https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=rewk9ivPT5Y
All righty. Cool. Well, thanks again for your time. It’s a pleasure to be here again. Yeah. So I just maybe just to kind of set the context. As I mentioned, our theme in our curriculum this month is basically flow. It’s a course I call the zone. And it’s this whole season actually is in the area of in our curriculum. It’s basically we focus on the zone combat and mentoring. And so it’s kind of hard to explain how those relate really quickly, but they’re all part of what we call the north direction of our curriculum. So, anything in that area would be, you know, I have tons of questions for you obviously but anything that would be amazing so. But I’m happy to talk about that stuff so that’s great. Cool. And then I had a couple other questions that maybe I can weave in there somehow or just even start with them just because I might not include it in the actual recording part, but anyway. One thought I had was, you know, I have kind of been arriving at through your work, which, by the way, continues to be amazing. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, the, the language and I’m slowly getting this, this education through your material. And so I’m not academically trained, you know, I kind of arrived at this through a bottom up. And it’s amazing to me that the things that are resonating, and I feel like I can kind of understand and and stay connected with without having, you know, I’m kind of filling in the gaps and following the resources and I’ll go, you know, quickly read up on what it’s, at the same time it’s just, it’s, there’s this experiential level of getting some of these deeper concepts that is just so powerful and so validating so to hear that I’m very glad you’re that. So maybe to, to induce a little flow in our conversation. You know, make it more of a conversation I mean I’m glad just interview you as well. But if we could focus on, like, I’m not going to be able to hang with you on the academic philosophy level. That’s fine. That’s fine. The other areas I was thinking about is, you know, through experientially through flow flow experience, but also martial arts, you know, was another, I think, cross section that we have that you really need to kind of get into. Sure. Have you had any interviews with specifically martial arts much. Yeah, I’ve had a couple. Yep. Okay. Yeah, I’m still I gotta find those. So, anyway, so one of the things, a little bit of notes here. Maybe. Oh, one thing I wanted to bring up before I forget is your distinction between the language of training and the language of explaining. Yeah, very, very useful. And especially in teaching. And something that’s occurred to me, especially in the martial arts field is. And I think it’s other word, other places as well as basically the, a distinction between. I don’t know if it’s the language of learning and the language of application. You know, because often in martial arts there’s a there’s a big disconnect between training and real life. Right. Yep. Yep. Yep. Transfer. Very curious about some of the ways of representing more accurately, the usefulness of, of education, I guess, when it comes to application. So that’s something I’ve been trying to figure out how to communicate in a better way I’m getting some big insights. Just in the background, we might come back to that. Okay. I mean, that whole idea about I’ve been talking about that and some other discussions I’ve been having about transfer appropriate processing. I mean, I understand the application to real life self defense situations. But it and I can save your life and it can save the life of other people. So that that application, I think, is important. But that’s not the one that is my primary interest. So I really want to relate a story I related elsewhere but because I want I think this is a very important point and maybe it’s a good point to start with. So I’ve been doing Tai Chi Chuan and I use this term in both in both senses of the meaning. I was been practicing it religiously for about three years. I was in grad school at the time. And, you know, and I was getting a lot of it I would get into the flow state I go through the, you know, where you go the weeks where you were just burning hot and the weeks where you’re just absolutely cold and all that stuff and all this stuff’s happening and right and so I was getting a lot out of it. But something happened to me that really, like really struck me. And my friends came up to me, and they didn’t know I was doing this, by the way, because they were in grad school was, you know, and they said they came up to me and they said, What are you, what’s happening with you what’s going on. And I, you know, and when you’re in grad school you have you have the imposter syndrome everybody’s going to find out that you really don’t belong there right. Oh no, what is it. And I said what do you mean and they said, Well, you’re different now you you like when you writing and when you’re arguing you’re more balanced and you’re more open, and you’re more flexible. And I thought, Oh, and I realized, Oh, wow. And that is permeating my life and percolating through my psyche in ways that I’m not directly aware of. And that to me, that to me is that so if you’ll allow me, we can talk about two ways in which we can consider application. One is martial application. One is existential application. Now obviously I hope for the first, you know, and you know, it’s been there for me when I needed it under that. And I don’t want to talk about that. But the, the, the, the existential application to me is really important and now this connects to flow in an important way, because one of the issues that’s around flow is exactly the framing of your flow experience such that it will have existential application. The problem with many of our flow induction practices, video games are pertinent example, not all video games are going to be clear about that, but very many video games, get you to flow within a frame that does not permeate your life and does not percolate to the psyche. In fact, it leads to video game addiction, it leads reciprocal narrowing, and you get locked down. And one of the things I was comparing in my mind is video game flow induction and Tai Chi Chuan flow induction, and the way Tai Chi Chuan flow induction had that existential application. It was permeating my life, it was percolating through my psyche. And so the question I’m, the question