Teaching & the Voice of Conscience ｜ Paul Rossi ｜ EP 164 (ysQBegyQP8A)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=ysQBegyQP8A

Hello. If you have found the ideas I discuss interesting and useful, perhaps you might consider purchasing my recently released book, Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life, available from Penguin Random House in print or audio format. You could use the links we provide below or buy through Amazon or at your local bookstore. This new book, Beyond Order, provides what I hope is a productive and interesting walk through ideas that are both philosophically and sometimes spiritually meaningful, as well as being immediately implementable and practical. Beyond Order can be read and understood on its own, but also builds on the concepts that I developed in my previous books, 12 Rules for Life and before that Maps of Meaning. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Today, almost 70 years after Brown versus Board of Education ushered in the civil rights movement, there is an urgent need to reaffirm and advance its core principles. Fair is a foundation against intolerance and racism. Fair gets that our civil rights and liberties need to be protected. We need to be fair enough just to be anti-racist. We also need to be pro-human. To insist on our common humanity. To advocate for fairness and understanding. To demand that we are each entitled to equality under the law. To bring about a world in which we are all judged by the content of our character and not by the color of our skin. That’s where fair comes in. Moving forward together as one race, the human race. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. I support fair. Join us. I’m pleased to have with me today Mr. Paul Rossi. Paul Rossi is a high school mathematics teacher and writer. He graduated from Cornell University with a BA in French literature in 1992. And from Hunter College in New York City with an MA in educational psychology in 2010. He’s been teaching mathematics including Algebra II and calculus at Grace Church High School in Manhattan since 2012. His April 2021 essay, I Refuse to Stand By While My Students Are Indoctrinated, was recently published on Substack’s Common Sense with Barry Weiss. Ms. Weiss is a former New York Times journalist who resigned over differences with her employer and began to function as an independent investigative writer on Substack. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk with me today. It’s a pleasure to be here. What’s your life like at the moment? Well, I have a little more time than usual at this point. I would, you know, be teaching classes. You know, I would have, you know, up to three classes a day, but they’ve, they’ve taken my classes away and assigned them to some other folks. And so I basically have no more teaching duties right now. So I have a lot of time for volunteer work and some other other things like this, which has been, you know, a good chance to tell my story. Okay, so you’re working at Grace, sorry, it’s Grace Church High School. And walk us through what happened. You’re a mathematics teacher there, and you published an essay with Barry Weiss last week. And tell us about the school first. Well, we’re a K through 12 school that opened up a high school in 2012. So that, well, it was K through eight, and then they opened a ninth grade. And then as the ninth moved to the 10th and they brought in another ninth grade. And so we had a complete high school it by 2016. And, you know, our high school is, it’s a prep school. But over the course of the, you know, particularly the last five years, we’ve, you know, five, six years we’ve been implementing an anti racist curriculum programming. For our students, as well as you know, because as we were told in 2015, diversity, equity and inclusion is not enough, and we needed to move towards a so called anti racist pedagogy and program. So that was beyond diversity, inclusivity and equity. Right. It’s a private, it’s a private high school, private high school. That’s right. It’s called independent. The tuition is approximately how much a year. I believe that’s up to 57,000 a year I think I could somewhere between 50 and 60. And how big a school is it. Well our high school has about 340 students in it. And, you know, maybe 100 120 faculty I’m not really sure what the ratio is. Faculty and staff. Did you enjoy teaching there. I did. I love teaching math. I, it’s just, it’s a wonderful thing and I, you know, I didn’t. I got into teaching math late. But it’s, it’s something that I really enjoy. This year has been hard because we’ve been teaching I’ve been teaching hybrid which means I teach both on zoom. Or, you know, I guess until recently, and to students in the classroom simultaneously. So that’s been a technical challenge. It’s also been, you know, a challenge to keep, you know, everybody engaged and also to to focus my attention where it needs to be. So this has been difficult here. Yes, I imagine so. Would you have considered your relationships with your faculty peers and the administration and the students was that essentially positive during the duration of your tenure as a teacher there. Yeah, I mean, I would say it has been positive I mean my colleagues. They sort of know where I stand I haven’t I haven’t sort of, I haven’t taken great pains to hide my thinking. In some cases I’ve gotten into some spats with with them over, you know differences in the way that the programming has been delivered. And, you know, the, essentially the foundations, the belief, the system of belief which animates it. But I will say, you know, I’ve had very cordial relations with, you know, the Dean of equity and inclusion and the Office of Community Engagement as people, you know, I find. I find to get along. And with the students. And with the students, you know, I had a difficult first couple years as a teacher I did took me some time to really settle on a personality that worked for me but I kind of, you know, by hooker by crook, you know, worked out a kind of performative self that function well, well enough, you know, to, to teach will teach pretty well I mean I won’t say I’m excellent teacher I’m decent I’m pretty good by now but you know it has taken a while. And is this something that you had planned to continue pursuing did you see yourself apart from let’s say this incident did you see yourself in the teaching profession. Yeah, I, yeah I could I could I was thinking I would I would want to be a teacher for the duration, you know, and. And I didn’t really ever consider leaving teaching until till probably this year. What did you like about teaching. I like the energy to. Yeah, I like the energy of the students and I like to, to, you know, communicate with them about you know what I find true and beautiful about mathematics mathematics is was for me personally when I when I got back into it and teaching, I found that it was a sort of island in the storm. And I found that it was a sort of island in the storm of the culture wars and the sort of general epistemological chaos which you know which I find you know in in language and discourse right because you had a you have a be a BA in French literature, and I, I can’t, I don’t presume that your ma and edge psych was math focused but I could be wrong. No, it was not. It was okay. So it’s interesting that you that you ended up teaching math and also it’s interesting that you founded an island in a storm. And I suppose that the way that you talk about it makes it sound like that was a relief. Yeah, very much from what exactly. Well, it’s it’s it’s a bit of a long story. What it Cornell. I studied the humanities I had a history major English major and French lit major as an undergrad, and me and my, my merry band of friends and cohort of, of, you know, compatriots we were really into postmodernism we really loved the paradoxes of language we studied we studied dairy Don foo co and and leotard and Baudrillard and there was a certain like enthusiasm even a lust for paradox that we had and I personally had reading texts and sort of finding out how words can mean they’re opposite how meanings can be seem And I guess I would say that my, I guess I had a kind of a breakdown from that and that I didn’t really, once I realized I didn’t want to become a professor or go into, you know, the academic world because I found that even then it was, I was being pushed to say things I didn’t believe. I, you know, I kind of drifted for a decade, I would, I would say, trying to find something that was meaningful. So back when you were an undergraduate, you found the postmodernists emotionally, motivationally intellectually engaging, and you talk about that as something that was also true of the people that you were So I get the sense that there was some sense of intellectual adventure. What was it, what, what did postmodernism mean to you and why do you think you were attracted to it, what was exciting about it. Well, there was a poetic sensibility. It was non political in fact, you know that the true materialist Marxists that you know that were sort of been in our, in our social milieu, they would they would sort of scoff at us and say that we were bourgeois. Oh, that’s what Marxists do. Yeah, right. So, you know, we were just playing with language and there really was no there there and actually what would what would deliver, deliver us from our current predicament was some revolution in terms of material circumstances. And so, but I was really, you know, I was really drawn to the creativity of reading a text in a way it was, I looked at it as a way like I wasn’t talented enough to be a writer, but I could critique something in a creative way and sort of get my get my revenge, in a sense, like on the text, right, because that’s a hell of a way to that’s a hell of a way to put it. When did you figure out that that’s what you were doing? I think I kind of knew it at the time, but later on reflection I felt when I tried to be a writer in my 30s and got nowhere and became very frustrated and despondent and depressed I thought back at that time and I realized that a lot of criticism itself as a kind of criticism that we were doing is a kind of shaking your fist at the creative process and sort of gaining gaining power over over art by by interpreting it in a way that you found, you know that that I found, you know, fit my world. And so it is, you know, what do you think the pleasure in? I mean, you’re you’re you’re making a case for the pleasure in that you said to some degree that you think it was born out of. Well, it’s something like frustration at. And I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I truly don’t. I’m trying to extract out exactly what you’re saying. And so if I’m wrong, please correct me. You had and perhaps this is not rare among people who are studying literature at elite colleges. I mean, you you you’d have some desire to think philosophically to be seen as a philosophical thinker to be seen as a creative writer to be a creative writer. There’s a romanticism about that. And of course, that ability is what the whole enterprise depends on. So it’s sort of at the apex. But you describe what you were enthralled by at least to some degree as revenge against not only the text, but against the creative process itself as a consequence of of what what would the emotion be? Because it would say like I didn’t I wanted to be creative, but I just couldn’t. I know I didn’t feel like I had anything to say. And I felt that my my authority was deeply compromised just by my privilege or my place in the world. But I could actually I could reach back into Shakespeare and reinterpret Shakespeare in a way that, you know, made me feel powerful. You know, I could say I could I could expose the contradictions of think of your of your peers. And what about your professors? You know, I think it was I think it I mean, I don’t know their state of mind, but I feel like a lot of what animated that high postmodernism. It was you know, but it also had an element of appreciation, you know, just like in the way that Marx admires capitalism, it was also there was an element of, you know, wow, this is amazing, but it’s kind of actually saying the opposite and, and this just dwelling in that. Right, you wouldn’t be attending to it at all if you weren’t in some sense in awe of it, right? Because why attend to that and not something else? So that has to be there at least implicitly. So and, and then you after you, you were finished with college, you said you, you weren’t sure exactly what direction to go in and you tried writing and oh, you also mentioned let’s get back to that a minute. But you also mentioned that you discovered that you didn’t have anything to say. And also you felt that you were not going to be able to do that. You felt that your authority was compromised. Okay, so those are two different things. They’re worth delving into. It’s not that surprising that you didn’t have anything to say in some sense, because I mean, you were an undergraduate and what what do you know when you’re an undergraduate? I mean, there are staggering geniuses that come along who who seem as an intrinsic part of them to just overflow with brilliant creativity, but that’s pretty damn rare. And it’s hard to have anything to say when you haven’t lived much yet. But then so, it sounds like you were hard on yourself because of that. But also, your authority, you said you thought it was compromised. What do you mean by that exactly? Exactly. Well, even then, I mean, there was in my I took some creative writing classes. And even then there was a conscious of consciousness of identity politics and that the real stories that would advance society would not come from a white male perspective. So I kind of bristled at that and but I didn’t feel like I think experience wasn’t of what would you call interest? It wasn’t of redemptive interest. Right, like I didn’t have I had things to say, but but you know, the people people didn’t really seem to value my perspective. So I kind of swallowed what I had to say. I had a friend I wrote about him extensively in my not this last book I wrote, but the previous book and he was very guilty for his existence as this is years ago as a white male. And he virtually refused to participate in society at all because he had swallowed hook and sinker. I suppose the proposition that any manifestation of ambition on his part was to be viewed as part of the world destroying force. Now it eventually killed him there. It was complicated, but that was certainly a motivational, let’s put it that way or anti motivational in a very profound way. So some of that was his own cynicism, but some of it was a certain emotional sensitivity to the potential impact his existence had on oppressed others, let’s say, at least that’s, that’s how he came to view it. