul stopped doing those types of conversations or stopped doing them nearly as often, which fair enough, that’s a lot of work. But when that happens, it’s going to change the tone of what’s happening on the bridges of meaning server, right? As it becomes dominantly monologuing videos, people that see the discord link at the end of the video are going to enter into the space in this much more idea oriented, thinky, you know, type of way, because that’s the media that they’re interacting with. They’re not interacting with people’s personal stories and those other bits. So that’s something you said in there brought that to mind. But yeah, so this might that might actually be a type of bridge into the leadership conversation in the sense that there was an implicit leadership just in the form of media Paul was producing that did had a very powerful effect on setting the tone of the server without it being explicit at all. Right. It just attracted that type of media attracted certain personalities. I mean, if you have access to the analytics, it’d be great because I remember his rebel wisdom talk. He was on rebel wisdom and they I didn’t even know if it was him on there. Actually, I think it was a video where they just had a clip of an interview with him. It was one of their collage videos and they called it called him the pastor of the intellectual dark web or whatever. Right. That next two weeks on the discord were very there were a lot of movement. And I remember a lot of those people who stayed from that rebel wisdom group because I’m I’m in almost every one of those groups. I was in the portal at the beginning and all those types of groups I’ve been in sort of to having met the admins like I’ve had lunch with many of the admins from most of the big servers because I live near Phoenix. I can just go meet them have lunch. Then I actually know if I want to get along with them. That’s the bridge I see for leadership. We have to have something like that because that’s basically why I backed away from almost every project from the intellectual dark web corner at the beginning when it was first being badly coined at. But I had the same critique that has been pointing out which is you can’t you can’t. So I’ve never been an atheist even when I was not a believer. It was like because that’s what I’m identifying against a thing. And if I don’t want to deal with that thing why would I define my life against it makes no sense. So that’s the trap I want to be aware of. But I also think leadership needs to do that. We need to as annoying as Jacob is to me sometimes he does go around and actually meet people. I bet I’d have a pleasant conversation with him. My wife cooks dinner and we all have a conversation. I’m sure he’d be more than pleasant. He wouldn’t blast me and pull in my house. I’m sure. I’ve seen him show respect when it’s shown. But this little corner as you just said has now made these personalities that definitely spike up. Sometimes I just get super upset. I mean I’ll call Manuel out. Sometimes Mark and Manuel piss me off so much that I’ll literally just mute. And sometimes I take it out on him. Like I’ve taken them to task. But often I’ll just like mute. And especially if Sally’s there I’ll just start talking to Sally and individual talents or one of the other people like that who they have a lot of time with these personalities. If they’re handling it that’s probably the main strength I’ve learned from Paul out of all of the interactions I’ve had even from the beginning was that ability to take on the discomfort and to deal with that the discomfort and to look for what’s there’s something there if you’re uncomfortable with what’s happening and it’s literally making you want to skip like stop watching the video there’s probably something there you need to pay attention to. And that’s a really difficult lesson to teach someone or to reward them for. You know you have to really you have to really see the reward like Manuel and I talked about. Some people can’t frame the reward. So we just need to show them that that discomfort actually isn’t going to punish you. The more you deal with that discomfort the less discomfort you have to deal with going forward. Peterson has framed that many ways. So people have these ideas but if we can embody those and practice that discomfort have those uncomfortable conversations now so you don’t blow up at the Thanksgiving dinner and not be able to. You had that conversation here then you’re at Thanksgiving your brother says the same thing you heard here and you know what’s going to happen and he’s your brother he’s 11 and then you can go okay pivot what’s other we need to deal with those discomforts and those things and Paul’s Freddie and Paul shows that’s like why I love those type of things that he commits to those because people deserve to see that’s really what we deal with every day. As a Special Olympics coach it’s really rewarding but it’s also just like very uncomfortable sometimes they have a meltdown in a restaurant everybody looks at you like what’s wrong with you so yeah and that happens on the server. You had mentioned people come in very hot sometimes when we go to my topic later I’ll probably have a higher blood pressure and like people get hot when they’re on their subjects we need to endorse their passions not mock them for it but also help them tame those passions not let not flame them necessarily. Not dampen them not flame them but maybe help them put some I guess fear container yeah constraining their containment yeah. Turn that explosion into a motor. Right and there’s probably multiple things that need to happen in order for that to happen right but there needs to be an element of submission right and the giving in of the ego right like that’s because Diego is like I want to manifest this way and there’s a lot of energy behind that and then you’ve got to realize that well maybe you can’t maybe you can’t this way or like maybe you can’t yet right like and you got you got to deal with all of these these aspects. It’s where Vervecki’s fittedness or optimal grip kind of I guess that’s Vervecki and Peterson both talk about it’s Marlo Ponti yeah that’s the guy they’re quoting is Marlo Ponti they’re citing the same guy. So what I heard you say Nick is there’s something special in the first generation right so the first generation is special because it’s first right like so they’re they’re coming there first like they’re in the area before other people are there right so there’s a special character and then the fact that Paul talked to a bunch of these people right like already had a pre-existing communal aspect introduced in these relationships right so then there’s a coming together and it’s like yes right like there’s there was a lot of implicit teaching right but there was also a lot of we don’t really know what we’re doing yeah right like people came from from their brokenness and their life experience right and and over the years right like that that we don’t really know what we’re doing has been receding right and and I think part of the the task is to to gather that knowledge or that wisdom better said right in into something that can be communicated to to other people and and yes right like you you don’t you don’t want to do explicit structure right at least in the sense that that you you create this this hard stop not not a hard stop because there’s there’s a transgression but the hard stop because you’re you’re out of what is ideal right I have a word that I think might help here because I’ve been thinking about we keep talking about the structure or these procedures we make or anything like that I’ve run lots of different mental health groups and stuff like that and I’ve noticed there’s there’s a basic fidelity in all of them if I teach you the fidelity for AA you can go to an NA group and do pretty good and then you can go to a co-ann on group or you can go to a dual diagnosis group or a mental health group and then you see that there’s actually there’s this through line of fidelity and that’s what I think we need to kind of crock I’ve spoken to chat about this a lot because there’s things like sponsorship AA has a great structure they probably have the cleanest structure for that but almost every group I know has something very similar all the I’m going to train the trainers we’re all in our own little quarterly meeting and most of us breakout session and see each other every couple weeks every month so there needs to be that fractal integration but the fidelity right like that’s yeah that fidelity and lets us all feel like when we we’re all there in the same spirit there’s a spirit beside fidelity that there is not behind structure and it’s hard to articulate that so maybe I need some help with that well so the place that I wanted to go is you have so you have that spirit effectively right but there is there is a type of structure that can be like above that so it’s not in conflict with the direct manifestation but it is organizing the arenas in which that manifestation manifests right yes yeah so the I talk about this all the time so I’ll try not to get technical but the girdles you can only have something complete or something coherent if we make a container or an arena a place that’s specified enough we can have that consistency and that that that’s where the the fidelity only works if we all agree we’re not going to go share what we talk about here I’m not going to go fib that oh one of the council members or some some famous person showed up to my thing I’m going to go tell them about their life problems we all said we’re having you know that support group system has that fidelity each place needs to have their own spirit here for example that’s not the fidelity of this if you’re putting your name out and saying what you do that’s a very different spirit than there so we need to find a way to encapsulate that that I feel it when you said on top of the spirit that seems so wrong to me but I think when using your lingo of contain it if we have a set container of where we are playing in an arena that makes it much more then we can actually hold each other to account which is that’s the hard part how do we hold each other to account I’m seeing this I don’t about all the time yeah by which standards right that yeah who are you to say exactly that’s it’s it’s a big deal there’s just two issues there right like one one is uh how how do you have that manifest the accountability and then the other thing is like to which standard is the accountability right and I think well there needs to two things need to happen right like so I don’t I don’t want to have one spirit right like I want to have space for multiple spirits but like you said sometimes you need to clash right and and the clashing shouldn’t be in the space where people are dealing with emotional issue right because there there’s a conflict right so there’s there’s different buckets right and and different things that need to facilitate be facilitated and people need to be able to move between these pockets but also be directed between these pockets right and there’s people who need to take responsibility for that direction right so that’s that’s a level of organization where it’s like yeah maybe you shouldn’t be here right now you should talk to these people right and and you need to know where those people are and why why that person should be talking to those people right like all of that that that that needs to be there and and then there’s there’s well all of these groups right they they need to share an identity right because you can you can only have the the communication between these separate vessels if they’re co-hearing around this larger principle and they want to be connected like they want to they’re in the same project right they submit it to to the same goal and and so uh I I realized that that shouldn’t be bridges of meaning because like yeah in some sense that’s that’s not where the function of it but there needs to be this this banner right and and it’s like okay we’re all in this project together and and we all um are loyal to that in in a sense and in in that loyalty we we surrender our our personal interest right at least in such a way that we’re not conflicting with with the bigger project that we’re in so yeah well maybe this we brought up before I think we started recording the the uh protestant verse verse uh catholic kind of uh theologies operating behind the way these um systems form and what immediately came to my mind probably from a from a more protestant like uh thinking space that people are free to build what they want and thus if it’s a good project that people are excited about it gains members now that’s like a almost a charismatic way of organizing a structure right um maybe not charismatic because care charismatic falls to a person’s distinct personality as opposed to the the value or quality of what they’re trying to build right there’s a bit of a disjuncture there but um that’s very different than say like a catholic structure where you have a very strong down chain but within this huge structure that does have this kind of very distinct single telos at the top of it um you’ve got like hundreds of different little groups and pockets all congealed within the structure right they don’t blow apart like the the protestant containers often do where like you brought up earlier manuel about um um leaving uh the verveki server and taking all the productive members with you to go work because it’s not operating in the way that it is conducive to what you’re trying to produce right and then when you do that suddenly the verveki server collapses in on itself because all the people that were holding the structure in place just migrated somewhere else so i i don’t know i i see my immediate answers to go everyone should be trying to build the thing that they think they should be building and if it’s worth building then it will gain followers on the other hand i see the same like no well no there should be a larger container that’s helping these things congeal and work together so that they’re not these isolated pockets of uh certain types of random activities or or you know it should in some way be forming itself into uh into a legitimate unified structure i don’t know i i don’t think they’re necessarily in conflict right because you you can build what you want to build within the bigger structure right like there’s there’s nothing that necessarily prevents you that unless you’re in conflict with the spirit of the bigger structure right right and and but if everybody is only building their own thing the bigger structure will never arise because the the tell us will be crisscross and um right you just have to get lucky effectively and so i i want to step around to luck and and make something happen there yeah it is oh go ahead um yesterday paul put out a video paul vanderclay and uh yeah most of the video is very long because most of the video is just clips of other but like the first 45 minutes is him doing kind of a monologue explaining sort of this what we are in right now somewhere around 38 minutes he says um i’ll happily be proven wrong in a thousand productive ways and i think right something something that i really appreciate about paul is especially i mean the first sermon i actually heard him i just happened to like decide fine what is what does his sermon sound like so i watched one of them and on the other channel the church one and it was the exact week that he happened to be doing the unsolicited exorcism so that’s he who is not against us is for us the disciples see someone doing exorcisms they don’t recognize him they get very upset go to christ and say hey this guy is not in communion with us we’ve never seen him at one of your teachings he’s never been around us why is he casting out demons you need to go stop him and christ goes like no no no that’s not there’s you know he who is not against me is for me christ manages that also if he who is not for me is against me so there’s this tension but in that space of that tension that’s what i’m trying to see manifest here um i think the way grim grays frames it kind of as a game i see this corner if we’re taking it more on how i could rephrase what i said earlier is people trying to take life seriously and play it on hard mode they’re not putting the gutters on they’re not putting let’s see if i can actually all those things that i’ve been given all these tools and all these amazing things i have at my disposal along with my grit and along with the people around me what can i do with that and everybody’s going to have a different response that’s why we need to be very open and that’s why i liked what you’re saying a moment ago manuel about can’t be like a certain there’s no certainty necessarily i don’t think you use that word there’s not necessarily a certainty for where we’re getting them but it’s really obvious when you’re doing it wrong so if you’re around a group of people who are all on their own path and have their own people around them they can recognize when someone’s on a path and they can recognize someone isn’t and that in and of itself is enough to kind of hopefully ground people because i we need people showing up and running for office we need people going to be on their town chambers and we need people doing staff that actually care and they need to take the time out and realize it’s not going to be very fun but it’ll be worth it and that’s what that’s my hope for the impetus of this corner that’s what happened with me 2018 i like stopped everything i was doing and was like this is i’m going to solve this no one else in my entire county has been doing anything through this and i got that that impetus came from watching like jordan peterson and other people who just flat out said sometimes these risks kill people but very often they actually have a huge effect because they’re riding a wave and that that metaphor is something i’ve just very much enjoyed i think akira the don even made a a video on that with jordan peterson is talking about the metaphor of riding this technological wave he realized he uploaded his videos from harvard all the way through 2016 or 17 all of his classes have been recorded so he has this huge surplus behind him that lets him push push through and then he actually cites people his paper he has a paper with over 10 000 citations that’s like that’s just unbelievable and anyways we need to ride these waves that we’re on here i see it’s uh extremely interesting hearing uh how so in a very real sense my interaction with uh this corner has been almost diametrically opposed to yours which is to say i was coming out of right a literal cult that had extremely big plans and was putting a ton of effort into altering the way you know the culture itself functions and what the interpretation of the world was and coming into this little corner was basically limiting back down to know i need to focus about my life and make sure my things are in order and take care of it right this very local you know area of control and that was extremely beneficial to me it regrounded me you know it allowed me to take commitments in my life way more seriously you know i’m engaged now probably be married next summer and it just helped kind of firm up to pull away from these large systems and big problems that i thought i was trying to tackle and instead go okay let’s start where i’m at and you know form a healthy way to to relate to my own life first so it’s interesting hearing because i can totally see how it could have gone the other way like where i could have expanded into taking on a legitimate problem in the world i see around me instead of that pulling back in it’s probably pretty amazing i see that both of us have those motions at the same time within the same group watching the same material and have both end up be so beneficial to each of us that’s there’s something special about that yeah that’s exactly that’s wisdom right like that wisdom does that it’s like okay you’re here and you’re there and you can relate to the same thing and you can use it right in a productive way and and get to a better place and there’s yeah there’s an importance there right and and well i think we talked about it nick we’re like what are you going to do in the future right like but there’s there’s there’s a way in which in which you need the groundedness to engage from in into the bigger world right because if you’re not grounded and you’re going into the bigger world right like you’re like oh we need to change the culture in this it’s like no no no we we need to have people who are grounded be the culture that’s what we need and when we don’t have that everything goes wrong and i think to go back to the role of this little corner of the internet like i think that’s the role that is fulfilling for people and and whether that like i saw this comment under family plays videos like yeah like you’re my pastor but like i live in this other space and i’m not related to discord and whatever right but if if that’s bringing that grounding and fulfilling that that role of of giving wisdom and and and well also i guess encouragement as well what does like there needs to be a lot of encouragement to to engage in in a constructive that’s what i see peterson’s biggest thing was the first time i remember seeing peterson well up is when he’s talking about what he’s seen people in need of and he said what they needed was encouragement some people have done their whole lives never being told you know have a good day you know when you’re about to go into school they said get out of the house you little bastard things like that it sets your whole life on a different trajectory that encouragement and i’ve dropped this comment over and over but i’d like to just kind of like read now we’re back on this little corner this is my longer this is how i normally talk i’m the reason that it’s called short questions for pvk that’s my fault because i like did this and joey was like no stop this so anyways this is mostly from greg henriquez he does a lot of talks with verbatim stuff some trilogues um i really like his work and i just kind of moved it in a little but i think the point especially of leadership in this little corner these people who can help help notice when someone’s on the wrong path as i put it earlier um that would mean we’d have to be essentially experts on character adaptation development and functionality we’d have to help people realize what is realistically possible what are the constraints and how do you best cultivate an understanding of yourself and your position to the world and that lets people ground because some people just don’t where they’re at they don’t have access to everything they need to as you were saying nick go back reposition where are you because i did that 2016 17 and 2018 i had pretty much gotten my shit together got my family shit together got my in-laws shit together got got shit got things together to where now the responsibility is into my town and into my county and now it’s into all of the northern state and it’s like i’m now northern arizona’s regional rep like that went from my room to like the entire northern third of my state holy crap you might want to you have to take this responsibility on but then when it’s that authority is given to you i didn’t ask for this they i was told like two weeks ago congratulations you are this now and i said well who am i replacing and they go oh there wasn’t one i’m like so you just made a position and gave like the hell that’s all right let’s let’s roll and make yourself indispensable it’s what my dad taught me um my dad’s a vietnam vet and stuff and make yourself indispensable they can’t fire you so they’ll just have to figure out what to do and you’ll probably make yourself your own position which is now what i’ve done a couple times but that’s what i see this little corner there’s so many opportunities but the only way to appreciate those opportunities is to actually see the advantage you have and then you can see the advantages to take from that but you have to actually take that first what is the perspective you hold what cards do you have um there are certain things that certain people just don’t have access to and they need to be i mean greg henriquez who most of that thing i just read from was quoting from he has the problem in psychology of let’s we have a really motivated person who’s bright great personality wants to be a doctor really wants to help people but they’re just not really holding on to everything and so i give them a general g score just have them take an iq test comes back 105 what do i do with that you have to you there’s no nurses there’s no doctors who are adequate above or below 115 iq sorry that 10 iq matters and that that sucks because then i have some crappy personality person doesn’t really care with 135 iq and i have to take it it’s like that that’s a system problem that i see this little corner dealing with all the time because we’re people who have to deal with these jobs and they see how this administration my biggest beef is administration and bureaucracy the larger a bureaucracy gets the more energy it must go from maintaining itself just to stave off entropy