https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=AeDjHpnXeKE
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Janna. She’s been hanging around in the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis Discord for over two years I think. Yeah. And I met up with her in the Netherlands. So she was the first person I met from the online world. And today she’s here to talk about creativity and how that influenced her life. Janna, what is the definition of creativity? Hi. So I recently found a really short and simple definition that I really liked. That it’s 1 plus 1 is 3 as opposed to 1 plus 1 is 2. And there’s a lot more to it. But I think I’ll stick with that for now. Okay. And what does creativity mean to you? Well, it’s very much related to art, but also to how I have lived my life, especially in the periods that it was going well. It’s about how I could make the best of situations, new situations. And there wasn’t a lot of planning involved. It was just life bringing me and my partner somewhere. And then it’s always turned out really well because we took what we got. And well, I guess we made lemonade. We want another definition. Yeah. So the past couple of years have been quite good in a lot of ways. Lots of changes happening. Also, lots of quite difficult moments. But I think that creativity got me through. And it being related to art still is on the background. But that’s a different part of the story, I guess. So I feel like you kind of describe working on intuition. That’s really important. Yeah, I think that’s also a big part of it. Once I came up with an idea of how it was about insight, I think I didn’t realize it at the time. And later when I was watching the Breveki lecture series, it also came up and said, hey, that’s the idea that I had. It was about a little girl that is not, that’s not the original idea. That was later. It was about how there’s jigsaw puzzle pieces coming to you just falling from the sky. And you have your little puzzle that you’re building around you. And sometimes they fit, and sometimes they don’t, and you don’t know what to do with them yet. And slowly but surely they fall into place. And you get, that’s the insights, but you also you grow your puzzle and you reveal a bigger and more beautiful picture. And my idea, you could also find other jigsaw islands of other people and then connect with them. And then it opens the space for a lot more beauty and connection. And yeah, that was just one of those ideas I had, which I tried to make into something, but that part didn’t work out. The creativity was there. Sounds like there’s different levels of creativity in the thinking and in the implementation. Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s the idea. Yeah, yeah. That’s also choosing to spend the time on it, confidence that I lacked practicality of space, situation, time, that kind of stuff. So I hope that comes back in the future. But yeah. So what’s your earliest memory of creativity? I have one for that. I mean, I used to draw when I was little a lot. But one specific drawing that really stuck with me was that I made autumn trees. I was probably maybe five years old or something. But what I did was to just smash the tip of the pencil from the brush into the paper. So you got like spreads. And that those were the leaves, the falling autumn leaves. And I remember hearing from people around me like, Oh, that’s so great. And that’s such a good idea. And I was really proud of myself now. Yeah. So do you feel like having the feedback from other people around you is part of whether it’s creative or not? Or do you need it to determine about it? No, not specifically. But it’s definitely been important for me to continue drawing. And me doing that instead of going into the sciences or something, maybe put more emphasis on the creative part. Even if people don’t consider creativity to be just, well, drawing or craft or something, and not the deeper sense of it. That still always brought it to the front. Maybe also made me ask, okay, but this is not creative. I don’t feel as good about this. And then made me ask myself what creativity was, what I liked about my art. And I did not like the art of the parks, because I also often didn’t agree with people. Yeah, but it’s super ugly. And I didn’t even really do anything or it wasn’t even my idea. I did something that my art teacher wanted from me. So it made me question what that part was that I liked that I wanted to do. And that was always just whatever came in my head to draw it. And quite well, as I imagined it. So when you’re a kid, and you get this feedback, did you appropriate that as sort of an identity? Or I know this kid who can paint and wanted to live that out? I think a little bit, but I also rebelled against it. I didn’t always decide I want to become an artist because, well, you can’t make money with that. I think at some point I wanted to be a journalist. I considered studying astronomy, but I decided not to because it’s way too much reading. I was relatively smart, but in the end, I took a gap year. My art teacher always told me to go to art school and I did this. It’s an orientation year where I went to the Reedvault Academy here in Amsterdam on Sundays. And I tried it out. I was like, nah, this is not for me. But in the end, I still studied something related to creativity. So if we go back to early, being the kid, getting compliments, how does that look like? Is that a thing that you just do because it’s there? Is that a thing that you’re passionate about? I love drawing. It was just playing for me. Also, I met up with a friend. I was 11, 12 around that time and we just drew together. That was our playtime. It definitely was encouraged by people around me at the beginning. My grandma was an art teacher in primary school, so she kind of stimulated it. My father always wanted to stimulate me to pursue my passions. So it was definitely stimulated, but I just love doing it. It’s playtime and drawing pretty princesses and fairies. I’ve also written some poetry. I’ve come up with stories at the time. It was just playing for me. I think it’s still supposed to be. It’s super. So how did it go in school? Were you also there identified as an art chief? Yeah, I remember one time I made a drawing together with a friend. The teacher loved it so much, so they hung it up on the wall. When the center class, the Dutch center class, when he came to visit, he took me on his lap to tell me how good I was at drawing. Before that, maybe less because it was still relevant, but I was at the Waldorf school, so art was there in a specific sense. It was just always there. Then after that, I just got a lot of compliments from classmates. My art teacher saw a lot of potential in me and wanted me to study at the art academy. So yeah, I always heard it from people around me. It’s also made me just shy and frustrated. Don’t put all that attention on me. It’s not that’s deserved. It’s like, okay. So do you feel like, because in the Waldorf school, the environment is really flowy and also really creative. They’re really trying to get you in touch with nature and and parts of yourself. So do you feel like that set a baseline that you kept on going or is that? Well, I can’t really say because I don’t have a normal school to compare it with. I think what Waldorf did more was to learn about religions, stories for very present and they had all their types of craft. So I’ve been to some courses outside of school as well for that kind of stuff. So it just kept me busy. But for example, I remember that the painting we did that’s what’s paint that smelled like rotten eggs because it was the natural paints. And you had to make your paper really wet with wet paints and then it becomes really blurry. And that’s more about doing the repetitive meditative movements and let it go of the details, playing with the colors, I guess. So I remember it more in that sense. But if I was drawing more things that I liked, it was probably more related to the stories that we learned or in my free time when I went home, I was drawing or maybe even during class when I wasn’t listening, but maybe that came later. Yeah. So I feel like there’s a sense that it was more relating to your imagination, developing your imaginative capacity. Yeah. So yeah, so that’s primary