Pride - Diego - Embodying the Logos (v5qm09uR3Uc)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=v5qm09uR3Uc

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of embodying the Logos. Today my partner is Diego who was so nice to drive me all the way to Germany and back after letting me sleep at his house for a night. So yeah, like we have history. Yeah, that was a work-alove-a-drive. And we’re gonna make history. Like I didn’t tell you guys but like yeah, he had a hurt foot. It didn’t get better after driving. Let’s just say that way. But today appropriately we are talking about pride which was definitely happening with him driving with that foot. So yeah, Diego, tell us about pride. Like what is pride? Yeah, great question. It’s coming up with definitions so it’s difficult. But yeah, I would think maybe well, pride has to do with intellect and has to do with conviction, right? This has to do with the conviction of setting up, putting forth a proposition and kind of assuming it’s complete. And so I think that pride is when trying to put something forth as truthful gets corrupted and slips from what is really true virtues and beautiful. I forget the three good things but yeah, so I think it’s like it’s a corruption of something that is trying to say be something good but then it just slips and then it becomes this demented thing. So I really I like to think I think that the easiest way for me to think of pride is when I think of a totalitarian regime. It’s like I know all the answers. I have a perfect box. These are the things that need to happen. I’m gonna plan the economy, for example. All the things. This is the price of everything. This is how the system, the dynamic complex system needs to work. I know all the answers and then it’s hell. So there’s something about that. So there’s about I think the main thing would be the putting forth of the proposition and assuming it’s gonna be correct. Okay, so I like this degenerates into hell, which I think I think we want to bring in for Reciprocal narrowing in here. It’s like, there’s this idea and then you get stuck in it and it reinforces itself, right? Like it feeds on itself, which means that it’s self-referential. Like I think that’s a term that we’ve been thinking about in our group and the self-referential nature, right? Whether that’s just you referencing yourself as an authority or you have a system that references itself as an authority. It has to corrupt because like it’s not everything. So there’s always the outside that’s going to impose upon it and entropy will ensue. So the problem with all of these definitions is that I think pride is deviating from the good in some sense by and then this is where you come in, right? By thinking that you know better, right? Because that’s the only reason. But it’s all in relationship to the good, right? And then well, what is the act of pride? Well, basically it’s seeing the lesser good as the total good. I think that’s where we can start off. Like how do you feel about that? Yeah, so indeed there is something like, because indeed there are goods, right? And you are aiming towards them and you are enunciating them and also you get the problem of the positive feedback from the crowds, for example. And this happens a lot. You do things that are, you enunciate your proposition, you say this and you show excellence in something and people are like, oh, nice. And then that’s also intoxicating in its own little demonic way. But indeed there is an act of placement of, hey, this is the top thing, right? And then it’s not. And therefore there’s the error in definition there. And I must say that also just like the ego problem slips right in, I think that for me it’s been, it’s a constant struggle when something well done is done in a way. But yeah, we are so quick to, well, it comes from such a good part in ourselves. We favor things that are good and we favor people that are doing things that are good. But in that we can also foster things that are not. It takes a lot of self-control to kind of dig, digest that in a healthy way and not let that get to your head. So let me rephrase it because you’re saying it’s coming from a good part of yourself. And I would say it’s coming from an excellent part of yourself, not from a good. Because to excel means to be, to perfect something, right? And good implies that there’s a moral quality to that. But like there’s plenty of things I can perfect that aren’t good. And we would still feel good about those, like that. Because in some sense, right? Like we’re basing ourselves on the feedback, right? So like we’re using a way of judgment and then we, well, you just go with the biological system, right? We get a reinforcement through endorphins or, what’s the other one? Anyway, we get these reinforcing structures, right? That give us this idea that we’re good at something. And like we are good at something, right? But we’re not accounting for where what we’re doing is aiming at, right? So like the thing in and of itself is not good. Right. Yeah. But things become, again, engaging and noteworthy. And they do that in the proportion in which they echo something good. So that’s the, it’s the echo of what is good that makes them pop and the virtuosity, for example. You say there’s like virtuosity and there’s excellence in something. And that echoes something beautiful or true. Or like the skill is true, but maybe the direction is not correct. But there are components of it that are beautiful in their own way. And I can think of more than one example of a very, very morbid and very well executed tyranny that I’ve experienced. It’s like, wow, like you need to be an expert to get this good at a terrible thing. It takes a genius to do this. But indeed. But it’s, but yeah, where does it come from? Where does it come from? I think, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head on the placing and that you know better what to place first. And I think that’s a thing where it starts. So like this thing becomes the first thing. And to make it a little bit less, yeah. Go ahead. I like the direction that you’re taking with where does it come from, right? But I think you’re coming from the wrong side. It’s like, no, like it’s the default state. It doesn’t come from anywhere, right? Like we have to pick something and pursue it. Like we’re bound to that. Like there’s no other option. So it doesn’t come from anything. It’s like, where does the grace come from that relieves us of that? That’s the question. Not where the ego is coming from, like because the ego is default state. Yeah. Yeah. And how to act in relation to that, right? And that’s always tough. So yeah, I just find it so bewildering when I hear or read about people that are able to do that and casting aside that glory actually. So again, because pride and glory, I think, for me are at least correlated in some way. It’s like the wanting to accumulate glory for yourself. And it’s so hard to do that continuously. Like I just find it such a trap. All right. So where do you want to take this? Where shall we go? Well, I think it’s interesting that you bring in glory, right? So because what is glory? Well, glory is like an immaterial success, right? It’s the recognition of something well done or something, right? And there’s an implicit, not so much status, but validation, right? Like, justification in there. Like, I think glory also means heavy. I think we talked about that, actually, right? But I think in Hebrew, it means heavy or weighty. And so it brings weight, right? Like it assigns weight. So if we’re looking at reasoning or whatever, right? No, not reasoning, rationality, right? Like we’re rationing things, right? And so if something is weighted, it counts different in the way that we ration. Yeah, it tilts the scale. Yeah. Right. And then I think, so we’re talking in the context of pride. And like, I think we kind of pointed out how it’s this trap, right? Like this, this entropy of the soul or something, right? Like, that we have to counteract actively. And you were proposing this idea of, well, like, I want to pursue something in the world. And how do I know that it’s not going to be in vain, right? Like, like seeking for vain glory. Yeah. And yeah, like that’s, that’s a real trap, right? You can, you can see that with, well, a lot of people who get famous, right? They, they get stuck. And I actually went, went to Bible study, and we were talking about Jesus getting to 30 before he started doing his stuff. Right. And it’s like, well, what’s that about? Well, he became an adult, right? Like, like, he finished his development. And then he got tested, right? Like, like, it’s not, it’s not only that, that he matured, like he got tested. So when, when we’re talking about people who get trapped, we can look at soccer players, artists, that generally getting young, or you, you, you put things in, in people like, like a dictator or, or a spiritual leader, right, who connect their identity close to the truth. Right. So if, if you’re like, okay, I’m bringing in the kingdom of God effectively with, like, I’m, I’m the prophet of, of goodness, right? And all of these people see the goodness in me, then that’s easy, that easily allows you to justify your actions, right? Because, because there’s this idea of the group validating your perspective. So I think, I think that’s two angles that you can get stuck. What do you think about that? Yeah, yeah, indeed. So the person, so the stealing your own personality, and that recognition of, like, hey, you’re not supposed to take on this, don’t do this at home side of things, like, hey, you need to really be careful. And you’re dealing with, you know, powerful substances. So you need to steal yourself before you go out there to the world preaching, right? And before you go and preach to the world as well. What, what, yeah, what, what’s, how’s your house look like? Is your room clean? You know, so that’s, that’s a tough one. That’s a really tough one. And, and, but it is also relieving. It’s like, okay, no, I have things actually immediately next to me that I can get, I can do it. That’s, that’s really like, well, how do you say it reduces chaos. So, so that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that