just how entropy like it’s just a way of the world and that’s why i’m always hesitant with any system or any thing but we still i recognize we have to work with them there’s that balance it’s not like just because i don’t like him it’s not like i’m an anarchist to go okay so that’s just a big big issue i’ve seen many many many times many many different ways well yeah so there’s two ways that the structure can impose itself upon the members within it right like in in in one way it’s like a lubricant right it’s like oh you need to go there right like this is how you get to it right and that’s that’s a functionality that needs to be there in in bigger structure right because you get outside of the dumbbell number and like you need to resolve that issue and then and then there’s the other thing is well there’s corruption right so we need to fight the corruption over right like this there’s this this layer like we want to have a certain quality we we don’t want to have the doctor with the 105 IQ because that’s not good right like that that person is not fulfilling the role and and i think i think it’s a good thing because um and i think i think we have to realize we need to also give them a role they can see someone like me i would say what you need to do is peer support why peer support specialists like they’re hard to credential right now but that that’s where the rubber meets the road someone who actually has a heart they’ll just be turned off from having the whole career because they couldn’t be a doctor instead of seeing the value of being a really good peer support when a peer support does a lot more good than most doctors they’re the one that gets you to show up to your appointments they’re they’re that’s more valuable than the doctor you don’t show up to your point you know but our system right now i see culturally we there’s something in this little corner there’s a spirit here where i’ve noticed we’re able to recognize real there’s some frauds that many people all recognize someone come through this little corner i don’t want to name names i can think of like three right now who have been in um many long-term podcasts some of bigger channels and stuff and they were just kind of like a third wheel in the conversation they were just there because they wanted to be there and they knew the person and they asked if they could also listen but then they didn’t want to just listen they wanted to contribute and then they didn’t have anything to contribute we need as you were mentioning we need to be able to cold those people but also not tell them f off sorry we’re just chatting but you don’t know what we’re talking about so shut your mouth and get out of here what you can’t have that double standard which is what i’ve seen you need to be able to differentiate and then that’s why i like fidelity because um to explain the support groups i run most of the time they have almost the exact same format but one is called the connections which is peer to peer so that is how i frame it is it’s our relationship with ourselves so it’s a support group for how are you dealing with your so there’s also the family to family which is how you deal with the people around you you live with someone with a severe mental illness and the family to family support groups help you have strengths for coping with those environments and those those situations and those people they have almost the same exact rules but the where the center of the conversation is at a different you know scale ones at the family and ones that the individual that constantly bounce back and forth and oh i think we should talk a little more before we go into it but when i define psychopathology define mental illness that’s why we it’s why it’s a big wrong long long run-on sentence because you’re trying to encapsulate something that’s destroying people’s lives that’s probably the most hard-hitting thing is whenever i’ve watched for baking and talk is this isn’t just hypothetical things we’re talking about why we get so passionate is we’ve seen someone do this mistake and maybe we don’t realize that this person’s personality in their situation the choice they’re making isn’t a mistake so that’s why it’s sometimes hard in this space to ground out actually learn where they’re at and oh okay you’re good doing that but maybe watch for still give them the heads up of what happened to your friend or whatever but those personalities and as you were mentioning you and i had a very different yet we watched almost i mean i bet you and i both watched dragons and the mother and the sacred but jordan peterson he’s like like i guarantee you you and i both just like watched that and then watched nothing for like a couple hours and sat there and thought and thought and thought and you’re like how did he say that stuff i’ve been trying to think about but i had no one to talk to no one knew why i was upset at pete’s dragon like and here’s this doctor on stage explaining it and i’m like ah so i want to build that fire and stuff but i just see the zone we’re in we need to i guess i that’s crazy i’m thinking about stupid thing i can i can uh i know porn when i see it type thing or i i know when you’re doing it wrong i can tell you if you’re doing it right but i can tell you you’re doing it wrong that’s what i see this little hopefully what we can be doing to help each other here right now yeah so i i want to grab into the peer-to-peer family to family right and you go further like community to community right yeah that’s the whole and and there’s there’s communication between those things right like so there’s there’s a way that that relationship manifests differently the things that are being talked about are different uh and the structure in in which that needs to have and the structure in in which that needs to happen is is different and and the values that that you’re trying to adhere to are also different i’d like to read them real quick because they’re so simple um i have to do this at the beginning of every meeting so this every week so the agenda you know welcome read the guidelines and principles we do a check-in one or two minutes per person and then it’s a group discussion and then we close and depending on how many people it’s an hour to an hour and a half real simple here’s the group guidelines the group guidelines tell us how we are going to care for each other in the group they provide a mutual consideration acceptance and protection that are often hard to find in the real world we will follow these guidelines at each meeting to create a sanctuary in the safe place we need one start and stop on time two time limit for check-in three absolute confidentiality four be respectful five no be mindful of others no monopolizing or crosstalk six let’s keep it in the hearing now that’s really hard a support group and then seven empathize with each other’s situation and then the principles of support are kind of the system of belief regarding our universal necessary truths that guide and strengthen us when life deals this particular challenge we’ll see the individual first not the illness we recognize that mental illnesses are often medical illnesses that have environmental triggers we understand that mental illnesses are traumatic events we aim for better coping skills we find strength in sharing experiences you reject stigma do not tolerate discrimination we won’t judge anyone’s pain is less than our own we forgive ourselves and reject guilt embrace humor is healthy we accept we cannot solve all problems we expect a better future in a realistic way and then we will never give up hope and every a and a they all have very similar you just need a strength and even it says at the beginning we’re we’re saying this to make this area that we know is often hard to find in the real world so we’re going to all agree to this we’re all going to go around the room and read one rule at a time so we’ve got all the rules and we all agree to this okay now we can and then within that little format but just the center of locust being different on the family or the individual the conversations that constantly go back and bifurcate between the two but I mean it I’ve never had a similar support group we’ve had I’ve had a lady come in because she just found out her husband was diagnosed with a the disease where he doesn’t have a filter I forget what it is she thought he was just a jerk who never stopped talking but he went under anesthesia and he kept talking under anesthesia and the anesthesiologist was like whoa like you have this crazy disease and the wife just was hating her husband she hated her husband because he thought he was being mean oh he just like he never shuts up it’s just to drive me crazy no he has an actual mental like condition he’s talking under anesthesia that’s not him annoying you that’s some things going wrong so but then you need a support group after that you just ruined 15 years you lost 15 years of your life you have to reframe every conversation you’ve had with your husband so I really like that format because every group and every situation AA very similar I I show up to AA meetings but I’m not an alcoholic and I just let them know I have my own vices I’m here to support someone that’s usually when I show up is because I’m getting someone else to show up to the class but that’s a hard commitment be dealing with that discomfort when you when even saying those rules will embrace humor is healthy man sometimes you laugh inappropriately when someone’s telling your dark story what do you that’s well that’s you got to ride that out it takes like some social skills to get the tension back out so what I’m picking up I mean that sounds like an amazing protocol that you have for conducting you know these therapeutic groups where people can can really dig down and work on some personal issues get context and support from the group it seems like from what I know of the estuary protocol because it is also just kind of like from what I understand it’s like a general outline for a type of conversation to take place so it seems like it would be very useful to have a number of these kind of general protocols where groups can maybe even self-select or if they’re if someone’s having trouble self-selecting then the group can kind of be like hey maybe you should go conduct one of these conversations with this group doing that thing over there but it does seem like having multiple protocols so people can kind of figure out exactly what they’re trying to do would be beneficial and what’s interesting is we’ve had a lot of BOM adjacent groups pop up throughout the history of the server where they create a new server that has BOM somewhere in the title and then it has a goal and very very few of them were successful yeah the book club works right the book club is probably the best example I mean that thing still does well the writer writers club and book club there was also like a period where people were doing almost like an internet fasting thing I forget what the title of it was but for a while when they were all doing that together that was extremely successful as well and it had like a clear goal it was BOM adjacent the people that wanted to go do it could just go hop into that server and then they had all the support from the other people also doing it and then when you know they stopped the group died out and it served its function for then what you’re saying is striking me because you mentioned the accountability group Manuel just briefly in there and most of the people that I talk to regularly one-on-one and just like individual zooms or discord like two or three of us talking are the people that I met from that accountability group back when I back when it was in its little thing like that little core of people we know such a deep thread sometimes between our lives about like traumas that happen in grade school and like some some very foundational things that every once in a while something comes across and I’ll just share it with one of them like this is important for you like I heard this and all I could think about was you that is something I want to find I don’t know if there’s a protocol or something but that’s something Graham Grizz has really been trying to articulate and that’s something I’m really on with which is there’s there’s something in that pattern that we need to take into account we can’t all keep track of everything but between us all we can it’s kind of it’s a paradox but it works like the old distributed cognition yes so to reframe what you said Skyler you internalized the order but not the full order but an aspect of the order right and then in some sense you could act as the extended agency of that person by being like well like to be a holder yeah like yeah an arm of the beholder yeah one of my favorite Peterson insights is about openness when he’s talking trait openness and he says I can’t cite this I can’t this is my personal yeah when Peterson says that Peterson says perhaps people who are higher in trait openness can be more people and he’s being super technical and I think that’s probably the best definition I’ve ever heard because they basically have access to walk in other people’s shoes hypothetically see where those things will dead end die out get cut and that’s what you need a leader or someone has to be that that role requires that ability because if not you’re gonna walk off the cliff and then when you distribute that when you distribute people like that something very funky happens it’s not like just distributing normal people sorry do you guys know the the this is actually I guess relevant people don’t know the story so give me just a moment they once took a group of heads um chick chicks that lay eggs this is an industrial thing they did a project next nada you may know where I’m going already and they decided they’re going to make like the grade 18 they’re going to make like the all-stars of all the chick laying so they went through they they counted they had thousands to start with they started with a huge pool of chickens and found the highest egg laying chickens of each coop and stuff and then brought them all together and then what happened is they all pecked each other to death and stopped playing eggs and all pretty much just went into such a civil war that they all died and were destroyed like that is such a relevant thing to know you know because that’s the problem that I can see happening and I’ve already seen it start to happen with people saying well in this little corner in it they don’t see what’s happening this is what’s happening and I’m going well you’re all looking at this thing from completely different vantages and telling each other that you’re wrong instead of going elephant problem you have the tusk I have the tail you have the leg like this is a complicated issue and maybe none of us have an actual complete but we do some of us do have much more of an aspect to it some of us can take many positions and go oh I can see what’s over here and over here and over here and I want to put wind behind some of those people Chad’s someone who’s like very insightful he’ll go watch breaking bad and then bring it up to a topic over here and I’m going whoa that actually it seems like it didn’t connect until all of a sudden with the end of what he was saying I was like oh I see what you’re getting at and we need to give him the confidence of other people to do those risk-taking thoughts right well there’s what is and then there’s what could be right like there’s there’s a different yeah and and yes right like we were talking about authority and JFK quote okay well I I did not know that give me a sec I want to find the JFK quote it’s like some people it’s in my head but it’s like some people see the world as it is and wonder why I see the world for what it could be and wonder why not that quote may have won JFK the election yeah because it encapsulated in one sentence the frustrations that that whole group he’s the youngest president ever elected by a lot he was he was under 40 like damn you have to be 35 to be president by the way so like that is a very hard group to be in yeah and I think when we’re talking about leadership and stuff right like well there’s people that hold authority or whatever right now right and and they need they need to be channeled in into people who have division right like like it’s like those people need to be lifted up and they need to be granted a status in some way right and then that status is the thing that allows other people to identify against that person right and then then you can start building the vision and and this time it’s a positive identification against right because because now there’s there’s it creates unity it creates a body and and then there’s all these other people right like that can identify what is and then what’s needed in what the what is in the isness right and then there’s people who are the work apiece that can manifest the things that need to be right and and I we we want to have people in these buckets right and and and I think I think if we’re talking about the meaning crisis and stuff right if we want to get people out of the meaning crisis help them find their place and live that place out the best they can because then they will find fulfillment right so I think when you start solving these things all of these puzzle pieces they they just start clicking together and and you will solve multiple things at once um and and yeah right like it is it is really frustrating because like I feel like all of these conversations that have been going on lately are yes I see this point of the elephant and don’t you dare say anything about the elephant because that will mess with my point and it’s like yes yeah that’s yeah the there’s there’s a bigger thing so when when we’re using a word like an optimal grip we’re trying to get that thing that metaphor was used by marlo ponti and it’s also the core metaphor and verbatim relevance realization what relevance realization is is how your cognition gets an optimal grip on the one where you are like that’s that’s me putting it down to the most lame and non-technical terms I can’t and there’s something to that that I I need help saying this another way or rethinking this but it’s like you can recognize when it’s wrong I don’t know if we can recognize all the time when we’re doing it right because you can have a different way so I can think you’re doing it wrong but under this way you’re actually not and I need help with that because well it’s it’s the telos right like the telos organizes it and then you you can see whether it’s it’s participating in the telos or not and I think that’s that’s the way that you can see that okay so it’s an ad okay so I’m using sorry to get a jargon if I’m using that okay give me just a moment if I can move into another perspective we’re looking at this thing whatever the subject of the conversation is whatever we’re discussing it becomes the the thing and you have a perspective we have a different perspective however behind it through it you can see where it’s going and that also needs to be taken into account so that’s that’s like a second order effect I see most people have always ignored the new marriage law that came through the United States recently I’m not going to get overboard I will promise you but if you read how they worded it you can see it’s it’s redefining marriage to do nothing with marriage but a social construct so that when you read when you then want to go on principle they have their own way out it’s using this because they don’t have the telos they don’t see that marriage’s goal is to have children and provide a stable family unit so that the generations can go forward and the society doesn’t fall apart well if I’m from a crappy stable on family unit I don’t believe that’s possible I don’t see the goal of preserving it so even if I can see that this is what we agree on this thing but I don’t actually agree that we need to preserve the family unit why oh I had a friend he had two dads and he’s fine well exception doesn’t make through and like my sister’s gay I’m not against that it’s just you can’t redefine these words against something and then the people who wanted to never go never move that principle is really what we’re arguing about and they can’t even see that they’re blind to that I was thinking on the on a similar path which is that in some deep sense I think the argument is not so much about what end of the elephant someone happens to be grabbing the the truly difficult argument and where things just kind of like start fracturing is where’s the elephant going right it is the telos because there’s no way to correct because it’s a potential right so like even if it is going one direction some guy will argue we’ll push it you know like turn its head so that you know you grab one ear I’ll grab the other and we’ll go steer it that way right so there’s not a there’s not this solid thing where people could surround the elephant and go well I feel it like this you feel it like that we can form this image instead it’s it’s happening at a different level you just made sense of verbecky to me so when verbecky is talking about we need to redefine recapture what rationality has to do that is what he’s discussing because if I need to get away from a forest fire I need to prioritize that if the elephant is thirsty I need to prioritize getting to a water right like your rationale is how you ration what you have and that that’s a difficult thing when you’re dealing with a hyper project or like a ship no one’s piloting a ship my dad was the radar man he was in charge of every movement the ship was doing but my dad never touched the never turned a dial that did anything on the ship he reported what had to happen and three chains down that’s how a ship was moved when you’re dealing with like a navy ship and so an elephant is something in our day something like a huge navy ship or like a huge thing it’s hyper agency is the term verbecky uses very often but that helped me a lot because that’s I see people the metaphor I heard recently is there are some people trying to drive us right off the cliff this is Jamie wheel he has a book called recapture the rapture you’ve probably been Jamie real little this cult stuff sometimes in his recapture the rapture book he talks about the people who have the same outcome you know they they seem to have such different world views but here’s this fundamentalist christian and here’s a member of isis and they have the same exact way the eschaton is going to happen so they’re both driving off the clip as fast as they can without hitting the brakes because they know they’re coming out the other side good and it’s like when you see that you can see why all of a sudden they’re agreeing to do something like what from the outside perspective it just doesn’t hold but then when you see oh they actually have the same telos they think they’re coming out daisies no matter what so they want the end of the world that just means the new kingdom comes quicker right that’s that’s their answer and it’s like I was just trying to think what’s the negative of having the same telos because those are people with the same telos total different principles a guy from texas who runs a megachurch and the member of isis but they have the exact same eschaton and then what they’re willing to do to get there is the same that’s fucking terrifying mind you i’m christian i was just raised baptist so i make fun of them a lot yeah so i want to give a different example right because we have we have this invisible elephant that that’s doing something in like an extra dimension effectively right because it’s it’s going through time right and but but in a sense we are also that right so so when i walk to the end of the street right like i don’t have a clear vision of what the end of the street is like i don’t have a clear vision of how to get there right like like i could have that theoretically but i don’t so we’re living in that state right and and and the way the way that i get to the end of the street is because i have all of these integrated uh practices effectively right like i have made part of myself sense ways of error correcting that i can rely upon unconscious right like they’re not there present unless there’s an error in the error correct and then i need to attend to that so how do you think so maybe it seems like uh again that kind of protestant verse catholic um system is is popping up again which is what happens and right the hens where in some sense too many leaders are grouped into a single group you also see this in like music like uh the biggest bands of the 60s were at one time all just in one band i forget the yard birds i think it was and then they all split off and became like the most successful bands like it’s a common issue it pops up in a lot of places um and then with that example i would say the traveling woolberries which i had a conversation about they did almost the opposite so it’s weird how that oh interesting yeah you can use that movement that means it’s real to me you can only see if something’s real if it goes both ways so that to me was like i just had a great conversation with that banker about uh that band but that’s like