school. Yeah. And maybe this is a good point to take a break because I hear Fulian being very sad. I think he’s still hungry. Okay. So you finish up primary school and then you transition to high school. I assume it’s focused a little bit more on the scientific aspect of the world, unless so much on the art. So how does that go for you? Well, generally I like school. So so it’s, I mean, the learning part was always interesting enough to me, mostly. I didn’t like some teachers and stuff. I like to have a specific class for art separately at school. And I continued drawing for myself at school during classes while listening. But also at home, I started playing with Photoshop and yeah, I got a digital tablet as a present from my dad, I guess. But what didn’t go too well was that I didn’t get along with my art teacher. She was the type of person to tell you what is and isn’t art. And I was also into stuff like manga and anime and still very much into fairies. And that’s not something I really liked. And that wasn’t to her taste. So that was an escalating conflict over the years. But she also always pointed out that I was really good and should continue with it. And I also still got a lot of compliments from my classmates. And that’s the one thing they knew to say about me, that I was good at art. But I guess something that was more difficult during that time was just the social life wasn’t great. I wasn’t one of the popular kids. I was the, well, weirdo that was into drawing. And I guess that’s a bit of an overview of how those years went. So do you feel like you gained social acceptance through the drawing as well as being the weirdo? No, no, it was still just something I did. I think rather the opposite that at some point, like in the later years outside of school, I got social life with outcasts. There were like stoner metalheads or generally alternative people. So I think there was probably some… Music was important to them or how they clothed all differently than others, dyeing their hair, that kind of stuff. So I think there was always some form of creativity that connected us. And some of them were also drawing, but that became something on the background. I can imagine that was also a period when I started drawing less. But on the other hand, I also picked up photography somewhere in my mid teens, which has also been quite important for me in a slightly different way than the drawing. But I think that’s made me, it helped me learn to see, to note what I pay attention to, especially when I’m looking back to pictures. So there was definitely a change in that period, but I was still drawing. I was still, at some point I did decide I want to continue with it, not with something like journalism. At least try to go for it if I’m good enough to get into a school. So I kept doing it, had my conflicts about what it even was at school with a teacher. Yeah, I think maybe it was, I already saw it as a part of me. Other people didn’t change it much in that sense at the time. Did you use it as an escapism to retreat into? Maybe. I remembered more as I said during class that I kept busy if I was bored. So I think at that time I also drew the things that I thought were cool. I guess it became a little darker as I started hanging out with alternative people. Instead of fairies it was zombies or, well, gothic girls, I don’t know. There was, there’s probably more there, but I don’t remember so well what I was making at the time. I think a lot of it was also playing with Photoshop as a tool. So the play came into that and I think I’ve never made this creative stuff digitally as I did then. So that says something. Right, so there was more an exploration than that was actually? Yeah, I got busy because it was something I did I was comfortable with and I liked to do. I guess I was searching for, well, okay, I’m doing this now, what do I do with it? So does that mean that you didn’t have an audience or an outlet or a purpose there? No, I didn’t have that. It was all for myself. Sometimes I remember making a portrait a couple of times of people and they’re like, oh, that’s fun and cool, but no more than that. So when you go hang out with these alternative kids, you effectively get a competition of social interest. I think that’s also the space where you’re developing yourself emotionally and socially. So is that competition, has it been a threat? Like did that actually take something away that you mentioned the explorative part? I think that actually came later. I think with alternative people, I don’t remember it as a competition at the time. I think it was in a way maybe also play. Sometimes it was like, oh, look at this cool thing that I can make or made, but it weren’t often showing off. Like my best friend at the time, she had a deviantart account. So she placed stuff there, but she didn’t actively show it off. And there was maybe something in me that felt like, oh, that’s different and so creative and I want to be like that. But it just changed my art to do something different than what I was doing before, I guess. But it still felt like a background thing and it became a part of my life. It still felt like a background thing and it became more and more background as more and more weed was smoked and people did less and less stuff outside of while getting together and smoking weed. Which was actually really sad, especially that one friend I saw a lot of potential in her. She also studied photography, but then she’s now still working in a bar. She wanted to become a tattoo artist and I told her that if she became one, she could make my first tattoo. That never happened. But yeah, I think probably it was a movement to get it where it started becoming less prevalent in my life at the time, at least the drawing. But that was also the period when I went to college, the film academy, and it was supposed to be very relevant there, but that’s actually when it’s really disappeared as something that I did in my pre-time. Is that also because you had to be busy with it all day during the academy? No, I think actually specifically the things that I liked were not appreciated anymore. I think the film academy sucked all the creativity, almost all of it, out of me. Of course, I was super busy with school stuff, but on the other hand, it was always way too easy. I was fighting with the teachers. I just wanted to do more. And the assignments weren’t demanding enough. I tried to put the creativity into my school work, but I failed, and I think that really discouraged me. You failed putting it in, or you failed the classes? No, I did quite well. I failed putting it in. It was way too easy for me. Basically, you show up, you do whatever you’re told to do, and then it’s good enough. Not for the classmates, but I didn’t like what my classmates were making either. I think I wanted to start being productive, to find that audience, I guess, with my work. I did what was asked of me at school, but I was also struggling with the technical aspect. As I said, it was too easy, like what we had to achieve, but I was still struggling, and I wanted to learn to do it well, and that wasn’t really encouraged. You had to do it on your own, but that was very difficult, and I wanted help, and then I didn’t get it. It was really discouraging, that period. Did they expect you to conform? Is that a general idea there? Yeah. Or was their attitude more of an exploration? Like, oh, you just get a taste of this, and you get a taste of that, and then later on you’ll figure it out. I think there was a bit of both. Like, yeah, maybe in the attempting to be in the spirit of creativity, anything was okay, what you did. Anything was good, and they wanted you to learn from making mistakes with the software, which doesn’t work if you have limited time and assignments to make. But then what was accepted as good came from the other departments, because it was, like the film academy is structured that you have directors and screenplay writers and production and sound designers, and then you team together to make film crew, and then we, as a class, were kind of a visual effects studio doing the visual effects work for the rest of the, for the movies that the directors and screen writers came up with. There was definitely a certain idea about what a good movie was, it wasn’t the big blockbusters with