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And it just kills me that on the one hand, we’ve got, oh, gosh, no, if you criticize somebody, that makes them feel bad. So we have to make sure that we don’t do that. This is harm reduction, okay, which we talk about, which is a major impediment to efficiently running organizations, by the way, if you get to that level. And then you got the people on the other side who just say, you know, that they ought to be able to yell and abuse whoever they want because they’re in charge. Why is it so hard to just go, okay, let’s just, let’s balance. And reasonably and responsibly help people get better instead of trying to tear them down. Hello, everyone watching and listening. Today I’m speaking with lawyer, former Washington state senator, and now federal congressman, Adam Smith. We discussed the difficulties and promise of genuine political dialogue, practical and psychological. The dangers of a too narrow definition of merit and accomplishment. The difference between negotiating and winning. And topics related to mental health and political action outlined in his new book, Lost and Broken. My journey back from chronic pain and crippling anxiety. I’ve been attempting to bring Democrats on my podcast for several years. Congressman Smith is the first sitting house member or senator for that matter, willing to take the risk and to combat in that manner, the dangerous polarization that presently confronts us. All right. Well, Congressman Smith, thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me and to everyone watching and listening today. You and I have met a couple of times before in Washington in preparation for this. I’ve met a lot of Democrats in Washington, congressmen and senators. Many of them were willing, if not pleased, to speak with me there. Often pleased too, I suppose. It’s been somewhat tricky getting Democrats to talk to me on my podcast for a variety of reasons. And so I think that’s unfortunate, but I’m pleased that you have decided to do that. And I guess I’m probably curious to begin with why you agreed to do this and also what you’re hoping to accomplish. And then we’ll dive into the political mess a bit. Sure. I mean, it has been my sort of approach to politics from the very start. And I’ve been doing this a long time. I got elected to the state Senate when I was 25 years old. Heck, I started that campaign two years before it ended. So the age of 23, I decided I wanted to run for office. One of the things I sort of learned as I campaigned back then, doorbelling, basically I knocked on every door in my district, well, every door of a registered voter, to be perfectly honest about it, is the best thing we can do is be open in our conversations. And as a general rule, I’ll listen to anybody. I represent 750,000 people and I represent every single one of them, not just the ones who voted for me. And I have found that I learn a lot if I’m open to listening to people, particularly people that I disagree with. And then also just from a messaging standpoint, I developed a campaign philosophy, which is never let the other side occupy the space. So way back when, when conservative radio started in the 90s, they wanted me on, I went on, let’s talk. I mean, I’m not I’m not afraid of the conversation by coming on someone’s show. I am not endorsing everything that they’ve ever said. I believe that that is the most effective way to represent the district and the most effective way to be a successful politician in general. I’m regular on Fox News. I did Matt Gaetz’s podcast just a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been on Tucker Carlson’s show. And back in the day, Sean Hannity, I just believe that’s the right way to engage general. And in this particular moment, when our country is becoming more and more divided, it seems to me like more and more people are simply deciding, you know, part of their decision is who am I not going to listen to? Who am I not going to engage with? And I think in a representative democracy, that is an incredibly dangerous thing to get that divided. So I definitely want to engage. And I certainly I know a number of people who are big fans of yours. You have a very wide following. You are an influential person when it comes to culture and politics. And for any side of the debate to say, we’re just going to try to like block that, I think it’s incredibly counterproductive as for what I’m hoping to get out of it is just hopefully an informative discussion. And so I go into these things for the most part. I hope to learn something and I hope to offer something that the other person can learn as well. You know, and one final point on this is I think too often now when we’re getting engaged in debates, the goal is to force the other person to agree with you. And don’t get me wrong, there are moments in politics and in life when you’re trying to do that. You know, if a bill is finally on the floor of the House and I’m trying to pass it, I’m trying to win an argument. And at that moment, I’m going to try to get as many people as possible who agree with me. But for the most part, when you’re engaging with someone, your mission shouldn’t be to bludgeon the other side into absolutely agreeing with you on everything. It should be to learn. It should be grow when you’re understanding. Maybe you’re missing something, first of all. Second of all, maybe if you listen to the other side, you will better understand how to make your own argument. So I always find the most interesting discussions to be with people who I don’t agree with on everything. So to me, it’s a logical thing. So there’s two things there. I mean, the first is part of the reason to talk to people with whom you disagree is that you’re going to run into disagreements with what you think in the world from nature and from culture, from other people, from yourself. And if you set yourself up so that you’re optimally challenged by resistance in the abstract realm through discussion, then at least in principle, your ideas are going to be a lot more battle hardened and tested. So there’s no real difference between that thinking. So given that, I’m curious also, given the self-evidence of that and the necessity of that, even in terms of getting your own ideas straight, what do you think it is that’s produced these increasingly insuperable barriers to communication? And also more specifically, why have you got away with talking to the opposition, let’s say, when so many other people appear increasingly unwilling to do so? I mean, you said you’ve talked to all sorts of reprehensible people on the right-wing side. You didn’t say reprehensible. I did not say reprehensible and I don’t believe this. I don’t believe reprehensible. Yes. I said that, definitely. And the walls haven’t come tumbling down on you. Now, people are afraid of council culture and they’re afraid of being mobbed and alienated. And they’re often afraid of that if they step across whatever the divide happens to be at the moment. But by your own testimony, you’ve been talking to people across the aisle and the walls haven’t fallen down on you. So why is that and why, if that’s the case and it can be done, why do you think so many people are loath to do it? Well, I think the biggest reason I’m trying to figure out how to put this, because it’s hard. Okay, it is difficult. And I will tell you right up front, you know, and it’s gotten. And also I’ve been doing this for a long time. I think it’s one of the benefits. If you take me back to in my 20s and everything, I would develop strong opinions about things. I’m a very passionate person. I believe strongly in a number of different things and I believe in advocating for them. And I would build up to a good belief. And then I’d run into someone who would say a bunch of things that I hadn’t thought of. And it’s an incredibly unsettling experience. All right. Because first of all, you’re like, oh, my goodness, I just like put myself out there. And am I wrong? Okay. Am I missing some huge thing? Am I sort of run back in my mind? I was just at this event and I just told these people this is the way it is. This is the way it has to be. And oh, my gosh, I’ve spread this message and I’m wrong. Yeah. You know, so it’s difficult in that regard. And then whenever that happens, there’s, I think, off the top of my head, two possibilities. One, you are in fact wrong. You missed something that is crucial to what your position is. Or two, the argument has come at you that you haven’t had the chance to think your way through it. Okay. Because I frequently will get hit with things. And this happens a lot when we’re debating an issue in the Armed Services Committee. I prepare for a lot of it, but a lot of it is happening. Okay. And it’s always a joke. After the debate, you’re like, oh, I should have made that point. You know, that would, you know. So, but that’s hard. Okay. It’s really hard to go back and, okay, how do I counter that argument? I know what I believe. I believe it if I can just go out there and say it. But now I got to counter this. So I think a lot of people are drawn to the easier thing. And the easier thing is, oh, all these people are preaching to the choir. I mean, pick your favorite cliche at this point. And that’s one of the big things. One of the reasons actually why, I mean, and certainly there are things you and I disagree on. But from what I’ve seen of your speeches and from our conversations, you are a believer in doing things that are difficult. And the inherent benefit that comes to us as human beings from doing that. And so am I. But by definition, it’s not easy. Okay. And as human beings, we are, as I said, I think before we started this, we’re incredibly adaptable. And that’s what I learned from my own personal experience when I went through my mental health and my, you know, physical health problems is human beings are incredibly capable of getting better. All right. So we work at it. That’s number one. But number two, it is rarely our first inclination to do something that’s uncomfortable. We are going to look for the more comfortable option, just instinctively. So you have to fight that instinct. It’s not easy. It’s not easy to do the thing that’s uncomfortable. That’s going to make you better. And I think a lot of people struggle with that. And of course, modern technology makes it very easy to never have to encounter things that you don’t agree with. You can you can filter every aspect of your life to make sure it stays in the lane you want to stay in. Final point on this. Don’t want to give a long winded answer. Second question here, but is, you know, I think it’s the reason people say, wow, we never talk about politics and religion. Okay. What’s the fun in that? Okay. You know, how do we learn and grow if we don’t talk about the things that make us a little bit uncomfortable so that we can better understand each other and not be off in our own little corners thinking all kinds of awful, terrible things about each other and then never, never trying to bridge that divide. So by temperament, I’m a very agreeable person, which is a rather feminine trait because women tend to be more agreeable than men and agreeable. People don’t like conflict. And I’ve been embroiled in a lot of conflict. And there’s a very specific reason for that. And the reason is, is that I learned mostly through clinical experience, although that wasn’t all of it, that conflict delayed is conflict multiplied. And, you know, you pointed out that it’s challenging to be shown to be wrong. And the reason for that, I’ve looked at this technically, the reason for that is that our beliefs orient us like a person is oriented with a map. And if you find