How did you learn to use computers? I was always adept in that. You were? My dad, when we were in Panama City, one of the Christmases, so my dad, we moved to Panama City. The only job the man could get was at a 7-Eleven as a midnight clerk. That Christmas, he gave me and Denise 70apiece.That′sallhecouldaffordforthat.Hesurprisedme.TherewasthisTexasInstruments,theyhadapersonalcomputerdivision,theyweregoingoutofbusiness.ThismangoesandwaitstwohoursinlinetogetthisTI−99−4A.Ohyeah.Whatyearisthat?Geez,thiswouldhavebeen79.Oh,okay.Thatwasveryearly.Itwasearly.Right,becausecomputersreallydidn′tbecomewidespreaduntilabout83,84.Eventhatwasreallyearly.Right.Youhadoneveryearly.Yeah,anditwasglorifiedvideogames.Yeah,butyou′reinthegameatthatpoint.You′reinit,you′reprogramming,you′retypinginallthelinesofcodeandeverything,soyoucanplaythatgamefor10minutes.Fromthere,itjustkindoftookme.Sure,sure.Butyou′vegottounderstandthatalotofcrimeonlineisnotreallybeingadeptatcomputers.It′sbeingadeptatfraud.Right,butthecomputerwasn′tanimpediment.Right,itwasnot.Itwasnot.Okay,sowhatdoyoustartdoingonline?Startlookingaround.Yousaidporn.Yeah,Iwaspartofthat351,500 on eBay. So go around, the next day I skipped my classes, go around all the little stores. It takes me about three hours to figure out, no, no, he’s not in a store. He’s on eBay for 1,500.Right,they′dalreadybeenwellscavenged.Exactly,exactly.SoIwasalwaystheguythatdidresearch.IgohomeandIstartresearching,okay,whatdoyouhavetosend?Ifyoudon′tsendaniteminthemail,cantheyarrestyouforthat?That′swhatIwaslike.Turnsouttheycan.SoIwaslike,sohowdoyougetaroundthat?Well,itturnsoutthattheyhadtheselittlegrayBeanieBabyElephants,straydollars.Boughtoneofthose,stoppedbyaKrogeronthewayhome,pickedupapackofblueripdye.Ohyeah.Well,don′tdyetheguy.Iwaslike,youknow,Icantelltheladyofnothingelsethatdamagedandshipping,somethinglikethat,becausetheywereexactlythesameexceptforthecolor.SoputapictureofarealoneoneBay.Shewinsthebusiness.Howmuchliketherealonedidtheylook?Itlookedlikeithadthemangewhenyougotit.Soit′smadeoutofpolyester.Right.Soit′shardtodye.Yeah,youcan′tdyeit.Right.Itneedstobesplotchyandeverything.It′swetandeverythingelse.AndIwaslike,youknow,whatwillhappenisshe′llgetitinthemail.She′llseethatit′sbeenwetandeverything.She′llthinkitwasdamagedandshipping.Icanclaimthatifnothingelse.Sodyedthething,sentitouttoher,gotacallassoonasshegetsit.ButbeforeIsentitouttoher,Iwaslike,hey,IwanttomakesureIgetmymoney.Sendheramessage.Thisisasocialengineeringthingagain,becauseIdon′twanttobeonthedefenseofthisconversation.Iwantheronthedefensive.Iwanthertohavetoestablishtrustwithme,notmewithher.SoIsentheramessage.Hey,congratulations.Youwinthebid.We′veneverdoneanybusinessbefore.Idon′tknowifIcantrustyou.WhatIneedyoutodoisgodowntotheUSPostalService,pickupacoupleofmoneyorders,totaling1,500. Send those to me. I’ll send you your animal. She believed that. Sends me the money orders. The reason I wanted that is you can’t cancel. So sends me money orders. I cash them out. Send her this thing in the mail. Get a phone call. Did not order this. My exact response, you ordered a blue elephant. I sent you a blue-ish elephant. And I kept putting her off. I kept saying, yeah, I’ll send you the money back. I’ll send you the money back. What you find out, and that’s one of the things I teach in classes these days, is that’s the first lesson of cyber crime. You delay that victim. You