lots of visual effects in them. They also always said that, yeah, visual effects doesn’t need to be about robots and aliens and dragons, and I was just wondering, well, why can’t we make a good movie with robots and aliens and dragons? Why can’t we combine the fantasy, the more than normal daily life with a good story? The stories there were very self-centered, I’d say. They felt like therapy for the directors, very personal life stories, and there was very little space for more than that. Yeah, so it’s interesting, because I feel like there’s this team popping up for me, because you’re talking about, well, like, how do you effectively teach people to grow in the spirit of creativity? And then you mentioned this art as therapy kind of thing, which is, in some sense, well, in some sense, the therapy part is necessary for growth, but there’s some danger there in the growing aspect. So if you would have to teach that to yourself back then, what changes would you make? Well, at least I would be more facilitating in the technical aspects of what we were doing, because if you’re only struggling with that, there’s no space for the creativity anymore. And I know that’s a difficult bit, because there were also people who just asked every single thing if they don’t know the button, and they didn’t know to find it out themselves on Google, which is also, yeah, you have to learn that as well. There’s lots of information out there, but the support was very lacking. I think a big problem was, we tried to do a project together with the class in the last year, and we were struggling so much with coming up with anything to do, because everyone has different tastes, and there was no facilitator in the whole thing. So it took us months to even come up with something, and in the end it was just like a last-minute idea that someone had, and I wasn’t too happy about it, so I was a bit more ambitious. But that’s, yeah. That sounds like there’s this element where everybody’s coming together, and there’s too many creative people. Yeah, in a sense, yeah. These too many people want to do something with our ideas, or are very particular about what’s good, and what’s not for themselves. They all wanted to make science fiction movies, and then there was someone in there who wanted to make basically Disney movies. That sounds like an issue that we have on the Discord, right, where there’s all these people who think things should be in a certain way, and then you can never get together. So do you feel like that’s a problem that has been persistent throughout your career and in the creative world? I think because my work is not exactly creative, it’s problem solving, which can also be really fun, but you just get your assignment from your leads, and basically you do what you’re told. So I was lacking the creativity at work, but I’ve always wondered how to get a film crew together where everyone is able to do their thing, but also be part of something bigger, like to be part of the group, but also be able to do their thing. And I’ve had ideas about that. It was just me thinking about it. It never became relevant in real life, and I was struggling since school and after school. I was struggling to prove myself to be able to even be part of something, to find those people that’s at least slightly aligned with me and what they like and what they want to do, and so we can start exploring together. That never happened. Not with our stuff. Well, in a way it did, but I’m not making something with them at the moment. That comes later. So you’re talking about the technology, effectively being a limiting factor in expressing your creativity, and then you ended up working with that in some profound sense. So do you have something to say about that relationship and maybe how to approach that? Well, I think before that, I was, the stuff I used to apply with for the film academy, it was very rudimentary because my tools were very limited. I didn’t have a good computer at home, but I did realize at some point in my life, like, oh hey, I was actually a lot more creative there with more limited tools. That was probably also because I wasn’t struggling as much with the tools and there wasn’t the pressure that I need to be able to do it to get work. I didn’t, I didn’t, I was still showing what I like to do rather than, and the playing with the tools rather than trying to prove myself for the professional world. Yeah, very naive in a sense, but it got me in the film academy. So, so do you feel like, in some sense, they gave you too much freedom in the school and that constraint of working is actually a thing that is important for the process? Yeah, I think that’s right. Also for the teamwork, but also for the projects, the guidance wasn’t there. You just, here is your assignment, do whatever, and the feedback was not what we needed, not helpful. And there was no, there wasn’t, there wasn’t a lot of judgment on the projects. The most judgment that we got from the teachers was, I don’t know, that you were taking too long for a certain aspect or that you should have tried that with a different method, something like that. Yeah. So yeah, like where does that lead to? Finish up? So it was quite bad for my creativity at the time and also social life was still not great. I didn’t, I was again, not a popular kid in school. People said I was very negative. I didn’t get invited to parties a lot, partially because I didn’t live in Amsterdam. It was inconvenient. Yeah, that whole thing didn’t work out. But I met my partner, which I’m very, very, very lucky with. We’re still together eight years later. That worked out at least. And after graduating, after my graduating, we started traveling forward to different countries and at least the companies turned out to be quite a good place for me, where I was surrounded by more motivated people who were also into visual effects instead of my classmates who mostly stayed in the Netherlands or actually went to do something else. They didn’t just didn’t have the ambitions or the rest of the school who were like had a completely different taste into the more art-healthy movie scene. So I found my people at the time and it was great. And I gained back my confidence. I learned that people can actually like me. Quite a likable person, which was a very necessary development for me. My partner all the way supporting me and that and sticking with me in difficult times and the doubts and the yeah. Also wondering what I want to do with my life and stuff. And at some point it’s like slowly started getting back and I had old ideas that I started actually developing in practice, sticking with it with a difficult work part instead of just coming up with an idea. And I started building a website and a portfolio. And then I actually wanted to go back to studying after COVID. Before COVID, we moved to Canada and we decided we’re going to stay here for a couple of years. We have some work security here so we can start building a life. And then COVID happens and none of that happens. And we also realized, nah, this is not the life we want. Just going to work, drinking beers after work and just doing this for many more years at this stage of our lives. We didn’t want to do that. So I decided I wanted to go back to studying for animation directing. Coming up with ideas and stories and portraying them visually was I guess what I wanted to do for a long time. So, hold on a second. You’re making a shift from doing the creation yourself to directing? I think that’s very similar to me. It was just bigger things, not just a drawing but multiple drawings. I went to the film academy because I loved animated movies and I at this stage was and at this time I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do. I liked everything we did at school. I wanted to be part of those movies and I understood that you can’t be the director right away. But those were not the movies we were making at all. And I didn’t have a say in that. I just had to work on movies that I didn’t believe in. And then you just become a number, a tool for someone else. That was also my work in the end. The social life was what made it worthwhile. So, I’m still interested in this shift to going to this directive role. So, it seems like you’re trying to get more control over what you’re doing yourself? Yeah. If