I’m thinking about a lot right now is, what do we do to make sure that we are framing the flow experience such such that it has existential application. You and I have both been to kick and punch schools, right, that do not do that. I’m even suspicious that they’re not particularly good for the martial application, but they, that’s, that’s neither here nor there for what I want to talk about. Right now, what they clearly fail in the kick and punch schools is the existential application. And, and I’m reminded of the fact that Philosophia, Socrates and Plato, Plato means broad shoulders because he was a wrestler. It was, it was, it was assumed that you were always doing gymnastics, as well as doing Philosophia, right. And this is something I’ve been talking you know with Rafe Kelly about and other people. So, I would like to, I mean explore with you a bit, I mean, ask the questions you want to ask by all means, but this idea of existential application, the framing of flow, and you know, what that has to do with the connections, you know to the cultivation of virtue and character and wisdom. That’s the issue around these topics that I’m interested in right now and that I’m pursuing in my thinking. Excellent. Yeah, definitely resonate there. Yeah, I found, you know, I study a combat art you know it’s called Filipino Kali and Indonesian C-Lot. And, but I’m not a fighter, you know, my, my primary impact from those arts and training those arts is pretty much exactly what you’re talking about is a deepening in all areas of life you know this is transference. So, yeah, and I’m, I’m really, when it comes to looking for practices that are holistically, you know, bringing us deeper into our bodies and having this kind of transference into our other areas of life I think, you know I just keep thinking about the ecologies of practice. Yeah. Search you know looking for the, like you said there’s there’s different things there’s things that work in that way and there’s things that don’t. So, I think part of, I mean a huge part of this seems to be the manner in which it’s taught, you know, I think it’s up to the teacher in a way to be able to, I mean, I’ve been able to use, for example with the primitive skills, which also have a deep, a deep way of embedding you in your body and in the world. But pretty much use anything as a metaphor, you know, as a way of getting people to connect to layers of themselves and layers of their journey you know that they might not have done if they just built a fire, but you know you can allow it to be a symbol for all of these things and all and all of this meaning you know but so, and that kind of goes into the mentoring thing. That’s a big part of our work too. Well, the two come together I don’t have you saw any of the conversations I had with Nick Winkleman on the last night actually yeah yeah the language of coaching and, and how he, how he, how he uses enacted analogy and enacted metaphor. And in the coaching, right. And then that goes back to my original example because there was a way there’s there’s a weird enacted metaphor because in Tai Chi you’re definitely training, you know, sensory motor balance and flexibility, and you’re opening up awareness that that itself is even a metaphor, and that was transfer and that was the language people were using to describe my academic practice it was becoming more open more balanced more flexible. And it’s so there’s this idea about. There’s something in the practices, and then like I agree with you there’s something in the language of coaching or the language of mentoring that right that that makes makes it transferable. I’m not quite clear what it is. I mean I’ve been exploring it with Nick, you know, it’s like, why do it’s a combination of one thing is why do certain metaphors catch, so that the transfer occurs. And then the other thing is, why are certain practices good for transfer. I’m trying to, I’m trying to get some clarity on that is like, like, what are the things. What are the things that. So I have sort of some vague intuitions that what we need to do to make something transferable is it has to reach sort of to sort of some very fundamental overlap, because you know there’s the work of Tversky and others showing. I think I mentioned this last time that the machinery in the brain that we use for navigating physical space is the same machinery we use for navigating abstract and special conceptual space. And there’s something about right there’s like there’s, there’s. Sorry I’m stumbling here but you can tell I’m really reaching right there’s something about a core set of sensory motor, like metaphors that map like there’s sort of core sensory motor. The core cognitive grammar that’s exacted from the sensory motor and the metaphors tap that and a practice is good. If it is stereoscopic, if it pushes you down to that pushes you up and then it’s good mentoring if it gives you the metaphorical bridge, did that make any sense at all. It absolutely does. Yeah. And, you know, one thing. So I’d be curious what you think about this is, I guess a couple things if I can hold on to it. One is the. I just call it the level of resolution, with you focus and in terms of teaching. So I found that in learning and teaching all the practices that I do but I focus on what I would call the operational principle level of teaching, you know, so it’s something where, you know, you know if you, if you learn just a list of techniques. You are kind of stuck with a list of techniques you don’t right. It’s like a phrase book, rather than a grammar. Yes, yeah, exactly. So, however, if you if you have the why you have the underlying principle of, you know, this is about offset. This is about disrupting balance or this is about controlling range and stuff like that these, these principles that are present in all kinds of movement and all kinds of space you know, there’s a there’s a language around what I just referred to as principle, it’s a concept principle level of teaching and training that it’s like going back to your optimal grip concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really provides a place where I can kind of hold any of the, any of the context that I run into, I can hold, find, find, find the appropriate place to interact with them through the principle of the thing instead of through, you know, a specific tool or technique or trick that I’ve been taught, you know, Yeah, let me let me let me see right of our understanding. So I