out that your map is wrong, then you don’t know where you are and you don’t know where you’re going. And that produces anxiety and hopelessness. And the bigger the mistake, the more of the map is invalidated. And that’s very disorienting, profoundly disorienting. We don’t like to be lost. And so then you might say, well, why would you ever bother challenging your beliefs or engaging in conflict with someone? And the answer to that, this is a bit of a reiteration, but the answer to that is quite clear. It’s a lot better to have your ideas tested in the abstract than it is to have your convictions demolished by reality itself. And so you need to, this is partly what I think has gone wrong, for example, in the education system. Luke Kinoff has written a fair bit about this, along with Jonathan Haidt, is that we believe that students, because of the fragility of their mental health, should be shielded from uncomfortable conversations, let’s say, or uncomfortable conversations. And the clinical reality is very, very clear. It’s very clear. This is one thing that all reliable clinicians have agreed upon over a 50-year period, which is that voluntary encounter with what you’re afraid of and even potentially disgusted by is clearly salutary and curative. And so you want to give people a hair of the dog that bit them constantly, right, to fortify them against challenge. And the best way to do that is to engage voluntarily in the exchange of ideas, of representations. So, and the reason I’m dwelling on this in part is because people might be listening and thinking, why in the hell should I ever have a difficult conversation? Why should I ever talk to someone who disagrees with me? And the answer is, well, if you’re 100% right about everything and you’re currently living in paradise itself and everything in your life is as good as it can possibly be, then you don’t ever have to encounter a negative opinion because you’ve got everything right. But if there’s some unfurled corner of your soul that still isn’t in the order that it could be, and you’re feeling that as a consequence of your own suffering, then you should be out there testing your ideas against everything you possibly can on the off chance that you might be fortunate enough to learn how you’re stupid and wrong so you can stop being both of those. And of course that’s painful, but it’s not as painful as being stupid and wrong souls. Well, I mean, a couple of things about that. I mean, first of all, I’m with you. I, you know, as I document, I grew up a very anxious person. I did not like conflict either because I had massive insecurities, psychological issues that became significant problems later in life. So, yeah, right there with you, because I think it’s worth pointing out that there are some people who like conflict and seek it out. And that’s not a good thing. And that sort of brings me to the third point. And dealing with what you’re talking about, to me, it’s all about balance. And that’s something that we’ve sort of lost. And again, I think part of the problem is balance is difficult. You tell me that in every situation, this is the way it is. All right, I’m good. I know what to do. You tell me in every situation that it’s great. But if you tell me, well, it depends. OK, you know, what did the person say? What are the circumstances? Well, then you’re back into a situation where you got to work pretty hard to figure out what the right way to be is. And that’s hard. But that’s life. We need to teach people how to balance that. And I’m completely with you on the fact that in our education system and in many aspects of our life right now, we do not teach resilience. OK, we teach people to be protected. Now, the one caveat I’ll throw out there is a lot of these people who like conflict, you know, get to the point where they take a certain amount of joy in putting people in difficult circumstances, which is not for any clinically beneficial person. It’s just because they’re being jerks. So you can empower a lot of people acting like jerks by saying, well, of course we have to test them. So you always have to try to have a balance here. The purpose of conflict is to help people get better. And you have to understand that purpose of conflict is not so that you can attack somebody. All right. I see this, frankly, a lot of times in parenting is really important. I have twenty three and a 20 year old child. So my wife and I have raised two children now and have experienced this and we’re human. We’re trying to educate our children along the way, teach them how to be better. But then also we got our own stuff going on here. OK, so when you’re getting angry at a child, is it because you’re trying to make them better or is because you’re trying to score a point and you really need to try to figure out how to balance that? And I think a lot of people don’t. So if you can balance those two things, it’s fine. I mean, I’m completely with you on the resilience thing. But you also have to guard against resilience being just an excuse to abuse somebody. So with regard to scoring a point. So you imagine that there are two ways of establishing a modicum of psychological and possibly social stability. And one would be to negotiate a settlement voluntarily so that you and I could exchange our opinions and come to a negotiated agreement about the nature of the present and about the nature of the desirable future. Right now, the advantage to that is that if it’s voluntarily negotiated, you can go off on your own and I can go off on my own. We’ll walk down the same path without a lot of mutual without a lot of mutual supervision. So that’s very helpful. Another alternative, though, is to attain a certain degree of comparative status. And so it turns out that the serotonin system monitors comparative status. And so if I score a point on you, in principle, that elevates my status above you. And then you might ask, well, what’s the advantage to that? And the advantage to status acquisition is a raise in central serotonin function, and that dampens negative emotion. And so you can imagine you can imagine there’s two deep places. There’s two deep sources of the conflict between two different approaches to problem solving. Right. If I can attain comparative status, this is people are trying to obtain comparative status very constantly in our culture, often without doing the requisite effort. But the advantage to that is that the status boost does produce a quelling of negative emotion. Now, it’s not as good a solution as a negotiated peace. The problem with a negotiated peace is that you have to wander through the bloody disagreement and sort out all the intervening conflicts in order to establish the peace. If I could try to put it a little bit more simply, when you’re having a discussion with somebody, are you trying to solve a problem? Are you trying to get to a fair result? Or are you trying to win? OK, and there’s a big difference. And I think in a lot of the disagreements out there in the world too often now, people are trying to win. OK, they’re trying to own the other side. Me, temperamentally, I don’t know why, but I’m a peacemaker. Well, I think it’s partially because I grew up anxious and there were things in my family that were a little disruptive, and I just want peace and stability. And I learned early on. And it’s not that I’m not selfish and not passionate and don’t have things that I personally want. But as I grew, I realized that above all of those things is I wanted a peaceful environment around me. And if I’m going to achieve a peaceful environment around me, I have to care what other people want and what other people think too. And you have to work at that. And that’s where I think the conflict goes. I think you’re right. You do. You get that initial high. I was right. You know, now I’m going to win the argument. Now everybody has to do what I say from here on out because I’ve proven that I am the superior intellect in this place. It’s like, yeah, that doesn’t work too well past a certain point. We all have our ups and downs. And again, I really want to emphasize this point. You know, I’ve negotiated a lot of things over what is it now? Thirty three years that I’ve been an elected official. And it’s so crucial if you’re going to negotiate something. Actually, I’ll quote something a good friend of mine who’s a very successful businessman told me if he’s involved in a business deal and when it’s all over said and done with, he got everything he wanted. He knows he did it wrong. OK, right. Because it’s got to be about how we keep everybody on board. And I worry that as we become more dogmatic in our politics and our business in our my gosh and literally for crying out loud, you know, it’s like, no, we have to win. We have to be the one on top. We have to decide. OK, but you’re in for a whole lot of conflict if you don’t care at least a little bit about whether or not the community as a whole was getting to a fair place. OK, so so that’s a great segue as far as I’m concerned into a political issue that I’d be longing to hash out with the Democrats, for example, who will talk to me. I’d like to explain momentarily why I’m not a fan of identity politics. And it’s relevant. I think it’s relevant to the concerns that you just laid out. It’s incredibly relevant. Yes. OK, so so so. What I see happening in the broad culture, and this is part of the culture war, is this increasing insistence that I can define myself in precisely the terms that I want to define myself. Now, that tends to devolve into something like sexual identification or ethnic identification or some other group identification, which is also something I think is incredibly dangerous. But but here’s the problem with this. And I’ve been trying to think it through from the perspective of a psychotherapist. On the one hand, I could claim that one of my clients, for example, has the perfect right to define themselves subjectively. But that runs into a number of problems. And the problems are, for example, that sometimes people’s subjective self-identification is clearly counterproductive. So anorexics, for example, think they’re too fat when, in fact, they’re generally on the verge of absolute starvation. And people who are manic get a very expanded sense of self-confidence and believe that they can do all sorts of things that they can’t and that they have resources that they don’t. And so forth. Almost everything about psychotherapy is actually about identity. And so it’s clearly the case that you cannot merely identify yourself subjectively and proceed appropriately in the world on that basis. And here’s why, I believe. And this is partly, I think, what’s tilted me more towards conservatism insofar as I am tilted in that direction. So psychotherapists, who are inheritors of a kind of a Protestant and humanistic tradition, have presumed that mental health is something that characterizes the structure of your psyche. It’s something internal. And I think that that’s incorrect. I think that what mental health is, is the net benefit of experiencing a harmonious nested relationship with the broader community. So it’s very difficult to be sane if you’re not getting along with your wife. And you and your wife can’t be sane if you’re not getting along with your children. And your family can’t be sane if you’re having a scrap with your local community. And the local community can’t be sane if it’s not well integrated into the town and the state and the nation and then whatever might happen to be above that. And so the right manner of conceptualizing mental health is that it’s the manifestation of the harmony that comes from having the hierarchy of being put in its proper place. Now, when we turn to