no one else is going to make the good movies, well, I have ideas that I’m very proud of. So, I want to do it. There was a study actually that I did and I was very interested in it. There was a study I found for it that made sense. It was specifically to learn animation directing, but it was like a later in life thing. If you’ve already done something else but want to switch to animation directing, then that was the way. I was definitely insecure about the actually directing part. The ideas were okay, but I was like, yeah, I’ll learn that at the school. That’s what I’m going for, right? But yeah, it was about getting more control and being able to realize the things I had in my head. Because that did shift to movie making or animation. Because that did shift to movie making or animation either. And that’s not something you can do on your own. So, yeah, maybe you want to say a little bit about the cooperation aspect and how creativity is involved in the cooperating. Well, at the film academy, I always heard I was really bad at cooperating because I didn’t agree with everything. I met some friends through Facebook who is kind of an animation director, but she mostly works as an animator. She has her own project. And we’ve talked together a lot. I think what came out of it is that Lord of the Rings was my big example why I went to do the visual effects study at the film academy. Oh, that was the amazing movie. And I saw the appendices that were part of the extended edition. And you saw everyone doing this amazing creative little thing to add to this bigger whole. And it became a big, beautiful thing. And I wanted to be part of that. I don’t think I necessarily wanted to come up with my ideas. If I get to make Lord of the Rings, that’s an amazing idea. I would love to be part of that and help it come to life. So I think that people can work together if they believe in something higher than themselves. The project is more important than the individuals, but everyone is behind the project and really believes in it. And there will always be something to give up of yourself to be part of that. But yeah, there’s also, I think a couple of directors who will always have their same crew that they work with. And I think that they may be met at film school or animation school. And I think that somehow they found each other, but they also had the chance to grow together, which doesn’t happen anymore as much because you just hire a bunch of people or the production studio hires a bunch of people. And especially on the lower crew members like me, you’re just a number, a tool to achieve something. You’re not part of it really. And those were things that were missing. Believing in the project, believing in that and being a real part of it and not just a tool. So you mentioned that these constraints that you were having through time and through tension in your job also helped, right? So these constraints that you’re participating in aren’t necessarily just a sacrifice. They can also be beneficial in a way. Is that a thing that you’ve come to appreciate more? Yeah, I think also later when I did start building my portfolio, I wasn’t as concerned about the final product. I was more free to just show what I could show, like the part of me that I could show through the means that I had. So that’s when I started. For example, if I have a story idea that I don’t need to write the whole screenplay for it before I even start, but I just start making some stills that I imagine or develop one scene of the thing. Or I learn a new software that will make it very easy for me to animate something, even though it’s not exactly what I want. So I started being more creative again at that point. I gained my confidence back and then I was able to find new ways to let my ideas out again. Before that, I was very stagnant. I didn’t draw for or barely drew for a lot of years, except a couple of insightful moments of inspiration that something came out, but that wasn’t sustainable. And there were a lot of periods where I didn’t do anything. So when you say confidence, is that where you’re just moving without knowing where you’re going? You mean if… Well, you can just say what you feel with it. Yeah. Well, that’s whatever is inside you is worth it. Worth letting out, spending time and attention on. So when you say worth it, how would you decide before how something was worth it? Before that, there was a lot less boundary between letting it out and coming up with the idea and letting it out, because I was comfortable with the tools, as I said. After that, what I learned at school and the animation bit takes a lot more time, so the boundary, the dremel became a lot bigger. And I think a big part of that was also chopping it up in smaller bits. But I think for a long time I was trying to do what would make me seen. So the popular Instagram accounts were doing like the drawing studies and sharing everything that you do. And it was a certain thing that people like, and I tried to do that, I tried to do that, but I don’t know what I’m doing. It doesn’t look good. I don’t really like it. It feels like a waste of time. The social media wasn’t exactly motivating. So yeah, I tried to do it that way to just gain an online following, but that didn’t work out. And I think the confidence was also to go back to what I wanted to do and finding out what that was. So it helped me a lot to stick with the story ideas that I had because those were, I guess, something I believed in. And then to stick little bits onto that. So make a drawing, write something, do a storyboard as part of that bigger thing that I did believe in. I like that you brought up belief because I was like, in some sense, you were using the world as an authority. Oh, these are the rules. And then if I play within the rules, then I can do something right. And now you have your internal rules, but that’s not even correct. Because you believe in something, right? And the thing that you believe in is the thing that judges what you’re doing. And then the Instagram social media stuff wasn’t the right thing to believe in. It was definitely not returning the gifts of that. Well, do you even think that you can? Because how do you know, right? You’re just having this idea of what they want to see or what they really know. Yeah, I think it’s also something that develops. You start doing something, you get a little bit of luck and start getting followers and that just escalates. But it’s becoming harder and harder because more and more people are trying to become the saints of Instagram. And you can’t have a million of those. So you did feel like when you were doing that, there was this interactive nature where you were having feedback and you used that to decide what to do next? It was supposed to be there, but I didn’t have followers. Definitely not once that reacted. That was the ideal that never manifested. So, yeah, you were at the pre-COVID. So I think when COVID hits. Yeah. So at the time, before that, we were traveling for a couple of months. But I wasn’t as secure about having a job at the time, so that was kind of important. Because in Europe, it’s not easy to have a steady job in our fields. That’s why we wanted to go to Canada, because that’s where you can have a steady job for a longer period of time. And for a while, I was just trying to get in there, trying to get in there, finally got in. And yeah, we moved. I found out I was actually quite good at what I did. Yeah, I guess I was a little bit of a mess. Yeah, I was the least experienced of my team, but I wasn’t doing worse than the rest. That’s when it got boring for me. I didn’t like the projects we were working on. And especially when we started working from home, it was like, yeah, I’m earning money, but my mind was elsewhere. And that’s when Discord started as well. And I was just thinking of, okay, what else? What’s next? What can I do to get out of this? Started building my portfolio more seriously, as I said, which was, well, I constrained myself to some old ideas that I also didn’t really believe in. And I was like, yeah, I’m going to do this. Old ideas that I also didn’t really believe in anymore. I started seeing flaws in them, but I just wanted to get that portfolio done. So I guess that was the belief at the moment. Did you also feel like you were, in