Intimacy - Skyler - Unfolding the Soul (1ANMBqGJkOk)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=1ANMBqGJkOk

Hello, everyone. Today we’re going to have another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Skylar. I’ve met him on the Discord where he’s a passionate follower of this corner of the internet. Today he’s going to be talking to us about intimacy, which is also one of the recently developing subjects on this corner of the internet. So, yes, Skylar, what would you use as a definition for intimacy? At its most basic level, it would be being close and having a contact with another. So being able to maintain what you are or being able to be close and connected with another. And then contact, not just like aware of. So what would you say that the contact signifies? Like what’s the distinction between just being close and being close and in contact? Well, being close, I went to school with like the same group of kids from kindergarten through most of high school and in college. It’s about 90 of us. And we were all very close during that time because we had to spend literally our entire lives together. But I’m not in contact with like any of all of them pretty much went and did their own thing. All of us, some of them have stayed in little groups. So that contact, I would say, is something more like genuinely when you’re in contact with something, you stay what you are, but you actually do start to conform or map on. You see what’s good in the other thing. It’s worthwhile of it. And that’s where you’re able to conform or configure to it. And that means you’re going to lose a little of what you are. But what you’re trying to do is get rid of the worst parts of you or the things that aren’t worth keeping of you. And when you’re around others and you have a good contact with them, the word, I mean, I got that definitely from contact epistemology, which is like, you need you need to have a touch point in where you know you don’t want your map. You don’t want your map in reality just to be like overlaying and be like, look, they match perfectly. You want your map in reality to actually like overlay. So that you can. Yeah, you want to be able to go on your map and kind of change it a little and then come back out and go into reality, you know, want to be able to move back and forth between them, I think. And so that’s why I think contact matters. So, so, so what you say that if you’re not living in contact, but you are in the closest you’re kind of living in an illusion. Certainly, yeah, there’s people who live. That’s like, one of my favorite points in the little verveky zombie book is then talking about, you know, zombies in a crowd, but they’re all alone. And that’s a very common expression of people nowadays where they live with a roommate, they know nothing about their roommate, except for like when they use the restroom and that they leave their dishes out. So basically like we only see each other as human creatures. As I like I got a dog more or less like this is what their pattern is. And that doesn’t mean you have any actual contact or anything you know just living with someone doesn’t mean you’re actually in right relation or communion with them. So what you’re describing there is like a utilitarian right like how am I affected by this person, like what do I need to know. Yeah, I think that’s kind of the layout of most of our. It’s not the ideal it’s I’m definitely not a utilitarian, but I see that that ethos it’s so rational. It’s so logical that people have kind of slid into it and that’s why I don’t know any of my neighbors. That’s why it’s hard for me to strike a conversation with my brother-in-law, and I live with them. We can, where you have great conversations it’s just, there’s an actual difficulty there and I live with him. I’m helping raise his daughter, my niece. And yet, him and I have to like, put on put effort into talking to each other, like we wouldn’t naturally be friends, as you were kind of alluding to the other, or I’ve heard you allude to before more than once for friendship isn’t necessarily required. He’s my brother-in-law, I really care about my niece. Him being a friend would actually be probably detrimental to me and him being brothers-in-law. We need to prioritize that connection, that relationship, that contact, but that means we lose other things, if I are not as close in other ways. Yeah, I think the utilitarian aspect of it is very scary because I grew up where everybody was very name-droppy. Everybody was in these inner cliques and if I used to work with someone, or they used to work with someone, that’s how they got up the ladder was not just social reference, but that kind of pseudo connection, like pseudo contact. Association. Yeah, just association, and that’s all it is instead of actually having real, it’s like I went to school at the same school as some famous guy and it’s like what does that have to do with it? What does that have to do with anything? People do that because they want to feel that connection, that intimacy with this person that they actually have nothing to really relate to. Well, it’s sharing in the glory, right? It’s a sense of participation, but not earned. Yeah, pseudo participation is how I see it. And I think, I mean, especially it’s just I’m very against most every form of social media, I mean, even on Discord very erratically. So it’s just very disheartening when I see people so convinced that this is more real than the conversation they can have around a dinner table. And we really need to find a way to have people just meet and have dinners together and just do basic human things together. Because that’s where the magic happens and that’s where you actually get that contact, I think, is when you ask someone to pass the solder, you see them have a partition their food. You know, I watched a couple recently eat, and the man literally stirred everything we gave him like the potatoes and the meat and the peas, he stirred it together and chopped up the meat and then stirred it and ate it like that. And his wife literally like had everything partitioned so nothing touched and was eating everything separately. Like she all her peas. And I’m like, wow, here’s two people like they’re married. And they’re that separate. So, wow. And my wife and I are very, very different. So it’s like I get that. And then when we went did our Myers-Briggs, her and I are both ENJP, which is like the rarest one. We were the only couple that made it through the whole section as a couple with the same of all 16 Myers-Briggs and it’s like, yeah, I get told that too. So it’s really opposite as my wife and I are with on the Myers-Briggs, we have the exact breakdown. So it’s like, kind of weird. So the last thing I wanted to add is the closeness right so we’ve been dancing around closeness a little bit. Right. But why do you think closeness is important for intonation? I have no idea why this thought popped in my head. So I’m going to give it a go. Bill Burr was talking about a comedian friend of his who passed. Patrick, Patrice O’Neill. And he was trying to explain to the other and you can see Bill Burr gets somber and says, you know, I still have talks with them. I still talk to Patrice. He’s still part of my, my movement. So the biggest influence on me, Bill Burr is not a huge influence, but a very big influence on me would be Robert Anton Wilson. He has an interview very late in his life. I promise this will make sense to closeness. He has an interview very late in his life, where his wife has passed. He’s getting the third or fourth time is getting polio so he can no longer walk. And in his dreams, his wife is dancing with him and stuff and they’re young, and they look around and all their friends are old, and then he wakes up and he’s in an empty, you know he’s in a bed by himself. And then he explains to the reporter like, I still have my wife with me, I still talk with her she’d been in my life for 40 something years 50 something years. I never However, I know it’s her in my head and not me because she does little things that I couldn’t expect, which is what my wife did as much as I knew my wife she would still be this little quirk. That’s how you notice close to someone because if you’ve mapped them. And you actually think you’ve mapped them you’re not close, because everybody’s going to do these little quirks. And when you’re actually close to someone, you really learn to appreciate those little spin offs as little quirks. So, I had a friend, a friend called Frickin Chad posting those random clips he posted one with Jim Brewer, whatever the other, the comedian guy on Glenn Beck, very strange conversation. And it’s really important to him realizing just how helpful and how real some of those cheesy expressions are and some of those, those, those relationships you have those that closeness the intimacy you have with someone so closeness has a lot to do with which is about the most physical, but even when someone passes, you can still have closeness to them if you actually think about them every day, you can hear them in your head still. So, closeness isn’t locked to that but it certainly has a lot to do with. In some sense, I hear you say that closeness is, is not a physical thing but more like an internalization of the other. So, I think that’s the, that would get to where it’s hard for me to agree but I, it’s like words get so difficult there, because it’s like, when I did their own linguistic programming, that’s exactly what I thought. So, the NLP part of my brain. That’s how I map all of this, I think that I’m basically igniting the placebo effect in my head and creating a subroutine personality of this person, so that I can keep them with me even though they’re gone. So, that’s where my meat monkey brain really wants to but then that doesn’t explain those weird surprises or the things that I can get told by people who aren’t here anymore who I know I’m close to, who I don’t care about me. So that’s where it’s like, I don’t know about that because I, that’s really weird to me, sometimes tells me things and I’m like, what the fuck, brain. Well yeah, I, yeah, I’ve done CVT most of my life like since I was 11 so I know how to talk back to my terrible thoughts but especially when I get motivation. I was around quite a lot. I’m 30 years old right now, I’ll be 31 in October, and I was around a lot of World War Two vets considering I was born in 1991, like is just my dad’s a Vietnam vet and a lot of the people I got to be around, or late Vietnam vets, Vietnam vets, World War Two vets. There was a particular guy named Ray Kinsman, and he was a very strange fellow. Kinsman, he says I’m your brother, is he’s your kin. That’s his little one liner. He was about 96 or 97 when he passed in like 2020 right before COVID. And he was raised in an orphanage, lied about his age to get into the draft of World War Two, he was in the first wave he was in Italy, became a POW of fascist Italy, talked back to the guards and got his eye beaten. So he was blind in one eye. Goes all the way through the war. Instead of just being relieved at the POW camp when they get raided he just eats and starts moving on with the army going north. He was a very hard guy. When he passed he had 28 great grandkids, and none of his kids or his grandkids had been divorced. And like, he grew up in an orphanage, like, and to see the tenacity of that man he sold businesses, he was a huge donor to the nonprofit we helped, he helped start, basically. But he wouldn’t let anybody know that he was donating, he just wanted to make sure that we didn’t close. And to see the tenacity and the closeness, he would, he’s an old old man, and he works out three days a week you’d shake people’s hands and just death grip them. So I’d let my friends meet him and it’s just fun because they think they’re going to like take the hand of this rickety old man. And here he is like tonka death grip, you know really manly trying to be machismo and he’s in his late 90s, mid 90s. It’s just like, it’s unbelievable. At my wedding he was 94, 95. So like, very impressive fellow, and he’d get so intimate with people. I watched so many people just break down in tears talking to him and his wife. He just, he just lay things on he’d recall something in his life that he hasn’t told anybody in decades, probably, and he’d listen to what you’re saying go, oh, this is what you need to hear and he just laid on them. And it really opened me up to be more intimate more just like, oh, when I have this weird thought. And it’s probably too much for this person. But that’s better than not enough. I think those are where I just see that dichotomy now is you’re stuck between too much or not enough. And I’ve decided to lean towards too much. And sometimes I can get all existential and scare people, but I try to be on like the more curious side if it’s going to be too much but I really think that that’s the kind of me we’re stuck in. And when you’re with closeness, you want to have too much. And it’s like, it’s, it’s how you know you’re really close with someone I can’t get certain people out of my head even though they’re past. And then I have a teacher who like definitely left an imprint on me, and he’s still in my head I was only around him for one year in class for one hour a day like technically it wasn’t around me very much I forgot all my other teachers names pretty much. How come this guy is like seared into me. Like well you told me stuff I really didn’t want to hear a lot, things like that so I think closeness has all mean it just. If I was going to put it down and like where I will. It’s like where you meditate. You know Andre from Australia, him and I really like talking about Mr Rogers and Mr Rogers has an amazing commencement speech where he kind of warms up everybody and then he asked them for a minute of silence, and then during that minute of silence he wants you, I can’t think about if I start even doing the process. I get teared up, so I can like step away from it, describing it. He says, during this minute I want everyone here to be silent. This is their graduation, right they’re all in there like cap down blah blah blah. Here’s Mr Rogers telling I want everybody sits perfectly silent for a minute. And then he’s like, I want all the people who helped you get here. All the people who encouraged you, all the people who took something out of their day out of their time to give you the opportunity to get here. And then just, you know, be grateful for them. That’s like, most people have genuinely never done that thought experiment because so much has happened to get most everyone right where we are. That’s why I believe you can have a level of closeness or intimacy. One of the more Protestant Bible guy I really like. I’m not going to name drop them right here, but I can mention it later. He has this, this quote that popped in. When he, when I found out he passed away during COVID, his quote popped in my head instantly, and it was like, I think Christian is a member is being a member of the world’s biggest organization, because we don’t lose members when they die. And when he said that, like, it, that’s, I mean I’ve remembered that since I was a little kid I was like eight or nine, when my parents were watching his like series unlocking the secrets of the Bible, and man, I just think that’s actually somehow real, If you’re close to people. It’s kind of like why I can agree with for vacancy degree when he talks about reading Plato you and I have discussed this before, we can read a book and say he kind of knows that person spinosa would be a good example. Well spinosa is maybe an example, a very small exception. One of the best writers alive, certainly one of the smartest people alive. Lots of time on his hands, all the world’s resources at his fingertips. So you can kind of inhabit his mind but most people you don’t get to read inside their thoughts like that most people can’t even organize their thoughts, like, at all, much less into tunes, like spinosa did so we get to stand on their shoulders. We’re, we’re using their words and don’t even know. That’s, that’s, that’s why I like to say that words are fossilized poems, and very often we’re using words and don’t actually know what we’re saying. So, Yeah, so I have. I have thought a lot. I don’t know I’ve thought a lot about it but I’ve talked about it some is awkwardness. Right. Would you say, yeah, awkwardness is too much of intimacy. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I would say it’s an extreme, because I can also think of examples of me being awkward because I was like, trying to be cool, you know like the kid he’s trying to act like he doesn’t care and then you know he really cares. See that’s awkward because that’s playing on that movement still. And I really agree though I mean I think I think as soon as you start trying to extreme it awkward. But awkward is something you need to really. I’m sure it’s lost to the ability to like be comfortable with awkwardness. So I run a soup kitchen, and we feed like 15 to 45 people a night up in rural Arizona, and we have some very awkward people come through that just lack people skills we had a lady who had been living out at one of the canyons right on the literal edge of town like where the town limits are. She was living on that canyon, so that she could be in town limits if she needed something. That’s how her brain kind of. She had not spoken to anyone since October, and she came in middle, like, early August. And like, she was awkward. She was awkward on a level that like made everybody stop and kind of like your conversation be interrupted because you’d hear her try to respond. And your brain would go what, and he just, she was so awkward and then by the end she was like back to being personable like two hours of. She became a charity Kathy and just couldn’t stop, but I think awkward is a very good thing to pick up on, because if you see someone awkward I think we need to learn how to help them. First episode of Mr Rogers is the crazy lamp lady collects lampshades and wears in his hats and stuff. Mr Rogers friends with awkward people. And he’s trying to show you that’s your neighborhood you have a bunch of awkward people around you and if you were honest about the things you did. Probably some people would think you’re pretty awkward too. So, I mean I know for me I just most people don’t sit and read and write page after page after page of notes, not how people normally operate. So, okay well when was intimacy. For the first time, the big deal in your life. Not frame first. First. I guess I have to that I could map as very much like where it’s like Ryan remember my consciousness turning on was this event. So I have to do a little bit of mapping. I was adopted by my biological grandparents. So I was living in my grandma and grandmother’s house, I’ve referred to as my mom and dad. My big sister is my birth mother. That’s very confusing for people, but hey, lots of people have been adopted by their grandparents. I’m glad I was because of things. So I’m very confused my dad, in general, is not a very intimate person he’s a professor, so he gets in front of lecture. And that’s what he does like six to eight hours a day is huge classroom of people. But he’s very good at one on once, and we had a knock at the door and I had to be under five years old, I know I was old enough to get the door so I was probably four ish four to five years old. And there’s a very stern knock on the door, not like a neighborhood knock not one of my friends knocks, I really don’t don’t don’t. I go open the front door, and there’s a police officer there, and I’m just like, oh hey, like I have no fear of cops nothing. Hey, what’s going on. Yes. Hello. Hey kid. I was like, I like your mom and dad’s cars home. It’s a Buick, and I was like, I like stop and thought for a second I’m like, I think it’s in the garage is what I was thinking and then I just feel my dad’s hand go on my head, which is a very normal thing scene, where men will kind of pat kids heads. My dad had never patted my head before. That’s just not his site we wrestle, we hike. We do all these things we got fish, we do all these things but I’ve never felt my dad like pat my head. But it looked normal like looking back. Look very normal to the cop you know it’s just a dad putting his kids had no big deal, and it just turned me off my dad spoke. But I remember my dad lied to the cop. And I said, Nope, cars, cars not home, been missing for a week, and I, my daughter’s boyfriend stole it. You think, and I looked at my dad and I’m like, my dad just lied to a cop like what is going on. Firstly my dad tells me to respect cops and stuff all this stuff, we still the troops to cops, I’ve never heard my dad say, he’s not a gangster he’s a professor. Here’s my dad is flat out openly lying to a cop. And I come to find out my dad was telling kind of a half truth, my sister’s boyfriend had stolen the car and done bad stuff with the car. And so the car was in the garage and my dad didn’t want the cop to know that. And it was me kind of like the first time realizing that my dad could lie or would lie. And I like a whole lot my whole cognition kind of turned on in that moment. And intimacy and then the other ones really strange but it happened within a week or two of that I can’t remember before or after because of being four years old. But downstairs, I have siblings that are 1115 and like 18 years older than me, so they were watching Commando with Arnold Schwarzenegger. You have you ever. It’s very like 90s action movie you know they do a thing and there’s like a punchline. Well, it’s like are rated, and I’m already cognition igniting very much. I walked down and there’s the scene at the end where the bad guy is fighting Arnold Schwarzenegger, or else we’re gonna kicks the bad guy, and the pipe hits them. Pipe pops through them and it’s like a broken steam pipe and Arnold Schwarzenegger says, let off some steam, and then walks away while the guy dies. I didn’t understand what stunt doubles were anything I thought I just watched someone die. Right. That’s why kids should not watch movies without parents. So I thought I just watched someone got get murdered. So I walked around like the wood pile on the side of my house, and I just looked at one of the logs that was like spiky just pointing right at me. And I thought if my brother ran over here right now, and like shoved me into that. I die. It was like the first time in my life where I realized like this is all real. I felt intimate I actually remember walking up and hugging our dog Nikki, and just like holding my dog. And I just like where my memories in there, and very strange that you can hold on to those very specific and it’s like I don’t remember the frame too much but it’s like genuinely thought I saw someone murdered. So I watched commando later I’m like, this is the movie that like, turned me on, like, made me aware of death. Great. And, yeah, the intimacy that that closest everybody. Everybody around me is just like performative that’s being harsh, but I grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona, so everybody really cared about how they looked and cared about. Image. Yeah, just the facade on the outside, and so now. And then literally, I never clicked. So, those are the two things and intimacy that like hit me when I was the first times because I remember thinking like, what, also what were those two guys doing that they would that they fight to the death, because I didn’t know as a movie, I was watching the end of command with no framing as a little little kid watching it. And like a really anyways. And like, talking while fighting and they acted like they really knew each other and cared about each other, but they’re trying to kill each other. And so like, anyways, those types of intimacy and that’s what I’ve seen more and more as I grew up, like I go to a church thing and it’s like, if they’re the same denomination they get even more upset at each other. It just makes no sense they’re like more close, and all these things, all these views, so that differences become even more substantial and more worth killing for. And that’s terrifying. Do you think that that word is of killing is because of closeness and lack of intimacy. Yeah, I mean, basically there’s, there’s some desync between the contact and the closeness. When those aren’t in alignment. repercussions are like apocalyptic, they can, they will end worlds. Right, not figuratively. Yeah, lives worlds, they’ll end the way things are, because we can we can do a chemistry analogy, right. So, if the centers are positively charged right like if there’s no bonds. The two things together like, either you get fishing or you get. Those are the two options is nothing else. And that’s exactly it. That’s a very good analogy. You know there’s a, those are the options. And you can change. You can even change it like maybe, maybe if there’s no bond in your own earth gravity under these conditions, you’re going to get this but if you’re up in space, and there’s no mass within great distances, maybe they will just diffuse and like, but that’s not a risk worth taking, because people are very, they have a facade of intimacy and I think that’s where most of this, I think that’s where when you guys are talking very often, Mark mentioned this word intimacy to me. When I think of it I think of this like, it’s like a performative contradiction they really are not trying to perform. And by doing that they are, it’s like the guy who wants to come across mainly. So he’s acting like he doesn’t care. And it just makes the person look extra weak I don’t know, there’s no other way around it, it’s, you can’t fake something like that you can’t fake intimacy. You can actually be intimate and you can say, me, me and this person disagree very severe. But I know that this greater thing we have a telos we have a purpose that’s greater than our little quabbles that are quabbles will somehow move towards and accelerating the contradictions all that crap that’s what I see people falling into they think I think that that we can gain that system now, I think that they’re so smart, we’re so intelligent, that I’ll just, I’ll put us against each other’s rivals, and we’ll like, figure out what will synthesize what will happen and sometimes there are perennial ways of seeing things that aren’t supposed to be solved, maybe, maybe the end of a conversation isn’t supposed to have a point to have an answer. Maybe it gives you an answer that gives you three more questions that’s how you know you have correctly moved down the path is the question has opened up the clearing that’s a quest that has given you more perspective. Whereas if your quest is lowered your perspective is probably a quest down instead of a quest up and now up and beyond. So, contact and closeness I hadn’t really mapped those but now that you’ve been kind of pulling those out I see that that definitely is a, because the contact is. There’s a genuine touch there’s a genuine movement between one with the next. When you’re smoothing with your partner you’re in contact. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you want to know more see is exactly. So, the way I look at it, it’s like a, like a cable right like cables have have these small copper wires that they’re bound into a big right axle. So, and then, and then these big strands, I see those as, as a dimension of intimacy, right so you can have an intimate relationship with with someone in one area right so you have that real tight bond but if you make a presumption that that you exist in in an area where you where you don’t have those connections where you just have like two couple wires, because you mentioned it once, then, then you get that tension right so like I think there’s even levels of intimacy within a person to person relationship, because of what shared experience right like. I think that really hits it. What’s that, I’m not going to go political I just like to, I think it’s so interesting to notice that like certain international calls and certain things that had been monthly meetings that world leaders all had to attend. Those all got canceled during coven and escalations and all these weird tensions I’ve moved. I find it very difficult for a lot of my calls, I have to do a lot of zoom calls people across the state or across the country. And when I have the zoom call I’ve been in a zoom call with one of the like, literally every month for a year and a half. Right, her and I have spoke a lot at this point, wherein are the only ones that are like super consistent her and I both have a lot of kind of relevant duties to the meeting. We finally got a meeting person, and is shaking her hand, and then introducing her to my wife and we all sat down we like found a table where we can all meet. We’re at a conference thing we like founder open table we all sat down, we ate lunch together. And it’s like now I’ve gotten so much more done with that little kind of like, I had this closeness every, you know, I had a monthly meeting with her. That’s actually pretty, you know, most of my meetings are quarterly or more specific, but a monthly meeting means there’s a good active project every two weeks. And that builds up a consistency of like a drumbeat, but then there’s a whole new layer, and you’re asking them to pass the salt and all these really basic human things that that make humanity, real. I’ve watched a lot of polarization be happening right now in politics, and like my state happens to be just like a humdrum for that. And we had basically my wife and our guests of honor at the Lincoln Day luncheon for the Republicans, and then And then I’m registered independent so I’d like got up and let all of them know I can’t even vote in primaries so don’t try and sell me on anything because I can’t even participate in your system. And yet we felt close, like all the people there I started getting volunteers from both parties, all these things. They think they’re so at odds and opposed yet to me. If I could just get them to sit down and have dinner together which we’ve had I’ve had one of my senators and one of our congressmen. We actually all sat down there on two different sides of the aisle sat down, and then they got two bills put through within like weeks was unbelievable they were co written by the democrat senator and the republicans congressman. And they just went right through the quickest things Arizona has had to go through our house and forever. And why that happened was because they actually met like their teams met did all the paperwork and actually out that the leaders the actual people who get all the flack weren’t allowed to reach across the aisle. We need to find like it’s painful to watch this corner of the internet, where people are defending. Because it depends where you are here, but people are actually defending the Sam Harris comments, things like that, because it just shows a lack of intimacy if I if you flip it the other way you get this disgust look. And I go then what you know what is happening, and I it’s really scary to me to see that inverse logic and. But there’s a logic behind it that’s what’s like super scary to me you can rationalize like Mark and I can rationalize pretty much anything you give us doesn’t mean we agree with that eugenics rational pure evil. No way around it. You can’t, you cannot do that and it seems like everybody is convinced that eugenics is a good idea now. And they don’t want to say that but they’re all acting the rat. That’s what I see in the world now and it’s kind of very. It’s like they’re so disassociated with themselves that they don’t really care if there’s a preservation so long as things move forward. Well, I want things to move forward but I also don’t want to be part of it like I don’t want to not exist just to allow something else. It’s a very strange perversion it’s like self sacrifice is a wonderful good it’s a great virtue. And then, when you push that virtue all the way to the highest. Our culture is now making a self sacrifice for things that we don’t even care about that aren’t our goal. So, I’m still thinking about this meeting that you’re talking about. What, what I heard when you were speaking is that there was this, this focus on on the disagreement, and somehow magically that focus from the disagreement turned to the focus on the communion. Instead, as a consequence of breaking bread. Yeah, the meeting yes. Yeah, like the Republican congressman, and the democratic senator have no issues now where I work with their staff and their staff are like good with each other, they don’t care what part of the aisle they’re on. We all see each other it’s like oh this is a good thing for America I’m glad I’m in a community that’s doing this thing. It’s not like they’re doing this, like they’re working on a thing was a was for our water. So my county basically is the only county in Arizona, and has our own water supply. Everybody else has to like, be part of the big chain they’re all taking from the same big well which means they have to buy in and do all these extra steps. Even though, when we were there and everything was so good. I have yet to find one paper article anything that makes it seem like what happened was good. Both sides lost face for participating and prioritizing America and prioritizing their community and prioritizing what they’ve figured is good. And it’s I hope it’s going to pay off in the long run. But that’s super heartbreaking for me to see people doing the right thing. And yet the perception. It’s like almost impossible to frame the perception in a way to people who have any vested interest if you’re a rebel publican or a democrat. That’s bad. And it’s like how could that be bad. It got through the houses in seven days. It must be good. Everybody agreed. So the whole point, the point of a democracy is, you know, a democracy is failing if you’re having to go to votes. Why? When a democracy was to talk it out, everybody should more or less be able to move this thing forward because we all agree where it’s going. The death of democracy is the vote. That’s a quote from back in the 1700s or 1600s. Like, very strange to me that people don’t know that. They want to preserve the integrity of things that are antithetical to the actual spirit of what we’re trying to do. We don’t need to argue if we actually agree on where we’re headed. Then we just need to figure out how to head there. I can’t imagine that there’s a sense of feeling threatened. People are used to using the word culture war and that people are in a war mindset. And if you’re in a war mindset, you’re focused on what is there to lose as opposed to what is there to gain. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So you think the intimacy is allowing people to step out of the loss mindset? Okay, maybe you just kind of sparked something in me. I think perhaps the intimacy, when you’re having intimacy, must be nested or rooted in… Yeah, it’s kind of hard. I’m thinking of the Civil War. So I may need to speak a moment if I can even really land that thought. Because in the Civil War, for people who don’t know the basics, essentially, the Methodist Church said you can no longer be a member of the church and own a slave. That moved into the Republican Party. And when the Republican Party said you can no longer be a Republican Party member and own a slave, that’s when guns were being shot. And they said brother against brother. What they were talking about is genuinely churches riffing in half. And then genuinely brothers shooting each other. I think that intimacy is the reason that we had a Civil War. America Civil War is one of the most strange things in human history. How it unfolded and where it ended. Stonewall Jackson won every battle and lost the war. So it just teaches you so much. But that intimacy is probably the only reason that that war actually took place. Because how it rifted wasn’t these separate, separate people. It was the churches literally ripping in half. And then the party literally ripping in half and saying you cannot be a member if you do this. And so that intimacy is required. Can you make the connection to intimacy a bit more? Like what do you mean? Sure. I mean, there’s, I really wish I knew where this is from, but it’s just too old. There’s two kinds of people. There’s people who divide the world into different little categories. And then there are people who don’t. So some people just see everybody as people. And when the society falls to almost everybody seeing everybody in categories and not seeing people just as people, those two ways conflict. And I think that the intimacy is somehow, that’s what I’m trying to say. I think the intimacy needs to be nested in those two worldviews. Do you believe that people are intrinsically different more or intrinsically more and similar? More brethren? Are we brothers or not? That’s genuinely the idea. Are we all kin? Are we more alike or are we more different? And if you focus on what’s different, that intimacy will drive you apart. And if you focus on what’s, how we’re all somehow similar, that intimacy can drive you together. Because I see, I see the intimacy is fracturing because we had this stupid IDW going just fine for five seconds. And then their closeness, they all had dinner together. What good did that do? We have a picture of them all going to get dinner together and they’re still acting like little children. Well, intimacy not grounded in something deeper is really scary. And that’s what I was talking earlier about. So I think our language has that subject object, inner outer mapping, and that’s not always how it is. So the way that I can visualize that is you have dogma, which is like the markers on the boundary, right? That plot the land effect. And that’s the category, right? Like the markers define the space. And so if you can only work together, if your space is big enough, what’s it’s a mental plot or whatever, like where you have overlapping spheres, right? When the areas overlapping, you can work together, right? So if there’s people who have basically the biggest available category, right? Like made in the image of God, for example. And then you have a capacity to cooperate. And like this is where we need to be careful, right? Because made in the image of God doesn’t mean being friends, right? Like there’s still a distinction between being friends and being made in the image of God. But yeah, so having these categories and having these ways of relating that that allow for cooperation. And yeah, right? Like if everybody’s huddled in their sphere, that’s not connecting to the other sphere or something, right? Then you get this utilitarian relationships, right? Because like the only way that I can interact with you is by what you can give to me. Transaction. Yep. Yeah, and yeah, I think, I think someone who can see everyone in one category. And if you can take that step, you may be able to see the world as if what we live in a time of plenty, even when we don’t. Even if you’re in a famine, you can still celebrate and live as if it’s a feast and give and be, and be bountiful with what you do have, regardless of what you have, you have enough. And if you really know that you don’t covet what you have and worry about it. So like it’s sermon on the mount really basic. Just sermon on mount stuff, but like that I genuinely think is the issue, because people don’t have a relationship with themselves enough to realize that they extend in the future. I think I’ve worked on, you know, when you ask how much has people changed in the last 10 years, they’ll say, Oh, I’ve changed tremendously. How much will you change in the next 10 years? Oh, not at all. I’m good. I’m right where I want to be. And it’s like, that’s just not how that’s how you know someone’s in that trap is they fall afraid of that. And that’s a very perennial problem. It’s not like our culture made it. I just think that people aren’t even giving, giving themselves a time to really have a relationship with themselves because it’s going to go forward. And so those sacrifices and those things, you need to be tethered to them. You have to have real skin in the game. But they also it’s weird. They also need to be abstract enough that they’re not here yet. You need to, you know, bring heaven on earth, more or less. In my church, they have, they’ve been really focusing on planting the seed at the end, right? Where you give money to the church and that you connect that to wanting change somewhere in your life, right? Like, so you’re making a commitment for a mental seed or a spiritual seed with the physical planting of the seed. And what is that doing? Right? Like it’s, it’s putting you in a relationship to your future. Right? Like, and it’s, it’s, it’s making a sacrifice, right? Like that is analogous to the sacrifice that you need to make in order to manifest the new thing in your life. And I think that’s the relationship that you were talking about, right? Like, people need to be aware and they need to participate in acting that out. And if you just get your taxes, right, like just detracted from whatever your income is, but you’re not making that sacrifice. You’re not willingly paying that right? Like it’s not a choice. It’s not a ritual that you participated. It’s just the thing that you have to do. And, and I think that’s so we’ve lost our, the meaning in the participation. So, so what we had this, this year, every year we have Prinsjesdag in the Netherlands, which is where the king reads the new policy from the government. And so that’s the connection between the royalty and politics, right? Like it’s, it’s manifested, but, but it’s, in some sense, it’s become this show, it’s become this dress, right? Well, in reality, it’s, it’s way more, right? Like, like the symbolism is an act of participation, but like people can’t treat it like that anymore. There’s an inability or lack of intimacy with the rich. Yeah, it’s like, we can read a story and see how these people in this story, how their kingdom is risen, you know, whatever fantasy worlds you want to go to. There’s like a whole layer of how things got to where they are. And we can map that on. But then when people, when we want to say, okay, there’s one in real life also, there’s actually real kings. All of your ancestors had to do a lot to get here. If you’ve made it to the year 2020, you are related to murderers, thieves, bad people. Like that’s, that’s all that we came from. Sorry, read all history books. And when you were just talking about the seed, I’ve had an awesome conversation recently, and we broke, we basically got into the two tellings of the, the parable of the seed, because one of them has the perspective of the seed, and the other one is the perspective of the sound of the ground, the dirt, because the seed that’s planted in the tilled dirt, the dirt that’s been broken. Maybe it was a path, maybe it was something, but tilled dirt is dirt that’s broken. You know, that’s the one that you can plant seed in and actually have any movement. So I guess that’s what I was trying to refer to earlier. It’s not broken, it’s moved. Yeah, it worked. Yeah, it broke well, yeah, it’s broken and then put back, exactly. I guess that’s my framing is broken, not worked. See, there you go. And yeah, working the land. I guess I also live in Arizona where it’s clay and granite. So it’s breaking the ground here. But one of my favorite terms I use this when I do like public presentations or ask for funds is a, it’s a Greek quote that’s like, society grows when old men plant trees, they will never sit in the shade of. And that’s pretty much what I wish most people would focus on is that type of thing. What a beautiful thing they could be doing. They can make an orchard, they can make, they could participate in this wonderful project and beauty is very difficult, but you can at least recognize. Maybe you’re not good at making something beautiful. But when you stumble upon something that you can help with, and you know it’s beautiful. That can let you know it’s probably has some truth and some goodness in it, it’s going to be very hard to. And I think that’s the loop that I’ve been seeing lately because there’s even beauty now in our culture and in our world currently has been It’s become so much that it’s become ugly, it’s become. Well, I can’t appreciate become slick. Right. It’s like, it’s like, it has no resistance. It’s, it’s, yep. Yes. When I, when I, when I look at it, it’s, it’s not insulting. Right. Like, it’s not confronting me with reality, but it’s that it’s, it’s letting me be without without strength that that disallows growth. Right. Like, yep. 100%. So, yeah, why I can’t go into the romantic. I’m not, I’m not going to go to. I think that’s where our, I think that that romantic impulse is the issue right now though, somehow, that a romantic. It was so we in drive or we think somehow there’s an idyllic. And if we could keep things slate, like, we all just want to stay babies I can’t understand why our culture all wants to stay children and stay babies. But I don’t I don’t think the romantics were like that. Right, like I, I, I, I think they were like, will to power. It’s like I can wheel away so so so I don’t I don’t I don’t think they were out of out of what’s pathos. It’s pathos over logos. That’s the romantic thing there, their passions completely go before and subvert logos and so That’s why I literally see it like a child whereas in a on so the young and let’s make the basic a on thing, when you go all the way through development, what you’re going to find at the end is your inner child. Right. So you want to have a relationship with your inner child, which allows you to have curiosity and wonder in the world. Well, not, but you’ll still not, you won’t be such a child to the point that you’ll be calling victim. Well, what’s, what’s the child like state, while the child is has no categories. Right, so the child has to devalue right. So it’s the state of growth. So, actually, now that I think a little. Even children have the level, they call that basic think that I think the nomenclature is basic level of categories, they should. So, the septer, but then in mind, for example, like one of my favorite Anderson Todd ideas is, he’s talking about that theory of mind thing. A child genuinely understands the mind of their parents, before they even are aware that they have a mind running. Like I can remember my dad patting my head, and that’s like one of my first. I can remember how that’s like not how my dad talks to me. And then what he said and like all these movements, and there’s definitely a disruption right now between those, those movements I think people are too intimate on a smooth level. And then they’re not intimate at all about the actual rough. Well, I think actually I can solve that because I. What, what does a child have well, you say child has categories, what has the capacity. Right, like there you go. Boom. Yes. Right. But capacity for. But, in a sense, everything is a monster for a child right like the thing that defies the category. Right. And then it has to interact with it, but it’s scary. Right. So that’s why a child goes back to mom, because it gets overwhelmed by the scariness right and then it’s slowly develops categories right and that’s how you. But then there might be categories that you don’t develop right like if you never get pat on the head and you never develop that insight right like maybe you never get it right like so maybe that category never comes into being in your mind and then like this is I think what happens with autism is that you develop a set of categories, and you start working from there and then you, you start developing strategies that are on our accommodation. And in Pujolian term it’s all accommodation no assimilation is supposed to be able to condense those things and then be able to move past them. And I really agree with that it’s like you’re stuck just. Yeah, but you’re building like a bridge right like instead of that you’re building a tower you’re building like this bridge from somewhere else to. Oh yikes. Okay yeah. Yeah. And because it’s a bridge is not grounded right it’s not gonna be so now you’re stuck in a procedural relationship instead of having the capacity to participate with what you’re doing. So, yeah, let’s get back to to young you since we’re kind of Derek is moved to. I think we got the categories kind of straight. So yeah like like, how does intimacy develop for you like are there significant milestones. Yeah, I mean, I got put into martial arts and I was very young, so watching my older siblings like fighting stuff and I was a little little kid. And my brother who’s 11 years older than me, he doesn’t really know how to like turn the other cheek. So, you would kind of like, if someone got rowdy my brother would always be the one who just like ended it. And so I didn’t want to be like my brother. And I wanted to be able to like keep my cool regardless of what’s happening my brother basically got kicked out for not being able to keep his cool. And I started training martial arts when I was like four or five. And then I stopped for a little while I went to a really, really