roy or burson and all these like these people who have no reason they don’t need to forward their career in any way but they wanted to make silly songs so they have like a love song where he’s in an auto auto parts store and everything in there is just a play on words from stuff in the auto parts store making a love song and it’s like you can only have that when you have like exceptional minds where it’s actually a good song with such a silly concept right and then so it’s i think that really especially the music or the band analogy that makes sense to me right so so there’s there’s a final talos right like something that that we need to decide for ourselves in some sense right like that we’re we’re trying to achieve right and then everything else needs to submit to that right so there’s these these layers uh so like different ways well my if you’re a christian or a believer right like your final talos would be your relationship to god right if i can write and and that then informs right that’s the top of the hierarchy right like and now all the other things are made sense of in in that context right and and you you can have less of that like i want to be a good dad or whatever right and then that allows you to assume an identity in a specific arena that that still gives that organizing principle right and so when you want to happen maybe this goes actually into what what what a psychopathology is right like yeah this is going so it’s i mean yeah so so so if you if you if you don’t have an integration between these organizing principles in your life then you’re you’re sick right like there’s there’s a disease because you can’t manifest properly and and so then then nick’s favorite thing is to open on the talos right like god is an open end the talos right because if if you make it a close talos like oh i need to become a bishop or whatever right then that close talos won’t allow you to manifest the will of god correctly because now you’re going to superimpose your ego you’re going to superimpose what what you think is the correct answer as opposed to letting the correct answer manifest right so all these people who are afraid of hierarchy afraid of afraid of structure are scared that the superimposition is going to happen right but in in some sense that’s a lack of faith right like it’s a lack of willingness to participate in the will of god because you don’t you don’t trust the will of god to be manifested what’s it’s this will segue shortly but i’ll give us a few more minutes before i go i guess hyper this is making me really realize why heidegger’s students just were so taken back because heidegger had given this a montology of to your terms an open telos sort of his his heidegger’s ontology is wonderful and then all of a sudden he’s backing and rationalizing a nazi party and all the students are like what is happening like how do these two to go together and i can’t believe i’ve never actually put this but i’ve read too much of these people sorry so i’m thinking aloud um the state’s divinity on earth is the state that’s hegel heidegger must have had some hegelian interpretation of that thought that this current introduction of the state is heaven on earth as it can be manifest therefore that’s why i will go with it maybe i do not see its ultimate telos but since it is manifesting i will that is terrifying because that’s the happy nazi well by the way yeah that’s like the happy nazi that’s that’s a big problem how do you how do you define yourself as sane when you’re living in an insane society or in an intolerable dysfunctional society all right and if you’re perfectly fitted to the wrong thing and you put god to the the highest if the highest thing in your world is society right there’s nothing above your society and some of these people’s views especially a socialist duh it’s a socialist they believe in the social man anyways like how do you that is i need a way to break people out of there i’m looking for hope i see it but when you’re in it it’s so clean everything makes sense how there’s no glitch in it there’s no it’s perfectly flawless like well no there there there there there is a glitch in i know but when you’re in it you can’t see it by yourself right so okay so i’ve been playing with mark about this idea about reality right and reality is that which objects right so at at a certain point things can’t happen right like this and and i don’t want to define that point because like i think that’s the sin right defining where reality is like you shouldn’t define where reality is you should relate to it as as it is objective and and so you can you can show people their inconsistency by letting them run up into the objections and saying well like that’s not me that’s not you that’s just like that’s just gonna be and what are you gonna do about that gonna be well i think maybe one of the reasons it gets so terrifying is as our power and technology grows we are ever able to insulate ourselves from those objections and thus you can end up being very far down the path until you actually bump into reality again such as in the case of the nazis thinking they could take on russia while taking on england and france and right getting attacked from every angle and then starting a new war on top of it well that’s clearly where they ran into reality again well reality doesn’t manifest instantly necessarily right right well that’s the problem is that we are ever more capable you couldn’t insulate yourself very far from reality you know a thousand years ago it either rained and your crops did well or maybe it rained too much and they flooded or you know like you ran into you had these smacking against the objection a lot more commonly just because we weren’t able to control the environment so so much that we could push it away and there’s two types of objections there’s there’s a natural and social or human right right they have different agents they do yeah it presents a quite a conundrum i’m not quite sure yeah see this is why you know there is a certain type of safety in the the protestant thing because you get this that constant fracturing in some sense keeps things from ever becoming so effective that they they that you have to take responsibility well yeah yeah and it did well i guess i have to go do this thing now so you know i’ll stop complaining about the other people not doing it i’ll go try and do it and start you know take it from there um yeah so so no no but like like i think that’s what the protestant eaters is right like it’s it’s the unwillingness to take responsibility right and unwillingness to take it right because oh because you’re protesting okay right so so so so so so and then it’s like well okay there’s this emergence right which really sounds like science effectively right because like that’s what science deals with it’s emergence right and it’s like well and and this is also kind of what anarchy is right like like there’s there’s this this this this self-organizing thing which is like paradise right this is before the fall people like we’re we’re we’re past the fall and and and like you might have things self-organized temporarily in in good ways the relying on the fact that you have good people get it around right because like that’s that’s necessary but if you have the good people you can have a good structure right because they’re going to manifest a good structure anyway so so like right at that point i i don’t i don’t see see the point and it’s like well if i want to make a structure right like i’m going to judge for other people that’s that’s what’s happening right so you’re you’re taking over their agency and that’s what being a shepherd is and like people should yeah um i’d like to read a little um mr martin heidegger this is from the question concerning technology i’m going to read like two little excerpts from my notes we ask um we ask the question concerning technology when we ask what it is um he then later states everyone knows the two statements that are and that answer our question that is that technology is a means to an end and a human activity the reason granted is to posit ends and proceed or procure and utilize the means to them is a human activity if technology is a means to a human end this conception can therefore be called the instrumental and anthropological definition of technology then a little this is the next question what is the instrumental itself this is uh this entails questioning the purview of instrumentality which means and ends are subsumed in telling the question um so this is where it ends i promise i’m done within what do such things as means and end belong so his question is more like about the telos do you get what did that make sense at all yeah it’s the final cause right like i think i think we want to have the four causes introduced yeah he has the four causes that’s exactly so it’s like man um i see this question is still what we’re dealing with which is very scary because it’s explicated clearest by a guy became a nazi so we need to like really keep an eye on each other when talking about these things because if you actually figure it out there’s something like nicola tesla inventing the death ray and you have to go crazy and destroy all your work so no one can ever rediscover what you made like that’s that nicola ended his life having to like make sure no one could go through and decipher what he had done so can you restate the problem sure um so let’s see if i can yeah in your own words yeah in my own words that’s why i’m not going to just read it again i’m thinking about it it’s talking about the means and the ends to those means okay it turns um it’s why instrumental that’s why that word transactional or instrumental really upsets me because i got it from reading heidegger i’ve heard it in this this corner uses the term transactional very often so i could kind of sort of take that but they see the utility in the relationships with each other they don’t see the worth in the actual relationship so everything becomes a means to an end the ends and the means are always there so technology is just one of these is quality that’s that’s the distinction right so you’re you’re doing something right and you’re you’re having every action right which is effectively a tool of of your spirit right that’s what an action is right so every action has a material manifestation but it also has as a spiritual manifestation right so the material manifestation is something that science can relate to it’s it’s quantitative and then there’s the qualitative aspect right and and the qualitative aspect is the relevant aspect right that’s the justification yes i’m kind of getting the sense that this actually relates all the way back to again i don’t think we were recording yet but the recursive versus the fractal and in some sense it seems like what heidegger is pointing out is that technology is necessarily recursive right so it’s broken it’s broken the fractal structure of the thing we’re actually participating in and forms a recursion out of it right because it’s because it’s manifest right it’s it’s out of the ideal realm and it’s in the manifest yeah now i need to i don’t know what you do with that i feel like we’ve yeah now i’m like oh no that’s like that issue so i guess we should one of us should double click what we just talked about for the audience because that was part of your goal we don’t want to lose anybody who’s with us and it will also give us time to think pageo has had a couple talks with um i think one of them was with one of the bitcoin guys um i’ll go through and find these things and we can timestamp stuff um i’m organized in that pageo was essentially um whenever they were talking about recursion limits and these these patterns that they have to use to set the parameters necessary to run these computations his his and and ash uh initial analogy was always fractal and one of the people tried or at least let him know those aren’t quite the same they’re extremely similar but one as you were just saying and there’s a base to the to the to one the fractal is limitless both directions that one i have better time explaining because it’s like you go up a scale you can go down a scale and that happens no matter what you do but recursion requires kind of a top-down implementation from the beginning so if one of you guys can maybe explicate well i i think a good way of looking at that is it’s the map and the territory right so the recursion is is trying to describe the fractal but by trying to describe it you’re you’re not it yeah you can’t yeah this i mean this is the idolatry problem isn’t it right yeah it’s it necessarily you know we try and stick god as the limit like the fractal thing at the top of the system but every attempt to describe it to form an image of it to even know it or relate to it he’s also at the depths correct he’s at the top and at the bottom and like what is happening and then right i would say ian he’s in the center and you’re like what is happening and he’s allowing for the movement yeah yeah and the problem is that our attempt to relate to it now we’re getting into the the technology problem again right the that heidegger pointed out which is the attempt to form the image is itself that’s the technology right the image is the technology um i mean you end up creating a recursion that you get stuck in okay that’s that’s the idolatry problem that’s why we’re told do not form an idol right i mean imagine showing up to a rally um the nurburgrals okay there’s over a hundred thousand people in perfect formation to the person not one person out of line everybody’s wearing the same stuff facing the same direction they have these um you know anti-air uh lights pointed in all directions in like a cathedral of light all four corners have beams going up and then there were lights at the ground if you picked your foot up you wouldn’t see a shadow okay imagine the energy from something like that if you’re heidegger and then going ah look at what we can do with techne look at this i i can manifest the ideal look i don’t even have a shadow it’s midnight there’s no moon we’re going to take over the world no one can stop us sorry you would 98 percent of people would go through with that you can tell me you’re not a nazi fuck you put you in that situation more than 95 98 in my opinion percent of people are like that sold me let’s do this that would be hard that’s well i’m looking at vaccine rollouts how they obfuscate words they’ve changed the definitions of words like vaccine and anti-vaxxer on february 19th of 2020 that’s not suspicious oh march april the world is shut down and i have new definitions for words so i sound like a crazy person and and then my friend who’s a british medical journal editor he goes on congress and his videos get censored for false information about covid he’s testifying in front of congress to explain them what’s happening and they’re taking those like these have ramifications now this is lysenko taking the max mixed with this nazi it’s like the worst aspects of what these two groups were doing we’re now getting both and they can capture all our data which is exactly what the communists wanted so they can capture our data they don’t need my they don’t need an informant in my house if i don’t have a vpn they can just know what i’m doing like and if i have a vpn they put me on a watch list because they know i’m doing something you’re on a catch 22 you’re on a watch list how they justified it was well we need to keep an eye on anybody anybody who’s going out of their way to keep their privacy we really need to keep an eye on that that’s the fucking patriot act congratulations one senator voted against that guess what the big five biggest big five countries all do the same policy and they all do it like this isn’t a kind of this is actually a problem but we have to be able to fix it how do you fix it you have to go to your town hall you can’t just go to your congress you can’t go to your senator you have to actually explain the infrastructure down to your neighbor into your council members into your mayor and then from there and then you have 15 other problems exactly you’re it’s a it’s a hydra but like these are things aren’t hypothetical so like especially if if we do go into my definition like that’s why you can feel my blood pressure rise because it’s like this is not a this is not a what if situation this is like i live in arizona there’s open borders now it’s not fun like i call ice and i don’t get help unless unless i can verify they’re a gang member ice doesn’t help me anymore that’s it’s a hard to have law and order right now there’s they have implications they have real consequences because they don’t one out of five californians or one out of six californians were not born in the united states that changes the entire culture it’s not like i’m against it it’s just whoa that’s that’s one out of five people didn’t have like baseball games or writing a little beat or in your community doing your community stuff they’re not they have to be grafted in they can’t just be put on they have to be grafted and if by the way we should find a video i’ll share it if you guys have never watched it have you ever seen someone graph trees there’s this guy who goes around and the one i i was entranced he was graphing a pear tree he found this this proper root structure so he cut the top of the tree and he put four different pear branches on it grafted and he had four different pear trees coming out of this super strong root and it’s like when i was a kid they made fun of that bible parable because that’s that’s not how it works and then i’m watching this and i’m like whoa this guy’s covid project was showing me what paul was talking about when grafting the trees if i want this and this and this and they all come from this i can do that and it’s like well time lapse technology and youtube you can you can see that with your own eyes and it’s so so i want to turn this back into this little corner what we should be doing in in this little corner right so what what is this grafting doing well so it’s it’s letting people borrow your foundation right like yeah your your solid standing they they can have a vantage point and then they they can use your nourishment until they grow their leaves and they start participating in in the structure and they start actually feeding the trunk back in and i think i think that’s that’s what what we need to do right like we need we need to provide that for people and they need to stay in place right like like you put the thing there you bind it and it needs to hold in order to get integrated and if it takes don’t don’t protection also it’s it’s tender when you graft that first thing it takes protection and there needs to be people putting very clear don’t go out here right now if you want to do this like a great example i have is a philosophy professor a good philosophy professor when they’re teaching you a subject you think this is what the philosophy professor lives his life on they’re able to explain it in a way and they act in a way while they’re teaching it that they can take it on and then at the end of that week or the end of that little thing and they move on and they just shatter that world right no philosophy actually is a good worldview that’s why they’re all philosophy professors or nihilistic crazy people sorry and but that perfectly makes sense to me because you’re able to embody it but the only way to actually learn it is to actually commit long enough to see the see the fruits start to bear like that takes a long that takes protection of maybe a full season where there’s no fruit there and you’re going what the hell i planted this should there should be pairs wasn’t it in the bible that that they couldn’t eat the food for the first three years of the trees that were planted in israel see yeah yeah there you go that’s actually a good one yeah when especially when they take over a place if i remember it has to do with one of those laws but that’s i it’s i know it’s in the man of war book or god is a man of war but that’s exactly and so yeah this disconnects it back to to my definition of tool all right tool is the contextual implementation of the principle within constraints within constraints yeah and and and so what what is taking over new lands well taking over new land means that you’re in a new context right and so you you can’t participate you can’t judge the fruits in the new land until you’ve done it a couple times like because the first one isn’t reliable and i think that’s the principle behind that and i think we’ve we’ve had a couple years now on on this little corner of the internet right and like i i i think that’s why we’re feeling like we’re like there’s there’s this different energy or whatever right because there there is there is the sense that we can taste and that we do have a way of sense making and yeah we we don’t know where the elephant is going right but we we know what which way it’s moving right well and it is it is interesting you know there’s a lot more structure present now um i mean even with paul like actually going pretty hard on the estuary stuff and trying to get that going the meet the in-person meetings i mean a lot of it was kind of frozen because you couldn’t do in-person meetings without someone coming and breaking up the party there for a while um verveky obviously um you know i think just this last summer he did a whole thing with rave it sounds like i haven’t been keeping up very well but um so it seems like there’s a big push for actually creating these other larger structures to make a more reliable you know system or protocol or something so that people aren’t just stuck in that it will in the bridge right right i mean and it’s i mean and it’s it’s tricky because i do think what it is the meaning is just meant to be a bridge it is just like the people crossing they they might be going in opposite directions like you know skyler and i were probably going to give each other heads up right right right and we we see the commonality as we do it and you know it creates the the sense of like oh yeah this bridge is bi-directional and i might cross it again in another year or whatever right um so i think that that is a useful space it’s far less structured but you need those far less structured things so long as you also have peripheral structures built on the land masses that that bridge is connecting um so it is it is interesting there’s clearly i think grim gris has been bringing up the self-organizing criticality uh recently and it does seem like a lot of people are feeling like we’re hitting like there’s some critical point that’s being hit that something new needs to happen now something has to be built here because if it doesn’t it just starts falling apart under its own weight right there’s too many people on that bridge that bridge and they’re not moving they’re not getting off of it right so the bridge is starting to sag under the the the stress of all the all of it um well i i want to use a different metaphor right it’s like a cocoon right so there’s there’s this transformative aspect where and and when you stay in there right you don’t expand the effort to crawl out right and yeah like that’s not another good answer you just die uh with uh curled up wings right uh yeah yeah so it is and again it it persistently seems to get back here which is what’s the best way um do you let you know do you try and form a superstructure or do you let people fracture off into their the groups that they think are the most important aspect and just kind of let them naturally compete with each other until i have the ones that are most effective you know end up gaining the most people i i mentioned this earlier that there’s kind of a through line between marla ponti relevance realization a lot of the work if you look at um where they’re all getting that from is darwin that’s evolutionary the the two trade-offs and then the bringing together um peterson talks about this when he talks about pragmatism the pragmatists got darwin’s theory and we’re like ah this is what we needed and then you had american pragmatism because they read the theory of evolution including all of it including sexual selection and stuff and they ah that’s this gives us the grounding okay i’m going to start segueing towards my definition if you guys don’t mind i’m not going to read it yet but we’re already talking in this exact field because there’s something about how how how generations move down that um i’m going to get biblical sorry people have thought for way too long about when the eucharist becomes the blood and body you’re like when is it when the priest says thing is it when we say amen is it when i’m close it is it when i believe that it is when is it when if we agree that it is that that bread is also the body butter fries when we’re all eating it together then we’re in agreement but if we try and find when that’s when literally more wars can break out i’m seeing that exact thing here over and over people are on these bridges looking on these other moments and they’re wanting to know when the magic happens how it happens i want to encapsulate it so i can algorithm algorithmic well they want to be part of it as well right