really helps. But yeah, the assuming a personality and getting the recognition is invalidation for people is really a tough problem. Because you want to be doing things that echo good and resonate in people. And we get, again, our, so much of our sanity is echoing between people and saying, Hey, are we, are we, are we doing good? Are we being rejected? Are we being accepted? Are we being invited? Are we so, we’re so social that, and these are the tools that we use to kind of see whether we’re airing or we’re doing well. And if you get, so how to rescue the good within a misplaced, well, how to, how to, how to properly rescue the lesser good and put it in its proper place and enact that. The enacting part. So you, you, you were touching on something I’ve been talking about a couple years back, and there’s three frames, right? So there’s you and yourself. And, and that’s basically narcissism or like egocentrism, right? So the way that I judge things is by how I do them. And then you, you kind of level up, right? Like this is where you give validity to the outside world, right? Where you use the social feedback to instruct you in what’s right and wrong. And well, some, some people never take that step, right? Or some people got stuck on that step, but, but at eventually you need to end up with the transcendent, right? Like you need to be validated by, by, by the truth, right? By, by. And that step, I don’t, I don’t think many people can make because like that’s ineffable literally, right? Like, like, like how do you connect to the truth? Well, that requires you to do all, do all sorts of crazy things that aren’t really natural, right? Like, like they don’t, they don’t really flow from your social interactions unless you’re in an environment, social environment where that activity is actively stimulated. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we can, we can count those spaces, I think probably in the world. That’s not many of those. Yeah, indeed. So that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s very difficult. And yeah, the, the, well, I think I remember talking to a friend, I was trying to explain to him the, the idea about thinking about yourself as a community. And that was really helpful to him. And, you know, think of yourself as, as, as a community and you can think of yourself with like the past you and the traumatized kid you and the you now and the you in two weeks and the you in five years and that you are also a community and that, that really can be very helpful to, to help also navigate some difficult moral situations. But yeah, the, the, the relation to, to the transcendent is, is just so, it’s so, it’s so paradoxical sometimes when I, when I, when I read part of the gospels, like again, so much, so much of the, of the, of the, of the actions of Jesus are so unexplainable. They’re so paradoxical. They’re so surprising and they go against the grain in so many ways. It’s like, okay, how, how to, how to, are you, how to know that you’re carrying out a just inquisition versus, you know, you’re just making a, making a fool of yourself and actually making things way worse. And, and, and again, there is an adventure element anyway, if you’re going to say what you think, without filters, then you’re going to get into some trouble and that’s going to be fun. But yeah, to calibrate that, how do you know, how to, how to keep the relationship alive? Well, yeah, there’s more going on, but, but there’s definitely, there’s this idea where I actually defined religion really early in my, in my thinking as that which transcends paradoxes or allows you to transcend it, right? Cause like I’m, I’m, I’m with Mark on this one. We’ve been talking about this a lot lately. I don’t think paradoxes are real. I think, I think they’re just a recognition of, of a wrong perspective. Like, I think that’s the, that’s the, that’s the recognition of, of a wrong perspective. Like when you run into a paradox, that means that you’re thinking about the world wrong. Like that, that’s just, and so if you, if you, if you read Jesus and you’re in a paradox, that means that you’re not relating to the text properly. Like that, that’s just, and I think that’s why the text exists, right? To, to let you interface with, with these situations so that you don’t have to go through them in real life, right? That you can make that transcendence without having to do the suffering because Jesus did it for you, right? That’s the fact of the, and then, right, like if you, if you, if you take this idea seriously, right, and Peterson has been talking about this, that means that everything can eventually unite in one, right? Like there’s no contradictions, right? And, and if, if you don’t have contradictions, you can live your life authentically, right? And truthfully without an issue, right? And, and, and you’re not in pride. But, but if, if we look at this framing, right, as these parts of you, right, and these paradoxes, right, like, because that means that there’s two parts that are in conflict. And this is where you get the opponent processing, blah, blah, blah, that stuff, right? It’s like, that’s people who are looking up at the paradox instead of down onto it. Because if you transcend it, it’s resolved. Like these, these pieces can be in harmony. But if, if you’re below it, you’re like fighting, right? Like there’s war. And, and then there’s a war in you. And then if you choose a side, you’re prideful. No, yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, you make me think of, of the, the, maybe this is the, the, the, it sounds like, like faith to two inches deep, but you know, like the people, you know, that, that say, I have a child of God, you know, and then that’s so, when are you a child of God? So to what extent are you a child of God? And you should treat yourself with some, you know, I wouldn’t say respect, but like, it’s more like with reverence, with reverence. Exactly. Yeah. So what, what degree of reverence do you, do you deserve? And to the other side, when I read anything about the Bible, it’s like, it just makes me so self-conscious about my own iniquity. It’s constant. It’s just like, it’s, it’s after, it’s just so, it just makes you go down to the basement and beyond. And you can, and even in, in the writing, I’ve been reading Augustine and this guy was still super aware of after years of living in, in, in like a, well, like, like a monk that relinquished everything, which is what he was. He’s still, you know, like, I still have this thought and I know that this thought is sinful. And it’s like, and he’s still lashing out of self and, and, and, and, and going and being such a extreme judge to every little part within him that is still not aligned. And it’s like, how do you get there? That’s insane. It’s like, and, and, and because if I think about it again, superficially, and probably because I’m doing it wrong, it’s like, okay, no, I think I’m doing certain things. I think I’m doing all right. I have an idea about them, but then probably that’s the, that’s where everything already went bad, that it already took, took a wrong turn. Having some of the respite that, okay, some things seem to be, you know, socially validated or something like that, or they seem to be going, okay. I don’t want to, I don’t want to be in a place that I think I’m a, I know, or better, or that I must, I could be some sort of, yeah, role model. I just, that fills me with anxiety because it feels, because it, because in the one hand feels natural and that’s scary. And I don’t think that’s, that should be, yeah. But it’s, it’s, it’s John Rakey over and over, you know, like the one who says he, they’re, why is they’re not, you know, that’s just not, that’s not how that works. So yeah, I, I, I, I wonder how to, how to be aware of your shortcomings while still edifying that which is edifying. So, so continue to, to foster the things that are just echoing things that are positive. So the things that are part of the good, how to continue feeding them, nurturing them, nourishing them, while staying conscious, right? Why is it a contradiction? Are we back into a paradox? Yeah. Oops. It’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s, it’s not a paradox. I mean, and the answer to my question, I think is something like prayer, you know, it’s, it’s like, well, you, you, you ponder it and, and you, you, you think about it daily, right? And, and you, and you, and you try to measure things, you put ratio and religion or you put things in their place in relation and context and you measure them and you, and you, and you try to cast away the things that are not worthy continuously. But yeah, it doesn’t make any less hard. It doesn’t make it any less hard. Okay. So there’s a bunch of things going on here. Like, I don’t know if I want to go into what you were just saying, because I think we started off, we started off, and I hope I’m not like shitting all over Agustin at this point, but when you’re like, Ooh, this is sinful, right? Like, especially if you want to stamp it out, like, like the way that you described it, right? That is prideful. Yeah. It’s like, like you’re, you’re going to find your own sins. Like what the fuck. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know if I agree. What’s the problem? Right. Like it’s like, like, like, why do you do these things? Because you attend to them. Right. Like, why do you attend to them? Because you like faith. Like, that’s it. Like, I don’t think it’s more difficult than that. Yeah. Well, the glory part is an aversion of it. Um, yeah, it’s, but I do think that we, like, we are able to at least identify the things that are part of the things that are wrong with us. Of course, we’re not a perfect judge and we, we can fall into the self. Um, I’m not saying that you can’t do it. Like, like you, you, you can see things that are wrong with you, although like, I’m going to quote Paul Van der Gly here and say, we cannot look at ourselves. Like we need others to look at ourselves. And that’s not a good way to look at yourself because it’s not reliable. Right. So yeah, you can find the flaws in yourself. Maybe. But Dan, can you solve them? Do you need to find the flaws in order to solve them? Because I don’t think so. I think actually that’s why we can be saved because we don’t need to see the flaws. We need to follow the straight and narrow. Yeah. So, so, so reach out to the ineffable and the true and the good and the beautiful. I just focus on that and just try your best to to act and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and worship in that direction. Right. And, and, and, and like, how do I know if I’m true or not? Right. Like I think we talked about this before, like, well, I know that I’m true because it, like, I can, I can be with, like, I can experience the knowledge. Right. Like, like, I’m in it. I, like, it flows through me. I speak it right. Like, like, I speak not my own words because they get given to me. Now they get given to me because I have eaten them before. Right. Like I, I have taken them into me. I have digested them. Right. Like I have spread them around and put them in the right place. Right. Which I have done for some things I have not done for others. And I have recognition about the things that I have digested and the things that I haven’t digested. And that doesn’t mean that I’m wrong about the things that I’m having, I haven’t digested, but I’m not truthful because I cannot be true because I don’t have that capacity. Right. Like I don’t have the skill to be in that relationship, even if the relationship is propositionally correct. And in other things, I do have the capacity to be in relationship. Right. And like maybe my relationship is incomplete. Right. Like maybe I’m, I’m lacking, I don’t know, like a dimension in that relationship. Right. Like then I have a partially correct relationship. Well, you see that with a lot of materialists, right. Like they, they miss a part, part of the quality of the relationship. Right. And that leads eventually into nihilism. Right. But there’s a, but that doesn’t mean that they’re completely false. Right. Like they’re still capable of functioning. Right. And so there’s, there’s a horizontal truth, right. Which basically allows you to engage with what’s in front of you. And then there’s a vertical truth that allows you to relate to the problem on every layer of reality. And when you, when you start applying the horizontal truth on the wrong layer, then we’re right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. And that’s, that’s the wrong placement issue. Right. Yeah. And so interesting what you said. So about the digestion of like ideas that, that you are kind of echoing or you’re, you’re, or you’ve kind of processed, but you are in a way after you’ve chewed on them, you, you can bring them back to, to bear. You bring them forth. Yeah. It’s, I think that that is the quality. If I, if I, from what I just, yeah, read on, on, on, you know, obviously it was more or less that was his behavior or his stance was something like that. It’s like all these things that I have, all these gifts, they are, they are nothing. If they’re not being used to, to aim upwards. And if I’m not, you know, using all these things that I’ve received, all these things that have been given, and they’re not being in service of the truth, then they are just, you know, toxic weapons or they’re just, you know, things to, to, restoration. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. And that, and that is, it’s, it sounds so foreign, like encountering the text is so intense because you, you, maybe it’s just because I haven’t dealt with enough very outspoken Christians. Maybe, maybe Paul Van der Kley should produce more videos. But, but it’s that, that, that so outwardly, well, writing down worship, basically is what it is. It’s just singing praises constantly. It’s, it’s so intense. It’s like, Oh my God, it’s so foreign. It’s like I’ve read, you know, whatever, books and speak like that. Right. Yeah, exactly. It’s nuts. It’s, it’s, it’s unfathomable. It’s like, it’s so foreign, so far away from what, what I’m used to, at least. And yeah, it’s, it’s very striking, but I, I cannot help but feel all, when I know when I play. Wow. Well, this is amazing because, because I’ve been doing a Bible study and we’re going to the first book of Mark, I think, anyway, and, and, and there’s Jesus and he’s basically setting up the kingdom, right? Like, so he’s, he’s going to all these places and he’s performing miracles, right? Like he’s casting out demons and then he’s, he’s healing the leper, right? Or the lepers. And it’s, it’s really interesting that like he’s, he’s there among these people and these people, they receive him in some way, right? But just imagine, right? Like you’re, you’re one of these people. Like I’m a Jew and like some, some bad stuff going on, right? In my country, like there’s this random guy coming into my temple or like, there’s like, yeah, he’s speaking the truth, right? And, and, and they were also talking about he’s, he’s having a teaching without, I don’t know what the word was, but basically it’s, it’s a participatory, right? Like, like he, he’s lived it, right? Like he’s speaking from the heart. He’s not speaking from the book. And, and so like, well, what does that mean? Right? Like, like how are you received? Right. And when you’re saying, well, like when, when I consume someone’s words like that, I’m in awe, right? Just so imagine that these people were listening to Jesus and, and, and they’re in awe. Some of them aren’t right. They’re like, what the fuck is going on? Like, but that’s not in the book, right? But the others, they’re like, holy cow. Like, this is something I’ve never seen before. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they don’t have internet, right? Like they don’t have anything. This guy comes in like, uh, what? And then there’s, there’s this line and it says, what does this mean? And I’m like, I’m going to have to meditate on that line. Like, what does it mean? Give me, give me 20 years and I’ll get back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s so, and, and it’s such a blessing to be able to have that contact that, that, that, that, I mean, I, I, I am very grateful that I get to have that experience of awe. And it’s, it’s, it’s the most, you know, in the most ubiquitous of places, you’re just like hanging out in your sofa reading. And it’s like, you, it’s how powerful is that the words are so perennial. They’re so timeless that still the stories and the struggles, which the humans for ourselves, just the same, like, again, I was reading Augustine, this could have been, I mean, besides the praise and the, and the, and the, and the kind of stance, which is just so surprising and foreign to me, but the issues that he talks about that the students and the way people lived and the way they thought that, you know, they were still having the, the same issues of putting up a modern frame, which was back in the year 300 on previous issues, the same issues that we’re living today. It’s literally the same, just completely aware of the same societal issues, personal issues, of course, perennial problems. And it’s so present. And it’s like, it’s so amazing that these people were so, well, far, far, far sighted, that they could really produce something like this. And I think it well, if you if you listen to them, then they say that it’s only because they’re in relation to the true that they keep telling you every page that it’s not because of them. But yeah, I just, I think of the courage and the guts that it takes to really take that seriously. I, it’s, I, it just, I’m terrified. Go back to that. So I want to say like, okay, go read Plato, the Republic. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. Also, don’t read it alone, because then you get whatever, but like, go read it. We have, we have a book club on Texas wisdom community where we went through the whole thing. We went through the whole thing. And I think we missed half of them. So like, yeah, FYI. So yes, the to go back to that, you feel like it takes balls because I’m not feeling that but maybe I have too many balls. Like, like, like, what do you, what do you mean? Like it takes balls. Okay. So I think of the guy in the, in the, in one of the gospels, there’s a guy that comes to Jesus and he says, you know, Hey, I, can you tell me the commandments? What are the things that I need to follow to live a good life? And he’s like, Hey, these are the commandments. He’s like, I’ve been keeping those since I’m like five. Since I have conscience. What next? And then Jesus is like, Yeah, well, sell everything you have and just follow me. And then the guy gets really angry and leaves. And then Jesus says, you know, I tell you, it is easier to go for a camel to go through a needle, the eye of a needle, for it is to someone with riches to go into the kingdom of heaven. And I just think, yeah, I don’t know if I will be able to, you know, against the advice of most of the people I know, let go of everything seriously, like just like, Hey, this is the thing I’m going to show up at the church. Like, Hey, I’m going to be, I want to know, I’m going to start the ropes. And this is what I’m doing. But I’m also cognizant that maybe that’s something like that’s out there for me. That’s all my role. You know, so there’s this kind of, are you chosen element, but also there’s the, can you abandon the nice things that you might have, you know, and I don’t know if I have the forbearance to first let go of the nice things that I accumulated because again, it came from a very poor place to make it and now things are kind of working out. I don’t know if I’m ready to let go of things yet. You know, that’s like I have a very little time and then there’s the other thing. Okay. I know that these things are temporal and these things are of the now and the world. They’re not of, you know, of truth itself. So yeah, but deciding to store all your riches in heaven, it’s a tough transition. I don’t know if I’m like, yeah, spiritually ready, I think for that. I don’t know if I have the spiritual maturity for that. I have a nice experience around that because I traveled through India when I was 21, 20 or something. And while I did that, like I lived like an Indian, right? Like I ate street food. I went to the Chevy place to sleep. Like, I had bad bugs and like, I got a soggy in India. Oh, really? Yeah. I had a soggy mattress, right? Like I did 24 hours in the train, right? Like stuff like that. And like, like I was okay with it. And then I’m, I’m there at night. And I know that when, when I take the plane, I have a place to go back to. And I’m like, I feel like I’m cheating. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t even know if I would have been able to do it without having that. It’s weird. Like it’s because, because it doesn’t matter, right? Like in that moment, it doesn’t matter. Like it has nothing to do with what you’re going through. It’s just like, oh yeah, this is just temporal thing. And even like, I might choose the temporal thing to be permanent. Cause I, I thought about that. Right. But it’s, it’s still not until you make it. Right. It’s like, and that has to do with commitment. Right. And to go back to balls, right? Like I think, I think truth conviction, like when you’ve seen it, you’re disgusted with yourself if you go against it. It’s like, like it sucks. Like, cause it requires more and more and more. The temptations are still there. I mean, like they’re still there. Yeah. But like the disgust is also there. And again, thank God for that. Like I think that we can have that reaction and aversion and that’s a spot where you can really identify clearly the wheat from chaff. And you see, okay, yeah, this is chaff. This is shit. We need to burn this. But then habit happens. And then it’s like, yeah, you’re still eating shit. It’s like, this is still going on and you’re still choosing to do it. Yeah. So, so, so, so. Just, just make sure you’re not eating your own flesh. Cause that’s where you get into a real bad place. No, but, but, but seriously, right? Like, like when you start cannibalizing, that’s, that’s where you, where you’re like, if you eat your puke, it’s like, yeah, that’s not good. But also, uh, you, you, you, you can get, get away from it. But if you start eating your flesh, right? Like now your self-referential, right? Like, yeah, like you, you, you’re, you’re, you’re stuck. You’re, you’re cannibalizing on what you have attained so far. And like, you’re, you’re just going to end up collapsing. Right. I think this is actually what’s happening in the West, but that’s a different problem. Um, so to, to go back to this conviction, right? I think, I think there’s in the Bible, there’s a point, maybe it’s in revelations or maybe it’s somewhere else where, where it basically says that there’s people who turn away from God after having known him. And those people are completely screwed. Right. But those are the most powerful people. Right. Cause that’s, that’s where you get into dark places. Cause you’ve tasted the power. Right. And now you’re, you’re putting that back into pride. Right. Like now, now you’re, you’re turning that to what’s your own ends. Yeah. And then treason is a thousand fold. Right. Because you knew me. Right. And I think, I think that there is a lot of that, that is at least applicable to me. I think, uh, I think that, um, yeah, for without a doubt, I mean, I had like, uh, uh, intense experiences, um, where, where I was, you know, in contact with something that, you know, it was beyond and I could acknowledge it and, and, and like savor it. And, and like, I got to be in that little blip of transcendence. And then that didn’t make me chast the next week. You know, that that didn’t do that. Um, and, and, and that’s, yeah. Um, well, so, so, so I want to go back to my Bible study, right? So the first one is he cast out demons, right? So, so what is a demon? Well, demon is something that takes possession of you. It’s inside of you. Right. And so he casts it out, right? So it’s, it’s in some sense, the person is not involved, right? Like, like, like the, like the person is subject to vehicle. Yeah. Right. Like it’s subjected by the bad spirit and it’s subjected by, by Christ casting it out. But then you have the leper, right? Which is someone who is unclean, right? And unclean person, he’s begging Jesus, heal me or clean me or what else. And then Jesus turns towards him in compassion, right? So, so Jesus is moved, also compelled. But what happens when he casts out, he touches him, right? Which is actually a sin, right? Cause you’re not allowed to touch unclean people. Right. So Jesus is a sinner at that point. No, it’s a social norm, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, it’s not a social norm. It’s in the Torah, right? Like it’s, it’s law. It’s not a norm. And so he breaks the law and then he tells him, don’t tell anyone. Right. And he, he, he demands of him, don’t tell him. And the first thing he does is he tells everyone. But that’s, that’s the same, right? So I want to contextualize a bunch of things, right? So what is uncleanliness, right? Like the unclean people, they had to shout that they were unclean or they had this rattle, right? And then everybody would walk around them. They had to go outside of the camp, right? They were socially distant, right? Like this is like, like this was a real thing, but, but what, what came with that, right? Shame. Like people treat you with disgust, right? Like, like there’s a whole stigma associated with this impurity that you’re having. And so what, what is the thing that Jesus breaks? The impurity, right? Like, like the stigma, like he’s, he’s basically proclaiming that it’s more important for me to touch you, right? To, to bring you back into the fold, then to be wary of your disease. Yeah. Right. So the spiritual damage is more significant than the physical, though. And then Jesus has to go outside the city in a place where he’s alone. So he takes on the banishment, right? Of that person. And so if, if you, if you refer this to a person that you’re trying to help, right? Like someone who’s like on drugs or whatever, right? And they’re out of society. Like, how do you get them back in? Well, you have to expose yourself to them and have them feel a sense of comfort, right? Like they have to reestablish that sense of connection. But what’s, what’s going to happen to you? You will be tainted as a consequence. Right? Like this is, this is gonna like wreck you. It’s gonna affect you. Yeah, exactly. You need to experience them. Yeah. Their life. You need to, you need to be there. And that, yeah. Yeah. And maybe if you have a family with kids, you shouldn’t go home because you’re going to bring that into your house and you don’t want to have that shit in your house. So you’re, you’re going to be going out with the rattle. I’m tainted. Right. You, you took over that taint, but that’s the only way to get those people back into the fall. Right? Cause if, if nobody’s gonna take on their sin and carry that sin around, like, how are they going to get, how are they, how are they going to heal? They’re not. How are they going to find trust in humanity again, after being like pushed out of society? They’re not like someone is going to have to carry that sin to bring, to bring them back into the body. So that, that’s one side. And now, now it’s like, okay, like how does that relationship between you and God, like what, what parts of you, right? Like the prideful parts, right? Like are basically unclean and you need to be cleansed. Right. And like, like what, what, what is, what is this revelation that you had or, or, or this blessing, like, whatever, like, I don’t even know what word you want to just transcend the next. Yeah, no, it was just a moment that was, yeah, just some, some, some, some, some, yeah, like some sort of a vision, but it was very, very quick. I was doing something else. I was biking and it was like daydreaming. Very dangerous. Yes. Yes. But, but, but, but again, right. Like, okay. So, so you get pulled out, right? Like, so you’re unclean and you’re like, oh, this is what it’s like to be clean. Or this is what it’s like to be in a clean environment. They’re like, you don’t know how to be in that unclean, in that clean environment, right? You don’t know how to be not dirty. And so what’s the first thing that you’re going to do? Well, first thing that you’re going to do likely is like, what the fuck just happened? Let’s tell everybody what happened instead of go to the place, right? Cause that’s what the guy got told to do. Right. Right. Like, go to the place. So, so that, but, but also it’s like, he’s too much in joy to recognize the situation that he’s in and that he’s not fully saved. Cause he hasn’t reintegrated. Because what does Jesus say? Go to the priest, let them declare you clean. Right. What does that mean? Well, that means that he needs to be recognized again, right? Like he needs to get, and then he needs to make an offering to God as well. Right. So he needs to get approval again, that, that, that he’s part of society and that everybody can get along again. And that’s the other half, right? Like, so if you’re, if you’re clean, you still have to integrate. Yeah. Yeah. And I think maybe we might’ve missed a couple of steps. Probably. Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. But, but, but, but like my realization was, if you save someone, right, or you yourself get saved, you’re going to sin. Afterwards. Like there’s no way to receive this blessing and keep it. Yeah. Like, like that’s not an option. Like, and you can, you can, you can even say it’s like, well, a flaw or like a failing of Jesus, or, or at least the limitation, right? Cause the guy didn’t listen to him. So it’s like, well, what happened there? Right? Like that, that means that it’s just a fundamental constraint. Yeah. It’s the, the, the, the, the, the flask or the, the, the container is not ready to, to, to, to, to receive, or it’s not in the correct shape, or at least the things have out and it just spills. So it’s, it, it, it, there’s, but, but yeah, and maybe this is another prideful thought. It’s like, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of calling and churches that there’s also the, the, the idea of the inhabitation of the Holy Spirit. And like, you know, we, we act through, we let God act through us, right? And there’s this, this idea of like, you receive the, the, the spirit that you get cleansed or it helps heal wounds inside. And then you can go out there and be a better person in the world. Now the prideful thought is, is, is the following, like, well, if, if you are to be an instrument and, and it is repeated again and again and again, that we are the body of Christ in, in, in the world as churches, to what extent are you responsible for polishing the instrument? And is that a thing that in, so, so again, if, if, if this, this, this, if this magical spirit air is going to flow through the instrument, you are the instrument. To what extent are you, so should you try to polish the instrument and perfect it? Is that, is that onto you? Is that, is that, is that naked pride? Or is it just by letting the spirit flow through it? That’s, that’s going to happen as a consequence as the spirit just continues to do that. Mm hmm. Well, like, no, no, we’re, we’re getting into this problem, right? Like, so a frame gets erected, right? And it’s like, how long do I hold onto the frame? Like, maybe it’s an important frame. Like, how do you know? Right. But maybe it’s, it’s a constraining frame, or maybe it’s both. It’s like, so it’s like, there’s, there’s, there’s no good answer to it, right? Apart from that, you can’t hold onto it forever. No. Right. And so, like, I have a lot of experiences like this with, with yoga or Qigong, like, where, where, where, like, like, I’m, I’m now having this muscle bother me, right? And so, like, that means that there’s a calling, right? Like, my attention is called to that place, and I have to do something. So, like, I need to untense it. And then it’s like, well, maybe I feel another muscle, right? So, but also, like, I need, I need to go back from it and let it be, right? But if I can’t let it be in a healthy way, I need to attend to it more, right? So, like, there’s, there’s this, this depth, right? Like, this investment that I have to make, right? And like, I’m not going to be perfect at the first time that I do this, right? So, like, like, there’s this reciprocation where, like, I have to pay my attention there somewhat, but like, I can’t do that all day, which I actually do sometimes. Like, like, I’ve actually done that for three hours or whatever, like, I’m just laying in bed with my spine. And I like, like, maybe it’s actually necessary, right? Because like, maybe my spine is so fucked up that, like, it’s preventing me from so many other things. Like, I’m actually somewhat convinced of that. That, that, that, yeah, no, but like, like, you can feel it, right, in, in the participation with your spine, like, oh, like, if that happens, then all of these things go away. And it’s like, but I can’t sustain it. Well, what does that mean? Does that mean that I need to spend three hours? Or does that mean that I need to go and do Qigong or yoga? Or play football? Like, or, or go racing on my bike? Like, like, I don’t know what the answer is to that one. But like, I have to find it somewhere, right? Or I have to ignore it. But like, I think ignoring it is, is it right? Like, because I am called to do something. Like, who am I? Like, like, I’m probably gonna have to deal with that for the next three years. And after three years, I’ll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. And the purposely ignoring the, the call is, is, it’s not, it’s not only difficult, but it’s, it’s so unnatural. It’s, ignore it just purposely. And it’s like there, it’s on fire. Yeah, try not to scratch. Then you’re like agonizing about it. Yeah, it’s, I, but yeah, I, I, with some things, right? Like some things don’t serve you, you just have to ignore it. No. And, and, oh, actually, I’ve been doing this with a lot of people, right? So you have the kingdom prayer, right? So thy kingdom come thy will be done. As it doesn’t happen, so it will be under right? Like these four steps, they’re super important. Like, so what is it? Right. Like that’s our orientation. Yeah. How do we get the kingdom participating in the will? Right. So that’s the means of getting them. And then we have heaven, which is that which informs and then earth is that which has to be transferred. So if you want to, if you want to set your thoughts to the right place, go to these four steps. And then you have the kingdom prayer, right? So to the right place, go to these four steps and you can go to the forgiveness part as well, right? Because like, that’s relatively important if you’re, you’re, you’re in an emotional frustration, right? But I don’t, I don’t like the forgiveness part is, is secondary, right? Like what is most important is, is, is that you can see where you need to go and then you can find the means to go there. Because if you don’t know where you need to go, you’re, you can, you can find the means all you want. Like you can forgive people all you want. If you don’t know what heaven is or how the kingdom manifests or whatever, like it doesn’t matter. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s also, well, it’s like, I’m thinking to what extent, so you’re, you’re, you’re giving the answer through the prayer, right? Because you’re saying like the, that kingdom will come, let the, let the objective put the, bear the objective in mind first and, and take away the highest, right? Like, right, the highest exactly. So, so bear the highest, try to place the highest and try to fathom ways to it to get there. Well, that would be like a- Secondary is important, right? Because it’s die will, right? So, so if we go to a kingdom, like what is a kingdom? Well, a kingdom has a king, right? So a king can tell you things directly, or he can send heralds, which are angels, right, to tell you. Or you can find your mayor, who’s like a servant of the king, to tell you something, and then you can still participate in the will of the kingdom, right? So there’s many pathways by which the king can reach you. Yeah. And so there’s many ways that you can listen and participate in that will. Yeah. And it has to be fractal. So, so that’s where I want to push back on the, on the forgiveness thing. So it’s the, because I think that the certain acts that are good are informed by the highest at the different levels. So they are, you know, their echoes of the highest thing. And they, they, they, they, and of course they need to be, they need to be in participation of the high thing, or they have to have the highest thing in its north for, in order to them to be healing, right? So, so, so that’s what I think that’s what you’re trying to say. Well, like they can be good in and of themselves, right? Because like, like, like if the king says, pay your taxes and you’re paying your taxes because you want the guy out of your house, right? Or you don’t want to get into jail, you’re still participating and you’re fulfilling your job. You’re just not a good citizen, right? Like, yeah. So, so they can still participate, like you can participate unwillingly, like, yeah, indeed. No, no. And then you, and then that’s exactly where you come to the relational aspect and the qualitative aspect. Okay. You’re doing this thing, but how, how are you, are you doing with a smile? Are you doing it with reverence? Are you doing it with awe? Are you doing it just forcefully? And are you doing it just by following your heart? Or are you doing it just by you know, just by inertia? And are you, are you sending the tax collector out with a smile on his face so that he doesn’t beat up the next guy? Like, that’s important, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. And that, that, that I must say it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s become more, more, more of a thing that I’ve been able to, to integrate that, that kind of emphasis on that the qualitative and the relational is paramount. And no matter the interaction, that if, if, if the golden rule, just like, you know, try to people, try, try to treat people like you would want to treat them to treat you. Don’t do that when you’re depressed, by the way, but keep going. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s just been through the years, that’s just been reinforced again and again and again, as a, as a real dictum of wisdom. And that’s been really, really, really good. That’s like something so firm ground to lash yourself onto it. That’s, that’s been very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the pride is, is indeed being able to, to, to, to self consciously let go of your ideas or, or at least, well, it’s, it’s, it’s actually, no, that’s, that’s wrong. So I already realized my own error, but yeah, attributing to yourself, ain’t an idea. It’s like, no, these are, these are many dead people thoughts, the, the, the dead people’s thoughts, my friend. So it’s, it’s not even yours. But the idea is also from heaven, right? Like it’s, it’s, it’s haven’t, haven’t, what are you blaming heaven’s properties? That’s great. Indeed. Yeah, indeed. So if you say like the Joe, then yeah, indeed, everything is informed from top down. Right. So yeah, that’s the realm of the world of forms for my friend that likes the Republic. So yeah, indeed. Yeah, no, but, but, but, but seriously, right? Like it, because, because that’s, that’s what the pride is, right? Like it’s attributing something to yourself that that’s not yours. Right. And it’s like, well, yeah, you, you may have been the vessel that brought like 15,000 elements together. Like that’s a miracle literally, right? That all of these 15,000 things got brought together. But also did you really do that? Like, did you go out and like, I need to have that thing and that one, not that one, but I’ll take that one and then I put them in this proportion. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s been, yeah. And I think that that’s, that’s why I personally need to just go and prostrate myself every Sunday. You know, it’s like at least once a week and need to not be a little shit. And that’s like, you know, that’s the thing. It’s a ritual of like, you know, this, this is a, yeah, say thanks. But it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a prayer. It’s a practical, it’s a practice. It needs to be, it’s a repetition. It’s not, it’s not a, it’s not a puzzle that is to be solved, not a paradox. We need to, it’s just something to do. It’s literally like a, like a daily sacrifice, I think. Yeah. And like, like, I think taking this, we’re, we’re created in the image of God, like, seriously, right? Like, like, what does that mean? Yeah. Like, like that means that we’re a mirror of heaven that shines on earth. I was like, okay, that’s me. Like, okay. Like, like that’s, that’s my identity. Any other identity is not something that’s mine. Like, that’s not me. That, that’s something that I’m assuming to be a proper mirror. Yeah. And, and, yeah, because, because like, we’ve been having this discussion about self transcendence. And it’s like, what do you mean? Like, how do you transcend the self? Like, like, like, that’s not a thing that you can do. And, and it’s also like, if you, if you transcend, like, why is there a self in? Right? Like, like, if, if the thing that you transcend that is you, then it wasn’t you because you transcend it, and it’s no longer you. Like, like, then it wasn’t you in the first place. Like, it has to be older. I don’t know if maybe the self transcendence maybe in the year, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re arguing the language, right? No, but it’s not only the language, because the language implies how to relate to it. Right? Like, if it’s self transcendence, that that’s you doing it, it’s not God. It’s like, no, that’s pride. Self transcendence. If you say I said I did self transcendence, like, that’s a prideful statement. Like, sorry. Oh, yeah. I mean, imagine the going walk around the studio. I am a transcendent being. It’s like, okay, buddy. Sure. But yeah, okay. So indeed, so if you if you put it that way on on on the lab, that mirror, I think I think you can also identify it like you can also treat it as, you know, I just got rid of all the scrap I had on and I was latching onto. And I’ve, you know, left that behind. And then you would be you could describe that in that way. But but yeah, choosing the way you say that and go about that and by whose power you did that. I think it’s important. But like, I think I think I’ve been having this discussion in many ways with Christians, like, for real. Right? Because because like, like, what what what is it actually saying? Well, I’m saying that there’s a right way to look at it. Right. And the right way to look at things is not to identify yourself with anything affected. Right? Because that’s not you. Now, I might be dependent on like a bunch of things, right, like having this house. And and having this house informs partially who I am, right? Because like, I have a bunch of patterns that I live out every day. This house is gone. I’m not living out those patterns. Like, and I will change. Right. So like, there’s, there’s something of me in this house, right, or connected to this house. But but that’s because I assumed right, like, it’s my skin. Like, I wear it. It’s clothing that I use to protect myself to, to prevent nature from developing. But that’s not me. And if I start thinking that as me, right, like, you can you can you can take whatever layer of clothing, right? Oh, my clothing is my family. My clothing is my nation. My clothing is my faith. Like, my clothing is this. My clothing is that. Anytime that you do that. Well, first of all, you’re prideful. But secondly, you destroy the world. Like, that’s how people get killed. Don’t touch my clothing. Can you can you can you can you can you? Can you try to explain that in different words? So how does the world how are you killing the world by identifying with? Because these are your identity, different facets for your identity, right? So we are, you know, you’re both a son, a brother, a neighbor, co worker, etc. All these things at the same time. And you have, you’re saying that in the in the action of ascribing. You’re not like you’re not them. Like, like, it’s not a state of the universe, right? You adopt that, right? You you you can disown somebody and say like, you’re no longer my child. And then you treat them as if they’re not your child. And they won’t be. They just won’t be. If you can do that, right? Like that we can have a discussion about what are you capable of doing that. But like, if I throw away this piece of clothing, like, it’s gone. Mm hmm. No, there’s there’s clothing that’s more stuck onto me, right? That I can’t. But you’re saying that the errors and is in the identification with the things that are. Yeah. Okay, so so you’re saying that. That doesn’t mean that I don’t need this clothing, right? Like, because like, if that’s all the clothing I have, like, I’m gonna have to hold on to this because else I die. But that doesn’t mean that it’s me. That just means that I need it to survive. To survive. But I don’t know if you should. I don’t know if we should impose such a like a utilitarian view or can function. Why is that like. No, I’ll say so. I mean, I mean, like more like transactional. I suppose more. No, it’s not transactional. Like I take care of my clothes. I wash them. I love them. Yeah. Like, it’s not. Yeah, no, I like like love your neighbor, love your clothes, like love everything. Like, like, if you if you love, right, like I was talking to this guy and he was talking about this food is made with love and like that’s an ingredient that you like, like it doesn’t matter what you do if you don’t do it with love, like it’s not going to taste this nice. But it’s like, yes, like you need you need to love the things that you do because else they don’t have quality. They don’t have quality. But that like that also means that you’re in relationship to them, right, because like you’re you’re loving, right, like it’s being subjected to you, right. The things that you love are subjected to your love. Yeah. And you need you need to be able to do that. Right. In order to love them. If you know, because you can’t if you identify with and you can’t love them. Well, as I know, I don’t have any issues loving themselves. They’re not themselves. They think they are, but that’s a different point. That’s not love. Yeah. Interesting. That’s an interesting thing to be very sharp about. Don’t identify with the things that would be markers for your identification and love them, but not identify with them. That’s an interesting idea. But you can assume an identity, right? It’s like in in in order to love my kid, I need to be a father. Like, OK, like, that’s fine. Like love being a father. Fine. Like. But that’s not you ultimately. Yeah. And that’s in in in in repose to contrast to well, the you is the the way Jesus looks at you, right, which is we pray. Help me see see me how you see me, right. And that’s trying to bring from me what you think my image should be, right. That that’s that’s that’s the idea you’re trying to enforce. Yeah, that is. And yeah, like to connect that to life, right. Like, that’s how you bring life. Because if you don’t do that, it’s like it’s like you you are going to be an authoritarian in in in that domain. If you if you don’t act out of love, you’re going to be an authoritarian. No, no. And don’t. And so like these people would say they love themselves. They’re authoritarians to themselves. Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is very helpful. This is very fun. I am. Yeah. It’s helpful to flesh things out and put them more bring them back to basics. It’s very helpful to place the pride right in its little corner of like, add attributing to yourself. That’s think really a key thing and that you and that is also like in in a more practical way is easier to identify when you’re doing that. You can really that’s easy. It’s a very useful way to look at things because you can catch it right there. And yeah, just the relational aspect, I think is so, so fundamental. It’s really it really is like I mean, I think it’s no. I mean, it is it is a mystery in so many ways, but it’s there. There is a good reason why we think of God as a three in one relational thing. That’s not the one thing, but it’s like the father, son and spirit in relation. That’s the highest. The highest is this. It’s not the it’s the one. But at the same time, the one is not one. It’s it’s it’s like something like relational love at the highest. And that’s and that’s the quality that we should try to echo down the all the levels. Um. Yeah, those things, those things, I think are they seem to me as as more climbable mountains than than me thinking of letting everything go. That seems more doable. Well, that’s that’s a problem, right? Like, like we, we, we, we have, especially with propositions, right? Like we get out of the things that are revealed to us. And then we’re like, Oh, yeah, I can I can see how that would work. And it’s like, yeah, but can you see how you would do it? Because like, seeing how it would work is like, okay, like, maybe you can see that. But seeing how you get there, it’s like, no. And also, it’s like, I think I think religion is actually really simple. Like, not easy, but simple, right? Like, like, there’s just a bunch of moving components, fractally related to each other. And like, if you get the proper discernment, you you can just move through it, right? And you just have to have a bunch of fundamentals. And like, yeah, maybe maybe maybe you’re a little bit stupid. And like, you can’t you can’t see all the things around you. But like, who gives a shit? Like, you just need to see the important things. Yeah. And it’s like, okay, but like, how do you get to the important things? Well, my kingdom come. Right. Of thy kingdom come. Wow. Okay. Hello, Freud. Yeah, that’s quite the Freudian slip indeed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s fun. But it is also my kingdom, like, to be fair. I’m part of it. Let’s hope so, man. Let’s hope so. I think I hope they like inquisitors up there. I think I’ll just have to go to the 14th century. Okay. I think they have a job application up in there. Oh, like, like, yeah, I think you’re correct, by the way, I think indeed. So and I think that there is funnily enough, intellect and having this capacity to over complicate things, and dig deeper into things is a double edged sword. Like, it totally makes it so that you are aware of way more things about the world and yourself, and how they’re flawed, that keep you sometimes they distract you from the things that are really