like this notion of an off of an opera operational principles that the term you use. Yeah, right. Or maybe it’s an operating principle I don’t know which one. Yeah, it was fun. Okay, great. And then what I heard you say, if I was to use a little bit more theoretical language is these principles are sort of meta optimal grip. What they are, and that’ll give you an analogy, which seems appropriate. What they do is they help you in different contexts find an optimal optimal grip. Is that okay. So what that reminds me of, because this is how I often, you know what I often describe. When you take a stance, the way I think of, you don’t actually use a stance in anything. The point about a stance is it’s like, if I want to go here, or here or here or here, this is the best place from which I can get to all those other places. You get people to see what’s going like to actually feel what’s going on in the stance, and then that gives them like it’s like a node, you know that gives them access so I think of the stances practicing your meta optimal grip. Is that close to what you’re talking about. Very much yeah so it’s like a reference point from which you can go well you call it multi apt right yeah yeah yeah it’s multi apt. So the. Yeah, another example another analogy would be in our, our, we have an angling system of strikes, you know, right 12 angles of attack or 12 angles of defense, whatever. And it’s like you know first people think these, and they are it’s interesting how at the beginning you have to learn a form you have to, you can’t just go to principle and magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you need a structure to experience. Yeah, the principles to flow through right so. So we started with 12 angles, and so we have angle one which comes out of this quadrant right here say, and really what I’ve kind of noticed is often it’s taught. I use the analogy of the, the old model of the atom, the kind of small solar system. Yeah, yeah, I’ve been using that analogy recently myself, go ahead. Okay, so, so the angle one to me is like imagining the atom as a solar system you know here’s where the electrons are, imagine what might come up in this place right. But in reality, and I don’t understand quantum physics but I get some like the, the reference of the probability field you know it’s nothing like those discrete particles. So the angle one could be anything that comes out of this space over here, but it gives you your body a way to map kind of onto that space potential. So, so anyway yeah, there’s a finding the. And I’ve been thinking about the structural functional organization in your language. I’m not sure if I can say that, but I think it’s a lot by what I mean by principles. I see. Yeah, like the design behind the thing you know the, yeah, the blueprint, but sooner anyway if if what I actually do is I’ll focus on, you know, there’s numerous important principles that always at work. Oh yeah and that would map into sort of structural functional organization. What it okay. Yeah. Yeah, so we were going on. Yeah, focusing on that level of, I just call it resolution like you could look at technique you go like a strategy but that’s a little too deep in a way. But I come back to principles and it seems to be whether I’m teaching someone to make a fire, you know, I go back to the fire triangle of friction, you know, heat, oxygen, and the hidden one there is structure as well you know having the fire has to have a shape that you know, that’s what you’re trying to do. But when people can relate to the skills and processes that way. They have room to kind of develop their own relationship, because they’re managing the principles rather than trying to solve a checklist you know, Yeah, I think you’ve got on Leo, Leo Ferraro, that’s where I got the analogy from you said you teach people the grammar rather than teaching them a phrase book. Right. You have to teach, you have to start by teaching them, like phrases and vocabulary, but eventually that you give you, there’s enough material within which you can teach them the grammar and then once they learn the grammar, then they get this amazing capacity to generate what they Yeah, that’s, that’s what has attracted me to your work. I know because I’m, I’ve trained myself to find principle based teaching. And as soon as I zeroed in on what you’re doing, I’m like, oh yeah, this is, that’s, that’s exactly right. Trying to find that, that, that meta optimal grip around the virtual engines, the structural functional organizations that, you know, well for me, what they do is they have an enormous capacity to draw evidence in for trustworthiness. And then they have an enormous multi actness of application. And when you, when I get that right, I like your metaphor, when I get the right resolution that in which that happens. That’s from, oh, we’re sort of answering the question I posed. That’s, that’s very helpful. Yeah, so when we get one of the ways of seeing if we found the right structural principles is that they should be able to draw in diverse evidence that makes them trustworthy. And then they should have, you know, diverse application multi actness that makes them powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, that’s, that does seem like kind of what you’re talking about. I mean, if you find because I mean, would you say, well actually I’d be curious on how you would define a principle, I can tell you what I’ve come up with but I see in the way we’re talking about it. Well, I mean, for me, if you allow me the language for me it’s a principle is a structural functional organization that affords deep understanding by doing exactly that, like it, you have a lot of convergence evidence for it. And then you have a lot of elegant application from it. Okay, cool. That’s, that’s what I was hoping to make that connection. Good. So how does that relate to two constraints I mean I just can you clarify that I mean I can sense it. Well, one of the ways in which you create a structural functional organization is, well maybe always, but I hadn’t thought about it that way. I mean, what you’re doing to get a structure is you have enabling constraints and selective constraints. So, a structural functional organization is the result of a process, I would argue, of complexification in which you’re different you’re simultaneously differentiating and integrating like like the way the zygote differentiates and integrates. And so, a structural functional