https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=fWhaOqY2IQM
young girl dancing to the latest beat has found new ways to move her feet and the lonely voice of youth cries what is truth? young man speaking in the city square trying to tell somebody that he cares can you blame the voice of youth for asking what is truth? yeah the ones that you’re calling love are gonna be the leaders in a little while when will the lonely voice of youth cry what is truth? it’s all world’s waking to a newborn babe and I solemnly swear it’ll be their way you better help that voice of youth find what is true and the lonely voice of youth cries what is truth? alright well welcome back I had a little hiatus I did do stuff last Friday but I’m back I guess last Friday was a failure we didn’t do a livestream we have one now we’ve got our Sam Pell ready to go I have a Snickers bar in case I get hungry because I didn’t have dinner tonight reasons I’ve got some tea technically not tea Tappy Tract from my favorite tea company Table Rock Tea it’s not tea because it’s actually just herbs and that’s a tea song technically I learned that from the Table Rock Tea Company have a nice little tour of course we’ve got our Muppet Mug have you considered? you might you get full of Sam Pell so we’re ready to go there great success great success and yeah two weeks ago we did success and now I figured like yeah let’s do failure because it seems like that’s a good idea and then at that you know you might ask what is failure? have I failed to capture your attention? does the fact that I’m not making a million dollars a year on YouTube mean I’m a failed YouTuber? did I fail at all the businesses I started that are no longer running? what if only one of them turned to profit? or do I succeed just for having tried and therefore there’s no failure? or did I learn something and therefore no failure is assigned to what I did? see these are not easy straightforward questions to answer and so you might say Master Muppet Mug is a failure you might say Master Muppet Mug standards are important for failure as well you’re measuring against something as we went over in success but just to be clear on my position failure is not the opposite of success it’s not the lack of success it’s not the lacking for success I think that that is a dead-end definition it’s part of this binary thinking and I think it’s just plain wrong and unhelpful and maybe what is more helpful is to ask how to build a bad life because that’s failure and hopefully in that little rambling you notice that there’s a space between what we’re calling success which is our judge and that’s what we talked about last livestream right a couple of weeks ago and failure and so the implication there is that failure is not a judge at least not in the way success is and what we’re missing in general I would say in the sort of ethos the conversation the zeitgeist the milieu of the culture war is this sense of space now this stream is not about space right but I have to mention it here to destroy this false dichotomy this binary of success versus failure I don’t want you to get caught up in this idea that failure is a negative judgment and success is a positive judgment they don’t think that’s helpful don’t think that’s useful I think negative success and positive success maybe that’s more useful and look the world has space and that’s where potential is waiting to manifest it’s waiting for manifestation and how you take a step from failure to success or from neither failure nor success to what you call success or from neither failure nor success to one or the other space that’s how you have to have a sense of space in order to understand these things and in particular in order to understand that the world is not made up of binaries that’s how you get there you realize oh there’s space say between things and there’s manifest sorry there’s potential that you can manifest and it could go we’ll say in either direction although we don’t really like direction here this is this is a pirate stream we’re all about navigation and orientation and aiming not mere direction we’ll get you anywhere on a boat and tell you that much the space is important but again you know we’ll save that for another another live stream or perhaps I’ll do a recorded video on it and so recently I ended my my lawsuit over my mother’s estate and their theft of it and they admitted guilt to the court however I mean that took four years to get to the bottom of it and I spent four years so lots of time energy and attention and ended up financially in the hole right and you may ask yourself was that a failure did I make an error what was it a mistake to do this to go through this for four years and I fought for the admission that my mother did not want her estate to be scattered to the four winds all her personal effects and the results of all of her life and my stepfather’s life destroyed given to a random person she met on the internet who never knew her well that’s what I was fighting for and I got that admission so it’s not a failure nor was it an error right even if it cost me years to get there and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four years on this and I spent four minutes, otherwise it wouldn’t even go necessarily well, since it dragged on for so long. But it wasn’t a failure. You could judge it as a success because the end goal was to get the admission that that was not what my mother wanted. That’s one way to look at it. And it’s good to have that admission, right? It’s good to have an ending to something, even if the ending is bad. Ending things that are going poorly is usually better than continuing them indefinitely, which a lot of people do. A lot of people fall into that trap. And that’s when it becomes a failure. That’s when they become in a failed state. And just because you’re failing now doesn’t mean you have to fail indefinitely, right? And I think that’s one of the things we’re missing when we talk about success. We want to also talk about failure, right? Because we like that binary, that dichotomy. It gives us a way to judge things easily, right? There’s only two things. That limits your choices, makes choices easier. Absolutely, it does. But is that the right way to go about it? The thing about failure is that it is a sense of deep asymmetry, right? You don’t need a standard to feel failure. You can self-convict of failure. You can say, oh, I definitely failed at that, or I’m definitely a failure there, irrespective of a standard, right? And you will. You will judge yourself. Success is more easily thought of as judgment from outside, like a value or standard outside of yourself. Failure has nothing to do with that. And that is the thing, right? Lots of times we blame others, we blame society, we blame nature, we blame the outside world for whatever’s happening to us. When in fact, the one judging us is merely ourselves, our subconscious, our desires, our loss. And we’re coming up with excuses for these things, why they’re manifesting in the world. We’re saying, oh, it’s not my subconscious. It’s not my desires or my lust. It’s the outside world preventing me from succeeding or preventing me from doing the thing. But those are all things that are internal to yourself. So we project that outside of ourselves to avoid the feeling of failure. But it doesn’t work, right? You know, you can drink your sorrows away, but you get more sorrowful because now you’re a drunk. So you’re kind of moving it around. But like, that’s just it. Like, failure is a feeling. It’s not outside of us at all. It’s totally internal to our minds, our personal minds. So you can feel like a failure when everybody else thinks you are winning and have it all. That happens to people all the time. And you see that and you don’t sort of think of how does this affect me? What does this mean for what I’m doing? Oh, I know what that person’s doing. What does it mean for what I’m doing? Because you do that too. And the interesting thing is the things we have the most control over are the things in our head. So in a way, we have the most control over our failure. Now, I’m not saying you have lots of control over the things in your head. Maybe something like meditation or prayer can help you have some control over the things in your head. But you have the most control there, right? Plus tons and tons of influence, right? You very much influence your thoughts. And that’s important, right? Because I think that’s where we should all focus in general. What influence do we have over our feeling, in this case, of failure, right? Or feelings in general? What influence do we have over ourselves to change our attitude, our affect, the aspect at which we’re approaching the thing that we’re experiencing? The thing that we’re experiencing in our head or our fantasy. See a previous live stream on hallucination and fantasy. That’s what prevents failure, is the amount of control you have over the sense that you have of failure in your head. And of course, again, we don’t have total perfect control over what’s in our head. We don’t have that, right? But we have a great deal of influence and we should use what control we do have and all the influence that we have to try and get our sense of failure resolved in some fashion. A lot of people say, feel like failure is because the parents didn’t praise them enough when they were young. That’s a very real phenomenon. It happens to almost everybody. Don’t even realize it. That’s the problem. Don’t even realize what influences have happened to you to cause you to feel your feelings. You don’t know where they came from. Not in all cases, but in many cases. And so what that means is that we don’t have control over our sense of failure. In some cases, you’re feeling like a failure that’s kind of on you. But also, you can fix it. And the thing is, if you cannot get past your own sense of error or making a mistake, even if you didn’t make a mistake, even if there is no error, and this happens all the time, according to everybody outside of you, all the people, maybe, everybody thinks what you did was correct and you still feel like a failure. But if you can’t get past that connection between error or mistake and failure, then you feel failure. You feel that. That’s the result. So failure is wrapped up to some extent in what your goals are, in the standards you set for yourself. This is different from success, where it’s a value outside of you. Failure is very internal. And you’ll notice that really successful people have their own standards that they are constantly striving for. And they are not satisfied with the same things as other people. They want a gold toilet. I don’t want a gold toilet. They want a jet. They want a four hour work week. Great book, by the way, Tim Ferriss. They are unconcerned with the standards of others to a large extent, not entirely. I mean, we all need that validation externally. Right. We outsource our sanity. But they’re pretty unconcerned in general with what other people think of what they’re doing and how they’re doing it and what they have and what they prioritize, because the stuff we have is really just a question of our priorities. And these successful people, they have their own relationship to virtues and values. They know what that is. Now, you may not agree with it. It may be bad, but they have it. I would point at Sam Harris and say, is a bad relationship to virtues and values. How the relationship and he thinks he’s successful, even though I would argue he’s kind of not able to avoid evil at all. I have videos on that, of course, on navigating patterns, because of course I have videos on that. One of my more popular videos, actually, is Sam Harris video. So highest value. And this this is an asymmetrical relationship between the inside and the outside. Because the world isn’t your internal conception. Or the conception that you perceive others as communicating to you, right, is the famous problem of somebody says something you interpreted. How do you know that their interpretation of what was in their mind as it came out in words matched what was in their mind? And then how do you know that your interpretation of what you heard and maybe you didn’t hear them perfectly is accurate to their interpretation of what they said? There’s all this. It’s very complicated. Language is enormously complicated. There is a conversation is going to save the world. And like language is so imprecise and imperfect and ridiculous that no, it’s not going to make things worse. And it does reliably. We see that. There’s a symmetrical relationship between inside and outside world. Your internal conceptions are different from other people’s internal conceptions, and those are different from the expressions of those conceptions. So sadly, for those who want a simple flat world, the world is consisted of both your internal conceptions and external conceptions. That’s a problem, unless you don’t make it a problem. You know, you don’t have to make it a problem. And so the combination of the inside signal and the outside signal helps us to determine the relationship that you have to the world. Right. That’s the relationship you have to the world. It’s not one signal. It’s not like, oh, my conception of the world is OK, and therefore we’ll just do that. Right. Because that doesn’t resolve anything. Now you’re stuck by yourself in an intimacy crisis because you’re not connected with the outside world. And you can go a long time, years, decades in that mode. No problem. But it’s not good for you and it’s not good for the people around you. Someone’s got to make up for your unicorn rainbow ideas when the world isn’t going that way. And it’s inevitable that this inside and outside signal come together to form our world, right, from that relationship. And that’s why you can plan to fail or fail to plan. It’s a deep asymmetry. It’s deeply asymmetrical. Planning does not prevent failure or error. Doesn’t prevent mistakes. Right. But what planning does do is it allows you a better chance to correct errors and turn them into learning. Which is really what failure is for. Right. You do something doesn’t go the way you predict. The prediction engine is wrong. It needs to be corrected. You have to admit that your prediction is wrong in order to correct. A lot of people have a deep problem with that. The number of people professionally I’ve approached and said, well, you said that this was going to go this particular way and it didn’t. Now what? And they go, I didn’t say that. I’m like, what? Of course you did. We wouldn’t have done this project if you didn’t say those things. And other people will go up to you, you absolutely said that. I know I didn’t. I have had people type up project plans. This is what’s going to happen and this is the result and blah. And I’ve taken a project, but I didn’t write that. You kind of did. I mean, we’re in a deep denial when things go wrong. Because we don’t want to have error, erred. We don’t want to have made a mistake. We don’t want to have failed. But the thing is, you only fail when you don’t admit the error. And any failure can be turned into a success with the right attitude or intent. Learn from your error, from your mistake, from your failure or become angry. Resentful, embittered. And you’ll notice that when people are angry, they can’t learn. Resentment means people did not learn and probably at some level of their subconscious or whatever they knew they should have. And embitterment is the dedication to never learning again. It’s all wrapped up in the escape clause of the false dichotomy, the bad frame, the binary. That’s how we get caught in anger, resentment and bitterness. We don’t recognize the space, the space for change, the space for growth. The way out is learning, growing, becoming more than you are today, rather than accepting some bad frame of success or failure. And the problem with, say, treating failure is that it’s internal. And so other people have a limited range that they can apply to help you through failure. If you feel like a failure, here is very little other people can do for you. Very little, because it’s an internal thing. It’s deeply internal. That’s a big problem. You can support people as best as you can. You can encourage them. And to Jordan Peterson’s excellent point, people need so little encouragement. A little bit of encouragement goes a long way. And reminding people of their predictions of their failure, when in fact nothing but their success is evident to the outside world. Say, well, you may feel like a failure, but you’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. Say, well, you may feel like a failure, but actually everybody else thinks you did a great job. Everybody else thinks you pulled it off. Everybody else judges you well and values you. Right? It’s not enough to have a sense of lack of failure, although that’s a thing. I didn’t succeed. I didn’t fail. That’s that space. You also need to give people a sense of success, of having brought value or manifest meaning in the world. Maybe they came away with a lesson. Or maybe they just learned that, yeah, your predictions weren’t right, but they weren’t going to be. There was no way that you were going to be able to predict and get success the way you wanted. It doesn’t mean you can get success. It means, oh, I didn’t do this perfectly. And again, high performers, top-end tennis players, they will beat themselves up out of the dumbest mistakes and errors, stuff that you and I would just give our eye teeth to make a mistake like that or as few mistakes as they do. That’s also what makes them who they are. You may not want to be like that. I don’t recommend it. Those people tend to burn up pretty quick. A few, a very few, are okay, and we should look up to them. But it doesn’t mean we should try to be them in that way. High standards are tough on people. And giving people an environment where they feel safe to make mistakes, to have erred, is the best you can do. And then eventually over time, maybe they can develop a better perception of themselves. Your self-perception is still influenced to a great degree by those around you. If they perceive you as valuable, you’ll begin to believe that you’re valuable, which by the way you are because being is good. But obviously people aren’t there yet. That to me is what’s important is that sense that you can give people that failure is a choice, a personal choice. Errors are not. Mistakes are not. Turning them into failure is a personal choice. And I think the best way to sum this up, the best way to think about this is to say that failure is not when you make an error or a mistake. That’s not what it is that has no bearing on failure. Failure is when you do not submit to making an error or perhaps to the idea of error itself. Because if you do not recognize an error or a mistake, if you do not do this, you cannot learn. You must err to learn. When you do not do that, you do fail. So again, failure is entirely up to you. Now I thought that was pragmatic enough for all the Muppets. But I thought that was a good thing. I thought that was pragmatic enough for all the Muppets. But I want to hear what you all think in the live chat because that was really as far as I wanted to go with failure. I didn’t want to harp on it too much because I do think at some point it’s much ado about nothing. A lot of people are caught up in this failure idea when in fact for me it’s barely existent concept. It’s only failure when you do not open a space to embrace mistakes and embrace growth and learning from those mistakes, from those errors. Because errors are inevitable. We live in an imperfect world, it turns out. It might be a news flash for some people, I don’t know. But we do live in an imperfect world. And the question is how do you deal with that? The question is what do you do about the fact that you are stuck living in an imperfect world? Because you can say, oh, I did this thing, it didn’t work out the way I expected, and therefore I have failed. And unfortunately, like I said, people do that. And it’s terrible that people do that, but they do do that. Yeah. Rakko, I think that’s how you pronounce that weird name. I love the embitterment is the dedication to never learning again. Well, thank you. I like that too. I came up with that just a few short hours before this. Matthew Peralto. Yeah. Errors are a part of success. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wallowing in the errors is a failure. I mean, yeah. Embitterment, yeah. I think that’s the real key is not getting discouraged by your errors and mistakes and seeing that there’s opportunities to grow. But we don’t see that in the world. We see the world as a video game. And the more I sort of look into that, the video game problem seems to be much more of a culprit than I would have hoped. I’m like a fan of video games, so it’s hard to realize video games give us a distorted view of the world and how it operates, because there is a perfect answer in most video games. Matthew. Discourage is the meta. Miss Fortune it. That is not a word we use here. I hate that word. It’s not a word. I hate that word. I hate that word. I hate that word. The meta. Miss Fortune it. That is not a word we use here. I hate that word. I have a video on that. Why encouragement is so moving and profound encouragement can be moving and profound. The problem the cards doesn’t solve all problems. You can encourage people all you want. And if they can’t hear you. I can’t hear you. Not that you should stop. All right. Just you shouldn’t expect it to be magic because we’re expecting in the age of gnosis for a lot of things to be magical. Right. Where my actions or my words are going to have some outsized effect on the rest of the world. And. We live in a fallen world. It is imperfect. And so things don’t don’t work the way we want them and they don’t work the way they do in a video game. Video games are very accurate precise. They kind of have to be because electronics and we get this weird sense of the world and we want it to be that closed world that easy logical understandable. There’s a perfect answer sort of place because of video games partially and it’s not. If you play as a try hard. Video games have benefits. Everything has benefits. This is the problem with these benefits arguments that people make. Actually everything has benefits. This isn’t helpful to know. The fact that. Smashing your hand on a mirror has benefits is not interesting. You still shouldn’t smash your hand on a mirror. And everybody’s trying to do this weird redemption. Through magic by using the magical phrase that everything has benefits. And then these same people always say we can’t go back and it’s like we can go back. We’ve gone back many times and we’ll go back many more. The question is when we go back how are we doing are we doing it in a controlled fashion or are we crashing our entire culture. Matthew meta misfortune as in the ultimate misfortune of one’s poor handling of the misfortunes. This self referencing stuff doesn’t work for me dude. I can’t do self reference. It’s just I don’t. Stacking things on top of things to create layers when they’re the same thing over and over again. It doesn’t work for me. I can’t do self reference. It’s just I don’t. Stacking things on top of things to create layers. When they’re the same thing over and over again it doesn’t actually create layers. It just sticks you in a weird loop. That’s not my argument. Well maybe not. It’s what you said though. So I only have what you said. It’s pointing out specific ones there are. Look. Yeah. I don’t know that video games are fundamentally different. Because it is still a closed world. Right. And there is still a level of certainty that doesn’t mirror anything in the world that isn’t in the computers. Or the electronics. However you want to phrase it. Lazarus. That’s the Izzot Divide. Yeah. No one talks about the Izzot Divide. Everybody pretends it doesn’t exist. But it does. And it’s probably the biggest problem we have today. And that’s the issue. Is that. Nobody talks about the Izzot Divide. Roughly the religious frame. Not some plain that says benefits thing. Again. It’s not plain. It was the only positive argument. Video games can have benefits. So Matthew. This is the theory. Video games that allow insight and flow to bleed into real life. I don’t think they do. There’s no evidence for this. I know people say it. And over here he’s particularly fond of this. Flow state is not a solution to a problem. Flow state can get you killed really easily. Rock climbers happens all the time. There’s no evidence that bleeds into real life. None whatsoever. There’s evidence that certain skills may be accepting from video games. But their skills. Not flow states. But flow state is not a good thing. And that’s the problem. PVP is not the same as you say. Well it is and it isn’t. I mean. Yeah. It’s not as closed world. But it’s very closed world. It certainly teaches you more skills than say a non PVP game would. That’s for sure. But like it’s nothing compared to a person in person. Nothing. And that’s the problem. Is that you’re really missing way more than you realize. When you’re not in front of somebody. Or when you’re not on video with somebody even. Like video with voice only or text only. There’s levels to this stuff for sure. Fair. Definitely. Agree. Doesn’t solve a problem. Doesn’t solve a problem. Misfortunes are a given. OK Matthew that’s true. How one handles those can be seen as another misfortune I guess. No I wouldn’t self-reference. I don’t think that’s helpful. JV disagrees. Raviky disagrees with me on a lot of things. And he’s wrong about most of them by the way. But different argument. Is much more aligned than you’d think. No they’re not. They’re orthogonal. I’m the JV nerd. OK. Well we can play that game if you want. I’ll put my John knowledge up against anybody else. Ever. That’s fine. Lazarus. Bishop Aaron calls Catholicism a game that you play. See I think he’s making a mistake. That’s why I don’t like his work. I think Lactea Divina is a much better way to get into flow than a flat video game. Which practice are you talking about? Raviky has a practice called Lactea Divina. Which we’ve modified by the way. For as a group practice. Certainly interacting with the text. The Protestant version where the sola, you in the text. Not a fan. The Catholic version of Lactea Divina is much better. Yeah. You know. I don’t. I don’t know. Certainly being in a group and talking about a text is super helpful. And you learn so much from it. It’s like insane. So yeah. I mean it’s a tough one. Anything is better than a video game really though. Like getting out of your house is. You know the only thing that’s not better than video games is like watching TV maybe. That’s probably worse. Matthew. JV would say are much more aligned. Yeah he would but he’s wrong. He doesn’t understand the isot gap. And he confuses that with other things all the time. He clearly doesn’t understand the isot gap. He’s not going to understand the isot gap. Well he’s not going to understand it. And he’s not going to understand it. But he’s like he talks to people all the time and he’s like, I can’t have an argument with other things all the time. He clearly doesn’t understand it. And he legitimately believes that people are this far away from scienceing away the isot gap. And that’s just such ridiculous talk. I can’t even entertain how stupid that is. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. It’s dumb. Class. Good to see you sir. I haven’t played that one. Look, I mean again, I’m a video game fan. Like I was a pretty good Quake world player talk about PvP. I was always in top three on the servers I was on for years. Like I was I did a great job had a lot of fun, but also, you know when you’re as good as getting outside and and actually talking to people, right? Lazard, Vrvig is drawing for Catholic prayer technique. Yeah, I know I know he is but it’s not his he’s got a Protestantized version of Lectio Divina That’s like that’s actually the flaw we corrected with our practice with the group version of that practice which we’re renaming by the way We corrected the you do this by yourself with the book, which is very Protestant way to do things obviously, right? So that’s what we corrected and yeah, I would agree that that particular practice was amazing and people got a lot out of it And and yeah, I mean it was great Matthew He’d argue that the laws of what is and the normative patterns we’ve inherited as what ought are much closer Yeah, he’d argue that but you know what? He can’t actually make the argument He says that over and over again, but I’ve never heard him make the argument Because he can’t and I know he can’t I look we’ve asked for Vicky about this many times There’s a lot of access to for Vicky on the only old for Vicky discourage over which I left by the way I let be om to kiss rebels. I can’t stand it. We’ve talked to for Vicky about this many times Multiple of us and he just doesn’t have an answer. He says a lot of things over and over again But he doesn’t make an argument. He just says that one exists and I I can argue anything. So the fact that an argument exists is not an impressive thing to me because I’m really good at making up arguments That doesn’t mean it’s a valid argument or that it should be entertained That just means that you can be argumentative which I’m particularly good at like if you need to know how to argue something Just you know, call me up and I’ll I’ll Right off the top of my head. She’d all right make an argument. It’s great Lazarus specific Michael Casey’s book called sacred reading. Yeah. Yeah Benjamin Franklin always trepidation Video games end if it is a single-player game. Yeah Well all video games end because everything ends it’s called death or you can quit if you get tired of it Yeah, that’s the problem. You can’t do that with life If it’s an open-ended game also you choose to play you don’t choose to be born no you don’t You kind of choose to play sometimes you don’t really choose to play sometimes you don’t want to play and you play anyway Is that a choice? I don’t know interesting question Ethan can you spend a minute on redemption? Really Ethan? You want me to get into that now give me a minute maybe I’ll uh, maybe I’ll go down the redemption rabbit hole Ethan just wants to see me angry. Ah, it might work. I’m already getting there Can we agree you have a different understanding all good Yeah, I can agree. You have a different understanding of her Vickie’s work. That’s that’s fine Everything is prioritized today. Yeah to some extent right? That’s the rise of individualism Where does individualism come from now? That’s see now you’re given Ethan what he wants individualism comes from Sola Alone alone alone alone alone really alone alone alone alone alone We’re all alone. We’re all alone. We’re all alone. We’re all alone. We’re all alone Dun dun dun alone alone alone alone alone really alone alone alone alone alone. We’re all alone Interesting is that what the Protestants think about the world that we’re all alone Certainly seems that way Lazarus I also enjoyed retro video games. Yeah, they’re cool. I think the more task or Oriented and immersive they get the scarier they become they do and it’s an interesting that you put it that way scary They are scary. Why because they’re hijacking our senses. Look, I’ll make arguments all day long that kids should play video games Because it does train children for certain things The question is whether or not 30 year olds should play video games or 40 year old or 50 year old, right? What 20 year olds that’s where it gets kind of tricky because again, we don’t have that sense of space That sense of motion through time that sense of development, right? Like success or failure No, no development. That’s what allows you to turn what you would have characterized as failure into not fail Is that sense of development? Video games are good for development Should look into the JV discord the JV discord’s garbage you can go to the awakening from meaning crisis discord server if you want I don’t think anybody there actually understands John’s work They used to ask John questions and he’d basically correct them because they were dumb They didn’t like the arguments that Manuel and I made even though we Understood John’s work a lot better than they did for sure. I don’t think John would actually disagree with that You can ask him. I’ve met John by the way, so I Talked to him quite a bit If you listen to his meditation series, which is hard to find but it is still there You can hear him Talking about my role in the meditation series in the community Lazarus blamed Descartes Stories can help you develop adulthood refine might be a better word. Yeah Look, you can refine yourself using games of all types including video games. Just got to be careful with that and think one of the problems that we have is this Relentless sense of continually trying to redeem things and the problem is We can’t redeem that’s not up to us in The Protestant worldview they seem to think they can Or the Redemption is coming or that it’s automatic and it’s like I don’t think that’s how it works I Don’t sense of development a new chapter title. Okay Elizabeth. I don’t think that’s how it works I think the problem is that we want forgiveness to cause redemption and Then we want to ask it of others and for me forgiveness is very personal Right, like I forgive you so you don’t live rent-free in my head The only purpose of forgiveness doesn’t help anybody else but me and I’m fine with like I think that’s great And then Somebody’s quote sorry, they don’t say they’re sorry. They repent which is an action not a word not I’m sorry That’s not that’s not repentance. That’s you saying magical words and expecting magical results But I’m a pragmatist. I need to see results That are independently verifiable. So hopefully results that I’m not the only one that notices although maybe because We live in an imperfect world it turns out I’ve already told you And then maybe redemption will happen to you but that it’s not an earthly concern in my mind It’s an ethereal concern. So I don’t Redemption is not my business, but this constant idea that you know, oh well Hagel said this thing and it was wrong, but you should read him because maybe you shouldn’t maybe that’s wrong like maybe maybe you shouldn’t read for Cohen darada like maybe Whatever goodness is in them is not outweighed by the badness that’s in them Right, maybe maybe maybe right so you shouldn’t redeem them. You shouldn’t say well postmodernism has a point Maybe you shouldn’t do that. Like maybe you shouldn’t make that statement. Maybe that statement’s dangerous Because maybe somebody else get caught in the web, right? Maybe you shouldn’t entertain Karl Marx’s ridiculous ideas because they’re ridiculous. They’re the ideas of a three-year-old your average three-year-old Maybe not Maybe not Well Matthew I’m glad that John Vervecki is your intellectual hero, I wish you had a better one I know John’s worked pretty well You should check out his meditation series, although you should not meditate alone meditate with a group and We had a group. It was a great group To be other kicked us off the service didn’t really kick us out server together took away our ability to do group activities on the Surfer, which was what we were there for We would still be there but no Yeah, Elizabeth we’ll get sense of development as a chapter title I hope you’re keeping a list of these things and send them to me because I’m not gonna remember Class punk we need more good Peterson sphere discord servers. Oh, that’s a good one Discord servers That’s a not a bad idea. You want to run a Peterson sphere discord server? I’ll advertise it since we’ve got the website although we transition the website. So it’s in this Transitory state we change hosting providers to me From go daddy because go daddy sucks I also think p of shim would be happier spending more time on discord video chats than getting angry at stuff on twitter I don’t think so. I think anger is important and I think this deep sense of redemption Is why people have a problem with anger? Part of this idea of failure and part of this idea that anger is bad Is wrapped up in bf skinner’s work bf skinner’s a famous psychologist. It’s a lot of good work He did one very bad piece of work And That bad piece of work is around his positive only feedback so he has this thesis that roughly speaking is Negative feedback is bad for the person and you can just give people positive feedback and that works He tried for years to prove this every time he tried. He disproved it and his son tried he too Uh, this is very called Walden and Walden too And it failed every time it failed at every scale. It didn’t just fail at the scale of humans. It fails at every scale Uh, it fails for obvious reasons if you believe that evolutionary theory set because it’s a theory set It’s also a set of ideas and inferences and some of which are wrong and unprovable But if you believe that evolution is true Negative feedback is way more important than positive feedback and positive feedback is not necessary at all According to evolution like according to what darwin was writing about for sure Uh people miss that I don’t know how I don’t know what’s wrong with them. Also equality is also wrong quality is bad It’s what evolution necessitates um So yeah, it’s uh But I but I think we don’t like the angry signals bf skinner tells me we don’t need the negative signals so We try to redeem people and say oh no No, no, they don’t have to be negative or they shouldn’t be negative that’s actually just wrong technically incorrect Uh, and so we need somebody to be angry on twitter about things that people should get angry about So that we know which things we should be angry about because we’re suffering in a world where no one’s angry enough About the things they should be angry about That’s part of the problem of the world right now When somebody wants to disrupt your ability to get food You should be pissed When somebody tells you to eat bugs you should be pissed when somebody says you’ll own nothing and be happy You should be pissed And you should let everybody know that everybody else knows We should be angry at this. This is not okay How do I know it’s not okay? If you don’t show anger to me? I don’t know i’ll trample all over you and never know it and now You can say that’s on me, but i’m going to say it’s not I’m sorry, man. If you don’t give me a signal that i’m shouldn’t be doing something and I do it You’re gonna take some responsibility for that I may be the agent that did the thing I get that But if I don’t know that the thing’s good or bad, i’m just exploring We need negative signals Twitter may not be the best place for signals, but Lazarus but since you’re not on an island it does help others know if they know right away or not. Yeah, see everybody in individual land the solas land of the solas Everybody posits everything as though they’re on a desert island. It’s like why is that valid? Everybody posits everything from their perspective You’re pulling a lever Uh, do you pull the lever and kill one person or ten people? Because you’re the agent pulling the These are ridiculous questions And they shouldn’t be asked except in very specific contexts as part of a larger framework When you take them out of that context you blow up the world and you give people misimpressions of it Well, I suppose you see what i’m saying video games need redeeming, uh, yeah I don’t think they are condemned in the first place. I suppose. Yeah, I i’m not entirely condemning them but also problem Matthew redemption is on continuum of transformative experiences, you know This idea of transformative experience is very tricky, right because it’s a self-assessment self-assessments are typically wrong in psychology. We all know this Hmm and transformation might not be good could be bad right I am a felon. It took years for me to be redeemed in my family’s eyes and society’s eyes in my own eyes. Well I don’t Did you get redeemed or did you get Or did you repent because Going to prison is about repentance like specifically in the u.s in particular right so Yes, matthew, uh, there’s no Verveki without peterson at all. So peterson has to be more impactful also Verveki Takes a lot of stuff from peterson, uh rather explicitly by the way And yeah, that’s why it’s the peterson sphere and I went over this in a previous stream on uh, father eric’s channel actually Uh Verveki’s awakening from meaning crisis doesn’t happen without peterson Directly Directly peterson’s success in particular The person who recorded some of the maps and meaning stuff Went to verveki and said look what peterson did you they know each other right like I want to do this I did this for him. Let me do it for you No verveki without peterson also no discussion of meaning without peterson by anybody There’s no meaning crisis discussion without peterson opening up maps of meaning The the meaning discussion happens due to peterson. I’m i’m gonna outline that in an article on the peterson sphere Dot com website soon. I haven’t done it yet. Oh, I’m part of the way through it and we’ve got other articles coming father eric pastor paul All right, and and my buddy bruce manuel. We’re all gonna write some articles Jv affords me the ability to explain why Jp’s kitschy clean your room is psychologically pleasing who cares Uh, you don’t need to explain why you feel things you just need to feel them This Deep idea that explanation has some magical ability is just wrong you can just be happy you don’t need to know why Knowing why you’re sad won’t necessarily change your sadness Explanation is not required Sometimes it’s helpful, but most of the time it’s actually not And you’re distracting yourself with explanations And it’s like I said sometimes that distraction is worth it, but most of the time it’s actually not Right. I mean, this is the deep sort of knowledge of the stoics if you will or the wisdom of the stoics I should say the wisdom of the stoics is Yeah, doesn’t matter Still got to go through it I a lot of stoicism is doesn’t matter still got to go through it And that’s important and useful and the stoics are cool and i’m stoics. So good stuff Uh Agreed men without chests Benjamin Franklin is owning slaves the source of happiness. Why do you do this dude? Why why do you do this? Renting slaves seem to be much more comfortable Your framing is so weird. First of all, we’re all slaves and we all own slaves. We need to get over that Uh, I know everybody’s talking about chattel slavery look it up if you don’t know about it When they talk about slavery, but also that’s not the only form of slavery and it’s a stupid conversation Uh, you are a slave to the things you were born into And you’re a slave to the past that that Afforded you all the things you have today Sorry that happened to you you get over your trauma and move on with your life and be a stoic Because they they would tell you not to give a crap Elizabeth’s true here is true anger. You should be pissed. Yes coming after a sense of development You can’t develop without anger. I mean this is If I wanted to give any credit at all to the idea of opponent processing, which I don’t by the way That would be the credit I would give it I would say the Negative conflict and confrontation That comes from pushing back on things that should not be Or things that aren’t helpful in reality or helpful to relate to reality or relate to meaning Is a form of development and in that way Your opposition to things that are not good are not true and are not beautiful all three at once, please Um is a way to develop That is the happiest and most satisfied I can get about this idea of opponent processing which otherwise is Misreproachable idea that shouldn’t be entertained by anybody ever Because we are creatures of cooperation You want war opponent processing is how you get war all opponent processing will end in war and must end in war and cannot End any other way. I’m not a fan of war. I’m still a no on war So if you’re not a no on war opponent processing is fine with you says more about you and not about me Not simplistic it’s familiar and obvious starting point I agree with you We have to be Hey, I’m not doing it Benjamin, I’m not doing it Matthew interesting you think he wasn’t teaching that material without jp as a colleague or influence I think he said as much in a video I think that’s how I interpreted the video and that may not be a correct interpretation, but I actually I really think it is They obviously have a deep Love for one another they’ve had many deep discussions and Also the online aspect for sure I can tell you for sure Direct experience for sure. No online none. No no meaning crisis video series at all Without the rise of Peterson It would not have happened. No, no the people involved explicitly told me this quite clearly Yeah I think using a footnote to someone else know that no he won’t Peterson’s a very unique character. I’m gonna outline that my article So, yeah Knowledge and understanding is almost always intrinsically good. No and never actually never Knowledge is intrinsically evil, but can be Can be brought into goodness with great effort But basically especially the modern conception of knowledge Knowing all the things in the world and doing nothing is still doing nothing and doing things without knowing will still manifest goodness But the opposite is not true So, yeah, I think it’s a good thing to have a good understanding of the world Goodness, but the opposite is not true so No, it’s not good Goodness requires effort and knowledge is not effort Knowledge is mostly a distraction and and and that’s the problem is that it’s mostly a distraction And I our modern conception knowledge in the age of gnosis as I call it on twitter Our modern conception is very much wrapped in around Propositions That is the propositional tyranny that john bravicki talks about we agree on that. There is a propositional tyranny And it is due to the age of gnosis where we’re placing knowledge as propositions as the highest value and I Think john is brilliant in that he fights that by saying pretty sure knowing There are specific reasons why I think that’s brilliant. Even though he’s not describing knowing he’s describing information And information is super dangerous. We have a flood of information with the internet. So the internet is it’s a flood technically speaking If you want to know more about that, you can read mature peggio’s excellent book language of creation Where he talks about the flood and the pattern of the flood? And uh, yeah, look man, maybe a few footnotes elizabeth and I want to know who’s this someone else Where are these footnotes coming from? Who’s who’s peterson a footnote too? That’s the that’s the question I agree the phenomenological landing point is a phenomenological landing point I have no idea who how is he gonna be a footnote if you don’t know who he’s a footnote to Slave to yourself slave to yourself and others matthew slave to yourself and and your past and the and the past that you never knew because you weren’t there right like It if you’re If you’re in england In england You’re a slave to the building practices that were developed there and never changed some of which are better than the ones in the u.s. By the way, but Not many only a few uh best because we came later, right and we came out of we took all the best stuff out of england to a large extent Lazarus one huge thing jp did to correct young was to get rid of young’s collective unconscious As god and to point up rather than down That’s interesting. I didn’t i’ve never thought of it that way. Uh, That sounds right I don’t Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I think there still is a collective unconscious, but that’s a tougher It’s a tougher fish to fry If if it’s some kid that comes after peterson how’s peterson a footnote Hmm Class punk my problem with trying to run a peterson sphere server is too complex for me bother to explain in text Small part of it. I don’t want to do The moderation. Well, yeah, that’s the problem. God bless the moderators. That’s the problem. My friend leadership is hard requires all kinds of responsibility and uh, nobody wants to do it Nobody wants to take responsibility that is the one failing will say or at least my main failing for for peterson Is he doesn’t want to have responsibility and neither just pizho and neither just For veki and you know, none of these guys want responsibility Matthew interesting, I think knowledge implies a body. No, it doesn’t which implies action. Uh, Nope body implies potential. Uh, it doesn’t apply action sensory motor loop No such thing Perception is action. Nope. Perception is not an action perception is Specifically an unaction. In fact, I would argue that a flow state is in fact When you’re so active That your perception changes And is limited in your action So is it you have a cognitive load? That cognitive load gets manipulated by your action in the moment and that changes your ability to perceive And you become ultra focused on the thing you’re doing that can be very good or it can kill you either way And it kills people all the time flow state is not a good thing Interesting info info versus sharing Matthew navigating patterns knowledge engine John is aware of this model. He doesn’t like it. Um Uh that that’ll that should straighten you out On uh the difference between knowledge and information and if it doesn’t put a comment on the video, let me know Uh, because I didn’t make the point. That’s fine I think on reeks touches on info as purgatory knowledge. I don’t know. I’m at my edge here. Yeah, on reeks is an interesting character. Um A little nutty. I like him though. We’ve talked to him a couple times. It’s a great guy Really friendly love his love his work too. So it’s really interesting. Um um John is talking about knowledge but describing information The you need to insert a hierarchy And you need to get rid of participatory because that’s not a type of knowledge or information Uh, it’s the way we frame things roughly speaking See that knowledge engine video for more And you know, let me know I want to improve on that video and I never get comments I feel are worthy enough to improve that particular slides deck And I do still have those slides. I should improve those slides. I got more slide videos coming Although a bunch of technical problems my laptop blew up my battery almost lit on fire. That was fun Uh, so we’re trying to uh resolve all that I got a new battery get some more storage of my laptop because it’s desperately lacking Yeah, all kinds of things Lazarus, there’s still a collective Corbin calls it Sophia. Oh interesting the world soul which points down Yeah, not a not a fan of these people. Um, this stuff is way too easy to have philosophers doing it um Matthew welcome Thank you. Thank you. Hello Good to see you You want to talk about verveky? I’m somewhat of a We could talk about whatever you’ve you said enough stuff That I disagree with pretty blatantly that I was just like, okay I gotta I gotta give this guy my attention. So i’ve i’ve definitely seen you a couple a couple different spots. Um, Though I will say this as the quote-unquote verveky nerd of this, you know what I still calls tlc I know you don’t think that’s a thing that we could talk about that because i’ve had thoughts on that here even recently um I am impressed that you you you do seem about as well uh Baked in and verveky speak and and his uh, you know his his uh, you know Kind of worldview he lays out worldview. He lays out and uh his awakening from the mean crisis I’ve watched it multiple times multiple times. So um, that’s definitely my go-to um, but but even just even just you say um I guess I think you may have misunderstood me when you say When you say when I say, uh Knowledge implies a body. Um, yeah, I just I think maybe we’re misunderstanding each other or talking past each other I I don’t quite understand how you’re refuting that um, and then I would also say the other one that I was just like I kind of threw my hands up was the um Perception is not action. Like these are just like fundamental beliefs in my life to to I mean we can go with the basic biological notion of you know, the the The way you’re the way you’re uh, the way you take in light through these these uh, uh, uh, you know optical uh organs here um is is through a rapid vibration and and and and an alter and I think it’s an off rhythm of them and and then an inversion of the of the light It’s way more complex than I can I have I have uh, you know much to understand But we have we have to think but the fact to think that that’s not some kind of active sensory motor loop You know, maybe it’s not some kind of agentic thing but but no We can draw a distinction between agency and action. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we we Yeah, there’s a distinction between agency actually two different words, right? It’s easy. That’s easy, right two different words means two different things It’s not that hard, right? Okay Which is not to say that any word is valid which is a different problem, right? But those are old words agency and action old concepts and they’re old words So we can draw that line. I would say that without an agent there is no action That gets problem. That’s a problem right there Freak out. I think you just put your finger on on kind of what I was kind of hinting at actually, okay Okay the act of perceiving something Right or the action of Like my perception and we can use we can use eyes. It’s something I happen to know about right? I mean, they’re the organ of perception, right? There is but there’s but there’s no action in other words You can’t tell what i’m seeing right now And I can’t tell what i’m not seeing right now And so there’s a limit of agency on both sides and that’s why it’s not an action Right. So an action has to be something that can be independently agreed upon by multiple agents In other words, it has to be outside of you So I have a live stream about this right where and people went after me because my my I feel like you’re attacking Solipsism I think I see where go go ahead solipsism, but but also they they they attacked they went after me They said what about meditation because they know i’m a big fan of meditation I did for making meditation series, right and I said no meditation is absolutely not an action And how dare you? Right. I was like, oh you’re gonna trap me that easily. Did you right? But also In the east just listen to what they say The the striving for meditation in the eastern literature is quite clear. It’s no action That’s the goal of a good meditation in zen Yeah, okay, okay, it’s explicitly not an action according to the people, you know in the east that you think you’re know something about In the west we don’t by the way, that’s right I think I understand the the the confusion here then and and I think I would understand where The west this is where i’m gonna I mean where I go from is well, there’s there’s a western left left brain kind of pattern uh Pattern recognition that’s taking place and and what you’re saying is is your because what you’re saying is precise is technically and precisely correct And what what happens is it gets filtered and interpreted through this is my opinion on this I’m kind of my edge here with this lens it gets filtered through this western left brain kind of uh, You know has to have have the abstraction and notion of it. And so we say Okay, yeah, we get it’s the the idea that is is uh to not act but it’s still this ritualistic Action and so I think that’s where the where the where the I guess you would say kind of talking past each other But but I I understand what you’re saying. I think your point holds. I think your point holds. Okay. Yeah Yeah, so because and I would go further I would go further just to tie in a little bit of jv there would be like That that is that that is that uh participatory kind of uh, you know anthropological, uh, uh Perspectival changing you’re actually going and doing the practice and taking from the word from the culture that is that is produced this this uh phenomena this this uh, you know Human human phenomena that that you can that you can participate in. I mean at least you would say you participate in meditation Yeah, I don’t I don’t I don’t know that john would go that far. He he might I don’t I don’t think so I think I think the participation Is not in say the meditation the participation might be in the sangha. I think I think for sure That’s what he would say for sure Um, in fact, I think he said that um, the participation is in the sangha Participation is not in the dharma, right? Which is the knowledge. It’s not in the teaching the participation is in the community roughly speaking and and that’s why You know the sangha is so important to john roughly speaking, right and then Having built the meditation community Around his meditation series Uh, you know john and i’ve had conversations about this, right? Um That participation is deeply meaningful to people like that’s the thing that’s meaningful is the manifestation Of the community around the ritual around the activity Ergo ergo don’t meditate alone meditate with other people like you said, right? It’s interesting. It’s very very important Well, I will say this I will say this just let me do the perspectival lived experience thing That’s as far as I got before On my journey back to christianity that’s how that’s where I got and where my story broke and then i’ll let you know Uh, mr. Punk speak. I feel like i can hog the monkey um I was I was doing uh, I was I was on you know, very much uh the A zen kind of a buddhist cognitive i’ve had already encountered john john’s work But I was already on that route with you know, different alan wats, uh entry points and all this different stuff Um, and the the last hurdle for me was going to a community was going to uh, uh, uh, there was a a couple temples in in the northern florida area I was at and It it didn’t work, you know, I can go down to different details of it But it it didn’t it didn’t work out and I ended up taking honestly in a very bare bones way I ended up taking a lot of what I had learned and and and and the the The meditation the meditation styles and and and practices it just took them into what you know Was raised a catholic just took them back into a catholic church, you know hours before mass And was like hey man, this feels like this was kind of designed for this anyways now I’m still alone at that point But there’s still the church community and people coming in and and I just stayed in church at that point, you know And it kind of uh, it kind of went along seamlessly with my philosophical, you know Obviously you could probably get I care about the philosophical rigor and stuff too And it kind of went seamlessly along with it, you know, just uh this this uh transformation for me Well, I guess i’ll say I do meditate alone, but It’s not coming from a place of of something. I invented it’s coming from studying a lot of Tradit well different traditions and stuff. It’s it um It’s coming from distributed cognition. It’s not it’s not something I just made up It’s coming from a lot of trial and error From taking different teachers that are way more skilled than me Way more experienced than me. So I think that’s important distinction Well, no But it but it’s going to end in solipsism because it can’t end any other way. That’s the that’s the problem It’s like you because it man we had a discussion on the market wisdom discord surf about this uh, you know this this whole week basically which is Self-transcendence as a term doesn’t make any sense. It’s it’s complete nonsensical garbage like anybody that says that they’re a sorcerer And they’re trying to sorcerer you You can’t self-transcend. It doesn’t the references don’t work in the language. It’s a breaking of the language Well, you wouldn’t know if it happened anyway And that’s the issue like you can’t measure your own progress from where you’re standing. That doesn’t make any sense It doesn’t work in gauge theory. It’s unscientific All right, so you don’t know if you’re getting better or worse that you don’t know There’s no way for you to know look at look at steve jobs steve job is a famous Famous for having gone and stayed he stayed a whole six months. I’m like six months What the hell is that six months in india under a guru under a well-known guru is a good guy from from from what I remember and He’s more of a jerk when he gets back. He thinks he’s better though. Listen to him. He’ll tell you i’m freaking awesome Man, I was six months under this guru and I meditate every day and now i’m great This was the point jacob made or had made, you know, uh Times before or something but but had recently been highlighted of the distributed cognition thing is is one of the biggest home runs That jv has is and and you’re absolutely right. It’s the peterson notion of you you you you You participate insanity by by by the society society is how it’s how you’re you know, regulating or or any kind of uh, Feedback on whether you’re a sane person or an insane person. I think you’re hey Let me just tell you just to get to your horror I love the the gage theory concept like my that that exploded in my brain when you said that because you’re it’s such a great Just uh taking the two fields in the in the convergence there. It’s like if I am the gage. Oh, then how can the gage? Reference myself. It’s you just nailed it But I will say this I brought just to do another two, uh shout out to jacob I had brought up a uh, you know me and him me and him are kind of brave and we’ll touch the political barely I think I think we both are still uh Ha ha ha ha wise enough to understand, you know the futility and kind of you know, the strict strict narrow purpose of in fun, you know, uh, and ability of those kind of conversations, but but i’ll say is is that uh, I mentioned that as well in like the individual the individuality kind of aspect and I guess I would He kind of did the pezionian move of like properly nested. There’s a there’s a there’s a there can be a useful and and uh, fruitful notion of the individual and what that means but but on on the whole I I take your your framing of it much much more. Uh, I think is much more valuable and it’s much more holistically Just inherently it’s just like that never that that doesn’t exist. It doesn’t ever work. It’s it’s just it’s It’s taking a hammer and hitting everything as a hammer and then like it worked for a little while and a little political And I don’t want to get off of that. But go ahead. Oh, I I would just say it’s okay if we if we partly disagree, but I would say that in my view the The measurement of the progress can be found in some of the teachings for example, the ribu gita says that Bliss is the measure of consciousness and it’s referring to the sanskrit word ananda when it’s saying bliss And I could go into theories on that but I don’t want to get too deep into into theoretical territory with this for sure Like seriously like if you want bliss just shoot up some heroin problem I was gonna say and I was gonna say some self-deception. That’s where my brain was gonna go to mark was I was gonna say There is a risk there of oh definitely I agree with that. I do Again, that’s the that’s the gauge issue. Like what are you measuring against? You you can’t do it You can’t measure you against you. It doesn’t it doesn’t work It’s it’s it’s the To the to the extent that you are The the the single individual entity, you know and to the extent that that’s useful to to abstract and to chew on uh, you You You have to you have to you have to have a complex system that you are participating as well Allah a community Allah the sangha Allah a church Allah a wisdom fellowship that is that is engaging in interfacing with that complex system to to uh To ameliorate and navigate. I love your I love your name navigating patterns man That just hits right to the fundamental fundamentality of jp verveky and peugeot. I mean just nails it But it’s to to ameliorate and navigate these these self-deceptive ish because it’s it’s the jv It’s the jv mantra. It’s like what makes you adaptive and rational and and and this special this special creature Is the exact same things that go wrong the exact same systems and and dynamics that that will lead to Deception and destruction and so you you it takes effort. I loved your highlighting earlier of effort as well mark that’s one of my street wisdoms that i’ve still kept with me is like Uh, you know, I one of the things that went wrong in my young childhood I didn’t have to try it anything and and boy life adulthood once I had to try that smacked up that smacked me gentleman Oh, so um, can you have a a sufficient amount of To get a little socratic a sufficient amount of pre-recorded information or teaching around a subject that it could answer enough of your questions to Be almost as good as a community or even better if the community no a community is live feedback, dude A community is a lie. What if information is not alive? It’s a dead transmission It’s dead. It’s fundamentally different What if the teach the teachers in the community don’t match up to the teachers in the in the recorded information? And they’re not gonna ever recorded information is dead the minute the minute I mean Socrates and clito and and ariestotle had this this discussion allegedly right like maybe socrates isn’t real But like they had this discussion What things do you write down and what things do you not write down? Why because when you write it down, it’s wrong immediately and it just gets more wrong And one way to look at this is to say physics is correct about entropy entropy is real I believe entropy is real and that means anytime you write anything down or record anything It dies immediately Entropy sets in immediately now. It may not be enough entropy that it matters Right like meat doesn’t rot instantly when you shoot the deer. It’s not like you can’t eat the meat Right, so but but but it will Right. It will and it’s the same for words. It’s the same for those things and you’re not getting feedback from them And so yes when I read a book I get very satisfied like let me give you a story this is fantastic. So this australian friend of ours Um, maybe he’ll jump on the stream. I don’t know if he’s watching busy today. Maybe It’s not jesse. It’s a different australian. I have lots of australian friends for some reason He was really it looked like he was reading this book and what he was saying was unbelievable to me. Okay It’s this guy ferguson, I think it’s william ferguson who wrote this book in 1962 Where he’s talking about men? Manorial powers in the man the power of the manner and he’s classifying. He’s describing feudalism Classifying it as something else which is just wrong like when you’re describing the thing you just classify it as the thing You don’t make up a new a new name. That’s ridiculous. I just want to be a cool philosopher Right. Well, it’s worse than that. The guy’s a historian apparently In the book in the book he’s writing well At this certain time period of history roughly the mid 1600s to the late 1700s For some reason economically speaking northern germany stops expanding and in fact fields go foul You know farrow, right? And we may never have an explanation for it and he’s reading these words and i’m going like Isn’t isn’t that like The period of the plague and uh, and and I looked it up and i’m like, oh, yeah, there’s the plague You know, uh was it 1394 to whatever or 1376? Sorry to whatever and I was like, all right. So it’s the it’s this same time period And there’s a population that’s going to be like So it’s the it’s this same time period And there’s a population collapse and this guy’s like economically speaking We’ll never know why this happened and i’m like and he wrote this book and he published it and i’m kind of like Okay, and then people read this book And like I don’t You didn’t you didn’t know You know And they didn’t or or you can look at at plato’s cave and that video is coming I pro it’s done I think it’s done. It’s in the editor’s hands. You can look at plato’s cave an argument with somebody on twitter I said plato’s cave is an individualistic blah escape the and I said no, it’s not Go get me the references. It’s a book grab the book Grab a copy of the book Okay, I have mine right here in the book There’s little numbers With little letters next to them Show me where in the independent thing from you and me because we can both have a copy of the same book this this mystical individualism is because Parable plato’s cave book seven is about the polar opposite of individualism. It’s actually An outline of the class system why the class system is there why you can’t do anything about it and why The wisest people among us the true philosophers they call them, right? have to be abused For their good works and the answer is for the good of the city not for the good of themselves because it’s not good for them Everybody reads this damn thing and somehow misinterprets it and the interesting thing about this twitter guy was Two two interesting things. The first thing is he responds to me with a quote from somebody else He didn’t give the reference. He just gave the quote And the quote was clearly wrong. I’m sorry. That’s not in the book Okay The end the other interesting thing is I said Looking for your references go get me the little numbers with the little letters afterwards to prove your point because it’s a book We can both reference the same thing Okay He came back and said oh my goodness. You’re right. We’re effed which I thought was interesting. What do we do? Right and so this whole time He told me he had read it multiple times this whole time. He thought he knew what that said Until somebody outside of him challenged him and said this satisfying thing that you read that matches your expectations That gave you comfort that you thought you learned something from You misread it That comfort was false And how do you know you don’t know until somebody like me who’s disagreeable i’m willing to stand up And and ready willing and able to say no you’re wrong and be mean as people call it He didn’t know he was on the wrong path and he was screwed Scorube he thought he was gonna break free like the freaking matrix movie. That’s what he thought Well, oh go ahead Where where that took where my brain went with that is first of all, I I mostly I mostly agree mark I mostly agree is that uh, first of all the dynamic system of the community and and and the the the the death of of of Not embodied not not uh, not uh, uh This organic lit I mean that will that suffer The the the death of of frozen your slogans is what it made me made me think of you know The jp move of sloganeering is you know, these these sayings of the dead Um, but it also reminded me too of is in this made I don’t know how this will land with you But you know here comes the christianity as I always like to do the disclaimer as the new christian Is the spiritual nature of of like you said is is the the the the spoken word Is there’s something magical about that. There’s something really there’s something there’s something else there. There’s something, you know You’re really you’re really chewing and wrestling and engaging with reality But as soon as like you said as soon as it’s it’s etched in time. It’s frozen. There’s there’s this now it’s it’s subject to It’s it’s it’s subject to the to what I would call the the original sin of combinatorial explosivity It’s it’s it’s now cannot compete with the dynamic nature of reality. And then the other thing I would say also is that Just again here comes the christianity you you mentioned you mentioned the republic there It’s like the the notion of the individual that where that that small narrow Uh lane that kind of has in the western society that comes from jesus christ that comes from that comes from uh, the the philosophical And you know social and metaphysical impact of you know that notion of the of the individual You know stacking and participating in the christianism story So I I just I just read the republica Re-read the republic about a month ago and and you’re and you’re absolutely right. It’s it it That’s that’s not going on in gree in greek. The individual is not going on in greece. Okay, uh, that’s right that time. That’s right Uh, there’s no individuality in in the republic at all. It denies it as a frame It specifically points out that even if even if there are individuals or something, I guess useless It’s a useless idea and I guess I would just maybe I could tag onto that is that You know the socratic move of that is is I think Well, I guess you can have the christian notion too of is you know He was worried about I think the atrophy the atrophy of of you know, uh, the pursuit of wisdom the atrophy of of you know The uh of the you know man’s rationale You know, because I think it was socrates was another representative that you know was against writing writing, uh, writing things down And so it’s and I think pageau and and the christian uh perspective on that is the garments of skin It’s it’s the double-edged sword of technology It’s right whatever technology extends and can afford into reality It also atrophies and has it has that that that backwards effect on you and without being wise and properly oriented that boy does the tech may get out of hand and you lose the the the magical artisanship of of the Like you said the the living relationship the living engagement with the idea or the practice or the it needs to be revivified And that’s the problem revivification revivification. Hopefully we’ve addressed it lazard’s question Are we complaining self the individual there are different words. Yeah. No, we’re not complaining Self is a ridiculous concept and should be done away with immediately Individualism more ridiculous concept that should also be done away with immediately. You’re not an individual. You were never an individual You’re never going to be an individual. You’re never going to have been an individual that didn’t happen and it’s not going to happen It’s not the world you live in Well here I guess I guess where I could try and be let me try and be the disagreeable person and just push back on some maybe recent his historical kind of Analysis, do you think it’s at least served its purpose in that narrow lane for the time period of the you know the last 200 300 years of liberalism, you know Late protestant like do you do you at least can you at least grasp with what they were doing? What john lock was trying to grasp with like, you know, like yeah, I think kind of throw the bone to you Yeah, I think I think that that’s what created all the problems and so you look at enlightenment or whatever But like at the end of the day And and I don’t think lock and those guys had that problem Like if you actually read some of their stuff and I haven’t read all their stuff by any means if you read their stuff It’s all couched in god All of it. Yes. Oh, it’s a little weird. Like that was the other thing about the republic Full of religious references Like everywhere if you’re thinking it’s some pure philosophical text like oh my goodness I don’t know if you read it the ability that our species is able to memory whole stuff I I love the graham hankok notion of the amnesic amnesic Species. I love that notion. I don’t know whether his Geographical happens all the time like you just said like the dark ages were dark Like I know peugeot isn’t like actually they were it’s not that and it’s not that the knowledge was gone But some of the knowledge was useless Like you don’t need to build an aqueduct when your village size is small and you don’t have cities Would you at least agree? Would you at least compromise with peugeot and say that there was at least a certainly an asserted Propaganda attack on on on the church in that time period as well though with the protestant of course there was okay Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that’s and that’s part of the problem is there’s there’s all of these attacks It’s so it’s so messy everything so can give it so Well, and we try to this is why this is why knowledge is a trap like we try to to knowledge our way to an understanding And we you know, actually I want to I want to I write so i’m going to read something you go ahead I’m gonna you just reminded me of something. I read or I wrote a little while back. Let me find it once quick Okay But but that’s the problem of knowledge like you you you probably aren’t knowledgeable enough to understand these things And like a lot of people have been told they’re way smarter than they are And i’d be I mean like several orders of magnitude Okay here it is to your to your notion and this is me kind of compromising with you because this was our disagreement was was knowledge of Because man has not a solution not a single one You’re not gonna like this. The meta problem was to ever get existentially confused into a mode of being of seeking solutions We are here to care and to play right No, that’s that’s that’s true. Yeah. No, I still hate the word matter. But yeah Right. Oh, it’s wrong focus, right focusing when you start focusing on abstractions And focusing on abstractions is useful and has to be done Sometimes when you start focusing on abstractions, you just focus on more and more abstractions That’s when you get into trouble because now you’re not acting in the world and you know You’re not paying attention to your impact. Let’s suppose you you let’s suppose you think like I um, I am super stoic Borderline zen dude. I am not having an impact on the world. That’s never happening You’re always impacting to me. It sounds like two things you’re describing and then i’ll let andre go ahead and come Because like I said, I don’t want to hog the mic I can I can my extra version can hug but um, it sounds like if you’ve ever heard of oswald spangler, uh decline of the What’s his socratic man? uh, you know when when the socratic man comes on on the scene of the culture and starts like you said and what I think he’s he’s Highlighting and I think what’s your highlight why I think the ideas are converging for me is The overtaking of the left brain side the overtaking of oh this it’s it’s kind of this navel gazing of the it’s what the catholic Said but where the rationale the catholic notion of but where it’s it’s it’s I think what you’re articulating And and I think there’s some wisdom in that is that At the end of the day the way my brain says is that the is the peugeot move is at the end of the day You have to phenomenologically care. You have to go you have to go out there participate. You have to go out there and And and embody, you know, remember embody shout out grim grids Go ahead andrew Unless you I don’t want to put you on the spot either. I’m just trying to get caught up. Okay. You’re cool I uh mark and I have have talked uh in text about meditation a little bit. Um But I don’t know. I’m a little ocd and I and I so I want to say that I feel a slight guilt for uh, it’s not Talking more about failure and being on topic Oh, that’s okay. That’s not a problem. We