What does reason feel like？ - empathy circle dialogos about the embodied experience of reason (ffsbT94t6Lo)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=ffsbT94t6Lo

Okay, welcome everyone to our empathy circle we’re doing an empathy circle on the topic of what does reason feel like or whatever is life for you. We’re just going to go around and start with introductions maybe I’ll just start with that I’m Edwin Rutch, director of the Center for Building a Culture of Empathy and been working for quite a while on how do we create a more empathic society, and one of the methods we use is this empathy circle process so. So we’re going to be doing that, and for the next two hours. So we’re just going to go around and introduce ourselves john do you want to just. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here again. Hi everyone so I’m john brovecki I’m an associate professor of cognitive psychology and cognitive science at the University of Toronto. I also have the author of a bunch of series, perhaps one, you might have seen as awakening for the meeting crisis. And I do a lot of work around building ecologies of practices, generating the relevant and supportive cognitive scientific theory, and also doing community building and the building networks of communities, and, and Nathan is helping me with that. And so I’m glad to be here with him. Great thanks, Cheryl. Next. Hi, my name is Cheryl shoe, and I was thrilled to be here at my first ever empathy circle. Empathy and reason are both subject matters that are near and dear to the heart. I come from a background as a systemic designer. So, I did a master’s degree in strategic foresight and innovation, and have been doing a lot of work around bringing together different stakeholders across social systems, healthcare food systems, health, housing, as well. And about a year and a half ago, really had a moment of needing to question all of the approaches and methodologies and paradigms with which we were seeking solutions to the problems that we were facing. So since then I’ve been somewhat on an independent research journey. And something I’ve been calling a soul directed masters, and really looking at what does it mean for us to design with mystery. Hey, thank you, Nathan. Yeah, I’m Nathan van der Poel I’m based in Berlin, I’m have a lot of different academic backgrounds but currently I’m working with john and trying to put together a network called respond. And we’re working on this project, of which Edwin is also a pirate. And yeah, that’s, maybe I could say some more or we could just jump in within the empty circle we’ll be able to talk about all that so I want to get into it as soon as as soon as possible So, yeah, so I just may give a quick intro how the empathy circle works for anyone that’s watching this you can go to empathy circle calm and there’s an extensive explanation of how the process works. But this, we’re doing the empathy circle is one person is the speaker, and then one person is an active listener and the other participants are silent listeners so one person will be the speaker they’ll select you they speak to you’ll speak on the topic, and then you’ll share an idea or two, and then pause and let the listener reflect back their understanding in your own words what you heard the speaker say, and the goal is for the speaker to feel heard to their satisfaction like if the person reflects back and If you didn’t quite get what you were trying to convey you can say it again say it maybe in other words but if they did get it then you just continue with your train of thought. And we do times turn taking and we’ll start with the five minute turns. And I’ll keep time here. And if the time if it comes up to five minutes I’ll just kind of slowly ease. So, and at that point, you kind of wrap up what you’re saying you know in a in a in a sentence or two, get your final reflection from from your listener. And then, as the listener, you will then be able to speak some to select someone to speak to, and then continue with the process we’re just going to do the full time we will have like five or 10 minutes at the end just to sort of debrief have an open debrief. You know, just about how, how was the experience. The one thing is, is, as the speaker you want to pause periodically so the listener has a chance to reflect. And if you, and you’re only reflecting your understanding of what the speaker says. And if the speaker is going on and on anything on they’re going to remember all this you’re already starting to lose some of the stuff that they’re talking about you say oh can you just pause so I can reflect back what I’m hearing you say, and sometimes as the facilitator might hold up this side remember to pause. People go on and on that’s where the hardest things. So we want to get right into it so we have the maximum amount of time for doing the process. And so the question is, is what does reason feel like and or whatever is alive for you if there’s something you know kind of really burning in your awareness you can talk about that. So just to model it I’ll be the first listener just to model how the, how the process. The reflection works so whoever would like to start let’s get started what is reason to feel like or whatever is alive for you, and I’m listening. So, maybe I’ll go first since this is a question I’m frequently raising. And I think Edwin actually pose this question in response to some other way work. And so the first thing I’m going to say is I’m just appreciative of that. So what what what’s happening for me right now is I’m feeling initially overwhelmed by the question, because I do a lot of work on it. And so I’m trying to think about perhaps selecting as quickly as possible what’s most relevant. So for me, what reason feels like is that I get a sense of being in contact with how things are opening up to me. Both very clearly, but also very, also very evocatively. So, can I reflect that back what I’m hearing so I’m hearing that you’re appreciative for for this topic is it’s a topic that you really work on it’s really salient to you. And you’re thinking okay what is there’s it’s a big topic you know what’s the most important aspect of it and it’s the, and you’re saying, number one is the opening up sort of, of, there’s this opening up this that is happening. Yes, yes, I feel heard. And that opening up has this very interesting feature to it. It has an aspect in which I feel like I’m both correcting myself and transcending myself. And so it sort of reaches back to what I thought, and reaches forward to what I haven’t thought in a way in which both of those are sort of affording and opening each other up. I have a real sense of opening but the quality of the opening is you’re moving forward and also moving backwards in sensing what you’ve said, I’m not quite sure what that is but there’s a forward and a sort of a backward feeling. Yes, there’s a sense of something almost like dialogue. When reason is going forward so for me, when it takes on a life of its own and it feels that it’s coming more from the world than from me. That’s when I feel that I’m. That’s what reason feels like to me. Okay, so reason feels like it’s a. It feels like an inner dialogue. No, no, no. Okay, no, it’s more. It’s not it’s not within me. That’s actually what I’m trying to emphasize it’s actually between me and the world, and it’s a sense of reciprocity the world is disclosing itself and also my mind is reshaping itself to conform. And those are are reflecting and driving and affording each other. Did that work better. Yeah, so it’s a dialogue between you and the world you’re you’re hearing the world and reflecting the world and sort of integrating or relating with with the world. And it’s that, and it has a combination of sort of the two senses of realization, the two. We have two senses we have a sense of when things are confirming. That’s what makes them real and we also have a sense of when we’re surprised by what we didn’t expect. That’s also what’s real. And when you get those two moments together, like the world is opening up and if there’s a surprising aspect, but it’s also coming into an order, it’s very beautiful in that way. It’s very beautiful in that way. So this process has a beauty to it there’s a sort of an opening up and there’s a. A sense of surprise, feeling of surprise and of an ordering sort of a sense of ordering. Yes, yes. Yeah, that was very well said. Yeah, you I feel very hurt. And so for me that I call that the logos that’s when it takes on this life of its own. And when I feel caught up in the logos, either when I’m interacting with myself, or especially when I’m interacting with others. That’s what reason primarily feels to me when I feel like I’m not making it. I’m neither discovering it nor making it I’m I’m being caught up in it and participating. So there’s this under, you’re not making it you’re just letting it sort of flow just arise. It’s like not out of your control sort of like just being part of nature or something or. But not passive it’s not passive either. It’s, if this isn’t too graphic. Yeah, I mean, this is an ancient metaphor it’s like making love to somebody. You’re not passive, you know just making it happening right you’re there’s this there’s this reciprocal opening and participation, and you have to be willing to be sensitive to the course it’s going to take for itself. It has a life of its own that you have to respect. So it’s like making love where you’re you’re into relate you’re relating with someone it has a life of its own it’s like you’re not controlling it but you’re following the, the unraveling or the flow of it. Yeah, yeah, that’s great too. So, yeah, I feel very well heard. And I’ll speak to Nathan. Since we just did an empathy circle yesterday so this will, you already know a little bit of how to do this so it seems to me that there’s like different forms, different types of reasoning it’s like usually reason is seen as like when I hear about it in society it’s like there’s this one reason, but it seems to me that there’s a lot of reasons or reasoning. It’s not just one form. Yeah, so what I hear you saying it’s like, there’s a diversity here that you think sometimes gets covered over by people using the same word to mean different things. Yeah, it’s like the reasoning of a debate right it’s like how can I win how can I dominate the other person that has this feeling of