like when they see it exactly yeah they’ve seen other people are have these like ah and then they’re sitting in there in their room still going yeah yeah but also like i made someone else go ah right and therefore i’m good and um never mind the more mundane um problem of people seeking power when they see a right something’s forming well if i can get in early and at the top of it then right yeah that’s pure so i like that’s why i just don’t like administration or bureaucrats in any form we need them but they need to be forced in i think you should only be a bureaucrat when you’re literally forced into the position that’s how you’re an actual worthwhile bureaucrat um i guess i’m going to read this more than once okay well it’s responsibility and duty also so like yeah definitely sounds not fun but maybe you have to go through hell to get to heaven that’s it’s an old story i don’t think that they’re wrong all right um i guess i’ll wind up to myself i have some skin in the game i get upset at certain people when um in this little corner in particular when they uh act like they know what they’re talking about but they actually haven’t even put the hours in to to read the person’s work or to listen to their interviews or to watch their thing but then they have these criticizing questions that don’t don’t even get the spirit of what their work is entailing um earlier i was when i was kind of in deep thought you guys were talking and it’s probably really zoned out looking um i was really reminiscing on verbecky’s uh one of verbecky’s better points to me is his cognitive cultural grammar how very often people are just talking past each other he has a great ted talk on the word mind and how neurologists and you know all these different people use this word but how they’re even unfolding it recently there’s been a talk between johash bakh and verbecky and it was amazing because johash bakh this is all going to tie into my definition if you know the lingo but i’m not going to i’m not going to tie it unless someone asks but johash bakh has a theory where only a simulation can be conscious and he shows you an ontology where that is the thing so what you are is a simulation that actually has you’re plugged in you’re like a simulation in your head and that’s alfred north whitehead peterson quotes the quote all the time your thoughts die in your stead so you don’t have to so johash bakh is playing with that but he’s johash bakh is not a subtle person he is extremely intelligent if you’ve read his paperwork he says oh i’m not very well in that field he has over a thousand citations and then in an interview he says oh that’s not really my field i just had a particular interest and this bothered me so i wrote about it for about three years and it’s like you’ve used that’s not a humble brag i don’t know what is but johash bakh and rveki spoke and they actually got to talk about this a little and in the definition i’m about to give you will see the telos the object all of those are kind of nested in this definition and i’ll probably do it more than once so this is psychopathology it is the persistent failure to move towards one’s goals due to failure to generate effective new goals interpretations or strategies when your existing ones prove unsuccessful so if you cannot effectively move towards your goal generate a new goal generate a new interpretation or strategy to achieve your goals and that is persistent you are suffering from psychopathology how i can say that moves up into law i’m going to try and keep this very practical come october first arizona’s law changed for how we can get people into medical 72 hour observation so let’s say someone i love is going into mental psychosis how about living california we have the 5150 i live in florida i have the baker’s act they allow basically two people who know that person to share to the authorities this person is not in their safe state of mind we’re concerned please put them in observation we think something’s wrong arizona has just added it used to be our only way we could do that was you are a threat to yourself or others which is like mandatory reporting very basic stuff arizona finally has made been a baby step and what we’ve added is persistent acute dysfunction if you have persistent this acute dysfunction that also can get me get you in a 72 hour if you if i get you into a housing and you don’t take care of yourself and you get kicked out of the housing and you’re in your homeless again sorry i run a homeless place someone comes to me homeless i try and teach them the life skills we get them into a housing thing they persistently destroy destroy the habitation and make it unlivable for the other people around them and themselves we cannot keep giving them that housing they have it’s just not how it you can’t it’s sad but especially when you’re giving these people classes and trying to teach them and you’re going in and helping them pick it up the trash and the one week you don’t they won’t do it you have to hold them hot in the whole time someone like that persistent acute dysfunction there needs to be something to help them and in the united states we have our de-institutionalization but these definitions have real real consequences in the world when you’re trying to help your loved one when they’re having the worst day of their life these little definitions are going to matter a lot and understanding how they work so that’s why over the last like five to seven years in my life i’ve gotten right down to this nitty gritty but it’s just amazing when i first read it it’s the persistent failure to move towards one’s goals now peterson he talks about you know when you achieve something or get the thing that’s actually not what you want you get the pleasure from moving towards it your pleasure is gained when moving towards a thing and it’s like you can see all of these lessons very handily summed and this is the work of colin de jon so this is the work of one of peterson’s students if he watches harvard lectures he’s the guest lecturer in there in some sense you could almost describe that state as the the simulation taking dominance over the part that’s plugged in right and now you even have like a a floor for describing a pathology like like schizophrenia right where the simulation is so overwhelming right yeah that’s that’s interesting i mean it’s and then here’s another thing verbecky’s cooking on which is all all of these psychopathologies is something between psycho like a sociopathology versus a hyper dysregulation that’s like autism or too much it gets so effective some those are the two most extremes of all mental illness and then in between you can find everything and that’s that’s such a hard thing to see because that’s not none of the models predicted that nobody has taught that that’s something that’s i know the first time predict that okay the hemispherical yeah 2011 master in his emissary uh yeah 2011 yeah and that’s about it you have one dude like like the model that i made but morrigan’s yeah but it’s 2011 was the first thing something got published actually talking about that naseem taleb has this but it’s an economics but he has his characters i love naseem talebs excuse me jasmine nuts sometimes but he’s great um he has his character fat tony do any of you guys ever read in content at all it’s probably the most relevant thing ever but if you watch a google talk so i’ve rewatched um this will make sense actually watch this i just rewatched naseem talebs google talks they invited him to um introduce both of his um books so i think it was like nine years ago and then they did one um six years after that he gets on the stage lets the guy know you’re nervous you forgot your phone so the guy who just introduced him has to walk back up and get his phone and he kind of chuckles like hi you look like an idiot he goes this is the second talk by the way um he’s explaining the encounter which is five books fat tony is a character in those books that he uses to explain these hypotheticals and put flesh on so you can like have a character in your head that like b he’s like a little stupid socrates from manhattan or wherever he’s from anyways he gets up on the stage this i’m gonna stop right now and he goes i was here six years ago describing one of my books and the mean age in this room is six years older than it was six years ago and then he just moves forward and never brings it up again and now when i look at what’s happening with google and stuff naseem taleb let me know that let me that was i remember listening to that comment the week naseem taleb did that google talk i was one of the first people to watch that talk like i was hyped for it i was super hyped and to see him get up and just that’s such a brutal comment what he’s saying is everybody in here is the same people you have no new blood you guys are dead already you’re dead you don’t even know it his first comment to them is you’re dead and you don’t even know it if you actually read my book you’d be able to hear what i’m saying and you would be worried and what happened no one not none of them heard it and it’s just amazing and then the rest of that talk is phenomenally explains delin the effect of many of his very core principles but of things in this corner mark and i for example naseem taleb is something we very agree on him and i have read most and engaged with his mooks and we we get his mark thinks in that type of way and my dad is a mathematician so i can’t help but see that jex position of like how an economic an economic person looks at the world homo economicus versus actual people they’re not the same homo economicus is just a thing for doing spreadsheets it’s not a real thing it’s an abstraction and um that’s what when you’re talking about that simulation that’s i can remember naseem taleb saying that i’ve recently rewatched that and it was just so obvious here’s someone who’s doing his best to warn them and they cannot hear it and damn that’s such a potent converse i was here six years ago the mean age is six years older in one sentence he lets them know they’re dead wow it’s it’s that uh well he starts it off by touch putting the touchstone back to reality right that’s the objection that we were talking about much earlier yeah and he’ll name people he goes can i name people he goes it’s my book i named him in my book and then he just names the individual and that’s why i’ve been on paul’s paul vanderkley’s channel and jacob was on the channel and he was basically trying to get paul to say that calvinist theology is stupid because calvinist theology if you read it with the most basic lens 200 years after calvin died calvinist theology can say with a very basic lens that god set up everything and inflict the first domino and there’s no free will because god knows what was will be and will and is right now that’s such a limited but what that’s influenced by is actually newtonian physics and i’m on paul’s and jacob’s just like that you’re you’re an idiot like what you’re saying doesn’t make that’s not how it works and i’m like you think that the world like calvinist theology is the thoughts of calvin it’s people who read calvin’s works and now you’re citing 200 years of extrapolation it’s called the error box so if you work with military people an error box any especially scuba diving you don’t have to be military for scuba diving it’s a great one an error box is basically that the more parameters that are involved the quick the quicker your extrapolations fall into meaninglessness right because if i’m moving in three directions like if i’m just walking on the surface of the thing and i need to find something it can be hard when i’m in the water i have an extra parameter and the error box multiplies every meter you swim away from where you’re supposed to be right becomes a lot more difficult to find where you’re supposed to be the the and that’s why the stupid models the un models peterson and everybody makes fun of is because they their error box is absurd they’re taking into account here saying let’s do this and we’ll have this effect but you don’t know the causation between all of these factors there’s too many and yeah never my current in yeah in the case of of the ocean right there’s a type of motion occurring that you are blatantly incapable of perceiving at all while you’re in the situation yeah so it’s even in some sense worse just because i mean you can extrapolate that principle right we are in many currents and we’re getting pushed and dragged around with them while thinking we’re staying still right well i’m here you know at least i haven’t moved yet here underwater therefore i have some you know it’s of course you’re moving you have to be able to see the ground to know if you’re actually moving or not some stable reference i remember i was a certified scuba diver actually and i remember that they give you a lot of tools for trying to navigate underwater the biggest of which is always make sure that you have something stable in the environment a rock i mean it’s tricky when you’re in deep water because you largely don’t have anything it’s just blue everywhere you only have your instruments in fact terrence mckenna has an awesome metaphor when he talks about this and he goes you know when you’re real deep down when you breathe out and you can’t see light or you’re doing dark diving your bubbles always move away so you can’t just go oh i’ll watch my bubbles the bubbles go up and i’ll fall that doesn’t work yeah many many many scuba divers have died that is why nitrogen narcosis you try and use the bubbles you can’t tell where the bubbles are that’s that’s real life consequence though and it happens a lot yeah and that’s why we train you read your fucking instruments these instruments it’s not like that’s why i’m trying to that’s what really that’s why i brought up heidegger earlier because of the questions concerning technology it’s like he’s on to something all of the students agreed with them they read that paper and they’re like yep and then like a couple months later he’s like i am now the head and they’re like wait what did you write the same paper i just read like what and now i’m getting much more grounding and a lot more sympathy for heidegger which is what i wanted i what i really want is a understanding of circular economy how can you justify that entropy is real but anyways they have to have some rationale like for them is seamless because inside it needs to be seamless i can usually get inside of the seamless rationale i know it’s wrong and do it or mark and i have a game with eugenics and other messed up stuff you can tell me the worst idea and i can perfectly rationalize but it’s evil it’s not like i’m telling you i agree here’s a path finding tool works just fine it works just fine that’s terrifying because heidegger lived that and then now i’m watching when i try to explain fauci to my parents my mom dad he was kicked out of congress for gain of function research in 2015 when did that lab open okay why is there a boston lab that is splicing two coronaviruses together and making a fatality rate over 90 on rats why it’s outlawed since 2015 and they just published it in the boston technology labs what the fuck no one’s being held to account no one it’s just like i don’t understand well if you don’t understand refer here’s another problem that this kind of abstracts into is like we have so many specialties in this little corner so many varied perspectives and lives and ranges of life all right age groups all these things there has to be uh has to be i hope there is um some way to recognize that value of the tool because that is the value of the tool it matters if you’re scuba diving you need to value your tool some of these people are expert trained in their tools when we’re in their field we’re dealing with conditions they’re comfortable in listen to them jacob willing for president in my opinion why his company goes around and puts the puts the person in like the most uncomfortable predictions possible uh five children just died in this neighborhood from one of your products the press is outside the press is outside you have a briefing in 15 minutes you just hired him for that and he and he lies to you and lets you know that’s happening you think it’s real and then you have to like fucking pivot and he puts you in the worst situation well then when the nicest thing happened another one is the guy who just run the wrestling uh gordon he trains from bottom i was listening to his coach a lot his lex friedman interview with the coach was amazing damsey that man’s terrifying he’s like a new age custom auto it’s amazing but he trains from bottom he lets other people when they start he doesn’t start in half position he gives you his leg he gives you you know maybe 20 you know 90 degrees off but he gives you mount on his leg and he has to fight from there and he’s going to pin you and he does it like almost 100 percent at the time because if you if you start face it’s like you don’t even watch his match it lasts 11 seconds he did a straight straight tobogzuki on the guy’s leg and like 11 seconds from match start to match end that is one of he did that to a world wrestler from who placed medals in the olympics and he had him tap out in less than 10 seconds holy shit this guy is like on another level but then his coach is talking to lex and lex is like so if you put ford in against a chimpanzee and he’s like the chimpanzee wins 1000 out of 1000 matchups he grabs gordon goes and lex just doesn’t compute as smart as lex is lex just doesn’t understand the reality of like strength and here’s here’s basically custom auto living now so the custom auto is the coach of mike tyson for people who don’t know fighting stuff sorry did martial arts since i was five love fighting custom auto is the old rickety man who cut who took 15 year old mike tyson and made him iron mike tyson custom auto is amazing you should look him up on youtube he shows people his anyways philly shell and like all these things but they actually ground out in reality and that’s it’s great to have better metaphors i’m really thinking of the grafting of the tree last time market or manuel and i excuse me used uh kind of getting advantage from the mountaintop um but from the mountaintop you can’t go build the thing in the valley you have to like then there has to be a preservation of knowledge going back down but then you also have to know that the world is adapting and changing and then you have to go back up it’s like there isn’t a certain spot that’s why this bridge to me is this and that’s also the persistent failure to move towards your goals that’s why that definition i think that’s what a structure should do right a structure should build the path on the mountain and maybe put like a couple way stations right like this and and then you man those places right and and and when you’re talking about using the tool right like you want to have as experts at these levels and when you were talking about well it’s different when you have a conversation when you try to do your personal thing or the family level right or the communal level like i think i think there’s different languages of communication that need need to manifest right like this there’s different intelligibility that you need to participate with and then you need to communicate up and down as well right and i think when when when we’re talking about collective sense making and stuff like that that’s the trick that we we want to well not so much proceduralize but have have a container for the spirit that needs to manifest these things yeah and that’s an exciting project everybody yeah what’s hitting now is psycho technologies i remember watching week four and then rewatching like i came into awakening from the meeting for instance around like week two or three and so like week four or five i thought there was only going to be like i couldn’t imagine 50 episodes my brain didn’t know he had never said anything i’m going to by the way skin in the game and i mean i need to call something out of revaki because i love revaki i want different constructive criticism of that community but in that week four where he’s talking about that that movement of agency and those little nitty-gritties that you need technical terms for you can’t just on the fly say something sometimes you need a technical term you need the right word to say the thing and that’s when i heard a psycho technology it clicked for me like and it’s especially is that uh you know language one of my favorite quotes is every word is a fossilized poem which means most of the time when you’re speaking you’re you’re speaking in huge huge movements even if you’re saying a little or mark twain quotes are very good because he’ll go out of his way mark twain has an awesome letter to a friend and that’s like a run-on five pages and in there he says i’m sorry i didn’t have the time to write you a nice short message i’m in a hurry that’s why you have this long rambling five pages usually when i have time to write you i write you within a page it’s real terse and everything i want to say is there and mark twain is saying something so amazing there because because that’s why mark twain is mark twain but mark twain is kind of showing this principle of when when you say something well it actually has to be said with less and the less you say it with the more you are able to say leaders eat last there’s a lot of these people trying to proceduralize this i don’t think they work so how about this if we redefine a psychotechnology or a good psychotechnology or just technology as such is is attunement to an angel so i mean because because because what what what it ideally would do is is it would put you in right relationship with a subset of intelligibility right and i that subset of intelligibility would be that which holds the message from god right or am i not too far off like that no no some things you’re definitely playing around but give me a sec attunement to an angel angel is ingellos just means like a messenger so you’re tuned to a messenger or something and messenger contains the message right yeah but it also implies it’s not a stable thing an angel doesn’t an angel is simultaneously especially okay theologically speaking your guardian angel is with you right now and is in the courtyard like in the presence of god on your behalf it’s not like he has to fly back and forth well yeah but i wouldn’t say that they’re the same thing but okay well they but but a guardian angel doesn’t follow time space rules it’s it’s message delivers so that’s why i’m saying attunement to an angel that allows me to have access to an eternal principle so i’m agreeing with you i’m just saying these eternal principles um aristotle 101 any virtue pushed to an extreme becomes a vice you don’t want to just listen to your one angel your angel is directing you toward is bringing you there’s a choir of angels yeah you need to triangulate right at least yes yeah then yes then i’m then i’m with the attunement thing of the choir like yeah i would argue that if if you’re attuning to just one angel right which which is what what happens in polytheism i guess somewhat right you’re resonating with just the one wavelength and that that inevitably leads to corruption right um are you familiar with enoch at all it’s a extra biblical story enoch is referenced so it was probably part of the canon at one point but got kicked out at some point yeah saint jude quotes it a couple people in the new testament quote from it and uh what’s interesting right it kind of at least one major part of it revolves around the watchers which was a group of angels sent to basically uh take care of earth to watch over over earth and uh they end up corrupting and basically falling in love with the things that they are supposed to be um overseeing in some sense um and then right this is where the the nephilim or nephilim what what the giants yeah yeah that’s enough yeah yeah that’s enough are born from is is basically these angels finding human women so in some sense that we could look at that story and go okay well that’s what happens when something over tunes to a single channel a single voice right there is a apparent corruption in it and it’s as much as because that top thing is being pulled down into a realm that it shouldn’t yeah it’s fallen right be involved right it be involved with yeah that’s Satan here are three people should know so there’s Satan whatever he’s important ish he’s not in charge of anything he’s just a good liar he’s the deceiver he tricks you into thinking he’s in charge of stuff he’s not in charge the demons are a horde of animals they’re not a hierarchy okay in this horde of animals you have three other that are important one is in enoch it’s a zazel a zazel gives metal working um i would say copper wire um tools metal working also gives uh makeup iron work exactly yeah yeah that’s all tools yes yes and then the other two that most people should know is uh mamon so christ talks about mamon christ talks about mamon that’s money that’s the love of the worship of money um that that’s potential and then well money is has to do with the stomach the word also has to do with your gut it has to do with your