https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=RdEa4JqwV-4
So that reminds me too, there’s a, who’s, I think Peterson brought this up, but I also read it somewhere else where like the emperor is the lowest figure of mocking. And they just parade him around and like strip him down naked and throw food and stuff on him. And it’s like the lowest of the low. This would have been one day, I think he was talking about in, I think it was in the Assyrian empire, I think that he was talking about the Babylonian. Someone, one of the Eastern empires where one day of a year they would humiliate the king. Right, but in that sense, it’s kind of like interesting where it flips. It’s like the highest becomes the lowest. And I suppose we see this in Christ, right? Right, Christ is the ultimate version of that pattern. He really brings it to a limit that is hard to over, that can’t really be, there’s no more virgin after his version. In his version, the crucifixion is so extreme in how it does that, that I don’t see how you can, every time I talk about it, I just, my mind short circuits because I can’t contain all the elements. I can’t, I try to, and I’m like, it’s like, I’m like, okay, he’s on the cross. There’s a panel which is saying that he’s the king atop of his head, but they’re actually mocking him. So it’s sarcasm. I talked about this recently where sarcasm is part of the end of meaning because it’s, you say something, but you mean the opposite of what you’re saying. So it’s like the last word because it’s saying something, but understanding that while you’re using a statement, you’re actually saying the opposite. So like he has a sarcastic statement above his head, which is saying king, king of the Jews, but then ultimately that sarcastic statement ends up flipping in the resurrection where he does manifest his kingship. And then you’re like, you know, what, what? And then you also have a weird moment where the Romans put that up, right? Right. King of the Jews, but then the Jews are saying no, then Christ resurrected and he becomes king of the Romans. Yeah. And it’s like, it just, if you keep going, cause there’s more, right? Just keep going. And at some point you just shatters your whole category system. And so it’s so, there’s so much in there. Yeah. I keep trying to tell people I’m like, yeah, modern movies, like even the good ones, they’re good. But like when you approach the Bible in this manner, it’s better and it just gets better and better and better. The closer you look to it, because like you learn something, right? It gives you like this platform of understanding. And then you stand on that and look and reread it. You’re like, oh my gosh. And then you read something else and you read something else. You come back to it, you read it again from another platform. You can see further, deeper, more intricacies, you know, it’s more hyper-connected. It’s just exciting. I don’t know. It’s an exciting experience. I mean, it’s meaningful. Like it’s life, you know, it’s not like some limo place where you’re like, you can’t go to Arkham, you know, and you know, partake in the Batman universe. Like that’s not possible, but you can’t go to Jerusalem. You know, you can’t go to Jericho. You can go to Egypt and you can participate in the story in a way that’s like narratively, unfathomably deep and profound. And at the same time, you get to like act it out and be a member in it. Not like as a playtime, but actually like life. Real life, yeah. Oh, you’re right. Yeah, it’s pretty, it is definitely amazing. I mean, I’m excited also to see people realize it. Like realize that, you know, there’s been a sense in which we, there has been a sense in which a lot of the Christian message has been moral, which is fine. Like a kind of moral idea, you know, Christ is saving you from your sins, is saving you from these moral failings that you have. And so there’s an emotional, there’s an emotional healing maybe that you go through, you know, through that. But I’m just, I’m excited that people are also seeing that the actual narrative itself is so intense. Like there’s so much in that story that you, like I said, as soon as you start thinking about it too much, all of a sudden you short circuit, you have to, and it’s wait and then come back to it later and noticed even more. So yeah. Yeah. And you know, your brother’s book, your work, Alistair Roberts, I mean, there’s James Jordan’s book, Through New Eyes. Have you read through that one? Yep. So I mean, like these things have like just, at least personally opened me up and many others to be able to read the biblical literature with such a profoundly holistic and engaging way. Like, I was reading through the headlines and the outlines of the gospels recently. And it just amazed me where it’s like, you know, if I were to approach this as like, you say like for my California Buddhist days, like it’s not that impressive, you know, like it doesn’t list out these like head twisters or these like super simplified condensed, you know, sayings that really gets you like, oh wow, there’s not a whole lot of that. And then like, narratively speaking, like on the surface level, it’s like, it doesn’t do a great job telling a story because it like blurts out the ending and the resolution all the time. Like, especially in the Gospel of Luke, it’s like, oh, and the reason why he said that is because he’s gonna be killed. You’re like, oh, well, come on, that’s like taking the cliffhanger out of it. But then when you like take a step back, read, you know, and watch your material, your family’s material, Alistair Roberts, like so many others, and all of a sudden you’re like, oh man, and then you read the context from which it was unfolded or blossomed, which was the Old Testament. And you realize, oh man, this is not just the climax of one story. This is like somehow, like miraculously, this is the climax of like 50 stories or a thousand stories all at once in history. Like. No, it’s amazing. And you can, and even in the text, there’s a sense in which if you’re attentive, you can notice that the disciples don’t totally know what’s going on. Even as it’s happening, they’re kind of have, they have this insight, but they don’t have enough to fully put the puzzle pieces together. And then when it’s over and they receive the Holy Spirit, all of a sudden it’s as if it all just comes crashing in on them. And they just kind of realize they have this insight about how it all connects together. Just imagine them having that one moment here, because they were with you, and they saw these things and they were all kind of mysterious to them. They knew enough to say, well, there’s something, we need to follow him. Like there’s something there. And then all of a sudden it hits them like, this is like, this is the end of the story of Moses, right? It’s the end of the story of Adam. It’s the end of, and it all kind of. David, it’s the prophets. Yeah. Gosh, it’s even the outsiders. The cool thing about, so like say Alistair Roberts book, Echoes of Exodus. So he takes all of the different role players, so like even with Pharaoh, the messianic type deliverer figure, the different symbols of crossing water. But the interesting thing is the role of women and then the role