https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=na8aDYS8XXw
I’ve read all your books and I even read some of your peer-reviewed work because when I was going to speak to you then I said, you know, I’m going to do my homework. So I read everything. One of the things that you said one time in the Maps of Meaning, you started off the book by saying, when you were a young lad, I don’t know how young you were, you said that you found the doctrines of Christianity incomprehensible and absurd. And you also said that you had some kind of issue with Christianity because of the Genesis narrative and how incongruent it was with scientific narratives. You went to a pastor, you said, or a church cleric or something and then you left the church. Now I’ve got a question. Do you still have the same position or have you changed your position? Well, I’ve changed my position a lot. I was only 13 then, you know. I was caught up in the battle, insofar it was manifested in me when I was 13. I was caught in the battle between enlightenment rationality and traditional narrative belief. I had no idea how to reconcile those two things. Do you feel like you can do that now? I’m doing my best to reconcile. So let me be more specific. Yes, and I think, well, I certainly can do it a lot more than I did when I was 13. Let me give you an example, right? At this point, when you were 13, I think you were thinking straight. I’m sorry to be very straight. It’s hard to believe that someone is disagreeable with you as you would manage that. Because someone with an IQ of 180, whatever you have, someone of your intelligence, when you were 13, you probably had an IQ of, I don’t know, 120 or something. So you were operating like my friend over here, Ali Dawai, on his level, at the age of 13. But what I was going to say was that, you know, the reason why I think you were saying, because look at the Trinity, for example, look at the schisms. Now this goes to your specialism, that the idea of three all-powerful entities, that Jesus is all-powerful, that the Father is all-powerful, the Son is all-powerful, and the Holy Spirit is all-powerful, but there’s not three all-powerfuls, there’s one all-powerful. You have one ultimately willing being, which is a person, which is Jesus, and another person, which is ultimately willing, which is the Son. The Quran states about this, it says, In chapter 23 verse number 91, it says that, Allah has not taken any son, and He did not have any creator with Him. Had that been the case, they would have stripped one another for what? They would have competed and tried to outstrip one another for power. Meaning this idea of three all-powerful persons is unintelligible, the idea that Jesus Christ exhibits two natures, I know that there are schisms and there’s a difference of opinion among Christians, but the fact that you have this human nature, where Jesus is walking and He sees the tree and He can’t eat from the tree, He doesn’t know that the tree is in season or not, or that He doesn’t know when the hour is, or whatever it may be, the Quran says it very clearly, Him and His mom used to eat food. This proposition that they’re limited and unlimited at the same time is a contradiction. It’s an affront to logic. This will cause you cognitive dissonance, because if you want to be a rational actor, and you want to be- See, that’s the thing. I don’t want to be a rational actor. But you do when you do your scientific experiments. That’s true. So why do you separate the two things? Because rationality should be subordinated to something above it, and I’m trying to subordinate myself to that. The Bible is a root of wisdom, inspiration, and spiritual nourishment. The Hallow app empowers you to explore the Bible’s profound teachings and to effortlessly incorporate them into your daily life. A great place to start while you deepen your understanding of the Bible is to check out Father Mike Schmitz’s Bible in a Year, available on the Hallow app exclusively for brief daily readings and reflections. Here you can dive into an extensive library of Bible reading plans accompanied by insightful reflections and audio-guided meditations. Whether you’re a seasoned Bible reader or just starting your journey, Hallow provides a platform for you to engage with scripture like never before. Studying the Bible’s literary brilliance has influenced countless writers, poets, and artists throughout history. By studying the Bible yourself, you’ll gain a deeper appreciation for the power of storytelling, symbolism, and metaphor, enriching your understanding of literature across different genres. The Hallow app also helps you connect with a community of like-minded individuals sharing experiences, insights, and encouragement along the path to spiritual growth. Download the app for free at Hallow.com slash Jordan. You can set reminders and track your progress along the way. Enrich your education and nurture your mind and soul today. Download the Hallow app at Hallow.com slash Jordan. That’s Hallow.com slash Jordan for an exclusive free month free trial of all 6,000 plus prayers and meditations. And so my reaction to what you’re saying is that it’s an in this isn’t an insult. I’m telling you what my reaction is. Please say. It’s not even a criticism. I find the discussion, that discussion, as soon as it started, I found that less interesting than what we were doing before. It was harder for me to focus on and I think the reason for that is that it transforms to some and I’m not saying this isn’t necessary at sometimes but it transforms the transcendent into something like an intellectual and propositional discussion and so in some sense we’re debating perhaps not the fine points of theology because they’re more like the blunt points of theology but there’s something about that that there’s something about that that isn’t what I want to do with you. Yes. You know and it isn’t that it’s not necessary. So let me flip it around to some degree. So one of the things I’m very curious about is obviously the figure of Christ is contentious and so the Jews don’t know what to make of Christ in some fundamental sense because he seems like the last he seems like and what would you a continuation of the prophetic tradition in some real sense plus he was Jewish so that makes things complicated and then of course the Christians put the figure of Christ as as central in some real sense but that begs the question of the relationship between Christ and God and then in the Muslim community Christ is also a central figure and so I’m curious about that and we could say we have doctrinal differences about what constitutes that centrality it’s like fair enough and I would also not say that I understand what that centrality means like so one of the ways I would understand that let’s say is that in in the western tradition I don’t know to what degree this is true in the Muslim tradition one of the attributes of what Christ is psychologically is the logos and so if we’re engaged in dialogue which is dual logos then we’re embodying the spirit of something like mutual enlightenment and that’s then the presence of that spirit in the genuine confines of temporal reality right it’s something like the infinite descending to the finite to illuminate us and to the degree that we can have a dialogue in good faith which is also a religious notion then we can engage in that process of dialogos and that transforms and redeems us and then when I say well do I believe that I say well it isn’t just that I believe it as a proposition it’s that I can tell when it’s happening and so can you I think it’s like you’re going to see that this conversation will ebb and flow you know and some of the time it’s going to grip you you think we’re at the heart of the matter and sometimes your attention is going to wander it your attention is going to wander when we’re off the path and so I would say that yes to the degree that you and I are communicating this is a religious way of thinking about it is that we’re doing our best to embody the spirit of the logos and if that’s working then we’re making progress and I know that in the western tradition that’s part of what has been conceptualized as the fundamental attribute of of the figure of christ and I know that christ is central in the muslim tradition and so one of the things I would want to know is not how we differ doctrinally yeah because I don’t even think I’m qualified to debate you on that case but we’ve got the guy here well john might have some things to say but but what I would like to to know instead is why do you believe that the figure of christ is central in some sense or maybe I’ve got that wrong although I don’t think so why do you think the figure of christ is central both to the muslim faith and the christian faith and what do you think that says about what we share in common because I really don’t understand that it’s a mystery to me okay so jesus christ if secular historians will look at him and differ on his existence or not the majority to be fair do believe he existed right the even secular historians atheists and agnostics and whatever it may be right it’s the simplest explanation yeah it’s a simple of course yeah so I believe that first of all jesus christ existed which in the modern age is worth noting right muslims actually but muslims are the only other major world religion who believe in what jesus christ as the messiah as the prophet right he had the virgin birth this is a strange thing so we should definitely be trying to sort that out