subjective self-identification on the sexual or ethnic front, for example, the insistence that I am whoever I say I am, the problem with that is, what the hell are the other people supposed to do? I mean, you’ve been married for decades. You have kids. You know 30 years. Congratulations. I just had my 34th this week. You know perfectly well that, and this is Jermain also to your point about conflict, is that you have to establish a negotiated peace in order for stability to maintain itself. And negotiation, what you’re negotiating constantly, as far as I can tell, is your identity. Right? Yes, absolutely. So I’m very concerned about. I’m very concerned about. Okay, so what, so first of all, do you think that that’s, those observations are relevant to the culture war that’s raging now, not least over subjective self-identification? And what’s your opinion about how the political landscape has laid itself out around those issues? Sure. I think it’s very relevant. Let me make a couple quick points to walk through this. First of all, yeah, and we haven’t talked about it. I keep making references to physical and mental pain. I went through a severe anxiety problem, severe chronic, I wrote a book about it, which sort of outlined how I got through that. When you started talking about psychotherapy, I went through three and a half years of psychotherapy that was enormously helpful. And I think you’re right. Your internal mental health is going to be dictated a lot by your relationships. I would say in defense of the psychotherapists out there in the world, your ability to have those positive relationships has a lot to do with your own internal mind and whether or not you are a psychologically stable person, whether or not you’ve dealt with the issues in your life. So just that little quick shout out to the psychotherapists. I think there is an important component of that. Second, I think you’re working your way around the broader culture issue that we have, and I think it is incredibly important. I read Christopher Ruffo’s book, Along the Lines of Me Being Engaged. That night I spoke to Chris just last week and walked through some of this. And you’re getting down sort of into the granular level of, okay, what has happened as an outgrowth of our concern about racism, bigotry, and discrimination, and the conversations that people have had about how identity factors into that. But I think the big problem and the thing that I hope and I can try to convince folks on the conservative side of this, that when it comes to the fight and the battle that we have, and certainly I think Christopher Ruffo did a pretty good job of outlining some of the more extreme elements of the left approach to this. But what motivates people like me is the fact that racism, bigotry, and discrimination are problems in American society. They are. Okay. You can’t fairly look at the history of the United States and conclude otherwise. Now, I also think you can’t fairly look at the history of the United States and conclude that that’s all we’ve ever been about, okay, is racism, bigotry, and discrimination. I think as with most things, it’s a balance and there’s a lot of things going on. I think the problem I have with the conservative movement, I had this conversation with Mr. Ruffo, is yes, what the left is doing is problematic, but the right, conservatives, Republicans, they don’t offer a reasonable alternative because their alternative is racism and bigotry aren’t really a problem. Let’s just stop worrying about it and move on. Okay. And logically, I have all kinds of problems with that approach. So then we get trapped between the far right in terms of how they want to approach that and the far left and their very specific way of approaching it. And to answer one of your earlier questions that I skipped over as to why I can be successful doing this, I think the overwhelming majority people are in fact looking for what I’m talking about, an open and engaging approach. They’re just not offered it altogether that often. And that’s where we’re trapped in identity politics is these two extremes. Okay. Racism, bigotry, and discrimination is everything. Every single decision, every single thought you’ve ever had has to be focused on identity. And then the other side, not a problem that we’re thinking about. There’s a lot in between there that I think we could work on to build a better society. It’s time to take your fall style to the next level. Dressing for success can help you look better and be more confident. So whether you’re attending an important meeting or networking event or simply want to impress your colleagues, Mizzen in Maine has everything you need. 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All gifts are tax deductible. You will never regret saving a child’s life. That’s pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com slash Jordan. Well, it’s part of the problem that you point to in your book and your book. I thought I just point this out to everyone. Sure. The book is called, I’ve got it written down here. I want to get it exactly right. Lost and Broken, My Journey Back from Chronic Pain and Crippling Anxiety. One of the things you discuss in that book is the difficulty of diagnosis. And this is relevant with regard to the judicious decisions and conversations that are necessary in assigning responsibility. And you might ask, well, why bother calling your kids out on something they’ve done wrong if it hurts their feelings? And certainly parents will avoid doing that, especially if they’re the kind of parents that foster dependence. But the answer is, well, if your child did something stupid that hurt them and other people in a manner that’s counterproductive, if continued, the price they have to pay to realize that flaw is offset by the advantage of not doing the stupid thing again. Now, the diagnostic complexity is twofold. Right. One is, first of all, things are complex and deciding how someone went to hell in a handbasket, parsing that up, the responsibility up there with regard to social contribution, familial contribution and individual responsibility. I mean, that can take hundreds of hours of dialogue. It’s very, very complicated. So complexity is part of it. And then the conflict that might come along with mediating responsibility and blame, that’s difficult. You know, if you’re talking to your kids, they might say, well, you know, if you weren’t such a son of a bitch, I wouldn’t be so rebellious. And that’s, you know, that’s a perfectly reasonable potential proposition. But there’s no shortage of conflict that has to be had in sorting that out. And of course, one other layer on that I just want to throw in. And so I have two children and I’m married. And when you’re like negotiating between, OK, an argument between like my son and my wife or my son, my daughter, then it’s like, OK, well, what about what they did? And then that throws in a little bit more complexity as well. Personally, I think it’s all navigable. I guess you can work your way through it. Let’s put it that way. It’s not easy for the reasons you describe, but I think it is more doable than most people give it credit for. That’s all I’m saying. Well, the alternative is to put your head in the sand and continue to get kicked as a consequence or to degenerate into outright conflict. I mean, it’s either it’s negotiation, slavery or tyranny. Those are the fundamental options. And so, well, on that front, one of the things I’ve also viewed and you can help me with this, if you would, is I’m watching you guys in the U.S. Tear yourselves apart. We’re doing it to some degree in Canada with regard to the idea of systemic racism, let’s say. Now, you pointed out quite rightly that the proclivity to alienate and manifest prejudice because of innate group differences is pervasive. And I think the anthropological literature suggests that, you know, most tribal groups around the world describe their people as human and everyone else as non-human. It’s an extraordinarily common linguistic categorization proclivity. And so I think you can make a strong Hobbesian case that although people are cooperative and will reach across the aisle, that generally we tend to think of the people like us as human and the people who aren’t like us is not human. And so out of that comes systemic bias and racism. I don’t know that I would go quite that far. I would say we tend to be tribal. We tend to think of the group that we belong to as being somehow better than other groups. I don’t know that we necessarily decide that other groups aren’t human, just that there’s the tendency to think that you’re better. And that will vary, obviously, situation to situation. But it is a human tendency. You see, it’s complex because obviously tribal groups can trade and intermingle. And so there is a countervailing tendency, but the linguistic tendency is literally to define the non-tribal members as not human. Now, I’m not saying that we necessarily do that fully, but we can easily be tempted in that direction. Now, the radical leftist critique of American society is that the society itself is systemically racist. And this actually really bothers me as an outside observer and an admirer of the American system. Now, the Canadian system is quite similar, although we’re doing everything we can to muck it up at the moment. But you see, my sense is exactly the opposite, which is that the proclivity for systemic bias and racism is deeply rooted in the human soul. And it’s a bloody miracle that there was any progress. There’s ever been any progress made in that direction at all. And I would say that your society, grounded as it is in a broader UK tradition, is the stellar example of the countervailing tendency, which is to attribute to all human souls something approximating divine value, regardless of the particulars of their group identity. And so then when I see these radical critiques of American society, accusing it of systemic racism and being even founded on those principles, I think this is very counterproductive because not only is it not the case, it’s actually the case that the UK slash American tradition that has made of slavery, let’s say, an absolute moral evil, is rare and most pronounced in the case of the Anglo-American tradition. And so what I see happening with the radical leftists, for example, is they’re actually throwing out the very thing that they purport to support. Because, well, and you can tell me what you think about this, the idea that might makes right and that if I can force you into servitude, I have the right to do that. That’s pretty damn self-evident. The notion that you have some intrinsic worth, even if you’re weak and easily, what would you say, easily manipulated and forced, that you still have some worth, that’s a very difficult proposition to put forward. And yet both the UK and the US managed it. And whatever degree of true interracial harmony and freedom has prevailed, particularly in the West, particularly in the US, is actually a consequence of that countervailing tendency. And I think that’s the fundamental forward thrust of the American enterprise. So when I see the leftists go after that, and that’s something that’s become increasingly dogmatically taught in universities, I think, God, you guys, you’re killing the very thing that in principle has been the closest thing to bringing about what you want that’s ever made itself manifest in history. Yeah. I mean, I think you’ve hit upon what is one of this principle divisive issues in American politics that is making things more difficult to get things done, because people are locked into that debate. Which side is going to win that debate? And as I’ve said a couple of times and will