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I also had a lot of rage and that, you know, I felt like I, when my friends were do were organizing things like, you know, Greenpeace and so on, I would be kind of a LARPing, they would call it LARPing today, but I would I would say, you know, oh well you just tell me when you’re ready to throw a bomb, you know, I was obsessed with things like, you know, violent revolutions. I wanted, you know, I was, I wanted to learn how to hack and freak with phones and, you know, without without any real goal in mind other than to to to disrupt and break things. And so I guess, you know, I’m actually lucky there wasn’t an Antifa back then I probably would have been a part of it. What, what do you think? What do you think attracted you to that? I’m very curious about this because Antifa, for example, I understand the attraction, there’s a romantic attraction to revolution. You know, I was, I had a debate with Slavoj Zizek about hypothetically about Marxism, although it didn’t really go that way. But when I was unpacking the Communist Manifesto, and I mentioned that it was a call to bloody violent revolution and the crowd, which was a very poorly behaved crowd in many ways, broke out laughing and clapped, which, which really took me aback because I wasn’t promoting violent revolution in any positive sense and I knew exactly or know exactly where those revolutionary sentiments got us in the 20th century. But by the same token, there is a romantic attraction to rebellion. Right. I mean, and it’s linked to something very deep, which is the sense that we all have to some degree that we are A minority of one against a faceless bureaucratic tyrant hell bent on at least shaping us into this into the form that it demands and commands and that that structure is to be viewed even realistically with a certain degree of skepticism and regarded at least to some degree as an arbitrary tyrant and to stand up against that. Well, that there is something intrinsically heroic about that, although it can go very dreadfully wrong. And it’s something that mean young people are called to that mean that the developmental psychologist Jean Piaget pointed out that there’s a messianic stage of late adolescent development where not everyone hits it, but a certain number of people hit it. And that manifests itself in a laudable perhaps concern with broader issues in the world as part of identity formation that all supposed to be catalyzed and shaped in universities. So it doesn’t find channels that are fundamentally destructive psychologically and socially. So anyways, back to you. So you were stymied to some degree in your creative endeavor, and you found some outlet for that frustration with postmodernism. But then there was also this this deeper and darker attraction to some degree that you just described. How have you made sense out of that in the intervening years? I think it really was a resentment at not being able to be creative in my own life, not being able to have a generative, healthy, creative life. I mean, a way to to deal with certain impulses and channel them productively. Why do you think you believe that that was the appropriate destiny for you to begin with? Well, you know, the great thing is that, you know, I was able to to work out issues with my father and, you know, if you have problems with with authority, there’s nothing more attractive than I feel for myself anyway, like is a moral blank check morally. Because then if you’re if you’re doing things for the benefit of the world, well, then you can you can take out all kinds of debt. You can you can say, well, I’m you know, I’m I don’t have to be a good person because I believe in all the right things and I can do whatever I do is instrumental to the coming of a better world. So, you know, I could I made my mother’s life miserable. I would argue my father I was, you know, I was posing, but I was inhabiting the post so deeply that I would be that I would give myself some, you know, I could justify anything by the fact that everyone else was wrong and I was right. And, you know, I found that as a as a way to to deal with things and I it was it’s a real high. I mean, it’s a really wonderful, thrilling thing to inhabit. Even though, you know, now today I look at it, I look at it very I’m very embarrassed by it. But it’s understandable. I mean, I don’t know it could have been no other way, really. Why why do you think you why aren’t you like that now? What changed for you? Well, you know, I went through I would say teaching teaching changed me a lot because teaching was a way for me to to express myself creatively and be engaged in the world in a regular habitual productive way where I could tangibly see the benefits of my efforts. And it was a social product. It’s a social thing teaching and it’s a performative thing teaching and it’s very creative and you know every day would be different. There would be new kids and they would have different problems and you know they would bring to me, you know, their own cultural reference points. So it’s almost it’s just constant renewal. Teaching is just a constantly renewing and self renewing endeavor. So I know, you know, I realized that with other jobs that were technical or you know that were wrote those became boring very you know within three or four years. But after teaching for over you know, six, seven years, I was like this is this still isn’t boring. I could do this forever. You know, I love this. So you found a way to contribute that was concrete and habitual and regular and routine and that actually suffice to satiate your creative impulse and that removed your resentment. Would you say or? I would say it just it just kind of tempered it and and made me not worry about it so much. I can’t say it evaporated totally. I mean, I still have an oppositional I guess I’m an oppositional person. I can’t say it evaporated totally. I mean, I still have an oppositional I guess I’m an oppositional guy in some sense, but as far as institutions go, but I was able to just focus on on my work and on the kids and trying to be good at what I do and enjoying it. You know, and we’re teaching before you went back to Hunter College or after. I had I had been tutoring for a while before that. And you know, I turned to teaching when I You know, the reason why I actually got the degree in educational psychology. It’s a story in itself. And that was one where it was a jet. It was, it was a desperate attempt to avoid suicide, essentially, like I, I was so depressed at that point in my life that I Felt just compressed into this tiny little ball and there was no way out. I was just You know how I got to that point is all the other thing, but I just went on the internet and I was like, what is the last thing that I remember enjoying in my life. What is the last time I actually Felt a part of something. And it was when I was tutoring Kids in You know, I had done some light tutoring and I was like, okay, that’s really crucially important. So, so because what you just said is, you know, you said that you were going to be a teacher. And you were in despair. Yeah. And then you were looking for something that was genuinely redemptive and you were searching your memory for that. And you found that in mentoring. Okay, why What was it about mentoring that had enough value that it pulled you out of that pit or that you could see that as a pathway out It was just the experience that I remembered of being with someone and being able to give them something that they could use And having having that exchange be rewarding See, I’ve been I’ve been very struck by the postmodern insistence that Hierarchies are predicated on power and are to be viewed with contempt as as the manifestation of tyranny and as self serving selfish institutions and I believe that that is true when the hierarchies become corrupt but What I’ve observed as the appropriate counter position is that the people that I’ve seen who I’ve admired the most Who are working diligently in institutions find the biggest pleasure in their life in mentoring and it’s a profound pleasure There’s something about allowing the best in you to serve the best in others that can’t be beat by any other form of reward And a hierarchy that’s functioning properly, I think has the central aspect of a benevolent father, which is something like encouragement It’s certainly not exploitation by power and it’s unbelievably cynical to make the case that that’s the central aspect of functional institutions Having said that, I understand that institutions can become corrupted by tire tyranny and power and deceit But I don’t I do believe that the basis upon which a stable and productive hierarchy must be instituted is something like The paternal care for the upcoming generation. And I also believe that we do take the responsibility of the future And I also believe that we do take the responsibility of the future for the upcoming generation. And I also believe that we do take the most intense pleasure in that So it’s very fascinating for me to see that when you were scouring your memory and inhabiting a place that was quite cynical and resentful That that turned out to be the doorway that you could pass through and then you went back to university and it was a consequence of your experiences with tutoring Do you remember any particular episodes when you were tutoring that stood out in your mind? You know, it’s just sort of an image that I have of being with, you know, with a young person and, you know, having them focused on what they’re doing and me feeling connected to what they were doing And just that it wasn’t even a specific image. It was just sort of a, you know, something in my body that felt good. I mean, and I really wasn’t thinking about it any more than that at that point Like it was just it was literally just totally selfishly. When was the last time I felt any reward in life? Right. Well, that’s a that’s a dead serious empirical question. You know, if you’re if you’re seeing a good therapist, if you’re depressed, one of the things that therapist will ask you to do is Watch your life and see if there’s anything that lifts you out of your miasma. And it’s not a matter of thinking about it. Exactly. It’s a matter of paying attention. And it’s often surprising you stumble across something you think, oh, that makes me happy or that alleviates my misery. And I really didn’t notice that before. It wasn’t part of my theory. You know, it just happened to be a fact that I was overlooking. It’s dreadfully important to well, it can be life saving as you as you found out. So, okay, so you went back to you went to Hunter College and you you you did an MA in educational psych. What was that like? Oh, it was, you know, I almost I almost bailed out of the application process. Well, I, you know, I, I had I had chosen education in the Google search, but then I think, well, I got to pair it with something else that I like. So I just put psychology down. I was interested in psychology. And I the first thing that popped up was educational psychology degree. And I found like, oh, there’s there’s something here. It’s the city college. It’s I can get the degree. And, you know, if I spend $10,000,whichIsavedupformypreviousjob,Icouldgetthisthing.SoIgo,Ialmostfillouttheapplication.AndthenIkindofkindofgetwobblyandtellyouwha{t}^{\prime }sthepoint.I^{\prime }mnotgoingtoi{t}^{\prime }snotgoingtodoanything.Andthen,youknow,Iremembercallingmymother.MymothercalledmeandshetheyworriedaboutmebecauseIwas,youknow,reallylost,youknow,inmy30sand40s.Andshesaid,youknow,yougottogothroughthis,youknow,shekindofgothystericalbecauseIthinkshejustcould{n}^{\prime }tcould{n}^{\prime }thandlelikeanotherfailedendeavoronmypartorjustgettingmyacttogether.AndI,youknow,justtocalmherdown,Iwentthroughwithit.Youknow,becausejustasortofbecauseshewasgettinghysterical.Well,i{t}^{\prime }sgoodtohavepeoplearoundthatwillactuallysupportyourattemptstomoveforward.Yo{u}^{\prime }refightingwithyourself.And,youknow,I^{\prime }veseensomanypeople,the{y}^{\prime }re5149aboutmovingforward,youknow,or4951.Sothe{y}^{\prime }renotdoingit.Andsomeoneelsecancomebehindthemandgivethemalittletap.Buttherearelotsofpeoplewhodo{n}^{\prime }thavethat.Andsothentheydo{n}^{\prime }tgetthatlittletap.And,youknow,itwould{n}^{\prime }thavetakenmuchtopushthemoverthethreshold.So,yeah,Iwaslucky.So,youknow,Igotin,I,andthenonceIstartedmoving,youknow,Iwouldgotogotoclasses,Iwastutoringonthesideandmakingmoneythatway.AndIwasabletodothat.Andthen,youknow,Iwasgoingtoclass,Iwasmakingfriends,IwasIrememberedhowmuchfunschoolwas,Iwasdoingassignments.AndIwaslike,Oh,myGod,Imean,Ijusthavetowritethispaper.Lifemadesenseagain,becauseitbroughtback.ItbroughtbacksortofallofthetheenjoymentofundergraduatelifethatIreallyliked,whichissocial.Andsoitreallywasjustamomentumthinglikejustgettingbackintoit.Andthenwhatwasthecurriculumlikeatthatpoint.Oh,itwas{n}^{\prime }t.Yeah,itwasitwasalittlebit.Youknow,Iguesseducationalpsychology,itwasmoreofaresearchfocusedthingratherthananeducationdegree.Sowewereconsideredmore,youknow,asciencesortofascienceorientedresearchthinglike,youknow,Butand,youknow,westudiedresearchmethods,youknow,itwasfairlyrigorous,youknow,comparedtosomeeducationdegreeprograms.Sowedid{n}^{\prime }t,youknow,Idid{n}^{\prime }tweweresortof,youknow,insulatedfromalotofthenuttystuffthatwasgoingon.Sotha{t}^{\prime }slikeanislandtothesamewaytheSTEMfieldsareorweresomewhatofanisland.So,yeah.Okay,soyoucameoutofHunterCollegeandyouwereinbettershape,Ipresumebythattime.Yep,yep.AndthenIappliedtosomevariousteachingpositionsIteach.Ikindofmademybones,youknow,sotospeak,atsomedifferentplaceslikeIworkedatahagwonataIthinki{t}^{\prime }scalledahagwon,aKoreansummerschool,eighthoursadaydrillingS.A.T.Stuff.Iworkedataatafailingschoolteaching,youknow,tutoringS.A.T.forawhileoraC.T.Andthatwas,youknow,really,reallyheartbreakingbecause,youknow,thosekids,theyhad{n}^{\prime }thadthesamemathteacherforlongerthansixmonthsandtheyweretheywereseniorsandtheycould{n}^{\prime }taddfractions.Itwasheartbreaking.AndthenIappliedtoGreystreetSchool.ItwasanewschoolthatwasstartingupandtheyIwasabletosortoftellalittlestory.Youknow,IhadIhadalsopublishedabookoutofhighschoolcalledUpYourScore,theUndergroundGuidetotheS.A.T.withwithtwofriends.And,youknow,thatwasthatwaskindofafunlittleprojectandthatthatbookwasstillsellingalittlebit.SoIwassortofabletopiecetogetherakindofoutofmyhodgepodgelife,makealittlepackageandIdidademolessonandtheylikedme.AndthenIgothiredintheinauguralfacultyfortheforGreystreetSchool.AndsowhatwasitlikegoingtoteachatGreystreetSchool?Well,itwasitwasreallynicebecauseIwasusedtoacorporateenvironment,Iguess,youknow,becauseofmytimethatIhaddoneinapreviousjobatHBO.Iwasatechnicalmanager.Itwasawholeothercareer.And,youknow,IwasIwasveryconcernedthatIreportedtotherightpeopleor,youknow,wha{t}^{\prime }stheorgstructure,youknow,andtheywerejustlike,well,youknow,justyouhavecolleaguesandyoucandiscussthingswiththem.Andw{e}^{\prime }renotgoingtomakeyoudoanything.Youcanyoucantalktous.Itwasi{t}^{\prime }saveryfriendlyenvironment.Imean,therewereseriousexpectations,like,youknow,andeveryonetooktheirjobsveryseriously.Buttherereallywasasenseofbelongingandcommunity.Theywereveryitwasthatwasverywelcoming,actually,andveryenergizing,Iwillsay,becauseIwas{n}^{\prime }tusedtothat.Idid{n}^{\prime }texpectit.AndsoIwouldberemainalooffromit,youknow,atthebeginning,likewha{t}^{\prime }swhatarethesepeople?Whyaretheyalwayssmilingatme?Like,wha{t}^{\prime }sgoingon?Youknow,like,Ido{n}^{\prime }tknowwhyIjustgraduallyloosenupand,youknow,itwaskindofcorny,butIwouldkindofgoalongwithit.AndIi{t}^{\prime }sagoodkindofcorny.Yeah.AndIdidactually,youknow,Iwarmedupalittlebit.IfeltIdidfeellikeIwasapartofthingsandIwasabletosortoftransmitthattoothers,too.Andsowhathappenedovertime?Itwasaverygradualchangethat,youknow,Iwouldsay,well,thewithinthefirstthreeyears,oneofthetenetsofourourschoolwasthateveryemployeeandeveryfacultyandstaffmemberhadtoattendaseminarcalledundoingracism.ThatwasyourHRdepartmentwasitorwho?Yeah,itwasitwasayouknow,itwasamandatefromthedeanoffacultyatthetimeandthethatwasarequirement.Yeah,yeah.And,youknow,soIwenttothatandthatwasaveryinterestingexperience.Itwashardtowhatwouldyousay,refuseacalltoantiracism?Sure.No,Imean,dothat.Whatkindofmonster?Yeah.AndI,youknow,IwentintoitandIactuallyfeltenergizedandIwasconverted.Youknow,Ihadasortof,youknow,Iamwhiteand{I}^{\prime }mprivilegedandyo{u}^{\prime }reright.Weneedtotakecareofthis.Andtherewerepeopleinacircleandpeopleofalldifferentracesandbackgrounds.Anditwasfacilitated.And,youknow,laterIlookedbackonitandIrealizedsortofhowtheyhowtheydidit.Theydiditinaveryinteresting,seductiveway.Andwhatwaywasthat?Well,youknow,asIrecall,theytheystartedout.Well,therewassortoftwoparts.ThefirstpartwasthehistorysincetheslaveshipslandedonAmericansoilandthenthroughouttimeleadinguptothepresent.Andthentheyfocusedforthesecondhalfofthesession,theyfocusedon,youknow,howtohelpacommunitythathasbeenshapedbyallofthis.Andveryearlyintheveryearlyinthesession,theysaid,wewantyoutowithholdanyjudgmentofanyon{e}^{\prime }schoiceoragency.Anyone,youknow,anyof,youknow,theminorityblackpopulationsthatw{e}^{\prime }retalkingabouthere.Wewantyoutosimplybracketorput,youknow,hold,hold,withholdanyanalysisofthechoicesthatpeoplemake,because,youknow,theythatwilloftenleadtoamisunderstandingorinsensitivitytowardswha{t}^{\prime }shappening.Whydoyoufocusonthatspecificallythatissuespecifically?Well,because,youknow,itwasasastheyretoldthehistoryandastheytalkaboutthepresentcircumstances,theyneveractuallyrevisitedthat.Soyou,youknow,yo{u}^{\prime }reyo{u}^{\prime }reconstantlyfocusedontheoppressedpopulationinintermsofwhatisactinguponit.Actinguponthoseindividuals.And,youknow,tome,tha{t}^{\prime }slikedenyingacertainagency.Right.Andthatbuttheyneveractuallyliftedtheblindersoffattheend.Liketheytheywouldputtheseeveryonesortofacknowledgedthattheyweregoingtogoalongwiththisatthebeginning.AndIwaslike,really,w{e}^{\prime }regoingtodothat.W{e}^{\prime }regoingtotreatpeopleaslessthanhuman.Okay,Ijustitmustbelikeatemporarything.Andwhydidyouseethatastreatingthemaslessthanhuman?Imean,Ipresumethatthepeopleontheothersideofthefencewouldsay,well,youknow,w{e}^{\prime }rew{e}^{\prime }rew{e}^{\prime }reallcaughtlikecorksontheseaininthethrowsofvastsocialmovementsoverwhichwehavelittleornocontrol.Andandwhoareyoutocastjudgmentonpeoplewhohavebeentherelativerelativelydeprivedinthatregardcomparedtoyou?I{t}^{\prime }spossibletomakeafairlystringentmoralcasethattha{t}^{\prime }stheappropriatemodeofbehavior.Butyouweretherewassomethinginyouthatobjectedtothat.Andyourememberthatnow.Yeah.Despitethefactthatyousaidthatyouwereenergizedbythisandpulledinbyit.Whydoyouthinkwhydoyouthinkitcaughtyouaswell?Well,itwasasocialthing,right?Itwasi{t}^{\prime }sapeopleinacircleandpeoplearetalkingabouttheirexperiencesandpeoplearesayingasablackperson,Ihavethishashappenedtome.Andatonepointtheyaskedtheyactually,youknow,i{t}^{\prime }sempathy,right?Youcareaboutpeopleyoufeelifyo{u}^{\prime }resittingfacetofacewithsomeone,ofcourse,yo{u}^{\prime }regoingtobe{I}^{\prime }mgoingtobesympatheticandempatheticandpeoplearenarrating.Theproblem,Ithink,isgeneralizingthattogroupsand,youknow,gettingyoutomakeadifferentsetofassumptionsaboutthosegroupsbasedonasortof,youknow,selectivewaythattheempathyisleveraged.Iwouldsayther{e}^{\prime }salsotheimplicit.Ther{e}^{\prime }stheimplicit.Whatwouldyousaytheimplicitperceptualandcategoricalstructurethatcomesalongwithit,whichistheaprioriassumptionthattheappropriateclassificationforhumanbeingsisbygroup.Andthatthattha{t}^{\prime }ssoimplicit,butsopervasivethatinsomesenseneverneedstobestated.Andassoonasyouassumethatthegrouplevelistheappropriatelevel,thenyo{u}^{\prime }reboundtominimizeorevenforbiddiscussionofsuchthingsasindividualagency.Sother{e}^{\prime }ssomethingifyoubelieveinindividualagency,ther{e}^{\prime }sther{e}^{\prime }ssome.Yeah,Imean,IguessIjustaboutthat.Yeah,andIdo{n}^{\prime }t,youknow,I,Irememberatonepointtheysaid,youknow,what,whatdoyoulikeaboutbeingwhite?Thatwasthatwassortofagotchaquestionthattheyaskedthewhitepeople.Howdidyouanswerthat?Well,Imean,I^{\prime }mtryingtothinkofhowi{t}^{\prime }ssomeofthesequestions.Thesequestionsseemtocomeupinoursocietyrightnowthatthatnoon{e}^{\prime }severasked,youknow,like,well,justifymarriage.I{t}^{\prime }slike,well,waitasec.Ido{n}^{\prime }tknowhowtojustifyit.Wejustsortoftookthatforgranted.Andmaybethatwasappropriate.Right.Right.Andsoi{t}^{\prime }sveryhardwhenyo{u}^{\prime }reputonthespotlikethat.Okay.Soyo{u}^{\prime }rewhite.Wha{t}^{\prime }ssogreataboutthat?Asfarasyo{u}^{\prime }reconcerned?Well,IkindofknewwhatthatIkindofknewwhattheywereexpecting.SoIkindoftriedtoplaygameswithitalittlebitbecauseIyouknow,theytheywhattheyweretryingtodoisthe{y}^{\prime }retryingtogothroughtheembarrassmentofsaying,well,Ihavether{e}^{\prime }snothingspecialaboutmebeingwhite.Ther{e}^{\prime }snothingspecial.ButIwasjustlike,No,i{t}^{\prime }sgreat.Iwalkintoaroomandeveryonepaysattentiontomeandeveryonethinks{I}^{\prime }manexpert.AndIsaiditbecauseIknewthatdayi{t}^{\prime }skindofwhattheywanted.But,youknow,I,Ido{n}^{\prime }tusuallyfeelthatway.ButIknewtha{t}^{\prime }skindofwhattheywanted.ButthenIsaidittolike,proudlyandthenImadesomeotherpeopleupsetlikesomepeoplelikesoundslikeyoureally,reallylikebeingwhite.AndIsaid,Well,youknow,I^{\prime }mnottha{t}^{\prime }sjusthow{I}^{\prime }vebeensocialized.Andthenther{e}^{\prime }sturnedintokindofanargumentandthenthefacilitatorhadtodefendme.BecauseIactuallyhadtoldhimwhathewantedtohear.Anditturnedintokindofabitofadifficultmoment.SoIhadto,Ihadtosaythat,thatitwasgoodtobewhite,butnotbetoohappyaboutit.Doyouthinki{t}^{\prime }sa,isitareasonablequestion?IthinktheIthinktheunreasontheunreasonablepartismoreinteresting.Like,i{t}^{\prime }sreasonableifyoutakecertainlikeatruepostmodernist.Ifyoutakeit,ifyoutakeracialidentityaswell,thisisgetsintoawholeidentitythingthatIcouldtalkabout,butpleasedo.Okay,so,so,youknow,weknowthatraceisafolktaxonomy.Okay,i{t}^{\prime }snotithas,youknow,groupsasasasaAnditcorrectmeif{I}^{\prime }mwrong.Thisismyunderstanding.Youknow,I^{\prime }mnotanexpert.I^{\prime }mamathteacher.SothisiswhatIlearnedfromrace.Nomatterwhatyousay,yo{u}^{\prime }rewrong.I^{\prime }msure{I}^{\prime }mwrong.Yeah,buttakeitforwhati{t}^{\prime }sworththis.Ifyoudo{n}^{\prime }tlikeit,juststopwatchingnow.Youknow,asIunderstandfrommymemory,theracesoffolksliketaxonomygroupsareindividualsverymorewithinthegroupsandbetweenthegroups.Itdoes{n}^{\prime }tcorrespondinanymeaningfulwayto,youknow,IguessIQchangesovertimeandthings.Itjustdoes{n}^{\prime }thavealot.I{t}^{\prime }snotatruething.I{t}^{\prime }snotatruething.Sowhenpeoplesay,youknow,youknow,whatdoyoulikeaboutbeingwhite?Itrequiresyoutoaccept.Resemblancecategory.Andsoafamilyresemblancecategory,i{t}^{\prime }saverystrangesortofcategory.Soimaginethatther{e}^{\prime }sacategoryof11itemsandifyouhavefourofthem,yo{u}^{\prime }reinthatcategory.Yeah,thatmeansisthattwoPtwothingsinthatcategorycanhavetwodifferentsetsoffourattributesandstillbeinthesamecategory.Psychiatricdiagnosticcategoriesarelikethat.Somaybether{e}^{\prime }s11symptoms.Andifyouhavefour,yo{u}^{\prime }reinthecategory.Soi{t}^{\prime }skindofi{t}^{\prime }sgottenedgeslikealikeaproperset,whicharethecategoriesthatweusuallyuseinscience,liketrianglesyoucandefinecompletely.Andyoucantellwhatisandwhatis{n}^{\prime }tatriangle.Thereare{n}^{\prime }tshadesoftriangle,essentially.Andthe{y}^{\prime }reverydistinguishablefromsquares.Butfamilyresemblancecategoriesweusealot,butthe{y}^{\prime }rethe{y}^{\prime }renotscientificcategories.Theyhavetheirutilityandweusethemalot.SoOK,soanyways,backtorace.So,youknow,therei{t}^{\prime }ssomethingtha{t}^{\prime }snottrue.Andifyourequiresomeonetoidentifywithalie,youareyouarecreatingthissortoffundamentaldistortion.Now,Iunderstandthatracismisreal.Thatis,thislieisinstantiatedintheworldandi{t}^{\prime }sasasocialconstruct.Peopleishadtremendouseffectsonhistory.ButIhaveoftenwonderedwhatistheutilitythatobviousthatracismexactlyisrealbecausei{t}^{\prime }shardtodistinguishfromin-grouppreference,forexample.YouknowwhatImean?Andfearofnovelty,forexample.Andi{t}^{\prime }scomplicated.I^{\prime }mnotsayingthatther{e}^{\prime }sobviously{I}^{\prime }mnotsayingthatracialbiashasneverexisted.Butwhenyoudelveintoit,itbecomesextremelycomplicated.Andi{t}^{\prime }sveryimportantifyoulookatthingslikethethehypotheticalracismthattheimplicitassociationtestmeasures.I{t}^{\prime }sbynomeansobviousthatwhati{t}^{\prime }smeasuringisonlyracismatall,butonlyracismbecauseofalltheseotherissues.Anditisdifferent.Difficult.Wewetendtobeinfavourofin-groupfavouritismincertainsituationsandthe{y}^{\prime }reveryandveryviolentlyopposedtoitandothers.Soi{t}^{\prime }scomplicatedandmurky.Butyourfundamentalpointis,well,ther{e}^{\prime }sther{e}^{\prime }saninsistenceperhapsthatraceissociallyconstructedandarbitrary.Andyeti{t}^{\prime }sthemostfundamentalattributethatdefinesaperson.Right.Andthat,youknow,inourschool,afterweadoptedacurriculum,youknow,insixthgradeandmaybeevenearlier,butIhappentonoticethisinthecurriculum,thereisthereisanexplorationofidentitywhere,youknow,andIwouldactuallyreallyliketohearyourthoughtsonthis.Youknow,theindividualidentityissortofacknowledged.Right.Yourinterests,youknow,preferences,dreams,aspirations,personality,character,allofthosethingsarereallyimportant.Andyouarealsohaveasocialidentityandyoursocialidentityishowotherpeopleseeyou.Andyo{u}^{\prime }rebornintothisworldwherecertainsocialidentitiesarevaluedmorethanothers.Andsotheykindofleadyououtsidethehouseofyourselfunderstandingintothisworldofsocial,youknow,socialimpingingandgraduallyyousortofbecomeseparate.Ithinkthattheeffectofthisisyoushouldprioritizehowotherpeopleseeyouwhenyouwhenyouhaveaselfconceptbeforeyouevenreallyknowwhoyouare.Yo{u}^{\prime }vebeenyoureallyhavedevelopedyourself.Yo{u}^{\prime }resupposedtosortofIthinkthekidsaresupposedtosortofholditinabeyanceandthenprioritize,youknow,howotherpeopleviewyou.AndIdo{n}^{\prime }tthinktha{t}^{\prime }shealthy.Whatdidyousee?Whatdidyousee?Whatdidyouseeastheconsequencesofthatintheschool?Imean,obviously,thisisstartingtobotheryouasthisyearyoubuyintoittobeginwithandandyo{u}^{\prime }reenthusiasticaboutittobeginwithandyouattributethattowell,themechanicsoftheinitialeducation,le{t}^{\prime }ssay.I{t}^{\prime }sagroupphenomenon.Itcapitalizesonempathy.Anditsoundsbenevolent,certainly.Infact,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }stheveryessenceofbenevolenceinsomesense.Soi{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sgoingtobeseductiveregardlessofwhetherornoti{t}^{\prime }scorrect.Butyoubecomeuncomfortablewithit.Well,thefirstthingyo{u}^{\prime }reuncomfortablewithisthatyouwereimplicitlyaskedtoproduceafalsehoodinrelationshiptoyourownidentity,whichwaswhenyouwereaskedthequestionaboutwhatyouliketodo.Yousaidaboutwhatyoulikedaboutbeingwhite.Andyousaidthatwhatyousaidwas{n}^{\prime }trightexactlyorwas{n}^{\prime }tcorrectwas{n}^{\prime }ttrue.Itwassomethingthatyouwhippeduponthespotbecauseofthenatureofthedemandofthesituation.Andyourememberthat.Sotha{t}^{\prime }ssignificant.IthinkIwasjustmeetingwhatIthoughtwasanabsurditywithanabsurdity.Youknow,likeIfeltthequestionwasalittlebitabsurd.I{t}^{\prime }ssortoflikethepremise.Right.Thepremiseiswhatdoyoucallit?Howlonghaveyoubeenbeatingyourwifekindofquestion?Youknow,sothepremiseofwhitenessisyo{u}^{\prime }reyouhavetoacceptthepremiseinordertoanswerthequestion.IreallyhaveneverbeencomfortablewiththepremiseperiodbecauseIdo{n}^{\prime }tthinkthatit.Youknow,Iunderstandofpresence.Ittakesalotofpresenceofmindwhenyo{u}^{\prime }reaskedtoquestion,toquestionthequestion,especiallywhenyo{u}^{\prime }rethestudentandi{t}^{\prime }stheteacher.Tha{t}^{\prime }ssotospeak.I{t}^{\prime }stheauthorityfiguretha{t}^{\prime }sposingthequestionbecauseyouimmediatelyhavetorebelandyouhavetodoitinanextremelysophisticatedway.Yeah.And,youknow,thiscouldgetbacktotheschoolandImightnothavepassedtheclassand,youknow,I^{\prime }m{I}^{\prime }mwhite.Sothatwouldhavebeenproblematic.Andwhyareyouwhy?Andthatwouldmighthavehadjobrepercussionsorpromotionsorwhatever.Youknow,youjustyourealizethatthequestionismandatory.Yeah.Andtoquestionthequestioninthesecircumstancesis,youknow,theriskofthatissomuchgreaterthanthetriumphofdismantlingthequestionthatyo{u}^{\prime }rejustnotyo{u}^{\prime }renevergoingto.Andyoumayseemayevenfailatdismantlingthewaythatyourlittleyourlittlerebellionmayleadnowhereandyoumaybewrong,youknow,whichisthehesitationthatanyonewouldhavewithanobjectionjustthatyoumightbewrong.Andso,ofcourse,yo{u}^{\prime }rejustgoingtofallonthatsideoftheequation.Imean,tha{t}^{\prime }swhatIdid.Somepeopledo{n}^{\prime }t.Butthatwouldknowmostpeopledo.Yeah.Andnowonder.Right.I{t}^{\prime }shardnotlikeyou.Yououtlinedabunchofreasonswhyi{t}^{\prime }sdifficultto,youknow,comeupwithexactlytherightresponseatthatsecond.I{t}^{\prime }snotlikei{t}^{\prime }saquestionyo{u}^{\prime }repreparedfor.Right.Right.And,youknow,IthinkIthinkthestudentsdoitallthetime,youknow,becausether{e}^{\prime }stremendoussocialcosttochallenginganyoftheassumptionsofourantiracistprogrammingorthemannerinwhichi{t}^{\prime }sdelivered.Andwhatarethecostsforthestudents?Social,youknow,socialappropriate.Youcouldhave,youknow,teacherswriterecommendationsforthemiftheygetareputationthatther{e}^{\prime }safearthatitcouldaffecttheirapplications.Studentshavehavecometomewith,youknow,concernsandexamplesofpapersthattheywrote,youknow,ontakingapositionthatwentagainsttheorthodoxyandthe{y}^{\prime }ve,youknow,sufferedagreathitfromit.And{I}^{\prime }veaskedthem,areyousureitjustwas{n}^{\prime }tagoodpaper?Youknow,areyousure?Andthe{y}^{\prime }relike,no,Iactuallycitedthis,thisandthis.AndIstoodthere,youknow,andsoIthink,Ithinkthe{y}^{\prime }rereal.Ithinkthatthe{y}^{\prime }rerealandthatther{e}^{\prime }sactuallybeen,youknow,storiesthat{I}^{\prime }vethattheybroughttomethatare,youknow,someonedefendscapitalismorsomethingandthentheyhaveabigtalkingtoafterclassorsomethinglikethat,whichisjust.Well,yes,Imean,howcouldyoupossiblydefendcapitalismwhileyo{u}^{\prime }regoingtoa$55,000 a year private school? Right, right. I mean, what’s the probability that your parents are capitalists? 100% very high, very high. So basically you’re you’re being you’re being set to task because you have the goal to defend the very attribute of your parents that enabled you to go to the school in the first place. And that, of course, enabled the school. Right. And it’s so it’s such an ironic thing that both the administration and most faculty have such contempt for the very thing that makes them have a job. You know, like they they believe that if in order to achieve. Why do you think they have contempt for that, given that it’s the very thing that allows them to have a job? And this is associated with the question we discussed earlier, right about you being resentful back when you were an undergraduate. It seems to me. Well, let me let me let you answer. I won’t. I won’t push. Yeah, no, I think that’s a good connection to make. I mean, we all you know if you if you have baked in a. Resentment of authority and and and see all order is tyrannical. Well, then, you know, even the hand that feeds you is going to be a tyrant. And so it’s also so convenient. You know, I’ve watched among my professorial peers. I’ve worked with business schools, for example, quite frequently, and I have my own companies and did while I was a professor. And I’m not an anti capitalist. And many of my colleagues would sneer at my involvement with the business school. And I thought, OK, so what’s going on here? It’s like I know lots of businessmen and like, look, there’s plenty of businessmen who have contempt for academics. So it’s not like it’s a one way street. And I feel just as dubious about the capitalists, let’s say the entrepreneurs who sneer at the ivory tower as I do about the ivory tower. Inhabitors who sneer at the capitalists. But my sense always was was something like, well, look, I have an IQ of 145 and. I’m not getting paid seven hundred dollars an hour like my corporate counterpart on Bay Street and or Wall Street. And I work just as hard, which is true, by the way, because top rated professors work, you know, 60, 70, 80 hour weeks to keep on top of the research, just like the high end lawyers do in in in in corporate law offices. But they’re not rewarded financially to nearly the same degree. And so to me, it was always just a matter of straight out envy. It’s like, well, if this society was structured properly, professors would make a hell of a lot more than corporate lawyers. It’s like, well, yeah, except you have tenure and complete creative freedom. And, you know, that’s actually worth something. So and how dare you complain when you’re a tenured professor? Because you have the best job in the world. So anyways, so back to the back to the faculty at the high school. Yeah, you know, I think, well, you know, this is not the case for all of them, and I really don’t want to generalize too much. But it does seem that in certain of the humanities subjects, it tends to be more, you know, radical questioning of. You know, the the the foundations of, you know, what what creates inequity in the, you know, over at these schools, which are, you know, it’s almost like the more the more opportunity these schools offer, the more they’re part of a problem, I think, is the view. In the sense that, you know, it’s if you’re offering me some opportunity, right, like if you’re offering the opportunity to these elite kids, well, then what about all the other kids, which is a good question. But then, you know, instead of sort of figuring out, you know, the best ways to to help the people that needed the focuses on sort of, you know, questioning and interrogating the, you know, the the the site of the top end of the inequality. Rather than interesting moral conundrum, right? If you’re working at an elite private school and your and your conscience is bothered by inequality, and I mean, virtually everybody’s conscience is bothered by inequality. There’s very few people that walk down the street and celebrate tripping over a homeless person. So you have that plaguing your conscience, but it seems like and so maybe that does provide a way out is you can continue doing what you’re doing, but you can also critique the system as a whole and regain some ethical equilibrium in that manner. Yeah, I think that’s a bit that’s a lot of it. Yeah, for sure. All right, so you’re initially an advocate of this. You’re excited about it. But what happened? What as it rolls out over and so when did that start? How many years ago? About? I kind of kicked in 2015, I believe. Okay, so it’s about six years we’re talking about. Yeah, and I think that’s a good point. Yeah, and so you know that the the word came down there was a diversity test as I understand it, this is, you know, piece together but there was a diverse there’s a diversity task force on the board. And so you know that the, the word came down there was a diversity test as I understand it, this is, you know, piece together but there was a diverse there’s a diversity task force on the board. And so there was this there was a retreat, a board retreat that was led by something called the Carl Institute. The Carl Institute is this outfit one of these outfits that this stands for critical analysis of race in learning and education. And, you know, they, you know, influenced by critical theory, I believe and then they you know they, they sort of pitch their tent with anti racism as as a philosophy. So they started to, you know, talk to the faculty a little bit. You know, the, what later became the Office of Community Engagement, or, which is the sort of the bureaucratic arm that, you know, is essentially a sort of ethical priesthood of how to behave properly in, you know, the school environment and you know how to be a good But they would ask they had meetings but they would ask us things like, well, what does anti racism mean to you. And that’s a perfectly innocuous question and me you know to me I was like it means not being racist it means not differentiating, you know, individuals based on the color of their skin and treating people with respect and dignity no matter, you know, what their, what their skin color is and, and, and, and they said, well, that’s interesting, you know, you know, that’s very interesting, you know, okay, well, they, and then they just heard people out and some people had more, you know, I guess I would say advanced ideas about, you know, being aware of systemic oppression and understanding different perspectives based on how you might assume a child had been, you know, had developed given their circumstances. And those were rewarded, you know, much more. And those are not bad ideas you know we haven’t we haven’t got to the bad stuff yet. But it started to become apparent to me I sort of had the realization that this was really going the wrong direction when we, we had a professional development meeting and they they passed out the, I’m sure you’ve seen it the pyramid of racism. Also known as the pyramid of white supremacy, and it had this schema, it was a schema arranged in the form of a pyramid with genocide at the top of the pyramid. And then various layers that had categorical names like overt racism covert racism minimization indifference. And then various, there must have been about 50 or 60 things sprinkled on the pyramid at various levels. And some of the things on the pyramid. I actually thought were, you know, in many cases virtues. So things like being a political or things like, you know, you know, there are two sides to every story. Things that were contradictory like, you know, not believing POC, but also thinking, well, my black friend said dot dot dot. So the idea that these two things were next to each other seemed interesting to me. Also things that were just, you know, political party plat, you know, platforms. Minimization. Yeah. We all belong to the human race. Right. Right. That was that was a post racial society. Why can’t we all just get along? Prioritizing intentions over impact. That’s a nice one. Yeah. Yes, we could. We could talk about that for about three weeks. Yeah. Not believing experiences of people of color. Not believing experiences of people of color. Two sides to every story. Right. Yeah. Well, it’s very interesting when you look very carefully at the words that are lumped in with the other words, let’s say. Right. Guilt by association. Okay. Yeah. You had this pyramid of white supremacy. And I was asked, you know, what do you how do you respond to this? What do you think about this? And I just I said, I think this is extremely destructive and horrible schema to put in front of a child and I will never do it. And I think that it’s I just know. And I said, I went to the office. I said, I’m not teaching this. And so this was when you were teaching math. Well, you know, yeah, I should explain it at our school. All the teachers have other duties that are really important. Like you have an advisory and the the advisor shepherds, you know, maybe eight to ten kids through the four years. So they come to you with problems and you can help them out. You can help them out academically. So this would have been something that I would needed to share with with the advisory. And I think they actually you you registered your objections. I did. This is this is the first time I kind of registered my objection because I felt. Why did you do that? I mean, look, look what you just told me. I remember what you just told me. You said that at one point in your life, you were like dangerously lost. You found your way out through mentoring that put you into the education field. Then you got a good job that you liked with people you cared for that was meaningful to you and it structured your life. And then you bought into this anti-racist movement, let’s say. And but now you decide you’re not going to do it. So like why you have a lot at stake at this point, a lot. So why? What’s what’s bugging you about this so much? Yeah, I think it I think some things that happened before this where I had spoken to the head of school prior to this and and warned him. I because I immediately thought I was just thinking about anti-racism, anti-racism. Why does that should be a good thing? Why? Why does that bother me? And I what bothered me was that I knew that racism was a concept that had undergone enormous creep, that the people had very different ideas about what was and wasn’t racist to some of the American flag was racist. Things that were, you know, perhaps. Inoculus to some would have been considered racist to others. And then how would you how would you adjudicate what you were actually against? And I saw this as a real threat because it would lead to real problems in determining what it was that you should be anti. And if you if you frame if you frame in your mission something which is anti something vague, you’re really setting yourself up for a witch hunt. And I just sort of especially look especially so we look at this pyramid of white supremacy. Right. And at the top we have genocide. So it’s like the ultimate evil. OK, so that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the ultimate evil. OK, so then you might say, well, maybe your definitions matter when you’re talking about the ultimate evil. And so maybe being vague about exactly what that evil is, especially if it’s convenient for you to be vague, perhaps that’s a little bit ill advised. Perhaps particularly when you’re teaching children. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I said, well, is this the is this the comprehensive list of things that belong on the pyramid? Are there other things that we don’t know that are on the pyramid? And they said, well, you know, there could be. I said, well, that’s nice. So now we have other stuff that’s just in the margins that could be thrown onto this pyramid. Who knows what they’ll be? Maybe maybe. And who knows who will decide exactly like this is OK. So this list is not exhaustive. And that actually scared me more. Why? Well, because it meant that no one could anticipate where the lines were. I mean, kids need boundaries. And so how are the kids supposed to know what is and isn’t if they just have this grab bag of all these possible things that could be associated with the ultimate evil? You know, that it just setting up this whole tripwire situation where they’re just how are they supposed to know how to trust? What is and isn’t falling into the schema that comes out of their mouth or they have a thought of that they want to articulate it? How you’re just setting that you’re setting them up to for anxiety and. Intention and you know who? It means that you’re really, you know, and I began to see this in actual in actual. Discussions people have about it. Kids were restricting themselves to a very narrow set of things to say that they felt were OK to say, you know, and it was all the jargon, you know, it was saying, well, you know, we need to acknowledge our privilege. Yes, we are privileged. You know that privilege makes makes us unable to understand. OK, so what you saw, what you saw as people’s attempts to deal with the ambiguity was that they just stopped saying anything that wasn’t approved. Yeah, that is the way out of it, right? If if what’s negative is ill defined, but what’s positive is listed, then you just stick with the list. You stick with the list. Yeah, you stick with the list. And. And then there were a problem with that exactly. So the kids stick with the list. Why? Why is that bothering you? Well, it’s it’s because it means that, you know, events, the multiplicity of possible reasons for things that that change that are different depending on the actual incident. And that means that you’re not making sense of the world for yourself. You’re following a script. I don’t think that’s OK. So now you’re you’re watching this. It’s having an impact on you. It’s having an impact on the students. What’s the impact on the students? OK, so now you’re you’re watching this. It’s having an impact on you. It’s having an impact on the students. What’s the impact on the students? Personally, too, I feel OK. Some of it was personal, but also I was seeing it in the students and particularly in the most recent years. It’s sort of like when you go to a meeting and everybody is the people, there are people that are silent and there are people that are that are talking and the people that are talking or saying all the right things. And the people that are silent are listless and disengaged and just waiting for it to end. And then that listlessness and disengagement is being framed as resistance by the people who are running the meeting. There are the people that are in charge of delivering the anti-racist programming. And then there’s there are meetings about how to get because that’s indifference. Yeah. And so they actually call it a pyramid of white supremacy that they’re not going to be able to do it. Right. Exactly. And so it’s a way to use a structural metaphor to transfer all of the life force that’s in the system. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so that’s the way it works. And so it’s a way to use a structural metaphor to transfer all of the like all of the the weight of genocide onto all the little things. I am not saying it very well, but I think you know what I mean. So why so we would get we’ve got an email. I remember getting an email from the Office of Community Engagement that said we were looking for ways to target white white disengagement and white was in brackets. Right. It’s almost as if we were embarrassed to say it. But it’s it’s white. It’s white disengagement. Right. And that’s sort of like we’re going to say it, but we don’t really want to say it. And that just made me a little bit even more upset because it meant that if you’re not you’re not even going to be honest about what you’re calling it, you’re going to try to have it both ways. So, and what’s happening among your colleagues at this point, you’re becoming dissatisfied. Yeah, I think the nature of your private conversations are you starting to be isolated? No, I mean, I, I still getting along well with the college with my colleagues and you know there, there are some that I have conversations with. And they’ll you know they’ll say well I won’t go as far as you but I definitely think there’s something not so great about this. You know, I think it’s, you know, the other other colleagues were concerned about the same things I will, I was, I think, free expression and the ability to entertain you to have different ideas and to talk about the framework and, you know, and maybe challenge it, the whole thing. So yeah, I was, I wasn’t alone in my doubts for sure. Did you ever wonder if it was you going off the rails. Sure, sure. I mean, I still felt, you know, I still felt like it was perhaps me, you know, in the way that, you know, because I have had privilege in my life, I’ve had I’ve had substantial privilege in my life. I would call it, you know, opportunity and I’m grateful for it. One of the things that I learned about studying the aftermath of the Russian Revolution was that privilege creeps too. Because it’s very, very hard to find someone who isn’t privileged in some manner. Like the only person who isn’t privileged in some manner is the person in the world who’s suffering more than anyone else. There’s only one of him or her. Everyone else is privileged. So you can expand the net of guilt indefinitely by focusing on privilege. Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t like the way that it was being used to discount people’s people’s ideas. You know, I mean, if you’re if you’re if you have an educational institution, ideas are the whole are everything, you know, and the idea there should be you should be talking about ideas based on what make ideas sound or unsound, not not the person who’s saying them. So I was seeing situations where, you know, white students would make a claim and then that claim was discounted by someone else because of their privilege. And they’re making, of course, the white supremacist assumption that there are such things as ideas and that they can be rank order in terms of quality and that the purpose of discursive speech is precisely to do such things and etc. Etc. Yeah. And so the whole solipsistic nature of it, I was like, this is you can’t even have a conversation. This is not this is not a way to have a functioning. You’re not you’re not preparing people to function in a in a truly variegated world of ideas. It’s not well, it’s worse in some sense that the claim fundamental claim is that there’s no such thing as a conversation. There’s just different discourses of power. There’s no conversation. Conversation assumes ideas and the free flow of ideas and the an irrational individual actor and the capacity for logos and and the individual as the central unit and and so on and so forth. People who hold the critical race position, let’s say, don’t. It’s not that they avoid confrontational conversations. They don’t believe that there’s such a thing as a conversation. It’s not part of the system. So it’s a fundamental dispute. Yeah, no, that’s true. I mean, and I and then the little things like I remember talking to a colleague about a new about a new hire and then and she said, I said, well, well, what’s he like? This new guy. And she said, well, he’s like you. He’s like me. Well, what do you mean by that? And she was like, oh, he’s white. As I think, okay. All right. You know, this is not a person that’s a total stranger me either and I kind of walked away and like, really? So, okay. And, you know, I also I also hear the objection to my to my objection, which is, you know, see how it feels white man. See how it feels to be treated as your race. That is, it’s a, you know, she might have been trying to teach me a lesson in some sense like now you know how it feels. But that’s not, you know, okay, that’s that’s a point that you’re making. But that’s not that’s not a healthy thing. And that’s not that’s not good because it doesn’t actually reduce the some to the world. Yeah, I mean, yeah. All right, so you’re starting to get feel disquiet and you actually make this known. Yes, and I make it known in 2019. I make it known in 2020. I talked to the assistant head. I talked to the head of school. You’re married. I recently married I was I’ve been married over a year just over a year. Do you have any children? No children. No children, but you are married and I’m okay. So I’m just wondering what you have resting on your job. Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t, you know, I have to say that, you know, not having kids is is a huge part of why I feel like this is happening, that I’ve been able to stick my neck out. And, you know, I’m not not. I don’t judge anyone for for for balancing their duty to the truth and their duty to their family in whatever way that works for them, because both of them are important. I think that putting things at risk, you know, that’s that’s a personal choice. And that’s, I can’t speak to any of that. But I think it definitely not having mouths to feed and you know, having having some savings from my previous job and things. Being smart with my money and not spending it unwisely as I have as I had done a decade and a half ago. But I think that that helped me to do what I’m doing. All right. So how are you being treated by the administrative officials to whom you’re registering your objection? Are you doing that in writing? Are you doing that in person? I’m in person, you know, mostly in person. And, you know, I’m not writing anything official. I’m I’m in the grumbling in my beard phase, I guess I’m in the griping phase where I would go and I would say, you know, this is wrong. Like, why can’t we teach, you know, a broad range of viewpoints? Why do we always have to teach this ritualistic thing that’s just a litany of, you know, basically far left ideas and, you know, some of some some of the administration were very even overly so. Like I remember talking to the assistant head, he pulled down a copy of Jonathan Haidt off the off the bookshelf and was like, I’d love to teach this in my class. I really want to make this happen. I want to teach, you know, so, you know, more more than I was, sort of, or maybe just modeling it or humoring me or something. But he had the book. He had the book. That’s right. And he knew the book and he knew where it was on his shelf. I know. I know. So like, but, you know, then in public, you know, or in public in the in front of the community, you’re not saying nothing about it. Right. So I think there is a tremendous amount of preference falsification still going on there. Yeah. You know, well, you outlined why. Yeah, you lost your job. Yeah. So, you know, these are high stakes games and you make a mistake and and a mistake. You you veer outside the the realm of acceptable behavior, let’s say. And what happens? Well, you get disproportionately punished for it. And there’s a moral element to it, too, which is, well, there’s no bloody way someone like you should be teaching. So not only did we fire you, but we’re right to do so. Yeah. So and, you know, that’s very hard thing to withstand, which is something I also want to talk to you about. I mean, you know, confident, though you may be or anyone may be when your institution sheds you and surrounds that with accusations about the nature of your character. If you’re not a complete psychopath, it tends to strike you to your heart. Because there’s always the possibility that you’re wrong. Right. Right. But I really I really knew I wasn’t because, you know, coming out. There was this meeting and I referred to it in the article or my essay, the self care through an anti bias lens meeting, which is what kicked off the whole past two months for me. It was a it was a meeting where students were ostensibly going to learn how to take care of themselves during the pandemic, how to manage their emotions, how to take deep breaths and cope with things. And in that meeting, you know, after some some mind relaxing exercises like meditation and and stuff, they put up the white supremacy, you know, aspects of white supremacy culture slide. And that’s different than the pyramid or this is different than the pyramid. And this is, you know, this is elements of white supremacy. Right. Right. It’s actually, you know, there’s different forms of it. But essentially, you know, it’s. It’s fairly common in this in this thing, as you know, and. Yes. So here’s some professional and transactional relationships versus relationships based on trust, care and shared commitments, protecting power versus sharing power, culture of overworking versus culture of self care and community care competition and struggle for limited resources. Versus collaboration and working to share resources. That’s all white dominant culture. So. Yes, yes. And so some of the things that were on this particular slide were objectivity, individualism, either or thinking. Right. Right. And I know that one. There was, you know, the, the thing that rankled me the most was right to comfort. Because, you know, how are you giving a self care workshop where the 200 kids that are in there in this racially segregated workshop are challenged that they might not, you know, that having imagining that you have a right to comfort is associated with the right to comfort. You know, genocide or evil. Kenneth Jones and Tima Oaken, Dismantling Racism Workbook 2001. God only knows what that is, but it’s everywhere. The characteristics of white supremacy culture, perfectionism, which is an element of conscientiousness, which is a fundamental trait, sense of urgency, defensiveness, quantity, and over quality, worship of the written word, paternalism, either or thinking. Notice this is all written in words, by the way, power hoarding, fear of open conflict, individualism, which seems to be run somewhat counter to the fear of open conflict. Progress is bigger and more objectivity, right to comfort. Yeah, it’s, it’s quite the grab bag of conceptually unrelated items. It’s incoherent at every possible level of analysis, as well as being it’s, it’s impossible to parody. Yeah. Yeah. And I saw it and