control, and sort of like how can I really feel that that sense of, I won. I won this and there’s that satisfaction of that domination. So that seems to be sort of one form of reason. I hear you saying like there’s a flavor that has like a competitive aspect to it and try to trying to establish what’s right over against somebody else who’s arguing something else. There’s another form I think actually what we’re doing here I think empathy, you know this the empathy circle is another form of reason because we’re, we’re focusing on the listening. It’s like, there’s a. It doesn’t feel maybe as competitive, you know, it’s like there’s really a focus on, you know, you’re hearing me and I know you’re hearing me. And for me that creates a sense of calm that oh I don’t have to compete and get all anxious about am I going to be heard or I’m going to be heard in conversation. Okay, so in contrast to this like competitive style of reasoning with each other, we can also get into a more collaborative more open spacious sort of listening to each other, and that creates a maybe more open sensing your body makes you helps you to relax. And the other is another form of reasons I read a lot of academic papers on empathy. It’s like my head hurts. Reading those academic papers everything so tight and constrained and controlled. And it’s yeah there’s sort of that form of reasoning to it’s just like very sort of heavy constricted. Yeah, form. And I hear you saying it’s like, when it gets really heavy and theoretical and maybe even like complex and precise in this sort of systematic way that this is a way of reasoning that also look for you actually kind of feels more contracted in body. And there’s there’s another reason it seems like the reasoning is seen as almost like a supernatural force like God, and it’s like outside of the body type of a reason like an understanding of reasoning, but even that can’t even that has a feeling to it and it’s hard to. I feel like I don’t have the vocabulary to describe it you know there’s, there’s all these subtle feelings I just don’t have the vocabulary of describing the felt experience of it. It’s like the sort of the reasoning of the cosmos in a way like the sort of God like divine reason that might exist somewhere outside of you and you feel it but you don’t have the words to describe it exactly. Yeah, it’s more the reasoning that’s that’s how it’s sold, like, enlightenment reasoning right. It seems like enlightenment reasoning was replacing God is a supernatural force with this reasoning, which is this supernatural force that is just sort of beyond our experience is just out there somewhere and. And. Yeah, so that at least that’s, yeah, that’s something that comes up for me. Okay, so like a fourth kind of reasoning that kind of exists independent of you, and just out there in the world somewhere. Yeah, seems like kind of a con job. It feels like a way of controlling people, you know, so, yeah, so I kind of feel a resentment or irritation that you know around that. That worldview. Yeah, about that. Yeah, way that this can be used as a kind of like power tool or form of control is, is it like annoying or upsetting to you. Yeah, yeah, I feel fully heard. Okay, I’ll pick Cheryl. To be my listener. Yeah, for me there I related a lot to concepts that I’ve learned from like Rob Rabea about the energy body which is, if in like lay terms, which is be an imagination of your body as a field of energy, and then this contraction and opening really represents it to me like when I feel like I’m able to stay with my body, able to stay with my experience of the world. And then I feel like sort of open, like a sort of a free floating kind of almost like forward feeling to it like a leaning forward feeling in it. This is I feel this when I’m engaged in what I would call reason, which I can maybe go into a little bit more. In contrast, like when I feel this sort of constriction contraction of my body. It’s often that I’m, I find I may not even realize it at the time but I, and sometimes I do, but I’ve failing to reason. When I realized that at the time, I’m I feel maybe stuck in this contraction. I’m stuck in a story of view, a way of things are that seems really like solid and hard to break out of. What I’m hearing is, there are times where there is a kind of gravitational center, you’re able to be embodied and be very much from that place then expansive and to feel into the world and worlds around you. And that might be actually the place from which you’re expanding. But then contraction. On the other hand, the way you’re describing it seemed to me like you’re scattered off and trying to grasp. Yeah, and sometimes with that, trying to grasp it’s almost like the, the worst form of it is when I am grasping like quite tightly and feel that I have the view. Either, then I might argue in a more sort of my view versus your view kind of way, and trying to prove my view or I might just be unable to be creative and think in a different way than I currently do. Yeah, so I think from that I’m hearing that in that way that you’re actually, to some extent like trapped or clinging to a particular way of seeing the world, and you can’t see that you are clinging it. So you’re operating inside of that which you are trapped in and trying to move out from there. I think that’s right and even sometimes I find myself, I even develop a sort of meta awareness, and then I can take steps maybe take a walk do something to like sort of break this solidity, but I. Yeah, sometimes I’m even aware that I’m in this contracted state and holding tightly to review. And in that state kind of for me, unable to read. I feel disconnected. So with that, um, I noticed that almost the trappedness has both a cognitive kind of mental quality to it, but also an embodied quality to it like you actually feel physically trapped as well and that’s why these experiences experiences of being able to disrupt that cage and step out, move into a different space, essentially shift your perspective physically is a way to start to also kind of connect the mind stuckness and the body stuckness. Yeah, yeah, I feel fully heard. Thanks. Yeah, I guess I’ll go next and speak to speak to. Actually at this point, are we going in the same, you can speak to anyone you want your time hasn’t listened yet so you could choose him but it’s your choice, whatever you wish. Okay, I choose john. I choose. What does reason feel like. Yeah, I want to follow Nathan’s picking up of when reason feels really good in the body and when reason feels very contracted in the body. And maybe I’ll start with when reason actually feels very good. When I feel pleasure in reason. And I find that often. There’s a quality of blow in architecture. Like it’s like there is this feeling of. I am a designer and many and in many ways and builder by nature. And when reason feels really good in my body and my mind and it’s connected. It feels like if I’m kind of physically enacting it it’s like I know where to pull different ideas and concepts and different levers to be able to start to shape a larger hole that I might be intuiting, but not, but it’s still often like dimly beneath that horizon of awareness. And when reason feels good in my body it feels like it’s actually in service of kind of scaffolding that journey towards that kind of wholeness and harmony. So what I hear you saying is that you want to talk first about when reason feels good in your body. And you were talking about there’s something like a flow that you get where you’re, you’re putting the pieces together, and they’re fitting together, and you find yourself in service of that hole that is taking shape. Heard. And I, when reason doesn’t feel so good in my body. And this probably comes from also stories that I hear mirrored and somewhat of what Edwin is described. I think it’s when I’m grasping at a preconception of what reason is supposed to be in the first place. And, and then, kind of my ego comes, it’s like my ego comes into play. And it becomes about my intelligence and my skillfulness in being able to kind of live up to To meet reasons standards. And I don’t really. I noticed it comes up, especially when I’m caught up in debate, when I’m caught up in this competitive mode of reasoning, often with others where there’s this kind of adversary. It’s not even always explicitly adversarial but often there is this feeling of who’s getting there first. And even that very idea that there is like getting there first for me. It tends to, yeah, like, I think clench the very openness that often like is the good feeling of reason that flow state that wideness and expansiveness. So what I hear you saying is that when reason feels uncomfortable in your body is when you are in the grip of certain preconception of what reason is you feel like you’re trying to meet a standard. And then this engages you sort of egotistically you meeting that standard is a way of sort of, you didn’t quite say this but maybe like winning in an adversarial kind of debate situation. And so that it turns into that kind of mode. Yeah, and it’s that it feels right and as you’re mirroring that back. I feel like there is on, like, something that’s showing up right now is. I often think about reason as being in service to a specific outcome. And I’m realizing here that that deeper kind of like harmonious feeling of reason. It’s actually in service to beauty. Yeah, there’s, there’s certainly different forms of reason that one can kind of pick up as different tools in the toolkit. More and more I find myself longing for surrendering to that higher form of reason, the harmonious reason. So you’ve had a realization in this practice that you had previously thought of reason as directed towards specific goals or outcomes. But now you’re getting a deeper sense of reason that is oriented towards beauty. And you also realizing that you would like to pursue this more in your life. Do you have any. Any final things you wanted to say, or do you feel heard. Yes, I feel heard. Thank you. Okay, I’ll speak to Nathan. And I wanted to really pick up on what Cheryl said. So part of what reason feels like to me is a caring. Yes, it’s a shaping. And it’s a being shaped but it’s also a caring, caring about what’s true what’s good, what’s beautiful. So what I hear you saying is that it’s like a reason as well as being participatory in nature is also about sort of caring about things. It’s, it’s