intense traditional school. So the same 90 kids from kindergarten through eighth grade. And then most of us went on to college together still. And Greek and Latin roots, all that jazz, like a traditional schooling, very intense polo shirts had to have my shirt tucked in or I got a referral. No logos or anything. And that group of us for a while we were really in like every day we’re close and have contact like I’m in the same classes all day long with the same group of kids. And that’s the end of my schooling. That’s like what humans have usually done more or less. So I had a more literal traditional upbringing. And my third grade teacher was very she took it on herself to really make a pet project of me and two other kids, and that really ended up being like detrimental to my ability to associate with people. Really abused us and like mentally and physically and stuff and that that really started a spiral in my head of not knowing how to trust people. And the only other like authority figures my dad’s a professor. So off the bat I like teachers. And so here’s a teacher who’s abusing me so I’m going to rationalize that it’s okay. Okay, I’m in third grade. And then, so, although, what is there, do you know the reason why she did that why she picture. She really thought that the three of us were exceptional, that was the word. This was the 90s, and there was, I forget the name of it then the head start was coming out she was against head start. She said it was this bubble ball thing. And she was trying to give us gifted. We are the gifted students. So she had basically fought to get me in these two other kids into her class. And then she didn’t want us really got a recess or anything she just like over trained us, I stopped learning in third grade more or less because she like taught me taught me Latin and Greek, and like, forced me and these two other kids to really really like I couldn’t get a good grade. There was nothing I could do to get a good grade, even if I got 100% she would say, my spelling wasn’t clearing wasn’t clear enough and she’d give me a B plus. Literally I know she would. She made it an impossible standard she had this insight in her head where she had read their literature on gifted children and it’s like you need to keep them in the proximal zone of growth and all these things she wanted to help us and what she did was like, but she proceeded to realize completely destroyed me and these two other kids Sammy killed herself and she was like, before we were in middle school in middle school. And then she was like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like, I’m going to go to college and I’m like That’s not a good spell. Glad you guys don’t know what it is. But so yeah, that really spiraled us and then I just became the most like difficult when I was 11 my dad put me in another martial arts studio. And basically I just like lived there as much as I could, because they treated me like an adult. And yeah, the other one that really messed me up was right around then. I was in a Baptist church, my parents, you know, Southern Baptist from the Bible belt, just, you know, have no choice in the matter. And the church I happened to go to was the same one of this guy named Bobby Fisher, who ended up being like a crazy person who killed his family and stole money from things and was on the ice guys most wanted. And I had like been to that place. I knew Bobby Fisher Jr. is my mom painted his face at church, like a few weeks before. We look on TV and there’s a man hunt for this guy. And he used to like yell at my sister for smoking cigarettes and say, you better get used to that smoke sister because you’re going to be burning in hell, stuff like that and then he’s literally the guy who goes on the run, extorts a bunch of money from his business and his church. And he was like a prominent leader in the church that I grew up in. I saw him every Sunday. And it was very strange. Not being able to like I did not trust church people anymore. Duh. Like, just off the bat and that took me a long time to even kind of start approaching any of that, but someone like him, he was just like, upstanding all the nobody had ever said anything bad about Mr. Fisher, and I was a kid until he’s on the news. You know, FBI is most wanted. And so, very, that kind of like, huge swing. And then, I got my ass kicked once when I was 11, I like, saw my friends getting beat up by some older kid. So I run my bike over and just started mouthing off to the guy, and he like, picked me up and beat the crap out of me. And I was 11, he was like an adult, so he later just like picking me up and hitting me and throwing me and I just kept talking so my friends could run away. And those little moments like he could not stop me I broke his fingers and I was like, every time he got to me I was hurting him. But I’m a little kid and he couldn’t like figure out what to do, like, he’s just picking up and throwing me and that let me know that like I do I like training punch bags and stuff. It’s like it doesn’t really do any good when someone’s twice, twice your size and literally is angry, and just wants to hurt you. And so, I think that the intimacy really I mean, here’s a fact that most people probably don’t realize is like, a lot of murders are from domestic partners, like the first suspect we look at someone’s murdered is their partners and recent partners. And it’s like this intimacy leads into a level where you care so much that you will kill someone, you’ll kill them and we need to be careful because I see this as like a life or death. I was working at the martial arts studio at like age 14 I was not be 15 because I was the manager then so I was working at the front, not just in the back and a lady walked in and I could tell she just had like anger. I was pretty good at reading people and sort of talking to her about all the classes we offer at the studio we work at a bunch of different martial arts instructors that can, you know, give you a two free classes and any of the styles you like, but I train with all of them. If you talk to me I can kind of find where you want to go. And after talking to her for a little bit I realized she had been assaulted recently. So I kind of pressed and then found out she had been sexually assaulted by a co worker, and hadn’t told anyone. So she wanted to go learn martial arts to defend herself and then go hurt. And I’m like, hit the brakes, like, I can’t teach you martial arts, like, legally, because I’ll be like, hoping you commit murder, what we need to go do is stop him, because he’s probably doing it to other women. And when I said that to her I watched her like her anger flickered another direction. She realized she’s not going to be the only victim she probably wasn’t the only victim. And that like complete I can just remember that moment very distinctly of this woman’s anger shifting and realizing I can’t just go kill the guy. And I’m like yeah maybe maybe you just want to make all the women braver. And, yeah, so like that level of intimacy means she was raped by a co worker, and here she is wanting to learn martial arts so she can go kill it back. And like, that’s genuinely was her plan. And people don’t know that’s in them. You know, if people have never been hurt they don’t know just how much, how much damage you can go cause like real quick, especially if you’re nice and you have like a lot of opportunities in front of you. Yeah, you can just then you can get real food and get real rough. Right. So, I’m going back to to being informed by the other. Right. So, you can just imagine right like when you have interaction, like it’s shallow it’s like well, but then at a certain point right like you shape around the other person. Right. And, and especially if, if you, you don’t have the grounding and maybe that’s what you wanted to go into the intimacy has to be grounded, right, because if you don’t have a grounded this on your own. You’re grounded in the interest. Right. That’s bad. If the other person changes shape right like, and now it doesn’t fit anymore, like, what are your options right like your options are either self destruction or anger. Right, like, that person has to go back into the old shape. Yep. I mean, yeah, that’s, you said it pretty well that’s really where I’m seeing that issue is it’s not. If, if you don’t have that bigger container for your lingo, a container for to literally sit in right to be put within that boundary space. I am terrified of what intimacy is doing, because we’re, we’re in our frontal, we’re able to like be in other people’s fantasies now. If I go on someone’s well well catered social thing. I don’t see them I see the image of them that they wish they were or some weird layer there that’s not right. Everybody’s playing along. And everybody’s playing along. That’s where that conformity and then when you meet them in real life and it’s like oh they smell fun. Like my past, one of my favorite pastors. He has a smell that’s so particular. It’s like, I don’t know how to say this about Paul but I know he has the same smell. I know Paul does he has the same genetic background more or less but he also has the same presence, and I’ve been in the room with hundreds of pastors and hundreds of clergy members of different kinds. You can smell their breath and smell like their presence. And that’s a level of connection and closeness and intimacy that when I think about him I got a, I got one breath, where I could smell my pastor Carl, like it was very like on accident like just thinking about it made it so I actually smelled it. And there’s really big levels but he was able to be extremely intimate with me because thinking back the guy who kind of brought me to Christ I was coaching Special Olympics my, my nephew’s had a bunch of brain surgeries and cannot speak. So perfectly able to hear and stuff. But literally there’s been black and Decker drill bits through the part of his brain that’s speech center. So he just genuinely is trapped unable to speak. He’s on the special needs team and I just really enjoy coaching was track and field, and they were doing the relay thing and there was a bunch of extra people so I was just over talking to the parents. I had no idea the guy I’m talking to we’re talking about Bible stuff we get into the book of Joshua. And I was talking about how enough, I have an iron sword and you have a bronze sword it doesn’t matter if you’re better sword fighter than me. I win, because my sword breaks yours like you block in my sword makes a big chunk out of yours and mine looks fine. So, is really it’s we’re walking around with lightsabers cutting everybody in half, because it’s pretty amazing, and then he explained why he thinks that was and then let me know oh you should come to my, my church on Sunday I’m the pastor at Methodist Church, and I’m like, Oh, because I, I would have never gotten intimate about talking about the Bible or anything with this guy. If, if I knew he is a pastor but he actually snuck that up on me and then let me know that he’s a, you know, he does. He’s a preacher every day, like he’s, he’s basically the reason that I’m like saying is that man entering my life and could not have been a weirder set of circumstances but the container there was his daughters has special needs. And I’m coaching her. And I think that all these like strange interaction these strange movements that really allow people to see that their life couldn’t be made up can’t just be a solipsistic projection. There must be something I’m in contact with and I can change what’s out there. Not very much, maybe, but I can have some influence on the world out there. And that means for sure that other people in the world itself can have influence on me. So, yeah, because he really can, like, that conversation, the confidence he had. He wasn’t being rude to me, but he could tell I’m in my mid 20s, I’m a very nihilistic. Just, I’m a rough person, you can’t trigger warning me. And like, I just, I don’t have a level where I’m like, Oh, let’s not go there. And to have someone be able to really take me on like that, who’s happily raising a special needs daughter, and doing all these things I was like oh this could be real, maybe all that stuff that I mean I love to make fun of. It’s probably real, because this guy’s taking his whole life on it. And so that level of intimacy that one relationship definitely is the most recent one that kind of opened me up to see like, oh he thinks all that’s real, like, and he’s willing to like pull apart his day and, you know, go take a lunch for me. And these little movements and then it ended up, you know, like I did my, the ceremony for my wedding was that that pastor, so definitely a strange connection because I was really being like flippant. My reading of the book of Joshua was not orthodox, it was very flippant. And so, and he, instead of taking a defense like anybody I’d ever dealt with on that side. He like explained it to me and unfolded why it was that way, and that took a level of intimacy but also the container had to be there like so that special, special needs coach or whatever talking to a special needs parent is different than other places where you’d have a normal conversation. You’re kind of touching on it, but there, there is a sense where you could still have waved that off. Right. Oh yeah, like, I wanted to get it. Right. I wanted to show bad my girlfriend at the time my now wife, she was christened at that she was Christian and the Methodist, her family’s been Methodist for like multiple generations, she was christened in the same gown that her great grandfather was person out of Methodist Church. And then the pastor, Carl Peterson. When he came back to the church when he left the corporate world and decided to become a pastor. Now he’s a Reverend was because he was helping his orthodox priest friend, do a liturgy. He didn’t want it to be empty, he was kind of new. So there wasn’t like a big falling, but he didn’t want to perform a liturgy by himself. So he invited Carl to come and so he invited his Methodist friend who works in like government, military section of the world to sit down. The Holy Spirit hit Carl, he quit his job and everything and goes into being a pastor. And then, way too many little things that hit back for me where it’s like, he didn’t he didn’t convert me to Methodism at all, like he genuinely was more concerned about Christ, which opened me up to I became a member of the United Methodist Church, which was clown world hold other story, but it’s just strange. Like I know it had to be placed, but I totally had the option I wanted to say no, then my wife started going to church therapy Sunday, or my girlfriend at the time we weren’t married yet. And she’s like, that’s the church I used to go to and I was okay, they had a data program, blah, blah, blah. I like that place. My wife’s safe there. And my wife is never safe so Methodist Church became safe place for Emily, my girlfriend, so that became good and then all of a sudden everything like the container definitely unfolded around that. So is she the reason that you stuck it out. I mean, her and I basically did a really bad breakup right around then, and complicated she’s had a very difficult life, and we basically whenever one of us would not want to go the other would want to go. And then somehow just like forced each other, but not necessarily with everybody in the church is 16 up, and my wife and I are like 33 and 28. That’s like, this is kind of awkward. There are 25 to 20 at a timeframe for me. So it was like, literally I’m less than half the age of everybody in the congregation. My wife kind of remembers how it was 20 years ago, and they had a youth program but now there’s no kids. And so it’s like, we’re living in this double thing of what I’m living of where it could be. She’s living where it was. And neither of us are actually here right now looking around going, you know, in the Bible study they just told me that Isaiah has multiple authors. Why am I in a Bible study with someone who’s not a Christian doesn’t believe the Bible. Like Isaiah is clearly authored by one person written down by a bunch of people like the book of Isaiah explains that but here they are giving me atheist arguments for how the Bible is not really saying what it says. And I’m like, how is this a Bible study you guys are undoing the Bible, like, anyways, so that whole movement of the container shifting around me and that’s right when the culture war was picking up. I got wrapped into becoming a vice president for a nonprofit, and like all these weird weird movements, and I really like when I run a support group, for example, why I like fidelity for support groups, a doesn’t matter what type. When you’re choosing to go one of those support groups there’s guidelines and principles. And that that sets the container where you’re going to be here’s the guidelines. This is what we’re doing this is we’re going to structure it this way. Here’s the principles, we’re going to follow these rules. We’re not going to, we’re going to empathize with other people’s situation we’re not going to judge other people’s pain is less than our own. Here’s all these like basic things that when you read it, it gives you permission to go okay that’s the rule here. And then all of a sudden that container allows the movement because I run really structured support groups that keep fidelity and all of them feel so different, because depending on what topic is brought up, we had a guy bring up being overjoyed for example everybody was able to relate, because he’s overjoyed but he’s a manic depressive. So right now he’s really on and up. And he’s really scared because he knows what he’s going to be going down sir. That’s like, he felt safe to be able to explain that to a group of people who could explain it back to him and relate, but you need a space for that to be there container for it. So, I think part of the intimacy crisis would be literally using your guys’s lingo. The lack of a container, the lack of respecting the container. So, and for vacay lingo it’s set and setting. Everybody has set and setting, but we’re forgetting sacred. You need a sacred. So we have this, the set we have this container. I mean, they have a set, you have this thing we’re going to do to me, you have a setting in the container. And then we need to, and then the sacred is what we’re going to orient to exactly, that’s what we can tell us towards. And that’s where you know I don’t need to be a friend, we can at least be moving towards that moving towards how this can actually embedder us and enrich our lives. That can be the thing that we’re actually moving and that could be what’s sacred. And I really like the word fellowship, not only am I a token nerd. I just think that’s somehow hitting the correct word is seeking fellowship is much more important than most things you can only be friends with a few people, but you can be in fellowship with everyone around you. If you can properly. Well, can you do, because, because, like, well, even if even if that Yeah. And, and you, because you need to follow towards the same goal right so that’s that’s kind of where the constraint is and like where I think things like church are really important because that that is the container that allows the for the fellowship, right, like, and, and it’s also also couched in terms of family, not so much in terms of friendship, which is also interesting right, but Yeah, so I want to go back a little bit to this container right because, because, are you saying that the container. The container allow people a move set that that is maybe not natural to them, but give them a way to participate without having the intuitive capacity to for participation. There you go. Yeah, some people lack that intuition. There are people who genuinely lack the intuition, and the people who have it are the ones called to really set those parameters the dogma, and those need to be moving. But they, that’s what they are called to do. If you were, I mean, the scariest thing I think Jesus has said is the parable of the talents is some people are given one talent. And that’s all it’s expected in return of them. Some people are given three talents, and they’re expected to three extra in return but if you’re given a lot of talents. You’re not just expected to return you’re expected a full return on what you were given like that is terrifying if you really are hearing that that’s, that’s really scary. Fall on your knees. And ask for mercy. So, yeah, pray for mercy is. Yeah, I mean I myself I’ve been diagnosed, like, laid out, I get told them very lay on the cards on the table to per person. I definitely had a type B personality, and yet, I feel like God has found a way to genuinely grow me and construct me and allow me to be useful part of the body, without me not being like 20% of the population of the role model type, called the role model type. It’s like a basic 20% of people have a very standard. They’re just like a person, and that’s great, we need them there’s nothing wrong, but it’s just like, there are exceptions there’s always these weird movements. And when you look at the history of the church you have the most extreme dichotomies possible someone like Peter and someone like Paul. And yet, as teachers in the world, Roman citizen, lowly fishermen as a boat, like, and yet here they are the, the two pillars, and so I think that we need to find ways to really respect the sacredness of where we’re going to where we’re going. And so, have, have faith that this this place that we’re part of this containing that we are sharing has more than what we could possibly calculate, we can’t possibly calculate it all. If we, if we, if you go out on a limb and you just pretend and not just pretend but really believe that you live in a time of plenty and you live in a time of good. And you can bring that forth. And you can be living in a very good time and be pessimistic and bring bad times to you, and vice versa. So, I think that that that inner world the romantic impulse has something good to it where it’s. If you do, there’s a there’s a smidge in there right like that romantic impulse if you do want to improve the world there is something you could do to improve it. That’s where they will free will is real right and the question is well, how does it work. How much of it do you have. Because you don’t want too much I mean, I really like that I, I really liked however they put it recently with something with like you. I think I have free will so long as it’s in it’s allowing me to attune to these things that I consider greater than me, is if I have free will at the cost of all others, and I don’t want that. And that’s, that’s why I’m kind of grateful that I die is because I’m pretty convinced I can’t get good enough. I just want to keep getting better. That’s my goal is to improve and get better. But I think that’s why Christ said only God is good is more or less. We’re called to be getting better called to be working towards better than perfection. But it’s kind of like earlier, God isn’t an ultimate being not isn’t being good. But God is the only thing that is good. It’s a very strange. It’s like, it’s like the, we’re not going to go into the word self, but there’s these weird things if a tornado is self organizing, but lacks a self. Right. There’s these weird ways that I think we’re getting mixed up we think that the containers doing the magic and we forget that our relationship with it is, or sometimes we think that it’s just a relationship with the telos that they’re with the, with the thing we want the sacred. That’s doing all the magic and I think it’s actually all these things multifaceted in every time we train reify them. We’re somehow missing these other important aspects because how are we going to make a container online, except for people who want to show up, you can’t force them to sit and watch these videos where to random guys talk for an hour and a half right. Yeah, but, but we can somehow we are participating in doing something here where little nuggets get transformed in something that happened years ago are actually being brought forth, and maybe they’re only going to be brought forth because of this strange conversation now. And someone else may do the actual lay up. But maybe you and I need to get the ball across the court. So, well, okay so I’m going to do it out a little bit again. So, yeah, like, like, I, I don’t like the self and self organizing for tornado because like, like, I somehow think that’s a wrong word because now the to know that NATO has an identity or whatever right