just keep putting them off. A lot of them, they get exasperated, throw their hands in the air, walk away. You don’t hear from them, and they don’t call law enforcement. So it’s the first online crime I committed right there. Why don’t they call law enforcement? Embarrassment. Okay. So think about it. Well, and it’s trouble. It’s also trouble to call the cops. It’s not nothing. And I know the reasons today. So it’s embarrassment of the victims. It’s who do you complain to? Do you complain to the Kentucky State Police? Do you complain to the Sheriff’s Office? Do you complain to the state where you bought it from? Legal ambiguity. So there’s a lot of jurisdictional issues at the same time. At a lot of the time, the law enforcement, when you walk into a police station, they don’t want to hear it. Right. Were you stupid enough to fall for a scam like that? There’s a lot of the response from law enforcement. Right. That’s a foolish response. It is. Because the people who are scamming are likely doing other things. Right. Yeah. Plus, if you let those small things go, as we’ve already discussed, they don’t stay small for long. They don’t. Because criminals are also ambitious. What’s that broken windows policy? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It works. Definitely that. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you’re putting her off, and you’ve got your 1,500.Okay.Thenwhathappens?Well,whathappensisIcontinuewithlittleeBayscamsundermyownname,butIstartgettingbetterbecauseIstarttorealizethat,hey,thesepeoplearecallingmeandcomplainingaboutthisstuff.Right.SoIstart−Itseemslikeanunnecessaryamountoftrouble.Veryunnecessary.Butremember,I′vegotthathistoryandidentitytheftatthesametime.Right.SowhatIstartdoingisItransitionoverintopiratedsoftware.Piratedsoftware,inordertoplaylikepiratedvideogames,backthenyouhadtohaveamodchipthatwassolderedontothecircuitboardofthegamingsystem.SoIstartedtodothat.Thatopenedupthedoor.Okay,dowhat?Exactly.Soyou′dgetthislittlecircuitchip,andyou′dcrackopenthePlayStation1ortheSegaSaturnortheNewcastle.You′dfindoutwhereonthecircuitboardyouhadtosolderthatchip,andyou′dsolderthechiponthere,andthatwouldallowyoutoplaythepressedorthe−Thefalsegame.TherippedCDsthatyouhadthegameson.Oh,yes.Okay.Sothatwoulddothat.SoIstartedtodoprogrammingsatelliteDSScards.SotheRCA18−inchsatellitesystems,youcanpulltheaccesscardoutofit,programit,turnonthechannels.Starteddoingthat.Howdidyoulearntodothesethings?Readitonlineonforums.Thisisnotcomplicatedstuffatall.Allright.Sothesoldering,IlearnedworkingatLexmark.Sothattooltranslatedverywelltothat.Thepiratedsoftwareledinto,whatgotmeontherewasIwasdoingpornonline,andsomeofthesiteshadbanneradswherepeoplediscussingpiratedsoftware.Sothatledintogettingthecontextforthepiratedsoftware,whichthenledintomodchips.ThemodchipforumsstartedtotalkaboutRCAsatellitesystems.Sothisisthebeginningsofacriminalnetworkemergingonline,essentially.AndthenwhathappensisaCanadianjudge,heactuallyrulesincourt.Hewaslike,sinceRCAdoesn′tsellthesystemsuphere,mycitizenscanpiratethesignals.Oh,yeah.Thankyou,Canada.Yeah.SowhathappensisyougodowntoBestBuy,youbuythesystemfor100, take it out, throw the system away, take the access card, program it, ship it to Canada, 