I, you know, I had been thinking for a couple months prior to this because there had been some meetings that really upset me. And I was thinking, well, and my head of school had actually said that if I was in an appropriate forum, I should feel free to ask questions. By this point in the meeting, I think maybe 30 minutes in before this popped up, other faculty had been saying things in the chat area of the zoom meeting. So you know, is that anonymous? Is that anonymous in the zoom? No, it’s, it’s, they were. Yeah. And so I thought, well, why, you know, when the, when the facilitator had mentioned that if you looked at this slide, I think she said, I think she said, you know, you might have some white feelings. And I said, I just kind of blurted out, I didn’t, I didn’t blurt it out angrily. I just kind of said, well, I don’t know. I think she said, you know, you might have some white feelings. And I said, I just kind of blurted out, I didn’t, I didn’t blurt it out angrily. I didn’t flirt it out. I don’t think I was too upset. Of course, you know, I, I don’t know how it was perceived, of course, but I said, well, what do you mean, but what is a white feeling? What is a white feeling? And I, you know, what came back was, I think she said something that defensiveness was a white feeling. I said, well, these feelings can belong to people of any race. And, you know, I think that it’s, I don’t know whether it’s, I don’t understand why it’s being attributed to particular white people. And, you know, I had that kind of opened the gates a little bit and kind of broke the ice, I think, because in the chat, other kids started to ask questions. There was a debate about whether I should be allowed to ask the question. There was a question, you mean the question about the white feeling question. There were also some, there was a lot of capitalism bashing in the chat and I said, you know, I believe capitalism is anti racist, since it’s done more to lift people of all races out of poverty than any, any alternative. And, you know, I wasn’t monopolizing the chat I was dropping in little things and there was a lot of activity in the chat. And then the facilitator actually went with me and she, she explained stuff, you know, her perspective on it and I thanked her and you know she moved on some more and I think I asked another question but I really as she said later in a meeting about the meeting in front of the whole faculty, she felt that I, you know, I was asking out of curiosity, didn’t, I wasn’t, you know, on a rant or saying it to be antagonistic. I think some of the, some of my faculty members felt that I was but the facilitator herself didn’t feel that way so and she was the one I was talking to so I think that definitely counts. Definitely counts. Well that’s quite remarkable I would say because it’s very difficult in a group like that when you know the implicit ethos to be able to say something that’s questioning without having anger build up as a motivation right because you need something to break through your resistance. Yeah, so to be able to say it without upsetting the, the facilitator. I mean I was passionate but I wasn’t, I don’t think I was like enraged or anything like that. It’s you know I was trying to modulate what I was really upset I was that was the either or thing because I was like well if either or thinking is a is a characteristic of white supremacy well then Ibram Kendi’s got to be the whitest person in public life, because his entire philosophy is so Manichean. I mean, anyway, so but I didn’t say that of course because that would have been inflammatory but what I really wanted to do I’ve been thinking about an opportunity because I wanted to model for the students that you could ask questions that someone who, who was a teacher or someone who was an authority figure could ask a question and it was okay. And how did the students react to it was it was phenomenal I mean I was really gratified and that they confirmed that my. It confirmed that I had doing the right thing because things came out in the chat. They started to ask a broader range of questions I received the track transcript later and you know it was like night and day kids were asking questions like well I don’t feel like I’m ignorant just because I’m white, or you know I don’t like to be reduced to my race and then faculty joined in so several faculty members also started to ask questions. You know, and I don’t think the point was that they people they even people even necessarily wanted their questions answered in the forum they just wanted to ask them. I got. Exactly like this, this, that’s why I think intent is so it’s kind of a silly thing because you never really, it’s only an ex post facto explanation. If you’re called on it, I think like a true question there may be no intent. Like it just bubbles out of view. If you’re if you’re truly in it in a conversation I’m not thinking about. Okay, I’m not it’s not like I’m plucking this little thing out of the inside of my head and like well I intend this to be, you know, that’s not communication that’s not if it’s a genuine conversation. No, you don’t have time for that in a genuine conversation. No, yeah, of course not. And so, you know, but I was really gratified, I was on a natural high from the experience. Why. Why. Well, because I felt that I had, you know, I had done something good, like it was just self evidently good to me like it just when I reflected on it, this is a positive thing. Now, there was one of the my colleagues got very upset with me with my influence on this and because at one point I did say, you know why, you know, I don’t identify as white. And so, you know, in fact, I internalized society’s delusions about me, which is, you know, like, it’s kind of like the neutron bomb to this entire belief system, but I was on I was on I felt like it was something I wanted to put out there. And I wanted to see it. And, you know, understand you know that maybe this is a point of view, you know, I’m not saying I’m right I’m mad I’m asking a question. And you know the feeling was that this was, you know, some defense. I was just morally obligated to accept these characterizations, right, which is kind of the whole point of anti racism is that you’re not obligated to accept arbitrary racial categories that are unrelated to the task at hand. Yeah, it should be. But, you know, then a colleague got upset with me and said, kind of got on his high horse and said, you know, I can’t believe that I may be miss, you know, paraphrasing here and if I am sorry. But he said, I believe, you know, I can’t believe that a member of our, you know, one of my colleagues doesn’t understand that we are white, that we are white since birth I am white since birth that this has carries with it implicit biases that are unavoidable, and we must affirm that, you know, and that’s who that’s who we are and that’s why I’m and I just kind of interrupted him because I felt like he was kind of making me look. I was being kind of kind of a jerk so I interrupted him and said, you know, I’m sorry you’re stereotyping yourself, I think it’s sad. And, you know, that kind of was a very awkward moment, because it was in front of students. And he said, you know, he expressed his dismay. And I remained silent. And then after the meeting I said I apologize to him I said you know that was unprofessional. Well, you know, I, I understood I felt it I felt that there might have been a better way that I could do it. Maybe wait till we finished and then ask, you know, to respond. I, I’m, I’m also suspicious of my own, you know, because I am, I have been somewhat oppositional I’m not exactly like a Mr go long and get along guy with this stuff that I don’t always have the best reality check on my own behavior. And so I, you know, I was just saying well okay if I if I did cause offense then you know I feel like it’s okay to apologize and there probably was a better way for me to do this. And so I did apologize and, you know, thought about it, you know, nothing against that nothing wrong with that and then he accepted. And, you know, I figured that was that was it, and there was a lot of processing after the meeting I think that went on for hours afterwards my phone died it was on my phone and so when I went home. I logged back into the meeting and people were still there talking, I talked to them. I underestimated the effect of this because apparently some of my, some of my comments, you know were leaked or may or transmitted to other people that weren’t in the meetings, people that were in the, the BIPOC meeting, you know, particularly my, my BIPOC is a black and indigenous people of color. So they were having their separate meeting of faculty and students where they receive different content. And why was it separate. The reason why I was asked to do this is because I think it’s a good reason to do this. I think it’s a good reason to do this. 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Yeah, this year. So things are starting to snow. And that was referred to after the fact as the events of Wednesday. They couldn’t even really, it was sort of like 9-11. They couldn’t actually, they had to come up with a euphemism for it, I guess. So the events of Wednesday. And so they had meetings about the events of Wednesday. And Wednesday. Well, the Office of Community Engagement, coupled with the Dean of Student Life, and there are Dean level positions that exerted a lot of effort and energy, because I did not make their lives easy, to address the things that were said and raised in the meeting, not just by me, but by lots of different people. And students, students spoke up as well. And faculty. And so what I found it so interesting, because the day after the meeting, there was an email that was released that said, healing resources. You know, healing resources that will help you come to terms with what happened. And the first healing resource on the list was a CNN interview with a poet named Damon Young. And Damon Young, you know, in this interview, said things like, you know, we need to get rid of all of capitalism. We will have to do a carpet bombing, not a carpet cleansing of society. And it was incredibly radical statements that were, I would imagine, would be frightening to many people. And that was listed as a healing resource, as well as things like… As long as the carpet bombing only targets the malevolent people. Well, yeah, I guess. And then things, there was a Robin DiAngelo article that said, you know, what white people need to be made or kept uncomfortable. How can we become more uncomfortable? Also, you know, really kind of, I would just say, racist characterizations of white people in these links. Things like, you know, white people have never had to be guests in this country. Like the Irish, for example. They weren’t really white to begin with, though. Yeah, yeah. And so I found this very ironic. And then I had a series, I had two meetings. I had a meeting with my head of high school and the assistant head. And I had a meeting with the head of the whole school. And then, you know, I, the head of the meeting with the head of high school. They called you in at that point? Yeah, I mean, what’s happening around you? Is this growing? This is this… Well, yeah, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of agitation. There’s meetings about meetings. There’s student diversity council meetings. There are, there’s just a lot of agitation in the community, I would say. And meetings about meetings. So some of the things that would happen would be in the week, in the end, as the week continued, there was a faculty meeting about it. I had some advisory circles, circle practice was taken away because they felt that it would be the students would be upset if I was a part of it. So the dean had to run my advisory. So the advisory circle is what? Well, it was it’s a it’s a practice that we’ve started this year, where activities, where you put up a slide and you talk about an issue and then everyone has to go around and speak one by one about a question and then you kind of do it around twice. And then, you know, this is to sort of manage discussion. And I’ve done a couple of your persona non grata at this now because you’re toxic influence on the students. Right. Right. And so, you know, I got it. I got an email saying, you know, under current circumstances following yesterday’s meeting in your role and what transpired, you know, I’ve asked you to recuse yourself. Then, you know, there were subsequent meetings, there was a faculty meeting. I think at that faculty meeting, a colleague said, well, this is this could be terrible. This could undo everything we’ve ever taught them, which I thought to myself, please, please. I hope so. But the. And there are you. How are you reacting to all this? Well, I’m on a natural high. I mean, I know that I feel like this is something that I’ve finally done to. To open up something like some daylight. And I all of this churn is going on around me, but I’m going about my day and I’m teaching my classes. I am. You know, I did feel the need to address my classes. So I said at the beginning, you know, I am an anti racist. You know, I want you to feel safe. And then I would just sort of teach the class. And then I was told not to address it with the class with anyone in the classes. I had written I had sort of had a sort of, I guess, a manic kind of outbreak at this point, like I felt so much energy and and enthusiasm that I was writing in my notebook a lot. And I developed a kind of I had a sort of creative outpouring through all of this. I don’t know whether it’s maybe like a cyclothemic reaction or something to it, because I felt like my soul has kind of awakened. No, I was having a lot of trouble sleeping. I was, you know, maybe getting three hours a night and I would wake up. I would wake up at like four in the morning, just being like wide awake. And I’d go and I’d start writing and I’d write a lot of ideas down. And I felt like it was really productive. And what do you think of the ideas that you were producing during that time? I’ve this type of thing has happened before and I’ve I’ve looked at them with later eyes and I