don’t we don’t stick to topics here necessarily, but but I mean It’s all wrapped up in that concept right because we’re really talking about the difference between That space of success versus failure, right? And that’s what that’s the exploratory space is what I’d probably call it, right? I Don’t know it’s um, I just said i’ll just say real quick. It’s definitely something I’ve had a lot of experiences with meditation. I’ve been doing it since 2008 and it’s and it’s really really difficult to um To bring that into a in a space into a space of of evidence and reason To take these experiences and bring them into a space of evidence. I struggled Right when you shouldn’t you shouldn’t try. I mean, that’s the the whole the whole Well, it gets you out of the trap of logic reason rationality logic reason rationality create closed worlds they can’t do anything else They they right. They are a video game. That is true But the world isn’t made up of logic reason rationality. Those aren’t the primary modes It’s probably I don’t know this for sure. It’s probably something like faith hope and love And this goes to mcgillchrist’s point. I know this is a big mcgillchrist fan Yep, dr mcgillchrist says knowledge is left hemisphere positive feedback loop once you get a little hit of knowledge It’s like a little hit of heroin baby and then you want more and more and the next thing, you know You’re paying attention to the abstract knowledge of the world and not to your impact in it So you can go again. I’m the zen guy. I’m not impacting the world. So you’re definitely impacting the world, dude Definitely right and then what you’re not paying attention to that because you’re wait, maybe you’re like, oh I’m paying attention to the climate. I’m not paying attention to the freaking climate. You’re a muppet You can’t pay attention to the climate Any more than I can pay attention to the state of all particle physics at every moment in time like ridiculous, right? And so you get caught up in the knowledge Well, I have the knowledge electric cars are going to take over the world even though the math says it’s not even remotely ever going To happen, right? I’ve got the knowledge that that what? That the trash that I throw out matters and so i’m only going to throw the plastic in the plastic Like this is garbage. What are you actually doing? You’re destroying the world by recycling because recycling is a scam except for tin metals And glass there’s only two things that are economically recyclable. Everything else makes the environment worse everything Right, and so you think that you’re abstractly paying attention to the climate and saving the world When your actions on the ground are doing the exact opposite and you have been tricked by people to believe that This is the trap of knowledge. They give you the knowledge It sounds right to you, but actually it’s not right. They’re just lying and most of them know they’re lying Some of them don’t there’s a lot of useful idiots who like you have been fooled into believing that Climate is the thing and we can pay attention to it and it’s not just climate Right, it’s any number of things and we get trapped in this knowledge knowledge knowledge abstraction because all knowledge is an abstraction from participation and we’re and we’re not in the participation Participation gives us a different form of information that we can use to create knowledge So you can consume knowledge Or you can create knowledge That’s up to you And the creation of knowledge is non-propositional by definition propositions do not create knowledge They either convey knowledge or they well, they only convey knowledge. It could be in or out, right? So you need to participate in the world to get those signals which turn into information That tell you where you are that orient you in the world so that you can properly Navigate the patterns of reality. That’s why it’s called navigating patterns Would mark would you say that if you try and logic or rationalize the things that are happening during meditation What you’re doing you’re changing from participatory knowledge or just me participation into proper propositional knowledge Because you’re taking the experience of what’s happening to you in the moment and you’re trying to form information out of it And useful information rather than say sensation You’re trying to throw premises at it and say Okay. Well, I felt this feeling I saw like this blue orb like what’s the blue orb? What does it mean? How does it relate to me? You’re trying to identify with it like straight away when it’s something Perhaps not identify which you’re not supposed to do explicitly in meditation as well said Yeah, you’re not supposed to do that. Absolutely meditation like even in john’s series series He talks about the john’s john’s meditation, by the way is fantastic. It really is right He talks about this like you’re supposed to experience and let go And that sounds a lot like the orthodox when they talk about miracles or you know experience, right? Sounds a lot like the catholics too when they talk about right? Doesn’t sound like the uh, like the pentacostals at all. Uh, it’s just not a coincidence. I’m sure uh, but like The the eastern idea and we have a very alan wats view of the world like as near as I can tell Well, hey alan wats is wrong about everything his total misinterpretation of the east complete flat out And you can look this up the discussion about western buddhism not eastern buddhism. It’s just wrong, right? He he seems to be studying with a bunch of exiles from the countries that he’s studying from That should be a little hint Why are these people exiled from india from china from wherever and why is why are they here in the u.s? Because they were heretics to the buddhist Philosophy or however you want to say or spirituality? That’s why they’re exiled. And so you already have somebody translating the heretical ideas of people who were exiled into some new thing so that the westerns can understand it and it becomes western buddhism, which is just Like I don’t I don’t understand like I love john Uh, but like I don’t understand he has he never talked to a first generation chinese person about buddhism Because when you talk about that when you talk about it in western terms, they’re like no, bro That’s wrong and they’ll tell you why and how like it’s not that much of a mystery They’re like nah that you’re not understanding the tau correctly. You’re not understanding the idea of Of no thingness correctly, right? Because it’s just a bad translation at the end of the day, right? You’re not understanding these concepts Uh, because they’ve been mistranslated And and maybe that’s the best translation that you can do but to andre’s point When you propositionize something you reduce it and you to some extent dissect it and destroy it and kill it And that’s a problem Like I I can’t explain to you my experience doing savoring for example Uh outside I can’t explain it to you in any way that will have any relationship to you I just want to say real quick any meditation teaching Um that’s ever existed though Is propositional which means somebody Went and and did that and so if they can do it Why can’t you possibly do it better even though you’re never going to do it perfectly? That was going to be my point as well as john does make the distinction and specifically in his You know many series is the the the language of training versus the language of explaining mark And then the second is first. Oh, yeah, the first thing I wanted to start was Congratulations mark is on moving me on you know in a socratic way with this conversation on the notion of love knowledge is intrinsically good I was a great that was great. That’s in an hour or so. We’ve you’ve definitely moved me off of compromise I understand your point, uh much much better now But anyway, but it was to back to to where we just were is and then the other thing was I would I would also To try and defend jv to the little, you know, i’m off the edge of you know, my my knowledge here as well to you know To be too fair. Uh, um, you know the the the to the extent of the eastern philosophies that i’m i’m read I’m not that well read. Um, you know, uh Or that I would that I would uh stand up stand on that, you know You know, I was very young and in beginning in those stages of uh, you know trying on that part of my spiritual journey But what I would say is jv definitely Is he’s the one thing he harps as that? Uh, first of all, he does does uh reference nishatani That’s that’s one of his one of his specific go-to’s. Um, uh, but but he does reference the zin cohen As as one of the one of the pinnacles in in that paradoxical way of the propositions that take you out of the propositional mark So I think that would be to trying to to steal man his and i’m not saying you were completely To critique someone as not to attack someone but right anyways, that would be my two cents Yeah, I think that I think the problem is that it’s easy to make a statement like It’s possible that if somebody conveys to me the ways of meditation that I can improve on it Okay, you didn’t say anything. I mean that technically technically you didn’t make a statement of any comport Like the fact that something’s possible is not an interesting statement. I know that Everybody knows that Right. The the problem with it is that conveying that is dangerous Because now you’re giving somebody the impression that they can do that And the problem is maybe they can’t The fact that something’s possible doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, right and how would they know? right because While that may be true at the group layer. In other words if you give 500 people a meditation book one of them might be able to improve on that communication That’s not true the individual layer at all ever It’s a false statement at that layer of analysis and the way john’s been Talking about that is modal confusion I don’t think that’s a correct way to talk about it. I’ve used other ways to talk about it like oh abstraction versus particular Um, that’s the way everybody else has always talked about it. But whatever We had this discussion did very discussion like three hours ago on my server by the way Uh, just because uh john did a conversation with pvk and I was like, what do you you’re you’re not describing Modal anything you’re describing the difference between the abstract in the particular But the abstract always holds true in some sense, right like according to physics according to physics not quantum physics either classical physics You can walk through a a piece of steel three foot thick that is possible Unfortunately, it takes you know some trillion to the trillions attempts before it will happen Statistically, this is the dangerous statistics, but according to particle physics That can happen Right, but the fact that it can happen doesn’t help you to walk through the three foot thick Thing like i’m sorry So the fact that it’s possible and that physics says it will happen because it will Doesn’t have a bearing on your existence at all And and people get confused and if you want to call that modal confusion, I guess you can I don’t I don’t find it useful. It’s a calling it modal confusion but It’s wrong to think that way Well again, my my instinct again is to just kind of defend jv there’s the reason I think is is it’s the having of the propositions versus the being in in the The the stance that it takes to actually transform and learn and have the growth and development that those kind of spiritual philosophical Practices like meditation can can afford but again he’s but he’s talking specifically about the confusion between The thing that could happen as the result of a large number Versus the thing that could happen to you as a single entity And and that’s why I keep saying individuals don’t exist right because nothing can happen to you alone Statistically, it’s like that joke about the man who wants to commit suicide instead of jumping from the 40 Story building he jumps from a one story building 40 times and at some point he’s like well, what if I changed my mind? Like yes, it’s possible and it’s possible after the 40th jump he can die but If you’re relying on those numbers then it’s incredibly improbable Just like walking walking through it like a steel beam using new turning mechanics I don’t I don’t disagree with this with um statistical and probability um, and I would and I would say that you you need um Science as robust as possible to to prove that you’re not to get out of the extract to try to get out of the abstraction And no science can’t get out of the abstraction science is all about abstractions Science doesn’t work on the level of the of the single It doesn’t actually function there at all. Like I I have a video on metaphorical versus literal truth Right and in that video on navigating patterns. It’s the greatest youtube channel ever Uh, I basically have the thesis that the thing that doesn’t exist is literal truth It’s a it’s a it’s a dead concept from the word go and I and I have a proof in that video of why that is the case Right, it’s a paradoxical term. It’s a paradoxical term. Go ahead. Well, I just say it’s It’s pretty difficult to argue that propositions are absolute truth Right, but again, but again, right that that doesn’t matter the confusion is in between what you As a single person because you’re not an individual can do versus what could happen I think what could happen is usually a statement about a group of people and a statistical likelihood It’s not a statement about your capabilities And your experience it’s not about that and you cannot derive your capabilities and your experience from a statement about what would happen from a group And again, if you want to call that modal confusion you can I guess I I don’t I don’t see the modality in that But that is a confusion everybody seems to have it, right? This is why people are like well elon musk man And look, I mean i’ve met lots of people like this especially on discord, which is ironic But I met lots of people like this. They’re like, well, i’m as smart as elon musk I don’t argue with them that they’re as smart as elon musk. I don’t know elon musk and I don’t know them That could be true right what I argued to them is that yeah, but you won’t sleep under your desk And you know what they do. They all go you’re right and i’m like well then You shouldn’t expect to be as successful as elon musk if you can’t do all of the things that elon musk does But that is definitely one of them And so the the the knowledge aspect of elon musk is completely irrelevant to his success I will argue that all day long and if you don’t believe that Tell me whether or not you believe trump is smart or stupid A lot of people think trump is stupid and I would be like, all right Then that proves you don’t need knowledge or intelligence to be successful at least not monetarily right? That’s what that proves And I can point to any number of other people for that example and go man This guy ain’t so bright and and and nasim taleb in his books talks about this There’s a trader who trades in green lumber. He doesn’t know what green lumber is He actually thinks green lumber is something other than what it actually is But he’s a super successful trader. Why because the knowledge is not relevant It’s not relevant. What’s relevant is the experience And the doing and the being mode stuff the having mode stuff, which is propositional and knowledge-based is not actually important It just doesn’t matter at all I I would say is there is something to be said about the idea of um for for example for modal confusion raising the chance of of success in for example to give an example, um, I I started writing a novel and um years ago and I had Deluge I was delusional and thought oh i’m gonna, you know be a best seller and and that kind that Drove me to finish the book. The book was terrible but but it Good for you drove me Good for you But I don’t think I would have finished it if I didn’t if I didn’t have if I hadn’t revved myself up on I think sure what modal confusion? So I think that there’s something to be said about but that’s not necessarily modal confusion Right. That’s just you thinking you can do something that you can’t do right and look Everything you haven’t ever done is something that you cannot do everything. That’s the better way to think about it Right because you can’t do things until you’ve done them And people don’t like that because we live in this video game world where we want like Oh, if I do these moves this thing is gonna happen. We don’t live in that world We’re never gonna live in that world. That world has never existed and never will exist You know and and and and freaking Zuckerberg and his stupid, you know vr goggles all day long. It’s still not going to exist I worked in software for 35 years software’s garbage. It’s gotten worse Whatever they’re doing is not going to work the way they expect and it’s going to crash and it’s not right Even in the vr world where we have the most control it still isn’t that world It still isn’t that world and that’s where people get tripped up. That’s why I mentioned space in the monologue Space is that place where potential Is is in is in Existence waiting to manifest it may or may not manifest. It’s a schrodinger’s potential problem, right? And you know to some extent schrodinger just Recapitulated something very very simple for no apparent good reason and everyone’s been stuck And I have a schrodinger’s cat t-shirt by the way, which is quite cute But also everyone’s been stuck on a very simple point which is yeah until until actions are taken Things aren’t manifest in the world and therefore reality doesn’t pre-exist Reality is something that coexists as a result of your manifestation in the world as a result of your action What you do matters to quote peterson So there there was a thought I had earlier so i’ll go ahead and say it um On some of the stuff we were talking about earlier This idea of being too stuck in knowledge in the propositional It’s it seems like That can go that can obviously go along with lack of conversation and uh, and you talked about how people have a tendency of with failure they um They judge themselves too harshly and then they they fail more Um, well in the in the metrics of success, maybe we could put it that way and um I think that connects to being too To too propositional and not and not enough In conversation and that connects to some of the trolls we saw Well, I don’t even know if they would consider themselves trolls, but they were they considered themselves philosophy gods so they kind of had that kind of complex they come on to the Awakening from the meaning crisis server. Sometimes they really pissed off andre and I think of maybe four different guys. They just happen to be all guys um snakes, but and but oh yeah, and the in the last thing was Um, they got stuck in bad faith communication Right, they were they were stuck in this bad faith communication versus good faith communication Not that I say not to say I have a perfect definition of these terms Uh are a good definition of them necessarily because they could you get really complex with those terms but um uh, and I think that uh, that really goes along with this I with the idea of uh being Stuck too much in the propositional and not enough in conversation. Um Conversations purely propositional though. That’s the conversation is purely propositional That is the problem there’s no hold on I think I think there’s a distinction here that I just want to say one thing um Uh this this beating yourself up, uh Is like a bad faith communication with yourself and there’s it seems like there’s some sort of relationship there So that’s how i’m trying to put all that together Yeah And and and punk you you just your last point was what I was going to try and steal man What I think mark was kind of misunderstood was was misapprehending was that it’s His point I think was the propositional as in the abstract within the the the monologue the inner monologue is here versus the conversational as in participating in a the platonic dramatic dialogue man, like like we were talking about like participating in an organic community where the most ancient thing we do mark is is Converse as humans and so I think I think that’s the distinction that that we don’t but I don’t I don’t think so The most ancient thing we do is trade and you can trade without talking And that’s why people miss like no all the evidence is this trade without communication In other words trade is actually a form of communication. Just that we reduce communication to language Communication is way richer than the language Yeah, let’s see. I would I would hear all right So here’s the rub with me then is I would say there’s a both and here that the culture and and the wisdom that is affording These these these these primitive homo sapiens that are that are doing the most primitive uh, uh art art artifice, you know, uh making and symbolic representation and and you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, Local trading and and communication intertribally. I’d say that is that is you’re getting it’s so blurry there with It’s not what we’re describing as wisdom and and and the the meditation and in in in the go ahead go ahead Yeah, it’s not intertribal. I that’s part of the problem is that The richest forms of communication are not spoken And there’s different levels of spoken richness. So for example, a lot of people misread my passion as anger And like no one on this stream has no there’s a continuum. There’s a continual It’s not even a continuum, but there’s a subtle difference and I would argue it’s not subtle If you heard me angry, you’d know it and you’d be like, ah If you think my passion is anger if you heard me angry you’d be traumatized And people have been by the way that’s happened Because they’re just not expecting can’t come not expecting that range. I have a pretty good range, right? I can also do eight hour live streams. Uh, it might be a hint as to yeah. I’m not your typical I agree. I agree. There’s a more fundamental But hold on matthew so When we talk about communication, here’s the problem, right? So well, i’ll just i’ll just afford you the point of this is spectrum or whatever, right? Yes, there’s a continuum That’s the continuum. Sorry. That was the word you used. I’ll use that word I’ll afford you the continuum argument. That’s fine. Here’s the problem when you say conversation. Are you talking about? a reddit thread Are you talking about right? Are you talking about? I’m talking about these i’m talking about this this right or are you talking about? Voice only on the discord server. Are you talking about voice and video on the discord server? Because every time you go up a level Right, you change how much information is available in the moment? And at some point right some people talk about this all the time Sarcasm doesn’t work in text Does anybody understand how mind-bending that is that should be a nuclear moment for you Why doesn’t sarcasm work in text? You could meditate on that for weeks. How no no it takes 10 seconds How does sarcasm work? What does sarcasm do sarcasm? Meaning of a word All by itself And it is not located in the propositions ever I can say the same thing twice and change my tone And you know, it’s sarcastic in one case in which case you flip the meaning and you know, it’s not sarcastic in the other case So when you say conversation What do you mean? Because some people you say oh we’re having an ongoing conversation in my sub stack thread Okay, i’m not gonna say you’re not having a conversation But I am gonna say what is the quality? Of the relationship that you are having in your propositional Communication now I would say that is a function of what I call intimacy the quality of the relationship Right, and so communication is not one thing And you can’t reduce it to one thing because you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about and neither does anybody else Now the problem with that situation just happens all the time. Listen to bernay brown’s ted talks. You’ll hear her do this When I say conversation you have an image of exactly what I said Right Unfortunately, you in the plural also had an image of what I said, but it’s not the same Because I just demonstrated to you that Conversation can be I wrote a sub stack article some people commented on it We can also be this we’re live on voice and video and those communication methods are so vastly different There’s so much more communication going on just because I have my hand and I can talk with my hands and I do Right that they’re not equivalent at all. So when you say conversation Are you referring to a facebook post a reddit thread a sub stack conversation? A text thread on discord server voice and video thing more just a voice thing like The But to ask him to refine his frame does not necessarily refute his frame And I don’t want to sit here and defend for for punk. I mean, he’s a grown man. He can he can defend you know, but but you know, uh anyways, anyway I do see you. I do What I was thinking is uh Uh, I was thinking of something sarcastic. I wanted to say that bernie brown is a clandestine poet And I also wanted to say that um, oh what was it? Um Shoot all right Rene brown is a sorcerer Is a clandestine poet is better. Yeah as it okay. Yeah I don’t think she knows she’s a sorcerer either, but she’s a sorcerer and like she made up a scientific clandestine sorcerer crazy talk well You are right. I need a better definition of my terms, but I was I had a lot of ideas in my head I was trying to It was exploratory. It was more i’m more exploratory than explanatory. And so I I am myself more poetic than um Able to be understood able to but if you’re if you’re open to the possibility that the things you think, you know You don’t know because you can’t communicate them to others That might be helpful to you in your journey to improve Well, because it’ll help you to realize that you need other people and that you need their feedback Especially their negative feedback in order to do that And and and just just to you know, i’m pretty disagreeable to their mark But I do have a little bit of more of some peacemaker images. So let me just offer the the the The olive branch here is because I think we can sit this up and I and you know You can push back on me mark if you think it’s right But I think