some sense, closing up the past or something that was like a therapeutic thing as well? Maybe, yeah, it was definitely something I struggled with. So just figuring out what helped me get the work done and what I wanted to do and sticking with it and not doing it for anyone else as much as before. That was something that was developing at the time. And I think it’s still a challenge. It’s still, I’m still moving towards doing, making things for what I believe in. It’s still in development, but that will come later. But it was definitely a period where that started manifesting. So, I know you’re starting a second trajectory with like figuring out what you want effectively or in life. Is that kind of the way that you can show? Well, at the moment, I don’t feel like there’s a lot of space for one thing. Because someone else wants almost everything. But I’m okay with it because I believe that it will come when it’s time for it again. I don’t have an urgency anymore. Back down. Oh, yeah, wait, what was the question again? Well, like you started going on the Discord, right? Like there’s this new move that you’re making or at least seems like a new move where you’re trying to figure something out. So, I’m trying to get at what did you want to figure out? Okay, so how the Discord started was that during the couple of months that we were looking for work and trying to move to Canada, I watched the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series and it was a lot of, right, yeah, that’s what I was thinking and that’s what I was trying to tell people in all the discussions that I had. And there was just a lot of recognition. And I was like, oh, I’m not crazy. I’m not weird. There’s actually people who agree with me on a lot of these things. And then I didn’t think to like that there was going to be a Discord about it, but then the Discord came up and I joined it. Can you describe the recognition that you felt? Like what are the subjects? About, for example, a big one that I recognized was the type of personality, where you’re seeking problems to solve. I forgot what it’s called. Problem maker? Yeah, but yeah, that was something I was doing. I was searching for problems kind of and then solving them. And that was what helped me grow and move forward and evolve in a lot of ways. Like I wasn’t avoiding the difficult stuff. And at the Film Academy, for example, that made me very unpopular that I was asking questions and not taking things for granted and not being okay with whatever was there. Always wanting more than that. And Verveki described it as a certain type of personality. So it was like, oh, he actually likes that kind of person. So yeah, it had a lot to do with the growth and development and wisdom. That it was worth putting in the effort, doing the difficult thing. It wasn’t all about just enjoying yourself and doing whatever you want. What other people always told me. So that seems to be connecting back to the confidence that you were talking about. Yeah, I think that was an important part of it. Also talking with other people in Discord. I think that’s definitely guided me along the way back onto a certain path. So if you look back on these things, can you maybe summarize the lessons that you needed to learn from that? From Discord, you mean? Yeah, and the meeting crisis. Like, okay, further back. Well, it’s more so like you’re opening up this new space in some sense, right? And you’re looking for answers there. And I’m trying to see how these answers relate back to what you’re struggling with. Why do you open this door? What does it bring to you? I think a difficult time started during my middle school. That was just not a lot of friends. And me not being super enthusiastic about life and just wondering, okay, why are we doing everything? But I also read back my diary entries. But I guess that’s how it is. And I’ll find out later or something like that. That was always in there. So yeah, I was just getting my darkness out at the time. I think in that, in a lot of way, disagreeableness. I just didn’t want to just go along with things because that worked. That made me happy. I wanted to be authentic. I think in that, I found my alternative friends at the time. But then I stuck with my ambition and went to the Film Academy. Struggled with not being facilitated in that, having to do it myself in a way. To stick with what I want to do instead of waiting for other people to let me do it. But then I was still not very popular. So that’s when I had to just heal that part, make good relationships. But also deal with moving and losing those relationships again. But luckily with the one relationship that stuck with me. And yeah, I mean, my attachment wasn’t great, apparently. And I was just anxious when people didn’t reply. And I had to just go through all that and not feel abandoned when people didn’t always reply. Didn’t always reply when I wanted attention. And with time, that definitely went better with a lot of great people that did help me through it. Also by saying no. But then also coming back. And let me think. So it was going well for a period. But then I also started, when it went well, I started feeling, oh, I want more than this. I don’t want to just have a social life with beers after work. And yeah, during COVID, I guess I focused on going back to studying and doing the portfolio thing. But a lot of transformations that came after were building up in that period, I guess. I was still holding on to an idea that I had before that. And when it didn’t work out, I had to figure out where I was at and what it all meant. So you’re coming at this point and you’re basically deciding it’s not enough. And I’ve been writing down words like boring and authenticity. So there’s a sense there where, where I’m not going to be able to do that. There’s a sense there where you’re looking for something. And you’re looking to have a specific fit to it, like a right relationship. And so when you come at this point, you effectively say, well, this is not enough. There’s many answers that you can take. Well, I’m going to do something completely else. There’s many paths you can take. But you chose to basically take the intellectual route. So I’m trying to get a taste of… Yeah, was that just random or did you actually find something there? With the Biscuit? Yeah. I think that was always something that was also part of me. I mean, I liked the sciences at school. As I said, I was considering to study astronomy. I liked learning. Like at the end of middle school, we had to write a scientific paper, kind of, a research paper, I don’t know, as much as it can be scientific. Middle school. But I wrote mine about art and science. I also saw how that came together really well in what I ended up studying eventually, because the computer mathematics and programming and physics is also an important part of my job. But then also it’s visual and in a way artistic. So I saw that as an important thing in my life for a long time. And I guess in both it’s a pace to be creative. It’s important and necessary to be creative, I guess. So no, that was always also something I was interested in, the geeky stuff. And yeah, but it was, I guess, a new form of it. I didn’t know that I could find something like that in things like religion and storytelling. That was actually also intellectual in that sense. I was always thinking a lot. My mother used to tell me when I was really young that I should stop philosophizing. That’s something I didn’t stop doing. I talk a lot out loud to my boyfriend to try to process stuff. So yeah, that was always part of it. I just found a place where it was welcome, I guess. Before that, people weren’t a big fan of that. So you develop insight into a new type of relationship to stories there then? Like with the archetypes? Yeah, I think I didn’t watch a lot of Peterson before Verreky, but what I remember about his talks was, it makes sense that I like some stories so much, and that stories also helped me gain a lot of insights. Movies and books that I read. And then, for example, with Dune, the first time I read it, I was like, ah, it’s kind of nice, but I didn’t get it, really. I didn’t click. And then later we started learning about Stoicism together with my partner. And I started to, like, I remembered something about Dune and I read back