don’t think that I’ve kind of felt the despair that they weren’t that there wasn’t much value to them. But this time, one thing I might point out is that, you know, writing writing is overproduction followed by culling. Right. And so you’ll have periods of overproduction and you probably throw 90 percent of that away. But maybe you keep 10 percent and that’s a lot more than zero. Yeah, yeah. I mean, mostly what I was doing was illustrating a kind of geometry like I had. I had these two axes and I was sort of laying things out on them because I was trying to make sense of of the whole problem of of racism and the difference between reality and truth and how those things are kind of orthogonal. And I kind of laid out a schema that made sense to me that would that was kind of explaining the whole problem. And, you know, it still does make sense to me and I still think that there’s tremendous value in it and I just need to want to keep working on it. But yeah, well, it’s common that those those those periods of creativity there, they’re revelatory thinking and that can be over emotional. And yeah, it’s tangential. But but it’s it’s grift for further milling. Yeah, yeah, and it did grist grist grist grist great grist. Crystal. So I all of this was happening around me, but I felt like a kind of stoic indifference to it because I felt a sort of awakening in me that that that made all the hubbub sort of irrelevant. It sounds like you had decided to do this. Yeah, I think I think I had been waiting sort of unconsciously waiting for an opportunity. And when it happened, when I blurted things out and it happened, then I embraced it and I realized that I had I was not ashamed and I was not contrite. And I was proud. I was actually proud. And when you know and then when did you write the essay that that that was oh yeah Barry Weiss. I don’t want to rush you if there’s more to unpack I’d like to hear it. I realize that you know I don’t want to you know attack you as either, but I had I knew I wanted to write about the whole thing so I had taken a lot of notes over the years and so my first draft was about 5000 words. And it contained a lot of information centered around the actual zoom meeting, and then, you know, the effects on the students. And you know what had happened to me. And then I realized like what the reason why I did, why I said the thing in the meeting in the first place was because I was trying to model for the students and that was what was animating me. And so I, you know, I handed it off to a friend who edited and really hacked it way down, you know, cut out a lot of this stuff and then I did another draft, where I was really trying to get to the main ideas and boil them down as crisply as I could. And then Barry took a look at it and and how did you make changes Barry through the fair through fair because I had been volunteering with them for a couple of months now. And fair, just so everyone knows is a foundation against intolerance and racism. And you know we, you know, I was in the process of, I still am, you know, helping to build the organization and select chapter leadership and in various states, so that we can really, we’re in this sort of networking phase because I’m calling people have given us their names and I’m calling people and. And what I’m finding is that everyone has a story, so I can’t just be on the phone with them for, you know, 15 minutes and all the volunteers are finding this that there’s a tremendous outpouring. It’s very emotional. They’ll talk about what’s happening with their kids, they’ll talk about the data they didn’t suspect that anything was wrong in the culture until maybe a year ago and now it’s clear to them and they want to do something. And so you really have to really have to listen before you can, you know, just operationally try to plug people in and you know a lot of times it’s, it’s, it really feels like I’m not a therapist but it feels like at the peak I was making like five calls a day, and each of those for about an hour. And you wind up really having having an engagement with another human being. So this is starting to inform your writing. Yeah, definitely thinking about what’s going on at the school. Yeah, and so I’m starting I’m starting to feel like I have a lot of people that I’m, you know, that are that this is something that’s becoming kind of a duty, like almost a moral duty. So, yeah, so that’s kind of the, the background to that and then. And then the article came out, and I waited and there’s just a tremendous iPad an email at the bottom of the article and I was expecting like 50% positive 50% negative I would be happy if it was 50% positive now, I realized later it’s on Barry Weiss’s sub stack and mostly her I’m not a fan of bands but I put the email on some other places and. And I was just amazed that, you know, maybe 500 emails in the first two days, and, and long emails like me people writing. And, you know, some of them are just a word or a subject line but people had a lot to say a lot of stories. And I’ve spent a couple hours each day since then going through them and responding to everyone because it’s really important to do that, I think that, you know, I feel I feel like it’s just, I can’t just, you know, ignore them or just give like a one sentence thing because some of these. I try to, you know, I try to respond and please one or two sentences in a way that addresses their particular situation, and then I, and I try to direct them to fair as you know as an organization that can help. And all people of all different backgrounds. People wrote in from other countries, and what are they telling you in the main. And I support just a lot of what I’m getting I’m just getting a lot of pats in the back, just like yes you know. Good for you. Bravo, like, you know, this is amazing. Keep doing it keep doing what you’re doing I support you. You know 100% this is a huge problem, you know, and you’re standing up for it and what you’re doing is right and, you know, and, and. So you publish this and Barry Weiss is sub stack. And the school reacts. What happens, well they make the claim that that I, you know, some of what I’ve written is, is a mischaracterization. And, you know, they’re not trying to, you know, they, they, I think it’s a little blurry to me now actually because so much has happened since so I kind of have to reconstruct what happened, but in this time so the article came out on the, I believe on the 13th. And, you know, I had a contract assigned for the following year. And part of that contract, my contract is up this current contract is up at the end of August, but the deadline for me to sign next year’s contract was April 15, and as one of the The other thing was that I had to attend restorative justice practices designed by the school to address the harm that I had caused students of color and other students. I see so you are obliged to be guilty enough to go to be retrained. Right, and you know the details of the of this process would be revealed to me after I signed. So I was signing something that I didn’t, you know, I wouldn’t know what I was signing. I was waiting for an admission of culpability and guilt. Right, right. Now, specified nature. Right and now participation. I thought about it was like participation doesn’t mean that I have to, you know, say me a copa I can participate in it. It was an opportunity for me to engage, you know, and I thought about it but then I said well it would mean that I was signing on to it mean that I was legitimizing it by signing it and so I decided not to sign it. Because if I if I put my word on it, then it would mean that I was saying that that was an appropriate request to make of someone. So I didn’t say did you manage to make that decision. Well I just really just delayed it and thought about it. And then I talked to friends about it. And then I, I realized that no I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna let it lapse, because, you know, I’m, I’m, I’ve reinvented myself before. I have several careers, I have math skills, coding skills. I figured, you know, if I didn’t work for grace, I could find I could land on my feet somehow. I didn’t, I don’t have kids, so there, there were had it I felt like I had options, you know, I felt like no matter what happened. I had faith that I would be okay. So I, you know, I felt like I could kind of decide whether this was this was right for me or not and I could teach somewhere else maybe not. You know, in New York, maybe I could find like a private boarding school or something that was more aligned with my views or my values. Have the offers come flooding in? Yeah, I mean since the article, you know, places in Coral Gables was like come to Coral Gables, we’ll give you, you know, we’ll, we need someone for our math program, Texas, Arizona. Pennsylvania. I’m very pleasant and surprised to hear that. Yeah, and you know, I, my fears of being canceled are completely obvious, you know, blown away because, you know, that it’s the opposite of that, I would say. Now I’m sure, I’m sure there are people that wouldn’t touch me with a 10 foot pole. But do I want to work for them? I mean, it’s sort of like a self selecting thing now, you know, I did this thing. The world has sorted itself out. There are people that would hire me. And so those are the people that I will, that I could work with and then what do I need to, why do I need to worry about people who don’t want me? It’s kind of like, all right. So, and also have to move forward on false pretenses. Yeah, yeah. And, but I think my main, my main gratitude that I feel is that, is that I made, you know, I made my dad proud and, and my mother is not with me, not with us anymore, but she would have been proud of me. Why did it matter to you? Well, you know, he’s a, I consider him to be very important person. And he taught me so much. He taught me how to write. He taught me how to think. He’s a, he’s a law professor. He was until he retired recently. And he was a great, he was a real teacher. He wasn’t a, he wasn’t so much of a publisher. He was a teacher and he was very popular, very talented. And, and he would always engage me in Socratic discourse. And he always wanted me to think for myself. And, you know, I did, I do feel like I’ve probably been a disappointment more than months to put it, to put it mildly over the years. And so having the opportunity, you know, he’s 88, having this chance to sort of do this thing, maybe just one act. Maybe I won’t write anything ever again, but at least I’ve done this thing and talking to him about it. And it’s a good feeling. Now the school has stopped you from teaching, apart from the fact that you’ve not signed the upcoming contract. Right. They had, they offered me, they offered me something I thought was kind of creative. They offered me the chance to participate in a subcommittee of the Institutional Culture Committee, which is a committee that’s centered around designing an anti-racist culture for the school. Now I would work on the direct supervision of the supervision of the assistant head. But it would, they wouldn’t let me teach math, they wouldn’t let me have an advisory, they would take away all my teaching duties. And that’s basically what I would do for the next, you know, the next five months until my contract expires. So I thought of that. I think that what it really is, is just a way to co-opt me and to sort of put me in a kind of rubber room. I mean, I don’t have any confidence whatsoever that any of my, you know, any of my suggestions or contributions would be taken seriously, which would involve like complete upending of the entire program to account for free expression and viewpoint diversity and, you know, different, completely different epistemology. I don’t feel that they’re going to take that seriously. And so if, you know, I’m not sure if my continued employment, you know, I don’t think that’s going to be helpful. And what were the grounds for stopping you from teaching? Well, how was that framed? Exactly. Yeah, that was an interesting thing. So I received a threat from a member of the community. It wasn’t a physical threat. It was a menacing threat that was centered around my, my employment, my livelihood. You know, it said a lot of things like don’t dare come back to the school. Your life is going to change. Your future is, you know, you’re going to be canceled. You’re you’re never going to be able to work anywhere. You know, the this we will see to it that you’re it was a menacing email. So I reported this email to the school and, you know, the school got back to me or the head of school got back to me and said, well, you know, if you don’t feel safe as you don’t feel safe, we don’t ask that we might we think it’s a good idea if you stayed home and taught remotely. You know, only over Zoom and don’t come onto the school grounds. And I wrote back to them. I said, well, actually, I do feel safe. I want to come to school. I like to teach in person. And, you know, I expect I was simply bringing this to your attention so that you could take care of this problem. And then they wrote back saying, well, as you know, we will be polling the students and community members to find out whether this opinion is shared by other people. So they treated this menacing email as an opinion. And they said, you know, subsequent to that, they said, well, since the school, you know, community feels that they can’t participate in your classes because they were probably objecting to your right to comfort. Yeah, probably. You know, and I said things like, well, I fully expect you to maintain order and security in the school. I mean, that’s that’s something that you should. And I find it rather odd that if if, you know, someone who sent a menacing email to me should not have to stay home, but I should have to stay home. What is the why am I the one that has to stay home? Why why isn’t this other person staying home? So but they didn’t have much sympathy for that point of view. So rather it was this this threat was taken as a kind of, you know, example of people’s feelings of of unsafeness around me. So I was I was asked to say, right, you provoke them to that. Right. Right. Exactly. Now, you