one of the things that we are highlighting in this for you. Mr. Punk, uh, it’s funny Because I don’t see a real name. So i’m just gonna call you. Mr. Punk you know the more myth poetic kind of Kind of a side that you’re trying to articulate with is I think one of the threads mark is highlighting is the mysteriousness and the complexity of All that this thing is that we call reality in existence I think that is a thread there and I think that is something that we can all I mean, it’s just if You know kind of can sound just humdrum, but you know if as an adult if you know in a proper, you know, uh, you know Contemplative style if you really do take that into consideration and chew on it, man, it’s it’s This place is so much it’s it’s that learned ignorance man. That’s what I the metaphor It’s it’s you know, surrendering that my periphery is I I don’t know most of what the hell is going on And and so it’s you know, it’s and and then when you do and then you know marks a great example or just exemplified It’s like even when you think you got, you know a hint of it You can start tearing away and and and and digging away and it’s it can be inexhaustible in nature You know, it’s you know the frame issues and you know different interpretives, you know Just a couple of the complexities you mentioned go ahead. Oh, I I just I’m I just When I was going back to that thought i’m i’m just trying to highlight a potential behavioral pattern i’m seeing where um an excess of an inner monologue, uh Possibly produces more bad face communication Yes, yes, and I I actually I got some Some of the people we we saw on the server who? I I don’t know. I had that kind of gut feeling that that was going on so but i’m not saying that I have a great definite this Definition of terms when i’m throwing ideas around but you got to you got to be able to consider certain things And I again, I think but but hold on you got to consider certain things, right? We tend to believe that say everybody who’s attracted to john vervecki is A good actor That they’re capable of understanding his work and engaging right And and that they have good intent and that they’re sane And those are all bad assumptions Right. There are plenty of people who are not sane. They’re not at all Um, there are medication right like they’re seeing therapists right and and and That those people Psychologically speaking in the psychological literature some of the actual scientific psychological literature that’s actually done is real science In any group without a leader or with a weak leader The most psychotic will take over Right and because people are allowed to run run rampant And if you don’t kick people out the super egalitarian left right now is what that’s right Well, that’s exactly what happened right exactly I just want to offer one more can I offer one more note of synthesis here a little bit and kind of tie a loop here Is I think I think you’re onto something. Mr. Punk and in that My my intuition with it is that that that letting that inner monologue run rampant is is also A heuristic of not participants to tie back into mark’s point of you know The need to participate in the songa and the distributed cognition is I think that’s a heuristic of you don’t have a healthy community that you’re participating in Thus it’s a heuristic for you exactly what you’re saying. It’s going to In hit it’s going to enable and and uh in uh encourage a bad faith stance and and good faith. It’s like You know good good faith is this what I would say is good faith is carrying a lot though You know we could we could investigate what the notion of good faith is and for another 30 And mark might say it’s take right 10 seconds, but you could I think you could investigate it for a good while um, it’s It’s a marker that goes along with someone who’s someone who’s participate in a healthy community Right, but but good faith is an abstract concept and the problem is that people throw it around It’s like it’s only knowable in hindsight Okay, or or with research like sometimes you can so for example you can look at John brevig’s discussion with nathan orman digital noses and you can say okay Why did you do that discussion and he says why he did it because Nathan apparently had this wonderful Pushback and critique on twitter Okay, unfortunately John didn’t do his research, right? Uh a little bit of research and jacob did interestingly good for jacob, right? I said go look at the guy’s channel And just watch one of his videos and you tell me if he’s good faith actor And the thing is his entire youtube channel is anger and resentment porn. That’s what it is. There’s nothing else on his channel There’s no good faith discussions with other people there’s no uh Videos where he’s not either angry or fomenting anger his Jacob didn’t even watch the videos. He looked at some of the titles and he said this guy’s not a good faith actor It was knowable that he was not a good faith actor. I would argue he couldn’t have been His conversation with revaki was a disaster. It was clear that he never read any of his work Didn’t know any of the science involved and never bothered to do his homework Now had had anybody from the revaki foundation asked which they most certainly did not They would have known nathan came on to his server And he had conversations with us Uh, were they really conversations because he was in bad faith the whole time he came into the freaking meditation hall And called us all cult members And this unfolded over a very long period of time. It was at least 30 or 40 minutes Uh, and he was the first person to get booted from that server as I recall it reminds me You could have known in advance that he was not good faith The problem is everybody assumes good faith. This is the redemption. I was talking about earlier Everybody’s trying to redeem people and say oh no, no He’s good faith because he once said a reasonable critique of my work that I found interesting That doesn’t make somebody good faith, dude. It just doesn’t that’s not what good faith is ever And so we use that as a proxy To say oh if somebody comes in good faith, you wouldn’t know that ahead of time. That’s a useless statement Yeah, if somebody had come in good faith, that would have been great But if they don’t you’re screwed and you don’t know in advance and you fool yourself by using words that way Into believing the world in a certain way when it’s absolutely never that way ever There’s a bunch of stuff. You can’t know in advance You don’t know when you go into a discord server if the people there are saying You don’t know i’ve been on a discord server where the people none of the people there at the time were saying i’ve seen that This is the internet man. If I was running a a peterson sphere I would more I would I would I almost would want to make it like peterson fears slash philosophy Because i’d want to pull in I would want like a a portion of it Um, as long as it’s all within legal Moderate within legal boundaries. I want a portion of it. That’s that’s only moderate within legal boundaries I’d want to capture the insane people so that I can Maximally increase my distributed cognition potentially But I want to keep them there. I want to get them totally no sensor. No, you don’t No, that’s see that’s a mistake. This is just a constant redemption idea. You don’t want to do that Every internet community throughout history And I’ve been in tons and tons of them that does that blows up immediately Immediately, that’s actually how we got sort of booted off the server over there Where my brain went was the the and I think they were uh pvk was talking about a little bit touching on this a little bit today on a live stream was is is It’s it’s the issue of discernment Um, and and I think the the christian move is to judge a fruit by or judge a tree by its fruits, you know Judged by its fruits. Um, so and then there’s an there’s an embodiment in an action There’s a uh, you know, then you take an action, right? Like you you you see what’s going on and then you flip over the tables because you know What’s going on is wrong and then you and then you submit to the authority and you and you uh, you know You have the bad the bad result Which which which gets turned into a good result ultimately and and there’s nothing wrong with that pattern That’s we’ll say the proper pattern of the world I think that’s probably correct or at least the best story ever told or something. I’m i’m fine with all that but also Discernment was had action was taken and people were excluded and that has to be the case You do not maximize distributed cognition by distributing it too far. Just spread it out cause a flood And you can’t you can’t live in a flood that’s the problem you actually don’t want that you want the opposite You want something that is focused on the things that are important? Because it is lots of stuff to focus on Okay, this is the relevance realization argument that john makes And I i’m a fan of relevance realization, but I don’t believe it’s a solution to a problem or definable by the way Doesn’t matter the point hold There is a relevance to things and there is a hierarchy in that relevance And you need to realize or discern right? So I would say relevance with a wrap up in discernment, right and values right because relevance is values and realization is discernment All right, roughly speaking not exactly pretty close though, right? You need to be able to do that right you need to be able to figure out what’s more important what’s less important And exclude the things that are less important in some cases or of no importance Yeah, here’s here’s where and this is something i’ve actually been wrestling recently So this is kind of good that this is getting brought up for me is And this kind of can go right in with discernment. Um is that I think there’s a tension, you know this tone-off that jv’s always talking about of the the The and this does kind of align with the discernment on like you just said on like the notion of Uh, uh, and how it emphasizes the why you need to disagree a little bit of disagreeableness You know shout out to jacob for being able to you know, go in and say and see and like I said flip flip the table but but anyways, there’s a tone-off there of uh Of you know doubt doubt doubt give give there you go with the good faith It goes with good faith of giving the good faith and then also saying hey note I’m I have a standard i’m going to protect and and and put up and and value that standard and and and make someone pass You know through the gates or or or pass the the the meritocratic, uh, uh hoops But but but anyways, there’s a tone-off there of the humility Okay, the the radical humility that christianity and the socratic humility of it’s like, you know, it’s it’s where I think there’s you know It reminds me of the notion of jv gets where people say, you know, socrates said he knows nothing It’s like okay, but socrates says he does know certain things. It’s like there’s Where i’ve been stuck is I I want to embody this radical humility and I think there it isn’t an existential stance I think that might be where the line is is i’m getting that might be the rub is i’m getting it in this propositional abstract Blurriness where it’s an embodied existential stance, but this radical humility versus No, I need to aim. I mean I me and my community need to have that thing that we’re saying This is what we’re doing guys, this is this is our standard guys, but I don’t but I don’t yeah I don’t think there’s any such thing as radical humility I think that’s like it’s only radical if you’re trying to be an individual, right? Then it would be radical rebellion and those people love rebellion. Okay, but what about within a community? What about humility within a community to to afford a high? Yeah, you can’t get in a community without humility Right, they will kick your ass out Okay, and you’ll get upset maybe but like if you’re getting kicked out of communities, that’s on you, dude Like you need to submit it’s that simple Like you need to be able to follow the rules and if you can’t follow the rules, you can’t get the benefit It’s that simple. It’s a trade-off And if you’re not ready willing and able to make that trade-off you have a problem And the problem is you you know peterson talks about this like if it’s all women, it’s not all women, right? It’s you it’s the same it’s the same principle I think your move then is that the the greater good is not on me as an individual anyways It’s on this this this community that i’m participating in anyways, so it’s almost a mute point in that the and so the the The the this radical humility is that you’re going to be humbled You’re going to be humbled by participating in a group. No matter what it’s almost an implied thing It’s you know, you can’t human is human is close to humility, you know from the from the dust back to dust You know, it’s from dust to dust. Um, I think you’re point landing marvin I’m enjoying this conversation of jiu-jitsu with me. So a question I have for mark. Um So even though you don’t even though you don’t even know good faith communication and bad faith communication are You can say in hindsight. Um, what what do you think about? Intuiting them in real time They do it on the talk But so but I bet you can’t I bet matthew can’t Most people can’t like I just like that’s great. I can do it. I’m pretty good at i’m not 100 I’m pretty extroverted and I I was in the criminality lifestyle for almost seven years I got a pretty good gauge on but but I I I I accept your your skepticism Yeah, I mean look most most people come in and they go like well this person’s here. They’re on the verveky server They must know something about verveky and they do right and or or or this guy on twitter Like i’ve read the republic several times. Okay, bro Show me in the republic where playdoh’s cave what anybody escapes from playdoh’s cave or show me where anybody can Right because playdoh is actually pretty explicit about this in the book. You can’t escape from the cave It’s not available to you the right to the cave with it and The whole idea is Imagine if somebody could be released from the bonds In other words, you can’t be released from the bonds And and that move makes no sense unless you understand the end of book seven, which is the point of the book, right? That move is You have to remove the philosophers the true philosophers right not the sophists. They’re the evil guys To remove the philosophers from their movement towards towards the good Explicitly it’s we’re out of the cave the cave parables long gone It’s the beginning the very beginning opens with the cave parable. That parable falls away pretty quickly actually You have to remove the philosophers from their individual Movement towards the good And glaucon immediately objects and says dude, what are you doing? You can’t do that They’re moving towards the good by definition. You can’t remove them from moving towards the good by definition Right like he objects immediately and he should and socrates goes and he does this many times in the republic, by the way Ah, but wait dear glaucon you already agreed We’re not doing the good for the individual Doing the good for the city So the point of playdoh’s cave is actually no you’re trapped where you’re at get over it and You’re a jerk and you’re a jerk because when the philosopher comes down to the bottom of the city and sees all the things that are wrong Because he was nearer the good than you were he sees these things and he goes This is wrong and that’s wrong and this is wrong and we can make your life better. We’re going to make these changes Those people throw rotten stuff at you and jeer at you and say you suck That’s the point of playdoh’s cave book seven guys That’s the point the point is even if you’re the good and you do the good you are not going to be appreciated for it at all Therefore you should expect no accolades and oh by the way, we’re all trapped where we’re at That’s the point of book seven This is not some story of breaking free from the bonds and like Fighting the machines that are going towards zion and that it’s the opposite point It’s getting a cookie, but but but you also have to understand here’s I I would agree 98 9% what you just said mark and and I just want to highlight you have done the best critique of the individual in this little hour and a half that I mean you have just Destroyed any any philosophical notion of the substantive notion of you know worthiness of the individual but I would say also mark you have to You have to also take that section of the republic in the whole of the story, right? You can’t okay. Okay, because that you can’t just navel gaze on that section and just be like well there Because it is in the whole But look matthew people are navel gazing on the first few pages of book seven I was just I was just making sure you weren’t doing the same on the on the back end No, no, but but that’s kind of my point is that the point of the republic is that if you care about justice You can’t understand it except from the perspective of a city And I also have that perspective well and well and and I think the jv and socratic move is is to it’s it’s that tone also, it’s that’s why socrates takes you into the cities because to say if if if if If a single person i’ll use your word if a single person is going to best Is going to best wrestle with the notion of justice It’s going to be at this fractal level of doing it through the layers of how society works But I would also say just to toot your horn one more time is what I think you’re doing, you know to bring back the accusatory language of you navel gazing on on the end is that And this is what jv nails and what I what I try to tell is like this is kind of the The the the blessing and curse of what I call tlc. I know you don’t like that name of Is that return to the cave the the reminder that evil beats good most often? It’s what you were just saying. It’s like there’s it’s yeah the the good good Good good takes its licking and and and that the return the return what I call Getting the grease on my i’m a mechanic getting the grease on my hands and the elbows and dealing with the mundane conversations And you know seeing if I can get the sprinkle of the good in there Maybe and god bless it and the grace if it happens, but it’s the return back to reality It’s it is that that that that that end cap that that is such an emphasis point So I do yeah, you get you get the good by doing good in the world Not by talking about it. I just want to say uh, not by the accolades, right? There’s not the accolades. It’s right Yeah, and re do have you had any thoughts? Uh, I know we’ve been going and going Just wanted to Oh, I don’t know Get any thoughts andre, uh, yeah I’m just trying to keep along with uh, what’s being said. Okay Good, you’re good Now I I have a A platos cave search and rescue crew t-shirt and it’s so Like arrogant it makes me shameful to own it, but it’s funny at the same time Which is why I bought it That’s fine. And then I also have uh, put uh Plato and socrates with sunglasses and the matrix code behind them. I love that shirt I look i’m a huge fan of the matrix It’s just the most terribly subversive and evil movie of all time like but I still love it I still watch it It’s just like man the messaging and signaling in that film Is so deeply flawed and and wrong and bad It’s really bad But the guy yeah someday jesse and I are gonna go through the whole thing and And like just point out to you a bunch of stuff that you probably didn’t notice and like it’s bad It’s working. You kind of ruined it for me Uh with because he said they’re killing other they’re killing humans and I was like, wow, he’s right They’re like the even though they turn into agent smith’s so like they’re still It’s like they’re not It’s collateral damage Right. Well, where do you get collateral damage from you get? We’ll get say, um Unrepentant collateral damage from the idea of an individual from the idea that you can be plucked out of the machine And just placed somewhere and be an individual with did you did you notice did you notice? Think back to the scene where he wakes up Right. He’s been plucked from the matrix from the from the machine. He wakes up and what does he see? He sees a bunch of people of different sizes different colors different accents All together working together in a broken down disgusting dirty ship It’s kind of ugly symbolism Are you familiar with uh malcolm and simone collins the pro natalist couple It’s on on youtube The two evil snakes who are doing the revaki written our thing Uh only enough to know that they are fundamentally evil Are you talking about the husband and wife pro natalis couple? Are you talking about the two lesbians one of which pretends to be a man, but it’s clearly not You are just Every day in my school so badly that he wouldn’t live I’m sorry. I find them very interesting. I find them obviously they’re super super intelligent. Um Uh, I just I just they’re wrong about catholicism though, like they just make ridiculous statements about catholicism that are just so I actually mark and this is and you know, i’m coming to you know as I engage with you I think i’m probably less read than you are Um, you know, i’m fair i’m fairly unread but but I will say this they’ve even to my ear They’ve made a few where i’m just like whoa I would I could push back way hard on that like not even push back like 180 degrees like what stuff Nobody and nobody is pushing back on them, right? That was one of the things that I think oh sam tinneman got was was like hey man You you had a chance to really kind of wrestle with them and you didn’t must wrestle at all but but anyway, my thought with that was is that You know, we’re acknowledging the the the frivolity that you know, the the the The fictionality of the story of the individual, right? And I think they’re like I said, I think the jacob point is that you know with the pagea move nested You know in the certain narrow light it can be a useful kind of a notion But so with this with with this community society civilization that we are participating now the monoculture as they diagnose and call and so it’s like what do you What do you see? I mean, I just kind of want to pick your brain a bit if you want to riff on on on that as a community At large as as you know, what is the temperature today or and or? What do you make of what they’re trying to do as you know, these this this couple these two single persons But are like they’re looking into like multi-generational, you know make a religion. That’s not a religion still right? It’s all the same project, right? Fascinating I don’t know where I’m morally, you know Judge it. Yeah, go ahead Well, so what I see is the same pattern over and over again and everybody thinks they’re doing a different project I’m like no, you’re literally doing the same project. So Yes, I kind of agree Yeah, you can look at pvk and verveki’s latest conversation and I have a bunch of notes on that and i’m probably never going to share them Right because they’re just like what are you guys talking about your lunatics because they are and you see That they’re on the same project Right vanderkley all along has known He talked about this over and over again My denomination is going to touch the third rail Of women again, right? It’s already come up And then when that happens, it’s going to split like every other protestant denomination has he said this explicitly Right and so that happens And now where is he he’s in domicile? Right for sure Right. So what is he what is his well, we have to rebuild this Okay That’s ritnar He’s a protestant. Of course, he’s going to do ritnar. That’s what protestantism is. It’s religion that is not a religion It’s the same project Right. And so that’s why he likes verveki because verveki gives him the scientific cover the protestants love scientism They’re freaking my mind people You are blowing my mind mark Right So you see that pattern and then simone and and what’s you know, what’s her name colins? Because they’re both women engineers. I can tell uh come along and what do they say explicitly? Well, we need to build a new religion. They say this we need to build a new religion to save natalism What kind of lunacy so they’re on the same project all three of them are on the same project I just i just i’m not gonna give myself the credit that you just did with with the brilliance You just outlined it but I gestured toward this in a stream where I said I said tls. I know you hate the term tlc. I’ll keep doing these uh, uh caveats, but I I said that I gestured that tlc is a mere fractal. It’s just we’re we’re not doing anything special We’re just doing something that all these other communities. It’s I I think that’s right on is what you’re saying Is that once you see the pattern it’s like hey It’s these people dealing with the domicile that the modernity of flood City it’s fracturing right? It’s that’s why it’s the corners within the corners Then you don’t have a corner the fractal of fragmentation and that’s so protestant, right but it’s not fractal That’s the problem. It’s not actually fractal. That’s why they like the joe’s work Is they’re trying to redeem their project of rebellion? It’s it’s anti-fractal it’s it’s it’s it’s wow. Wow. Wow. It’s the Hmm. Wow That’s protestant move right is right. They go look we splintered off But it’s we’re really just a fractal and it’s like no you’re a splinter you took something and you went bang Okay, but here’s the all right. Well, here comes here comes my question and man i’m at the edge here mark So we’re really dancing in prime. So uh, give me some uh, the christianity in me says Is this the mystery of the resurrection is this if something is dying if there is a community if there is a body if there’s A entity if something is is decaying and spazzing and death throes Where is the rebirth the regrowth the renewal where does the term story? Well, that’s the if there is problem and this is why I don’t like the tlc moniker, right because The What if it never had a body Then your name is just wrong And that can happen like I can I make up names all the time just doesn’t matter. Of course Something I do Right and so I make up stupid names things all your wordsmith and I am I am thank you. Yeah and and But not all names are correct Like the fact that you can put things together into new words or new phrases doesn’t mean they’re accurate