it’s your impulses that are not at all and there’s no defining thing above that impulse it’s it’s like the hedonism sort of it’s circular so that’s mamon yeah and then so that’s mamon and then it’s a serious which is really yeah yeah the scariest of these three so that’s a zazel and a zazel is when they uh do the scapegoat and they slap the goat and they put all their sins on it and send it out that’s to the demon of that’s a zazel he’s the demon of the deserts okay so zazel mamon that’s money christ says it’s easier for someone to walk for a camel to walk through the eye of the needle than someone who loves mamon to to get into the eye or get into the heaven because you cannot worship two things if you worship your your these earthly lovely things so in fact the next one’s molok molok’s the scariest molok in my opinion is game theory there’s a daniel schmockenberger talk on the stoa where they when the stoa is in their prime it’s when they let people just go where what have you not shared before we’d like to hear what you’re thinking about those are the good stoas and in this stoa he has it’s daniel schmockenberger talks about converting molok from sith to jedi the metaphor he uses for molok here is darth vader who who defeats the emperor it’s not luke skywalker luke skywalker can’t walk up and just cut down is it who defeats the emperor darth vader molok this thing that’s game theory the one that was playing the system all the way to the max it was at the highest level that’s the only thing that can overturn that’s why christ doesn’t call in angels to like overthrow rome or whatever he let’s he it’s very difficult but molok mamon and azazel are three things that people need to know are real spirits gabriel’s real michael’s real all these good ones are real the devil’s really good at deceiving he has probably five names he usually goes by the devil or satan some people pull them apart they might be one but there’s up to five names and the three important ones that i would not say are they’re not the diablo they’re not the advocate against you they’re not the opposer like azazel has his own thing molok has his own thing mamon has his own thing and there was a tweet in the bridges of meaning discord somewhere it was hysterical because i don’t go on twitter but it was like americans are like i’m fiscally mamon but i’m socially molok that’s how they vote or something and i was like wow and then like one tweet that nobody knows what they’re talking about except for people who read the bible but like wow you’re fiscally mamon and socially molok yeah that’s is how they all vote like yeah that’s how we all voted i don’t know it’s pretty fucking startling what is happening but yeah i i find a lot of that they slide together and people think that hell is ran like an organization but they’re a horde of animals why would they they’re not in a council agreeing it’s not the it’s the bad guys against the justice league the doom lex luther and then legion of doom isn’t it something like that yeah i think it is yeah i don’t know i’m not big on the yeah but it’s like when i was a kid i just remember looking at that and i’m like why aren’t they killing each other like if if badass over there is mr murder face then why is he listening to this bald bastard to talk instead of ripping his throat out and saying now i have your shit like right that’s not how you’re buying what’s the unifying principle and then holding this together yeah what’s actually great is if someone’s in the mood for a lighthearted video i don’t know the channel it’s escaped my head but there’s an awesome video on this subject about venture brothers because in the venture brothers you’re following the bad guys but they have a strict rule book and in fact when you become a bad guy if you don’t have an a nemesis like a arch nemesis they give you like a list of potential arch nemesis and they have you go through and you make introductions it’s just like it just shatters the way people think of the world because it’s it’s a silly cartoon but it’s so potent that show i mean i think probably a lot of this is coming off the tail end of world war ii because i think before and that might be a little too late in the cycle but certainly when you you have an older conception of evil is that which is in some sense equalized right it’s there it’s a horde there’s no there’s no structure to it there’s not this strong down chain and then world war ii happens and we go oh order can be just as evil can be just as terrifying right this hard structure that pushes everyone towards a certain so it seems like now we’ve forgotten all the old conceptions of evil we’ve forgotten the hordes and now what we are fighting against as the image of evil is this hyper organization right now murder can sit pleasantly at the table with bald guy petting the cat you know like and we don’t know why right in some sense it has to do with again a confusion about teleology you know and that is what is holding that’s what held the nazi party together right they had a clear teleology they had to or else you couldn’t have held the whole structure together and that’s what i think you’re referencing is ridiculous when you see murder face and sitting at the league of evil is that without a clearly defined telos right you can’t have a room full of jokers you know like there has to be some like telos to their evil or else it makes absolutely no sense it’s a ridiculous concept it’s a counter it’s a self-destroying concept well so the way i translated these three drives three motivations right it’s like drive expression and and then the path right so there’s there’s the reason then the way that which allows for the reason and then the navigation of the reason right and and what is that well that’s basically what the ego is right that’s that’s the three components of the ego oh shit okay i’m gonna have to find a time stamp i’ve already promised two or three so i have to so i can actually give you them all okay there’s um the jingle jingle problem guys heard ravik you talked about this no jingle jingle okay the jingle jingle problem um okay we just you just gave me an insight on how i can actually grok this problem which is a hard problem so the jingle jingle problem is something like this there are there’s two movements to it so when i’m describing one you’ll probably think of the counter and i’m going to go there too one of the jingle jingles is something like um different fields keep coming across the same discovery now that we’re able to capture data and aggregate it correctly once you have enough data and you’re able to see it in the right fractal scale or time frame or whatever you need certain patterns emerge then they’ll name those patterns cause the effect blah blah blah many of those that’s the jingle jingles actually gonna tie in now there’s the other why it’s the jingle jingle is they’ll name this thing without knowing that there’s already a paper out explaining the exact same phenomena okay because it may be over one over so the same phenomena has the same name or different names over and over name they called the jail they are calling it they called the jingle then there’s the other jingle jingle problem which is i’m in this field and um i find this thing so i name it this thing so it’s called this you’re in a field you find another discovery and you name it jangle i’m in this field i find it’s a completely separate discovery name it jangle right people then coming through their schools they learn jangle they learn jangle you and i are now talking when i say jangle you unpack this epistemology this taxonomy and i that’s the jingle jingles there’s two that was for vicki’s lecture about mine oh yeah right he was pointing out we have a bunch of jangles and they’re all pointing to different things yes and then but that’s what’s terrifying is they actually this problem isn’t just a one-way thing it’s like right we can read it you know like and what you were just stating to me really hit because that’s that’s why we need these things to be pushed up um skin in the game again i got really upset when nathan was talking to vicki recently couldn’t even watch the interview yeah i couldn’t even watch the interview when paul put it on his channel i had to put it on times like two almost i think it was on 0.75 because i was like okay paul put it on here and paul has taught me to listen to people that i want to punch so i’m going to like really fucking listen here he is like it’s like you guys talking to me like and i was like mother oh it’s one of the what i saw him doing was trying to explain something in just the clip he then went on to try to explain something and vicki in the most canadian polite way was like yes that’s why in my theory of relevance realization i talk about this thing here’s and he goes and explains it to him like holding his hand very nice and i am grateful that we have people in those positions who can handle that because if i was in verveky’s situation i’d be like did you even read my paper if you didn’t you do know like i have like published papers i have students with like many sites like i opened my own lab i’m in charge of an entire section of the uft like i’m not just some guy why would you treat like there’s something that needs to be filtered i think that word hasn’t been used but it just came to mind filtered or the grim grizz thing when he’s talking about the dunbar number how do we fix that there has to be something so so that’s also a reason why why the hierarchy is objective right because at a certain point you can’t give that much space to the freddy impulsion right like that’s like it’s it’s a different way of participating right and if you want to build high in in a direction right like people are going to be left behind right and and i i agree with you right like for veyke for veyke had multiple talks with people where i was like appalled by how he was treated right and yeah so i i don’t i don’t think he seems to notice it which which is maybe good for him in in one way but in another way it’s it’s horrible because like i don’t i don’t think those conversations are productive because i don’t think he’s he’s helping these people like because they’re they’re not on the level that they have ears to hear and that’s maybe about the problem is do you have ears to hear and eyes to see because if you don’t have ears to hear and eyes to see then maybe you shouldn’t be here and you should be somewhere else well i’m thinking two metaphors because the seed metaphor matthew used it a lot in his little awesome did you guys watch that matthew pageau talk raise on the porch yes yes that was awesome i only saw the clips that paul uh he talks about the seed in there but it’s it’s just it’s just fun because he doesn’t want to talk and so he has the same thing the whole time like how he thinks is more like me like i talk about the same stuff without repeating myself but i’m not to make fun of jacob again i don’t just say the same thing i’m trying to come back at it and see where i’m at i’m not trying to define where i’m at trying to get relative yeah you’re trying to see the movement in the elephant as opposed to the elephant yeah and it’s driving me nuts that that that coordination so in this little corner because we’re just talking about technologies and stuff i want to what what alliteration in my opinion is a powerful technology you go to the oldest english poems they’re written in alliteration okay so when i say recursive relational relevance realization or secret second sacred second self when i put paul and urbex together and go how this do both is that one of them says one and once they’re just like okay all four like secret secret second self yes and why because it you can’t forget our language is built with this internal logic you have vowels and you have consonants alliteration is an unbelievable the most the longest psalm if you have you ever listened to well i think it’s psalm 114 or whatever um i might have the wrong number but it’s the longest psalm and it’s written in alliteration and if you listen to someone in hebrew speak it i had a friend who’s mack mitzvah she got up and read that and kind of melodic she was she wasn’t just like reading it how i would read it had this movement and then because she understood the alliteration it’s what her grandma taught her so she could know some hebrew so when she was doing her bat mitzvah that’s what she just read because it was the most comfortable thing and it let everybody see she can go through all the pronunciations um here’s where i see this turn darkening so i’m about to black pill for a minute so this is what i need help with it’s where i’m sitting in black field land all the time so help me out all right um my one of my first conversations with jacob was about the word shibboleth and mark and i had some good conversations because mark does data and stuff like that so shibboleth is something like a data cache for your passwords nowadays but the word shibboleth in hebrew is the outside of the stock of grain so it’s the thing you like wipe away and throw away why the word matters is because during the i think it’s in the neo-assyrian israelite war which is when the neo-assyrian army and the 12 or the 10 northern tribes teamed up against the two southern tribes you would think that the two southern tribes would lose but they didn’t because god was on their side read the bible at the end of the battle the the men who were trying to flee away from the battle they want to act like they are from the two southern tribes so what the soldiers of the two southern tribes did was line up in a river and they called people to cross the river one at a time and if you are a fighting-age male they made you say the word shibboleth if you said it with a lisp so if you said shibboleth they stab you and dropped you in the river and let your body go down the river because you’re a lot you were you had just been trying to murder us with a foreign army you’re not our friend right now and our culture now has these shibboleths why i need to help black billing is because i had to deal with bs a lot and we have this rtx or whatever the fuck guy his his speech recently his texts came out he even used the word shibboleth he said our culture right now is something like if you know the right shibboleth to say you can get with you’re just gonna do what you need i see that glitch happening here because then you do have people who i feel are not now jacob i feel very good faith i don’t get along with him and i sometimes kind of rude to each other but the last few times you’ve actually great i showed him some black hebrus and i was like yeah these people are flat out racist i don’t like them they’re ruined everything i’ve ever enjoyed that they’ve gotten involved with sucks so when he was doing that little thing i’m all for jacob and then there’s other people i don’t want to name them all but like on the verveki whoever’s on the back end of verveki’s management of his channel is not verveki’s friend why do i know this when i go to the playlists on verveki’s youtube channel after a lex friedman interview the playlists are still not in order there’s still random music videos in them they’re not one two three it starts episode seven eight nine ten one two what the hell you just got so much access and then people come here take one look it’s two clicks i go to his page i get to his playlist and then i see they don’t even make sense oh this isn’t this guy is not real now verveki’s 100 legit someone who ever has that responsibility is failing that responsibility and costing our community that’s a fractal thing and i could name names responsibility needs to be held you’re fucking up things for things i care about i don’t agree with revaking on everything his cognitive cultural grammar project matters it is saving lives someone who’s going to fuck that up by not managing his just give it over there’s other people who will manage it for free who will do a great job and he’s too nice and this is out of love because i’ve spoken revaking on q and a’s and many times but it’s just in chats and emails but that that those hiccups and i saw that happen first with the portal i’ll also name names there they’re all well-named names the portal administration at the beginning destroyed that community they became this insular little thing where they they knew the right shibboleths to say and if you couldn’t do the right thing if you hadn’t watched every single episode of the portal you didn’t know this one thing oh you’re not really in we just we know you’re not and there was just like this and that’s the worst and so it’s great to know we’re not aiming for that but it just sucks because i see the only way to kind of help people on ramp is to teach people this jargon we’re not we’re not talking in alliteration to be annoying it’s why right when you’re when i’m when i’m talking about concepts that requires you to read like six papers when i say like papers with abstracts full sign and i can just say recursive relational relevance realization what are we talking about this right here we’re talking about collective intelligence gathering how communities congregates together paul’s worried about how he’s talking heads and he’s talking tracking andrew tater to tape something i don’t know all these guys but he’s tracking people i don’t pay attention to i used to love the vlog brothers for example like i used i i have um um the one that was turned into the movie with william defoe i read that while in the operating room of a loved one not a good decision very emotionally i love but to see the see paul actually steel man these people he brought i’ve got to see the vlog brother say he’s wrong and paul goes look at this guy noticing something’s wrong i’m going like i’ve written these people off but because we have this collective intelligence someone else can be nice maybe there’s something there from these people i just named and insulted that i’m missing but maybe it’s just going to take some time for those fruits to grow and so i can’t see it here there’s genuinely nothing for me to see so like we were talking about i guess separating the weed from the chaff i guess that that’s that’s what we’re talking about right well yeah that’s the word shibboleth but it’s also truly what is there has to be a judgment call and where does that fall so when i was mentioning okay so so i i i well there’s one thing right good faith right like this is the thing that’s been spinning around in the background of the conversation oh we all have a good faith conversations it’s like last week i said to mark good faith isn’t enough you also need to be constructive right because that’s that’s the thing that i walked into in the live stream right it’s like yes you you you you’re hearing good faith right you’re willing to listen right you want to you want to have your your obligations right you want to go through them right like and you’re willing to spend time with me to explain all of that it’s like i don’t i don’t need your objections right like either i’ve resolved them for myself or like they’re not relevant or whatever right like i want to be constructive right and and so there’s there’s there’s a different judgment there that that that if a person is in good faith they still might not be able to participate and and even if a person has valuable contribution right but they’re too far away from well the the language that’s being used right they get at a certain point that that becomes a burden that’s not worked right like like there needs to be a privileging of manifestation in the world of manifestation in the world and when when we’re dragging away from the manifestation in the world too much right because we need to have the grace right then that that needs to be stopped right and that needs to be curated i have a rubber meets the road example because um right here is the box and sally which she mailed me some like pictures in so it’s like has a little thing that sally mailed me a couple pictures once and we were talking about some of the chat texts because i participate and uh but i oh yeah see yeah exactly so um yeah she it’s great and um we’re talking about the marriage chat in particular and i was feeling quite coy i guess and i said i guess you should have to show the moderators your marriage license or like a picture of you and your spouse current to be able to talk in the marriage chat and if not it’s just read-only and i think stuff like that would be awesome because that would piss people off but like if you go back to the beginning of that chat you can see me and other married people talking about actual married problems i’m not going to leave my wife telling me that i could that’s get the fuck out of this trap that’s not what i’m here for i’m looking for solutions to how do i deal with my wife and then here come a bunch of single people offering me advice who don’t have a wife or a husband get the fuck out you don’t know what it’s not like you don’t know what you’re talking about you just nothing you can say to me it’s nothing personal i’m i’m 31 years old and my stepson is 19 holds a job has graduated and is going into college now how many people are in my fucking predicament very few all right my kid is 11 years old younger than me like that is not something that most people have fucking clue what to do with and like so that’s why i want skin in the game some of these betting things we need to find places where anybody can listen you’re welcome to participate in some way but sorry when a married person is asking how to have this difficult conversation with their loved one maybe you just let the conversation be empty you don’t have to fill it in if you don’t know what you’re talking about and that’s dealing with that discomfort or when you and i talk about intimacy we mentioned that discomfort level many times and that’s well and there’s a there’s an anxiety and stuff like that and wanting to fit in and wanting to be relevant and stuff like that and each channel can have their own i mean not every channel would need that that was just me being kind of hyperbolic and silly but it was that that’s what it’s between married people right like a conversation is reading the spirit or the talos right and and contributing to the talos and if you’re if your contributions to the conversation are protesting right or or egocentric right like they’re sucking it towards yourself as opposed to going towards oh man like that there’s two and i think you need to have to have the kiddie pools right where these people can can train and and and like yeah you need you need you need to keep them out of some purposes like there’s a reason why we’re on on a zoom call right like there’s a reason and nick you should say something yeah i mean i’m so there’s several issues when it comes to this again seeing the back end for a very long long time of a lot of this one you have the the over-complexifying issue so you end up with a unnavigatable space particularly when someone new comes in and they look at the discord and it’s just a thousand topics and they don’t know how to navigate them what the vetting processes are for each one so that’s kind of a limitation of the tool itself the other possible solution is that people would have a higher threshold of imposing the organization themselves so in that marriage channel they see the people that are giving good answers they see the people that are giving useless answers they go and find those people with the good answers and go and go hey do you guys want to go talk over here you know so they create their own filter for no that’s the protestant thing like no looking for because because there’s there’s a distinction there right like so there’s public space right and effectively what you’re saying is let the bullies bully you away it’s like no you kick out the bullets like you can’t let the police because because like skylight might have this problem and there might be this third person that’s like just reading and working and and doesn’t dare to participate and then it’s gone right like the relevant information is is is dragged out of of the space which was there for gathering right so there is a value in in holding this this for the next generation and that’s that’s one of the things that i i want to achieve right it’s like well we there’s principled ways of relating right so one of the things that i and mark came into is like oh like this materialism right like it’s like like almost all problems are reducible to to the materialist mindset right and and and there’s ways to recognize right and if you teach people that right then they can quickly identify oh you’re making this mistake and and then build a relationship to that mistake right and and and so that that is an essentializing of the thing that like we had well it was it was the jingle jingle problem right like we saw the same thing but we didn’t realize it was the same thing right oh see and again it’s not i mean i think that’s a totally valid criticism that you made uh the problem is that i don’t see a good solution uh particularly given the tool that this is all operating within um you can form a harsh boundary and go okay well we’re just going to kick out all the people that