a, it’s a, and it’s, it’s a, it’s a careful way of caring. What I mean by that is, it’s learning how to care appropriately for things to pay attention to them appropriately to respond to them appropriately to shape them and be shaped by them appropriately. And so it’s like it’s a kind of skillful way of caring like not just caring in a, in a random way for whatever is coming up but like actually sort of having some kind of agency and doing it well. Exactly, I feel well heard. It’s very much in that sense, like love. You are very careful in your caring about disclosing what’s true, or, or shining forth what’s beautiful, or making possible what’s good. Yes, what I hear you saying is it’s in some ways, like, trying to afford the good and the true and beautiful through like paying careful attention to. Yeah, careful attention, and also the courage of commitment. Right. But also the willingness to receive and right, receive insight receive responses from right to indwell, and to be indwelt, I guess is what I’m saying, and to learn how to do that. And well. Yeah. So here’s like to kind of participate in almost like a conversational way with my person who’d almost like to put that into play and allow myself to change what’s happening and to shape it but also to be changed by it, they’ll allow to shape me. Yes, I feel well heard, except perhaps that I’m trying to emphasize that there’s an important element of virtue here, like, like there’s a, there’s a commitment to behaving in the best possible way virtue, virtuosity and power, right, like, like, maturing your ability to care, like, when we care about another person also maturing our ability to care about the true the good and the beautiful. So what I hear you saying is that in some ways like there’s an aspect of really giving yourself over to this practice that you dedicate yourself, almost, maybe, I would I don’t know if you say it’s too far in a sense of like, almost as a, as a dedication worshiping almost but like participating in a, in a kind of like holy enterprise of giving my best to try to develop. And I feel good. I feel heard. I guess I want to develop that then and say, yeah, it’s, it’s, there’s an important aspect of reverence and devotion, and also aspiration, all bound up together in what I’m trying to put my finger on. So you’re saying there’s like a kind of moving toward the highest, the better the best version of myself, the best version of the world, and trying to like really commit to moving toward to moving the developing sort of self world toward that, that which is good. Yes, I feel heard. For me it’s that it’s that how the care translates into commitment, and then how the commitment translates into character. That’s what that there’s sort of these, there’s the here now of caring and then there’s the more long term commitment, and then there’s the deep of cultivating character. And I feel like, in some ways, by practicing this caring about what’s good right now, and committing to doing that over time. I’m developing myself into someone who can just naturally understand what is good to care about right now. Yeah, I feel very well heard by that, Nathan that was excellent. You said it better than I did in fact. I appreciate that. Yeah, and so I, I find what I’m talking about now. I think resonant with what everybody else is talking about, about trying to get away as Edwin said from this narrow sort of logic centric notion of reason into this more comprehensive cultivation of wisdom sense of reason, if I can put it that way. So moving away from a kind of like logic bound debate oriented winner, winner version of reasoning toward a more like this cultivation of the good. And in wisdom as a sort of way to know how to how to approach things. I was excellent I feel very well heard. Thank you, Nathan. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. So what’s coming up for me is a kind of experiential version of this like when I, especially in reasoning with others. When I feel that I’m in that space of reason, I feel like we’re at the edge, where somehow there’s this feeling my body of being on a precipice of the known, and we’re looking together. So the aspect of reason for you is being on an on an edge and with others and looking and seeing what’s beyond that edge. Yeah, and it’s kind of almost like a. It’s almost like an alive into the, to the atmosphere. Outside of me, there seems like we’re, we’re sensing into where we have like sort of an inkling that we’re following but we, we don’t know where we’re going, but we’re sensing into it. And it’s, it’s almost like there’s a sort of combination of like electricity but also a very, very calm feeling in the air. So you’re at that precipice with others feeling there’s a sense of calmness, but a sense of expectation and excitement sort of an electricity of maybe what will what will arise. Yeah. And in that state which, you know, it’s not. It’s not a very common thing. Like I think especially when it’s in its real in this pure form that I’ve experienced it sometimes. It’s not something that I run across frequently, but it does feel as though I’m just so deeply engaged in the present moment and this I guess maybe this is in John’s schema, I’m really engaged in the present moment. And perhaps that with that commitment over time and the, and the, the eventual sort of development of a character that will do can do this. Maybe that’s where it’s pointed but my, my experience of that present moment is one that it’s very connecting. It feels like I am very deeply with others, and also has a kind of childlike playfulness to it. And that’s what I feel in my experience that there’s a way like when I would be a child on a playground and just just playing like no reflection about what I’m doing. So there’s a real sense of presence in that moment, as well as a feeling of connectedness with with others and there’s a playfulness and a childlike quality to that feeling. Yeah, this is one of these like sort of with others and the other one that strikes me is when I’m in a place, especially of conflict, and I can open myself to a perspective that’s not my own and really see the truth of a critique that I’m being delivered like some feedback that I’m getting. And it also feels then as though there’s just sort of more than I, I’m in touch with more than I can see. And I’m opening to it and I’m allowing it to come into me and I’m allowing myself to like, let go and really sense in again, like what is here that I might be bullshitting myself about right now. There’s a quality like when you’re in conflict with I guess with someone with someone else that you can open yourself and sense into sort of what’s beyond that and beyond the conflict. And there’s also a sense of your own self awareness, like sort of a question of how might you be bullshitting yourself. Yeah, yeah. So in this sense it contrasts to the first one where like, I can be in this full presence and I’m not aware of my own way of looking in a way, I’m just like present with them. And this other way, I’m actually quite intentionally drawing up my own way of looking and someone else’s, and then trying to step back from both and really see it anew in some way like what is here, and what, what, what other aspects of reality and my nuts. Okay, so you’re sensing into the other person but you’re also sensing into your own experience and have that question of what am I missing here what about what am I not seeing in myself. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s right. I feel totally okay. And I’ll speak to Cheryl. Oh, that’s great. Love these, this, these insights here this is a really enjoying getting a lot out of that, being in that having that awareness, I’ll pause there. I’m hearing enjoyment of the dialogue and listening that we’ve been engaging in so far. Yeah, and one thing is there’s a multiple there’s various terms there’s like reason, you know, reason to be person, you know reasoning, cognition, and body and mind, so there’s sort of these terms that I’m sort of wondering about like, I know that you had said something oh I have my, my body in my mind, so sort of that duality aspect of it and it does seem to me that when we go into when I go into my mind there’s a felt experience in my mind, if I, if I’m, if my awareness goes into the kind of the head area of my body. I’m hearing just this noticing of how these different words that we’re using and what they evoke are also located in different parts of the body especially around the head. Yeah, and I wonder if reason is the movement of one feeling into another, the flow like if I just sit in my head like I feel some can sort of constriction, you know I feel some kind of a focus, you know, maybe some responsibility to make sure all the timing and you know, working right here keeping track of everything. So there’s a sense of, of constriction that I’m feeling in in in sort of this part of my body. And by just sharing that feeling with you. It’s like I’m bringing sort of awareness to that feeling, and it’s sort of shifting it’s got a little bit more spaciousness and it’s, and it’s kind of brought me into a little bit of a feeling of anxiety, like, in this part of my body. So I shifted from this awareness of what’s going on here, shared it with you. And then another feeling sort of arose and I’m wondering is that reason is like moving from one state to the other. Is that what reason is, yes. Just kind of just kind of a sense sitting with a curiosity about that. What I’m, what I’m receiving is there is something about the quality of awareness and attention. When you need like when like you name something. So, perhaps you name, like a felt sense or something, a sensation in the body as a particular. You give it a name, and the moment of its naming, there’s some kind of movement or shift that happens. And what I’m hearing is that reason might be the, like it’s like the intentionality of that awareness to move. Yeah, there’s no intentionality is like it does it without me doing anything. It’s just by me sharing it with you, you hearing it. I’m I change maybe is that what john is talking about like that indwelling right in others so I feel you indwelling in me. But I’m feeling that energy from you coming into me and really trying to hear and understand where I am. And that’s sort of shifting something shifting in me in just sharing that and you and you trying to understand