the quotes on Goodreads, and I was like, oh, now I got a lot more about it. And that just kept happening from that point on. The other stories and things that I had collected during my life started clicking together, and I started seeing the patterns, I guess. Also, I think that’s why Perceau makes a lot of sense to me, like that way of seeing things made sense. And I also remember that I’ve had specific moments when I struggled with people, and I saw a friendship as a certain story, how it went, and then it didn’t go as I planned. And I was like, oh, but apparently the story is different. And I was actually writing it out as a story at the time. Back when I didn’t understand as much yet, I had the thoughts, so basically stories are my religion. So there’s this sense that I feel like there’s these stories and these patterns that you’re recognizing and that is also associated with the rise in your confidence in some way, right? Like now. Yeah, I think before that, a lot of people were saying basically that stories are arbitrary, stories don’t have meaning. That’s not how stories are supposed to be. Basically, that stories are arbitrary, stories don’t have meaning. That’s not how stories go. Like even with COVID, I thought like, oh, this is a call to adventure, and now is the time for the world to change and for people to realize that they can’t live on Netflix. And yeah, like I started seeing how, yes, stories are very relevant and important and real and true. And I was very happy to get some affirmation in that. And then it was, I guess the question was how to do something with it. Yeah. Yeah, so where does that take you? Like, you know, talking about these things with people, you have a place where you can find. Well, I think at that point, there’s not a lot of planning happening anymore. So I made my portfolio for the film, for the other film academy, basically for the animation directing. And I think I might have been accepted. But then, well, I found out I was pregnant. And when I had my interview for the school, it turned out I had applied to the wrong study. And yeah, it wasn’t going to work out anyway. They said, oh, let’s try again next year. Yeah, no. And when I found out I was pregnant, actually, overnight, I decided this is what we were going for. Before that, abortion was always an option. That was my first thought. Can I get an abortion without health care in Canada? Because we never signed up for it. But overnight, it was already decided not this is what we’re doing. We were going to get an abortion. And we were going to get an abortion. And I was like, oh, I’m not going to get an abortion. I’m going to get an abortion. And I was like, oh, I’m not going to get an abortion. And we decided not this is what we’re doing. We did know we want children, just maybe later when I figure my life out. And but I figured I don’t have a good reason not to have a child right now. It would all be selfish. And yeah, we decided that’s the next thing in our lives, I guess. We decided to quit our jobs and go back to the Netherlands to be with family and friends around us. We didn’t like Canada as much anymore anyway. Like we never built a home there. We met a few people, but not many in different stages in their lives as well. So it was just it all made sense from that point. Just have the baby, see how that goes, be home for a while, and then we’ll see what’s next. I kind of feel like you’re underselling it because there was I remember that time when there was a big anxiety and then overnight that just flipped. Yeah, it was like a month before it happened. I was crying about just being insecure about the future and if it was the right thing to do. And I might have even been thinking about, yeah, I should have children soon. But if I go study now and then I have to start a career, then it will take a couple of years. And that’s maybe way too long. And then a month later, the problem was solved for me. And of course, it was scary when I realized what was happening. But that went away really quickly. Yeah, even just letting go of studying wasn’t very difficult. But that was actually also the time when I found the Talking Art and Spirit group that Sherry Harkins started. And I started connecting with people over arts and a lot of ideas that I had around that topic. So that’s also helped, I think, to have the faith, I guess, that it will work out as it’s supposed to. I’ll find a way to let out my creativity, no matter what the situation. And I don’t need to go back to study and become an animation director to do that. So this sounds like another situation where the constraining of the world by having a baby and having to take care of it is actually providing something that you need, but you didn’t realize in the moment that you needed that. Yeah, but I guess that’s the struggle of our age, right? Too many options. Yes, it is. So yeah, I was in the middle of that. And definitely since then, I learned a lot about religion and tradition. Before that, I mean, with all the traveling and exploring and everything new, that was who I thought myself to be. And I’m still constantly changing, I feel. But now I’m integrating the past a lot more and seeing very clearly the value of tradition and things that we’ve lost. And yeah, that was, I guess, something that I learned a lot from this work. And who would have thought that I would be so interested in Christianity? When I was a weed smoking metalhead. So what are you looking for in this traditional religious world? Like, what’s interesting? Well, there’s a lot of truth to the stories that I’ve found. So I guess I also believe there’s a lot more to find in there. I still have the idea to go to church and see what’s there is to find there. And maybe it’s also in a sense community that I’m looking for. On the ground, real life community. You think that tradition and religion is an important aspect of the on the ground community? Maybe I don’t have a clear opinion on that, but you need something to hold on to, to keep you grounded. And at least religion and tradition is the tried and proven. It is the ground. And I see that a lot in people around me who are still like, they can do anything and everything and all of the time. And because of that, they’re just doing the same old thing all over again, unconsciously. Not really opening up. And that’s also why it’s difficult to connect with them anymore, I guess. Like, friends, my oldest friends, the intentions, I guess, are still there. But we’re both struggling to find a connection now that I’m letting go of all partying and being free to do everything I want. And they don’t know what to do with the constraints of a baby. So, but that’s that’s part of life. Now. I have to see where that goes. So. I’m trying to figure out how this opening up aspect, because the way I’ve been thinking about opening up is, is what it requires intimacy, right? And again, right? Intimacy is requiring the shared grounding. And. Requiring the shared grounding. And so, so do you do you think that that that is that is really there, right? Like, is it this idea that because because they don’t have a grounding or they don’t have a shared grounding that that they can’t open up or do you feel like there’s a different reason? Yeah, maybe I think. I think there’s also struggles with confidence happening there. And in different ways, and I won’t go into that. It’s too personal, but. I think it’s. That now. Whatever comes at me, whatever opportunity I get. I feel like I will do my best to make the most out of it. And I think it it vast needs worm and a a variety of opportunities. Do something, somehow. do my best to make the most out of it. Like now living in my town where I grew up in the Netherlands, it’s not the most exciting place and I was struggling with that as well for a little while. There’s always like going into the darkness for a bit but I’m starting to meet people, I’m starting to find a lot of great things to do and I don’t well maybe a little bit. It’s still nice to have my partner with it but I don’t need a lot of affirmation that I’m doing well and I’m free to explore the possibilities around me with whatever I get. And I feel like friends don’t believe in that as much. They still do what they know to work. I’m struggling to say. There’s an element of anxiety that I’m