likely say more frequently as this interview progresses, I take a more practical problem solving approach to things. And it’s, you know, what do we need to do to build a better society? Now, when it comes to what is America founded on, it’s not one thing and it’s not one thing to one group of people. I tend to agree with you that the principle idea is equality, is the idea that we are not going to be as tribal. That’s certainly what the documents said. But I think the thing to remember, you know, for conservatives is this approach to dealing with racism, bigotry and discrimination didn’t come from nowhere. OK, it came from in addition to all those traditions that you rightly just described, we’ve had a pretty rich history of also some pretty thorough discrimination. Now, that’s changed, gotten better. I confidently assert of the course of the last 60 years. But for much of American history, I mean, let’s start with, you know, the founding principles of everyone should have a say in how they are governed. Democracy, which was one of the big ideas that we tried to introduce. Well, at the time we introduced it, everyone knows. I mean, it applied to white male property owners. And that was it. Now, my personal take on this is at the time we did that, democracy in its truest sense really didn’t exist anywhere on the globe. So to take that step was a significant step. And ever since then, we’ve been expanding on that. OK, we’ve been trying to get better at it. But also along the way, incredible history of, you know, white supremacy, patriarchy, all manner of discrimination that have in fact been more locked in to how we’ve governed ourselves than most people realize. And I’ll give you just one one example and then expand out on how I think we should handle this. And I agree with you. The way the far left is handling it, I don’t agree with. OK, I also don’t agree with the way the right is handling it. But, you know, we have this debate and it’s something that I led the fight on in Congress to rename military bases in our country. We have a lot of military bases and installations and other things, ships that were named after civil war, southern generals and southern leaders. And so we’ve pushed this effort to say we should change those names. And we get into this debate about you can’t. It’s our history. It’s, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And as I’ve debated this and I found out what a lot of people don’t realize about that stuff, this stuff was not named in 1870 or 1880. The names came about in the early 20th century. After reconstruction failed, there was a concerted effort in many parts of this country to reestablish white supremacy. You go back and you listen to some of the speeches. I think I forget the name of it. This is Stone Mountain, Georgia, which is this etching of, I think, four Confederate generals. Go back to 1910 when it opened and you listen to the speeches to the people commemorating that. It’s a lot of white supremacy. All right. It’s the same time the Ku Klux Klan rose up at the same time that Jim Crow got put in place. There’s actually a pretty interesting book. I forget the name of it. I think it’s a fever in the heartland by Tim Egan about how the Klan took over Indiana. Okay. Not talking Alabama, talking Indiana, early 20th century in the fight that had to go to move that back. So that history exists. All right. And we have to wrestle with that history and fear. What does it mean? How do we better treat people equal and not fall back into that? Now, I have participated in some DEI trainings, not that many. And there’s two parts of it that I really like. And then I think there’s an incredible missed opportunity. The part that I like is we talk about this history because a lot of people don’t understand this history. I mean, they don’t know. It’s like, well, okay, yeah, the Civil War happened. The North won and there was, you know, discrimination in the South. And then everything sort of sorted itself out. Well, well, no, actually, it didn’t. Well into the 70s, 80s, 90s. Okay. There were significant problems in all of these areas. And if we educate ourselves about that history, we will better understand our own country. And frankly, I think we’ll better understand how difficult it is to achieve the ideals that you talked about. This is what we’re trying to do, but it doesn’t necessarily come easily. So understand that history. And then the second piece of what they try to do is and the individual that you’re working with, what’s their story? Who are they? Okay. You know, if you are a black person growing up in America, you had a different experience than if you were a white person growing up in America. And if you’re going to work with somebody, whether it’s in an office or a school or wherever, having a conversation and understanding your colleagues, I think, is a very positive thing. Now, where it goes off the beam, in my estimation, is it then sort of talks about how discrimination and bigotry is unique to white Western culture. Okay. Yeah, that’s pretty. That’s right. Well, to call that wrong is to barely scrape the surface. It’s a universal human proclivity. It is. But understand that under the circumstances, and there’s a lot of different reasons, but white European culture emerged as the dominant culture, I don’t know, 19th century thereabouts. Actually, I’m reading a book called When China Rules the World. It’s written in 2009. It’s an assumption about how China is coming and what’s it going to be like. And it sort of walks through this history of how, and to some degree, it was an accident of history. Guns, germs, and steel, right? Whatever played out, this particular group of people became dominant. It was white men, so therefore that discrimination was the discrimination that dominated a significant chunk of the globe. It’s not irrelevant to point out that that came to pass. I think it is more helpful in going all the way back, and I’ll close with this, to your identity comment. What I find most useful is when we talk about things that talk about our shared humanity as opposed to the things that make us different. And of course we’re different. Of course men are different from women. Of course, whatever your cultural background is, it’s going to make you a little bit different from somebody else. It’s so much better when we talk about the things that we have in common. And I think one of the things we have in common, no matter who you are, is a feeling that other people don’t understand you. Okay? I mean, that’s a pretty universal thing in my experience. So if you want to get together and talk about, well, here’s my experience, but we shouldn’t segregated it based on race or anything like that. We should put humans together and say, discrimination, bigotry, bias, these can be problems. You know, let’s talk about how we have things in common instead of how we’re different. So I think we could do a lot better. But again, the problem is, and we had this debate in the House Armed Services Committee on this year’s defense bill. Now that the Republicans have retaken the House, I was the chairman of the committee for four years when Democrats were in charge. Now I’m the ranking member. Diversity, equity, inclusion was a huge part of the debate. And the debate on the right was, we got to get rid of it. Lock, stock, and barrel. We just got to get rid of it. I just think there’s got to be a better answer. I don’t necessarily, not necessarily, I don’t like the way. The far left does diversity, equity, and inclusion. But the idea that we can just say, it’s all good. No racism here, no bigotry. Let’s just move forward and not talk about it. I am at least equally troubled by. Yeah, well, what seems to have happened to me on the DEI front, especially, is that, and this has been partly abetted by psychologists who put forward the implicit association test, for example, which purports to indicate that the standard psyche is wired up, rife with implicit biases of sufficient magnitude to warp the entire social enterprise. These are very weak tests, by the way. They’re not very valid. They’re nowhere near valid enough to be used for clinical diagnosis because there are very stringent criteria established to allow a test to be used for clinical diagnosis. And the accusation of racism is a kind of diagnosis, and you cannot do that with implicit association tests, period. Two of the people who made the tests, there are three, have already disavowed their use for such purposes. And so what I see happening with the DEI movement, at least in some not small part, is that people who are advancing a particular view of their own moral virtue and who are misusing the science in an, what would you say, unforgivable manner, are elevating their status in the public domain by purporting to be compassionate when in fact all they’re doing, most of what they’re doing, is feathering their own nests at the expense of broader social harmony. I see very little good in the… Yeah, and I hear that. And certainly people will always try to push the debates in their favor. And as I said, I go to great lengths to avoid those sorts of traps and get back to sort of just practically what are we trying to accomplish here? I’m thinking as we’re talking about this, about the question that was popular, and may still be, do you think healthcare is a privilege or a right? They’ll ask that question, is that the answer has some sort of significant impact on the quality of your healthcare system. Yeah, I mean call it what you want to call it. It’s a public good that we need to figure out how to deliver in the most efficient and effective way possible. Let’s work on that. But people are always trying to position themselves. If I can get people to use the right language, I win. Okay, and the thing is, that’s not entirely wrong, okay, but it also distracts from the practical problem solving of how do we actually improve things. So more so than just about anybody you’re ever going to come across, I will fight against that. I will not answer those sort of, well, do you believe it? It’s like, let’s talk about what we want to do with the policy. I’ll talk about that. I’m not going to pick your word or her word or his word. Let’s just work on solving the problem. But I’ll give you one of the examples that I give a lot of times about why I think DEI is important. And my district is kind of fascinating. I graduated from Taiye High School, which is right by SeaTac Airport. My father was a baggage handler for United at SeaTac. That’s why I grew up there. And when I graduated, South King County, which is south of Seattle, was a white, blue collar suburb. It’s what it was. It has diversified massively in the 40 years since I graduated from high school. And one of the things that I’ve noticed in the community, and I’ll talk about me first of all, is I don’t know, I was like 10, 15 years into my career in Congress when I looked around and noticed that most of the people who were working in my office were white. You know, there was no problem between men and women. But the reason for that, most of the time, the first job that you’re going to get is going to be because you know somebody. I mean, it does happen that someone just answers a want ad and they get a job. But for the most part, it’s connections that help move you forward. I grew up in an entirely white community. I came from an entirely white family. The people I knew, by and large, were white. The people who I knew, knew were, by and large, white. You know, I wasn’t biased against anybody. I just, well, I was biased in the sense that I wanted to hire people who I knew. And I looked at this and I said, OK, this is a problem. Now, I think a lot of people