organization is a result of complexification and the way you get complexification is you have to have processes that are differentiating introducing variation, and then processes that are introducing some selection on it. So even in like a drawing that’s a structure, you have, you have different parts in different dimensions or at least different locations in the same dimension. And that’s the differentiation. I’m doing a square here obviously. But then they’re integrated together like this, there’s selective constraints, they have to all touch each other. They have to all be straight etc things like that. So I think when you were talking about constraints we’re talking about the dynamics by which structural functional organization emerges, the dynamics of complexification. When we’re talking about structural functional organization we’re talking about, right, we’re pointing to the resulting pattern that causes the thing to behave as a integrated whole and makes it intelligible to us as an integrated whole. Does that help? Yeah, that’s really cool. I’m gonna have to think about that some more. You know, the, what you’re describing now I feel like this kind of has part of the solution as to why it’s so transferable is you’re describing. I mean focusing on principles is so transferable. You’re describing what, what isn’t it the process of learning itself, also the process of evolution itself. I would argue that I mean I think relevance realization is analogous, at least at one level of analysis is analogous to evolution and I think that’s, Siegler and other people have got evidence for that within child development. It’s what it’s at the heart of the deep learning algorithm. So yeah, I think it’s fundamental. The way I would connect that this is a book I’m working on with my son is that. So here’s where we again, and I’m not quite sure how the mapping works here. Maybe maybe explore together. So yeah, there’s the language of training there’s the language of explaining. And there’s also a distinction between knowledge and understanding. Again, they’re not completely distinct, they’re analytically distinct doesn’t mean they’re causally distinct. Right. But a lot of a lot of work’s being done on this right now. And I think a big part of pedagogy is, is about understanding, not the transmission of knowledge. Those aren’t the same thing. The way people talk about this, at least in the psychological literature the philosophy of science literature is understanding is graph is the ability to grasp the significance of what you know, which is different from knowing it. Knowing it is to grasp the evidence for it or something like that. Whereas understanding is to grasp the significance of it, and what we’ve been talking about with application is about more about understanding. And so, if we thinking about learning. There’s the learning of the unders, there’s the learning that gives us understanding and then there’s the learning that in which we acquire knowledge. Again, these are analytically and not causally distinct I want to keep saying that. But when when we’re concentrating on this question about application. I think we’re talking the pedagogy of understanding. We’re talking about, how do we get it so people understand what they know. No, then that can itself be something that they know, like it layers up recursively. Right, but. So I think it is about learning when we’re talking about, right, especially when we’re talking about the, the learning that leads to understanding. And I think the learning that needs to understanding has a lot more to do with the language of training. Explain matters, but training is typically the language we use in order to get people. So that’s why we use the metaphors we’re not giving people new propositions, we pretend to but what we’re actually doing is giving propositions that are not literally true. We give people. We give people propositions that change what they find salient and relevant, because we’re trying to afford understanding. So I think we’re talking more about the language of training. We’re talking about understanding. So let me give you an example. I’ll use your example. That the bore model of the atom. Why do we teach that to people. It’s false. We teach it to people, not because it’s knowledge, it’s not knowledge it’s false. And by definition if it’s false, it can’t be knowledge. We teach it because it helps people get an understanding that they need in order to grasp the significance of the true propositions we’re telling them about the atom. So interesting metaphorically true. Yeah. Well, I’m trying to. I appreciate what you said when you’re saying that but I wanted, I’m trying to. So I’m not pushing back on you, but I want to push back on that topic it’s it’s floating around right now metaphorical truth. And I kind of think that’s the wrong way of thinking of it. Can I have a moment about this or. So let me let me try and use something that’s analogous so I consider myself a non theist I don’t know if you’ve seen any of that, whereas I think I reject the shared assumptions of literalism, sorry, of atheism and theism, and I think we have to break out of that to come into an I’m not trying to argue that I’m just saying, that’s a move and there’s a lot of history around it, many mystical traditions converge on this, etc. I want to propose something similar with the idea of the non literal non literal is that which transcends the economy between the literal and the metaphorical. And, and so let me try and give you an example of what I mean. When I said that something that relevance realization. Right and evolution, they’re analogous, but, but that’s not just a metaphorical truth. They are both actually, and here’s where we can get back to our earlier discussion and we can bring in Aristotle, we have two processes that participate in the same principle. Right. Yeah, the principle of variation and selection in order to get a self organizing system to evolve to more appropriately fit its environment. Now is that was that a literal thing I said, or a metaphorical. Well, it’s, and I find this in the neoplatonic tradition is like, no, no, I’m not saying that this is like this. Right, I’m saying that these two things both participate in a higher thing that they belong to. I think a lot of this language, and some of it is just metaphorical I’m not denying that, but I think when we get into some of the deeper aspects of this, like we were talking about the generating