said something wrong in the middle of what otherwise would have been a good conversation but maybe that person had valuable stuff and they were just pissed off or they were triggered because their ex-wife showed a similar pattern of behavior as this one person right so you need flexibility and people that show a persistent pattern of bad faith um you know interaction generally do get kicked out of the group you know they they really do we just get rid of them that was actually probably one of the nicest parts about joey is he just would do it whereas nowadays it’s like a constant argument over is this can we do something to help this part can we one of my favorite conversations with joey ever was me sending him a pm and me being like is this guy like sincere or not because i was trying to feel and then joey’s like he’s been at this for three days or something like that and i was like check and then joey just like let me off the chain i got to just be totally just anything this guy said i did it back to him right and then he then he called me on it and i was like well i’ve i don’t like bullies in fact my dad calls me an anti-bully and i can see them because i’m a really good bully i bully people till they fucking give up on life so if you come in here and start bullying people pisses me off and like i’ve acted that way to mark and manuel like i love them because they still are night like though two weeks later they’ll be like i see what you had there and i’ll go yeah i was a little too much i’m glad you you see i wasn’t right because i was over here but you can also see that you needed to move that direction and it’s like that allows it and then mark and manuel and i not necessarily friends under the definition of normal were certainly fellows and i was really troubled with this problem so here’s my lord of the rings thing i’ve been in a class with father stephen on this i don’t like defining myself against things i just don’t i almost became a republican because i hated the democratic party and then you know i just don’t like that movement and i’ve been really wrestling on how is it that you then properly oppose something that needs to be opposed and then i reread the title of the first book okay what is the ring in in his universe what is the ring it’s the thing we need to destroy it’s the thing that magnifies your virtue whatever you have if you’re sneaky diminutive makes you that if you lead men everyone will follow you whatever you have the ring magnifies we need to take that thing and cast it into the fires that made it and how do you find it the fellowship of the ring yeah but it’s the fellowship of the ring they they are in fellowship in opposition to a thing that they know they must destroy but it’s not a it’s not a see that that’s all my words are wrong see that like i could feel myself saying it wrong right there it’s like a proper opponent processing or something but it’s they know this thing is an actual absolute bad you can’t get a demon to repent so my question for stephen was about orcs for example demons don’t repent angels don’t repent they’re not going to change their mind their mind is made they have a different mind than you and i you and i have a spatial temporal mind that’s what our that’s what the gift of death is it’s why god made us mortal so that we have the opportunity to repent and change so we don’t have to be stuck as the bad things when we’re veki like the smartest thing i’ve heard rebeke say of the two things i was about to mention uh is when you talked about i don’t want to be immortal because i’ve made awful things like if i was no thanks i’m good i’ve actually thought about this one thankful for that gift of mortality when you actually can appreciate the vantage and then all these problems i can’t find it right now but i know he talks about it when he talks about agape this is rebeki and he’s also talked about it recently with egocentrism most of this has to do with the jingle jangle it’s actually originally why i brought it up now that i think of it most of the cognitive biases we keep finding that are reportable over and over are probably ego blind sight bias if you look at that one and then map they map on to like most of the phenomenology of phenomenological biases human nav it’s just unbelievable because and even when i’ve looked up the notes but i can’t find the right thing when verbeke talks about um agape that type of thing um a child’s sense of love is they’re giving and becoming one that’s very egocentric perspective but from the parent’s perspective it’s not egocentric at all because as the parent you are no longer the center of your salience landscape your child is the problem with the metaphor of turning is that all turning is still egocentric so that’s i remember the first time i heard that that’s why i have this notes of someone uh copy this is from episode 16 of awakening the meaning crisis just reading notes and stuff from it that’s that’s that movement i keep saying because like i want this vetting thing but then i see shibboleths made and i’m against and it’s like i don’t know how to get out of this every answer i see i can instantaneously tell you the second order effect and why it’s gonna undo itself yeah but that’s just why you need to die i see that was very casual that was very casual that’s just why you need to die i want a clip of just that you know like okay guys i’m kind of black pulling i need help and then your answer 20 minutes later well that’s why you just need to die right no but like it’s really simple right like like what is it what is a tool a tool is a local manifestation right so if the tool can ever become the purpose because if the tool becomes the purpose then you have corruption the tool is there to manifest the talos and when the talist has been manifested you’d let it go like you don’t hold on to the tool yeah pause pause video yesterday okay paul’s video yesterday said it wonderfully which was like the point of my channel is to get people to stop watching youtube so much and it’s like i would love to look at the backend analytics of paul’s channel and see if that happens see if people engage with this content and then stop i don’t watch youtube nearly as much i have like specific thing academy of ideas very specific chains of thought that i’ve been following for a while that i want to see what they’re up to i’m subscribed to a lot of people philosophy tube i don’t agree with them i’ve been watching them for a long time i’m up to date on philosophy tube down to the manouche because there’s consequence in this world there’s millions of people every upload following that chain of thought i need to know where it’s headed like i knew about her transition way before because it was fucking obvious just go watch the first couple videos on philosophy tube and go watch where when she came like it just you can see things it’s like me watching matrix with my mother my mother is a devout christian she’s a fundamentalist she’s not going to die she’s going to fly one of those i love my mother she genuinely doesn’t understand what i’m talking about when i talk about some of this stuff though like especially when we get to like what i was just talking about that like nitty-gritty getting out to like the weeds where some people genuinely have just lost track they don’t know why that vein’s there but if you’ve been following these people for years you can see entire communities have started and broken off and come back and these huge chains of thought and that’s what i was talking about paul earlier paul van der clay it’s nice to have someone like him takes such a broad view every once in a while he’s talking about like people that i just don’t track and he’s like oh look they’re doing the same thing as us and i’m going huh and then you know 30 minutes into his video i’m like okay i’m starting to see why paul can click this and this they look like they’re separate puzzles but they actually do belong to the same puzzle set you know i think getting pulling back a little bit to the how do you navigate some of these problems in these spaces like the vetting problems the you know how do you keep the valuable people around it is again one i think there’s a confusion which is that so much of the group is concentrated around one thing that in itself is not meant to be any of those things right there’s not meant to be a vetting a strong vetting process on bridges of meaning right so then where my mind automatically wants to go is well you have all these bridges crossing between territories it seems like the best answer is a kind of pragmatic multiplicity if people want to take the wisdom that they have say about the marriage topic and concentrate it and make it available and have a stronger vetting process right they’ve built a little a little mini town or maybe just a tavern where it’s not you know this place where everyone with their crappy opinions and their great opinions are all kind of crossing paths and smushing into each other now it’s going to lose a lot of um the life and excitement that comes from smashing heads with people and doing all of that type of thing but you are going to get a concentration of the wisdom of people that have actually you know gone through these experiences and have something valuable to offer so that’s where my mind always wants to go for the solutions now i think there is a kind see i the problem is as i can hear myself i’m speaking bottom up bottom up over and over right and what i’m hoping is that there’s some congealing that takes place naturally right the fittest rise up and there’s something about them having attained that status that makes them that i don’t believe in that well this is so fun i all of a sudden i’m seeing so you two need to go for two minutes and i’m just gonna like wait because i actually think i see what’s happening a little better the reason i i don’t believe in that is it’s the internet right right so there’s there’s too much competition and there’s too much irrelevant information and there’s no good way to separate relevant from irrelevant information and that’s why you need to hire it right like you need like and also right if you if you have the grand scattering right we have all these tribes move across the plains and put their own villages down at a certain point you’re you’re having the the horizon right like you you can’t keep track like there’s too many aspects that that are independent and so that’s the thing that you need to avoid and also right like there’s there’s these universal lessons right like this there’s these things you don’t want to reinvent the wheel over and over and over and over again and that’s what protestantism is doing it’s like doing that over and over and over it is and i agree but there’s value to reinventing the wheel over and over again as well because that happened when you in the catholic church too right right right well and i don’t want i’m not trying to perfectly map it onto a battle between catholic catholicism protestantism but um the point i was going to make is just when you reinvent the wheel your knowledge of it is at a much deeper level than if someone else taught you what a wheel was and exactly they might you know they’re a machinist they know how to make perfectly balanced wheels down to the you know thousandth of a millimeter and way way higher quality wheel than the weird bent piece of wood you’re trying to build in your backyard but when you go through the process now if you do encounter that information of that machinist with this precise information you actually know what to do with it you’re not you’re going from procedural into participatory right have a moment the technology is the recipe verbatim as you talked about that recently a recipe we take for granted i take a recipe back three thousand years ago what thermometer they’re going to use what’s their measuring that recipe it relies on yes tracking so so there is i guess my ultimate point there is that the re in what you’re calling the reinventing of the wheel is indeed inefficient if your goal is to make better tools that is inefficient you’re totally right but if your goal is to increase participation over procedure then it can be extremely valuable it depends on what your telos is ironically which is what we were talking about before so you know there’s value to each system i want to lay out what my my vision is right so there’s the component of of having receiving the outsider right or or even maybe gathering the outside from somewhere else right so there’s there’s relation to the new right which is interpersonal really private right and then above that right like when when there’s when the the thing is put into the tree what was it again grafting grafting when it’s grafted right like then you do the practice right and like the practice is is the acclimation i guess to to the new environment right and and part part of that is is like some some structured course that you might follow right like for example to better understand yourself in social relationships or whatever that whatever that’s going to be it’s not relevant right or a book club right like right it can hold many forms right but so those are like the propositional things like the recipes and and then the practice is more like how do i participate in the wisdom or whatever that that i’ve received right and those are the components necessary for the transformation right and then i i want to have two other parts right like what is related to youtube right and organizing around youtube because like i think that’s the biggest draw and i think there’s also a valuable project that needs to be expressed outside of discord or the communal spaces right so that that’s one thing and you want to have organization around that and another part is art right like i want to have art that is related to the this this corner of the internet right it’s getting all these principles and taking them out of abstraction and putting them into a board right like an icon that that allows people to see why it’s relevant because i don’t i don’t i don’t think people should participate in this corner of the internet right not because i think it’s bad to participate in the corner of the internet but right like some people just can’t right and it’s also not relevant right like they need there needs to be a way in which these these wheels are are sold on the side of the road right and like people don’t need understanding of wheels to use wheels like sometimes you just need a wheel and sometimes you need people that can produce wheels and sometimes you need people who know why wheels are there and why what you should change about the wheel because it is part of a vehicle and and so that’s kind of the way that i’m thinking this is relating to what favek said right we don’t need everybody to be wise we just need more wise people right yeah i mean i don’t i don’t disagree with any of that again i think where i the only place where i struggle is in it probably is the protestant versus the catholic thing ironically um the manner in which one yeah maybe not uh the manner in which one actually uh goes about building and trying things out and seeing what and seeing what what systems work what usefulness that they’re playing to people allowing for people um yeah i don’t know and so much of it is bound by the the forums go for it skyler i think i have something that’s i hope this all clicks because this is this is rough okay i remember the first time looking at my national science of mental illness the logo looks like a skeleton hand or something and what it is is grassroots i had to be told that and all of a sudden i was like oh it makes perfect fucking sense as soon as i as soon as they said it i was like the color as soon as soon as soon as i saw the color-schemed one it was like obvious but where the largest grassroots organization in over 40 years old yada yada they are proud of that so they wanted that to be the logo i remember when i saw the bridges of meaning logo i can’t find this note but it like popped in my head i could like i closed my eyes and i could see my writing so the bridges of meaning logo has some things with like a bridge that kind of forks at the bottom but it’s kind of distorted you know it’s like on purpose not super clean okay anyways this is going to take a few minutes but i really hope this all works together okay the metaphor i then brought was lungs i saw bridges of meaning as something like the lungs in the body of the christ okay you have two lungs it looked to me like the bronchial tubes sorry i deal with nerd stuff all day and i have enough hospitals and a lot that’s just looked like the when i’m trying to give people the actual what’s happening you don’t want it to look like what it really looks like you give them this like caricature model of how the body works when you’re teaching them the basics but how the body works you mentioned nitrous oxide so what kills many deep divers and stuff is nitrous oxide reuptake if what you’re panicking is when you’re 50 that’s what your body starts doing those hiccups and stuff i see the bridges of meaning as something like the lungs now this is going to go into a fancy word so this is where um word skyler i love theology uh like breaking out of words i’ll just need a moment but i really want you guys to think about the word diaspora so a diaspora it has to do has multiple terms that’s the issue so diaspora means something like to sew over but it technically the greek and stuff is that that means to sew over like to plant over something the diaspora comes like the term why we know the term is when you live in exile so has you a math of gageau talks about um the two modes of being when you are living in a foreign land or living in exile that is when you’re in the diaspora but the word also diaspora also has something to do with a a moving out and a moving back the diaspora necessarily shoots out cultures and then they come back what you’re tracking when you’re tracking the hebrew bible is how the spirit of this single culture managed to make it through exile and babalon exile in new assyria i mean like they went through so much but they were so valuable that the foreign kings rather than kill them brought their most educated into their elite and just made them comply and that’s why the hebrews are almost all practicing hebrews hebrew people who are genetic and practicing the faith are bilingual or trilingual it’s a phenomenal giftedness to have something like that that one thing gives them a lot of cognitive grasp on the world simply because they have twice yeah twice the option so all of a sudden what i’m seeing is this diaspora and maybe especially when you and i mentioned going opposite ways but seeing the same damn stuff sometimes people are convinced we’re breathing in and maybe they’re breathing in and you’re breathing out so the same breathing techniques or maybe i teach breathing techniques so box breathing for box breathing that gets you really calm but if you’re getting ready to get in a fist fight you don’t box breathe you do vagal breathing like you pipe you’re almost hyperventilating on purpose and guess what you’ll be much better in that fight even if they choke you out you’ll just keep going because you’re anyways like depending on the situation and their framing and this is really making sense to me now because the metaphors of course mix but how do i say this uh there are oh god i didn’t see the metaphors totally fall apart here but it’s something like the body of christ or bodies of christ like it’s hard to represent this in time um yeah i guess that’s where i’m going to stop for now i’m thinking of cheesy stuff that people have shared chad shared like this poem where this person dies they’re introduced to the maker and the maker lets them know how the world works basically like a job if you’ve never read job this would be like whoa the end of job and then the maker goes okay i’m going to send you back down now nothing changes you’re just going to be another person so all those things that you did that were good you’re going to be benefited by and all those things that you did were bad you’re going to be hurt by and then and it’s like that’s niches eternal return like with one shift in it but like that idea i think is really well that’s reincarnation right yeah reincarnation but also without time most people think reincarnation and how can five people be napoleon you know that’s stupid it’s like well if you actually understand how reincarnation works we’ve all been napoleon you fucking idiot shows shows how you just clearly don’t understand like people don’t like arguing religion with me what’s that but i’m saying that’s rationale i can show you if if you have been napoleon it’s just as likely that we’ve all been napoleon that’s how that would work you dummy so the rationale doubles back on itself and that’s why i think the diaspora metaphor it’s not in all the translations but my favorite diaspora has to do with breathing you’re breathing in and breathing out and then the word’s been broken now but hegel’s best work has to do with alfabon which has to do with the word lift up so when christ in german when you’re reading german theologists they’re really onto something because christ says today you will see the son of man lifted on high that’s like such a tricky term in german it really says a lot because of all the backing in there and then that poetry doesn’t always transfer because something is preserved something is lost and something is found all in one movement and then when you think you can control that that’s marks marks took that and went oh i can i can make everything conscious and i’ll consciously control everything that i get rid of conscious control everything happens and that’s fucking crazy that’s just not the way i’ve got as your term reality objects and they just don’t want to admit it if i can so let me see i want to see if i can pull this back to the conversation manuel and i were having to see if i’m picking up your point correctly so in some sense you’re saying like right the body’s the metaphor that we’re looking for it’s what’s floating between each of our objections to each other and in some sense i’m going well bridge is the meaning is the lungs or right to use how you interpreted the symbol yeah and then i’m like well you can’t have the lungs beat the heart right because now all of a sudden it’s losing its its role within the organization and it’s supposed to be this really flexible membrane that takes in all the you know the world and combines all the spirits of the world right beautiful um and then at the same time it’s like manuel’s pushing back and saying but where’s the head the lungs are useless if there’s no head on the body you know like so in some sense it’s like how do we create a body where the parts are specified in their organization organs however are all teleologically linked meaningfully linked into a single being or grouping isn’t that what a zirus was cut in parts and spread across the land the land yeah yeah actually most early um creation myths uh revolve around a god dying and the bits and pieces of his body making up uh odin villian be yeah odin and his two brothers kill the supreme giant that was amorpous having children and offspring and just kept he didn’t have to have another partner to produce the original thing and when they kill it his brains are the cloud his blood is the water is you know that’s what they make the universe out of that’s every creation yep the greeks as well kill chronos and create the new pantheon of gods and in fact to incite smart things so if people are wanting to know something amazing peterson has picked up on is when he’s talking about mythology the because this is something i tried to explain my sophomore year of high school and i just had no words and then i was in a mythology class my next year for english and my teacher let us read so i got access access to that book really early like 2009 or whatever that is then so just lucky i had a really smart teacher anyways i kind of lost where i was going now but the maps and meaning thing is really important to where you guys are just headed so crap thinking big now well especially with what nick just said it like sparked something old from um peterson’s he has a specific point that i’m going to have to come back to it so if we talk a moment well well like the point that peterson makes is is is that there’s the outside right that’s the thing that you were highlighting earlier skyler right like where the revivification is coming from the outside right so the thing that’s been shattered is bringing back live and i think that’s also in the bible multiple times right so and and so but there’s a there’s a problem there right because i the the nation is never losing its identity right like everything is still organized under the same principle in all of these these stories and that’s not true on the internet so i i think there’s an additional problem okay it’s it’s not popping back what i was trying to say but it’s something with ology um when you mentioned the head i mean if you’re going to go with the christian metaphor christ is hopefully the head but let’s just look first back first chapter of john