would say, well, no, it’s not a problem. Do you think you’re hiring bad people? No, I don’t think I’m hiring bad people. Are you not having a rigor, you know? No, I think we’re doing a decent job. It’s still a problem because you’re not reaching out to a broader community. So what my office did is, well, let’s work with some community groups. And there’s a variety of different, you know, there’s a thing called Tabor 100 that tries to help African-American business people. And I’d worked with them a lot. There’s the Black Collective in Tacoma. There’s El Centro de la Raza that works with the Hispanic community. A variety of different groups. And I said, when we have a job opening, now what I’m going to do is I’m going to reach out to them. I’m going to say, I got this position. Who you got? And it diversified my workforce. I think it’s really important that you, and I’m going to go ahead and use a left-wing word here, it’s about the only one that I like. You have to be intentional. And I believe in that. You know, if you’re trying to get something done, it doesn’t happen by accident. So you have to affirmatively reach out in that way. And I think we need to have those types of programs. And a lot of times people… Well, I would say just on technical grounds, your argument is correct in relationship to competence. Because the case you’re laying out essentially is that because of the ethnocentric structure of your connection network, there were potentially qualified candidates that you are unlikely to come into contact with. And so by diversifying your outreach in relationship to candidate selection, you were able to, in principle, find more qualified people because it’s a broader pool, and with the subsidiary benefit of potentially providing a workforce that was more representative of the community. But it seems to me that all of that can be accomplished by the mere observation that a broader and more differentiated candidate pool, all things considered, is technically preferable rather than concentrating particularly on equity issues. And equity, this is another thing that I’ve talked to Democrats across the country about, and most particularly in Washington. Equity is a word that really disturbs me because equity fundamentally means equality of outcome. And equality of outcome is a very bad idea because there’s no difference between inequality of outcome and ownership. Like if you own something, that means that you have an unequal access to it in relationship to someone else. And there’s no way of eradicating inequality without eradicating ownership per se. And the notion that we can calculate the fairness of our society by dividing people, subdividing people into their group identities, and checking every single enterprise to make sure that proportionality exists, which would be impossible in any case, definitely puts the cart before the horse. And I also see in the term equity, and of course Christopher Ruffo is concentrated on this too, that’s the place that I see the most radical form of quasi-Marxist ideation invading the Democratic discussion. So that’s a concern. I both agree with you and disagree with you on this point. I think if you, well, the way I disagree with you is equity, equality, they mean a lot of different things. Okay, back to my whenever, well, ask me, are you a socialist? I don’t know, what do you mean? Okay, you know, equity and equality are the same, kind of the same way. They can mean a lot of different things. If you just say I’m for equity or I’m against equity, you haven’t added anything to the conversation. Now, where it is true is what you said, there is a certain segment of the left-wing political world that is defined equity in a very specific way that has sort of got them wrapped up in a lot of confusion because when you get past the point where it’s okay, you can certainly focus, I mean, I’m kind of getting myself in trouble here, but the two most discriminated groups in America, broadly speaking, are black people and Native Americans. Okay, you know, if you wanted to start somewhere in terms of who America has treated poorly, that’s a pretty good place to start. But it goes beyond that. Okay, well, what about recent immigrants? How do you salami slice it past a certain point? Let’s say, okay, you’ve improved equity, you have more people of color in your office, but you don’t have any Asian Americans. Okay, or you could go right down further. Okay, you’ve got a bunch of people from India, but you don’t have many people from South East. I mean, you can go down that road to the point where it’s impossible to achieve that. And I think that has, in many instances, happened, and that is a challenge. However, I don’t think equity and equality are, well, irrelevant. I think equity and equality are things that we need to work towards, okay? Not in the sense that you just described, where equity means absolutely everybody, regardless of anything, has everything the same. That’s ridiculous, okay? But if you simply go the equality of outcome route, then you’re leaving out a whole bunch of stuff that comes before you get a chance to have that outcome. Yeah, well, that’s for sure. So we need to think about that, and we need to think about, in that case, historical racism, historical discrimination, redlining, okay? A whole bunch of different things do factor into what the outcome is today. This is very difficult. There’s no simple way to do this. There’s no formula that you’re going to come up with. In fact, one of the big things that I frequently say, a problem we have in the world, if you are after perfect justice, then you are going to be any permanent state of war. I have this vivid image in my mind of Milosevic back in 1988, when on what I think was the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo, where, long story short, the Serbs got their asses kicked by somebody, and they’ve been bitter about it ever since, and they were going to write that raw 600 years later, and a number of people got slaughtered over the course of that fight, all right? If you’re constantly focused on everything has to be equitable, then you’re in a bad place. If, on the other hand, you just sort of shrug and go, well, you know, not anything we need to worry about, you’re also going to be in trouble. And I just think that the human mind is, in fact, capable of striking that balance without having to choose one side or the other, okay? We can work and say, okay, here’s a group of people that don’t seem to be achieving. Is it the case that they’re somehow just inferior? No. Okay, so let’s think creatively. How can we be more inclusive? How can we help them get to a better outcome, knowing that it’s never going to be perfectly equal? It seems to me, certainly in American politics, I don’t know anything about Canadian politics, so I will not speak to that, that we’ve just set up this false choice. You know, either you have to be a full-on equity identity politics far-left person, or you have to be on the right and not care about it at all. You know, and that dynamic is something that I’m trying to fight, is to get to people saying, no, we can find a more reasonable place in between here. It doesn’t have to be this death match between two extreme ideologies. Yeah, well, you make a constant case in your conversation with me today for differentiation and diagnosis. I mean, one of the problems is that it’s easy for us, for everyone, to abstract a problem way too far up the abstraction hierarchy and to talk about such things, for example, as healthcare, when in fact there’s no such thing as healthcare. There’s 10,000 different variants of caring for people, each of which is a complex problem on its own. And you can understand why people would rather have a one-size-fits-all solution, because, well, if you could have that, it would be wonderful, and it certainly decreases the cognitive complexity, but it is necessary and challenging to differentiate. I wanted to turn to something… Can I ask you one question before we move off? It’s interesting, your cognitive take on this, because my shorthand to all of this, it’s a quote that I quote in my book. I always misquote it because I prefer it this way, but Sue Grafton, who was a mystery writer, she wrote the A to Z, the Kinsey-Mohallan mysteries. She wrote one of her books, she said, thinking’s hard work, that’s why most people don’t do it. I’m sort of torn between that and also a passionate belief that if we engage and take on difficult problems, we get more joy out of it, okay? We don’t have to accept the fact, well, let’s dumb everything down, because nobody wants to work hard. I just don’t… I don’t really believe that. And actually, there’s a professor at Yale University, I think it’s Dr. Santos, who teaches a class on happiness. It’s the most highly subscribed class, apparently, in the history of Yale. And her big point is, what makes us happy is to be productive, but our basic instinct is to not be productive. So we have to work, work through that. And I just feel like, someone like yourself, who has much more medical background than I do, why can’t we get the human brain to embrace that a little bit more? To see complexity as a good thing, not a bad thing. That’s what I’m trying to say. Well, you put your finger on a fundamental problem, the problem of complexity. The problem of complexity is essentially that there’s far more entropy in the cosmos, in the world, than there is organizational capacity in the psyche, right? Because things overwhelm us, and that’s actually a technical problem, because if you’re exposed involuntarily to a situation that’s complex, you will manifest a stress response, and that’s accompanied by an increase, for example, in the production of cortisol. And what that does is start to have you burn up resources that you could be saving for future use now. And if you’re chronically stressed, you will age. There’s very little difference between those two things. And so if you’re exposed to too much complexity, especially involuntarily, it will take you out physiologically, psychophysiologically. And so people are very motivated to avoid it. You see, but the thing… Well, let me add one more detail to that, because while it’s the rest of the answer to your question, so then you might ask yourself, well, how do you calibrate the optimal amount of exposure to complexity? And the answer to that technically seems to be by moving towards something approximating the spirit of voluntary play. So now you and I, like we have agreements and disagreements in the way that we map the world. And what we’re doing, and I think we’ve done this successfully so far in this conversation, is to push each other in an optimized manner that enables something approximating the spirit of cooperative and competitive play to emerge. And you can tell that’s happening, because to the degree that we’re successful at it, we’re deeply engrossed in the conversation, and we’re developing as a consequence of doing that. And so I believe that the instinct of meaning, and it manifests itself, for example, in play, the instinct of meaning is exactly the instinct that tells you when you’re optimizing your confrontation with complexity. Yeah. Here’s the interesting thing about that to me, going back to my psychological problems and my anxiety and what psychotherapy ultimately did for me. I believe that you can train the brain to better deal with complexity. Something somebody said to me, and I mentioned this in my book early on, was that it’s not the amount of stress in your life, it’s how you process it. Now, at the time she told me that, I was in the early stages of my second bout with crippling anxiety, and I completely rejected what she said. My whole