and precise enough To represent something that is unified And the thing with tlc is it is explicitly do your own thing Yeah, and actually This is something that I think i’ve i’ve kind of got the hint of is that there’s an anti leadership to pvk It’s this leader that doesn’t want to be a leader. It’s like exactly. It’s like that there’s there’s that that can work to an extent But it’s like The at some threshold any leader that i’ve ever been a part at some place takes the horns and says, you know What this is but you’ve got to follow you’ve got a following and when you have a following you you When you create a following whether you use that explicitly or not, you now have a responsibility And you need to take that responsibility I don’t want to be overly critical because it’s a huge thing. I mean it’s it’s it’s a bit it is a big, you know decision And leap, you know, you know, who the hell am I, you know, i’ll give him the the the credit and the in the The the good faith there, but but I do want to say this is that uh, it There Oh, I just I just lost I just lost the thought of um Uh, we we were just I yeah, I just lost the train of thought just lost the train of thought. Sorry That’s all right. But I mean but I mean it is that pattern of splintering and that pattern. Oh, yes. There you go There you go. You just nailed it. You just know. Okay, so it is this it’s the it’s it’s the protestant. It’s the protestant move, right? It’s it’s When when you can just sit there and and and in And and revolt and critique and critique and critique and and fragment and fragment and splinter and splinter it’s nail nail Yeah, right and and and so it becomes the when when is this when is this a new thing and how does a new thing? Yeah, it Right. Well, the problem is there’s always new things and this is the difference between being is good and emergence is good For vaguely is a b is is not a being is good guy. He’s an he’s an emergence is good guy Oh, and I was gonna say too I was gonna say too is is the protestant move of of you can protest anything is is that’s right aligned with the authority move Is is once your protest once you’ve protested authority then that’s well, am I the authority? Well, I don’t even know who the hell am I we just talked about that’s why they that’s why they An authenticity crisis. They’re so alive. It all converges there Well, you you have to have an authenticity crisis if you have an authority crisis. Yes Brother i’ve been saying that in my head for a year and a half. I’m so glad to go Yeah, it’s the cognition of the same thing, right? Yes, right and that’s why you I mean you listen to the pvk verveky conversation. They talk about this. Oh, you can’t Self-identify as an authority. Well, no, of course not right that doesn’t make any sense, but they don’t resolve it Right. And so what happens is you listen to that congress as you go. Oh, that’s really smart. They didn’t give you an answer That’s not smart Like in business if you go to the boss and you say I see a problem and you don’t have a solution to it The boss tells you to go away a good boss will right because you’re not That there’s no solution then what the hell are you doing? Well to be fair to be fair I would say They’re they’re they’re wrestling with such deep and perennial issues that there is an apparatic Element there, you know, there’s a This I will say this mark because there is a paradox of this we just mentioned is that A true the best lead in my look This is someone who’s been in sports and in different different communities in my life, you know Who the hell am I but from my experience the best leaders? Are the leaders who don’t want to be the leader but then at that threshold they do decide they will and then they do so There’s this paradox of eminence and emergence. I mean, it’s well Maybe maybe I don’t look the best the best leaders that we know about in history did want to be leaders and they just did it Like steve jobs is a jerk, but he’s damn good leader, but also he was a jerk But like, you know, I mean the iphone Change the world better for worse the george washington thing of of you know, that that humility thing of saying, you know Wanted to lead the army and he made sure it happened and and his humility Look, i’m not saying he wasn’t humble. I’m a huge america first guy Hitler is a jerk, but he was good later Yeah, would you at least recognize the messiness of how? How a leader comes to be I mean it’s not just this easy It’s it you don’t just snap your finger because that’s the end of the other end of the spectrum is you don’t just will it And say here’s a leader because then that’s some of them. Well, no, no see I would again I push back on that. I mean if Peterson talks about this hitler knew what he was doing, man They you know, he talks about these geniuses of the 20th But no, no, no mark because I can balance that with there was also a cultivation of an environment that Manifest like there was multiple Dynamical dynamics of factors that that yeah No great man because because in the same speech jp says he reacts in place to the crowd There’s a dynamic there. So no, no, there’s a dynamic after it happens The getting of the crowd and the leading of the crowd is still an act of will There is no great man. I don’t believe in the great man theory, right? There are great men and any one of them could and may become a great man This is that modal confusion thing we were talking about earlier, right? And so And this is the point like oh if hitler hadn’t been born The same thing would have happened in germany. The question is would it have happened as efficiently or as well? But the fact of the matter is what played out in germany was going to play out whether hitler was there or somebody else was there? Into the degree we’re also right. And so again, you’re right two things come together Right one from the top one from the bottom whatever doesn’t matter two things come together though And a bunch of things happen as a result of that and that is not something you can understand using logic reason rationality because those tools aren’t sufficient to grasp something that complex and this is the difference between complexity and complication We tend to reduce things to complication. I’ve got slides on this. I’m going to do a video on it We tend to reduce things to complication And then think we’re smart about them when in fact we’re not even solving problems And so it’s all well and good to say grief is a perennial problem But there’s no solution to grief so it can’t be a problem And by the way, the fact that the perennial pattern of grief exists doesn’t tell you how to deal with it Now when you hear verbenky talk about that you go, oh my god, that guy’s so smart and and that is correct But he didn’t give you a solution to anything But this reminds me of the quote not to be self-referential here haha but I wrote a quote here earlier about man and solutions and tying it into knowledge with your your notion of I think there is it can be a modal confusion of to ever think we were here for that mark There is so and now i’m not saying that you’re saying that but I am saying that To think if jv’s offering that or to someone to go into that I think then you there’s a valid critique there because I think that it could be the modal confusion is that man I don’t know if we ever I think because here’s my here’s one of my big radical stances Is that I think the safe the ancient sacredness the ancient sacred notion was this This learned. I this this reality is so complex We are understanding is so is so minute is is just it’s it’s the proportion is is Is completely ridiculous to think it’s the other way around It actually kind of goes to your point on just like the amount of knowledge we have is so minute that to think it’s that valuable It’s just it’s kind of ridiculous anyways, and so it’s uh Yeah, I would just uh Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it’s Go ahead punk. Go ahead. So it so it seems kind of like uh our pretentiousness uh, just um, or you could say pretentiousness kind of breeds, uh More perception of failure and less action and that goes along with rtnr and that goes along more broadly with With our lives with us. I failed to do so many things I tried black picking and crocheting the same year and I barely it was a it was a year of long metal sticks Well, not the whole year like a very short amount of time, right? Right? Um Because i’ve identified with this label of polymath and so basically what that means is um getting extremely frustrated By pursuing more hobbies than I could ever master exactly Let’s see. And that’s the thing I enjoy it because it gives me a story to tell about how Emergence is good. You got the new thing. Oh novelty, right? We like novelty I mean, that’s that’s how the that’s how the attention mirrors work Right the attention mirrors are all about giving you lots of novelty And and that’s why we like them And and there’s nothing wrong with some novelty, right? But too much is a flood And there is the discernment and that’s what that’s why you need discernment because the reason why everybody feels like a freaking failure Is because hey, we’re holding up people like elon musk and saying well, elon musk is smart and that’s why he has money And then we’re telling everybody they’re smart, you know in some cases by sending him to college Look say a lot of things not a fan of college. I didn’t go to college I don’t care about college. I think all colleges could burn down now because we just got into that point and now i’m there right, but but Alexandria ocasio cortez has many skills She is not smart enough to have graduated college. I’m sorry She’s smart enough to have a degree but we gave her one and that’s on us You know two things, you know two things one is boston university Should give her her money back because they lied to her about her capabilities They should become unaccredited immediately to give any kind of degree to any kind of person ever again That is for sure This isn’t gonna happen. I know it’s not gonna happen. We don’t live in a perfect world What skills does she have This is the alt right notion of bartending. Okay, purpose of the system is what it does No, she’s she’s yeah, but bartending is a legitimate set of skills But it’s a reflection of a big bigger set of skills Which is the ability to relate to people in a way that they find attractive and interesting, right? And so that is perfect for a politician Perfect for a politician Now you could say whatever you want about her intelligence level or anything else. She’s certainly successful She’s able to do things that other people cannot do right, and she’s leveling her skills as Super bartender or however you want to frame it And good for her like I I don’t harbor any will towards that I might harbor a lot of ill will towards her political attitudes and and her thoughts and and her Statements when she’s making public statements that lack intelligence Those are specific critiques about specific instances But at the end of the day She’s a successful politician In any way you measure it she managed to pull off those two freaking elections In spite of all of her other deficits This is something there And that’s great good for her I Wish she weren’t in office for various reasons, right? But like Also, she’s in office like those skills Helped her and we when we don’t appreciate that when we say like well donald trump’s a narcissistic buffoon Even if that’s true the fact that he became president says something And you can’t discount that and say the thing that matters most is narcissistic buffoonery Over all other things no it doesn’t Lots of successful people are narcissistic and lots of people are buffoons for univariate fallacy Exactly, and that’s the reduction of the world when we compress elon musk down to the really smart guy It’s the left and it’s not it’s the left brain move, too It’s the left brain move, too and it’s and it’s the lazy I don’t want to turn on my cognitive resources my neurological physiological resources I want to categorize and sort you quickly and deal with you quickly. Yeah, but Maybe it’s not laziness. Maybe we can’t and this is what nobody’s talking about. Nobody’s talking about cognitive load We have a cognitive load. Okay, my kind of load your cognitive load are definitely not the same Need for cognition Cognitive load has different aspects right the thing that I can do if you want to put it in vervege terms and I will Please I am a master relevance realization machine I can read something or look at something or listen to something and figure out the relevant points now I have huge blind spots in that for sure. There’s certain types of relevance I don’t recognize at all because i’m very focused on Accuracy and precision just because various reasons right? data Yeah, well i’m very focused on data over people. That’s for sure. I’m super super ruthless, which is just efficiency Applied to people like when you’re efficient with people you’re ruthless. You don’t care about them correctly, right? You have a lack of intimacy, right? You have a lack of quality of relationship with them very modern by the way Go on, go on Maybe maybe materialistic is a better term Uh, right and so what ends up happening is we all have different sets of skills so I can Pick up a book and read it and figure out. Oh, that’s the most important sentence in this chapter Oh, that’s the most important point in this book Okay, and I have read whole book critiques where no one picked up on those things And I have taken them to people who are experts who went oh wow, I never saw that before that’s amazing I don’t know how I can do this. I have no idea other people can’t do that now Now it’s walking down the street on cape cod years ago my buddy my buddy has An idetic memory for numbers and I hate them numbers and I don’t get along because i’m dyslexic among other reasons But he also has a way of paying attention to the world around him is fundamentally different from mine So I can roughly tell you where people are and how many people are on the street and where they’re walking where they’re going to be Right object detection all that stuff very good We walk past these two girls And you know, one of them was pretty good looking the other one wasn’t bad looking right? So I kind of noticed them whatever and he goes They’re having an argument and that one lost and i’m like how on god’s green earth Can you possibly know something that specific and ridiculous and he explained to me all the details he caught that I missed That that sort of proved his point and I was just like I don’t I can’t do that Right. You just have a skill level now the problem with cognitive Load and there’s many more right some people are good at math Some people are better at reading some bit right on and on not that kind of load is a huge subject, right? The problem with cognitive load is it changes day to day and hour to hour for you And you’re never going to know like I know this some days I go My words aren’t wording or my memory is not doing the thing or whatever Right, and so I know i’m kind of down here. I’m not up here today or in this particular moment right after a meal Right, so your cognitive load is changing all the time And with this individualistic self-frame we don’t recognize that there’s a lot of change throughout the day Just with your sugar levels if you want to make it materialistic You’re not getting around that ever by the way the fact that you know about it doesn’t mean you can change it And we don’t account for that It’s the gauge problem again it’s it’s the the complexity of of what you are and in that that deficiency is that you need a you need a complex system of a community and other and other Humans to to be living alongside and engaging with and wrestling with and tell you that right Yes to even to even notice it or to even start to to address it, right? Exactly, you can’t you can’t do that through self-reference. Look at sally joe sees psychic space dragons Which you can buy on the on my store, by the way, all right mark of wisdom dot org Um, right at least most tuesdays psychic state space dragons happen every day sally how can you can only see them on most tuesdays? Um that see cognitive load is really important because we don’t realize a it’s changing for us Sometimes hour to hour minute to minute and it’s different day by day. Like we wake up with the different cognitive loads sometimes But also we don’t recognize other people’s cognitive load. What are we missing? I don’t know I don’t know I have no freaking idea And even even I don’t know if this is exactly tied to it But it’s intuitively my mind goes is the the verveky, uh, uh psychometric that he always brings up his need for cognition so even by your You know your fundamental disposition i’m going to be able to handle different cognitive loads and and and i’m going to react to the to the to the you know the emphasis in in the the uh, the you know, The different spectrum that i’m experiencing i’m going to react to that differently. It’s the same biodiversity kind of argument exactly Exactly and it is wrapped up with biodiversity if you believe in the quote evolutionary theory, which isn’t a theory, right? But it’s a natural selection theories hypotheses, um on on unscientific or on Unfalsifiable ideas and a bunch of inference by the way, that’s what that’s what they talk evolutionary theory They’re talking about that if you buy into that and I think evolutionary theory is true roughly speaking then It equality is the enemy it’s evil and it’s bad and it’s wrong think if equality is true then Evolution is false period and all of it too like actually all of it provably by the way Um, and nobody talks about that like you can’t have both And so if we’re not equal if my cognitive capacity is not equal to your cognitive capacity What does that mean? It means our perception of the world is fundamentally different There’s nothing wrong with that Your your this is the elephant problem, right? Where you feel the back end of the elephant I feel the front of the elephant we infer elephant from talking to one another poorly Yes, that’s true. It’s unhelpful to know Because it doesn’t solve any problems cannot solve a problem. It can just if we’re open Engender the humility for us to grow That’s what it can do But if you’re not using it that way Every mistake is uh is thinking you’re gonna solve have a solution. I think you nailed it is engendering the stance that uh, optimally affords transformation, I mean bam like That’s the money that’s the money we’re all aiming for go ahead. I’ve known that verveki. I’m gonna probably hit the hay here Uh, but I wanted to say a couple things. I’ve known that verveki is sort of put that In different terms terms, but basically it’s kind of this conversation’s kind of helped me that I don’t want to say it’s like an absolute obviously, but but my my uh reasoning has really uh Uh made me uh less um successful in the thing in the pursuing things I wanted to do like my reason like my you could say overthinking but you think that you’re being um I don’t you think that you’re being wise when you’re when you’re actually your metrics you you just have almost subconsciously subconsciously You’re just driven to to measure and it’s screwing you up Yes, well, you’re told that you can and you’re told that you should Right, and you told me a better Yes, exactly exactly the other thing I wanted to say, um before I get off is uh Matthew or or any other anyone interested? There’s a couple good you might already know about them, but there’s a couple good books by Catholic mystics The cloud of the the cloud of the unknowing I think and in the dark night of the soul Or the cloud of unknowing if you haven’t heard of them. I think they’re to me They’re probably some of the best books by catholic mystics ever written But i’m not a master scholar in that or anything like that and i’m like I said earlier i’m fairly Under read so i’ll definitely write them down and that’s awesome. Thank you. It was awesome meeting talking to you. Mr Oh, it’s it’s been a great talking to all you they’re part of my anti library with most of the books that I Bought and haven’t don’t know if i’ll ever get around to reading good But uh, i’ll talk to you guys later. Good night, man. Good to see you. Thanks. Have a good one. Thanks for coming Yeah, and and I think I think part of the problem is it’s not overthinking That’s not It’s close to overthinking what is is over expecting Right goes right with predictive processing exactly where we’re over expecting That we can predict something With a relative accuracy and precision that we cannot and then when we don’t meet that mark, we feel like a failure Right because we’ve defined success and predicted how to obtain it And that is a mistake as we covered two weeks ago in the live stream on success And that’s where people get wrapped up they get wrapped up in this idea that they can expect And I think a set of results. I think that ties into the the fundamental point we just that we just hammered too is that You know a part of that stance that will allow this transformation and is not seeking solutions and answers is Is is just is just it’s just that is is It’s just it’s just it’s just that’s the way it is Yeah I think it’s That’s the humility where you’re where you’re giving it up right giving it up which where it is that expectation of an ability to predict the world well enough to Meet some arbitrary standard of success or measure of success. You have to give that up and just do things Errors and mistakes and here’s predicting outcomes and favorable ways of doing things So here’s where and this would just be the disagreeable kind of uh, devil’s advocate because I actually I agree 100% With what you just outlined what we’ve just outlined here in the past Really the whole you know, most of the we’ve had some different disagreements, but in the past five ten minutes 100% agree But here’s where I would try and kind of defend. Mr Punks point a little bit again and push back a little bit is that but we are in the situation today mark where Modernity has happened this notion of the individual the atomized marketed packaged out for consumerism in the machine Every community every social, you know, i’ll get technical with my political acumen is the social spheres have been you know Third partied out completely severed so No The way I understand your wisdom and this kind of goes in as it’s kind of maybe counterintuitive to some of your points is that there’s a wisdom there what you’re saying, but there still is like man But we’re and I think maybe we’re kind of gesturing towards it right now, right? We’re trying to kind of put together these these you know patchwork communities because so much has gone awry in the flood of modernity Right. Yeah. Well, I don’t I don’t like the modernity frame. I have a video on that obviously, uh, Right, it’s it’s a bad word. Well the decay of the decay of our I mean, what do you think what is the blart? I mean, well, we live in the yeah, you can replace you can replace modernity with the age of gnosis, right? Where where gnosis is knowledge as propositions as okay propositional tyranny. I love that. Okay. I like that. I love that Yeah, look, I mean I love her vikis work. I’ve i’ve used a lot of it Right. I mean the realm of gnosis is propositional tyranny. That’s what how it landed for me. So I love it Yeah, yeah, no, no, that’s that’s the correct way to think about it. Yeah, it is within my Do you still you still got the question then I got you I got your question. Let me go through it So we get the age of gnosis, right? The age of gnosis where knowledge is something that can be we’ll say accurately and precisely conveyed through language Right. Yes Yes, and then what happens is this allows for individualism The individualism really gets hammered in with the solas Like there’s the protestant problem that verveki talks about I think the proper way to talk about it And then what ends up happening or it’s also the conti and it’s also the conti anomalous thing too, right? Well, that comes later right that comes that comes we’ll say as the result of the The As a result of this individualism and this materialism, it’s already snuck in Right. And so what ends up happening is now you think through science Right, which is a church project that comes from the church, right the psychotechnology Right, but you can remove yourself from that picture Where do you stand? Where do you stand? Right. Well, I like where do where are you starting? I’m gonna talk about the same thing. I love that. It’s the same thing And it implies the telos Exactly exactly, but it but it it helps you Helps you to find the creation deniers because that’s the problem Yeah, so When you when you have that so you’ve got the individualism and the materialism, right? You’ve got this age of gnosis stuff going on. It’s creating The environment for individualism materialism and then you’ve got like man, you’re coming along and you’ve got this science tool that you know When you like when you read say the enlightenment philosophers, there’s nothing wrong with what they’re saying But it’s all couched in god god god god god god and you can go well, they’re deists. Whatever I think it’s a garbage term. I think it’s Whatever, right? When you remove that when you try to science it when you say oh you remove science from that you create the objectivism Of course I have a video on that right I’m following individualism Objectivism the three great evils of of age of gnosis that are enabled by age of gnosis, which Propositions as the highest of form of knowledge and knowledge is the highest value Um, right. Whoa. Whoa when you say it like that, whoa Then then the critique of knowledge is obvious Look how much the platonic and the verveky has as infiltrated me as soon as you said it like that As knowledge is the highest good i immediately was like, oh hell nov And that goes back to our earlier part of the good intrinsically good boy is this to crack this has been lovely mark This is good. I’m glad i’m glad to hear that so so now you’re now you’re Critique is correct And I think it was a proper critique We’re we’re swimming in this soup like we’re in the agenosis baby and we’re deep in like we’re not We’re not on the shallow end of the agenosis pool at all The agenosis is like that’s where world war one came from baby Like that’s where like these are the