like, but, but I think what is special about humans is, is that they have the capacity to adjust what they identify of a cell right so I can identify with what I see, but I can identify with my body. I can identify with the combination of what I see with my body, but I can also identify with you. You, right, and now we’re like, or better said I can identify with my communion with you. Right. And, and so, having having that capacity to go up and down in in in the identification but, but I can only identify with you. If I know that we’re a body. Right, so we can only be a body if, if we’re attuned to the same hat and looking in the same direction. Right, and that doesn’t mean that we individually look at the direction but but our communion is producing the same direction as we want to go. And so, it’s. Yeah, to bring that back to intimacy. Right, like, I think, I think this capacity to to who am I right and then you can you can bring back well Christianity is, is this bringing together of all these people in the past, in some sense right because, because they all identified in in the same way, more or less, hopefully, but ideal, let’s just talk. So, yeah, there is there is something powerful there and and there’s a participation in that and I think I think when when you’re talking about feeling that you’re affluent right like it’s, it’s talking about, well, what is your capacity to identify right so you can either identify with the threat, the lack of afterwards right or you can say no like there’s a higher thing. And, and I get my identity through that thing and I don’t let the immediacy of of my flash inform the way that I think and the way that I react. I think I wanted to make a connection but I lost. Because what you were discussing that to me is, so I run support groups, and the two my two favorite support groups around are from NAMI, which is national anti mental illness. So one is called family to family, and one is called peer to peer. Family to family is someone in your family, very loose definition to someone close to you has mental illness, and you’re at this support group so that you can have a better relationship with that person who has a mental illness. That’s a family to family. There’s also peer to peer, which is people suffering from mental illness going to a support group. So, how can I be less disruptive to my loved ones, how can I have a better relationship with myself. That’s how I frame it to the group, because we go through this cycle thing and I, when I’m in the peer to peer the family to family I always every single time we’re doing the principles and check in that which one we’re in, because people will very often in the family fall in and start talking about themselves, or in the peer one start talking about how they’re, you know, whoever is driving them nuts, but in the peer to peer class we’re there to talk about our relationship with ourselves and how we are going to be interacting. And I really think that it’s an amazing feature of when when when we’re talking all the time, you were just, it’s amazing. So, I, the idea of the I, capital I, I agree with you that it, it has the ability to relate at different levels or different movements and as that’s what makes it what it is. That’s why it can’t define itself. That’s why I can’t look back on itself. It has no ability. The moment it’s defining what it’s part of, that’s the me or the myself. That’s no longer the I. And so, that movement is I think where we’re supposed to somehow be because there’s nothing more familiar to you than that. Right. You are that I. That’s the most familiar thing, but when you go to try and express it in any way. There is nothing more distinct and foreign, because it’s completely, it has that dichotomy in it and I find that’s the, the beautiful root of where most of these relationships need to nest from. So when Sally and I have talked about like from the void and stuff, like, well, it’s that void of something that I could be that intimate with. There’s nothing more intimate of a relationship that I could have than the relationship I have with myself, with me. Yet, I can’t even put like a word to it without just instantly being able to just, you know, what happened to you just now. It’s like, whoop, thoughts don’t allow you to move. So, I just, that’s the most fascinating thing. That’s why when Peterson said, you know, people who can talk about obvious things, you know, that’s a talent. Yes. Being able to talk about something that is obvious is difficult. It’s really difficult to say obvious things because they’re, you take them for granted. You can’t, it’s hard to recognize them. Well, yeah, but I’m no longer thinking about things. I’m thinking about processes, right? Things that are evolving. Well, I mean, a definition of a thing is a process unfolding through time. So there’s, there’s smart ass. Well, that’s what a smart ass like me can do because that’s how I will define a thing is. So God is another thing because he’s not just a process unfolding through time. He is the ground of all processes unfolding. See, like rhetoric and stuff is slippery. It’s brutal. Look, look it up. Well, that’s that’s not a definition that Google is giving me. But, okay. But yeah, like, so, so when you’re talking about the unfolding, there’s a, there’s an element that, that the thing that unfolds doesn’t have an identity anymore. Right? Like you can’t, you can’t squeeze it into something flat. Right. So now you need to talk about like an asset, right? Because, because we talked about this gravitational pull earlier, right? Like, like, it’s still forming around something, right? But it’s, it’s not graspable what it’s forming around. And even if you can grasp what is forming around, then it’s not that because it’s around. Yeah, it’s the word coming to mind is substantial, you know, it’s something is substantial if you can’t help but it’s, it’s there. It’s important. But it’s also. So like in Christian lingo, it’s like they so many fights about where the transubstantiation happens. And what they should disagree with is that it happens, that the bread and wine become the body and blood. But if you get really hung up on when that happens, is it when he says this word? Is it when we all close our eyes and say amen? Is it when like, if that’s what you hang up, then you’re never going to find it. You’ll actually not be able to see the moment of it becoming the blood and body. Because you’re actually looking for that magic crux. Whereas, if you know that that’s going to if you know that that unfolding is going to happen. It’s just such a difficult change of perspective, like, you either you, you either know something is happening or not. Sometimes it’s intimate. Maybe it’s like in some sense, you’re talking about the object, right? Like, like, I’m trying to identify the characteristic of the object, but like, there, it’s the trap, not in the object, but in your relationship to the object, you can never find it in. Yeah, never. Yep. And that’s the lens that I see because if if the mapping of the folk psychology that most people run is, is something like there’s an inner world that I have access to and then there’s the outer world. My inner world is subjective. The outer world is objective. And if that’s the mapping you’re running, then when we’re trying to agree on something in the in the objective outside world changing that you and I can both subjectively agree that that’s happening, then you’ll never be able to agree on when and where and how and why or you’ll fall into the weeds. You just need to both acknowledge. And with that, with that acknowledgement, then you can go. But I see us, I see our whole culture is instead of acknowledging that movement and being able to move towards what we’re agreeing on. We’re fighting in the weeds about where this movement or the little tiny detail. Well, but maybe it’s a change in our belief. Right. And a change in our belief allows us to act in faith. Right. Like the change in our belief is necessary, right. So the ritual is necessary to manifest the new belief right. Oh, like this is just wine and now it’s not. It’s like, so, so, there’s. And then, well, what are we talking about at that point, right. Like, no, we’re. Well, we’re talking about our interface. Any argument that people are worth losing a friendship over. That’s an intimate argument right. Any, anything that can bring something to a head where a decision has to be made. I would think that’s an intimacy crisis. When whenever I’ve heard you guys frame that I’ve always thought that an intimacy crisis is basically, I’m going nuclear. I’m going to call back something else for can Chad to that Jim Brewer guy on Glenn Beck. He’s talking about his wife and him and his wife like goes to Christ and all this stuff and she’s doing great for a few weeks and then she has a day where she’s just awful. And then she’s like, back to her old self being terrible. And he makes the decision in his head. If she comes out of that door and wants like to argue with me. I’m going nuclear. This is the end. I’m not going to be like I’m not letting her do anything. So Jim makes that decision in his head. She opens that door, and it’s still angry and wants to blame me for everything and all this. We’re going through with the divorce. I’m doing this is it. She opens the door, and she’s real solemn and says like I’m sorry, I’m gonna have moments like this. Please love me please forgive me for what I did. I don’t just I just need some time. And then he’s sitting there like, under his breath he says thank you Jesus and he’s like, I always thought that that was like a derogatory term. Well, that’s what I’m starting to see is that intimacy crisis is that when you have that moment in your head where this conversation you’re gonna, you’re no longer like my brother and I are not a great terms right now. Politics, yada yada. And that’s so annoying to me, but it happened because like, I threw it down our brother who overdosed. What my brother was saying. If I took him seriously that would mean he didn’t care that our brother overdosed. He didn’t he didn’t care. So I laid that on. And I said, No, you that’s what you’re saying is full of shit right how I know you’re full of shit is because our brother died under those circumstances, and I’ve seen how you acted. I know you care. So you can tell me you can rationalize you don’t care about those pieces of shit junkies. But I know you do, because they’re people. And that in that crisis my brother and I still have not been on very good terms like will kind of like show up for family stuff. But like, I laid that on my brother, literally the death of our other brother and laid down on him and was like, how dare you say you don’t have that that didn’t affect you and that that didn’t change who you are. I remember you before and after definitely changed my brother. So, those moments of intimacy are those things that like you cannot come back from most conversations kind of go away. That intimacy requires all these things to get there. Right. You can’t just like have an intimate, intense conversation. It would mean you have to have a lot of history and all these things. And I think what we need to do is master having those really intimate, difficult, where everything is on the line, and it’s actually on the line, it’s not a performative move it’s not a gesture it’s like, no, if this goes wrong we could actually no longer be friends. I’m going to trust you and I’m going to actually go there. And it’s not even just be friends but we’ll no longer even be able to be amicable. And that’s, that’s a risk. And then, our culture needs to find a way for forgiveness because people who have already crossed that there needs to be a way for repentance. It shouldn’t be super easy can’t just do it forever. But I see we’ve backed ourselves in the corners where we want to have a logical response for everything, and that’s not humans are we can have a fully pathos world, but we can’t have I think that that point that you’re talking about also exists in the opposite direction. And we’re also not recognizing that right like so it, because, and I know that, no, that’s surrender that’s not sacrifice that’s around. Right. So when you surrender, you give over the authority, right. To to the other person, right, and now you’re submitting right so you’re you’re conforming to their will. And, and that can be something beautiful, right, because if they love you, right, like they will manifest the good in it. Right. So that that is, that is an opportunity for transformation, right and that’s true vulnerability in relation to the intents. But I think we do that right we simulate that process without having the entities. So, like, I think, like, because, why is an idol called an idol. Right. So, like, in a soul, some sense, because who was saying that was pressure saying it I don’t know, like someone was saying, Well, I listened to these people. And I feel like they’re my friends on a luxury was saying that, like, they’re my friends. And I’m like, No, they’re not, they’re not your friends, they don’t know you. Like, like, why would you consider someone that has no interaction with you, your friend. Right. That reminds me of the definition of reader. Someone who’s a reader is someone who’s most of all the almost all their friends are dead. Right, all their best friends are dead. That’s a good reader. And, now I’m really grasping what you’re on about very often, I think, first time I actually can more precisely see Because we were talking about the start right where we were effectively saying when you have closeness without connectedness. Right. That’s it. That a real contact. Right, like there’s no real close but you’re not actually that you’re conforming something else, you’re conforming to a spirit that has left. It’s not a participatory spirit. It’s not spirit. It’s not a facade. It’s just the smooth outer shell is all you’re conforming to and it’s not the actual inner workings and the manifestations of those processes inside the real thing. Now, all of a sudden I’m able to, I think I can start to finally steel man. Some of our past conversations and see where what you are pushing towards now I now I can see that easier, because I’m not able to articulate it quite this moment, but it’s something like. Wow, that’s really hard for me now. You’re like a child. Well, it’s just interesting. There’s lots of ways to go from where I’m kind of sitting right now, because Okay, so I’m going to go back to something I mentioned earlier, Mr Rogers he’s had a commencement speech for a bunch of kids graduating college. Firstly, they invite him to be the speaker. That’s already, you know, pretty powerful thing, you know he did a lot of good, but That moment stuck. Like, it’s a, he did that for real he did that little trick of his more than once where you sit in silence and think about the thing. But that one in particular it says if everything was able to really go whereas if I really frame it well I’ve been able to make a room full of people tear up, just considering that exercise, not even fully doing it, you know, because I don’t know I’m not Mr Rogers, I can’t. Do that. They’re not in the graduation and they’re not at their graduation ceremony about to throw their hat. They’re not at all these that there’s so much there. But if I tell the story of hey, at a graduation ceremony, Mr Rogers did, and all these things come together and allows them to kind of see that and I’ve had really good conversations because of those moments of intimacy. So I think maybe what I want to bring forth is in our part of this community, if we could find these moments where tensions rise and the intimacy is legitimate and things are actually at state there’s things on the line for real. Those are the moments that are going to truly show and help people participate and take things into their real life, because I mean, yeah, hearing Pasio steel man Foucault, that’s pretty shocking. That’s, that’s a pretty, you know, that’s, that takes a lot of courage for someone in his position to make one step towards steel manning Foucault, because, obviously, and, but yet, where they were who they were talking to where that conversation was. I think that we need to be able to write those difficult things out. What do you what do you do with something that difficult Peterson and them are adults is all evil, just a parasite on the good, or does evil have its own manifest. There are two ways of seeing the world that are very different. What’s weird is for Vicky’s usually not on the side of pageant but your pageant for baking on one side and Peterson’s on the other. And it’s weird because I’ve argued about the agency of demons and stuff for you guys. And it’s like, how am I now on the other side of the argument, no matter where I land there’s when you reframe the argument all of a sudden, you’d think I’d be over here and it’s actually because of where I’m on the other side of the argument. And so, I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that’s where I think that is, and that’s going to be just unacceptable to you because you’ve already completed what you want, you know it’s like, it’s nice to be at that like I got where I want to be. It sucks to realize that like, it’s just going to keep. But it doesn’t have to be complete right like it can just be well, like here is my vulnerability. And now we have this flat layer here. And I can never make a dent in this right. And as long as you’re not making a dent in this we’re okay. And then we’re okay. Everything is going to pop up. So, something like the sky is falling so when the person said you know chicken little says the sky is falling. Is it because that little, there’s been a dent in there, no one else can see it. If you’re the only person who can see that shift coming like Paso talking about for, you know, he said a floods coming all these weird symbolism happens types moments where it’s like, I think these people who have these intuitions we need to be pretty I think we need to be pretty careful and let people know what our intuitions are. Even if it’s not gonna be helpful for you maybe it’s helpful for the person listening or someone else who’s there. Yeah, it’s interesting right because I would say the ground is shaking. There you go. Right there. But that’s dependent. Right. So, if you, if you’re standing on solid ground, it’s the sky that’s falling. Right. If you’re not standing on solid ground, the ground is shaking. And therefore is dependent upon upon your dependence. Right. So if it’s like existential. Yeah, and I think this is the problem right like like we’ve, we’ve talked about this stuff a lot like, like, for people are so fixated on their worldview right like this so dependent in their life upon the world view. You need it but they’re, they’re fixed on it though they don’t want it to grow. They like it, having that smooth right shell on top. Right, right. Exactly. Right. So you have the smoothness and then, and then there’s this bomb right and then, well, it’s like, well, if we, if we put a tree in front of it, we don’t have to look at it. And then at a certain point you do something right and then you have this tectonic shift right like like you see the plates and it’s like that’s really everywhere. Yeah. No, I think that that perspective is the thing now because, yeah, if you’re on solid ground. Then when things are falling apart, it has to be the sky is falling. That makes a lot of sense to me. And then, you know, the other way because that’s me that’s speaking very metaphorical so if you’re not in the like emergence emanation you probably have no idea what’s being talked about but that’s really correct for a viewing because if you’re comfortable going back and forth between, then you can recognize those is a earthquake. And then the sky is falling right now, like, you guys are arguing about which one, maybe it’s both, or maybe you guys are in a really rock, you know, where you’re at is really rocky and these are stable, where you’re at is shaking so the, the parallax makes it seem like everything is in chaos. And then the mountain metaphor. Yeah, I wanted to put a mountain metaphor in but one of metaphors don’t really work but it’s well like maybe you can have stand so far away right because mountains is somehow lifting you up right where, where you can hold both perspectives right you can see the sky and the ground, but but you’re not participating right like you’re too far away. And then there’s actually strange analysis Do you ever see the chariot of the gods, like old hippie movie. It’s like a most really really famous thing about like aliens being on earth, yada yada. They go down to Central America near I think Chile or whatever on the Pacific coast of South America. And there’s huge, like, hundreds of feet long sometimes mile long rows of stones and stuff. And when you’re in a helicopter you look at them there like pictures. When you’re on the ground on the field like where they’re laying. It’s just walls, like there’s no way you can see what it is in the movie, they make it seem like, how could these people have figured out what’s happening. And then you look at the reality, they’re right by the coast. And if you go inland more there’s a really high mountain, like the Andes where cocaine is from like really really high mountains, and the people had to coordinate their efforts that And then you go on top of a mountain and lay out what it would look like and then go down on the ground and lay it out, there would be such a disconnect between. Even now when they’re trying to describe it they show people these pictures, and they make it look like a field like a big open plane next to the ocean. And then you look at the mountains right next to it, that would give you the perspective. If you’re on the mountain looking down on these things, you see this huge display of art, and you’re walking in the field it’s just a, you know, rows of rows of bricks. And you really think that that juxtaposition is required, but sometimes people are stuck, they think that the correct place to be would then be on top of the mountain. Well you don’t live on top of the mountain, you live in the field, sowing and living with your family and doing stuff like it’s important to go to the mountain, get that perspective and maybe remember it. But that’s not where you live. It’s sacred. It’s sacred, exactly. You can’t do it all day long man, like you have very few people are called to live on top of the mountain. It’s like a one in a generation or something. So, yeah, and maybe you don’t want to live on the mountain. No, altitude sickness is no fun. If you’re on the mountain you can participate with the people. You can’t do anything. Exactly, nothing. And, and that’s exactly what I’m thinking that it’s like people now really want to be that smart guy who coordinates the step from the top of the mountain, without realizing that that person also went down and picked up rocks, and did the, you know, like, well yeah. I wish people would just work more like I, I get like props for doing like the work I do and I’m like, I clean toilets and stuff all day, like, literally I clean showers five days a week. It’s, and you get props for stuff that people don’t actually notice this, the sludge cleaning out the pipes that the actual work that it takes to do something is not glorious, because you wouldn’t want to do that in the most sacred high of high holy of holies. There is another, I have to go down here to do this. I think that’s definitely a thing, maybe we need to find a way to using this mountain metaphor looking down on stuff. We need to find a play away to get people to see that intimacy, when you’re way up on top of a mountain with a group of people it’s quite intimate that the people who can make it there, not everybody can, you know, a lot of people want to everybody wants to do that not many people have the ability or the commitment to really achieve it. So when you’re there around those people who have that tenacity to get where you’ve gotten. There needs to be in that head on collision of differences to have some mercy, as you mentioned earlier, like, mercy is going to be key there, because Yeah, I’ve always I’ve always wondered like in the holy of holies, the Bible you only get basically the high priest gets to roll lots the high priest, and one day of the year, they go into the holy of holies. It’s one person, one day a year for like a really specific time. And some sounds like what we have on Pinterest are right, like, one time the king. Right. No, that’s right though because you said he does the