500apop.Oh,yeah.Oh,that′sagooddeal.Gooddeal.Sostarteddoingthat.Andthat′slegaltoo,eh?That′slegal.Well,it′sgreat.Yeah,okay.Soit′slegalinCanada,butit′snotlegaltodoitintheUnitedStatesandshipittoCanada.Isee.Isee.Okay.Sostarteddoingthat.AlsorelativelylowprobabilityofgettingcaughtbecauseyourCanadianpeoplearenotgoingtobeunhappy.Sostartedtodothat.AndatthesametimeiswhenPayPalcomesintofruition.Andbackthen,PayPal...Howmuchmoneyareyoumakingwiththechipthing?4,000 a week. Oh, yeah. And that’s in 2000? This was 96. Okay, so you’re doing pretty well. Pretty well at that point. Yeah. All right. It became a problem trying to find enough access cards for the orders. That’s sad. That’s pretty sad. That’s an issue. So what I was like, I was like, hell, they’re in Canada. Who are they going to complain to if I don’t send them anything? Oh, yeah. So started doing that, stole even more money, got worried about how much was coming in, and wanted a fake driver’s license. Now, I knew how to do identity theft. I didn’t know how to make fake driver’s licenses. So figured I could get a fake ID, use that to open a bank account, funnel the money through the account, cash out the ATM. Didn’t know where to get one. That university didn’t know where to get one. So I got online, started looking around, found a guy, sent him 200inmypicture,andheripsmeoff.Oh,yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.AndIgotreallyangryatthat.Youshouldhavethoughtthatwasfunny,really.Youknow,todayIdo.Ido.Todayit′sallkarma.BackthenIwasjustmad.Yeah.Well,that′sablowtoyourego.Itis.Definitely.ButIstillneededtheID.Socontinuedtosearchforthisthing.TheonlyavenueyouhadbackthentocommitcrimeonlinewasIRC,internet−relatedchat,rollingchatboard.Hadnoideawhoyouweretalkingto,ifyoucouldtrustthem,iftheyhadsomethingforsale,iftheyactuallyhadit,oriftheywerejustgoingtoripyouoff.Soyoucouldn′tusethatnetwork.TheonlyrealwebsiteatthatpointintimewascalledCounterfeitLibrary.Andtheonlythingitdealtinwascounterfeitdegreesandcertificates.Buttheyhadaforumsectionattachedtoit.Sobecausethatwastherealonlyplatformoutthere,Istartedgoingtothatforumeverysingledayandcomplainingaboutgettingrippedoff.That′sallIdo.I′mbitchingaboutthat.AboutgettingrippedofffortheID?Yeah.BecauseI′mlookingforthisID.SoI′mcomplainingaboutgettingrippedoffandIstillneedthisID.Sowhathappensis,becausethat′sreallytheonlytrustworthyplatformthat′soutthereatthepoint,youstarthavingtheseotherpeoplecomingintothisforumaswell.Iendeduppartneringwithtwootherpeople.AguyfromMoosejaw,Saskatchewan,aguyfromLA.TheMoosejawguy.Moosejaw,thisinternationalcrime−Exactly,right?Moosejaw.SoMoosejaw,heactuallymadefakeIDs.SohegetsmeonedayonICQandhe′slike,hey,Icanmakeyouafiguredriver′slicense.Iwaslike,we′llmakeit.He′slike,no,I′mgoingtochargeyou200. I’m like, yeah, like shit you are. Well, by this point in time, I’m friends with the people who actually own the website. We’re shooting emails at each other and everything else. I’m like, I’ll tell you what, I’m going to send you 200.Thatwaywhenyouripmeoff,IcanhaveyoubannedfromhereandIdon′thavetoworryaboutyouanymore.He′slike,bet.Iwaslike,okay.Sosendhimmypicture,sendhim200. Two weeks later, I get a fake driver’s license. Is it a good one? Well, I thought it was. Looking back, it wasn’t. But at that point in time, it was good enough to go to a bank. Right, it was good enough. It was good enough cash checks with. And it was in a real name as well. So what happens is, is he went by the screen name of Bielzabub. Oh God. Yeah. That bloody well figures. You know, one of the things I’ve.