manifestations and you take burn power pretty seriously Um the anadromous there, um when he says in the beginning of his how we got here series he says We’re dealing with the trauma of world war one and world war two now Yeah, I agree with that. I can take that I I can agree with him on that point and I can say that’s probably true Right and then what does that mean? That means We’re swimming in this age of gnosis. We’re in the deep end of the pool already And to your point your your great critique is what do we do because you can’t just feed this to people And and this is where I go back to Now that we have a frame which I just gave to you right that we can understand where we are Where we’re standing Right starting right and where we’re starting we’re starting from being born into the deep end of the image of no throne Thrown in tidegird. Oh, yeah, absolutely, right Now what can we do? Well, I say we need to understand the things that we don’t have concepts for Because a lot of people will ask Where wow, why isn’t verveky christian like now? Why isn’t going to church immediately? And that how george just converted And that came that came up with with uh You know with with uh chad and and pvk a while probably a year and a half ago now They said how’s he on the other side of the glass still? It’s a good question. He’s missing concepts It’s good question he’s missing concepts We’re all missing concepts We’re missing concepts like like I said earlier we’re going straight to redemption We’re ignoring what forgiveness really is and we’re ignoring repentance And in order to repent you have to have humility and admit a mistake was made Then once you’ve acknowledged the mistake you can repent for it appropriately. Here’s if if here’s what I agree Unless here’s where I agree on on on the societal move is until If if what you just said as a bigger pattern is if until as a community in a society we recognize Our mistake and and where we have kind of gone along as a whole, you know That’s the beginning I actually think and now that I say it out loud. It kind of seems obvious I don’t want to sit here. Obviously there was a lot more eloquence in what you just said, but um, but I think that’s I think that’s absolutely correct I think it’s it’s going to be a community that has properly recognized or a society, you know That has really reformed and repented for what the hell has gone wrong That’s going to be the and then and then only then can you even think about what the so it’s it’s it’s really It’s like that all the all the other stuff is kind of just mute until that first recognition that repent that man, right? And then and then when you figure out for an individual Situation will say right so when you have a person who’s trying to be an individual When you figure out which of those concepts they’re missing Then you can help them And it’s very tricky thing. I’m not saying everybody can do this I’m saying that we’ve had quite a bit of success doing it. We’ve actually done it right many times You can help them But you need to be able to figure out where they’re stuck and that means talking to them and so as I said This week and today in particular we had sort of a hopefully a breakthrough. We’ll see how long it lasts about self-transformation and the silliness of the of the of the term and the thing was You have to get the person unstuck from the idea of self-transformation I’m so glad or they can become better I’m so glad we got here because this is where I wanted to kind of land here is is and and and I think In you know, and I don’t want to be too obviously too harsh with my words to you, man You’ve been a very gracious host and conversation partner but in some of the critiques and in you know, the the the the wrestling that you have done with me today, I I think I think I have I have landed. I think a lot of it has landed. Well, I think I think I’ve I’ve My perspective has been a little bit rounded in the mark lefaber color today I know that’s mixing metaphors, but you get we’re dealing with complex stuff here, but but here’s what I would say in the socratic jv uh, you know, uh, uh socratic, you know, uh, uh, Uh as as my hero kind of you know, jesus socrates and buddha notion would be here’s where I would offer is Then could you mark? Can you mark for me? And this is kind of ha ha ha with a good faith but steel man, can you steel man for me That little sliver that notion of a and I would say I mean I don’t want to use the self-transcendence because we kind of just pooh poohed that but but what is the steel man the the proper small narrow Here’s here’s where it is useful notion of an individual of a single let’s not even do that of a single person That is trying to participate in the highest good and I kind of I kind of gave you a little bit of hint of where I think it is there but but but I think you get where my question is Can you steel man that part that we’ve kind of been beaten up now now? Can you give me? Okay. Sure I can Uh, and this is what no one’s talking about except peterson. I would argue You as a person have a responsibility Not only to yourself but outside yourself. Yeah, because there is no single self, right? Right, but the but the responsibility that you have as a person that you see in the world Has to be taken seriously enough as a responsibility to yourself At the same time in other words You can’t look at the world and critique that without also looking at yourself and critiquing that And that will engender humility that is There’s the sliver of the world. There’s the sliver of individualism that that we can stand on That don’t go don’t go haywire with that. Yeah, you don’t like right you don’t want to take away The devil is do any metaphor like that That you know, this is the thing of liberalism of modernism is this is this infatuated I think it’s this left brain thing if I got the idea this having mode confusion this modal confusion It’s like none of this stuff is it’s just like what happened with me the exemplification that happened with me five minutes ago When you said but you can’t make knowledge the highest good I was just like Duh, that’s the thing that that’s the thing that all the sacred that the cow is like is is once that clicked. It’s like Yeah, yeah Yeah, if you had it all like you had all the knowledge and it didn’t click until you the participation in the in the conversation Right. Yeah, right and then and then right so I can redeem all that I just did it like on this live stream I just redeemed conversation as a way to save the world Yeah, sure, but it’s not conversation. It’s doing the work what’s doing the work is Me figuring out what what you’re talking about and then showing you the frame Right that allows you the insight in a in a beautiful way We just exemplified what we’re trying to talk about right here exactly and then your responsibility is to be open to the insight Yes, and that’s what no one’s doing right? Yeah, exactly exactly That’s exactly the right response. You need to be open to the insight. You can’t still defend I’m gonna get a book and read it. You can’t still defend i’m gonna figure out what the masters meant You can’t still defend i’m gonna go to to to a guru for six months or six years even And do the thing you can’t defend that anymore If that’s what that’s that’s the problem I feel like the one of the things and again I don’t want to oversimplify a lot of the eloquence and you know the depth that you’ve had But I think one of the things that where my brain is going is the mcgillchrist thing is I think you’re you’re trying to remind Us is like hey the right brain you I don’t want to cuss but you jokers the right brain is the mass and I obviously Even that again I mean the master is the master. So let’s let’s be let’s be precise But but even that i’m sure you don’t want this right brain dominated world But what we have today is this grotesque left brain having mode, you know, uh, you know, uh Chasing the proposition and it’s like no, I think This this this this step back this bigger picture this right brain notion can can really say it’s like hey Even that notion of individualism shouldn’t be worshiped You know, there’s a grain of truth there that the left brain can model and we can work with but it’s like This is the right brain’s the master and the ultimate good is the ultimate good You know speak with it with with ultimate humility and you know, the the fear of god begins with is this beginning of wisdom, you know, right? No, well well well said I like that. Yeah, and I think I think that’s the problem is that People are associating will say Individualism with agency And when we speak against individualism, they feel that you’re speaking against their personal agency And we we kind of touched on that in the opening with the action thing and I go to You know, I go to you know, he actually just uh passed dr. Michael suger, you know, there’s a few of these You know you know of him There’s a few of these youtube philosophers that I that I really became fond of on my journey here and he’s one of them anyways, he mentions this This this acknowledgement of the structures of the structures that we participate in but the structures remove agency structuralism Removes the the the agentic, you know, and I think and I think too I want to just touch on you know for the age agency Conversation since we did kind of finally bring it in as as explicit here You know the free will conversation comes right in floods right in when you open that door And so, you know, I’ve said it to jacob and I just i’ll offer it to you I don’t know how much longer you want to go with we’re kind of stretching here now but um my move with the free agent or free agent free will thing is degrees of freedom with the agent arena, uh Dynamic cup, you know, there’s that with those two ideas my my my brain my cognition is able to to Maneuver that that obstacle like it doesn’t it doesn’t put there’s no blockage for me Right because I understand that there’s a degree of freedom for for what i’m able what we and I am able to do in reality and that there is this we are the beavers, you know, I mean it’s like we’re in the what do they call the the Paleo the paleo us Paleo scene right now, uh Or it was where no no no We’re in this the the the age where man is affecting the environment. I can’t think of the right right There was just a documentary about it. I can’t Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s one way to it’s one way to to divide it up. I think again the The problem is that people don’t understand what freedom means right freedom from versus freedom to uh, and they don’t understand what agency is And the bottom line is that structures allow you agency because without them there’s too much choice and you get analysis paralysis There’s a dynamic there’s a dynamic dance Exactly, and you need that dance And the problem that I have with verveky’s agent arena relationship is that there are no arenas with only one agent and there are no agents in only one arena and when you add that then everything sort of falls apart Sort of well, and I think it’s his kind of we’re kind of coming into that same pattern is What he’s starting from is that he’s coming from a cognitive science, you know He’s coming from the the western it’s like he’s he’s he’s he’s coming from an individualistic perspective Yes, he’s stuck from the get-go from from your critique. Exactly mark. I have really could I think we’re anyways I’m enjoying this so much. I don’t want to uh love bomb you too much, but i’m i’m really And i’ll say this too and i’ll just put the elephant in the room, you know Because I am the extrovert, you know, you have a little bit of a reputation in tlc and and again You’ve had some pushback here and some stiff, uh what I call wrestling with me here But I mean you’ve been you’ve been a fine gracious host because here’s the thing mark and here’s why I think it’s so valuable Like the jacob and and at the end of the day What is going on a lot and why these communities distributive cognition works is because this Propositional tyrannage age the age of gnosis puts you in the age of bullshit And so we are struggling with sense making and so but one thing that is not cannot be allowed here is nonsense And you and jacob are do not put up with nonsense and i’m the same way and I think jd That’s why I think his vocab is so fundamental not only because it links the different pools and communities with you know With such a profound cutting-edge vocab, but it also There isn’t there’s not I mean You’re well read enough and intellectual enough to where you have some critiques and he’s not he’s not jesus Okay, so his work is able to be critiqued. He has even offered critiques of it, by the way jv has offered critiques of his own work, but the fact is is There there is a no there is a not there is a no nonsense to it. There is a hey, man Here’s the cutting-edge cogsci that just rebutted everything you just said but you know, there is that aspect to it and so the I guess I just want to you know Kind of encourage you a little bit, you know, everybody can work on their character and be more well-rounded but The the the disagreeableness the calling out bs the saying hey, man That’s nonsense. That is a value brother and that does that doesn’t you know It doesn’t need to be lost and it doesn’t need to be forgotten and it’s not on me. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah Ethan if structures didn’t provide freedom, we would never seek advice or counsel, right? Sally joe discipline equals freedom Discipline equals freedom we sailed beyond the tlc waters because the taxes were bs Beated since fear forever. Yeah, and and look, I mean, I think I think that’s part of the problem is we need filters Right. They’re good at filtering, right? And and i’m good at filtering and a lot of the people critiquing me Are a lot of the people who are at once saying you should be part of this You are part of this and trying to get me kicked out. Yeah, and and also I think it’s also too It’s it’s just what I call this what I call existential, uh opposites or enemies It’s like they’re just on the other end of the the specter of the disposition and they’re not they’re not handling it My opinion they’re not handling optimally. I would say some of them are snakes and they just that’s the case too, right? Not everybody’s a good good faith actor. That’s not everyone’s a good faith actor You’re talking to the convicted criminal like if anybody knows snakes, uh, look I I got a gauge for it too brother So yeah. Yeah. Well and the thing is I think there’s a you know to go back to the flood of information problem with sense-making I think what’s confounding people’s sense-making around snakes, especially on the internet is Maybe there’s a snake or two in the garden and everybody knows that And it’s probably easier to see when there’s only one or two of them But when you’ve got a pit of vipers People start going well, they’re all saying the same thing. Well, and you’re the bad guy Well, and that ruins your sense-making can I give context to I wouldn’t even say pit of vipers? But I would say when you have a culture that is engaged in only developing and encouraging snakes and vipers And maybe that’s kind of you’re saying the same thing whatever but but I think just because I you know This is maybe my disposition. Like I said, I have I have a lot of that disagreeableness, too That’s partly why I clicked on here I mean in fact that that was the explicit notion in my cognition was all right me and this guy We have enough in common. We’re in the same community But we have just disagreed on enough points here in this chat where I have to go and speak up That’s literally why i’m in this decision. So it’s but but my point would be is to to do the socratic middle way thing is uh Is is if the culture is just you know, this is my thing is the culture is so toxic brother It’s like I don’t I don’t even blame the zombies, you know, I do not blame the zombies at this point I was the zombie brother. I’m a felon. I was I was doing it. I was doing it Oh, dude, here’s one. I’ve been been wanting to tell somebody that I’m this weird But I was this is kind of how left I was critical in my when I was in my lowest points I was critical race dating if if you can use your imagination to understand how that was worked I was manipulating the racial dynamics of the social discourse to get to to to get laid Okay, and by the way if you can wrap your mind around that disgusting disgusting low point in my life it worked Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I bet I bet but that that is the problem is that you know, we’re swimming in the sea of age of gnosis. We get overwhelmed And that’s why everybody was talking a while back about sense making right daniel schmackenberger and all those guys, right? They’re all talking about sense making but they never bothered to figure out. Well, where are we standing? But we’re standing in a flood Well, that’s why sense making is important. It has nothing to do with anything else There’s just too much stuff to make sense of We’ll see and that’s why I put jv at the pinnacle there is and that’s because I think nobody has And maybe you would say jp as well and I think jp there’s two tears I think jp as a character and as a man is definitely an integral profound, you know role in this moment But where my stick is Is for my lived experience in my journey and what I think is gonna get to the culture in my weird way I guess now that i’m saying out loud the left brain culture technical culture The the cutting edge cox eye can cut through it cut through for someone who was still kind of had the residue on me You know, I I was broken out of a lot of that old way and worldview and lifestyle but but it’s still like I was I came I came to this little corner into christianity and into you know, the neoplatonic view but and and You know kicking and screaming, you know, and but but but still had all the all the life experiences to all make sense You know, it was so it was so irrational looking looking back, but it’s like but my point is is is that that’s where I honked at jv horn is that is That that was the most profound thing to help me make sense all the schmuck number all the other Oh, yeah It’s like yeah That stuff was me Evolutionary biology when that joker And it happened within the 30 minutes of the first episode when he broke down How we started tracking the moon and calendars I was hooked and you know, i’ve watched the series Look, I mean look none of what i’m doing now happens without verbeke none of it not peterson I think you give more credit than a lot of people in this corner and that’s one of my bugaboos It’s so disingenuous to me every other word out of their mouth is one of his vocabulary and i’m like and yet you guys Over here. It’s like there there’s a there’s a fundamental aspect to what verbeke’s work has done that If you know you I agree that the the youtube manifestation. I 100 agree. That is a peterson phenomenon But to not recognize what this guy’s cognitive science vocab is like it’s it’s That’s almost a turn off for me But but we’ve taken a lot of his work and used it because Peterson’s a phenomenon Right, and he talks about meaning and whatever. It’s very pragmatic. I love pragmatism. I’m a pragmatist So whatever right but verbeke gives you a science of meaning he never had before I made this case elsewhere on vanu kles channel. I think it was my first talk with him. Maybe the second I forgot I’ll check it out. There’s something super important about that engagement which is that Now you can build tools And replicate some of what peterson’s doing and I think that’s what we’ve done Yes, right. We’ve taken that language fixed a couple things that I think john got wrong Right and expanded the work and then we used that and we’ve been doing this for four years now Uh to help people and we’ve been very successful at helping people. I’m going to a wedding in texas uh, just put the weekend before the tarpon springs symbolic world summit and uh, We met him on the discord and he was a mess And he he wasn’t going to church or anything and uh, we we randomly do the program man Awesome. That’s so beautiful. That makes me so so happy man um Man, uh, and that’s where vacie’s work like yeah I’m I guess it might be getting late. I don’t know how to little scatterbrain But that just remind he has mentioned explicitly because I am the jv nerd. That was his that’s his dream and goal He wanted to offer this and then have people in in different communities blossom Uh blossom and and utilize it and optimize it very very protestant. He doesn’t he doesn’t want to take responsibility I love that. I love that insight Here ethan wants to know your twitter handle. He’s like take on that Ashamedly, it’s it’s probably still because i’ve just been off it so long still probably Baited in a lot of the political bs, but I think it’s just my name. Yeah, it should just be my name I’m not scared once you’re a felon. You’re not scared of your name In fact, I got a funny story about that coming back to society and redemption of society I had you know, i’m from a small town on a social media a girl at like some kind of attempt at a dig tried to like reference my my my Criminal record and the the way the joke was for me was I said sweetheart You don’t realize that as soon as one becomes a criminal We we reckon with the fact that that record is public and that everybody like like the the the fact that she had thought that That was some like surprise on me that the mugshot was out there. It’s just like sweetie. Sweetie. Sweetie You didn’t know you were in jail. What? I think I noticed thanks. I love you mark. I love you mark Yeah, yeah No, and and and I I yeah, I mean all the stuff we do You know the whole reason why I have a youtube channel I mean all this is wrapped up in brviki’s work all of our work the the knowledge engine stuff You know, I I mean we ran that by john. He didn’t particularly care for it for for reasons, but um It’s all john’s stuff, right? We’re building on that again. I think there should be more responsibility there Um and and I’d say in critique of impigio and and pvk What I will do for jv and this is just my bias now ha ha ha but for jv He has been so open about his temperament and disposition that that is just so not him like he he’s mentioned in his Younger days of teaching this just shows how much of a nerd I am That how much that was a big part of his development social his social development, right? Because he was so socially inept that becoming the teacher leader role that interfacing with other people and other humans which just goes to show you by the way how Catastrophic freaking individualism is it’s like we have such freaking social uh, you know issues and and and and and you know, uh problems here my battery’s running low one second that it’s just like It’s obvious that this is just unhealthy for us. It’s obvious But yeah, so I him as a leader and in that community like I I you know again I’m putting my bias out there, but I do kind of understand like this paul. It’s like this weird your past It’s like and again, I do want to again steal man It’s like I said, there’s a threshold and a paradox in my opinion of you know The eminence and emergence of a leader. I don’t think a leader is just merged and I don’t think the leaders are just willed Right. Um, I think there’s more of a dance But I think there’s just like this this like pause like paul And and I will say even just the other day in a stream this lady don d which had the alcoholic, you know kind of moved me that He’s kind of got this community right here and it’s like he doesn’t want us in a way. It’s this implicit. I don’t want it It’s like hey, man We’re all and I mentioned it the other day. It’s like we’re in the throes of the I know you don’t like the term We’re in the throes of the the realm of gnosis of of modernity You know, i’m not going to co-yest acquiesce to everything you said we’re in the throes of modernity the flood of modernity. It’s like You know, and I don’t want to be overly critical because I mean he’s doing he’s got his whole life and he’s got lots of stuff On his plate. I’m sure but it’s like man. You got the thing right here You got the the 20 000 people subscribe to you the thousand that engage regularly, you know, right? And then they have the nerve the other just the other day and now I feel like I am getting overly critical to like mention and encourage uh Conferences, it’s like buddy, right? The person to make a conference is the three of you sitting here and I and to nate’s credit God bless nate and I love nate and I will be coming to nate’s if feasible Like I said, if feasible, I will not be missing another one of these conferences But nate in the in the north west I would be going to that one that he he kind of hinted at Um, I don’t know if you saw that conversation. That was a little bit of a rant. I apologize. That’s okay. Ethan. What’s going on? Hey um, yeah, we There’s just kind of a code here that We when mark’s in the room, we don’t use the word the term modernity Yeah, let’s say modern materialism I find out the hard way because materialism isn’t unique to modernity and modernity doesn’t accurately qualify the problem because It just describes his critique that it’s always modernity. So it’s kind of a relevant point. It’s a relevant term It’s yeah. Yeah, I kind of agree with that. It’s just so easy to say modernity Well, well, and if you’re gonna have philosophical rigs, you have to stand to that critic that critique and it’s like that critique It’s a mute term at that point. Yeah No, I I actually really appreciate that about mark um, even though it frustrates me that I have to say an extra Five syllables modern materialism um uh, because Something I’ve just realized over the past few days is mark is like one of the few people that I I know that Still it’s not it I don’t even I don’t even think i’m going to call it help but just for now i’ll call it help still has hope for um modern modern things the modern world, you know, he still has um, uh He’s he’s not going to bash. Uh, america like he’s he still thinks america is a a good A good place. He’s patriotic um At a time when it’s very hard to or where it was very excuse me. Let me Erase that when it’s very easy to be critical of america modernism and liberalism and all of that stuff, you know So I think it’s good Yeah, you just kind of