that are kind of try to reflect it back. Yeah, so there’s a quality of something that’s ever shifting and fluid and a movement. So, even in the moments where you momentarily grasp it it’s already become something else. So, how are you moving with. Yeah, and I’m wondering is reason that movement from one state to the other. Yeah, I’m not. I guess I’m trying to put my finger I can put my finger on my glasses and say this is the glasses you know this is my nose. Can I put my finger on the reason and I’m wondering if that is what reason is probably not, maybe I’m totally wrong. But that’s just something I’m thinking about. There is this desire to be able to like pin down reason. Yeah, and locate it. But it seems like there’s also an elusive quality to it to where it’s like the moment you do. I guess I’m looking to others like hey is this what you’re meaning by reason I’m kind of looking for some kind of a shared understanding, like are we, we talking about the same thing here is this what you’re meaning by reason. So, Yeah, so I think what I’m hearing to is this desire for levers, like it’s like what we name together is leaders that all of us can feel and touch together so that we sort of can co navigate this mysterious territory that we’re all gesturing towards. I don’t know if it’s mystery I didn’t think in sort of terms of mysterious it’s more out of sort of curiosity and several desire for clarity, some sort of clarity. So, I think I’m hearing this. This is, yeah, this desire for something to be able to be revealed like and co created as well. Yeah, I think the word clarity is what I was looking for. Yeah, some kind of clarity, sense of clarity. Yeah, yeah with that I feel heard. Yep. Thanks. I’ll choose Nathan. Yeah, something I really appreciate shifting towards is this movement towards collective reason or communal reasoning. And I think that really came up especially both with Nathan and Edwin. When you were describing, like I think, Nathan. When you were describing, like that, the electric quality of when a group of people like for example, the four of us as well, can kind of hold that potential together. And I think there is this way in which reason becomes the scaffolding for us to co build something that’s revealing in the center. And I feel like there is that quality feels simultaneously like revelatory like it’s something that has already been there. And yet there’s also something that’s like intensely generative and creative. And we’re bringing in reasoning and perspectives to be able to build that which is being revealed. What I hear you saying is like you’re really interested in what’s coming up for you is this group dynamic of like reasoning together, both as a sort of process of discovering something that we’re sort of peeling back layers and layers of, but at the same time, feels like we’re making as we discovered. So it’s like both generative and discovery. Yeah, yes. And I do appreciate now this bringing of reasoning into relationality and into into the connections that we’re creating. Yeah, it’s like the image that’s coming up right now is almost each of us feeding threads to the center. And we’re co weaving something that from our perspective, we can only from like I guess like one perspective, you can only be able to grasp a small part of but then I feel like that kind of collective sense making is where reason, more than anything becomes vital to be embodied, because it’s one thing for me to be reasoning in my, in my own psyche, for example, it’s like I have this capacity to kind of map out what makes sense to me in terms of what is meaningful or what I want to do or what I how I feel moved. And then when I’m stepping into a space with all of you. I’m suddenly very aware of, oh, what, what is the thread that I’m feeding to the group, so that I can kind of pull all of you in with me. And we are weaving something together. And I think that care becomes really important, because it needs to land, it needs to connect, it needs to whatever I’m naming needs to evoke something in you. So what I hear you saying is kind of a felt sense difference between reasoning on your own, in which it seems like you’re getting just a kind of coherent picture of what’s going on for you. And then with others where you’re much more tuned into caring about something that’s outside of any one of us, but that you’re trying to sort of create with us. I feel heard. And I think that’s it’s helping me get more clarity also around I think that desire that Edwin, you were invoking, because there is something very mysterious about or like there’s something that feels almost slippery about words, I guess, like the words that we use around reason or cognition or mind or logic. It’s like that territory is something that we’re all kind of embodied in and feeling into. And then what we’re really hoping to do is to be able to kind of build up connection by being able to almost turn, it’s like turn that into material for us to co generate with. Yeah, I’m noticing also kind of like finding trouble grass, like, it’s like hard, I’m, I’m noticing kind of in my body right now this like, oh, there’s something elusive that keeps slipping away in a moment I’m trying to grasp it. So I hear you saying, like, this kind of these terms that surround reason is like in a semantic cloud, or in some ways maybe like little blocks that we can use to sort of mark out the territory and connect to each other by caring about what’s what that’s like. And there’s also some sense that something’s there that you can’t quite grasp and put clearly into words at the moment. Yeah, I feel, I feel fully heard. Thank you, Nathan. I’ll choose john. Yeah. So what’s coming up for me is, in some sense this reason in the body, the, the feeling of reason in the body as contraction versus openness kind of takes on a different level and was interesting to me when you were speaking about it Cheryl kind of the idea of a body, when we’re reasoning with others that, in some sense, I might not be able to do a good job of reasoning on my own. When I’m contracted, but if I’m in a group, and I’m contracted and can hold it at least in somewhat of a skillful way. And the relative openness of others, and their ability to be creative and to not have this sort of collapse onto a view can actually sort of like, aid me and also coming into reason. So in some sense, I feel there’s this interesting idea of what is the, what is the collective feeling of reason. Well, collective. So what I’m hearing you say Nathan is you were picking up from Cheryl, the idea of a collective embodiment that is in some relationship to your individual sense of embodiment. And that that collective embodiment can often help you draw, draw you out when you feel personally sort of contracted in your embodiment. And you think that ability to draw you out is an important feature of reason. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s right. And that’s like, also this opens up that question, a question for me which is sort of how much can we really say that we can reason on our own. And that’s like an inherent component of reason that I’m reasoning with others, as opposed like I can imagine doing it, but I can also imagine on my own, but I can also imagine a certain kind of deep delusion that I might fall into. If I only reason on my own. I just, I might just not notice that I’m caring about the wrong things, because no one’s ever held up a sort of question to me, a question that maybe my own psychology is set up to not look at, because I don’t want to see that. So you’re raising. You’re raising a question, whether or not reason might be inherently sort of dialogical in nature, because, although you can imagine yourself reasoning on your own, you suspect that you might not be able to catch the ways in which deluding yourself, because you might not be caring about the right things because you don’t have the questions of others to get you to look at those other things. Is that. Yeah, I think that’s that’s right. And then in some sense. It’s a kind of distributed cognition, like so if reason is. If reason is properly understood something that kind of necessarily includes others, even if not always, but inherently is sort of based on that or needs that as a component really have it. Then there’s a kind of distributed embodied cognition, something like this. That’s coming up for me and I’m also quite curious about this. The mind body distinction that got drawn out a little bit earlier like I don’t, I don’t hold to that so much. And so I wonder. I mean I see it’s usefulness in some context of talking about being in my head versus being my body. I wonder though like about if reason isn’t something that necessarily doesn’t involve that dichotomy, like it’s necessarily beyond this mind body distinction and actually just a sort of a unity in some way of mind and body engaged with also world outside, which is often also in this distinction not included as a thing that’s, it’s affecting everything that’s happening all the time. So, you, you brought up two things you’re wondering about. The first was the idea that that you know that the, the, the stylological aspect to reason might be a necessary condition, or at least a central condition of it. And then you shifted, and I’m not quite clear on what the shift was, but you shifted to, you wanted to challenge the mind body dichotomy, because you think it’s much more about the unity of mind and body, and then the unity of mind and body with the world. Yeah, and I think I guess they could appear as just two separate topics but I think where they kind of overlap is something in this, this requirement of others, brings in to play at least this aspect of world, and then the mind body distinction. In some ways, I don’t I don’t really fully think I’m engaging in reason with others, if we’re, if we can make that distinction. If we’re sort of saying we’re in our heads or we’re in our bodies, like actually I need to be in unity and have them be in unity or the more, as much as we can maximize a sort of unity of experience, then we’re really able to reason together. So I’m not sure about that but it’s kind of an intuition. So I hear you saying although there’s uncertainty about it, but it’s the it’s striking you as worthy of consideration that if reason is inherently dialogical then the others and the world are an inherent part of it, and that distinction isn’t there. And then when I’m interacting with others I’m not interacting with mind or bodies. I’m interacting with in embodied minds. And so that distinction doesn’t really arise. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, john. So I’ll choose Cheryl. So the first thing that’s coming up for me is, I just feel almost socratically overwhelmed, because this is, this is just amazing. And I just wanted to first of all say that. I find trying to stay in concert with everything is challenging but in a way I really enjoy. I mean, there is this feeling of overwhelm, and perhaps some wonder as well with how expansive this conversation has been. And there’s a quality of it that’s also. I mean, it seems like that’s the tension it’s both overwhelming and also wonderful, wonderful. I feel heard. Yeah, and that tension within me seems to resonate with the kind of creative tension between us. So the tension within me between the making clear connections and opening right to so much more seems to resonate with the connection I have of trying to make clear connections to all of you, but also like, like really receive all the different things you’re saying that that I had not thought of. And so the tension within and the tension without seem to resonate with each other in a very, very almost musical fashion. Yeah, so I’m, I’m hearing that there is There is this quality of many different I guess like melodies that are being played at the same time, and we’re in this resonance chamber right now, where you want to cut, you want to be able to listen to all of it and hold it all. And at the same time, hear the song that’s kind of being played in the unity of it. That’s well, that’s well said. Yes. So, we’ve all mentioned this before in certain ways that the this aesthetic. It’s not quite the right word I feel that’s insufficient because what the words become today, but there’s this aesthetic quality to write that’s appreciation of beauty in this, like And I think that’s the way, like I said, there’s the way clarity of connection and openness to what everyone else is saying and then the way I’m trying to connect to each one of you. And also to all of us together, like all of those things are playing off against each other and reinforcing each other. Yeah, so it seems like there’s almost multiple. I want to say scales but maybe that’s not quite it, but multiple planes of attention that are simultaneously happening right now, where it moves from kind of like the connection to each of us and almost like perhaps even wanting that individual personal connection. And is that also whatever is harmonizing between all of us. Yes, I mean if I guess I’m trying to, if I was trying to simplify it. The way I’m connecting to each and all of you is informing and in conversation with how I’m trying to connect to each and all of the ideas. Those two are playing off against each other and each is correcting the other. So, it seems like there’s there. There’s us as individuals and people kind of in this space but then there’s also all of the different ideas and concepts that we’re also drawing in to the space together. So how, so the work that you’re doing right now is being able to feel into all of that. Yes, but also like the way the connections between ideas and the connections between people are like, like, I like what you said about different scales, almost like they’re in harmony with each other in a dynamic way. Because I don’t know where the ideas are going to go because I don’t know where all of you are going to go but but but at the same time as soon as you say something. I feel the continuity. I feel the continuity, it doesn’t feel like why is she saying that or why is Edwin saying that or why is Nathan saying that. Right. Yeah, so there’s this way in which you’re following the kind of harmony that is happening simultaneously at many different scales. And it has a life of its own. That’s what I mean and there’s something beautiful about that life. That, I don’t know what to say I just appreciate it. And it’s, and it’s not separate from. It’s not the same but it’s not separate from how I’m appreciating each one of you. It’s not the same but it’s not it’s not, it’s not separate from it, like I’m appreciating the life of the logos, but I’m also appreciating each one of you. It’s hard, that’s hard to say clearly. There’s a, there’s a sense of something alive that’s between all of us right now. And And this is, this is perhaps like a bit of an interpretation of what you’re describing but it, it seems like there is a sense of Yeah, I guess like care, a lot of care with whatever is alive that we’re sensing. That’s helpful. So the final thing I would say is, yeah, the caring for the dialogue and the caring for each one of you are not the same, but they’re not separate. They’re somehow bonded together. And I feel hurt. I want to speak to Edwin. Yeah, I want to come back to what’s in my body. I noticed actually, there’s, I don’t know what it is. I’m a little bit nervous even putting words to what it feels like but I’ll describe it. There’s, it’s, it’s like, it’s not unlike nervousness, that kind of like fluttering heart rate. And this, like, feeling of vibration, I guess, kind of like thrumming in my body. And then there’s also some, so I think there’s like that feeling of almost potential building. And I noticed like perhaps the place that I would call reason is feeling also a little bit of like frustration and contraction around. It’s like, how can I be precise about this? How can I be precise about how to offer this to everyone, so that it can be a contribution that is part of the coherence and part of the clarifying. Okay, so what I’m hearing is you’re wanting to connect back to your body and you’re sensing into that and you’re feeling sort of here, like a fluttering, not quite a nervousness, and you’d like to be able to share that. And there’s another part, which you would call the reasoning is like maybe feeling like wanting to be precise and accurate to be able to contribute that and maybe some concern, little anxiety there about being able to do that. Yeah, I feel heard. And it does feel like a kind of tension that I feel like I’m being kind of creative in nature, like, if there’s a willingness that I bring towards staying with that, with that desire, I guess, to be able to aim and pin down and, I guess, like almost like model with also this other capacity, I guess, that is very much feeling a lot more. It is a lot, it is sensing with other qualities that feel that, that I guess like for now is eluding that pinning that desire to pin down, but I know that it’s like the longer I can be with both simultaneously. There is this kind of, it’s like a radial quality, there’s like this like feeling of eventually that tension can actually expand. And somehow, the two capacities that I even falsely kind of distinguish as a binary right now are actually one in the same. And there’s that those two qualities that that fluttery and then wanting to be precise, and that it’s like you want to just stay present with that awareness, not like go off somewhere else, just stay present with that because if you just, you have like maybe that if you stay present with it, that some creativity will come out of that, then you’re sort of describing it as a, I think a cylinder or something, you had some sort of description of it that, and it’s maybe not even two separate things or maybe there is a wholeness to it too. It’s interesting when you describe cylinder, like the shape of it kind of felt much more spherical. It’s like, maybe if I’m describing different poles, if there is this way in which, depending on how I can kind of pull out and lean into and almost expand into that tension, then there is this, then it’s like the separation begins to melt. And something as I’m speaking this out loud, I noticed like there is more of that connection to, I guess, being able to linguistically reify it, which is, I think something that I have been struggling with is, like, it’s like, I almost want to ask, I want to ask the question, what is the difference, or how, like when we talk about what does reason feel like, there’s this other niggling feeling, which is like, what does intuition feel like? And when Nathan was talking about the kind of mind-body separation, I had this kind of moment of flash of, there’s also this like reason intuition kind of separation that seems to be also, yeah, present. Yeah, present. But yeah, so I was hearing that when I mentioned cylinder, it was actually more like a sphere, and it was like there was like these poles to it. And then as you sort of sense into that more the question of, what was it, inspiration, I suppose the term that came up, the intuition or that sense of intuition, and what is, you know, intuition feel? What does intuition feel like? And sort of a sensing into that quality of intuition. Is that close enough? Feel heard enough? Yeah. Okay. Yes. Thank you. So Nathan, can I speak to you? Yeah, I’m still, in terms of what John is saying, there’s all these different levels going on of sort of awareness. And, you know, like, how do you sort of navigate that? And it’s interesting, there’s always something that has sort of salience, it’s like, oh, this is really the thing to talk about. And why? Because it has the most energy, it has the most feel, it’s like, it kind of like wants to be heard, you know, or it’s something that’s just, I’m kind of, it’s I’m sitting with. So that’s how, so I’m just kind of going like, what’s really so the most salient with me at the moment? So Nathan, I hear how you’re experiencing this conversation is that sort of tracking what’s standing out, what’s almost announcing itself to you and seems like it wants to be like spoken into the space. And I feel like I’m still standing on that cliff with you, right? Looking into the abyss. I really have that sort of that metaphor in myself is like looking into the abyss, and it’s almost like looking into my body to see what will arise, like I don’t know what’s going to arise. And I feel like something seems to come out of that black abyss that’s like, I don’t know where it came from, it just kind of arose. So what you’re saying is sort of out of a nothingness that feels like it’s kind of in front of you, certain things just appear and come through in a way almost. I mean, you’re not really sure how that’s happening. Sometimes I want to speak to what