understanding. I think we might want to think that sometimes when it’s deeper. We’re doing non literal, rather than metaphorical or literal. We’re, we’re not mapping between two domains, literally it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an identity mapping. Right, and then metaphorical it’s it’s a non identical mapping and what, and then there’s all this contour. But what about if both map into something else that they. They share a common ancestor. They share a common ontological ancestor. And that’s what we’re actually trying to point to, because I see that all the way through the neoplatonic tradition, and therefore their understanding of analogy is actually very different than our modern understanding of analogy. If you look at people like Nicholas of Cusa. So he would say you know you do this thing like this he’d say, so if I take a circle, and I make the cigarette circle bigger, the arc of the circle is getting more and more flat. Do you see that as the circles getting bigger. So if I have an infinite circle it’s also a straight line, which is right and which is a contradiction, and then he would say, and that’s how God is. These two things somehow participate in something beyond them. There isn’t a metaphorical relationship between the flat line and the circle. They both you triangulate through them to something that they both participate in. So I’m interested, I guess, sorry, I’ll try to bring this around. And how the application is not only sort of out into our lives, but how it can help us move up and down in our ontology, if that makes any sense. Would that be developmentally or ontology is meaning. Okay, ontology has to do with, sorry, I apologize. ontology ontology is the study of the structure of being the structure of reality. So when you’re moving up and down levels of reality. That. That’s what that’s what that’s what we’re, what I’m talking about. I think what’s happening in some of the applications is it’s not only permanent. That’s what I was trying to get when I was trying to use these two dimensions, it permeates through your life, but it also percolates between levels of your psyche goes down to very physical, but it also percolates up to the very spiritual. That’s what I’m trying to sort of point to. Yeah. Do you think it’s. So going back to the principal level of resolution, you know, looking at that level. Do you think it’s that there are specific principles that do that they’re actually going both those dimensions. Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly it. Yeah, I mean, that’s why we have all these cross symbols. You know, universal, because when we find so you know Aristotle talked about from neesis, which is your capacity to adapt to different contexts right, but he also talked about Sophia, which was your ability to To, to the various levels, right. And the point was to always have an appropriate dialogue. And I think that one way of understanding religion. I hope this doesn’t piss religious people off is the search for imaginal, you know, the Practices. Imagine the imaginary is in your, in your head, the imaginal you interact, you enact it. It’s a difference between a kid. And a kid. And a kid pretending to be Superman by tying a blanket around and moving around right so religion and what you can do is you can use the imaginal to augment reality. Like, like in a heads up display and right in a right or go Pokemon or the way the scientists use the data from the Mars rovers they color it and they mark it all up in order to see into it. So, imaginal augmented reality that allows us to search for principles that have both high and have extremely high vertical application and extremely broad horizontal application religion is the use of imaginal augmentation to search for exactly those principles. Wow, that’s a That’s very cool way to I don’t know. I mean, it’s at least, it’s at least a thought provoking proposal perhaps right. Yeah. You know, one of my influences has been because I haven’t been an academic philosopher but I kind of took the, what do you call it, the shortcut through Ken Wilbur, because he can integrate all of these things together. Yeah. A lot of people in your, your, your history. It was very very useful stepping stone for me, but is basically summarizes. It sounds like what you’re talking about in terms of depth and span like optimal depth and optimal span finding that. Yes. Right. I think, I think that’s right. I think we’re saying the same thing. As long as we understand that optimal grip and go back to Marla Ponte and plenty is is dynamic. There isn’t a place that is always the optimal grip. It is always relative to the task and the environment, and the person. Right. Dynamic like a frame of reference almost like a. Yeah, or, or, yeah, I think of a frame as something that, like my camera, you know, whatever I’m looking at through still can constrained by the frame basically it’s my. If you make it a moving thing if your camera can like adjust right as the right and you can do weird things with that like the Hitchcock thing, forget what it was called Hitchcock invented the thing where you pull back but so you’re moving you move the camera back but you focus in. So you get that weird thing with a person looks like they’re standing still but the background is changing behind them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. There was another piece to the, the, the way that principal language was answering one of those questions. I can’t remember what it was. I mean, I’m very interested in how you are. I mean, you’re doing this ecology practice I remember what we talked about last time. And you’re trying to mind mine, to my understanding, I see you. So, the martial arts, right, can do this to a certain degree but they then they need to be nested into a practice that has more vertical reach and horizontal reach right and it’s my understanding you correctly, is that I’m really, I’m really interested in that nesting issue as well. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think my, where that was the, I call it a container that kind of holds that that was, yeah, yeah, yeah, give me was through the model of what call it the directional model or the, they used to call the medicine wheel, wheel. Yep. Yep. And, man, I’ve just found that. Now actually, I’m just curious, would that be, I can kind of consider that a psycho technology would that be appropriate. I think so. I mean, is it, is it a socially standardized practice that can be taught and internalized and broadly applied, and it alters your information processing your framing of problems that for me that’s a psycho technology. So yeah, I think it fits that category, and it’s been, man, such a useful tool and what I found is, again, looking at it from a principal level is that at the principal level, it itself, you know, I, I ended up forming a relationship with it that I discovered, I’m like, wait, this is, this is actually patterning my mind and my body and certain like this is, yeah, not just a tool that I have hanging on the wall that I go reference you know this is something that affects how you perceive the world. It’s internalizable that’s also a defining feature of a really good psycho technology. And what it does is it seems like it allows you to perceive things, similar, relatively simultaneously in various dimensions, you know, and you’re always looking for kind of like, well yin yang would be a, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, would be a binary. Yeah, I think that’s more complex than that but it’d be a binary example of that right where you’re, you can kind of sort reality through these two polarities, and their relationships, and so the medicine we all, you know, that I mostly use is eight directions, but often arrows, so it would be, it represents a four directional. I’m sorry, two dimensional four directions. And then a, this, a third dimension gives you a third axis basically x y z axis. Right. And then. So that gives you a 3D kind of experience with this thing. So then you have a, you know, so you have two dimensions or other dimensions. And then you have the crosshairs which gives you the four domains of life or four domains of whatever you want to look at. Right. And then you have the depth through that 3D axis. Right, right, right. So that gives you, technically six directions with center being seven, you know, right, right, right. And I found that interesting by the way that a lot of things organized around seven. Yeah, gold traditions, and wondering if that has anything to do with the kind of the bandwidth constraint of seven plus or minus two. That was one of my hypotheses about that we might have just discovered yeah we can remember seven things how interesting that you know we can hold on to seven things at once. Yeah, if they’re properly chunked. We now think the the base numbers actually for four, you can sort of hold for for on chunk, like for separate chunks. Right. Okay. But if you typically what you did is that they’re, because the seven are not completely, they’re more like a telephone number, because people used to get a number into a group of three and a group of four right here. Right. Yeah. So, well that’s that’s actually interesting so that would bring up a lot of the fours that we see as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s right. So anyway, what I did is I use that as a container, and the four, the seven arrows. What do they do for you. Yeah, please, please, please. So, actually let me make this simpler. We just take the four. Four directions that on your screen. Yeah. You know that gives us four different dimensions and what I use is, man, there’s this is so interesting, the, the four. Okay, sorry, I’m trying to convey too much. This has a lot of meaning for me it’s really a lot. I mean I think what it is is a lot has been a lot has converged and compressed into it, and you see it having lots of application. So I get that I get that. Yeah, so just give me a sec so please. So one axis basically what I, what I did was one of my teachers, through the Packer School basically this whole lineage of primal skills, basically, kind of distinguish these four archetypes of these four skill sets of humanity, these four needs, essentially, that those archetypes are representing and the skills are answering. And they were basically tracking survival, healing and combat. Okay. Did they map onto the four quadra. Yeah, yeah. So, tracking. Right. Survival healing and combat. Right. Okay. So that’s, that’s the way I organized them now already these dimensions these directions have have a representational meaning loaded they’re like pre loaded. The medicine will provide. I’ll explain that in a sec. I don’t know how far you want to go into this but I’m, I’m happy I want to go quite far, I want to understand how this works. Okay. So, so this, these are all what I’ve, what I found is these are all chunked relatively at a similar scale of resolution, so right survival and combat for another word, in other words are are comparable in kind of how they, the things that they bring up in your mind are similar. If I said, you know, I don’t know firearms and survival that wouldn’t quite work you know what I mean. So you want to find these these these paths or these these directions, these themes that are relatively similar in in wholeness. Right, right. They hold. So these are. And these can be found today these are still represented in as the primal arts of humanity. We have tracking would be like the media, the people that are information gatherers. Right, right, right, right. Scientists yourself. Survival would cover all the living needs the, you know, shelter water fire food. You know, mechanics, those people healings obviously the infrastructure for healing and then our defense and protective structures right so right so these things are all still with us but if you want to my kind of, I don’t know metrics or one of my, my points of reference is what I just call the primal human level so it’s primal in another sense so there’s obviously the primal, which is essential original fundamental that kind of primal and that’s right. That’s what I look for in terms of principles for teaching. Right, but there’s also primal in terms of human the way we think of it that way which would be kind of our longest lived way of being, which we can assume is hunter gather. So, a small group of people, relatively low technology, simple technology, and that scale so. And that’s a lot of where I learned. That’s the level of skills that were passed on to me through this kind of training so that’s kind of another reason I really that really became important to me and it seems to be a really good reference, I keep taking stuff back to that and like well, let’s look at this in a more abstract way. I mean everybody has that wired into their evolutionary heritage in the brain. So it’s, it’s a point at which you can touch all people, which people can all connect. There’s primal in another sense. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, and we have the most momentum from that programming I mean we’ve lived that way for how long you know compared to how we are now. So, okay so here’s the four domains. This is what I call the hard skills or the science of the primal arts. No. And each of them is a life path if you really wanted to pursue it obviously. Right. But, um, now they, they. So I’m just going to connect these right outside of that as a supporting skill set. What I found, I kind of added this second layer. So, anyone that’s interested in one of these skills or arts. Let’s say tracking for example, when you begin to get into tracking one of the things that you pretty quickly run into is yourself. Because of the nature of training, you know, right, especially tracking because it’s around how you perceive the world and perception you run into your own limitations and your own biases and all that stuff really quickly. Right. So, and this isn’t like literally doing the hard skills because you’ll be out with someone and be like well they’re seeing stuff I’m not seeing stuff what am I missing you know and then this kind of right right right right. That’s cool. So it’s happening. So, as a supporting, and I refer to this as the primal journey in terms of training as we go around this through the seasons. We do all these all the time, but we start in the springtime with tracking for example. And now I’m now I’m referring to the medicine wheel again because the east over here. Yes, spring, and that metaphor summer, fall winter. And so there’s a lot of other meanings embedded in in that behind. The scenes in the medicine wheel itself, and maybe I should. I’d like to just explain one more layer and then I’ll go explain medicine will a little bit more. Yeah, just a container. So, so he had the science or the skills level of training of focus, which is awesome and great and, and these are very important skills, blah blah blah, but they are. You only can go as far as in them in each direction as you are able to go. So, when you run into yourself and you become the block, often people will either just kind of quit or they’ll lose interest or they’ll get stuck or something like that so what there seems to be needed as a corresponding training that that deals with the basically developmental learning process itself. Right. I just put another color, but so supporting that on the outside is another series of training. And I have classes that correspond to each of you so the, the class over here that corresponds to to tracking I just call the path, and it’s, it’s about kind of stepping onto a path and how to. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. I see the metaphor transfer. Yeah, the freedom, freedom through constraints also shows up there. And then we get into the tools in survival which is all about the practices that help support the journey of nature connection and so it’s you know, meditation and set spot and journaling right right right. I have a class here, I don’t, this sounds pretentious but I call it the way which is really about the, the way of transformation, the process of overcoming and doing the work. And finally, the zone, which is the one I’m actually kind of right right right, which is about kind of the peak experiment experiences and kind of the payoff, if you will, journey, right. And then it cycles back and it doesn’t cycle but it spirals right so it’s always. And so people are always doing training at these two levels, like they’re they’re they’re doing that in your diagram the inner circle, they’re moving around that in sort of a pedagogical program where one stage of towards the next. And then they’re also doing this higher level thing at the same time. And they’re doing them in parallel is that the idea, something like that. Something like that you know it’s it’s a little more organic it’s kind of the, I just let people get attracted to whatever they get attracted to. I see. And then that becomes funny thing is because I, there’s also this. Right, which is, I jokingly say I just teach one thing and, and what I what I really teach us how to journey. Right, right. And so it all, it all comes back to that and it just depends on where people’s interests and passions are as to what they get kind of pulled into. So, but yeah simultaneously those are those are operating so you have the skill development, but you also have the learning development that supporting the skills. Right, right. Then there’s one more layer which is when I contact you about know thyself which is a, I would say almost like the. I call it the tribe series it’s about the people it’s about human, human to human relations so it’s know thyself team dynamics, creating community, and then mentoring leadership. And so those are kind of a continuum as well, the idea of being if we have individuals that are, you know, seeking to know themselves and seeking wisdom. What do you know when those come together they make really good teams. Right. Yeah, right. Teams are actually a functional actual unit within communities that get stuff done you know, and then communities often need some sort of a way to preserve and transmit knowledge we have the elders or the mentors that are the ratcheting and generation. So, and that’s not my invention I mean that’s kind of kind of my distillation but it’s all comes from you know this ancient model of culture, really, you know, right, right. And so, So this is actually, I mean this is in the language, this is imaginal. This is not an image in your head this is an, like this is, this is one you’re using to organize your experience of the world and organizing your development within it. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, you know what, to such a degree it’s really interesting that I’ve been doing this for about like this for probably 15 years, and I found that month to month. My relevance realization like what I’m sorting for in the world, actually is highly. It just, it just organically starts to teach me through that lens because I spent so many done so many reps on this. So, this like what do you know this month if I didn’t get a lot of insight on mentoring and leadership without even trying you know. Right, right. Yeah, it’s my calendar. So, no, but I mean the church had a church calendar. The church had a liturgical challenge calendar. I mean the Christian Church in general, different points of the year you did you you were you moved to different and sort of mental states different frameworks. Very much like that and you cycled around. There’s a, there was the liturgical year that was supposed to be different from the profane year. Wow, that’s really interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, creating these cycles also goes back to sort of a pre axial way of thinking that the cyclical cosmos, as opposed to the linear product, the linear progress through history. Yeah. Can I do you want me to explain a little bit more about the medicine wheel, how we doing for time but I only have about five more minutes actually unfortunately but, but this is really cool. Let me. This will actually tie into one more question I have for you so let me take these. So to me that strikes, the way you keep learning from it, it’s become sacred to you. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And part of the sacredness, going back to the principal conversation was being able to finally, because I learned it as a form you know I learned it like here’s, here’s what the directions mean, you know, in our language we call that like a coyote teaching which means it’s not complete, you know there’s more to it as a mystery. Yeah. And what I’ve found is it becomes kind of like we’re talking about with martial arts, the projecting those 12 angles. And you can kind of see the world as a possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, same thing. That’s exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, yeah. So this, this question mark here I’ve learned to. It’s just life itself it’s just the unfolding context of whatever’s happening. You have these four archetypes that you’ve trained within you that basically can catch and respond to most human needs. And so depending on what’s going on you can kind of move into action. Yes, like the stance, like the stance. Yeah, yeah, that’s very cool, Ben. That is very cool. Yeah, it’s been pretty amazing so. One of the things I found. And this is one question I wanted to ask you was the pattern that shows up here is a, you know, there’s the points I drew on here, you know the different direction, but traditionally like so you have, you know, in the east. There’s also it corresponds with sunrise. Yeah, of course, with springtime, it corresponds with right so you get these different. Yeah, you’re layering a lot of things on. That’s what I mean, non literal. They’re not at, they’re not metaphors for each other, they’re all participating in some deeper on principle. Yeah. And so, well here’s and here’s what I’ve just, you know, in spending time with this what you develop is a connection to a relationship, not just the thing so it’s no longer about spring or, or sunrise or anything. It’s the dotted line in between is the connective. Yeah, exactly. That’s what I mean by the non literal. That’s exactly what I’m pointing to. Okay, so that that thread, and I’m just calling it the relationship, you know, where the correspondence itself actually becomes for lack of better words in our language and public and energy you know like it’s. Right, it has a life of its own. Yeah, it has its own yeah, and that thing becomes universal you can now map that onto anything right that is wickedly cool. Yeah. So, oh wow I’m so glad we did this. Yeah, so my, my question for you is, our relationships. Real things, because I’ve been experiencing life in a way that I’m starting to see relationships is almost being fundamental if not, at least simultaneously. I think they are I think these non literal these non literal relationships these patterns. Right. I’m not I’m not. I’m not totally clear or absolutely confident about what I’m about to say, but I recommend you reading Thomas. Thomas, yeah, I think it’s Thomas more. Anyway, it’s more than or is it Timothy more any last name more than his book hyper objects. And he’s from right. He’s a philosopher of the realism and he’s he’s he’s a sort of deep ecologist philosopher. So, he talks about things like global warming hyper objects that they’re right that they’re, they’re not at human scale, but nevertheless they’re real and they’re not sort of spatial templarly Brown, and it’s right and they, what we never experienced them. Right in their total we only experienced what he calls manifestations of them. And I think our ability, I think one of the things we do with distributed cognition this is something I’m pursuing with Dan Chappie is we use distributed cognition either synchronously between people are di chronically across traditions, right, we use distributed cognition to track using your language hyper objects. And I think those non literal patterns that we’re talking about now the layering patterns that that again permeate right and percolate. So, hyper objects in the in this sense, things like evolution and global warming are hyper objects in a really important way they have a reality that is neither the reality of mathematical principles like equals MC squared, nor are they the kind of reality we attribute to spatial temporal objects, but they’re nevertheless real, because if you don’t believe evolution is real you’re in a real mess explaining how you got here, and things like that, right. Right. And what he is sorry for interrupting just one more point, because it goes towards something we were talking about learning the wisdom, the discernment to get that right framing that allows you to get the right optimal grip resolution, so that you can relate to the of the hyper objects is something that. Well, I think he’s arguing, we need to do for example in order to address the ecological challenges like global warming that we’re facing right now. So I recommend his book to you hyper objects. We’ll check that out for sure. Thank you so much. Very cool. Well, um, let’s talk again soon. I want to continue this conversation. And I would really like to put this on voices with for vacu you could send me a copy of this. Yeah, thank you so much john for your time and what thank you Ben that this was so much food for thought, I want to, I want, like, I want to do more, because I like the way this moved from you interviewing me to us dialoguing together. I’d like to do another one soon where we continue that process. If that would be okay with you. Of course, yeah, yeah, I’ll kind of leave it up to you and your schedule but I’ll put out a reminder for you. Right on. Thank you. Have a good day. Take good care.