of the Gentile. And you see by the time of Acts, you take this outsider kind of on the fringe character. And Ethiopian Units. And it flips. Oh man. Yeah. And it flips. There’s so much in there, yeah. And all of a sudden it’s like the main point is Rome. And you’re like, oh man, the people that are off on the side, they only got like a line or two maybe, or they’re the bad guys the whole time through the Exodus story and through the Philistines and David and the restoration period or exile period. And all of a sudden, boom, like they’re the whole point. And Paul is directing all of the attention towards. And if you go outside of scripture and you continue the story, you realize that when Rome converts, just what that means and what it is in terms of this reconciliation with Esau. And in the gospel, like the relationship between Rome and Esau is there. People, they struggle to see it because it’s not super obvious, but Herod is an Edomite. And so Herod is a descendant of Esau. And he’s a king that was placed by the Romans on the Jewish state. But he wasn’t a Jew. He was an outsider. I mean, he probably practiced a form of Judaism, but he was not of the tribe. He was an Edomite. He was a descendant of Esau. And so you can understand that even in the first century, in the story of Jesus, there’s a relationship between Rome and Edom in the story where it’s like they kind of fuse together as this character, like the kind of cane figure that wants to kill his brother. So anyways, yeah, it’s pretty, it’s just, it’s pretty. And also because even later, the early rabbis, they made that connection explicitly. Like when they say, they talk about the kings of Edom in their own rabbinical texts, they’re talking about Rome basically. So it’s just really fascinating. Well, just see, like the other thing that Roberts does that I feel like really helps me because I have a musical background is that he says, like, if you approach literature of the Bible, musically as like a controlling metaphor, then that helps you understand how the writers are playing upon different, call it movements, like different plot structures and motifs. So like whether it’s symbols or different patterns, highly condensed patterns that you can see either stretched out or played with, kind of like how Hendrix would cover Dylan, or something like that, where there’s something recognizable in it, but then it’s something unique all to its own. And just in your example, the fact that they’re playing upon not just a few of the themes from Genesis, but like several of the different variations upon, like say the, like how you said it in the last conversation, Genesis one through three is like the pronouncement of the core pattern. And then you see all of its different variations and expansions in Genesis. And so like in the gospels, it’s just amazing how it’s like the master conductor, how they’re acknowledging, including all of these different themes within 20 chapters. It’s fascinating. Yeah, and it’s hard to, and it’s hard, and it’s also done in a way that doesn’t call attention to itself. And I think that’s why a lot of people miss it, because like the style of the gospels is just so simple and straightforward. And there isn’t a lot of the, like you said, for example, like if you read some Buddhist texts and there’s like this amazing contradiction that is so clearly stated as a Cohen that wants to kind of jar your thinking and stuff. Whereas Christ dissimulates the things he does in a very simple common story and very simple common things. And so it’s sometimes, so you can also have sympathy for people who don’t necessarily can’t see it because Christ himself tells us, like for some people, this is just gonna be veiled. It’s gonna appear as veiled and they won’t understand what’s going on. So you can sympathize with people who are just like, what is this story about this guy who like he gets killed by the, he gets killed by the Roman state, by his own people and the Romans. And it was like, this is the foundation of a religion. He said some good stuff, but you know. That’s a good point, the sympathy aspect, because when I was reading it, just like I mentioned before, taking a step back, right? And just kind of maybe having an exercise where I forgot all of the different ways of seeing that I’ve had the fortune to learn over the years and just like compare it as such to other books. And it’s like, you know, it might be kind of gray, but then all of a sudden, you know, you have teachers come, right? Whether it’s reading your books or, you know, priests or theologians or storytellers or someone inside, right? And they hold up like a flashlight and it’s like a blue light or something. And all of a sudden, all of the letters like come alive and you can see like different color patterns and different like ultraviolet. Like it just becomes something so much more, you know? Yeah, and sometimes it can happen to you even. So one of the, some things that sometimes what happens to me is there are some stories which are still on the back burner for me that I don’t understand, like even in the gospel. But I’ve had enough insight and insight moments in some of those stories to think, no, it’s not the story, it’s me. Like that’s for sure, it’s definitely not the story, right? But there are moments where, you know, I look at some detail in scripture and I’m like, what is this? Like, I don’t know, I don’t know, what is this? I don’t hear, what is this talking about? Why is this such a big deal? But then I usually, like, I’ll just leave it there. I’ll just leave it and just continue on my life. And then sometimes out of the blue completely, you know, like it just, it’s like a lightning bolt that hits me. And then when I see it again, I’m thinking, how could I not see this before? Like how is it that I couldn’t see this was what it was about? Yeah. And so then you’re like, okay, well, that’s, it’s kind of like that for everybody, I guess. And for a lot of people, because there are still some stories that, that when I look at them, I’m kind of like, nah, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know what that means. Like, I don’t know why is it that Christ is saying that or why is he doing that? So. Yeah. I mean, like, like in our last talk, you talked about the donkey. Why does Christ ride the donkey? Right? Another kind of odd story to me is like, why go get the fish and find a coin in the mouth? Like what the heck was that talking about? Yeah. Right. And then all of a sudden you go back and you read like the book of numbers or like first Kings or Chronicles or something. And all of a sudden you read some, some detail in that story that all of a sudden just opens everything up to what’s being told later. Like thousand years, 2000 years later in the gospels, you’re like, oh, you know, it’s kind of like that musician that just has that lick and he knows just the right time to put it in, to acknowledge what happened before, but then make something new. But then the really interesting thing about the gospels is that it’s really filling in the details of the end or the full picture as well. Yeah. It’s filling up the picture of the, like the kind of vision, the final vision of it all, you would say. Oh, you’re right. Yeah.