purpose. So he does that to the government, or to the government is preparing effectively the sacred documents that that are going to be an act throughout the year, he does the enacting by reading them and declaring right he’s bringing them into being because they’re secret right like He’s going to seal before he reaches them. So they always get leaked, but whatever right like, no, but that’s so correct with opening the seal. I mean, people don’t, they think apocalypse literature bad, bad apocalypse but it’s like, no, that’s how the new world starts. There would be a seal open there would be a temper blasted. I bet they’ve asked them, sort of a trumpet or something somewhere during the coordination. That’s what new. Right. Yeah. Like, my wife and I were watching this. My wife and I were watching the, the, the funeral procession of the queen. And my niece is there she’s like three almost four coming on for soon. And I just didn’t understand because everybody’s walking perfectly in sync, and I’ve been to Scotland and England and stuff and got to go to a couple places and see that’s what they do like when the guys switch switch a Buckingham Palace or whatever, when the switch. They’re in meter, the whole time. If they have that suit on there in meter. So you’re looking at this procession and we’re going into the gate so it’s, it’s leaving the public. The last, the last viewing of the public as the Queen’s going into the gate. There’s like a huge procession of all these people on both sides. Most of them military attire with big hat, but there’s also civilians and like family members and Dukes and stuff. And even the women who are dressed in like dainty old clothes are perfectly in sync with the step, everyone on the procession and the Queen’s funeral and stuff. And my wife just couldn’t understand it. She just was like, she thought I was making fun of her or them and got mad at. She didn’t understand when I was like, they do this every day. Like this. If you, if you work at the Buckingham Palace or you work at one of these huge famous things, this institution isn’t fake to them. They really do it. They’ve walked in step, every day. Well here’s the day that they’re burying their queen. It’s a really important time for them. And you can just watch like, you could either see him like robots, or you could see that they’re really in communion and they’re taking this serious. Those are the two ways to see it. My wife thought I was making fun of them and I’m like, no, they’re. They really care. They want to show full respect to their queen, the purple pillow with her scepter and their crown. Like, they take that real serious, even if they disagreed with her. It doesn’t matter. That has nothing to do with what they’re doing right now. And it’s weird to see that juxtaposition because I think a lot of people in our nowadays world. I mean, even if people live where you are, how many of them understand the basics of like what you were just saying like the procedure and why they would do that. It’s important it should be taught in school, it should be real. Well, I like, I actually read an article about how the language that was being used wasn’t being able to be understood by like 50% of the population. Right. Oh, so it’s so antiquated it hasn’t even kept as an. Do we need to notch up a little bit but not too much or what. Well, so there were arguments right like, so there was two positions right like one is very, you can just dumb it down. But the other position was like people don’t need to understand. I was like, yeah. Wow, see. So that’s like, that’s literally. That’s Vatican to that’s the argument Vatican to put in politics. Should we make the mass, the traditional mass, or should we make the mass that everybody understands it. Boom. That’s the same argument, but put into a political. Well, it’s important to realize right like it’s going to be on the news, right, but on the news is going to be summarized, it’s going to be reinterpreted, it’s going to be put in in diagrams and graphs and all that stuff. Right. So, like, like I kind of agree, right, like I don’t, I don’t think you need to understand. Like, and, and, and it’s not that that when you listen to the thing you don’t understand you can’t participate right like it’s not that all the words are like completely foreign, it’s just like, it’s, it’s maybe outside of your zone of flexible development. Yeah, way above. But in some sense like that’s important to know that there’s the higher. Right. I think the higher is benevolent to work. Yep. But then that’s a great thing. It’s not that it’s higher and you don’t have access to it. You’re welcome to learn this we want you to know. I think you just said that with more benevolent there. It’s like, here’s the thing that’s above you that’s good. But it’s going to take care of you even if you don’t fully participate, but the more you participate in it, the more good it will be. That’s kind of how I see a healthy. Any government of any level. Yeah, that’s essentially a monopoly on violence. That’s my favorite definition for government. And if you’re going to have monopoly on violence, have to have that grounding in. Yeah, like I’m doing this. But I like to reframe it as the embodiment of the ideal, which is like, really heresy to say that. Yeah, that’s like, the max. That’s what what government should be right like you should. Oh yeah. And, and having the example. The thing that lifts everybody up. Right. Yeah. That’s that’s Higalian to the max. I know not on purpose and just saying like, his, his, his instantiation of the ideal was the state. I’m just saying it’s just, but I can see what I’m saying. I agree, but I’m just saying it’s very interesting to see how that my brain can’t help but map on that way of ratcheting. Yeah, but that’s why you have to go when you’re a materialist. Right. So, when, when we were talking earlier about making communism of religion, right, like yes communism is a materialist. Yes. Yep. A religion that denies spiritual. Yep. Right. And, and so yeah, or at least it’s a mix. Right. Yes. And yeah, that that’s really dangerous, right, because if when we were talking about categories, right, like, and how do you what identity do you take. If you don’t have the spiritual to put the category and you have to reduce the category to the material. Right. And that’s the big thing of the 20th century. That’s a very big one. Well it’s, it has consequences that are too dire to ignore. That’s kind of what I see. I see people are getting into relationships with themselves that are transactional. And that’s if you’re even in that relationship to yourself. Then, how can you trust your faith in any other relationship with other people or anything else. So, like the diet fads or anything you know I’m trying to people, try transacting their wants and desires, and doing that calculation back on themselves, and not realizing how equal that is. It doesn’t have, doesn’t have spirit, that’s completely materialist way of doing this self. Right. It also doesn’t have intimacy. No. Oh no, there’s a lack of intimacy with the cell. Yeah, there’s a total. If you don’t know. What did I say there’s nothing more familiar to you than who you are. But there’s also nothing more mysterious and on, like, just an affable. No, no, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t think that matters. I think, I think the intimacy, right. Is, is being in relations. Right. So what’s the transaction. Transaction is, is not a relationship right like it’s, it’s a sequential icing of interaction. Yeah. So, so, so, getting back to a relationship to yourself, right, like that requires you to have a different orientation mechanism. Right. And what’s that orientation mechanism, what’s wrong. Yeah, you can you can give yourself the benefit of the doubt and do things that aren’t rational. Right, but love also like like this is one of the problems that I have when people talk about law, right, because love requires a poetic that’s the term we use but it’s like a participatory understanding. Right. Like, it allows you to have a way to intuitive we relate to what’s going on and if you, if you don’t have that intuition. You can’t enact. I like it, it’s just not an option. So, it’s, it’s, it’s important. When we talk about love that we have to realize that that some people don’t have the capacity, right, like they don’t have to discernment. And that they just can’t go there. And that that it’s a skill, right, like it’s it’s a way of being that that needs to be developed through practice. And that’s where, where I think religion is important, like that allows you to develop that relationship. Yeah, I mean, I would agree I just had the word yet. That’s that makes. Yeah, because that’s what I’m saying. In what you are framing, you’re framing out that potential ability to change or grow into it. But from where they’re at, they don’t see that as any sort of possibility. But it also isn’t right, like, exactly from that perspective it isn’t genuinely. Yeah, that’s the nihilism that I felt I was raising, like a very affluent part of the world and. Yeah, every, every problem could be solved with things. And that completely that way of viewing the world is poisonous, because it makes everything a transaction, including the relationship you have with yourself, I really think that really think it becomes. I need to work this hard so I can do this vacation because I deserve that. And it’s like all these weird extra layers and I need to get the car so I can score 10 neighbor points. I mean, exactly. And that type of. It’s all calculated planning, but, but there needs to be, it’s not like calculations all bad, but that that’s all calculated. That’s the exact phrase that’s like terrifying to me, it is all calculated. Well, no, but, but, but it’s, it’s a primacy argument. So, like, you count, you have, you have a tell us right. And then you tell me right so you were talking about about the conversation, right, like it can open the world up. Right. But it can also close it down. What, why do you want to close things down. Well, if you want to. Well, I’m thinking if I want to close the conversation that I want you to agree with me that my answer is right and then that’s going to close down. That’s scary to me but that’s necessary for action. For Oh yeah for. Oh yes. But then when you get to this bigger that’s breathing in and out exactly right. But you, but you need to act right and the action is going to give you to participatory experience, so that you can go back and open up into the bigger space. I think that’s what I was trying to grasp earlier when I was kind of deeper in thought about sort of our past conversations is, I think what I can now articulate is you guys really you and Mark and some of the, that little crew. You guys really enjoy the benefits of Philea and Ikea of having an there is definite it’s not like finding an Ikea that you guys really like that. And then someone like me. If I’m doing Philea and Ikea, I like to go into like PhD defense mode. That’s how I do finally in Ikea. I don’t have like another setting. I’ve watched those like my whole life PhD defenses so like, I love that, where I sound like I’m giving you like I’m still mining your argument, just to say something at the end that undermines everything. That’s what a PhD people do, they are brutal to argue with. And, yeah, but that’s, it’s necessary. But that’s not a service to the truth. That’s the problem. There you go. There you go. Good. There, that’s better. Right, very often I see that if you have Philea and Ikea, like, so the way I see it right like like you have this breathing, right. And now we go back to dogma right so. So, when you’re talking you’re setting up this this frame, the framing with the dogma right like the set of agree presupposition. And then you can say, well, if we look at the world using these presuppositions, we can see this. Right. And we should have agreements about that. Now, then, well, what does that mean like, well, I don’t know, right, like that doesn’t necessarily have implications because I don’t know if that’s true, right, like I know presuppositions are, but if you’re, if you’re, it’s objective truth that’s not objective. Right, but, but, but it’s important. Right, like, for the intimacy, right, like that that you can see the same space right and you can you can make same relationships that the other person is making right because now you, you, you have like build a ground on which you can start building more right and then when you when you run into a conflict at some point you can say well like maybe five layers down. We made an assumption that we shouldn’t have made. But, but you can only go there if, if you contest the territory right like if you clear the fields. And everything is black. So yeah, that’s, that’s the file in IKEA and I think, I think it’s really important in relation to intimacy that that you can have these agreements. So, the finally in IKEA. I’m going to, I’m going to ask, would be best served in pursuit of which of these two, the objective truth or the inter subjective true. Well, I would. It doesn’t have to be those two those are my that’s my framing you can go wherever you want. No, so so I don’t, I don’t like objectivity. Right, because objectivity it’s pretty supposing. But you could call it like a logical truth or something. Right. So, Okay, so I’m not going to call it truth. I’m going to call it true. Right, like I’m making a distinction between capital T truth, right, which, which is requires embodiment. Right. But there’s also true, right, which, which in some sense doesn’t require embodiment, it could be embodied birds fly. Right, like that’s true. Right. But, like, what, what does it mean, bird fly is meaningless. Right. Exactly. Unless you contextualize it in and then all of a sudden, everything falls. Yeah, I’m. That’s making more sense to me now. But yeah, but the point is, it’s bird fly is meaningless because it’s, you can’t implement. Right. So it’s not capital capital T truth, right, capital T truth has to be filtered through your ethical system. Right, like you have a frame and you say, well, if I accept this frame through my. Yeah. So that’s why you can have a truth, a small true thing that is not good or beautiful, but something that is truth would have to have goodness and beauty. That makes so much more sense to me. Right. Why you could have the possibility for both. Right. It’s not a logical trap to be in. Yeah, and you can map, you can map them and have an alert. Right. So there’s truth in the heaven, which, which is capital T truth, and you have truth on earth, which, which is effectively a fact or something. Right. Yeah. But the facts, facts don’t tell you right. This is where we have to is all got as well. Right. And then we’re the mediator between those two. Oh, and people can’t, can’t make that distinction. Right. Because, because, like, whenever I talk to people right like they, they always make influences. Right, like, because, yeah, well that’s natural right like it’s like, what does this thing mean to me, it’s like I’m not talking about what it means. Like, we first have to establish that we’re talking about the same thing. Yeah, that’s like Paul mentioned the word container. It’s like, you’re not talking about Tupperware, and you hear container, you are talking about the very abstract concept you are not talking about a container that contains things. You’re talking about a. Well, I’m talking about that which contains right the very meta. So, okay. Hmm. Well then, where so on a kind of this corner of the internet lingo. Where can we notice the intimacy crisis and do something about it where because for my, for my opinion, this is where I was going to kind of tie this back is I got in my town hall, I know my mayor, and all my politicians in my state. And then everything started to ripple effect, and like, all the kids, all my cousins and nieces and nephews and stuff are being affected by these terrible things. So I’m now on things that influence that I went and joined that I now have to talk to town hall, and I have to do all these things. So that’s where I’m being intimate, because like I’m that. I mean, I just want to know what type of things can we do to open people up to be confident to actually be intimate and put skin in the game and get things done, because discussing things versus doing things is where it’s where that gap is on really is. Like you like I can remember talking to you a long time ago, like, I joined the discord like week four or five awakening from the meaning crisis is when I like, got my first discord thing and was like what’s going on, like I’m on the portal group and crap, but I don’t know what’s going on, I’m on my lingo, and I’ve seen a whole lot of change in quite a few people. And that’s definitely from you not just sitting here all day. That’s from you actually going into the real world and giving a shit. So how do we bridge that, how do we get people to go into the world, where it’s intimate and actually real, not just close to them in their head. Well, there’s two things right like you can do that on the internet. Right, like, like when, when I’m talking about these, these wires right with couple wires and beams right you like in some sense that’s a muscle right like you can grow your capacity for connectivity, and the internet facilitates a subset of these connects, right, like it facilitates. And so, and I think, especially for people who have a shyness in in their human interaction. They’re the fact that that they are on the internet affords them the distance right like you were talking about closeness and that’s why I went into the closest I think, I think some people require the not closeness in order for them to have the security to make the connection, right to to get into contact with with the other person. So, like, I do feel like there is a place for the internet in. Well, so now you say well I go into the world because I’m affected right like I’m connected to to these issues. Right. So, well, what is that well, there’s a tell us right like there’s a purpose in in what you’re doing right like there’s there’s a way in which you’re affected, and you have skin in the game. And so I heard for vague you talk about this I think where where it’s like, well, failure has to matter. Right. Yes, but I’m like, well, that’s a negative formulation. Right. You can also say success. Which, which is a different type of motivation right like the one is running away and the other one is walking to one. Okay, so yeah, when he’s usually talking about scientific mess that method and how it interacts with the flow state. Right. That’s that’s like a good way to get truth but I see what you’re saying where. Well, but because kind of like measure success. Right, like, like, you can only measure failure. Because because success is, is communion with the ideal effect. Right, which is kind of is what the flow state is right. Like, yeah, but you can’t measure that that’s what’s awesome. You know I run a homeless place and when people ask me for, you know, how many people are successes I just like, I don’t answer that question. That’s like one of my big trigger questions. I’m like that’s not a, it’s not a thing. Like, I can tell you how many people have killed themselves. And since I met them. Like that’s my failure rate I can measure that I can’t measure my success rate I can tell you the fatality rate, that’s my failures. And that’s real. Like, so it’s really hard to sell some will think of how hard it will be to sell someone on the good that right I can measure you can’t. You can’t. But the good is self it sells itself. Yeah. Right. So it’s like, yeah, you have to just manifest it and shine bright, I guess. But to go back right like so. So what is what, what are all these, these groups of people on the internet that pop up right like like most of most of them are rejected reaction right like they’re identified against. Right, which, which is. Well, it’s like, oh, how could America you know, well when they’re at war, right, but that’s also identification of guns, right like it that that’s the call for you to be from Biden was everybody who’s mad guys against us we need to unite against them. It’s like right, fuck did you just say that is right, I don’t have anything good to offer get to me because I’m delivering you from either. But, yeah, and, but, so it’s really important that that that you give some people right like this, and access to this ideal right and you do have to manifest it right and you do have to have a relationship and I think that was the as to worry idea right, but I, I don’t, I don’t think the as to worry ideas is concrete. Right, like it’s, it’s, it’s not substantial. Right, like, and. So you can you can look at people from different stages right like like, like we talked about before, some people don’t have the capacity for law. Like they just don’t have what capacity for when I say capacity is the ability to act in right now, like, like I make a distinction between transformative and linear progression, right, so if they’re linearly progressing they’re never going to get there and you need to have a transformation in order to achieve that. Right. So, you first have to get people in, into a space where they’re capable. Well, they want to commit to that space and they’re capable of having this transformation. Right. And then when when they’re transformed. Then they have a tool set that that they can accept back, back into the world right and as you were talking about skin in the game right like when when these points go, go hot right and like I’ve, I’ve got a lot of criticism, right, because, like, like I, in my relationships, like I dance on that line. It’s like, well, like I feel like there’s, there’s something wrong here, right, like, you should you should watch into that darkness. Right. And sometimes people are like so freaked out that they just run away right. And it’s like, well, yeah, you’re not doing nice and like, well, they’re gonna have to look into the darkness, right, and I’m gonna have to know that there is darkness because they don’t know then they’re just gonna bump into the wall over and over and over. So, Yeah, so, so how do we get. So I think I think that’s that’s what we need right we need a way to get people into the tool set. And, and then back into the world into community. Right. So, so when I came into the church for the first time I’m like what, what the heck is going on here, what are they using all these words for right like it’s like glory and honor and whatever and I’m like yeah I know these words but I don’t. I don’t. Right. And I still feel I don’t know them but I know how I don’t know them now right. Yeah, so there’s a participatory experiential aspect that that’s just lacking. And I’m going to have to cultivate that over time and I think I think in some sense, what, what Christianity has done is is defined couple of axes of relationship. Right. And saying well these are essential. These, these are but that by which things manifest. And they’re all coming from the same source so so have a relationship with that source through these things, and then you can have relationship to other things as well. And now you can have right relationship like like I think I think the idea of having right relationship as well. You have to have relationship in in the right ways and like how do you discern which ways are correct is your transactional relationship the right way, and it might really seem so if if you want to rationalize it from a certain perspective that’s completely true right so now we’re, we’re in an ethical space, like, what are we. How are we privileging how we’re related well and Christian answers law, but then the question about what is love what you need to learn what it is. Hmm. Yeah, that’s, it’s weird it’s like I’m convinced I’m in it. I’m not a vow. Not a, not a thing that has glory I’m not a thing that has any of those words that you kind of know, but you don’t really know. Like, if, if that is what God is and I made in that image, but I don’t even really know those words that I’m using to describe the thing who’s in the, who’s, I’m the image of. I’m trying to focus on understanding what those words are, maybe I do have glory. I don’t know how much maybe just a smidge, but that’s, I think that’s going to a good step for me to kind of see because the abstraction versus that instantiation I see it too, too often they just there’s no contact between them. That’s really what I want to find is a way to. It’s interesting. Right. Like, I’m, I’m, I’m operating in this space that I can’t operate. Like, you’re like, good luck. And I think that’s what it buster syndrome is right like in person is kind of like, oh yeah you you’re operating in this space, but you don’t you don’t have to participatory understanding to. I have a couple of times when I’m in the work field where I have, like one of the ladies I work with you can in the mental health field for 43 years 44 years almost like I’m 30. So she has like almost 15 more as six years experience in the work field that we’re in, then I have years life. We get along very well, but professionally we’re really good team, because I have such a different personality than Kathy that like, if we if one of us figures out someone’s up to something, and we both agree, you’re done for, because we have like such radically her level of experience, she gets it. And then I have this like abstract like, I’m a sleuth I can’t help my nature. And so, I really think that that’s important to find and recognize that you do have something there. As much as you’re supposed to conform, you’re like, participate in conform with other, there is something that is you still that you need to hold on to and that’s, I think that’s really difficult right now that’s where I see that earlier. What do you mean, like, well it’s like, um, yeah well that’s why that flip earlier you made was so interesting to me with the. I think people can kind of take that logic, and then move it back on itself. So if I, if I’m so completely malleable. That’s where I’m scared is, I do want to somehow keep my distinction. Yeah, but I want to because you’re orienting towards golf, not towards people. Hmm. Maybe that’s what other people are doing. Maybe the major issue of like the zombies are people trying to orient to other people to that smoothness of other people, they have no interest in the actually orienting towards that higher or deeper or more real they can’t they like that they can’t see it. Well true Oh yeah everything is painted over with a nice shine they are seen why would I. Well, they don’t have to write, and it sucks. Right. So, hmm. And, and there’s a dead. Well, there’s this. When, when you’re at work. Right. And so we’re says go, go clean the toilets. Right. You can say, fuck you asshole whatever right in your mind, and say, well, I gotta pay the bills. Right. Or you can, or you can do it with joy. Yeah. Right, you can participate in my nickname at the martial arts studio was Cinderella, and it’s because every time something broke or got her, or whatever. I was the first one in the closet getting the stuff to go clean it, you know, the seller to the. Add it and it’s like, it bugged me for like a day or two and then I realized no one else can do that and then I like, owned it. Like, I don’t mind being console Norella when I’m training, because no one else has the balls to do what I do. And like, it was me taking on that exact charge of being like, well I guess no one wants to go. You know, so and so this guy is broken and blood. Right, like, like, because because it’s like, well, this has to be done but you can also say no, I’m participating. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and I don’t think other people have that option. Right, because that sucks, because they don’t, they don’t know. They don’t have a relationship to the group. Like they don’t they don’t see it like this this view from above right, it’s like well, if I’m always standing in the field. How can I see the pattern that I’m relating. Yep. Like, it’s, it’s not a lot. I don’t have that. That’s really weird to me. So that’s what I mean is like, they’re convinced that they’re not a, that’s what I was trying to say a moment ago. A very common glitch in people who are very mentally unstable right now would be something like, they’re convinced there isn’t an essence of themselves, so that they just need to conform to what is. And that will in that process they’re going to lose anything of themselves they should keep. Like most of you needs to go away I get that, but there is something that each of us is made individually, we’re not, we’re not supposed to all work and become carbon copies of Christ. Here we go, because I feel like you’re, you’re holding on to something. And what if you can’t lose that. You can’t lose it. Yeah. Even if you’re trying your best and that’s, that’s probably what the glitch is right now, because I mean, I see people with such a weak sense of identity that they don’t, they’re changing to whatever the moment is just But like I think that that movement is correct. I like that’s what the Eastern people are talking about. Right. But, but you need to do that movement in a container. Right, but the container isn’t you. Okay, so maybe. Okay, maybe I just, I’m gonna have to use a little bit of trigger word but not too bad. So if I have a globalist perspective. So here I am I’m someone who said that there’s only one type of person in my opinion, think we’re all made in the image of Christ. However, when I go to relate to people I can’t just relate to person. It’s too much there’s too much. There’s too many people, there’s too many. And so what I have is my nation or my whatever. It’s in between. It’s not all the way up, but it’s not me it’s above me but it’s sometimes you can talk about it differently, right, you don’t relate to people you relate to a tell us. Right. So now that tell us is saying, well, in order to write, so you were talking about categories natural categories, right. Well, if, if I wanted to have a relationship to the dog right the dog is a natural category for me, right, like, and it doesn’t matter whether I call it dog or right like, like that it’s all the same because because what I need to relate to doesn’t change, depending on the label that right so so the tell us is defining the label. Right. So when, when the tell us is here, then all these other people. They are. They have an identity in relation to the, to the tell us right. And that that identity might be political, political. Right. But it might also not be a political. And if, if you assign a political identity to a non political relationship. Right. Yeah. And, and, and so that’s the problem like like we don’t have to discernment about what the other person relationship is to the tell us what our relationship is to the okay so what’s popping in my head now is like Greece, ancient Greece. You basically have 13 city states that are always at war with each other, unless anybody else fights them, then they all stop what they’re doing. Team up and wipe out whoever’s picking a fight on. That sounds correct to me all of a sudden, with what you were just saying, each of like Athens is fighting for the identity of Athena. That’s who they are. They are members of the body of Athena. That’s what it means to be a member of that. But they’re also the member of the body of boots, but they’re also them exactly. So that’s interesting to me. And that’s why Zeus is daughter is Athena and blah blah blah. So okay. So that just gives like a great narrative explanation and then what I see our culture is essentially doing is reverting back to like Roman levels of Pegasus where we’re just, they, they make everything equivocal. Oh, your son God, and our son God okay Paulo raw is Apollo raw. No, but they’re both sun gods so we’re just going to say Apollo raw. And it’s like that. That inconsistency or that that mixing is mixing is what I see is, we think we’re saying the same thing. Yeah, but you can. Oh yeah yeah I like that right like so yes right like this is the criticism that I have right like the fake is good, and the Christian good and not the same good, like they’re not. They’re close to platonic. That’s why they can agree but it’s not the same. So yeah, that’s really important and you can you can see it in the Trojan war, right, so where the gods they flip right like there’s a bunch of gods is like, oh, I’ll just go there and like, yeah, that person pissed me off so I’m going to flip side, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go save Paris this time, he’s gonna have to get crushed by Ajax nope I’ll just pick him up. And that that’s happened. What is that? Well that’s chaos. Right. Like, like not now there’s, there’s no, like, like, there’s no integrity in the structure anymore, because, because we don’t have persistent category, because they’re not transfixed on the ideal, like they’re transfixed on local is idolatrous completely local instantiation that’s why I like the bigger patterns where it’s like the 12 houses, these basic things are, they’re such big patterns that people don’t even know that they’re participating in, like, the best example I have for showing that the the house, the zodiac is the thing that our ancestors knew about is just the Pentagon of the United States. So that’s the military building. And it’s a Pentagon. A Pentagon is a pentagram with the arms taken off. And the United States Pentagon is pointed due north at the North Star Thuban, not the geographic, not the real North Star. That’s the North Star from 6000 years ago when Egypt was taking over the world. And it’s like, even our house of war, where all the, where the most serious killings in the planet are organized and prepared is the United States Pentagon. And they are pointed at that store from that North Star from 6000 years ago, not magnetic north, not, why would they do that? Is it a glitch? Or it’s like, no, they’re, the stuff’s real and it’s really scary to when people see that there’s these huge patterns, you can participate in it. And sometimes the container can be adjusted and moved a little but there’s actually, you’re in the dawning of the age of Aquarius. That’s not just some hippie song. It’s like, we were in Pisces and now we’re going into Aquarius. It’s like, that’s actually what’s happening. It just sounds crazy. It sounds like hippie mumbo jumbo. It also is. It is hippie mumbo jumbo. I’m not saying it’s not hippie mumbo jumbo. I’m just saying it’s not just hippie mumbo jumbo. There’s a little, it’s like watching Sam Harris and Peterson discuss that I’m using Peterson’s argument. He’s like, you think that this grand procession that has held humanity together for tens of thousands of years is just arbitrary? It’s like, you’re dumb if you think that. Now, if you think that reading your horoscope is going to help you find your, like, then you’re also dumb. So it’s not, it’s not like one or the other. It’s just like, obviously, if this makes sense at all, it must be on to something. But in some sense, reading your horoscope is going to help you. Because, yeah. Because it’s going to motivate you to action and action is always better than in action. So it’s like, yeah, that’s, and that’s where a materialist brain in my head goes, oh, it’s just the placebo effect. All this stuff I’m doing is just placebo effect. I’m just obfuscating myself enough to not really recognize it. And I hope that’s wrong, because that’s my biggest fear. So what does it matter what it’s placebo effect? Because I don’t want it to be a thing that can be procedurally gamed. If it is just that. No, but you can. I hope. No, but that’s where nature and stuff, right? Like the will, the power doesn’t work. True, I mean. Right? Like you click, you need to submit, surrender to God, right? Like the surrendering, the giving of authority is essential for true transformation. So you can say all you want, right? Like either you have your own right relationship, right? Which means you surrender, right? Because that means that you don’t decide. Right? Or you’re not. And I don’t see a way out. That just makes me scared because I’ve talked to enough Muslims and that’s the exact argument they gave me for a law. Because a law basically just requires submission. And if you’re not submitting, then you are not in regulation and therefore you should not be. And that’s like really scary because that’s not what you’re saying because you want people to be able to fall into right relations. Right? It’s like you’re. It’s kind of what my question was earlier. What do we do to get people to change? So this is where sin is important, right? Original sin is important. Yes, we’re sinners, right? Like we’re not in right relationship, right? Like we’re not in the garden. Like that’s not a place that we might have temporal participation in the garden, but we’re not there. Like that’s not where we live. We also don’t live up the mountain, right? Which is maybe the place where the garden is. So, yes, right? Like if you’re not in right relationship with God, right? Like you’re a sinner, but there’s grace, right? Like there’s mercy and there’s law. Right. Like if you don’t have these things, like I don’t think there’s any Muslim that perfectly does the thing. I don’t think there’s anybody perfectly doing the thing. That argument is all I’m saying is like when I’ve talked to someone who really believes, who’s like trying their best to help me. Yeah, everybody, every one of us needs to follow the rules so that the thing will happen. But people can. We do need to follow the rules, but the rules are pointing at the spirit, right? And the rules are the thing that allows us to capture the spirit. And this is why we need leaders, right? Like we need the people to go up the mountain to commune with the spirit. And then they go down and they go, actually, out the spirit and everybody goes. Right. And they don’t know, right? Like they have to obey. Because they can because that else it’s not function, right? Like so the shepherd needs to lead the flock, right? Like the flock doesn’t know where to go graze next, especially not when there’s grazing contracts and whatever, right? Like the flock can’t navigate grazing contracts and they shouldn’t. Like that, like it’s not good for everybody to participate on that level because it’s not function. Like they don’t need to. Hmm. Well, I’ve never been more convinced that even though I’m a discreet Catholic, pretty much. All right. That Latin mass makes sense. And it’s weird how that you proved that to me in like a most roundabout, not on purpose way. Sometimes it genuinely it should call. It’s like they’re not telling you you can’t participate. They’re just saying you’re not yet. It’s kind of like really putting that out on the other person. This is an option. If you want to show up your town hall, you can show up to your town hall and start doing things that change your town. Like probably twice a month. So that’s a real thing. But then calling and actually doing that and having the bravery to take your three minutes and have everything written down so you don’t mess around with your three minutes. You can say what you need to say. That’s really tough. And I want to find more shepherds. Yeah, well, this also goes into the honor of wisdom. Right. So what if you participating in the ritual every week. Right. And you have participatory understand. Right. And then the participatory understanding slowly reveals the mystery that’s hidden within the Latin word. Right. But the Latin words are not something you have access to because you don’t have the book. Right. Like, oh, you can’t even read. Right. But there’s intelligibility that is literally revealed. Right. Like if we’re talking about revelation, right. Like an actual spiritual experience. Right. Like in some ways I think that’s the right way. Like we’re trying to invert up now with all the psychedelics and, oh, if I read all the pluralistic traditions and like all the 15,000 Protestant theologies. And it’s like, no. Like I’m in church. I walk around and I see these people participate and I’m like, I can’t go there. Right. Like it’s just alien. Right. Like I have my own wacky reconstruction that came from the wrong way. Right. Like, I climbed the mountain. And I was like, oh, look at what those people are doing there. Maybe I should go back to participate instead of participate. And I was like, oh, maybe you should go up the mountain sometime. Right. Yeah. Like, no, no. I did it the wrong way and I’m going to be paying for that the rest of my life. And I think I think you have the same issue. Right. Like that. Yeah, I think a lot of people here do. But you just said with that. Looking around when all the kids are playing sports when I was a kid, and I just didn’t understand the idea of the team. I just didn’t click. They’d hand me the football and I’d be like, okay, so that you want me to get this football over there. Okay, I can do that. And I was like really good at the sport but I was the worst team player. I was, I was the worst only only team player role they ever gave me this point guard and basketball, because nobody could tell what I was going to do. I just was like erratic and I’m impossible to be, you know, if I’m, if I’m the guy bouncing the ball deciding where it’s going to go. You’re about to get messed with, like, and I felt like an alien, like all the other kids that it’s fell right in. Oh, we’re picking up the thing and doing this thing and I’ve all the kids just did it and I’m sitting there like where do I stand. I don’t get where I’m supposed to be in the, I don’t see where I plug in I feel like I’m supposed to be outside looking at it. And yeah, that’s a very, very disheartening move to see that more and more people are falling into that pattern where it’s like I would do anything to do anything to not be like this. Here I am like watching our world to get trained to stand back and just take a dump on things and like disregard them, and without ever participating or see their value, right and then sitting in their own shit. That’s all that’s left, you don’t have anything. They don’t have anything else but that so. Yeah, I mean, it’s just tragic. Well I think, think that little explanation you just had to help me out quite a bit because that’s definitely how I’ve seen things is kind of like from my observer room. One of my, my nephew who’s had a bunch of brain surgeries he’s three years younger than me and one of my first memories is when he is just under five years, like his biggest brain surgery. And I got to be on like the second row, the big window, and it’s like a bunch of people looking down on the operating room. And like literally like they’re taking out his skull and like there’s his brain. And being like eight years old or something and looking at my nephew’s brain and realizing like, oh, I have a brain too and like that really grounded me in a way and then they also took his speech my nephew can’t talk. And like, just how that would changes the world he gets to be part of, you know he’s prom king nicest kid everybody loves them and he can’t even say hi, or anything other than hi, really basic one syllable words. It’s just, it’s such a difficult thing for me to see an entire culture of people going through very played out, not good things, and we’re just like allowing it to happen, allowing people to have this like critical. And I think it’s a really good thing to see a view from from beside a thing without participating on it, and thinking that they actually have anything, any know anything about it. Well, yeah, well, and even worse right like the. For fake it was talking about this right like, like, yeah, that that’s a participatory description but that I don’t want to participate in description I want to, I want to functional description I like. No. Oh, okay. Yeah, because it’s like, well, I don’t, I don’t want to know what it’s like to be like that. I want to know what it’s like to look at. I was like, why do you care what it’s like to look at it. Yeah, participate in a damn thing and be happy. Yeah, that’s the trap I think him and I are in that I’m hopefully I’m young enough that I can get out of it in time. Because, yeah, that’s like the self critical. I mean, someone who does doctoral defenses would think, like, that’s unable to ever stop and that’s terrifying. That’s what I did in church, the first three months is like, shut up, right, shut up, right, shut up, right. Like, no, I’m not here to, to understand. And I still, I still have right like, like, you’re saying this, what does that mean like, I’m trying to, to not get into to the words but I’m trying to get into the platonic form is like, oh okay like that’s the shape and like that’s the relationship. Like, that’s real hard. So, I guess I want to get into your personal reform a little bit. So, so I think we, we kind of drew a line through your life. Yeah, not very well sorry. No, no, it’s fine like, I guess we’ll get a lot of comments about. So, so, so, yeah, there’s there’s this, this observer stance, indeed, right, where, where that that’s blocking the intons. I mean, maybe that’s the closeness right to the close. You said earlier, you made this point that I’m really trying to figure out right now which is for some people for them to get that contact or something that you need that distance. And I’m trying to steal man that because I had, there’s something in there. Maybe not for me but I can recognize what what it’s talking about. So, if you’re hurt, right. If you’re injured. Right, especially. Well, you’ve had those experience right you had some people that supposed to take care of you. Betrayed. Right. So now, when, when you get into a relationship like that. Right, and that gets triggered. That creates not so much distance but it creates a wall. Right, like, there’s a defense mechanism. And I think your, your defense mechanism is probably skepticism. Right. So, oh, I’m just going to be in this ironic relationship and I can’t touch me. Exactly. The whole move it away that one step, and then you don’t have to actually. Right, but at that point I can’t have an intimate relationship. Yeah, it’s completely deadening, it’s like that one move. Because they literally said it’s, it’s like they’re just taking it I think it is pageau talking years ago, he’s talking about that, that perspective. It’s like, just take a stand back or James Lindsay’s branching to do or it’s like the critical view of things like the critical, like CRT type critical analysis of something is to always critique it to never, you never participate in that thing. That’s not even an option it’s not heavily. They have no interest in that they have an interest in standing apart from it. And being safe. Yeah, completely. And that’s what your brother did right like oh I stand apart and therefore I’m sick. And, and, and there’s, there’s many ways right so. So one, one. Another way is, is, is escape right, like, so there’s a way where, where you reframe was going on, right, so you effectively create an illusion. And that allows you to maintain participation, right like skepticism. Also allows you to maintain participation, right, like, so if you’re in situations where you feel the need to remain functional. Right, like the ability to maintain participation, but not be connectedness is is really valuable. Right, but there’s there’s also other things right like there’s people that get lost in their emotions, like in the day become non functional, you can have that You can have that either extraverted right in aggression, or you can have that introverted in in despair effect. Right. And anxiety. And, and I think I think there’s also a neutral relationship where you just ignore it, you just not tuned into the wavelength. And you’re just participating in parts that you can be participating in. But, but at that point right like you’re, you’re blind. Right, like, and so that’s like a zombie that’s that’s that’s like blind sight numb touch deaf hearing, that’s, you’re just going through the world but you’re not really there. Right. I lived for a while that’s why I can recognize it. That’s my answer to nihilism was just go into a very shitty Western reading of non action. And then was like all right wherever the chips fall I don’t care if someone wants to start a fight with me. They’ll come in here and start a fight with me. And totally didn’t help my mind state at all, because I was basically a zombie, like, very unconscious of what I was doing. Like on purpose though, like consciously trying to be unconscious of what I’m doing so I didn’t have to take any reaction or anything to it. So, to go back to, to the distance right. So, I can just go personal, right. So, when I started on the discord like three years ago, I was still heavily I was still brutally bruised by depression, and just the fact that I have this disconnect gives me the safety, right. And, and it’s not like, oh I’m in the city and I need to go home for 15 minutes or half an hour. Right, because if you effectively have a panic attack, right. So, taking that panic attack with you on the bike right. That’s not cool. Right. So, but