feeling there. In me? No, in them, right? Like this thing where accepting what is, what’s coming at you is not. Yeah, for example, a female friend, they also notice in her that just the idea of me getting a child, like her brother and sister also have babies now and it’s like oh that’s fun and then I got pregnant and it’s like oh now it’s coming very close. And my friends also have a lot of hobbies which yeah you have to let go of for a while with the baby so yeah. The thing they like to do, the thing they know how to do they have to let go of for sure, at least for a while. So yeah, now you’re a mom and now you have to be creative in a whole new way. Yeah and I’m really liking it. I’ve definitely had difficult periods. He’s not an easy baby. He’s very temperamental, demanding. And yeah, so it’s been also a process of letting go more and more of my free time for that. Letting go more and more of things I wanted to do in the meantime while he was sleeping. But I’m also learning more and more to love it and seeing how things are going better now. Like a lot of people, they are kind of happy to go back to work after a couple of months with babies here and I knew from the start I want to be with him at least for the first year and after that I’ll see if I go back to work which is going to be longer. So I’m going to stay at home mom for quite a lot longer and who would have thought when I was a metalhead. But I’m liking to make a home here to do stuff with him next to me. Like yeah, I can go to a concert probably. Like even maybe with headphones I could do that. But I don’t want to do anything that I used to do so I’m learning what can I do with him next to me. At least for a couple of years until he starts going to school. It’s going better and better and I’m growing into it more and more. And relating to a small person is also really different than relating to a program on the computer. He doesn’t talk. I can’t have intellectual conversations with him. Well I don’t think that will get resolved when he starts talking. Maybe in the future. He can challenge me. Yeah, no definitely. I mean I still get to do my talking with my partner. Like if I have some time to listen to a video now and then and then I’m like oh I heard this. I can tell that to him. I have some family struggles, in-law struggles that are on my mind. So I keep thinking of that but I also know that’s just something I need to let go. Because that’s not something that I can do much with or about. Yeah, it’s still in progress I guess. A lot of letting go but I feel good about it mostly. Do you feel that you can creatively express yourself there as well? Well I feel good about all the moments when I come up with oh but I can do this differently. Also a lot of the because he’s not an easy baby and getting all the standard advice about how to treat babies and I’m figuring out that’s not how it works in practice. That’s not how it works at all. And just learning about how babies work through practice and how all the standard advice is not very good, very wrong in a lot of places. Just being on that journey is very feels very fulfilling to me and also gives me confidence finding out that the choices that I’m making that I’m really behind them. Yeah, it’s not a bad thing because I know for a lot of people it’s very difficult and they need to continue working to support themselves and just everyone all the moms still do their best in their situation but I’m very glad that I can make the choice to stay at home to be with him, to rock him however long he needs it to go to sleep because he needs me at this point. And he would be okay if I did things differently but I’m happy to make the choice to sacrifice my time and efforts for the best of him. It feels very right. Sometimes still difficult and sometimes like, oh I just go to sleep already but that’s part of it. So yeah, so in some sense I feel like the word sacrifice is really appropriate there and it looms a little bit behind the whole journey right, like there’s this sense of like okay I need to sacrifice certain things and then the creativity can flourish. And you seem to have been more acceptance of that fact of the sacrifice and maybe instead of seeing it as a threat, as a negative, somewhat starting to embrace that aspect. Yeah, I don’t know if I can add much to it what you said. Well that means I’m right, I’ll take it. So yeah, so now you’re there, you’re in this new situation, you’re still looking around for how to live your life, how to inform your social relationships. So I think we’re kind of at the present or is there something you still want to add? I have a thought about the sacrifice. Yeah, I think I just wanted to say it out loud that in all the choices that we have and wanting to do everything, yeah of course you end up doing not much, but yeah it’s the through the sacrifice you can focus on one thing and find the depth of it. Yeah and how that will, well it will work out in parenting in any case, but how that will work out in my art stuff that I don’t know yet. And yeah I do struggle at this point to imagine the future because I’ve been letting go and sacrificing so much so yeah I’m maybe a little reluctant to plan too strictly far ahead. Well we can start with the easy part, right? You’re gonna be a mom, so that is one thing that’s certain. So what are your ideal mommy qualities in five years? Well I’m quite confident that I will not be a single mom, so that’s something I’m very proud of. I don’t know yet. We do want more children, so that will take a couple more years of staying at home. And the time when they all go to school and I have some free time will be a couple, well maybe later than five years. Well I want to not try to control an idea about parenting that’s been kind of coming up in parenting circles. I think it’s called aware parenting, but maybe I’m confusing it. There’s an idea to not punish or reward them so they don’t get associations that sweet food is a reward and that kind of stuff. I mean of course later in life that’s different, but I want to be as guiding and like shifting attention rather than… Well we got magically joined by a little one there. Hello. So we’ve talked about being involved in school and being involved in the creative aspect of children. So is that a thing that you’re still looking to do? Not specifically with him. I don’t want to force him to go into like drawing and stuff. I want to guide him to follow his interests and expose him to things. I find I guess there’s some way of being creative. I think that’s the way of being creative. I mean it would be fun if he starts drawing as well, but I don’t know. I’d be happy making cookies or building towers or whatever. I feel like I would enjoy very much to guide him with his interests, whatever that may be. And then I’ll probably learn a lot as a child. I’ll probably learn a lot as well about how not to stifle his creativity, his natural eagerness to learn and grow and develop. Like just now he was angry that he couldn’t climb over the fence. So yeah, he’s definitely super eager to learn and it’s super lovely to see that. But he’ll need guidance and he’ll need a little bit, but not too much protection. So he goes through it safely, but also in dependence. And yeah, I think a part of me also thought, well, what if I don’t become a famous director? That’s fine. I can raise a child well to at least take with him the values that I’ve learned, the values that I’ve learned, the growth that I’ve gone through in my life compared to my parents and grandparents. Take the best of that and give that to him and then he can do whatever he wants with it. Keep the grounding, I guess, and give him that. And I do want to keep making the sacrifices that are necessary to help with that. But also at some point I will have to let go, let him into the world. And I’m wondering what that will look like and how I’ll take back my life as well at some point. So, yeah, you’re trying to facilitate him. So yeah, like now we get into this fuzzy space because it’s really dependent on him what it will look like, right? But let’s just say that you’ll be able to do that, right? What does a day of being a mom look like in five years time? Yeah, I think it’s a lot of work. I’m not a very professional person. Probably very different from now. There will probably