logos became flesh that’s christ becomes christ is the logos embodied correctly and what’s our ology what’s what are i like numerology but most people who study numerology have not they don’t know what i’m talking about hey because they’re studying like they want this codification i like looking at the way every culture has come across the same seven days over week i i like finding these weird things where it’s like how did that possibly happen they don’t have any root comments like how is it that there’s three language groups and i can show you that that’s from noah’s children like how is it all that accurate and um there’s really something there with what you were just saying both of you earlier about this these conflicting metaphors if we’re if we’re not we can’t even just i’ve just got a taxonomy if we don’t have a logos and ology we’re all under a pageau symbology right clearly cogsci revaki he wants for e yeah but cogsci isn’t a thing though like like rationality is where he’s aiming for but he’s trying to put that into other things he has that yeah but i don’t think you can better under that like i don’t think that agreed that holds anything but that’s what he i’m not i’m not i’m stealing any age of what i see them doing and not trying to that’s where i’ve that’s why i see him not wanting to take responsibility that’s why i did that call out earlier and hopefully someone from that channel sees it and does something because i just can’t be bothered right now and because pisses me off it actually genuinely like boils my blood when i see all that effort and energy going into something but it can be diffused by a few comments because of if i go on his playlists right now like i said they’re not they’re all jumbled gotta gotta so yeah and that’s that’s why you need a structure right to correct that sort of shit anthropology that’s literally that’s the only one i have and i’m trying to think of another and there isn’t we’re all studying anthropologists it’s like can you guys think that’s wrong i mean i’m trying to think i mean it’s certainly the closest of studies maybe psych psychology is becoming more dominant than anthropology because of how how locked we are in our own individualized selves but uh yeah but the anthropology even the word is metas is like person ology but it’s like um how an anthropologist has to work is go to the how an anthropologist has to work is go to the culture you can’t be an anthropologist of a dead culture you can only analyze something that’s dead anthropologists don’t have the tool of analysis that was actually a giant that’s a really important anthropology yeah yeah that’s really so much they can say it yeah so also and all early anthropology was just like the weird uh criticism or right this like this disconnected viewing of bizarre rituals it’s almost just recording what they saw people doing and then they realized that it’s way more effective to go participate in the culture and get a view of how the culture is operating from inside of its own world view and structure and right everything else you get a much more accurate accurate account right but then you have the example right like that the whole football vinegar was like reading this book and there’s a whole village looking at at the sea and they saw the sea spirit and right i was like what the heck well he even brings his kid out because his kid had been there that that guy was a christian guy who loses his faith over the decades of doing that work and when he’s telling that story he mentions that his child is there and his child’s been in that culture for most of his life for a couple of years in his formative life and i forget if it’s a boy or girl but he asks his child do you see it and the child doesn’t either and it’s like now what’s happening like so i’m thinking attunement to an angel still you said a couple things both of you that i’ve i’d really like to kind of curtail back into because that’s how i see conversations making sense because attunement to an angel i’m worried i’ve ever um probably more reification i do that even my own thoughts um one of my favorite little explications from paul vanderkley was describing his own way of dealing with things he gets into something and he jumps in both feet consumes all of it and after a week a couple weeks or a couple months it’s in him he and his terminology is colonized and like once you learn where he’s getting that term from it’s not him making it up random he’s taking that from someone else how how you colonize is you come into a culture and you you you exert your culture it’s not exactly i don’t have the right word you show the sovereignty you show how your culture well yeah superior by it consumes yours but preserves it it doesn’t just like annihilate yours yours can fit in mine because mine’s total right i can drink up all the valuable bits of yours while still holding my own and rome followed part doing that so i’m not saying it’s a good idea i’m just saying i’m it’s a very obvious step what what isn’t isn’t that what uh what peterson is talking about when he says uh in order to test the theory whether it’s correct i i want to have it apply in as many fields as possible right so if if your culture is correct like maybe it can absorb everything without losing its integrity um the the thing that so if you’re in super nerd stuff in philosophy and you study darwin he has a nominological network that’s the actual fancy term he basically showed this pattern and then showed this pattern and then showed this pattern if you read darwin like actually charl like really him that’s what he does and he set that principle and then what verveckis relevance realization and what most of these theories are doing is taking that they’re trying to show you here i can show you this this this this this this and then take on someone like pageau why does pageau click with these people when he talks about the farm he has a couple things where he slips up and explains i take a pattern that everybody just recognized and had an emotional cue to everybody saw this movie and they won’t shut up about this this and this i can’t believe so joker was a great example because i had a lot of fun because i just could tell they’re on jocking phoenix slipped in one of his recordings for the joker and you couldn’t tell if he was making fun of himself or pissed off at the public because he’s sitting there smoking between takes of the joker and this is like b-footage or whatever and he’s just like there it’s something happened where he’s being told about they’re making fun of him again on the media and he’s like i don’t fucking care like i’m a millionaire plant like i look he just like lists off like the iron man ranch sort of thing he was like fuck them he’s like he’s mad though he’s not like doing it in his class he’s sitting smoking a cigarette and on the set it looks like the scene where he kills his friend with a knife so he’s probably in a dark head space to begin with but that’s sincerely how i feel sometimes sometimes these joker moments and then pageau gets up explains this movement and why everybody came into the movie wanting this and then oh i don’t like the one percent but the one percent just attacked the guy he returned in self-defense oh my god so every one of your narratives any any narrative you came in with got shit on and then the guy who’s the movie taxi driver you know you looking at me huh you looking at me that actor is the man playing the bully who gets shot at the end it’s such a cultural meta if you know martin scorsese movies you’re sitting here like like i walked out of that theater and i looked at my my teenager and i was like you’re going to go watch these three movies like you’re going to go watch taxi driver first and then i couldn’t remember the name of the second and i’m drawing a blank now but the one where there’s it’s another jack nicholson movie or martin scorsese movie reason public not jack knows another martin scromese movie there’s reference and i was like if you’ve seen these stories and you go in you get a different telling here’s another great way i’m trying to make this more narrative by the way if you can’t tell that’s why i’m bringing in pop culture hopefully somebody knows at least a little about breaking bad and all that breaking bad came out and then better call sol came out better call sol takes place mostly before the show breaking bad i think it like overlaps or something i don’t know but there’s a character in breaking bad who’s my favorite character his name is mike he’s the fucking man he is so similar to my my step my brother-in-law brian it’s just unbelievable he’s the man i know someone like mike but my relationship with mike is from breaking bad which i know the end of mike now chad got to watch better call sol first which mike is around the whole time and he doesn’t know what happens to mike once mr uh mr white is involved in his life he doesn’t know he has a different relationship with mike it’s like watching star wars with my kid i grew up and then my kid was primed i was like we’re watching episode four episode five then we’re watching some of episode one all of two all of three and then we’re watching episode six why because that is the only way the story like if i could erase my memory and learn star wars those are the only things because then pieces fit in a different way and like my parents got to see the star wars they got to take me to the old theater these cultural stories hit beats do certain things pageo is able to pick up on that pattern show that pattern then go when you’re looking through your sock drawer and you’re like you know he’s talking for 20 seconds you’re going wait what you’re like hit the pause button and you’re like what is he fucking talking about you’re just talking about star wars and now he’s talking about can’t find a sock like how is he going to connect and he shows you the same pattern is a real pattern this is real and that’s why i’m talking about this breathing and breathing out if we’re going to have these groups of communities and they’re going to have different heads of the community and they’re all coming together and someone like paul he has a perspective he has a life experience he’s watched communities go up and down he’s able to take a much deeper step back than i am i’m 31 paul’s i think 62 if i remember i think right now he’s twice my age which is kind of a funny i can remember that and it’s it’s just very strange to see like i know quite a lot of people like paul so i don’t have to bug him because i have my own passwords that i get to pull he has enough people pulling but that perspective he brings it’s so vital and i’m glad he’s holding his ground and not wanting to take leadership in certain regards i’m glad that thumbnail where it’s mark and jacob as uh what’s her name the girl from jordan diaz the meme you guys see oh yeah the cat meme yeah the cat name the cat sitting there like i am in leadership or whatever it’s like you guys don’t understand the authority he has if he speaks wrong he’ll literally be kicked out of a church like the amount of authority paul is saying it’s just not authority in the arena you’re wanting him to comply in his is his is vetted back hundreds of years you’re wanting him to he’s you’re wanting him to join this thing that’s a couple years old when his kids are older than the thing you’re talking about and he’s from an institution that has centuries going back he’s like get bent why would i and i think people really don’t see sometimes where people are coming from there’s someone like the revaki on the rebel wisdom talks explaining his actual rationale if the if the u of t moved towards him he explained his rationale and i was like that’s the only time i’ve seen my balls i i want to push back i want to push back a little bit here right i’m with you sorry because there’s there’s what that is the spirit that we’re acting out and what is the story that we’re telling ourselves and reality is that which subjects so that’s all i’ll say about that yeah i’m guessing you’re being sensitive there um well no i think you’re on just thinking yeah still i don’t know timescales are funny timescales are funnier now than they’ve ever been well yeah like one of the things that myopia is all consuming i like that so so one one of the things that that i and mark have been talking about a lot is is sequence right so skyler was talking about this this oh we have these movies and they’re made out of sequence but even if you do the sequence it’s still not okay because like there’s something else which is privileged over the chronological and the internal chronological sequence right yep the symbolic sequence matters more than the chronological oh oh yeah well but but just just these concepts right and and i i think you’re on to something like right where this because because i was listening to this talk and skyler skyler’s gonna love this but robert wyatt talked to brad weinstein and yeah and they’re talking about this effectively conspiracy theory that brad is coming up with like he seems to be spouting a lot of thoughts maybe but whatever right and then what is what is brad’s justification for the conspiracy well he’s using a scientific analysis upon a multi-layered human structure right and he’s saying well a is the case and b is the case and therefore there’s a potential pathway through a and b to c and and it’s like yes but like there’s no way that causality works that way right it’s like like even even if that pathway is being followed that doesn’t mean that that it will have an effect in the world right like i think there’s so many layers within within that’s okay boom okay this is i’m gonna help steel man his thing because now i see he’s lived in a group that was under narrative capture right yes so with that narrative capture he knows the power if he’s a scientist and he thinks everything can be quantified and put into this algorithmic i’ve watched a lot of brad and he’s answering i think two or three of my questions and q and a’s and stuff interact anyways tracking very clear but he has a very obvious blind side which is his moralities like public policy like pa jo is able to just like really call him out on this and well he’s putting he’s putting reality in the social structure or morality in the social structure yes it’s like that’s and then and then i think because i’ve watched him recently one of my favorite in it or oh i could find it it’s like 114 or something it’s him and his wife on the couch and heather and heather just like actually corrects him like it’s so fun when heather when heather gets fed up because she has this tell i was raised by professors excuse me she has the exact professor tell of like i know when she’s like can’t not because she she hears her students in her head and she knows she taught them this thing so she knows anybody in that core group of people who spent years with her went to the forests with her who’ve took this theory and proved it in reality and here she is having to bite her tongue because her husband’s saying something she doesn’t agree with it had to do with narrative capture which my favorite one that she’s done that she’s done this more than once heather’s amazing but she talked about that narrative capture and she explained you brett you’ve been through this narrative capture on both ends when you were in college you defended i think it was a couple black girls who were getting used as a hazing for a fraternity and he like put himself at risk to defend these people that he had no obligation to defend and then he’s driven out of a campus for being white and going what the fuck i’m going to show up to campus i’m a teacher here and then he’s called racist so it’s like when you have that heart of a juxtaposition his wife looks at him and says most people just can’t even rock your world like you you have seen the conflict of narrative and this and now you’ve seen narratives that were wrong get the things you want accomplished why because he’s not as you were saying correctly he’s doesn’t have a really clear moral in my opinion at least he can’t ground out where his morals are which means he can be this winky washy when that gets really scary like did anybody watch dave chapelle’s monologue with his snl’s monologue his newest snl monologue dave chapelle’s it’s brutal you need to know what’s going on with khanye west and all that jazz and and he i hope snl is taking that direction i didn’t watch any of the sketches or anything but i did watch his monologue because he’s someone you need to watch also and in his monologue he said the funniest shit because it’s 100 true having been to a lot of bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs you’d have to just be wrong and and what’s funny is someone like jacob can explain the rationale behind it it’s not like wrong it’s just it’s how he says it it’s like if you’re black you’re a gang if you’re italian you’re a mob and if you’re a jewish that’s just a fucking coincidence and it’s like and then at the end he’s like i mean he lays in over 15 minute monologue he fucking lays in over and over and it’s like you can find clips on the internet right now it’s like two minutes of dave chapelle being an anti-semite and it’s like because he’s saying stuff that he’s pitched in la he said he pitched that material where there and he had them laughing at it fuck you it’s funny because he can get the people who are guilty of the chart it’s like that um that a canadian guy who goes around and makes kind of like racist jokes but to every community and if you look in his audience there’s like chunks of the audience just like waiting to get made fun of and peterson’s mentioned this guy also shultz no no no not shultz he dresses up in a nice suit and stuff shultz isn’t this guy this guy dresses up in a nice suit he’s sold out amphitheater comedian he’s he can really work a crowd when it’s big he has that pizzazz i could find his name if i look and um it might be but i don’t think it’s named shultz because he’s not a stage performer like that um he kind of started there i remember he did a lot of crowd work when i saw his early videos but now he pretty much just does the podcasting thing and i guess he had that special but i didn’t see it well riding the wave things like that that’s that’s what i see someone like peterson is aware of is writing those ways he had his own turmoil give these other people but we also have these little whirlpools some people just like their one section of where they are other people just want to explore you have these totally different ways of coming at things and i’m trying to think of another word of the anthropologist but honestly i think that’s kind of what i’m coming down to is it’s something like taking that approach in one of my favorite uh interviews is transliminal isn’t that mystic like is that what you’re talking about riding the spirit um what do you mean well like so so one of the things and like i keep dropping this ball but like i’m i i want to develop my spiritual sense right like i i’ve when we’re talking about tools right like i think there’s a spiritual intelligibility that you can commune with right and like i get tastes of okay of the spiritual intelligibility and i think what what you want to do is is you want to have that intelligibility communicated right like so not the spirit right because that’s like but you want to have to level up right like yeah you want to have the capturing of the spirit i want to ground this i think it was us that talked was it you that was in the conversation when we discussed Feynman or is that another person nick this is like i don’t know yeah okay i do feel like i talked about Feynman recently but yeah i don’t remember he had a technique where i essentially take someone so if you think you know what you’re talking about and he’s talking to other teachers and other people when you Richard Feynman extremely brave man extremely coherent speaker he’s the guy when the challenger blew up he’s the one who realized the o-rings shrunk and called out the group think in nasa this man is exceptional so Richard Feynman’s uh kind of litmus test similar to rogers explained the person’s back to them for him because they’re in theory but their theory needs to ground out his thing was um the first go of it it’s changed over the years um surely you’re joking mr feinman and all these books is you take someone from another field so if you’re in physics or you’re in theoretical math or wherever you are you take someone from an adjacent field they need to have some of the core basic principle they need to be not in your neck of the woods take them over here and if you cannot just explain to them what is happening well enough for them to discuss it back to people in your field then you don’t then you’re not actually fully able to grok it so now let’s explain it like i’m five that’s how our lexicon and our culture is taking on that ready phrase right yeah we simplified it but that if you look on an old thread if you look at you can find it if reddit doesn’t terminate my old thing was mr danielist um and i had a thread on that and i said hey here’s the lindy taking the lindy effect in this look that’s true that’s these are the same thing i didn’t realize jingle jingle at the time but that’s a really powerful um conception would you be able to explain that back to me manuel when i just said you did that not link i’d probably be able to explain that right so what what you what you want to do is you want to recognize when you explain things to people you want to recognize the extra abstractions so that you can correlate that to things that are intelligible to that person and um because they have the intelligibility they can they have sufficient bases to re-communicate that to a group of experts yeah and be able to get and get traction could do something with it it actually does practically land out i wouldn’t have to babysit them when they talk after if i did it right and that’s why i was thinking about explain it like it’s five that type of idea there’s something about these correct intuitions i love the word liminal those type of ideas you were talking about your intuition a moment ago medwell or maybe a few minutes ago now you when you when you were talking what i was thinking was when i was a kid i really hoped the way i saw things was actually more correct than wrong i didn’t want these like super materialist physics professors guys to be right i didn’t want us i didn’t want biology just to be stating off entropy that can’t just be what life is if it is if it is then what then fuck so if you can explain these really high level things and a little kid gets it and they realize oh their grandpa died where is their grandpa is he going in the dirt right now no his body is okay that doesn’t make sense where’s my grandpa going okay can you explain to a five-year-old at a funeral where his grandpa is what’s your answer there that lets me know just most of what i need for is in our thoughts and memories it’s like well that’s not good enough because then you watch the most depressing disney movie ever coco or whatever and it’s like when your family no longer remembers you you just cease existing what the fuck like do they not actually realize what that means like that’s that’s terrifying that’s the greek but even worse it’s like that’s what all ancestors basically thought more or less don’t get me wrong hopefully we have hope in the new resurrection but um yeah so i want that to be one of the protocols i think is if you’re actually a master in your area you should be able to do the explain it like i’m five type thing and we can’t vet people but boy i can tell you when you’re not doing it right and i can also tell when you are like you know like that’s the only way and that’s i’m looking at this definition of psychopathology like over and over and over trying to like i’m going to read it one more time because it’s been quite a while i i i want to introduce some concepts before that i think right so please go go the thing that i wrote down and we never talked about in relation to the psychopathology is psychopathology isn’t defined but it’s an identifying against right so in order to define a psychopathology to define the problem yeah this is um if you watch the verveki christopher master pietro and greg konrickis they’re taught the name of that series is psyche pathology why because they wanted to discuss the framework of a healthy mind when you study psycho pathology you are studying the negatives you are studying an unhealthy mind so it’s exactly correct which which exactly which which doesn’t have an identity right like because the opposite of the good isn’t anything and then you can say well like oh i have these dimensions and i i can i can put it on autism versus psychosis thing right it’s like yeah like is that the way that you should think about it like maybe well 80 if they yeah yeah if they’ve fallen into psychopath that’s what’s wonderful is like to double click again this is only a definition of psychopathology the psychopathologies have specific mental illnesses and that’s why when i go to define which mental illness it will be on a spectrum somewhere between here and here you’re either numb to