worth doing. And noticing the just participating in the pattern without being so obsessed about every little thing in it. And it’s like, we, I’ve seen this a lot, like, again, very simple people, but just like, very wholeheartedly participating in a congregation, and, you know, just being, being able to, to really embody all those things that, you know, people like Jordan Hall, can talk about, you know, six weeks on nonstop to try to describe what it means to be in that place. It’s like, okay, but are you there? Like, are you there? But are you there? So it’s like, okay, we can lay down all the constraints. If you’re, if you’re there, would you need six weeks? Exactly. That’s exactly this, okay. But yeah, so that’s, that’s neat. Well, that’s a way to test yourself, right? Like, if you, if you need a thousand words, you can’t paint the picture. Like, like, you’re not there. Like, you’re just not there. Like, because, because, because I know, right, like, I had a bunch of ideas, and I’m like, ooh, circling, circling, I was like, oh, this layer, this, and on this layer, that, on this layer, that, right? And like, at a certain point, I’m like, oh, it’s just this. Oh, it’s just this. Like, it just, like, it’s obvious. But like, you know how much time that took me, right? And it’s like, it’s like, well, what am I, what am I doing, right? Like, like, if it’s not obvious to me, like, what, that’s, that’s valid, in some sense, right? And like, like, I don’t know, like, like, maybe you need to go there by, by walking the path, because like, I think, I think there is participation in the world, like, literally, right? Like, like, because I can do it, right? Like, I can, I can see the intelligibility around certain areas. But if you’re not there, Yeah, you can hypothesize all you want. Because this is where I went with Mark, is like, okay, like, this idea, like, I know there’s something there important, but like, it’s just a dragon. Like, like, I can’t deal with this. I’m not going to spend any time on it, because it’s going to eat me. Like, it’s just going to eat me. Like, some things, you just need to leave a mystery. And maybe the mystery will be revealed to you. But it’s not going to be by, like, stepping into the dragon, because the dragon is going to eat you. And that’s the humility. And this is why you need a sage, right? Like, like a mentor. And the thing that I learned today was that Jews were called to mentor in the end of the night. And I’m like, oh, that’s what Jesus is doing. Like, he took 12 disciples, and he mentored them. Yeah. Yeah, no, that’s beautiful. Yeah, indeed. And I think we get the most satisfaction from that. Like, that’s one of the things that, like, that there’s seldom things that are feel as meaningful as that. And there are really as meaningful as that. And really helping someone else and getting them and making them capable in something and just instructing them and having them see and grow. And then you see that. That’s the glory. Participating that. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, yeah. That’s beautiful that we can play a part in that. That’s just, yeah, mind-boggling. It’s amazing. If you see yourself speaking through their mouth. It’s like, wow. It’s like, oh, and then Christ is speaking to my mouth. What does that mean? Like 2000 years later, right? It’s like, holy. And that you can participate in it. Like, that’s the thing that’s open to you. Yeah. No. But yeah, pride is a big deal. Like this Sola Scriptura bullshit. Like, I’m reading this stuff, right? In the Bible study and like this old people, right? Like 70 years stuff. I’m saying things and they never conceived of them. Yeah. I was like, okay, like you’re a good Christian, right? Like you’ve been trying your life when you’re at the end of your life, where you’re still trying to figure this stuff out. But you didn’t get it. Yeah. And I think there’s these fundamental things like you’re saying, right? These paradoxes. And it’s like some people don’t even see that they’re in the paradox. They don’t even realize it. Yeah. And sometimes it’s best for ignorance. I mean, yeah. Right. If it’s not, again, if it’s not functionally preventing them from participating, what importance is it really? Again, besides being this curiosity little thing, this masturbatory thing that you have, that is beautiful to wander upon. Yeah. And at the same time, I am still, this doesn’t take away from the fact that there are things that are so striking. And I still remember the first time I heard John Rakey talk, just that guy talking. It’s like, what are you? This fascination of like, how can you handle language this way? It’s like so striking. And there was so much beauty and excellence in it. It’s like, wow, this is incredible. But again, how would you say to the lady that’s working at Walmart? Then we go back to, okay, what is really the essence of what we’re trying to? So there is value in being nuanced, of course, obviously. But it’s just not the most important thing. Until it is. But yes. Like this is why we need the monastery. Right. It’s like, yes. Like, not everybody has to like climb up all the way Jacob’s ladder. Right. But we’re going to have to have the one person that’s climbed all the way up so that they can tell us that we’re making a totalitarian system that’s going to kill millions of people. Like, we’re going to need that person. And we’re going to need to be able to listen to that person and don’t think that he’s a fool and kill him. Because that happened. Like, yeah, have we learned from our mistakes? I don’t know. I don’t even know if I learned from my mistakes. Exactly. So I mean, if I if I read Jesus today, and this guy was just like, again, as he as he was in the gospel, spitting fire 24 seven, I also don’t know how I would react. This person is extreme. Like, this guy’s crazy. Would you even recognize him? No. I mean, probably. I mean, I mean, to be fair, would he would be truly probably talking about crypto. But I mean, it’s no, I don’t know. I’m joking. But but it’s so many gurus. And that’s a whole different topic. But yeah, well, they’re prideful. They’re casting out what they think should be attributed to the self’s glory and saying, you know, follow me, I am a leader that you should pay attention to. And then all the all the all the pieces fall back. And yeah, of course, they get misled. But yeah, it’s it’s it’s quite a thing to keep keep your ego in check. And I think the humility practices are for me the most attainable and easy to grasp. Be thankful. Just like recognize, see, this is not yours. This is this is God’s. Say thanks. Just pray. Sit down. Remember, that’s that’s that’s easier. I think that that’s that’s more also doable, literally, like it’s ritualizable. It’s a ritual that is easy. Not for me. Yeah. Like for me is really like gratitude is I suck at gratitude. Yeah. No, humility. Fine. Gratitude. No. Yeah. I. Well, I think I think it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a frame question. It’s it’s like. Yeah, it’s it’s because again, like again, if if you’re not able to feel gratitude, you’re not aware of the things that are given to you enough. You don’t they’re not as conscious or present to you as they should be. Yeah. And and and and that, you know, we have that in tiny things, you know, when you lose something, you didn’t know what is the value that you that thing had until you lost it. But you can do that exercise mentally without losing anything and just saying like, wow, look at all the shit I have. And I, you know, I ate enough today. I don’t have to worry about my calorie intake. Other than for aesthetic purposes. Like I can eat enough. I have a roof over my head. Isn’t that a miracle? Yeah. I mean, I just think that I think thankfully, I’m very that comes that comes intuitively to me. Maybe because I I saw a lot of people losing most of the shit they had for a long time. And that, well, this country is just so insanely rich that and that that is just so so bizarrely pregnant with riches. That is hard for me not to have it constantly present. And I’m very I’m very happy. Yeah. Thank you more for that. But I can bring that to bear daily without any effort. It’s like, oh, yeah, that’s obvious. Yes, I should be grateful for that. So let’s bring it back to pride because I want to go back to this. It takes balls. To speak the truth. Do you want to you want to read this data from your current perspective? Yeah. So I think the the thing that I think for me seems so so so difficult to to walk the walk of a saint is, you know, like really letting everything go that you possess and that you have. And for example, just let’s talk about having a chast life or just going and living to a monster. And you reject the idea of ever marrying, having kids, ever having a career, whatever, and or any property you might have had accumulated or anything. And you have to let everything go. And you are recognizing, of course, that you’re doing it for something that’s way higher. And in comparison, all these things are, you know, they only derive the value from how related they are to the highest. And you’re cognizant of that. But that doesn’t take away from you. So that it is still very painfully vivid to you how those things still are part of the shelter you inhabit, part of your clothes. But also of how painful it would be to let go of them. Yeah, but I don’t I don’t know about this, right? Because, you know, you don’t. I’m actually actually now I’m making the connection to gratitude. Right. Because because why am I not grateful? Like, well, I had this experience when I was like 15, like, I couldn’t do I could get drunk today or not. And tomorrow would just be the day and I did my day. Like, effectively, what I do today doesn’t matter. Right. And it’s like, that’s false on some level. But it’s also true. Right. Like, you’re just gonna wake up and you’re gonna do what you think you have to do. And I’m like, I’m not advising this, this is like, don’t think about the world in this way, because like, it’s gonna mess you up. But also, like, yeah, like, that’s how I taught about the world for a long time. Right. And if you’re thinking about the world in that way, it’s hard to be great. Right. Because