if you have that and you can just shove yourself in bed and curl up in a ball. That’s, that’s less threat. Right, so that. So, so I don’t, I don’t want to talk about that specifically but I want to talk about that, that sort of damage please right like, oh yeah, I’m just going to be knocked out effectively is no longer having the same way, right, because, and the fact that it’s no longer having the same weight allows this space right like now you can be more daring, right, you can take up upon you more of a burden, because the consequence of failure is, is less. And that’s what I’m talking about. Okay. Now that makes sense to earlier. Now it makes a lot more sense. So that’s why. Maybe what we can do in this is remind or that cost of failure is so scary that that we forget the reward of the achievement, the actual. I can make it I can make it even better. What do you mean before. There’s no. Oh yeah I mean, like, are we depressed movement towards us. Yeah, there’s no reward. You can’t see the room. But you don’t have a relationship to it, you don’t have gratitude isn’t anything. Yeah. But you’re just doing it on the face. That’s why we need examples then that’s why you need the shepherds you need. You need to submit and realize you’re a sheep. And you don’t know what you’re doing. Well, just keep an eye on the shepherd and take where he’s going for a while. You’re participating in the spirit. Right. Like if the shepherd creates the spirit and you’re participating in the spirit. They don’t feel shit. Right like that’s not really a reward, but it’s, it’s, it’s not being in the hell hole. Right like, like, like, not being punished isn’t a reward. Right, like, like, that, that framing doesn’t. Like, you can frame it like that but that requires a whole lot of melody right extra stuff. Thank you master for not punishing. Ladies like, like, that’s the right position you need to get in. I mean, like, as, as someone who understands that engineering that’s what abusers will do is like torture their victim and stuff, and let them get a breather and ask if they’d like a cup of water, and then let them have like a couple sips of water. Just so they can go all that hope you have right now I love to give it to you so I can take it again. That’s how you know you’re up against someone who’s like genuinely evil, like that’s a thing that’s why hope to me is not always a good thing, like, I weaponized hope against people I don’t like, God forgive me, because I was a very bad person, and I knew how to, I knew how to take those things that were very good and like completely undo them. So, that’s very insightful for me to why, why it is that that particular framing of the the cost of failure has to be real. Why there needs to be mercy in that system now makes sense to me much more clearly, because someone in that system only sees failure, they don’t even know. That isn’t another frame so like you’re so above and beyond when you’re talking like that that it’s not helping the person who’s on the ground in the field. Like, they don’t know a mountain top there’s clouds there, there’s not a mountain top the mountain goes forever. What are you talking about, they don’t understand. Yeah, so that’s that’s one of the things right that I tried to do it’s like, no, there is a mountain. Right. So, I’m like, I’m not saying that you can go there. But I need you to acknowledge that the mountain is there. It’s real. Right. Yeah, and you can you can pretend you’re there you can put your conscious, even if you can’t get there. You can take the perspective of being. That opens up the world that really does. Well, but it’s also a judge. Right. Because if it’s there, right, what have you been doing with yourself you loser. Exactly. That’s like a huge debt. Yeah, but, and so, so, the call the problem that I run into when I talk to people is, is that that they’re, they’re making the connection to themselves right like, also you’re saying I’m not there or you’re saying I should be. I’m not saying that. Right. I’m, I’m trying to get you to acknowledge reality. Yeah, and then you can start growing, but if you don’t know where the good is, you can start climbing, all you want. If you’re on the wrong mountain you’re fucking screwed. Yep. Right, you can go back down again and then you can go. Don’t do that to yourself. Especially when you have people trying to help. That’s the other thing is, um, I remember like my sophomore year I was in a really weird class and she asked us, like when I was cheesy. She’s clearly had a hangover or something so the teacher just asked us like a made up assignment justice like what would be your superpower. And I was like to be able to take advice. That was my superpowers like I’d be invincible like no one real to stop me. What if I could actually take advice from other people I’d be the most insane powerful. Yeah, I remember like I was, I was here. And I was having this conversation and with someone who was supposed to hate me. They said, Well, I know you, you don’t feel as a success when you did that. But do you understand that other people do feel that that’s good that they have a positive experience. And I’m like, Yeah, of course I do. I’m like, but I’m not there. I’m just not then that’s not my. It’s like, well, can you tell me how to get there. That was no and I’m like, like, why, why are you bringing it up. I really wish I cared about those things like I’m really bad like I can take someone’s good day and make it worse. And that’s really something I hate about myself. Like, I, I, if I am not in the mood, I just won’t show up to the thing you invited me to. And that’s better than me showing up. If I’m not in the right mood. I know me, and I’ll do that. And that’s how I feel with relationships. That’s really important man. That’s like, like, oh, you don’t want to have a relationship with me right now because I’m going to mess you up. Yes, are you. Yeah. Well, we need more honesty between things like that because I love telling when people ask me how my day is I always tell them how my day is. I’m like the worst. Like, I never say like good unless it’s going good. And, so when I go to church I had this, I had a big issue. That’s right. When I go to church is a certain point. When I asked you how you’re doing. You should answer with I’m blessed highly favored. And I was like, that’s not. Yeah, it’s difficult to understand why I agree. Now, that’s taken me a long time to understand right, that I like, I, I can sometimes say that now, right, not because I feel blessed and highly favored. I can take the perspective of, oh, things could be way worse. Way worse. And I’m actually on a path. And like the fact that I’m on the path I should be grateful for. Right. That’s, ah, dude. Yeah, I could. So basically that lesson is what my Reverend beat into my head. Like yeah, you’re like a total jerk. You’re an island like you have every, but you’re still in the top 1% of. Yeah, you are in the top 1% of most educated people to ever live in existence. There’s never. And like he just laid it on me and like, he didn’t tell me my privilege. He told me like genuinely what I have. And he was like, how dare you not be grateful for that. And I’m like, it’s so true that you can’t not genuinely there’s no way to rationalize around. If you’re able to say those words, then they’re true. It’s that simple. Like, that’s pretty good. Look at yourself that way. Why can’t you look at yourself that way? Because what are you looking at? You’re looking at Earth. Like, oh, I have a shitty day. Right. Like, like, and well, but it’s important. Right. Like, like, that’s, that’s the thing. Right. Like, we should, we should look at having a little bit. And that’s real, real hard. So yeah, like, there’s, there’s different scarcities. And what is the scarcity? Well, scarcity is a lack of connected. It’s like, it’s a lack of your ability to have an intimate relationship, because some something is withdrawn from you. Right. And then, well, are you going to live in a way that what is withdrawn is going to be returned to you? And maybe if you’re have been a good person in the meantime, it’s going to be returned to your time phone. Yeah, scarcity is what I was trying to think about earlier with the bountiful. Like, I think we’re called to live. Anybody who has the ability to say that response that you mentioned, you know, I’m blessed and well favored, then they should, they should know not only that I can get so much worse, but that they can in some way prevent that. And that’s what they’re called to do. I think that’s, that’s why, like, one of the tougher guys in my town right now, Griff, he’s, he doesn’t like when it’s like, whenever he asked me, I’m doing, I always think good. He’s like, well, you’re out doing the Lord’s work, you’re doing this, if you showed up, he laid into me and he was like, kind of tongue in cheek, but he was being serious enough that I couldn’t take it like a joke, you know, like, only an old guy can talk to you kind of in between kind of tongue in cheek, but also like dead serious about everything he’s saying. And he was like, you know, basically like, don’t, don’t tell me you’re not doing good. Because you’re out participating in your, you’re not just laying in bed right now and man that’s really hurtful to stay grateful, like, are difficult and hard and like the most genuine sense to stay grateful. So I think that’s what I’m going to try to aim for, especially now that I see what you’re aiming about with the people who have lived in punishment, don’t know what a reward is. So you can’t sell them on the reward. That’s not a thing. My parents tried to reward me. I was like, whatever, like I wouldn’t do the thing that you want me to do because I don’t care about the reward. Like, nope, I’m not gonna play your game, like, whatever, just out of defiance. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, if you’re willing to give it to me, it must not be that good. That was my thought process behind that. I thought everybody was really selfish. Like, like, in some sense I’ve always looked to have. Right. So I’m like, like, I don’t need to. Right, like, what you’re asking of me is a corruption of my integrity in some way. Right, whether it’s imagined or not. Yeah, that’s why I work on salary. That glitch in me is why I work for salary right now. And it’s like I work 60 to 80 hours a week, and I’m paid 40 hours a week, standard. Never gonna have a time or nothing. And it’s because of that like thing in the back of my head, thinking, oh, you just want to, now you think I have to do there. I think I found a way around that for me myself for now, with my employment, but most of my life that’s been a big issue. You know, that transaction. I think that that’s baked into the deal when it’s not always. Hmm. Well, I’m starting to kind of like, get spent and thinking. Well, I want to point the arrows at the future so you already went there a little bit. Yeah. So I usually go well where where are you in five years right. When you’re manifesting. Yeah, what I’m up to right now is. Usually I’ve gotten a bunch more responsibility in my state because I kept on showing up to meetings and stuff. And so now I want to. Well, ideally, in context of intimacy. Right. Yeah. So I basically I want what the integration of my state’s healthcare and mental health care. Right now everybody feels like it’s like a robot thing. And I’m now the trainer for all the people who actually run all those places to me it’s like it’s Sarah from this place and Tony over here. It’s not just this corporation or whatever it’s like a group of people. And my goal in the next five years is genuinely just to get these I’m trying to think of the right word like entities these groups of people they all think that they’re in competition but genuinely, we’re all here to help people for if you’re working the mental health field. If you’re working spear support that means you’re trying to help people. You want people to get better. And I want to get like conferences and these things moving less. Less framed as a professional thing and more framed as a personal attendance. When I get good show up most of the good attendance I get from any interactions, is because the people aren’t just, they happen to have a job that overlaps with the thing and they care about. So, I want to find a way to get people who actually care about this stuff to join these tough jobs to go, go be a peer support specialist or run a crisis team in your area, do the stuff that’s really hard. And then, like, cheesy word but it’s like literally a family thing like getting my crisis team. We all are literally paid everybody is like professionally, we’re the crisis response team. So it’s like, when the cops are called because the guy has a gun to his head or whatever. They don’t just want cops there they want someone there who’s trying to talk them down that crisis response network of people. They don’t want us to just refer to us as a team, or a, or whatever, we’re all the people genuinely showing up when there’s a crisis going on, we actually care about these people. You know, like, you can’t pay us enough for this job to be worth it. It’s a shitty job to run in crisis. And I’m trying to just change that frame. I’ve only found one person even knows the problem I’m talking about right now and that’s Greg Henriquez, the guy that for me he’s done a couple things on he has like untangling the world not series. He talks about the problem with psychology where it’s like, he’s a therapist, and he’s training this, you know, he’s this person’s therapist, and he’s training this person and trying to help this person have a better connection with their life, be more intimate, be real grounded in their life. But if he’s in the grocery store and he sees them he has to act like a robot like he doesn’t know them. And he’s like that’s completely backwards like, if I see my client or whatever and I’m your therapist, if you have the store and you’re having a good day. I should be elated, be able to like share that you’re out of your house I know how bad it can be difficult it can be for you to get out of your house near your are, I should be able to treat you like a person. And not like a client. And so I see. That’s what I want to aim at is like personhood should be prioritized over client over addiction over party line over all these things. And we’re going to have to just toast weird events like the one up in Thunder Bay or wherever, and get people who have no business being near each other all together. And that’s my goal lately, and very much in the next five years is just to prioritize people genuinely knowing each other and not just being like oh he works there. Or, oh, so they do this. That’s interesting because I listened to this, well listened to this podcast this union live which is, I advise that to everybody if you want to learn to think more in union terms. But they were there they’re also therapists, and they were also having a story about like meeting someone in real life. And, and how that changes the relationship right like it’s kind of like, like you meet the sacred. Yeah. In, in the plane. And that that disenchants in some way. Right. Oh man, I, if I could go back to one person that I’ve only met once in my life that had the biggest influence on me I got to watch the movie pie. I mean, I’ve never seen the movie pie. Aronofsky movie, very intense, like if you have never seen the movie pie. It is for people like you and me who are like stuck in their head. He basically he’s, he’s a Jewish mathematician he wants to find the pattern of pie. That’s the story so but it’s a very trippy movie. I was sitting next to this woman. And like of all the things she could have put on to put on that movie and I watched it next to this lady. I have this, like, if I met her and I could know it was her, her and I would hug, like right away. We completely click it was a plane flight. Literally like, I’ve had a lot of plane flights, that’s not the normal thing. But it’s like that level of connection I had with this person with this one thing and it’s like, we’re never going to be able to meet each other there’s no way I have her name, I was a kid, I was just separated my parents were like, cool with her and I sat up there and my parents were in the back next to each other. And like anyways, I would do anything to have more of those moments, because that like the level of intimacy, like her explaining what she got out of that movie and the level of intimacy. And this level of connection I had that this lady I’m never going to just sitting on a plane ride next to her, or whatever. And then a conversation at the grocery store or something can really shake someone like I’ve seen someone who’s unbelievably bad mood, like depressed, to the point where they’re getting vengeful. I was in a conjunction with my, my niece, and I let not friends, classmates with in, in the conjunction acquaintance with my niece, and I just asked my niece who’s a rather. She has like snake bites. She’s all tatted up my niece looks like she’ll hurt you, and she will. And I asked her just be nice to this guy, hey, could you do me a favor and just be nice to this kid, like when you see him, just smile. Just be a big smile. And, like two three years later he came to us and like let us, or came to her and let her know that she stopped him from killing himself one day, like he was going to go kill himself because nobody cared. And then one day when he looked up my niece happened to see him and she just gave him a big smile. That’s it shouldn’t say hi. Nothing just a big smile. And this guy that they have to bump into each other, you know, how their lives coordinate they have no reason they don’t really know each other. But he said that literally saved his life now he’s friends with my niece and stuff, but it’s like, very interesting how those little moments can have such reverberations. It’s stupid as though it seems so inconsequential it’s the thing that’s been done so many times, how many plane flights go on where nothing happens. Most of them. So, I would do anything to open up that that that connection with people and let them. There’s going to be a point with anybody that you’re in a district, no matter who they are not close to our, there’s the point where there’s going to be that thing that’s a wreck. But so what exactly there’s so much more important than that. And so, thanks. That’s my point though is there’s so much more than that matters then that disagreement, even if we disagree about that thing it’s like okay well we can move on and come back to it later. You know like that’s not the point. Well, I had actually with Mark I had a different strength. Right. So, it wasn’t so much disagreement, right, just because. Okay. This goes into your mail. Right. You have to be aware of what you know, you don’t know. Yeah, right. So, if, if you tell yourself you know something you don’t. And you’re going to get into disagreements. Right. That’s going to be messed right so I am market had the subject right we call them dragons of the apocalypse. And it’s like, for example relevance, like relevance realization. Like if you want to figure that out like what that is. Right. Like, like, we kind of got a sense of it now. Right. But it’s still like super fuzzy and it’s big. Right. So this entire life work. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to, if you want to tackle that while you’re not ready. You’re going to get into some, some crack one. Right. But what we said no it’s a dragon. Right, like, there’s maybe a pot of gold behind the dragon but like I’m not going to fight that right, because, like, I don’t have to. And it’s a drag. Don’t fight. I got fight some some lizard somewhere else. I’ll leave the dragon for what it is. And, and so, so you having that humility and say well like no like I’m not ready. Like that’s too big. Yep. And, and, and, and you can avoid a lot of conflicts when when you, when you take a position of humility like like a lot of women, right, like, they often they have this thing that they need to work up. Right. There’s a question right like are you going to accept the frame that’s offered to you from the guy. Right, like this age works like this, Oregon, are you going to rebel and be stubborn and have to work it out yourself. Right. Now I can tell you that when you listen to the guy like maybe one in 10 times the guy is going to be wrong or whatever is going to be insufficient. But that means that you’re going to have to get it, you’re going to get it right nine times out of 10. And like, like what’s your own success rate. Right. And like what’s how much burden do you get on yourself when you’re working it through yourself. And what does that require what it requires mittens. Right. And it requires you to hack a comforter place of humility right like, I don’t know, help. Right. But if you’re not coming from that place. Right. And you’re going to work it out yourself, you’re going to end up in comfort. Right, especially if the guy thinks you know. So, And this, this is submissive right like, like, and what what are you what are you trying to do. Right, like, like, why is it important that you’re in the comfort. Like it’s like why is it important that you figure this out. People, people need to read rethink these relationships themselves and they need to step out of the individual. Like I like I literally. After my meditation I tell myself to stop thinking all the time, like when I noticed that I’m going into a thought pattern. And I can’t justify to myself. I’m just stopping, like it’s like, like, why, why am I trying to figure out what the price of this should be or whether I should buy this or not, but either I am intending to buy it. Or I’m like, I like I don’t have to figure it out. So I don’t know where I’m going with this. But oh yeah so it’s the humility, right like it’s, it’s again the place from which you’re, you’re engaged, what’s the ground, you’re standing. So I also. Now the word that’s popping in my head right now is, because you said submission, I’m thinking, what goes with that or what’s required to balance that submission is admission. And admission. I kind of looked it up just to make sure my brain was really tracking. It does have this like interesting dual meaning right here where it’s basically one is a statement like a proposition of an admission of guilt or an acknowledgement right that’s one sense of admission, but there’s also admission as in to be allowed to enter. And so, it’s like that submission to submit to something would also mean that you’d have to admit that it is above to submit would mean you’re under that would logically imply that the thing that you’re going under within the above. But, you know, I would frame it differently right. So, the submission is to a body. So, you put the body above you. Right. But the admission is you become part of the body. Right. So your mission becomes part of the mission of the body. Right. So the body has responsible ability to work because you’re part of it now. Yeah, you can admit it in. Right. And that’s, that’s the basis for the trust. Right. Like, so the fact that that that that your mission is incorporated. Yeah, that’s real beautiful. I like that. When you when you when you said this submission one time it actually clicked with like what that would. That’s a proper transaction. That’s not a. That’s not a dirty word. That’s not a dirty word transaction that’s more of it’s. Yeah. Well, yeah, but people can’t even look at the word in some sense right and and then, yeah, why am I not admitted, why, why can’t I come in, it’s like well I’m sorry it’s, you can come in but you need to work for it. Yeah, you need to submit right like you have to submit to get me admitted. Yeah, I can’t just admit you because you declared that you want to and that’s not how this works. Right. No, and I think there’s a primacy to the submission. Right. And then the admission is coming as race in some sense. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you want to be. If you’re submitting to something evil you’re not going to be admitted into it. It’s just going to use you and discard you it’s not going to incorporate you and grow and like that, and bring you into it, it’s going to just. Yeah, I like little technical words so that one really like I was thinking humility a lot, but not when, now that I can see where it would structure and why, especially that I see. Now that I can really see. Basically, Lori Paul’s transformative growth argument you can’t see where you’re going to transform to from where you are. And so, if all I see is punishment and stuff I don’t know what reward is how would that incentive doesn’t even doesn’t go into the calculation at all. So, it’s just very interesting to see that all right and that’s why you need a tour. That’s why you need a chapel. And that’s why you need to submit. And then to remember that you. It’s so easy right now to submit to the wrong thing though. And I think that’s also another scary because people don’t want to submit to anything because they feel like anything they submit to won’t be the highest and it’s like well, it may be it’s moving you towards it, if it’s just even moving you towards something that’s going up that’s good enough, like, it’s very unlikely you’re going to find the. It’s helping you towards it I think it’s worth. So, yeah, well yeah well no that that is that is that is a difficult question. Like, I like I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have the answer, because, because I think things like, like, I know that there’s better versions of this but the internal family systems. Right. Yeah. That. That’s like qualities. Right. It’s how I, I can’t help but map it that way because now that I’ve seen. I’ve seen that the, the way our set our culture has set it up is antithetical to the basic of the family politics. If you don’t know what a family is and how a family’s, then how can you even like, oh, I didn’t even think of that. Exactly. That’s that’s so that’s so Gina that’s what I meant by the self thing it’s like you’re so intimate with it, but it’s completely out of grasp so here you are wanting to relate to this thing that you’ve terminated what that means you’ve, you’ve completely this term. And then you said this is what I want to be and it’s like, well, you’re gonna like, like, completely. Yeah, you don’t you don’t have the relationships. Yeah, yeah. Oh my god. Oh, yeah. That’s just, well, that’s, but that’s great to see that we can, you and I have managed to get ourselves to get out of that loop not ourselves out of that loop. But something has caught us up out of that loop. It can’t all be calculated. If it was all calculated, you and I would have never been able to whatever that was. Well, I calculated that I couldn’t calculate it. Well, the calculations prove that you can’t say, don’t go forward. Yeah. That’s why I like girdles incompleteness theorem so much is it’s like any system that’s complete has to have inconsistencies. It’s, there’s your, there’s a trade off you’re either complete or consistent, you can’t be both. And that’s so difficult, but that’s the truth. It’s like, maybe God can be the only one that’s consistent and complete. So this is interesting, right. So, what if multiple personalities are ways to maintain consistency. But within a separate arena. Yeah, yeah, they’re, they’re simple would be the perfect example she was a very high functioning kindergarten teacher who had multiple complete different personalities. She was like a functioning kindergarten teacher and does get a breakdown in front of the class. And that’s what we found out about Sybil, who’s like one of the architect of an actual mental. She had multiple lives. It’s not like multiple views of her life or multiple perspectives of her like no. She had multiple lives. That’s terrifying. Because you can’t genuinely prove that you don’t. Well, there’s something to that right like women put on their face. When they go out, like that’s an actual expression. Well, I’m glad my wife doesn’t wear makeup, but most women yes exactly. So like like in some sense that that is good like I actually saw this in tune. It’s like, my, my makeup is my Zen moment. I was like, yes, that that’s right. Your makeup right like like have that meditative experience every day, but, but it’s also a transition. Right. Like people used to change clothes for dinner. And then, right. So there is something in appropriating the right relationship, right. And I think that’s what prayer is for for dinner as well. It’s like, oh, we’re switching container, we’re getting out of this one into the next one. I have a great example for that why I dress like a bum all the time. So like, I’m called to dress up a lot. And I pretty much don’t except for funerals and very specific things. And that dressing up. One of my favorite studies was when I do crisis intervention teams for police will show them that when they’re putting on their uniform. If I have a heart rate monitor on them, they’ll usually go up about 15 beats a minute. Just putting on their uniform, like putting on your bulletproof vest, putting on your belt, putting on your gun, your body is just like, getting ready. It’s proper. And then someone like me I literally like, don’t get out of my flip flops unless I have to. And it’s because I was raised around all those very high registered people and I love being the opposite. I also get high fee and can go past them and insanity of like intensity but I’ve noticed that trick I really don’t like addressing up for church or anything because like if I’m wearing a suit and church that’s military attire. My brain knows that I can’t not think military terror. Well, you’re an army of God, dude. I get it but it’s like, he’s called me to be sacrificed not to be. So like, I get it though it’s like that conflict and we’re talking about participating at the Orthodox Church, they marry of Egypt, it’s an intense story for how it’s a part of my life. And when everybody came to kiss the icon, I couldn’t, I just couldn’t kiss the icon. I didn’t even move I just like stood there. And I had, I like prayed and I know if she could hear like, I am not meaning disrespecting, but I genuinely can’t. It’s too real. It’s not that I don’t believe that I don’t. I don’t know how to. I don’t know how to move that, you know, I just did a three hour and a half hour service there’s only six of us in here. They all noticed that I didn’t get up. But I couldn’t. It’s like, if I got up it would be performing for them. I don’t know what it was. It was like one of the weirdest things, because it wasn’t like I cared about their perspective, because for a moment I almost got up to save face for them. Like, well everybody was doing it and then I was like, well I can’t. Yeah, yeah, I just can’t. Are you afraid of the intimacy with Mary. Mary of Egypt, her story is extremely rough, like Mary of Egypt has a rough go of it. And with the women I work with and like it’s just it’s too real for me. How she was sexually abused all this stuff, even when she’s trying to get to Jerusalem. She has nothing to trade, so she offers one of the Christian ships her body in exchange, and they have to decline her and they can’t even bring her on the ship, because she would tempt them. So they want her to come they’re like please try to come. But we can’t bring you on the ship, because not all of us are strong enough to tell you no. And so she gets her way to Jerusalem by selling her body to an like the mother, the Mary of Egypt’s story is so real for someone like me who literally works domestic violence and stuff that I just was like, yo, there’s new nothing new under the sun, I have, if I brought like the last three domestic violence women I know, and had them sit in this church for three hours, and go through the whole liturgy. I’m pretty sure it rock them too much, it’d be way too much. It’s just like, way too much too much for a normal person, much less when he asked to actually live that life. And, yeah, it was just like too real it was like very strange moment for me, where I was like, very conflicted of like, I know that’s real I know everything I was just told is real, none of that was made up. I mean, it’s not even anything like how the stories told I mean it’s basically even the recordings of Mother Mary of Egypt. No one wrote down that story for a long long time, because nobody knew about it except for the people at that. At the place where the place, they had no reason to write it down. They all just shared the story. And then someone came in from outside heard that story and was so amazed he was like please let me write this down and share it with the rest of Christianity and that’s why we got her story. But it’s like, upon hearing the end it’s either they made all that up. Like it’s perfectly rational that all of that story is bullshit, like, I can say that like it’s perfectly rational to go through it. That’s just a really good story to sell to sell Christianity. Yeah, if you had a prostitute you told her that she should become a Christian. But it’s also like, I don’t think anybody could make that up. I genuinely think it’s real. Like, telling me someone made up the story of Christ, like, how who, who’s smart enough to like, well, like, it’s impossible at that point then their Christ right. But it’s really like, you couldn’t have been fake because like how many contingent things there are all of reality breaks down if somehow that’s not real. And I had that epiphany in my, like, sitting in a church and just being like, oh, oh no. I actually think this is all real. Like that’s really scary. Because I prayed to St. Ignatius, he’s the guy who has fed to lions at a Coliseum, like, that’s who I’m praying to be like, what’s wrong with us like something is wrong with us. Why would I think this guy’s right. How did this story end. He’s eaten by lions. He’s my hero. Okay, what? Like, yeah. So, I don’t something can’t be. It can’t be contingent or made up or something. Feels like it has to be real to me. So, that’s why those little moments I’m hoping in the future people can recognize those moments that they they know is real. And you can let them go by. And I really hope we can start more people will stop letting those moments go by. You know, you don’t have to participate in them, but you’re called to and I’m hoping where people, when they hear that calling to participate in that moment that you can’t plan to just do it, just take it, you’re, it’s going to be worth it might kill you, but it will still be worth it. Like, you give that a little bit more flesh. Like, you mean, the moment that you can choose to face Alliance. Yeah, I mean, well, that’s probably more dire but I mean that moment where you’re realizing that this is real. And I think that you can get in the, you can keep this life you’re living as like a dream, like it’s just another instance I’m loading into in a video game and it’s just going to fade I don’t have to really care about it, or I think those little moments come up, and you have like a weird conversation. I think I drove across country recently and like, while driving across Texas. I walked, I like looked at my, I was hungry. So I like looked up local place in this little town I was in driving through, where’s the best place to eat. And I went there and as I was like pulling in, I was like, this is the best place in this town, like that review I read is a real review from someone who loves to eat here, because I could just feel it felt good. And I was like, I had a great conversation with the person, like the lady running the place. I let him know my wife has a food cart and I run a thing and I just opened up on a conversation to have this really great conversation with them. And it almost didn’t happen. I was going through my mind right before I got like way personal and just like spilled my beans to this person because there’s no one else eating. He’s sitting there chopping me. And I could tell I like came right at the low. There’s usually a bunch of people here and I’m here alone in his restaurant. And there’s just this dude chopping his barbecue. And I started the conversation it was just an amazing, amazing conversation I had with that guy. But I had that I could remember still this moment and recalling it where I had to like argue with myself to even initiate it, you know, like I could just let this slide. I’m sure this guy would like to talk but he’s busy right now he’s chopping me. He wants he just wants to work. No, he doesn’t just want to work, wants to work and feed people and have be part of this world. He’s feeding me I just drove from Arizona I’m in Texas right now to see my great aunt. He wants to pride in what he’s doing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, good pride. Yeah, he should have pride in it was very good food I felt great after eating and I like, and that little moment telling people good job like actually encouraging them. Wait, maybe we should rephrase that he wants to participate in the glory of what is manifested. There we go. There you go. If you’re going to go to the Christian that’s exactly right the glory though, because I mean, it’s just barbecue but here I am of all the barbecue stops but chose this one and it’s like, I just read the Google review and it looked like some teenager kid was like, right, he’s like this is where I go for my lunch break. I like to meet my dad there because he gets his lunch break same time sometimes like that was the comment I read where I was like, this is the one I want to go to if the kid doesn’t get to meet with his dad very often and where they meet for lunch, this place probably has And it’s like, lays potato chips on like a, you know, the thing. It’s like pinch the little thing to get your own bag of chips and you go open and the thing and get your own Coke, like it’s a hole in the wall barbecue place but it was like, much better than going to McDonald’s or going to. I mean, I could have gotten a much more efficient cheaper meal at all the other restaurants, and it would have not given me that great conversation that great moment of connecting with this guy hearing about why he decided to do what he’s doing, you know, COVID started. He had been a sous chef in the, the restaurant fired him. Instead of keeping him and he’s like I’d given them, you know, decades of my life, the moment they didn’t need to pay my check they stopped paying. And so I went on my own and I was like, see that’s, and it’s like very intense conversation with someone that I’ll never probably see again and I don’t shout out he’s somewhere in Texas, whatever, it’s like, we need to foster those moments in all of life, like, everywhere, they’re not going to be planned schedule them very easily, but there’s going to be those things and I think we need to take the time to appreciate those moments at the diner at wherever you’re at. So I was that the transfer. I went to a fancy restaurant with my family. And there was this person that said, well, now you’re going to have this with this and this and they had this menu card, and then you could have a mind of wine selection with the menu. You can also have a juice selection. So they had these, these home where they had like pine needles with whatever like sage. Like, like, like, so it was, it was super fancy right and so it’s done every, every course you came and she explained it, right it’s like, well, and then there’s this techie flavor and it fits with the meat that you’re going to eat right. And then she said, I was, I was really pleased with you guys being a guest because, because we interacted with her, right, we showed genuine interest and like, usually people are just like, listening to what she says is like okay you’re like fancy food. And so yeah like that interaction and huge. That’s it. Well, but it’s also huge that people can appreciate. Right, because there’s also people who just don’t care. I have a friend who she’s a really nice person and because of an injury she cannot taste. And so, her and I have had conversations we like went to high school and stuff together and she would get really bummed out that a conversation could go around something she doesn’t have, right. We’re all saying how good this to. And she doesn’t have smell or taste. It was one of one of my most eye opening experiences of my life when my friends you know I laid that on, like, why she’s a vegetarian and a vegan isn’t like ethics and stuff it’s like, I can eat tofu every day because I don’t taste anything. Like I can’t smell my food it doesn’t matter how much cinnamon you put on it, it doesn’t matter to me unless it’s spicy and hurts me I don’t, I can’t tell. And it’s like that really maps on to what you were saying earlier how some of it’s not like there’s different people it’s just some people do have a higher capacity. And you need to lean on them for these certain things now my friend Sabrina she’s really good at other things like God didn’t like forsaker, but like it. She does get bummed out when she sees like everybody pleasing and they go, ah, she doesn’t have smell. She can’t smell anything. She could participate. She does. She’s a great host. Her house parties are awesome. No, but she can’t participate in the community. Right. Like, she can, you can have to reaction right you can have a jaded. reaction right like where it’s like, oh, I’m missing this or it’s like, yeah, oh no I can still see them enjoy it and to their enjoyment, I can partake. Yep. That is, that is really hard. Right. That’s where you have to face all your demons and, and be okay with. She’s a she’s a rather tough cookie. My friend, Sabrina who I’m talking about, because that’s, that’s, she was someone else who worked at a martial arts studio. So her and I both had keys to like different dojo. There’s everybody else thinking they’re cool and it’s like, I can literally like open up a martial arts studio filled with weapons and filled with, and like I know the security code. She had her own wavelength, but it was very much that because she’s come to think of it like her parties and stuff for great. She never, she didn’t care what was being served as long as everybody is going to eat it. Like she’s a great host, because she didn’t have much taste. It’s like a very weird. No, no, no, but that’s true. Because she doesn’t need to sacrifice something that it’s not a sacrifice for. And, and that’s why you need to willingly sacrifice like so that you can make the sacrifice when it’s when it’s required. And, yeah. No, like this, this is some good stuff like, yeah, let’s point a little bit towards the future so that we can still have. Yeah, we had structure. Towards the future is definitely. Now what I’m thinking is basically what I want to do is find a way for humans to be okay with doing house parties and stuff again, you know, like, just meeting up for the sake of meeting up so you can meet my strange friend. Why do I want you to to meet because you’ve never met before, and you both know me so I’d like you to meet. I don’t want to be friends or anything, but we’re gonna have a great conversation and this, this dinner party is going to go fun because that weird dynamic of people, so I think that’s kind of what I want to host me my wife and I literally do a soup kitchen every night, and that is the idea and my wife was upset that there was no place for hungry people to eat my community. And so that just irked her, she wrote that down and like two or three years later. And so we worked where that opportunity was given to us. So we took it. And I think that that’s generally we need to do is make run house parties, run a conference that’s as basic as consciousness, could you get a topic more broad. Like there’s no. It’s like the most. Let’s all talk about the same thing. Like that’s exactly the idea of us I think that’s if we can get that comfort level. Less formality and more real intimacy though because like the formality can kind of kill the. You need enough. Right. Yeah, you need enough but not too much. Well that that’s been the team of my, my videos lately, so the end of the sequence but yeah no no no that’s that’s what we’re converging on. Right. Like, like, there. And so, I don’t, I don’t like to do this and now it’s going to be on the internet, but, but I do think that the responsibility is on the women, because they set the table. Did you see Catherine’s talk I only watched the first like 10 minutes of the newest video where they’re doing a little recap. Yeah, it’s Nick, and then she said that. I wanted to send that to my wife that’s what my wife is doing. More or less, my wife has very little interest in all this talkie talkie stuff, but she, she makes the space possible, like the only reason I’m here is because my wife has provided that so yeah, more than true, it’s like completely necessary and we should find a way to Well, be thankful. She actually has committed to come on the show. This conversation. So, oh, wow. That’s gonna happen. Well, that’s definitely a good place to have the conversation go towards because that’s so cool that she, she flat out said that that was their goal. You know, and I think that’s to be hospitable. And like, that’s, that’s so taken so I like when Verveki brought up the word hubris recently, because I, that’s the opposite of hospitality is that hubris and that’s what I see is our society is very hubristic right now, not, not thankful for just how much sacrifice has gone into where we are now. That’s, that’s something you can’t have if you have a woman. I’m not appreciated. And that’s because we, we, we masculinized everything. And, and, and, well, no, but if the women don’t believe in themselves harder men supposed to believe in the women. Yeah, the most powerful thing my wife gives me is encouragement, my wife tells me I’m an idiot or something like that. Just, I’m ruined. But when my wife was like, the smallest little bit of encouragement from her outweighs anything anybody else can say, like, I don’t care about anybody’s compliments or anything. So long as my wife says like, So, well, what’s his name, tip does that very well. I wish I could compliment people that well if I could pick up something from tip. I want to be able to better compliment people like that, you know, that’s a good skill to have. I can make fun of people that quick that’s easy. Why can I do with the pumping up that. I like it. Now you’re right. Right. Well, the thing about my wife my wife knows that I was talking about. It’s good. It’s good to have awkward man. I’m really glad that I finally just sat down and talk to you with this. Good. Okay, so let’s, let’s make it. Put it to a close. Maybe we could make after more conversation but not in this moment. So, so yeah like, is there a lesson that you’re drawing from. Well no it’s just, I can finally kind of click some of the bigger picture. The beefs you guys have tried to articulate make a lot more sense to me, especially the, the framing of why putting things as a cost for failure that type of modality of explaining things. Maybe it is very good to come at it. Maybe explicating the same structure, but from such a different vantage that you don’t have to express those traps. Right, because, because the negative is a self justification. Right, oh, just move away from the back. That’s some hurts. It’s like, yeah, yeah we might move towards worse. You know, you don’t know where good is you can’t just move away towards that you have to move towards good to get away toward from that. So that makes a lot more sense now that I can articulate why that was why that would have been a thing that Because I just genuinely think it’s evil. Yeah, no that genuinely I see it because now when you’re in that perspective of not having access to award reward any incentive to for better mint. It’s torturous to tell someone that it’s me. This is this is Nishitani’s point, right, like you need to move to nihilism. And I’m like, no, fuck you. Like, no, don’t move through nihilism like, like there’s gonna be a whole lot of holes that are way bigger. And, and maybe you’re, you’re amazing Nishitani like your Buddha 2.0, but all the other people that get stuck in the holes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there, there you go. Maybe that’s the beef with most people explaining that view from nowhere because yeah that if you take one false step getting there, man. You can get stuck there forever. You can like put yourself. Yeah, I’m glad that there’s grace. Right. I’m glad that we can’t figure out the system all the way and that there’s grace. And that sometimes we can just be taken out. So, thank you for that. That’s mystery, right. Like mystery is the dragon of the apocalypse that you can. Yeah, I think I’ll take one of them but I’m not going to take on a bunch of those dragons only met one. Because you’re stubborn. Okay, so I want to invite everybody who’s still been able to maintain watching through all of these hours to share their takeaway. And hopefully enlightened Skyler into more perspectives, or even me. And, yeah, thank you for being an awesome guest. I think we kind of broke the format. But I hope it was all for good. And see you guys on the next time we’ll unfold the soul.