life had been a combination between, on the one hand, I was incredibly ambitious. I wanted a lot out of my life. So I had to push myself to get there, and I understood that. But even as I was doing that, I sort of thought of it as, I’ve got a tank here, all right, and I’m going to use it up, and then I’m done, okay? And then I got to retreat. And so in my early battles to deal with anxiety, I was focused on, okay, what can I sort of declutter my life, right? How can I change things so I don’t have as much stress? But the central insight, she gave me that insight, it took me several years and three and a half years with the psychotherapy to understand it, is she’s right. It is not the amount of complexity in your life, it is how you process it. And that’s the basics, to my mind, of simple meditation. I say simple meditation because complex meditation is something I’ve never been able to do. Meditation is not about eliminating every thought in your head, okay? I thought that for the longest time. It’s a very difficult thing to do, and it will drive you crazy. You know, I’m meditating, I’m meditating, oh my gosh, I had a thought, I failed. Not the way to do it. The point is, a whole lot of stuff is going to come at you. Every single day it’s coming at you, all right? Thoughts, feelings, sounds, you have to teach yourself to be able to, from time to time, just sort of let it bounce off, okay? Notice it and move on. So, you know, we could walk down a road here, I know you wanted to go in a different direction, but that’s what I found most interesting about the brain, is I think you can teach it, it’s not just, okay, here’s my complexity jar, once it hits here, I’m out, okay? I think you can train your brain to better process complexity, and in that sense, I think basic mental health has a lot to do with some of our broader societal problems. Well, you made a case there that you could imagine that you could protect yourself against being swamped by entropy, you could protect yourself against complexity by defensively armoring yourself, for example, and by walling yourself off from complex problems. That idea goes along with the kind of zero-sum mentality that you also described, which is, well, I have a limited amount of resource, and when that’s exhausted, I’m done, and so I better be careful. Now, we know that’s not true, for example, and I think this is best illustrated when you think about people playing a game, is that if you are playing one-on-one basketball with someone, you’re going to want to find somebody who’s about as good as you are or slightly better. And the reason for that is because you might want to win, but actually what you want to do is get better at playing basketball. And the same is true of the proper attitude towards complexity. People often wall themselves off and defend themselves and retreat because they’re afraid they’ll be overwhelmed. But you can teach people, and you do this through graduated exposure and incremental improvement, you can teach people to stay on the edge, an edge they define, an edge of competence, and in consequence, what happens is that their capacity to deal with complexity continues to expand. And that’s really a process of optimized maturation. And what’s fun about that, I love this, being a clinician, is that there’s nothing more engrossing and entertaining than helping someone negotiate to a point where they can discover that it’s the edge between chaos and order, by the way, the developmental edge, the zone of proximal development, to help people discover that and learn to stay there. There isn’t anything more rewarding than that. And there isn’t anything that expands people’s competence and social competence more than having that occur. This is also part of the problem with such things as trigger warnings and the protection of students, say, in the university environment, because you don’t want protection and safety. You want optimized challenge because that increases your competence. Yeah, no, I think that makes a great deal of sense. But you were going somewhere else before I took us in this direction. Why do you think you were resistant to that? Or why do you think that hadn’t occurred to you? Because you intimated that much when you were dealing with the anxiety problems that you had. Where do you think the inculcation of that idea that you had in some ways limited zero-sum resources? Where do you think that came from, that assumption? And how did you successfully challenge it? Well, I literally think that the reason I had that outlook is because the other thing hadn’t occurred to me. Okay? And that’s why, again, why I enjoy having these conversations. It frequently happens in my life that I will have a very strong opinion about something. Maybe I’ve thought about it for years, decades, and then someone will say something that it’s like, huh, hadn’t thought of that before. Let’s sort of play that out. So I think that was a big part of it. And I just think it was just sort of my mentality because stress and anxiety, that was who I was. Okay? You know, I was not walking into a stressful event. You know, it was just part of it. I would think about it, worry about it. And so when I outlined this in the book, the strategy that I came up with, actually there’s one other reason why I felt this, the strategy I came up with that I describe as think, think, think, worry, worry, worry, work, work, work. That basically that was my approach. If I wanted to get somewhere and there was a problem, I had to go after it. Okay? And I was supposed to be stressed. I was supposed to be worried. If I wasn’t stressed, if I wasn’t worried, then I wasn’t doing something important. All right? And that became mentality. And I think the biggest reason why I struggled to let go of that is, aside from the mental problems, I was spectacularly successful. Okay? I won a number of campaigns that were a number, let’s be fair. I won three campaigns that were extraordinarily difficult, but changed my life. All right? And I was able to succeed. You know, I have a happy marriage. I have, you know, a good relationship with my children. Knock on wood if you say that. Everything, you know, everything’s good. And I thought this is how I succeed. And if you’re going to come along and tell me that I got to do something different, I really felt like, you know, that would make it less likely that I would be successful. That, you know, yes, okay, maybe I wouldn’t be crazy. But I also, sorry, that’s a pejorative term, but maybe I wouldn’t have the anxiety problem. But I’d also wouldn’t, and I was so wrong about that. So it sounds to me like you had, you had fallen into the presumption, and correct me if I’ve got this wrong, that there was no difference between your laudable moral striving and being stressed. That stress was a marker that, right, right. And so, and so you had presumed that in order to actively cope and be successful, there was no respite from being overwhelmed by complexity and by, and being stressed. And what the therapist did for you, at least in part, was to lay out for you the fact that you could progress forward effectively without having to bear the burden of constant crippling stress. And that’s one of the biggest, yeah, it’s the biggest mess I want to try to get to people. I used to say it’s the stuff I don’t worry about that gets me in trouble. And I also used to like to say I believe in the power of negative thinking, which was, you know, if I worry, oh my gosh, what can go wrong? What can go wrong? You know, and, you know, and so that’s what I believed I had to do. When in fact there you can be every little bit as intense, every little bit is focused on getting a task done without having to feel physically stressed out. So what did you do specifically to start making changes in that direction? We talked a little bit about the utility of incremental progress. And this is obviously tied in to our broader discussion about facing ideas, say, on the political and conceptual front that challenge you. There is a very tight relationship between these things. But I’m very curious. You report in your book that you had an anxious temperament, were somewhat shy and introverted from a very early age. So it’s a deeply ingrained inside you that propensity for negative emotional response. How concretely? How was it that you changed the way you were approaching things that actually made a difference? And why do you think those changes were what made the difference? Yeah, it was ultimately a couple of things. Three and a half years worth of psychotherapy, which I’ll get into in a minute. Second, it was getting off with the various forms of medication that I had been on. But most importantly, the problem that I had is sort of a baseline. And this is incredibly important for psychology and psychiatry. There are three basic steps in my view to getting to good mental health. Number one was the one that I completely missed. And that is to have an inherent sense of your own self worth. This is what I didn’t grasp. I thought my self worth was was a measurable thing on a day in and day out basis. And by whatever measurement you want to come by, was I doing my job well? Was I a good husband? Was I a good father? Was I being responsible? Did I make a smart decision here? Did I do that? So every day I was trying to judge, how am I doing? When in fact an incredibly important concept in our psychology is it’s a Buddhist thing for the most part. We’re all worthy of love. We all have self worth. And that self worth is not dependent upon our deeds. And in the three and a half years with the psychotherapy was me arguing with my psychologist on this point. Because the biggest sticking point for me on this was, wait a second, you’re telling me it doesn’t matter what we do? Okay? That somebody who’s completely irresponsible, I’m a very responsible person. My wife and I have this in common. She’s the eldest of five children. And she fits that oldest child measurement quite well. We believe in meeting our responsibilities. So you’re telling me that if I don’t meet my responsibilities, if I don’t follow the rule of thumb, that I’m just as good as if I don’t? Of course that’s not actually what they’re telling you. All right? You should always, you can work to be better at things, but it’s not an existential threat. Right? Just because you make a mistake or do something wrong doesn’t mean that your basic self worth as a human being is out the window. I didn’t understand that. Okay? I was working my whole life every day to prove that I was worth. So having someone walk me through that and explain to me was the number one biggest thing. And then the second biggest thing in psychiatry is to really understand who you are. And I love this quote about psychotherapy, which I quote in my book, which is that the purpose of psychotherapy is not to correct the past. It is to help the patient understand his history and to grieve for what he has lost. I wanted to correct the past. And the very specific past I wanted to correct was my screwed up family. Okay? And there are families that are more screwed up than others, but I don’t walk through the whole story. I was adopted, you know, and it just fell apart by the time I was like 12 or 14. My older brother, you know, he had criminal problems, he had drug problems, he was off control. My parents were stressed out, and or depressed. My father died when I was 19. My mother died, you know, a few years after that. And it just felt like this complete epic failure. And then after all of that happened, my life, you know, I got elected to the state Senate. I met my wife, everything went fine. And I was like, okay, don’t have to worry about that anymore. When in