be brothers and or sisters. So I can’t even imagine, I can’t even begin to imagine that. There will probably be brothers and or sisters. So I can’t even imagine, I can’t even begin to imagine what that looks like with multiple children. But maybe I’m carrying one along with me on a in a sling, bringing one to school. And then taking the other one to play. Maybe later by that time. He’s eating the paper. He’s eating the paper. More paper. Okay, what can I give him to play with? This is not. This is less edible. Here. So I think in five years I’ll still be quite busy as a mom. We’re also, we have a small house at the moment. But we have a small house at the moment. But we’ll probably be, well, staying together in a bedroom with all of us and that will be very cozy. But that’s not very relevant to your question. I think in the next couple of years we’re wondering if we’re going to stay here or stay in the house. I think in the next couple of years we’re wondering if we’re going to stay here or go somewhere else when they start school. I think there’s a very big chance that we do stay here. And then, yeah, I hope we will have a nice home. A home where the home that stimulates creativity and is a proper grounding and makes them feel safe and well in place. And I do hope we also have a nice social life to share with them. We give a good example on how to interact with other people as well. Yeah, so I’m trying to look for something concrete, right? So what do you think this social life should provide? Like is this, like how do you see that? Is this monthly events where you have this party, right, or whatever, where the children have this place to play? Or like how are you looking at that? Is this like a church where you’re just coming every week or maybe twice a week? I guess that’s something I’m trying to figure out at the moment. I’m meeting some moms relatively regularly, almost weekly. And I think now that school started it will be a bit more structured than during the summer. And it’s at least nice to be together with people who understand your situation and to be with adults and to get out of the house with Billion. That’s just my main priority at the moment. But I guess I’m also looking for ways to be part of that, to participate in it more than just to be part of it. I’m also looking for ways to be part of that, to participate in it more than just getting together. I looked at the local cultures center, like they have art courses there. I’m curious if I can participate in that and when that will be possible. I’m also thinking about church, but again, I have no idea what to expect from church. So, yeah, that’s what I’m figuring out at the moment. So I can’t answer more concretely. I also imagined before that we would still be having parties with our friends and he would just hang out with us. And we’re probably going to try that as well. See how that goes. But I don’t know. I don’t know if it will work. I don’t know if maybe friends will catch up and also get children and come into the same world as I am living in at the moment. Yeah. So let’s assume that you miraculously managed to get one or two days to yourself in five years and spend those to do something creative. What are you working on? Well, I did during the pregnancy, I started making some stuff for myself. I think the art and spirit group helps a lot. And figuring out what felt meaningful to me and I’m getting back into exploration. Yeah, I’m getting back into exploration through arts and what that feels like and looks like, where the result is also a lot less important in a way. So I’m not as held back by my limited skills. And I don’t know, maybe maybe I write a children’s book or illustrates it or maybe it becomes a comic or maybe I just make paintings or drawings. Probably generally as part of a story, there will always be a story involved. And I think religion, Christianity, that offers a lot of inspiration in that, but not exclusively. Yeah. All right, I’m figuring that out. I don’t know yet. Hopefully I find a way to make money off it. But for now, that’s not an issue. And I can also help my partner with a project that he’s working on. So he can divide the labors a little bit there. And so you get some more time with his son as well. The rest of the children. And yeah, that’s as much as I know now, I think, or I can say. You want to add something there or you feel like that’s kind of complete? You want me to add something there? No, I don’t want anything. I mostly hope I will have time also to just actually spend time doing it and getting better because I haven’t done that a lot. What I found is how to be able to spend the time on it through something higher that I believe in. And then, like, I can, for example, the birth card for Fidion that I made. And I was thinking about what his birth meant, what our parenthood meant, and try to portray that symbolically. And spend a lot of time looking for the right colors, the right composition, and just painting it over and over and over again. That’s something that I couldn’t do before. I spent weeks on that one little tiny card thing. And I really enjoyed being able to do that again. So I’m doing more of that, exploring, learning, growing through, creating, translating it into something, well, hopefully beautiful. Is that a thing that’s on that list? Yeah, that’s right. That’s an idea that I also had at some point. I see most people are seeing Instagram and digital art as their example of achieving success in art and ideal in what that looks like. And I have found that it’s kind of a dead end. It doesn’t offer what it promises. And if I can find a way to help people get back in touch with this right relationship to art, to exploring, to connect it, start having insights and connecting things in their lives. Yeah, if I can help people get that going, that would be nice. So I had the idea for a course, to start a course to do that with people. But that will have to grow organically, somehow. Maybe not in five years. Maybe revisit that in five years. Who knows? So yeah, sounds like we’re getting to the end. Do you have a takeaway from this conversation? Yeah, I’m kind of realizing, isn’t this a lot like the self-offering structure? There’s a similarity. We got it, but we never took the time to do it. We wanted to do it together with family, but I kind of did it now, a little bit. I guess it’s good to affirm to get some affirmation in what I’ve been going through, because there’s always a voice in the back of my head wondering if that’s what Manuel wanted to say. And then I’m not sure. Who says I’m sure? At some point you at least say something and then that’s certain. So it’s good to have a little bit more certainty in that voice. And well, in general, it’s been going well for a bit now. And I’m going in the right direction. And I can keep going like this for now. In five years, that’s revised. So I guess I want to push you a little bit here. So how do you know the direction is right? I guess through religion, I have learned about certain ideals, a certain way to understand God, I guess. And it seems as if I’m going more in that direction. Things that seemed OK to me in the past, I see now. Yeah, sure. I still think it’s not bad if those are tribes. But yeah, they won’t lead you too much good. It’s just the mistakes that sometimes need making. But through that, I’ve also filtered out a lot of the things that seem to work on the long term. And I guess I’m more willing to make the sacrifice for those things to not try out all the mistakes before I get to the right thing. Yeah. That’s a good answer. Yeah, so thank you, Jana, for your participation. I would like to invite everybody who’s watching to give Jana some feedback in the comments section of your takeaway. Oh no. Judgment. There you get your Instagram feedback. I kind of follow you. Not anymore. I don’t have Instagram anymore. Just got rid of that. Stop making that mistake. Well, we’ll put whatever social media you want in there. Not much at the moment. This is one of my first online participations in a long time. But I have a website, but it’s old as well. And I don’t believe in half of the things that are on there anymore. But that is a testimony to your change. So yeah, thanks everybody for watching. And I hope to see you next time on Unfolding the Soul. Bye.