is arising from that abyss or that, you know, and I sort of like sit and wait for something to arise, you know, it’s not like fishing, right? You fish, it’s like, am I going to catch something? Sometimes you just have to wait. And then I also feel some anxiety, like, especially in a group, like, something’s got to come up, nothing’s coming up, you know, and then some sort of anxiety about nothing sort of arising. And I think that’s something is a kind of like tension between the desire to just let those things emerge authentically, and then a kind of like feeling of being on or like needing to say something, and then anxiety that accompanies not not wanting to like break out of this authentic arising, but also wanting to be able to contribute when it’s your turn. And it makes me wonder if there’s like a subconscious reason if the body like without our conscious mind is reasoning if there’s a reason that the subconsciousness is doing sort of without even awareness there’s this form of reason that does seem to be going on without even thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, without consciously thinking about it. Yeah, so I hear you saying like there’s a question around if there’s like an almost non reflected form of reasoning that’s like taking place as a default kind of all the time. And that you’re just kind of, you can observe and watch as it unfolds. And and when, when so these ideas sort of merge, and I also have a feeling of wanting so that sense of authenticity sort of the honesty of just speaking to what is arising in the moment and and so be have a sense of honesty or authenticity to I mean, it feels good that it feels good to honestly share it just feels sort of an enlightening it feels, I feel lighter, I feel, I’m just anxiety in there too like oh my god I’m sharing something that I’m feeling anxious about how it’s going to be taken. Yeah, so there’s kind of those two things going on. Yeah, what I hear is that there’s a kind of a bit of anxiety around the vulnerability of trying to be authentic and follow and like actually kind of care about this on authentic honesty. And so in this way. Yeah. And so, in this listening, we’re going to say, with authentic honesty, like just caring about that and trying to bring it forward and an anxiety around the vulnerability of doing that off the cuff and not planning. It feels good to be able to share something authentic. It’s like it feels, it feels like the experience has a gentleness to it that has a, it does not feel constricted feel sort of opening and relaxing and connecting and warm and sort of loving, I guess. Yeah, I think the thing is speaking from this place of authenticity and honesty. It like facilitates and afford to kind of connection and a good feeling of sort of opening to the group and just generally feels like less constricted and in a group when I would I would go into that space to see what arose and nothing came up. I start feeling anxious, like, oh, I’m feeling anxious about, you know, nothing coming up. It’s like, I’m here on the spot everyone’s looking at me. And nothing’s arising and feeling really anxious and I started getting like a deer in the headlights like, oh, that’s our free. I’m trying to do is like, actually, especially like in public speaking, but I’m trying to do is like, actually step back and just describe the experience that I’m having like, oh, I’m feeling like a deer in the headlights I’m feeling anxious and nothing’s coming up. So I kind of like step back from that and have whatever is happening in the moment be sort of the real thing is a way of sort of addressing that. Yeah, exactly. So what I hear you saying is that like, there are certain expectations that arise with a role that you take on maybe as the speaker right now. And that can cause some anxiety. And so in order to stay in touch with this thing that you really care about which is sort of honest sharing. Take that as an object and talk about it. In order to not just freeze as your mind is kind of wanting you to do but actually like talk about the freeze as a way exactly. Yeah. And whatever arises just talk about whatever is arising in the moment. Yeah. So yeah, like just staying in touch with that authentic like coming out of the void or coming out of nothing. What’s coming up for me. Yeah, feel fully heard. Thanks. Oh, I don’t know how to pick people anymore. I guess I’ll pick john. And, yeah. What’s coming up for me is this sense of safety. Like the reason might actually. I don’t know if I would go so far as to say like, necessitate or need but is definitely supported by a sense of safety and trust. So there’s like kind of the trust in myself or like everyone’s saying sort of trust that like, whatever’s coming up is worth talking about and I’ll just share that and that’s a way to connect. That’s a kind of trust. And there’s another kind of trust of like, trusting that you’re in this sort of empathy circle way you’re actually trying to hear what I’m talking about. And both of these things seem to me to support my, my own ability to to reason to be in that space of inquiry So I’m hearing you say there’s reason might require a safety framing. And that involves sort of trust two kinds of trust. And then there’s this really interesting element of that sometimes saying something that might not feel very safe. And that is essential, but it ultimately needs to be grounded in a larger sense of safety so I might say something that I’m worried about saying, but I can say it because I trust that I trust where it’s coming from in me and I can trust that how it’s likely to be heard, and that kind of assessment seems to support a lot of this press form of presence and form of reason. So what I hear you saying is that another part of reason is the ability to say things that you might be worried about. But you only feel able to do that if that’s set within a long or larger context of, of trust, and that people are going to really connect with what you’re saying. Yeah. And I guess that, I mean what comes up for me it’s like that it could even be that, or it could be that like in this sense, friendship is the best container for reason in that like in a moment, I may not actually even have the connection and may not be able to hear me but I can trust that we will come back, and that over time we will endeavor to understand each other, even if it doesn’t happen immediately. So there’s a kind of deep trust over time that’s like the best affordance for, or like container for a kind of reason. So, what I hear you saying is your understanding deep trust as related to friendship, where there’s a commitment over time to constantly returning back to that connection. And a commitment to returning back again and again to that connection. Yeah. Yeah, I think I feel for you. So, Edwin. I was, I was, I was impressed by what you said about. There’s a part of this process is where you’re sort of just opening up to whatever is going to present itself as salient to you. For me that was, that was particularly. I don’t know what to say triggering is the wrong word because that means it sounds like I don’t like it but it was, it was particularly engaging, because that phenomena of the mind is one I’ve devoted myself to studying for like the four decades of my professional career. So, I’m deeply appreciative of that coming up. So you’re deeply appreciative of what I was saying about the saying what arises in in awareness and there was something. It wasn’t quite triggering but just appreciative of that is studying it for four decades. Exactly. And then, you brought up a kind of trust in that and what I was, what I was hearing you say. I don’t know if you were intending to say it is one of the measures of authenticity is exactly that, that kind of trusting. And then that made me think about the weird paradox were in and why that trust is needed, because we’re actually embodying the very thing we’re trying to articulate. So, right, we’re feet we’re in two senses we’re feeling our way. We’re feeling our way into it. And, and that for me that connected to everything Nathan was saying about how central that kind of trust is. So we’re we’re feeling our way into this and it takes trust to do it, which is what Nathan is talking was mentioned. Yes, very much. And now it’s coming to the four is, yeah, we have to trust that process of relevance realization, because we can’t, we can’t get outside of it, there’s no place we can stand outside of it. And so we’re in within it. And what I find there’s a, I’m tasting a something like a paradox, because we are relying on it as we’re trying to figure it out and so we’re kind of doing this weird. We’re doing this weird thing. Not bad weird good weird. Yeah, so there’s, oh, we are trusting that process we’re in it we can’t get out of it we’re, we’re stuck in the body and the and the and the realm. But there’s a there’s a paradox that we’re trying to examine it itself to. Yes, yes, we’re trying to examine that and there’s sort of a paradox we’re trying to get, we’re trying to get outside of it in a sense to see it we can’t get outside of it. Exactly, exactly. And, and I’m wondering if that tension is part of the other tensions we’ve been talking about. Right that we’ve been talking about that we’ve got these tensions we’re talking about and but there seems to be, for me, I don’t know if this is right but I’m, I got this sense of this being a deeper, a deeper tension that might be powering the other tensions. I think almost that that sense of trying to be trying to be outside of what we are seeing it from the outside it’s just a is it is a tension and that tension is sort of relating to a lot of the, of the other tensions, maybe it’s, maybe it’s the, an essence of tension is trying to be outside of what it is you’re trying to to examine. That’s well heard. Like I feel like there’s these two moves we want to be in it, and we want to be outside of it. At the same time. And for me, that points to something that I also find paradoxical about reason. And that’s what helped me give a real felt sense to it, which is reason seems to have this capacity for self transcendence. That seems to be exactly that paradox. I get outside but I find myself within, like Cheryl said, I’ve revealed it but it’s always been there. There’s these, there’s this, this kind of line I’m gesturing because I can’t articulate the word, but the paradox that paradox of