like, it’s also hard to. Yeah, it’d be better to be a good person. Yeah. that’s happening. Yeah. I have a feeling. Yeah. I, I’m thinking if we’re thinking about the world in that way, it’s hard to be great. Yeah. Right. Because like it’s also hard to, Yeah, there’s like, like, you’re, of course that that’s there’s this sense of powerlessness and lack of agency. Well, it’s not, it’s not, but that’s not even necessary. Right. It’s just indifference. is like a severe word, right? So that apathy is just going to lead to a lack of meaning in your life, and then you don’t know what to do, which is what happens to be literal. So the gratitude is important with that. But also, this is why virginity is important. If you’re a virgin, you lack participatory knowledge. If you don’t engage in the propositional knowledge, you’re not lacking. In what way are you lacking? When I was in India, my problem was, why are these billboards here? Why are these huge signs where they’re displaying Western luxury over these people who are never going to be able to attain it? Because that’s evil. If they never knew about it, they would live their lives. They would go home. It’s the knowing better from the age of gnosis. That’s the problem. We know how it could be perfect, because we invented communism. That’s where things go wrong. Oh, I had this transcendent experience. I should live like this all the time. That’s where things go wrong. The world should be like this, because I had this experience once. Are you for real? If we all would be stoned, then the world would be a better place. Yes, until there’s no power anymore. Yeah. So I’m losing what you were wanting to communicate with that. So indeed. So I hear that there’s a cruelty to knowing better makes you aware of things you might not have. And you wouldn’t have access to that. And that makes you obsessed. Now you get my sense. Right, exactly. And you were connecting this to virginity in the sense that that would be the not knowing. If you don’t know, then you’re in naivety. And then, yeah, OK. So why is it important to be a virgin when you marry? Because you’re not comparing your partner to all the previous partners. And that’s unfair to the partner. That’s a really good reason, apart from other reasons. That’s a really good reason. Because, yeah, your partner might actually be shit. But do you know when your partner is shit? I don’t know. Well, I mean, of course, the world is just, yeah. I mean, we go back to the qualitative. Yes, maybe you haven’t done this. OK, but how many things have you seen, my friend? And to what degree and how are you carrying this chastity? That’s why you need to marry early. Right? It makes sense what’s happening. Right? If we have birth control and we can marry at 30 years old, then obviously we want to have sexual partners before that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? But also, what is that doing? No, I didn’t. But if you wanted to catch it before the thoughts got really twisted, then you have to get it before they get a phone. And that would be a 12. So good luck with that. Well, I was still in the 60s with my reasoning, OK? Yeah. Yeah, I think blissful. Yeah, but again, but there is even, but there is, but once you know, so once you’re in no, and I think there would be even more value to chastity when you are aware that there’s all these other people that are not doing that and they’re all crazy about it, and you are deciding not to do it. That’s a way more, you know, you know that, you know, say there’s all this doctrine in the West, but you decide not to chase it. I think that there’s something to that. Yeah, but like that sounds like, is that value actually bringing glory? Like I’m, like that, it’s like, like I don’t know. Like there’s this distinction between people who do things within their nature, right? Because they’re gifted, right? So you’re grateful because you’re gifted, having gratitude. I’m great, like I’m humble because I’m gifted with being humble because I know when I’m stupid and when I’m not, right? And that’s just like, did I work for that? Yes, but also no, right? Like that just came to me. So is that better? Because if I’m going to be in a race on this aspect and I’m going to be first, like how good is that? I mean, it’s amazing in some level, but like it’s not amazing because I willed it, right? Like I aligned my will with it. But I did align my will with it, but also it happened to me. Like it’s amazing that I do the things that aren’t aligned with my will, right? Like that frustrates me and I still overcome. That’s where the glory is. I don’t think the glory is in the achieving because the achieving only matters if it wouldn’t have been achieved without a try, right? Yeah, so why is there glory in the chaste person that has an idea of what they’re missing? You said that there might not be, right? If I understand correctly. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s mysterious, but I know that I couldn’t do it. So that’s something that I will not be able to attain. For you there is, right? But that’s like, yeah, but yeah, like some people can make an awesome painting, right? If I made that same painting, that would be a miracle. For them, it’s not a miracle. Yeah. Yeah, I just struggle with the denial of agency and therefore pride. So that’s a signal of my pride that is demanded of me as I read the book. It’s just too much to bear. It is quite a lot to ask. Well, I want to put it in a different way, right? It’s like because you have, well, what is it? Have faith and all things will be added onto you. Is that it? But what does it mean for things to be added onto? But that means that they’re second order effects. Yeah. Right, so you don’t pursue them. Yeah, actually. You seek the one. And then they manifest. And so if we go back to your pride thing, it’s like, no. You seek the kingdom of God and your pride disappears. Like, like, just like that. Yes, like I don’t think it’s more simple or difficult than that. No, doing that might not be easy. But you can’t fight the devil with the devil. Like that’s like, indeed. Like that’s what the devil wants. It’s like, yeah, you keep doing that. Like you keep summoning me to beat me. Like I’ll send you all the troops you need. No, this brings me to, yeah, you made me think of bringing the devil to cure spiritual wounds. Made me think of the, now, we’ll just make this chip. It’s going to make you very sane. Not your anxiety is going to be gone. It’s OK. We’ll find the right pill. It’s good. It’s going to be great. That’s right. Yeah. That’s exactly the problem. Yeah, that’s the right way to formulate the problem. That is really good. Oh, indeed. But indeed, that is a nice quest, isn’t it, to continue to ponder on the kingdom. Just live it and fight. And it will be added all to you. Yeah, I need to find this church you’re going to. I want to see what grapeshoes they’re giving you. This isn’t good stuff. They planned it on fertile agron. I can tell you that. Nice. So yeah, let’s wrap this up. I’m going to go back to the beginning. Let’s wrap this up. I think we’re kind of full circle to the devil. Yeah. Still, right? Yeah. Like, we’re as anyway. Yeah, like simple, but not easy. You know, it’s like that’s a good way to look at it. Indeed. It’s not more complicated than that. It doesn’t make it. It’s very hard. Don’t get it wrong. Don’t get it twisted. And it’s insanely difficult. But you know, it’s not like you should be puzzled about the answer. The answer is the answer. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you want to do like a takeaway? Yeah, so I think that was a really good one. I think I said my piece. I think self-attribution as a signal of pride and a very easy way of seeing that pride is emerging. I take away from today. And yeah, we just need to continue fixing our gaze. And we can do it through prayer so that that helps us focus and like recalibrate. Hey, this is the direction. That can come. You know where we are. Right? So there. And I will just have to continue chewing on the letting go of my own expectations of things. You know, like just so letting the will be done will have some consequences. Yep. That will be terrifying and counterproductive. And it will seem to me counterproductive at the moment. No, they are counterproductive. And they will be. Because production isn’t their aim. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Production. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That’s great. I like that. That’s very good. Production isn’t there. Exactly. Yeah. And there, we just need a lot of faith. Like, you know, just let it go. And just let go. And just let it happen. But yeah, I need to. I want to trigger you. So I’m going to say I might need to self-transcend a little bit further to get there. No, but. OK, I’ll help you self-transcend. Oh, did you self-transcend? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah. But thanks. This was really good. And anything from your side to close off? Well, I find it amazing that I’m at this place where I’m having this experience during the day. And I can tie them in. And I’m actually making meaningful statements with these things that I just experienced. And just like meaningful, right? Like truthful. Or not true. Like they’re true, right? Like they’re bringing you closer to the goodness, right? And at least me. And I think that’s something to be grateful for. When you have that happening in your life, when these things start lining up, that says something. That’s fruit. That’s being blessed. Because there was no will of mine in that. That’s just all given to me. I went there. I didn’t pick the texts. Like I just sat there and stuff came to me. And other people said things. And then more things came to me. And then I realized things that I couldn’t have realized on my own. And then I talked about them with other people. And then I talked about them with you. And now it’s on the internet. And hopefully someone will write in the comment section so that they get refined again. And then we are building the kingdom. Yep. Amen, man. That’s great. That’s good. I’m happy I could be part of the closing the circle. That’s good. OK, well, thanks for watching, everybody. Ciao.