also exchanged an opinion or two publicly with the if I’ve got this right with the headmaster, you said that in a conversation he had indicated his agreement with your proposition that white people, but children in your formulation to begin with were being demonized by the curriculum. And you made that claim and he said that was not true. And then you released the audio, which I reviewed and which seems to clearly indicate that he did, in fact, say exactly what you said he said. That’s right. That’s right. Let me ask you something, George, because I think those are I think there’s something very different about having a single experience where you make sense of it. Right. And having a teacher, an authority figure talk to you endlessly every year telling you that because you have whiteness, you are associated with evils, all these different evils. These are moral evils. It’s not the same as taking like a physical thing because it doesn’t affect your your your moral value. That’s the problem. The the the fact is that I’m agreeing with you that there has been a demonization that we need to get our hands around in the way in which people are doing this understanding. So you agree that you were demonizing kids were demonizing kid were demonizing white people for being born. And are some of our students white people? Yes. OK, so we’re demonizing white. We’re demonizing white kids. Why don’t you just say we are using language that makes them feel less than for nothing that they are personally responsible for any doubt. Because I’ve known you for nine years of your sincerity in your belief. And I also have grave doubts about some of the doctrinaire stuff that gets spouted at us in the name of anti-racism. Like what? And so I don’t disagree entirely with some of your points of view. Can you elaborate on that? I don’t think I can. I don’t think I can. I think that one of the things that’s going on a little too much and we’ve talked about this is that the demonization of being white and and the So what’s going on? So what’s going on? I think that one of the things that’s going on a little too much and we’ve talked about this is that the demonization of being white and and the attempt to link anybody who’s white to the perpetuation of white supremacy. Thank you. Thank you, George. So there is no question that there is an entire strain in here that causes that misinterpretation. Now, I am so much more. Wait a minute. But what about impact over intent? Don’t those kids get the benefit of impact over intent? Our attempt is going to be to get everybody centered again. All right. I will tell you, I mean, that’s a huge task because I will tell you that we are. If you if you try to do that. There there are already like the barn doors open and they’re all in the barn. I mean, they’re going to they’re going to they’re fighting a revolution that you don’t even know they’re fighting and grace. They’re going to hollow out grace and they’re going to move on to the next institution. That’s what’s going to happen. Like I think that they’ve hollowed out a bunch of other ones ahead of us. So, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. You’re just you’re just a little stone in the path. This beautiful, wonderful institution that’s educated so many children over so over almost a century is over. What was the consequences for him of that? I have no idea because I haven’t heard anything in the in the two days since the audio has been released at this point. So it’s so he’s in radio as far as you know, as far as I know, yes, I don’t know what’s happening there. I’m I’m not privy to I mean, I still have email. My email account is still active, but I don’t you know, I haven’t seen any communications about anything. So I don’t know his situation. There hasn’t been any statement from the school at this point. OK, so a couple of things that we should cover before we stop. What do you what are your feelings about the importance of what is transpiring around you to broader, let’s say, educational society? Let’s let’s start with that with with with regard to teachers and students in private and public institutions, high schools, junior high elementary schools. In your state and across your country, what what do you see this? If anything, what does this indicate? Well, I have hopes, you know, I feel that if if students can if I if the type of. You know, willingness to ask a question in response to some of these, you know, what I consider to be indoctrination, frankly, at other schools. And you think that’s happening in other schools? Yeah, I mean, it’s no question because of the calls that I’ve received in the conversations I’ve had with people all over Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey. The parents are very concerned with their children. They’ve seen it because of the pandemic through the through the zoom zoom classes. They witnessed what’s being taught to their kids. And they’re very, very concerned and they have specific receipts to back it up. And, you know, they’re sending me curriculum. So, you know, I have this is not simply a rarefied independent school problem. This is happening at school boards and districts all over the country. A lot of it’s spurred by the, you know, the George Floyd killing and the reaction to it. I believe it was taken as an opportunity to, you know, redress that with misguided. Yeah, an opportunity for what? It’s like I’m trying to figure out. I keep trying to figure out because I’ve been concerned about this for a long time and I still can’t get to the bottom of it. It’s like I don’t understand exactly. I know there’s a resentment element to it, but I can’t understand exactly what’s driving this and why it’s despite the fact that it’s clearly the view of a very small minority of people, perhaps 5%. That’s what the surveys seem to indicate. I cannot understand why it’s making the headway that it’s making at the rate that it’s making and what it’s really aiming at. What do you think about that? But what’s your sense? Because obviously it’s bothering you. Yeah, I think I have a sense why and maybe it’s a theory. It’s not just my theory, but it’s I’ve seen in other places are hinted at in other places. I think when you sort of, you know, over the past few decades, you have a gradual sort of leeching from the soil of society of sort of a moral sense, a moral tradition, moral grounding in, you know, long, long religious traditions, essentially, when they depart from the public sphere, it leaves a kind of vacuum. And, you know, wokeness is a way to sort of sort of paint by numbers, moral righteousness, and it gives people the sense that they’re good people. I think people have an almost, you know, I don’t know whether it’s evolutionarily based, but they have a need to have a moral character and sense of themselves. And if, and if something comes along, which is going to offer that and give you that thing, well, then there’s a tremendous hunger for it. So people will adopt it quickly. And so you can have, you know, a very small percentage of the population that’s pushing it can have a real powerful outsize influence. Do you do you have a traditional religious belief of any sort and are you a practicing religious person? I am. I am. It’s a really good question. I am. I was raised Catholic. And I, you know, was lapsed. You know, I have a joke that I use sometimes you know I’m so lapsed I’m prolapsed. But basically, I, you know, was a functioning agnostic than atheist. And, but I, I don’t feel like I really need a lot of God. But I do need to have something which is like a conscience like I guess I believe in a conscience. I believe in some little mirror of the divine which sort of is is in me, it’s not like above me or around me but it is within me and so it’s sort of like a reflective thing that I can. I can be sort of reactivated I guess and as part of this whole experience. So I can, I can take in the world and the world of reality but I can reflect it against something which is not of this world. I don’t know how to describe it and then that’s pretty good. What comes back. I’m satisfied with that answer. You know, like what comes back is something that I should attend to. And that is something that is that it is, it is something important. And that is the, you know, and now that I feel like I have that or own awareness of that, you know, it’s just like, you know, you know, okay like I’ve got. Thank God been there exactly thank God I want to say thank God but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know, I don’t know that there’s a God with a capital G. So that there’s something which is, which is not of this world but is in this world. And it’s, it’s, it’s not out there. So, what do you think. Okay, so what about when I read you. Oh, I have two questions. The first question is why did you. One of the questions is why did you agree to talk to me and the second question is what do you have to say to teachers who are wrestling with their conscience in relationship to this issue. So let’s start with that one. Start with the second one. No, yeah, with their with the teachers, what do you have to say I mean, you already said you’re not interested in judging people for their decisions but no, you’ve been through this you thought about it like. What’s your conclusion and what and your, your hope, or if it’s not a recommendation maybe it’s a hope. I would just say you know stand up for the truth, and whatever way you can, if you if you feel, if you have that same reflective process within yourself process within yourself or you if what I’m saying makes sense to you in terms of your, your sense of right and wrong. If you feel that what you’re being asked to teach or what your students are being are going through is wrong. Then, way that like like do it smartly but but really take it seriously and and why, why, why, why, because, because it’s crucial it’s it’s it’s what will save us. If you don’t, if you don’t stand up crucial. That’s a hell of a word to use in that context. Yeah, right. Yeah, the root of that. Yeah. You, you, you know the, you’re being asked, you’re being called to do something. And, you know, it doesn’t mean that you have to, like, run around and proclaim, you know, and save the world it just means you have to do something in a way that is constructive and well thought out. And, and will that will help the immediate circumstances in which you find yourself and help to, you know, set an example. And if you don’t, and if you don’t. Well, then it’s you’re leaving it up to the next guy, maybe the next guy isn’t up to it and maybe the next guy isn’t up to it and maybe the next guy isn’t up to it and then what happens then then you’ve, then you’ve, you may not get it, you may not get a chance. If all you can teach is the words on the appropriate list, you could just be replaced by the list. Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, the thing that’s so wonderful about teaching is that you get to make contact with someone else with you. And so if that’s being whittled away in favor of the approved list, then there isn’t a hell of a lot of room for you. And it’s kind of hard for me to say, see how you could take any derive any source of meaningful engagement from your job if you’ve been reduced to a set of moralistic platitudes, especially when extreme punishment accompanies deviation from them. So that’s the thing I always noticed when I was a clinical psychologist, I always brought because I don’t practice now for a variety of reasons. There’s a price to speaking. But there’s a price to remaining silent when you have something to say. So you get to pick your price. Yeah. So why did you agree to talk to me. Well, I wanted to talk to you because, you know, you’ve you’ve been a pretty big influence on my on my life. I followed you from the beat you know from the bill C 16 video. And your your biblical lectures were very, very moving to me. I mean, I, I had never thought of. I imagined even that there was a way to sort of harmonize, you know, evolution and religion. And it seemed just like a remarkable achievement to to sort of kind of find a third way out of the you know along another dimension from the conflict of, you know, is it true is it not true is it true is it not to does in sort of saying it doesn’t matter. That’s not the question. The question is, like, Why does this matter? And, and, you know, what? I don’t know the way it was like it apparently matters. The question is why it seems to matter. And it sort of reframed it in a way that I couldn’t. That I couldn’t ignore and that it because I was raised with these stories, but they didn’t really make sense in the modern paradigm that I’ve been, you know, that that I experienced as a kind of drifting away. I think that my, my experience in relating to your work is quite common. I think a lot of people had this experience listening to your work and your lectures. And that finding a way to sort of connect with myself as you know when I when I was a boy I was an altar boy, I studied the Bible you know these were things that that were important to me but I didn’t understand them. And finding a way to understand them in a new and better way was just marvelous. It was marvelous and that it would have meaning for me as an adult is something I never would have even imagined was possible. So, you know, that was very important to me and also that the importance that there is you know I don’t, I don’t know. It seems that I don’t, it almost doesn’t matter what your religious thing is. But it is important that there’s something. There’s something important about truth, the truth is important and it’s not the same as reality. And people think that reality is truth. And a lot of it is but there’s some of it that’s not. And that you, and that being able to say I don’t know whether this is something that that that I’m getting from you or that you actually said, but I thought that you might, you might be some of the kind of understood that where I was coming from about that. And I felt the sort of kinship there. And that’s why that’s why it was really important for me to go on your show. Thank you for talking to me today. Thank you for having me. My pleasure, man.