in and out, and the paradox of self transcendence are really speaking to me right now, they’re speaking to each other in my mind. So that sense of being in it and out of it and that transcending of the being in it is really speaking to you that I think there’s more in it that I’m not getting. Well, what I was, yes, but what I guess the more in it that I didn’t articulate pretty well was for me that that that that self transcendence seems to be just an important feature of reason itself. One hand, one hand I’m bumping up against a paradox. But on the other hand, it feels like that paradox is essential to good reasoning. So that’s sort of like the essence of reasoning is that transcendence of the current state that you’re in. And it’s, it’s also a paradox but it’s central to the whole process of reasoning constantly stepping out of the state that you’re in is maybe even reason is the stepping out of the state that you’re, that you’re in. That’s good. You heard me now but what I want to say in addition then is it’s, it’s, it’s the stepping out and then being drawn back in, and the stepping out and being drawn back. That’s what I would want to add to it at this point. So reason is the stepping out of it and then the being drawn pulled back in to the. Yeah, it’s sort of the detaching and then the re integration or moving back into the, the state. Yes, you’ve heard me well. And that made me think again of what you were saying, I get drawn, you and I, we get drawn back in by the salient that emerges, but then you step back and you stop you talked about your attitude towards it. And then you were drawn back into it and you know authenticity, like I really heard that I’m only seeing this now, but this is reflectively but I really heard that and what you were doing. So you’re seeing it embodied in me kind of stepping out of the state and then being drawn back into the authenticity part of it so you’re seeing it sort of model there you’re able to. Yeah, which is exactly I guess my point, we’re, we’re speaking it as we’re modeling it and we’re modeling it as we’re speaking it, and those two are playing off against each other really powerfully. I’m really just appreciative of being here because for me, that’s the the essence of the Socratic endeavor to get that where we’re embodying it and reflecting on it and embodying it and reflecting on it. And that I’m finding that this particularly tasty almost juicy. Yeah, it feels really juicy the Socratic method of being in it, you know stepping out of it and then moving into it so just that back and forth flow is like the essence of the Socratic process and I think that’s the time to. Thank you. Speak to Cheryl. Yeah, that that stepping out. It’s sort of like stepping out of a state and then being able to name it. And then you’re in the state again of naming things or being in it, that whole dynamic it. Yeah, that’s something I’ve been trying to grow in, like, how do I get better at. Yeah, I used to kind of like stay in the state of something and not being able to step out of it to see it. And so I’ve been trying to figure out how to get better at that. And that you see that as a capacity that you’re working on this ability to step out and then come back in and then step back out and then come back in as this almost oscillatory pattern. And, and I don’t even know if it’s if it’s this step, stepping back in, it’s kind of like, it’s a constant stepping out. So it’s, or back, or it maybe it’s not being back in but maybe here’s one state I’m stepping out into sharing another state and another state and another state and so there’s like this flow of different feelings that are arising. So there’s a quality of expanding as well, you’re going, you’re kind of going. You’re stepping further and further. Yeah, it’s like I can, I can step out and then I can describe what the stepping out feels like the stepping out feels like it for me being in a state, it has a darkness, a warmness, sort of, if it looks, it’s kind of black, there’s a blackness to it. And when I step out, it feels a bit more sort of rigid. It feels white and sort of has a rigidity to it is what I, what I sense. But by describing the rigidity. I’m kind of like stepping back from that and I’m still in the state so getting complicated. It feels like when you’re in it, it’s quite dark, and you’re feeling it a lot more it’s almost like you’re surrounded it is your environment and then when you step out, you’re able to see it from the outside. And there’s something that feels more concrete, all of a sudden, I’m more solid, it’s not more solid it just I’m just describing the quality of it that it’s more white in terms of experience it feels or senses white, and it feels a little sort of jaggedy has a little jaggedy quality to it. So, when you step out, it’s more, it’s wider it’s more illuminated. And then you’re also able to see the texture of it better. Yeah, or the texture is sort of jagged, it has a jaggedy feel good. Yeah, so the. So it has the texture is jagged the texture has edges. Yeah. That reminds me I did a sort of freestyle dance. You know I do freestyle dancing, and in the dance I was sensing I had a sense of anxiety in myself and you guys I’ll go do something else I said no, I don’t want to leave you know just ignore or, you know, go do something, I want to go into the anxiety. I want to, I wanted to sort of fill my whole awareness and I want to see the pixels of it just like you move into a photograph and you see the pixels of the photograph. And so I started doing this thing I’m feeling anxious I’m moving into it. How do I kind of increase it, you know, breathe off I breathe into it, it’ll get bigger, you know the anxiety will get bigger it’s like starts filling more parts of my body. And, and as I move and, and then I said okay I want to get closer to it and I could sort of feel like little knives you know cutting away in me it’s like oh let’s get into the, into the knives and the more I moved into it. Yeah, I got in bigger and then it came a point where it’s so just melted away like, hey, it’s gone, that feeling is is gone. And so that’s just that’s like another sort of process description. And so you’re describing this other process where the movement is going in closer towards the feeling that you kind of raises an example is anxiety, and then feeling it build and grow more and more until it fills everything. And then it grows to the point where then it dissolves. Yeah, it was like the sensing into the pixels of it. And I did that for like an hour because as soon as that one was gone there was another one, another anxiety that I was aware of, and it was sort of in my head and it was like oh it’s. It’s like a cloud, it’s like a fog it’s like a heaviness that’s okay I’m going to go check that one. Check that one out you know so I kind of went into it and eventually that that kind of dissipated. And so for an hour was going just searching for different fears and anxieties and going into them and through them. And it was like just this one of those sort of peak experiences you know just the experience of that. And so, you’re describing experiences of just, you had this movement of swimming closer and going deeper into these different felt states, and then you’re anxiety, anxiety, and then noticing that quality of it, it’s like kind of growing and expanding and then again, dissipating. Exactly. Yeah, so I feel for that’s my time. So, I’ll speak to Nathan. Yeah, I, I’m definitely feeling the juiciness of the conversation right now and something that was coming up to me was that paradox that the paradox which is the tension that I can very much feel, I think is in the provocation of what does reason feel like. I think something about that question of asking what reason feels like that almost brings, like it’s like it brings us so intimately to the tightest feedback loop of being in and out simultaneously, because it’s almost yeah like I think I have this, there’s this quality of feeling, so I’m more aware of how reason is always trying to step out for me. So Edwin when you’re describing kind of like stepping out and seeing in, but then feeling always brings me right into, for example, like the feeling of anxiety or into my body. So, when I sent into the question, what does reason feel like it drops the simultaneity of both being in and out into the same moment of inquiry. So it’s kind of, yeah, so I feel kind of like, almost like tensely held in that liminal space between in and out and kind of feeling I guess the attractor on both sides. So I think it’s like that reason often feels like it involves this movement outwards of taking as an object, and then feeling is a kind of going inward for you and then this, and taking reason as the subject, a feeling what what does reason feel like is kind of like bringing into a deep relationship with each other, we sort of seem like they almost collapse into one thing. Yeah. And I, it’s, it’s interesting I feel like I’m on this membrane right now that’s both inside and outside it’s like skin where I can feel the inside of my skin and the outside of my skin at the same time. It’s a little bit, this, it’s like, it’s discomforting but also delicious like there’s, yeah, it’s like feeling, feeling both directions simultaneously of that skin and membrane. And I do. Yeah, I, I wonder about what I guess like it’s like what happens when I am able to. I don’t know why I have this sense of, it’s like the closer I can tighten. I feel like the, the feedback loop between in and out, the more I am able to then relax. Yeah, it’s like, even as I’m saying the word relax there’s this. Oh, that’s, it’s okay. It’s like, yeah, it’s there. It’s here. There’s often this sort of separation between the reflecting on and feeling into. And the closer you can get this to a real time, sort of informing each other. You can sort of relax into something, relax into what’s here. I’m not sure what you like. I don’t know if I understood exactly relaxing. I’m trying to notice what happened in the moment of relaxation. And it was, it was like the stop. It’s like the, the outside that was seeking. That was almost resisting being so close to the feeling because it wanted to step away. And then the inside that also has this quality of sucking you in, like, it’s like, like the way anxiety was described by Edwin it’s like, it can kind of the more you pay attention to it the more it kind of grows. And