fact, it was still bugging me. Okay, it was bugging me both in terms of, you know, why didn’t my family do a better job of handling this? And then crucially, it was also bugging me from the standpoint of if I’m holding myself out as a leader in the community, you know, as someone who gets things done and all these other positive things, you know, about my career, the hell did I do about that? The whole thing fell apart while I was there. Okay. And I never really resolved that. So we talked through that and that helped resolve that. That’s a big thing now in, well, with PTSD and other things. You have to be able to resolve issues in your past. And some of it is traumatic. We’re talking real trauma. But even if it’s not trauma in the classic sense of the word, things that have really bugged you, bring them out in the open, deal with them. And that can dramatically reduce anxiety and depression. And there’s a variety of different therapies now. EMDR, there’s a new thing that they’re working with in the military in particular. And I hope I get the initials right. ETM, which is another way of sort of rewiring your brain through conversation to look at these events in your life in a different way. So those are the two big things. The biggest problem we have in psychology in America, and I don’t want to take us too far down this road. If you have political things you want to talk about and happy to answer them, is we start with cognitive behavioral therapy. And to my mind, probably 90 percent of the time, that’s a mistake. That’s what they did with me. That’s why I cycled through so many psychiatrists and psychologists. And cognitive behavioral therapy is important. You need to figure out how to better process things coming in and understand exactly what it is you’re worried about or depressed about, how to handle it. But if you don’t deal with those two baseline things first, cognitive behavioral therapy is just going to piss you off. All right, because it’s not going to seem like it’s working. The analogy I came up with just a couple of days ago, it’s like if you break your leg, you can say physical therapy is important and it’s going to be important. But if you don’t set the leg first, OK, and then tell someone, OK, start doing these exercises, it’s not going to work very well. So I just don’t think we have that order correct. So you were suffering by your own admission from a very fundamental theological dilemma, I would say. And so you could imagine that there are ways of justifying your miserable existence, so to speak. And one would be justification through works. And that is the proclivity that conscientious people have, conscientious and responsible people, which is that they derive their sense of worth from an evaluation of their continued contributions. And as you said, there’s some real utility in that because you should be responsible and generous productivity is laudable. And it’s reasonable to observe how you’re doing in that regard and to evaluate yourself to some degree on that basis. But if that’s all there is, then you are missing another important theological presupposition. And I’m speaking about those as fundamental presuppositions akin to setting your leg before you start worrying about physiotherapy is that there is an axiomatic presupposition that underlies the ethical corpus of the West that every person is made in the image of God and has intrinsic worth. And that means that if you think about those as balanced, you could say, well, of course I should strive forward and make the appropriate sacrifices and be useful to myself and my community. But underneath that, this is probably what’s provided, by the way, in the final analysis by the proper kind of maternal love, you know, that kind of all encompassing love is that regardless of your flaws, you have you have an intrinsic worth that’s inviolable that you can always return to as a as a source of what replenishment and self confidence, right? That sense of intrinsic worth. And, you know, if you don’t, the interesting thing, too, is that if you don’t apply that to yourself, it’s also very difficult to apply it to other people. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And that’s where I cross crossover into public policy. Okay. That’s, you know, and I make that point at the end of my book exactly is, you know, what really helps cure you as well as everyone else. Yes, you have self worth. But think about that. That means everybody else does, too. Even the person who’s from the different political party. If you’re pro choice, even the person who’s pro life. Okay. Whatever the issue. And if you believe that it makes our society get together better. And frankly, that’s, you know, you asked why I want to do this interview. Certainly, I find you very smart. I love intellectual conversation. Just in general, you have a good following. It gives me an opportunity to get an audience. But I think one thing in particular about what you teach that I think is so important that really has come to me as I’ve looked at the broader mental health issues is the idea of getting better. And that that needs to be the focus because a lot of people talk about the stigma around mental health. And I’ve had a lot of interviews about that. I think that is important. We’re getting better on that. We’re more willing to talk about it. But there still is a stigma that will stop people from wanting to seek treatment. But the other piece of it is if all we’re doing is talking about mental health problems, if all we’re doing in essence is wallowing in it and saying, okay, now I have something identifiable for why I’m so hopelessly screwed up or just sort of voyeuristically looking at it. What really gets me going, as you can see, is what I learned throughout this process about how you can get better. And I think your basic point, I watched a video. I can’t move some title. Anyways, the basic point of every day, try to make yourself better and that will make you happier and you will get better. And there’s a bunch of different ways to balance it. But I worry too that in America, a lot of it on mental health has become like I said, this is why I messed up. OK, so no, this is a diagnosis so that you can get better. And I think a lot of the messages you talk about start small. OK, you know, you’re not going to solve the world’s problems. Don’t compare yourself to other people. Compare yourself to yourself and what you want to be and what you want to do. But work to get better. I think it’s such a crucial message for the mental health of society. Well, it’s especially one of the things that was really, really gratifying about working as a psychotherapist was watching what happened when people did begin to take incremental steps forward. And it was often an exercise in like a painful humility, you know, because if you’re weak in an area, when you start moving forward, you have to take very small steps. And it’s a humbling experience often to grapple with the fact that the only thing you’re capable of doing is that tiny step forward. You know, something absurd. If I counseled my clients, for example, to work on maybe I’d have a client who was 30 and still lived in his parents in the bedroom he was in in high school. And it was a complete bloody mess because he’d never done anything to keep it orderly in his whole life. And he’s 30, you know, and so there’s an element of that that’s pretty damn pathetic. And we’d have to struggle to find the level at which he could grapple with that problem. And so the injunction, go clean up your room and come back next week to the therapy session and tell me it’s done was completely useless because it might have been that he was only capable because that because there was a big problem of lurking dependency there of cleaning up half his sock drawer. And to realize that that’s the best you can do is pretty damn humbling. But the upside and this is what’s so cool. This is part of the Matthew principle, right? To those who have everything more will be given is that once you start improving that improvement accelerates geometrically, not linearly. And so even if you have to start with virtually nothing, that doesn’t mean that you won’t accelerate extraordinarily rapidly. And that’s so fun. It’s so fun to help people do that because they take these tiny steps forward in humility, let’s say, and then very rapidly there. They’re the length of step they can take. Lengthens remarkably. Well, and that’s and that’s, you know, going back to our equity and equality conversation. That’s something that I’ve always passionately believed in. And this is one of the downsides of sort of the American meritocracy thing. OK, and we’re wrestling this with this now is, you know, we’ve gotten rid of affirmative action or any sort of race based stuff in colleges based on the Supreme Court. Now everyone’s looking at, well, what about legacies? You know, what about the guy who plays badminton? And now he gets in is I do think in America you can go too far in this whole meritocracy thing. You know, if you have stuff, that means you’re better. OK, well, maybe and maybe not. Number one. Number two. And I believe this. Everybody is capable of doing better. OK. And throughout my life, you know, I didn’t go to Ivy League school. I grew up in a very blue collar neighborhood. Those, you know, and I see my friends from that neighborhood who have gone on and done some pretty cool things with their life. All right. And I think too often in America, we’re like we’re trying constantly trying to call the top. OK. You know, it’s like, oh, this guy’s the best. You know, he got sixteen hundred in the SAT. It’s like and I think one of the things that motivated me, I had a three two in high school and eleven of eleven ninety on the SAT. As a matter of fact, figuring out how to beat those people who got a sixteen hundred in the SAT brings me an enormous amount of joy. OK. And I’ve done it throughout my life. You know, and so when I see other people, people, oh, gosh, you know, he’s not that smart. You know, he’s going didn’t go to college, whatever. It’s like, no, if you really see people, all right, and work with them, what they’re capable of is incredible. And so I get frustrated with both the right and the left on this. I get frustrated with the left that sees people like this and says, oh, you know, you have to be really care of this person. They can’t really do anything and you can’t put any pressure on them. You know, I just that’s not my experience. And then on the right, when it’s like, well, that person doesn’t deserve to be here, you know, they haven’t done this, they haven’t done that, they haven’t gotten the scores. Let’s just give a little bit here and we’ll see what folks are capable of. And that’s what I really, really want to deliver. And it’s been my experience in life is, you know, help people. It’s funny, you know, that in some ways it was your proclivity to engage in that kind of, let’s say, right wing meritocratic thinking that was actually contributing in no small part to the acceleration of your anxiety. It’s so interesting to see that given that, you know, you are a figure. I hadn’t thought of that before, but yes. Well, yeah, well, and I mean, that is the problem with a strict and narrowly defined meritocracy is that it privileges being over becoming. That’s a good way of thinking about it. And, you know, when you were talking about the 1190 SAT, you know, one of the things, there’s no doubt that intellectual prowess as measured by such tests is a deadly accurate predictor of long term success. It leaves about three quarters of the success domain unaccounted for, by the way. But it is also the case that vision and hard work can go an awful