the outside world or you’re perfectly aware and just don’t give a shit and then somewhere in between is kind of healthy we know those two extremes because you’re actually autistic people genuinely do not pick up on the social cues it’s not like they’re trying to um okay i i want to introduce a thing because i think the way i saw agape right like i was thinking well can animals have agape right and and and this was in relation to for fakie’s talk recently where he was he was doing this this thing where consciousness is is awareness of the outside and then awareness of the self and then awareness of being a self or something right and and he was trying to map that to the four p’s right which like i get why he’s doing that but i don’t like it at all right um and because i think i think they’re integrate right like i think these these aspects they’re they’re they don’t have independent existence but there there is an element in which the gazelle that the lion is chasing is allowing the the lion to gain an identity that’s separate from itself from itself and therefore become more of a person because the object of their identity is is in the transjective of of the lion with with the gazelle right and and therefore you you can’t maintain a solipsistic identity and be a good hunter right so in order to become a better hunter you you you you get drawn out you get transformed the spirit of the gazelle right well yeah or the the spirit between you and the gazelle right or the lion and the gazelle and i was like oh okay like if you start thinking like that right like there’s a and and and and then there’s there’s this this ego aspect which which is trying to i guess i guess reinstantiate the boundaries like suck it back in into the solipsistic perspective right and then i think at a certain point you you you get an escape velocity where there’s sufficient things happening outside of you that you’re outside of yourself so much of the time that you’re able to look at yourself or something and then there’s there’s this disorder aspect that starts happening anyway yes like that’s stuff anyway in relationship to the cycle well that’s to use paul van der kee’s speak it’s something like he uses consciousness congress correct that his speech and then i in in psychology and stuff you have a manifold of means and what you’re talking about is the eye so that’s in the in the elusive eye thing the self can’t see itself you can instantiate a me which is an aspect of yourself but once instantiated you’re looking at that aspect you’re not looking at the self right but you can circulate that you can circulate that that elephant and you can have intelligibility about the elephant and the way that it’s moving okay so now we need to decide this is this is a community-wide argument that i love now i’m on the this is how i’m going to use these words i don’t see them all as the same so i’m going to take a moment to move slowly and maybe we can wind around here for a moment because i have to go kind of shortly but i want to i want to con i want to congeal on something so yeah it’s going to be a moment i’m trying to think if i actually take a bite of this this consciousness congress this um this the thing that you can’t quite get aspect of that i am talking about right now when i said i that thing i had to just refer to it’s like i mentioned this in our last discussion it’s simultaneously something you’re the most familiar with but since you see through it and by means of it you’re also completely oblivious to its function and its and its actual determination very often you don’t have to be like that that’s what i don’t advise that which chooses what to identify with okay and now this is where i was talking about a couple seconds ago this is where lots of words get used egregore spirit all these ideas why i’m comfortable with egregore being differentiated from most of them is it egregore is something like a headless spirit and that’s pageau had like we i can find that video to you where you they mold this over going what the hell is going on i think he used jordan hall in that um if i remember so it’s jordan hall berbicki bajer and that’s what i had been pushing i had literally sent all three of them in the emails this is exactly what i think because like an egregore is what i do when i do a ouija board there’s all of us are pushing but uh it’s this this movement that that movement now mark and i and other people in this corner have argued a lot now i am on camp pageau i’m on camp orthodox christianity on this one i believe that angels have agency do these higher bodies do these bodies we are participating have agency i think they are i don’t want to argue where oh they are is that why you don’t have agency well they’re not conscious right like there yes but they’re ways of being but they participate in the way of being so they’re but they’re not a conscience engine because conscious means to be aware of self con science to be aware of self these agents lack conscience i’m being very technical as my goal is this tracker in my yeah yeah yes well you could you could take several perspectives right because because you could you could say that these beings are a affordance of a certain set of intelligibility right so you could describe them as the intelligibility that they afford right so you could say that they’re conscious of an aspect of reality in that sense but i don’t like using the word conscious but they’re aware or they they are they have the potential for awareness for something because this is the issue because this is i’m gonna have to rubber meet the road something that is conscious is morally copable and that would mean if a group can be defined to have a conscience then when a group does something the group is held responsible not the people in it the entire group you see the actual fucking ramifications from this line of argument and it actually grounds out because there’s laws being made with this new way of defining words and all previous laws had another way of using that work so well i would i would argue a religion that is a group yeah i think religion is responsible so watch a religion under technical sure like how the word is used in law a religion makes you it gives you moral duties of conscience that is what if you are giving your moral duties of conscience that is what your religion is that’s why marxism in my opinion is a religion we need to get it labeled as such because they do not see that from that perspective they don’t have a religion religious people are those people who go to church on sunday are not religious and then they fall into this thing they have a conscience they fall into a group if a if a group gains a conscience they have a conscience they have a conscience they have a group if a if a group gains a conscience and if we say that that means technically they’re fighting one way to say that everybody in this group falls under that they’re saying in their direction i don’t fall under a group because we don’t identify that way as religious even though we have moral duties of conscience that’s why i’m saying this this problem to me rounds into like life like I’m confused. I’m confused. I’m confused. I’m confused. Wait. Okay. I’m confused. Why the group. Culpability is necessary. For their argument. I don’t like it. So this is not my personal. I’m saying this is the rationale being used. I see. Okay. Hopefully that makes. I’m not for group identifying. But if I can. Right. Right. That move. Well, okay. So we have. So if we are playing around with like the, the. And whatever these kinds of group mind things are. It seems like we could. Pose their identity. While also. Holding intention. Not intention is one word in tension. The, the fact that the only possible way. To understand what that thing is, is through the actions of the individuals. You know, Acting out its will, if you will. Right. So it necessarily all. All. And that’s the thing. That’s the thing. That’s the thing. Culpability. Will. Always fall on the individual. Right. No, no, but in the Netherlands, they. They say that. Some organizations. Are not alone. Because of the spirit of the organization. Right. Yeah, that’s what I’m trying to say. There are limits. This is. This is the paradox of intolerance. This is a big fucking problem. How do you tolerate Nazis? You don’t. You are intolerant to Nazis. Why? Because tolerating Nazis destroys all tolerance. That’s a hard paradox. And then they have the correct answer. They think, which is Herbert McHugh. Anyways. We can get into all the jargon. I think it’s really, really fairly simple. For my perspective. How is it happening again? I think it’s a good question. I think it’s a good question. I think it’s a good question. Well, First of all. You’re not part of one group. Right. Yeah. Like you’re even fractally set in many. Right. And. You could, you could make an argument for the Jewish that there may be. In one group. Right. Like they’re as close as you can get. Right. Which, which is interesting. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s quite a big point at that point. Whatever. Right. Cause I, I, I, I definitely think that the Jews are more of a group than the blacks. Right. Like. Like that seems to have a single. Yes. Because there’s more. To the group. And they self identify as it while black people don’t. Right. So that’s also. The biggest. Yeah. This is. Well, it goes again, back to the Protestant spirit. Or like we have these, these, these. Self organizing. Things that are not the same, but we’re. Also calling ourselves Antifa all over the world. Right. It’s like. Well, I do. You are. Yeah. Right. And that’s the fighting off of Marcuse just definition of fashion. And that’s the reason why I say that. Because. Yeah. Herbert Mccuse’s answer and that answer that the Antifa rhetoric’s use, if you actually read what they use in their internal rhetoric. And their logic. Is that movie that. They define everybody on the outside as a group. And that’s the reason why I say that. Right. I’m just. That’s more or less black. Oh, yeah. So that’s what I’m saying is that conscience that moral responsibility. Where is, where’s the moral capability found? It’s bound in a group. For example, Waco. I can show you examples where this matters. Waco, Texas. Moral capability fell into a group. Did any of those people get a trial individually? Right. No. Holy fuck. This matters. Yeah. You have an FBI agent. Openly suing an active FBI agent is suing Alex Jones and getting awarded. Hundreds of millions of dollars. What the fuck. That breaks. That is. I hate Alex. I don’t hate. Very much not. And jives with him because I have similar things. But that’s fucking terrifying. People don’t understand what that, what that setting into the world. That’s opening something. That’s not. Yeah. I saw. I don’t know. Because I saw this. That means. Any no was like held responsible for what is straight up. Moral capability. The moral capability is being slid there because it’s an FBI agent who’s under an oath. To take an FBI agent oath. It’s a very specific thing. You are basically your actions are movement of the FBI agent. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You are basically your actions are movements of the action of that agency. Like if you’re a CIA agent. You are a CIA agent. Or you’re burned. Those are your fucking options. You retire. Well, are you burned? In this lifestyle. So you have to know that this is the upper echelon. They hire people in, who is on payroll, who then testified against Alex Jones, sued him and won a lawsuit. Using information he gained through an agency, and he has taken an oath for that is me saying, by law, I can show you the FBI just sued Alex Jones, anybody wants to argue with me, doesn’t understand the law. These ideas, that’s moral culpability now, is FBI responsible for that? This question actually grounds out right now in reality because guess what? Now corporations are going to be able to sue people for what they’ve said. Corporations are going to be given body. The conscience of a corporation, corpus, body, a group of people whose sole intention is making money or doing whatever the corpus of that corporate now has given moral duties to the members of that holy shit where we’re sliding into like very bad waters. Isn’t that what a church has done forever? Where is the church allowed now? That’s what I’m saying, there’s supposed to be that separation. Well, they have been doing that, didn’t they? Not in the United States, I mean we’re in Pakistan. I mean, like, that’s how Jesus got tried. Like the Jews asked the Romans, right? They used the structures of the law, they had no ability to pull off, to pull off a summary execution. If they did, that would be them taking authority over Caesar. That’s why they went to the Romans. It was the group that did that out of a moral group. So then Martin Luther in his later life and he says kill all the Jews and burn down all the synagogues? Was he right? Because Hitler agreed with Martin Luther. End of life, Martin Luther said to burn all the synagogues. I don’t know why Luther would be right or something. Well, because he had brought in that Martin Luther is the guy who brought the Reformation, had moved all this thing. And then here he is saying now that the answer is available, why aren’t they participating? It’s the same answer as the Pharisees. I mean, that’s like scary stuff. Honestly, this has real world consequence. So it’s to me, if we’re going to give a group moral culpability. No, hold on. Hold on. The fact that something like that is true doesn’t say what you have to do about it. Like this is, now you’re making a logical argument. Okay, well then how do I show that logical error is being made so we can take it into court and undo it backwards? No, no, no. Well, this is a moral judgment. Yes, duties of conscience. Right. So there’s no answer. Yes, sometimes a group should be held responsible. That’s what a war is. I’m a little bit confused. Like we’ve been doing this for forever. Like it seems to me like that answer, the question has been answered. Well then is the answer in this little corner for all the tribes to go to war because that seems like the only logical. We’re all going to get called under our own moral conscience duties and then. No, that’s the Protestant spirit. Like I don’t get it. Like don’t be a Protestant. We all speak English. You don’t have to be at war, you can have a cooperative processing relationship. Like it’s not a zero sum game. Like I don’t understand. Like why are we making things zero sum? Well, it’s not zero sum. It’s just now that now that corporations can sue individuals and they’re given the autonomy, the rights and the ability to take that into action and sue people for more money than they’ve ever made in their life. Like do things that are that’s. Yeah, well that’s that’s crazy American shit. But I like what’s international. Like why wouldn’t defamation work against the company? Like, like if you defame a company like why wouldn’t the company not be allowed to sue you? But it’s not even a company, it’s a corpus. It’s the FBI. That’s the investigative wing, part of the government. Yeah, well that’s that’s a different problem. Oh, to me it feels like. Anyway, Nick, what do you have to say? Sorry not to block the film. It’s not usually my wheelhouse. I mean, yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea. There’s some so many funky bits about law and how it works and how words and definitions are being utilized and talked about. And the way they get pushed back and forth as, you know, in America we have a very large system that’s meant to at least attempt to correct when these things go out of whack. And I guess I can hope that that remains the case and see how it plays out. Maybe the side effect is an individual can still sue the entirety of the FBI as a group. Now. That’s exactly the implication which is, I am glad you noticed that because that’s what I’m worried about. This can of worms. So we have a new law in Arizona came in effect October 1 and no one in my county has yet used it. It’s like put into effect but there’s no precedent in the judges ruling of them using that new definition yet. And things like that matter. It’s hard to just because they made a lot of it. Where did the definition come from? Did it come through the Supreme Court of Arizona? Yeah, so it’s, it’s having to do with 32 hour holds for mental health beds for people. We have almost none in Arizona. Our law right now or before October 1 of 2022 said you have to be a danger to yourself or others to be put into this hold. Now it says you can be also a danger to yourself, others or persistent acute dysfunction. And that allows us to actually swoop in people who are in the ER twice, three times a week. People who just don’t have the ability and the skill sets and the personality, whatever combination, they cannot drive. And something has to be done to help them. I see that as a limitation upon the burden that you can be on society. Yeah, I think that’s fair. Like there’s, there’s a line there somewhere. So it also gets a little freaky because one is a little bit easier to, it has less of a slippery nature to it. Right. So willing to hurt yourself or others is a lot, it has a tighter definition bound around it. Whereas like who’s judging whether you’re, you know, not in a right state of mind. And how slippery is that definition? How easy is it for it to slip into something where you have people going, oh, well, you, you voted for that one politician 20 years ago. So we’ve decided that means that you are, you know, this. Now we’re going to 100% real. It sounds kind of funny, but that’s, that’s truly what happens. The scariest two states are California and Florida. Florida is actually no kickbacking away. Florida has the Baker’s Act. And I think it only takes two petitions, two people who know you. There can be coworkers, two coworkers can go to a mental health office with a petition and you get your ass locked in a room for 72 hours with a bunch of strangers watching you. No, that’s the law too far one way. California is called the 5150. Same thing. Arizona, we’re too far the other way, where we have people who are very seriously unable to help themselves, or even identify that they need help. They’re the ones we need to get stuck in that system, but we’re so far at the baby step towards it. We don’t want to just go to any two people back in the day I could get rid of my wife on hysteria. The word hysterectomy comes from hysteria, like, people don’t even know how sexist they’re like, this is important stuff to me because terminology itself is you can. Yeah, you can lock people up against their will because of how your laws are in your state. Maybe you want to pay attention to how their wording. Yeah, when there’s 100 page document coming out from the UN about the higher educational institutions. Maybe you should fucking read it if you work in college. You’re working in admin or any, you should probably go read that shit, because I’m gonna, I’m gonna say something controversial. I, in some sense, you don’t have to worry that much right like if the spirit is there they’re going to find a way. What I want. I wish I had that confidence. I didn’t have nightmares all the time. I probably would have that confidence but I have like recurring nightmares constantly so I don’t, I don’t. I think that was a negative thing that I said. Like that’s what happened in basically Germany right like yeah if 1930s Germany’s happening in 1930s Germany is happening and there’s probably not a whole lot that’s gonna tinkering around with the legal system in the late 20s probably wasn’t going to fix the problem. I think it’s just not the right level of analysis and like, at a certain point right like this is why you have the courts right like you can say well I don’t, I don’t like what you did, and you’ve got to revise what you did right and like that sucks because like there’s going to be people thrown under the bus. I mean, like that’s like that’s what’s going to happen anyway right and I got like some of these things are going to be malicious but so some of these things are going to be done out of confidence right and like even even if you have the right words at a certain page, right like that doesn’t mean that people will interpret those words correct right like so, so, so, even if we can prove in a court of law that they misinterpreted that they still misinterpreted. So, I think I think you’re looking at the problem at the wrong place right like like you need to get the right spirit and yeah like the spirit that we’re seeing now sucks and it’s real scary. It’s like, yeah, I don’t have an answer. And I, yeah. When we’re looking back to this corner of the internet, right like I think, I think the answer is to get more wise people and like, if you ever, you have one person that wields authority and like someone thinks is like, it’s an edge case and that person can make the split decision which is always going to happen right because like that’s how things always going to end up in practicality like someone needs to make a split second decision. And whether they go to jail afterwards or not, it isn’t relevant. Right, like, like, if they made the wrong decision and you put them in jail is like, you want to punish them for for being incompetent. Maybe, like, Well, I mean, I would say the case in play right now is the FTX kid who just, that’s why I mentioned the word shibboleth because of his little internal text that were given out. That’s like, he said he’s able to get away with all this stuff people give them literally billions of dollars because he just said the right things that push the right moral buttons, which is when the society is that fucked up. He was just really big. It does seem to be a universal. I mean it’s a problem of just communication system, it’s the sociopath problem, really, which is to say that, you know, mimicry is always possible at a high level, and there’s no way to discern the mimicry from the real thing until often it’s already passed the, you know, past the point where the damage has been done. There are ways you can attempt to do it. However, you know, it wouldn’t have been very difficult, even in the shibboleth example. If there was one guy that knew how to say it correctly and was teaching it to the people from the other tribes, then they would have passed the test and no one would have known the difference, either way. And it’s just, I mean that mimicry and it’s in some deep sense it’s how all games are corrupted. Right, it’s the girdles incompleteness, ultimately, even at that level, which is just you’re always going to find the loophole out of that formal system. In this case it’s a formal system of communication itself but it could operate in any other field, it is a perpetual problem. Probably the best answer is trying to build robust, healthy cultures that have something enticing about them. Right. That pushes towards the good behavior because the enticement of the good behaviors, greater than, you know, the rewards of worshipping mammon or, you know, these other. Right. If, if you say right like the, the behavior that needs to be imitated this more to be more like Jesus. Right. And if you truly believe that that is the right thing then you would argue that imitating that pattern is going to change the person put about. So, if, if the benefit is a cold emulation it will nonetheless accidentally create a positive change is that the right point you’re making. Right. And so, so, so the question is what is the thing that we’re emulating. Maybe if the thing that we’re emulating isn’t good, then bad people can do it. And maybe in order to emulate good things, you have to be good. Yeah. Now, now we’re all Calvinists again. Well gentlemen, my brain power is just about burnt out. Well you got to emulate things more. I’m trying, but man. So yeah, I’ll get this to an end. I think, I think we had some Skyler therapy over the last bit. But it was a fascinating talk. I hope, I hope viewers have. It’s useful for the viewers like it seems hard to, to bind things to, to conclusions right, especially when you’re, you’re in this more ineffable train. Maybe you’re, maybe you’re not binding things to conclusions I was talking about Plato and like I said, I don’t think Plato, try to solve anything right like what he, what he tried to do is try to take you around the elephant. And so maybe, maybe that should be our measure of success. If we get around the elephant enough times. And since Nick is dizzy I can confirm that was successful. Myopia is all consuming. I hope everybody leave comments in the comment section. There’s probably a lot that we want to talk about. I hope this can also be like a starting of point for a reformation. Right. We form, so we need to bring back form into the thing that we’re participating in, that would be great. We are all Calvinists. Hi Paul I hope you watch till the end of the video. Our only conclusion. We’re all Calvinist according to Nick. He is no longer in control of his brain so he’s only mumbling deterministic answers. Man. Okay. Yeah, so thanks for watching and I hope you guys want to see more of my new dialogous format. Bye. Bye.