it’s like, am I able to just relax from both of those impulses, I guess. It’s kind of the relaxing is a relaxing from taking either the sort of desire to step back for the pull from the from what’s going on feeling world and what you’re experiencing on that level and relaxing his ability, it seems like it’s coming from the ability to just stop pulling and pushing. So what’s coming up is, it is like a light and dark almost like a yin yang but it’s like, if reason is like light and top and like above and feeling is below and darker. So there are kind of forces where I want to kind of get pulled up higher or I want to get pulled in deeper. And what does it feel like to then kind of meet, just be intent, it’s like it’s so interesting it’s almost like it’s both like relaxing and intensifying towards the center. So when we describing this sort of meeting point of these two forces that can get like closer and closer to where you can hold them both at the same time, and that’s kind of affording this relaxation. I’m sorry I didn’t. I’ll stop here. Yeah, okay. I hope that I did at least a passable job. I feel like I’ve been from the pattern of the thing I’ve been cooking john so now I’ll pick Edwin happens. Yeah, what comes to my mind is like, kind of, it’s moving away a bit from the binary of stepping in and out but it includes it somehow. I’m just like, my mind is sort of going toward practices that I have that seem to afford something like that. And so I guess it includes it but it’s interesting to me that like there’s a way in which I could use that stepping back and going in to describe something that’s happening for me in meditation. Also something’s happening for me in bouldering, like climbing, which I do a lot and also in music, where I like especially writing music, where I feel like there’s a kind of like capturing. I’m like, Oh, this, this is the line. Ah, this is the line. But then I am also in this engagement process like listening is like, No, that’s not quite it. What is it, what is it, what is it, what is it and sort of like sensing into, and then capturing again like Oh, that’s it, that’s it, that’s it. And sort of like flowing here with climbing like sort of trying something and then stepping back out and saying like, Okay, that didn’t work. Like, what is it sensing into with my body, or with meditation more just sensing into with my hands. Like, Oh, I got off the breath, right back, what is what’s going on with the breath, what is it, it’s here. So you’re looking at applying this to different practices climbing meditation and writing, where you try something you, and then you step back and sort of evaluate it and then try something else and move back and always trying to get to sort of maybe a connection or some getting to some state. Yeah, I think that’s the thing. Yeah, it’s like it sounds, it seems to me what Cheryl’s kind of pointing to with this. Like this is sort of the, they get in flow state. And basically, if I can get into a flow, where I am both sort of like listening to what’s out there and open to what’s coming at me, but also sort of like holding on to a real sense of what, what it is to me right now at the sort of open holding in a way like, as though I could hold something with my open hand. So there’s a state of being open to what’s arising as well as a holding of something and just being in that constant state of being open to it and and to the holding at the same time. Yeah, yeah and I feel that this is kind of what seems to be missing in this, at least for me in the contracted sense of not being able to reason, my body is that I can’t, I’m holding, I’m gripping and the same same metaphor and like my hand isn’t is clutched around the thing and not open. So I can’t, in that sense from my, from my analysis of it, it feels like I’m not reasoning in this clenching but I’m reasoning in this openness. So the reasoning takes place in the opening but not in the clenching like reason is like inhibited in the clenching and it’s flows in that opening that feeling of open openness opening. Yeah, and I guess one last thing I’ll say is that I’m curious about. I think that’s always true. Like when it might be actually quite productive to introduce the tensions of clinging. And kind of, if there’s a way in which if I hold it in this larger frame of not actually doing that. If I can have for example a debate in which I reason. And my role is to, to sort of beat the other argument of perspective but at the same time I’m actually engaging in good faith and want to know what’s right. I guess you’re within it that there can be a debate where you’re, you’re in the in a debate but you’re aren’t really honestly openly trying to understand and know what happened. Yeah, I guess what I’m pointing to is just a curiosity that came up in me around, if it’s possible to, to use to reason from a kind of like a sort of what I was describing before as a more contracted state. I’m not actually in the name of a sort of greater openness collapse around a certain view and argue for it very vehemently but I’m actually the process is reasoning, more than maybe I myself and reasoning. I want to ask. So, it’s about being in that constricted state that and can you have that constricted state but also be reasoning, arguing for a point in an open way with it within a certain within a process. So I hold both of those states at the same time. I guess in that sense, the final thing that I’ll say is something around the interest there and like, if, for example, the scientific method when it’s working properly is a kind of collective reasoning in which no individual necessarily needs to be reasoning. I’m just, it’s kind of an interesting thing to me to think about the feeling of the fear that I might not feel in my body at a moment that I’m reasoning but I might be a part of a process that is and kind of just bringing up like culture might in some sense be a collective reasoning that none of us are necessarily feel like we’re like just actually, we may actually have our own cultural expression, but collectively we’re participating in a form of reason. So, I think that you could be constricted in and of yourself you’re in this constricted state but you’re part of a culture that is reasoning so you’re sort of part of a reasoning process even though you’re feeling constricted and closed off. Yeah, I think that’s right. This is a kind of open question that I have a curiosity of wonder about that, for account matter. Yeah, so just sort of sitting with that question is this, is this accurate and, you know, yeah, thanks. Great. Well we have about 10 minutes I thought maybe just open it up and just hear how was this process you know the the empathy circle, you know the act empathic listening the question and so forth just open it to any sort of feedback step out of it. And what is arising from the, from the void. I thought this was really valuable. I’m going to probably refer to this video in other work that I do, because it. It definitely captures a really important piece of both in the manner, and in the matter I mean the way we were doing it, but also the way it was disclosing aspects of reasoning that don’t typically come up when people just hear the word reason or just being like all of that is very superficial compared to where we got to. And yet where we got to is where I think people need to get to. If they want to engage in Socratic the logo so for me. Not only did I find it intrinsically valuable in doing it and getting connected to all of you. I just think that what this, this, this video, I think is going to be like important. Because like, or it’s still, I feel like I’m kind of caught in that moment that rare kind of air, where I. Yeah, it seems like really sitting and in good faith genuinely exploring and all the things that everyone is opening up to different aspects were like affording me a kind of like shift in my perspective, and new spaces to consider. And I really like that. Yeah, just that aspect of not trying to, not trying to establish the truth. As a, as a thing but at the same time, coming into a shared resonance of the truth. As we listen to each other. Yeah, my, my reflection on my first ever empathy circle is, I found the container to feel very safe. Even though, like I know Nathan quite well I’ve met john once and Edwin I’ve never met you before. Considering the fact that there was something that felt. I realized that there was. It felt safe to feel risky. I guess, because there was something about it felt like reason, which often kind of desperately clutches onto its flashlight. Just needed to relax in the darkness, and just switch it off. And Yeah, I, I find it’s. It takes a lot of trust. And then within that kind of arena of trust to be able to allow. It’s funny, now that I’m describing reason it’s like reason feels like almost a good character to me like she’s. She is able to just relax in her environment, become porous, and then almost begin to sink into and expand into these deeper wider, wiser capacities. Yeah, and it required a lot of just as Nathan mentioned, not trying to seek truth. And I think that’s something that I can’t also come. So thank you. Great. Well for me, how is it. I feel sort of a little bit of constriction and almost a giddiness it’s like a giddiness. I just want this. I could go for kind of hours, you know, just kind of exploring this and you know we went two hours, but quite a while but I feel like you go for. I thought of doing a day long empathy circle, can you go for eight hours, what would happen after. I think bathroom breaks and stuff but anyway. So yeah, well great thanks for taking part in this and you know glad to do any other circles or maybe, maybe, I think this is a great topic, you know for bringing in other people to so hope we can continue, or if you want to post it to your site, john instead I would very much like that. If you send me the file, I’d very much like to post it on my channel. I’d like like I’d like to be able to refer to it. That’d be great. Yeah, you got much bigger audience so it’d be great to get the word out. Yeah, if that’s okay with you I’d really absolutely fantastic. So okay, well that’s kind of all I’ve got for now. So, thanks everyone for taking part in this. Yeah, well thank you Edwin for for creating this and bringing us together. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Nathan and thank you, Cheryl. Thank you.