long way to redressing that difference in, say, initial starting point. And so when that is something. I do want to give you what I happen to be reading a Malcolm Gladwell article. And this is probably his book of essays. So it’s probably 20 years ago when he wrote it. But in this gets back into some of the racial issues that we face. He was attempting to explain the difference between panicking and choking, which is not terribly relevant here. But one of the things he analyzed was Stanford did a study. I forget when it was that they did this, where they gave the same test with two different explanations. The first time they gave the test, they said, this is an IQ test. This is to measure how smart you are, basically, how capable you are. And when they gave that test, they gave it to black students and white students. The white students performed significantly better than the black students. But when they gave the same test and said, this is a survey, it isn’t measuring anything, we just want to know how you respond to these questions, they performed at the exact same level. And the reason they surmised was because of a lot of the stigma in society, the reputation. Oh, you know, black students can’t do well on standardized tests that the black students felt a lot more pressure. They’re like, oh, my gosh, this is something I’m not good at. So I better figure this out. And they and I always get the panicking choking thing mixed up there. One of them is thinking too much. The other one is just choking. Choking is when you think too much. Panicking is when you stop thinking altogether. And they kind of kind of choke because they’re like, OK, I got to think through this. I got to be, you know, and that’s just not the right way to take that test. And it shows both that, you know, this notion of inherent capability one way or the other is ridiculous. Number one and number two, we have a long way to go to overcome some of the racial stereotypes in both directions to move towards a more equitable society, if you’ll forgive me using that word. Well, your criticisms earlier about the conservative side of things, I think are apropos there too, is that one of the ways that we overcome the built in inadequacies of the current system is to provide people with a vision. And one of the things that the left has done much more effectively than the right is to provide a vision of equality and harmony and movement towards something approximating a utopia. Whereas the right’s vision is generally something like less of less interference is better. And there’s some truth in that, but it’s not a vision, right? It’s the absence of a set of constraints. And it would be lovely to see the left and the right engage in the kind of dialogue that would produce a compelling vision that both sides could could engage in. I want to close because we have to close this side of the conversation fairly soon. I want to close with one more political question, if you don’t mind. Sure. It’s been very interesting to me to see the response by the two frontrunners in the 2024 presidential campaign respond to the possibility of engaging in debate. I mean, Biden has, as far as I know, has indicated quite clearly that he’s not going to participate in any primary debates. And now we have Trump making exactly the same statement on the Republican side. And to me, first of all, this, I think this is very bad. I think it’s cowardly on both their parts. And I think it’s also a huge mistake because leaders should model that, right? If you’re a leader, if you’re a genuine leader and you can listen and you can negotiate, you should model that for your people on the stage. And so I think it’s a missed opportunity. And I think it’s a form of instrumental behavior as well, because both Biden and Trump are assuming, well, we’re the frontrunners and we have nothing except loss on the debate side. And, you know, that’s not a position that’s associated, in my estimation, with confidence and authority, because the proper attitude should be, well, number one, the people deserve to hear us put our ideas forward. And to have them challenged, period. And number two, well, if you’re the guy, well, why not take the opportunity to indicate that? And so what do you think about the fact that, you know, the two frontrunners have dropped out of the debate? They’ve foregone the debate opportunities. Well, I have multiple thoughts about that, as I alluded to earlier. It’s always been my philosophy. Let’s engage. And I’m never afraid of engaging anywhere, anytime, asking whatever question comes at me. I mean, I was doing a forum at the Brookings Institute talking about, I think it was Ukraine specifically, and the Code Pink people stormed the stage and tried to shut it down. This woman’s yelling and asking a question. And I just said, you know, actually, I think that’s a really good question. I’d love to have the conversation, which, of course, she did not want to have. But so I think in general, engage, all right, as much as you possibly can. And number two, from a political standpoint, I’m a huge sports fan, so I tend to use sports analogies. We’ve gotten almost through this entire interview without me using one. But, you know, if you’re ahead and you’re playing not to lose, you’re losing. That’s always been my philosophy. You know, you’ve got a play to win every second, every play. It’s funny. I think my wife could hear this, but it’s the way I watch baseball. And she’s like, my gosh, you would think this was the World Series. It’s one inning and one game. And I’m like, you know, and I’m focused on it. All right. Because I just think, you know, you’ve got to try to be doing your best at every second. You get ahead and think you’re going to hold on. And I can’t exactly explain it, but I’ve played enough, you know, games in my life to know psychologically, once you get to that place where you’re trying to hold on instead of trying to win, you’re vulnerable. So you don’t want to be there. Or trying to improve or trying to improve, right? Because, well, the thing is, you think about what’s happened psychologically. Here’s what’s happened is you shifted into a defensive stance. Exactly. And that means all challenge will now be experienced as stress. Now, if you reverse that and say, of course, I’ll take the opportunity to debate, then you’re taking on the challenge voluntarily. And that produces an entirely different set of not only psychophysiological responses, because it’s a challenge rather than a threat, but it also broadcasts a kind of confidence in your own ability to progress. That’s part and parcel of being willing to engage. It’s a much better measure. It’s a much better indication of leadership that concretely, right? Merely the willingness to get into the fray. So I did today. Yes, exactly. So I do think the other part of it, though, that I spent a long time wondering about, I try to be careful about this, but speaking is something that I’m good at. It’s my whole life. I’ve been able to articulate ideas in a comfortable and effective way. And I think that is an important part of leadership. But then, and this is my egalitarian side, I guess, what makes me more on the left side of the political spectrum, I’m like, well, is it really the case if you just happen to not be that articulate that you’re necessarily a worse leader? Okay, is that the case? You know, maybe you’ve got the ideas. Maybe you’re good in a crisis. You work with a team and do all that. But standing up and giving a speech, not the thing you’re best at. And I’ve certainly worked with colleagues, by the way, who in a million years, I wouldn’t want to be sitting on the floor listening to them give a speech. But I know there’s someone that I can count on. I know that they’re going to do the work. They know the issues. They’ll work together. So is a public debate really the one way to figure out who’s going to best lead a community? I think we fall a little bit in love with that idea. I always think of a quote that Dennis Miller had about Michael Dukakis, about how Michael Dukakis never really had a chance because he lacked that superficial charisma that we seem to look for in our leaders. You know, so I’m mindful of that as well. I think people place too much emphasis on the debates. So all that said, I still think they should do it. I guess the final criticism I have is the debate. The debate formats are difficult. This conversation between you and I is dependent upon both of us being reasonable with the other person. You know, yeah, I’m not going to talk over you. You’re not going to talk if you have a question, you’ll interject it. But you do it in a polite and respectful way. You know, you look at the debate that Trump and Biden had, the first one, when, you know, I mean, is that really useful when there’s no construct? And then they said, well, you got one minute, one minute, and then you’re done. Well, OK, how informative is that? All right. When I loved chairing the Armed Services Committee because I tried to run it in a fair way. All right. I would include people in the conversation and not everyone got the same amount of time all the time, because that’s that’s not how you have a good conversation. You need a moderator who’s honestly trying to make sure that we get the issues out in a fair and balanced way. And I guess I would. Is that possible in today’s era? Is it possible to do that in a way that the two candidates aren’t just going to be shouting over each other in an unproductive way? I don’t know. Well, you know, I’m really I’m really hopeful. With regards to political communication on the long form, with regards to long term format podcasts, because they give people the opportunity to speak in an unscripted manner, relatively deeply, spontaneously. Right. Which which is a good way of detecting both ability and the proclivity to to deceive and to deepen the political conversation. And, you know, we had these terrible restrictions on broadcast accessibility that were part and parcel of the legacy TV environment. But that’s all gone. And so now there’s no reason even for debates. You know, there’s there would be no reason whatsoever not to hold a forum of this sort with a variety of different candidates and actually have a conversation. Because you don’t have to. The thing about debates is they’re very time limited and structured. And you can see why that’s necessary when television bandwidth is hyper expensive. But in some ways, there’s no reason for that anymore. Anyways, we should stop. I’m going to for everybody watching and listening, I’m going to continue talking to Congressman Smith on the daily wire side. And we’ll do what I usually do there and delve into issues that are more autobiographical. I think that’s particularly germane in this case because of Congressman Smith’s new book, Lost and Broken, My Journey Back from Chronic Pain and Crippling Anxiety. We’re going to talk about that in some more detail on the daily word plus side. Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me. Hopefully that’ll set a trend on the Democrat side. I guess we’ll find out or at least somewhat of a trend, because it would be lovely to be able to have discussions that reach across the aisle and and to attempt to reverse some of this terrible proclivity towards polarization that really threatens the integrity, I would say, of the West, the integrity of the U.S., the integrity of the West more broadly. So it’s much appreciated for everyone watching and listening. Please join us on the daily word plus side for an additional half an hour. And thank you to the daily word plus for making this conversation possible. Pleasure to talk to you, sir. Likewise, I appreciate the chance. Thank you.