called. Yeah, you just made me have a moment of self-reflection there. I mean, i’m i’m the obvious I mean, I just want to be uh vulnerable ha ha ha or put my cards on the table. Yeah i’m the i’m the obvious one there i’ve I i i Part of the one of the many factors of why I moved to west texas where there’s a complete little mexico here in west texas You know city here that I just moved to um, yeah, that’s fine Is is because you know, i’ve i’ve lost but you know, here’s my thing is is the true if you’re going to deconstruct the Peugeot moves to deconstruct it all don’t deconstruct at your own whim and convenience and so it’s like Once once you see the thing decaying in the problems and the critiques and the corruption. It’s like I deconstructed that It’s like america that american flag means and look this is where it gets gnarly My father’s a 20-year retired marine, you know marine, you know and and a different time Okay, so it’s a different thing and it gave me everything that that raised me but it’s like Whatever you want. I can’t Physi the phenomenological physiological Rule stands my body still curls at what it represents to me now like that that flag means it’s you know, so it’s It’s deconstructed out of it It’s a good for you mark that you can still kind of see the glimmer of and there was good there But my point is, you know, I can also highlight the last 60 years of straight criminality. It’s like, you know, it’s it’s so it’s messy It’s messy. And so I just want to take the self-reflection of like hey I need I need to see that and and have more graciousness to the to the construct that is american and patriotism and So thank you. Yeah Yeah, the well we were talking about this earlier today. It’s it’s just like if you You can’t exist without an identity. I mean identity is You could you could call identity your father If you I mean if if you destroy your father you you cease to exist tradition Yeah, yeah, yeah, um This i’ve been kind of i’ve been thinking about this a lot lately just going back to jordan peterson’s saving your father there’s there’s a difference between saving your father and Um judging your father one you’re supposed to do and the other you’re not but they both like they they easily get confused I’m not i’m i’m that’s so beautiful because to save your father You’re still there’s still an action right and there’s an implicit judgment there But but an over gross judgment a a moral judge a a a what I would say Because you’re always making a judgment, right? You’re always discerning and valuing and perceiving but but the distinction of like you said To the implicit judgment of but but the emphasis on saving it’s it’s To the hell with the judgment. I’m going to optimize and revive. Let’s tie it back into revivification and revive the tradition That is the metaphorical father. Yeah, I love that. I love that There’s something about rescuing your father where you’re There’s no judgment there there there. I mean That’s what i’m thinking Yeah, there isn’t any judgment I don’t know. Um, well, I mean you think of the story with noah and his sons One son judged him and the others two did not judge him and the way that that is is um Portrayed in the story is they cover him by walking backwards if you think of judgment judgment is looking And they like the image is very they could not have The way that the text is It could they could not have painted a more of an image that is not seeing they’re walking backwards with the With a garment to cover him. So there’s no judging going on there, but there’s there’s redeeming though or whatever you want to call it There’s there’s a there’s a saving there’s a saving element there. Yeah, and there’s But see I guess the bugaboo i’m rubbing on ethan is that to save means there’s an implicit judgment Because why would you be saving if it need not save if it need not revivification But because the tradition is or maybe or maybe it’s just the messiness of an inherent Pastness inherent Historosity of of a tradition of your father your father is by definition in the past But think about this for a second you can revivify something without understanding it Without looking at it and there and that that that that Blurries the the the implicit judgment part because how can you implicitly judge that what you cannot understand? Right, but you don’t have to judge it, right? You can just you could say all right I’m gonna do this because my father’s father’s father’s father’s father’s father’s father did it Whatever that it doesn’t matter right? It could be the family business. It could be going to church It could be by the way, by the way, I think this is the aunt is stuff, but go ahead Right, right Well, right because the the problem runs into what’s the odd and the bottom line is You’re a muppet i’m a muppet we’re all muppets We can’t figure out the odds We need that distributed cognition through time. This is where jv gets doesn’t talk about Through time to know the odds is a hyper object. Oh, yeah, absolutely Absolutely. What are we using that? Are we using that term now hyper objects? Well, i’m trying to use it to communicate i’m not we can we can push back on the term but i’m trying to communicate that Get my point. Okay. Sorry It’s odd is the your because what’s your point is the temporality you’re saying it’s you what you’re highlighting is the odd Is the is the is Takes into account the dimensions of the temporality over extended time and the distributed cognition over extended community Not just a single person that is a that is a fascinating point that I would like to hear jv going Is it not now he may have an answer for that? I’d have to chew on it myself as well The the odd is linked to discernment, right? It’s a vertical thing Yes, but you don’t you don’t have that discernment, which is why you go through the ritual Which is why you have the tradition right because the distributed cognition has already figured some of this out not all of it It’s not right about all of it. Here’s what I would offer. Here’s what I would offer here Here’s the my and I don’t necessarily know if i’m even defending jv at this point Maybe I guess because I have I kind of have bought into a little bit of his argument there But but at some point i’m still defending my ideas here, too So anyways, anyways, here’s what I would say. Maybe maybe to steal man Maybe he’s just maybe it’s just high and I feel like this is kind of just a at this point Maybe a cop out but I feel you should know i’m doing this in good faith This is highlighting the blurriness of I think this is what peterson does with the with the pragmatism and the truth It’s like if if it has worked pragmatically for millions of years is that truth? It’s like man it’s like and pageo at that point would throw up his hands anyways Pageo would say it’s like man. That’s irrelevant to the human experience It’s like conversations are supposed to be about the human experience. It’s like so it Something there. There’s something there Yeah, absolutely and I think that’s the distributed cognition through time point is the one that everybody misses if the distributed cognition through time then that Justifies tradition and it justifies you not speaking tradition to to too much right, because if that’s the case then that Distributed cognition through time is smarter than you So here’s all right, so I think I do know what jv’s move would be now now Let’s just play for a second. I think jv’s offer would be that’s implicit that that’s implicit that again What you’re critiquing is the implicit western scientific? propositional stance that I have to start off as as jv as being a cognitive science to explain and and I think that would make sense because I think I think you’re absolutely right. There’s obviously not an individuality single, you know Kantian, you know protestant freaking, you know self inside that’s doing it. That’s obviously obviously Invalid but I think I think What jv would say would be that it’s it’s implicit that that only now this is again this this modern materialist, you know, uh propositional Realm of gnosis. It’s like the sickness of of the atomized individual is now man. I I feel I Perhaps it’s just a highlighted extroverted, you know reaction to it, but it’s it’s a unique unique suffering You know to be you know, still living a pretty pretty great decent life for all the struggles I’ve had, you know I still have some privileges and and Gratitudes for sure. Yeah, we all we all do but yeah I mean, I think that’s when you start to consider distributed cognition through time That changes the nature of everything that brevaki is actually talking about And I don’t think he accounts for it at all. I’ve never heard him talk about this But you see my but you see my defense of that right is because he’s doing the cognitive science western systematic Yeah, he’s I know where he’s stuck. Oh, yeah, we know that’s his starting point exactly. We’ve talked to him We know exactly where he’s stuck Uh, you know, I wish I was you gauge. I mean I tried to work with the raveki foundation for a year All right, and that The reasons didn’t work out But I spent a year in meetings with them trying to you know build community and do all these things and you know, I know it’s a different organization now, but You know, there’s a there’s a way in which That’s not being accounted for and there’s a way in which they’re not talking I would say Appropriately and I think and I think that’s your point that that’s how protestant that’s his protestant move right? Right. Yes super it’s it’s it’s super protestant that you don’t But I guess here would be the and this would be again just kind of the socratic offering to you I’m not kind of at the edge here of my cognition or at least what I’ve thought about here on this topic would be Uh could Could Is the philosophical move the move of only the only way the only way is through is is that what they’re trying to do? I’m sorry that is that yeah Okay, okay. Well, then that’s kind of a defense then right? Well, but it’s wrong right because that’s emergence is good It’s it’s oh and it’s emergence is good just intrinsically. Yes Exactly, which is even nastier All emergence all progression all change is good I don’t even yeah, I don’t even like the word. Uh, I don’t even yeah I don’t even I just as far as evolution goes I just call it call it change or recently I’ve heard a christian just harp on the emphasis of natural selection and I think that’s a wiser emphasis But uh evolution implies like this t loss this this progress. It’s like that’s a christian. That’s a christian tanking there Yeah, you can take the t loss out of evolution like i’ll i’ll grant you on that i’ll say fine. That’s fine Are you defining evolution as a process? Okay, touche But what i’m in is in the pop cultural discourse when people say you’re evolved You’ve evolved that means there’s a there’s a verticality to that. It’s like bro. You don’t understand evolution at all No, because because in in a person Right can’t evolve that makes no sense That’s right. It’s a it’s a modal confusion of metaphor, right? Evolution happens and what’s that modal confusion evolution happens at the scale of multiple generations? Not at the scale of single instance birth Like single instant birth tells you nothing about evolution and and and and Evolution tells you nothing about single instance birth It doesn’t there’s no information transfer between those two things and so That’s part of that modal confusion that deep like oh we think we’re evolved or whatever, but the whole idea is emergence is good Right, you can take the t loss out of evolution Right. The problem is you have to define evolution as a process, which I think is correct What is that process discovering? something created Where did that come from? I think that’s the t loss. You know what just hit this is yeah, you can’t I think you’re more vervecian than verveci go ahead ethan I was just going to ask you. How do you how do you grant them the The the absence of t loss from evolution, but I don’t think you can you can’t you can’t get around it But you can you can take it out of evolution, but you can’t take it out of whatever We’re just deferring it to something else. You’re just pushing it in Yeah Yeah, that’s interesting what yeah, I would say I know verveci’s work pretty well, yeah Yeah, because here’s the thing is I think what you’re saying is it’s almost you’re you’re you’re Here i’m kind of at the edge of my cognition with this but what you’re saying is that Let’s harvest and re-engineer Because we’re in the realm of gnosis. We we must this is what we have this where we are. This is where we’re starting Let’s re-engineer the sacred and and how we can cultivate and attempt to make these communities but in the stead of like Instead of this new protestant religion that is not a religion Your Your move is to your move is to like you said is to we need to cultivate this the stance The stance that is allowed to To have this this transformation within community because there is no single person uh And I guess that would be aimed aimed at the at the most at the most good I mean now I guess you can get into moral relativism on different cultural relativism stuff on that right But is is that a little bit of a recapitulation on on your your? Sure, I think I think the way to think about it is there’s still no two things Still a bit deep confusion. There’s no binaries when you start focusing people on individuals on individualism What you’re doing is you’re flattening the world and making things equal right so that feeds into equality doctrine Which i’m also not a fan of But you also aren’t aiming up And I think the move people are making to Will say redeem individualism is to say we’re not aiming down and if you listen to the conversation closely Sam harris, what does he say? It makes two bad moves very bad moves. You can know the worst possible evil, which is garbage It’s obviously someone i’ve went complete 180 on Right, you can know the worst possible evil and then you can move away from it and it’s like Okay Maybe but away in a three-dimensional field means a lot of things And the least likely a way that you’re gonna get out of those you can you can critique every word in those in those in That set of propositions. Well, what what was it mark? You can’t you can’t find? uh You can’t fight you can’t find Mars you’ll never find mars by going the opposite direction of where it’s not Exactly you’ll never end up on mars. Well, and here’s where malcolm and simone they do offer some good stuff the the the negative What is it negative? Utilitarianism that that that is that was a great there’s urban monoculture and their negative utilitarianism Notions are are fantastic. Uh this this you know Whatever is useful to to remove the most amount of suffering. I mean, that’s freaking sam harris. It’s like First of all the the you you say you have this meditation wisdom the complexity and mysteriousness Of what the hell you are the self is it’s like You know you’re you’ve been navel gazing on that for 10 years pal I’ve not really come up with much sophistication about it and then the notion that you can navigate it Again by yourself with the mystery of you are not in a community that has Participated in these traditions that have been doing that. It’s like it’s it’s so it’s it’s very uber protestant new age in its own way You know, it’s it’s right and what ever question so many fronts hold on and what is it ultimately? Right because I want to I want to put up this comment from sally joe There is seeing the platonic and then they’re thinking you are the platonic one is useful and one is not And the deep that’s the deep confusion. How do you know that sam harris has that confusion? Because when he did his most recent interview with with peterson When peterson asked him like what are you up to what’s going on? He effectively said my life is better because I have no one critiquing me on on twitter. Yes Yes, I know all of the people that i’m talking to are friendly and nice to me, but you know what he didn’t say And and and even my good buddy bruce is very bright missed this he didn’t say the christian thing Which is what he’s doing for them Wow, yes, he never made that I didn’t get that Piece of garbage I didn’t get that point but I noticed the the the insular Firewall, I was like bro. Are you bragging? That’s not a plot. That’s not a plot mark mark. I’m a carpenter I’m a mechanic. Okay. I do not have an education I listened to that and this is some intellectual hero of and I said Are you bragging sir? I I I could you know, and and again, you know, let me let me step back with some humility 180 because I was that guy that was listening to that garbage now I will try to give myself a credit and some bone I was struggling through a freaking political mess and he was offering some political wisdom every once in a while You know, we have some pseudo political wisdom on a lot of it’s easy to see how the enchantment works Yeah, yeah in in the negative sense the the the illusion let’s write I don’t like the negative conversation with enchantment there. I think there’s a healthy enchantment, but sure But the illusion yeah, yeah, yeah the deception deception deception Ethan go ahead get a question Um, I was gonna say the the whole sam harris thing in his beef with suffering I mean that should immediately be obvious to any any christian that that’s that’s that’s That’s you can almost say it’s anti-christian If it it probably is anti-christian to to to and to identify against suffering. But then again like Um Do we know of any cultures that have Have identified Against suffering or is that just a uniquely sam harris thing? And I think it’s it’s such a foolish notion too just on a metaphysical kind of uh, uh, uh Understanding too is like and this I don’t want to be too self-referential here blah blah blah But I I mentioned it earlier. It’s like man one of my issues in life in uh in young life was I didn’t have to try It’s like effort is is sacrifice this effort this this uh, you know having having to Yeah effort is a sacrifice, you know It’s having to give up your time and attention and and your your resources too in it And so it’s to to even think that that’s not a part of life. It’s like brother I ran that when I was freaking, you know 10 10 to uh 25 and it ran me right into the dirt into a jail cell It’s like okay sam harris if that’s what you want to pump to the masses bro. It’s like, okay Yeah, uh, I mean if you think even like uh, like dianesis, right the god of I don’t Help me here. I i’m not an expert. He’s like he’s a god of blissfulness and pleasure, right? But like even the greeks weren’t retarded enough to think that like they knew that there were there were other gods in the pantheon That were that were opposed to that So they know that if you if you if he cultivated dianesis too much There’s something else that’s going to eventually come in conflict with it. There’s a trade-off there They they weren’t read my mind ethan. You just read my mind right when you mentioned dianesis That’s exactly where my brain was was exactly your point was the dance of the gods. You nailed it. You nailed it kid Yeah But that’s the problem right is that we’re We’re we’re living in a time and pizho john the majeure actually said this he said Uh, if you think that that christianity is not about suffering that jesus is not about suffering like you You’ve got something drastically wrong. Yes, if you’re gonna follow christ Uh, I got news for you. He was there across like I don’t know what else to tell you What’s that thing around your neck? But maybe if you’re not suffering, you’re not a good christian yet How’s that? It’s christians are for lions I well and I think it’s just a it’s just a bad world view I mean to not to not to seriously take into account of suffering. I mean, it’s just It just shows you the you know, they call mick mindfulness the the mick intellectualism that’s out there It’s just it’s it’s it’s rampant man But I did want to just touch one more time on because I love that point of you bring dianesis Who is this who is by the way, the more shadowy? kind of uh carnival kind of valve of of let off the the darker passions of of you know lust and party and And and and and uh inebriation um, and and you know kind of touching that liminal realm if I understand dianesis Right, you know, i’m no expert again. I’m a freaking i’m a carpenter carpenter mechanic But um, but if I understand it and so what the greeks did and this is what the greeks nailed, right? Or one of the things the greeks nailed for sure is they’ve had the track the tragedy in the comedy Okay, so they had these stories these dramas where like you said ethan to highlight your point They danced these gods danced and then are played with the the the human aspect and dynamics and in the narratives and And that’s how they you know, that’s how they wrestled with, you know, the ultimate reality You know, it’s like and and you know my little Caveat on that is from what I had heard was that was what play-doh was always going Wanted to be you know, that was the peak of their society and that socrates had grabbed his ear You know being socrates was and said no man, you need this is this is where the gold is And play-doh found a way like we do to synthesize and wrote dramatic dialogues and woven You know some of the most profound philosophy into some of the most beautiful art that isn’t necessarily a play but um I don’t know what it is. I just call it Well, those were all those were all communally read back in the day There was no privately read republic back in the day Those were you know, those texts were much different than what we understand as text. Go ahead ethan. I don’t want to overstate Oh, I was just gonna say I don’t I don’t honestly don’t know what genre the play-doh would be I don’t know how you He’s a genre he’s a genre breaker for sure yeah Well, that was explicit in in in the end of the republic too. Yeah. Yeah Well, and I think again that’s kind of in that story what i’m hinting to is that he he wanted to master both worlds of Of you know really dancing with the artistic the poetry the myth the mythic and You know the the profound the true and the transformative. I see you yawn and mark. Do you want to do you want to shut it down? Man, you want to land? I am I am going to shut it down. Yeah, okay So So yeah, I mean uh, andrea you have any closing comments for us? No, it was just good to say a very good interaction between you and matthew it was very spirited Yes, yes, I’m glad you got to a lot of good points Good all right. All right matthew. What do you got to close us out? um Yeah, I just want to say thank you. I haven’t done a lot of streams. This is just a First of a few um, I want to say thank you for your graciousness and you’re pushing me on some ideas And I want to say thank you for I think your good faith engagement when I offered pushback to you You know when I tried to uh, induce you out in a socratic way or kind of offer you a different perspective on stuff I thought you you held your grant. I thought you did great. You know, I mean you you were yourself so That’s great. Oh, thanks. Thanks. No, it was great to it’s great to meet you and have you come in and push back We appreciate that here ethan what you got what you got. You’re not a failure. Tell us not much Yes, i’m a failure every single day I’m just trying to fail a little bit less each day and if I can do that, i’m happy Very just kidding. I’m being i’m being falsely, uh Humiliated I like I like the Christianity there. That’s fun Um, I I can’t really think of anything. Um, uh, Matthew I’ve I’ve never seen you before are you on twitter? You’re muted You gotta unmute to talk I I am um, it’s just my name I’m not very active on there and it’s probably just some political slog from months or years ago uh, but but I will say this i’m I I do want The this i’m not we’re closing up here, but I do want to kind of start a youtube channel Maybe um, but it would want I just I don’t want to monologue. I have nothing to monologue about I’m not a profound thing. I would want to do stuff like this in dialogue So that would be maybe where you could find me here in the future. I don’t know other than that Yeah, it’s just you may be following on twitter, I mean it’s not hopefully i’ll see more more of you around here we have a little dialogue going on on twitter and um That’s how I keep in touch with people and transfer ideas. So I’ll look to follow. I’ll look to follow Uh, uh mark or yeah, or look to follow me. It’s my name. So maybe y’all can find me Yeah um Okay, uh, I can’t think of anything else. I’ll just end it with this that um, yeah don’t identify Don’t identify against anything and certainly don’t identify against suffering That’s not I mean, it’s not going to work. No one was dumb enough to make that It’s like it’s like sam harris is like stealing the monotheistic god idea and then like trying to smash some He’s trying to like make dianesis the monotheistic god and even the pagans weren’t dumb enough to do that. So Yeah, right. Well said well said yeah. Look, uh, I really enjoyed this guys Is a great a great stream I think we got somewhat to the bottom of this idea of failure and the asymmetry between success, which is external Right. It’s that thing you’re looking at outside of yourself and failure, which is actually mostly internal and uh, what you need to get out of that Ironically is humility Uh, and you need to be open to the signals from other people in order to get you out of that mode Uh, you need to be able to engage with people in a way that you’re ready willing and able to learn Because as long as you’re learning you can’t fail And that I think is the most important message that requires humility So that’s what you most need and look I want to thank everybody. Uh, Next week is cool I know we’re gonna we’re probably gonna miss two weeks in a row here because I got a good wedding and then i’m gonna be At the symbolic world summit, but I want to thank everybody. I will see you next week I don’t know what the topic is going to be. I got a couple sitting in the live stream notes File, so I don’t know what which one i’m gonna pick here Uh, but you know, we’ll we’ll do it on the discord server the market wisdom discord server. We’ll figure it out buy some merch Comment on some of my videos. Uh, if you like what you see, let me know and uh, have a great week. I’ll talk to you all later