https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=M3IM-dUY9CQ
Yeah, I think that I agree with you, John. I think that that’s the way that I tried to always speak about agency intelligence is one that tries to scale almost effortlessly through the different, you know, to avoid the woo soul that we’re afraid of. But then again, this is the issue. Like this is in some ways, it’s the same problem. Like one way or the other. So let’s say you have a group that self organizes around a purpose, right? Or self organizes around affiliation or some type of origin, right? That affiliation, that purpose is also given, right? It’s like it appears as a revelation. And then all of a sudden we’re all hunting a lion together and now we’re a group and we’re moving towards towards a purpose. Now. This is the this is the this is the problem with the situation of what’s going now is that what is it? What angel are we catching? Like what what what God are we trying to manifest? Like which unity, what purpose? We have no idea. So we’re building this massive body, like this huge, the most powerful body that’s ever existed. But nobody knows what it is we’re trying to catch. Because if I get together with a bunch of guys to play basketball, I know what that body is. I know what that with that, that that that agentic body, intelligent body is is is moving towards. Right. If I get together with my family and I celebrate our unity, it’s because I know that we all come from the same parent and that there’s a there’s affiliation that makes our society coherent towards something. But now we have this problem, which is what like, what are we doing? Like we’re just building this giant body. It’s like I agree. And I’ve agreed with that. Yeah. And the thing that that’s so odd, I mean, typically, if you think of technology as a human creation in some good, positive sense, it’s it’s it it it has limits and it has a particular place. It has a particular meaning, has particular purpose, precisely because we create it in order to solve some kind of a problem. We you know, there’s some there’s some need that needs to be filled. And that need has a kind of natural givenness or or or or it’s revealed somehow that, you know, it’s responsive to something that we see. What’s so interesting, Neil Postman made this point about, you know, when he said he went to a car dealership and wanted to buy a car and the man was explained to him that they had now these, you know, automatic windows that that that would roll down at the push of a button. And he and he said, he said his his I mean, this sounds so naive, but it’s a profoundly interesting question. He said, well, what problem does that solve? And of course, the problem that it solves is the problem of rolling a window down. And his response was, I never perceived that to be a problem. You know, I mean, and it’s really interesting. I mean, the thing is, what problem are we creating it to solve? I mean, in a certain sense, it’s a very different mindset. We’re just kind of taking. We just want to see what we can do and see what can be done. And in a way, the problems are something that we are arriving at and are surprising us rather than something that we’re actually creating something that just simple, simple task of solving for us. You see, I mean, I think that’s connected to this being placing ourselves in that in the hands of an angel of some sort or, you know, entering into a kind of an agency that’s bigger than we are. I know those are all connected. They are. But I mean, one problem was trying to be solved was the scientific problem of like strong. I was a project of explaining intelligence, and that’s a that’s a worthy thing to do. And the fact that this technology has largely been. Yeah. But notice, that’s interesting. That’s that’s that’s not a a technical problem like you explaining something. It’s actually, I mean, to use the classical distinction between theory and practice, that’s a sort of a theoretical issue rather than a practical one. But we think of this as a as a technology. I mean, it’s a that’s a curious thing. Well, yeah, and I would get into things like books are technologies that move between the theoretical and practical. And it’s one of the greatest technologies we ever invented, and it had all kinds of unforeseen consequences and really massively disrupted society. But, you know, and but I wanted to make another point. And this isn’t a challenge. This is just a clarification point. Right. These like like think about a computer. What problem does a computer solve? It doesn’t solve a problem. It is meant to be a multiple problem solver. And then what we’re trying to do is make a general problem solver. So what problem is it’s trying to solve? It’s not trying to solve any problem. It’s trying to enhance our abilities to solve all the problems we try to solve. So this machine is going to help us in medicine. It already is. It’s going to help us. Right. And in physics, you know, like that’s it. And so that that that’s the answer. Now, again, that’s not a challenge. That’s I’m just speaking on behalf of people that think about this. But it is kind of interesting. I mean, so the problem that it’s solving is the is the the need to be able to solve any possible problem. Having a meta problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But but I mean, but it but it is kind of it’s it’s sort of it’s sort of curious that precisely because of the the indeterminacy of that. We’re we’re we’re we’re exposing this. And I’m just sort of stating, you know, our condition here in a way. We’re exposing ourselves to a really great risk. I’m just restating what everybody has been saying today. But that’s that’s something that that, you know, requires some wisdom, as you’ve been saying over and over, John, and and and and prayer to use Jonathan’s language to. I just want to do one can’t you’re jumping in. Mentioned in the in the in the in my essay, which is we will. We have done this before. That’s how civilization emerged. Nobody built it to solve a problem. There’s a bunch of little problems. And what civilization is, is a meta problem solver. Right. And that’s that’s what it is. And then and then you can. So I’ve actually suggested we should also be paying attention to the the lifetimes and the life cycles of civilizations and how civilizations reproduce and why they rise and why they fall to get some better understanding. Some other ways of thinking about these machines. So we’re civilized. Drawing nations are huge distributed cognition, collective intelligence machines. That’s that’s the living in cities is a horrible idea, except for the fact that it gives us better access to the collective intelligence of distributed cognition. That’s the that’s the benefit that outweighs all the many noxious side effects of living in cities. You can also get better coffee, typically. Yeah. So we’re coming toward the end of our time here. I mean, this is fantastic. I don’t think I really can go for two hours on any conversation. Like we were just we’ve just been going. Well, not only go for two hours, but sort of wish we had another two. Well, that’s what I was going to say. I mean, we can we can we can work on doing this again, because it feels like we’re we’re sort of we finally all come together around something here, and now we’re really asking what feels like a really important question to me is, well, how do we think about integrating this solution, this meta solution into our meta problems? And that’s that’s a really interesting question. I think that John bringing up civilization is such a great point, something that I would really love to explore because there is also, you know, in the kind of inscribed in the mythological stories, a relationship between transpersonal agency and civilization itself. Right. Like if you want to understand why the Egyptians had their king as a god and like all this type of structure, you can it can help you understand how they’re trying to capture, you know, higher forms of intelligence distributed intelligence, the intelligences in their society. And the idea that we would be doing this technically in a in a I think is something that definitely is worth thinking about and discussing.