Service - Kathryn - Unfolding the Soul (ObrY84ikNAQ)

https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=ObrY84ikNAQ

Hello and welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Catherine and she has done this amazing work on organizing the Thunder Bay Conference where a bunch of people gather like the cream of the crop. I don’t know if that’s a good English phrasing but the cream of the cup, there we go, of this corner of the internet. Yeah she’s done a lot of work and that work is related to her topic that she chose today which is service. So yeah, how about you start us off with a definition of service? Sure, yeah, I hadn’t planned one in advance. So I guess I would say that service is anything that you do for the benefit of others but more specifically what I mean when I use the term tends to be more hands-on service. So it’s more in the physical world, tangibly, doing things for the sake of other people. So that could be setting up chairs, doing dishes, some kind of physical manifestation of actually caring for the needs of other people. You could conceptually broaden it, like there’s also like emotional service and there’s spiritual service. But when I thought of the topic I was mostly thinking of physical service. So when you’re doing something like setting up chairs, there’s also a deeper level which actually goes into the emotional and the spiritual, because it’s creating a space for something to happen. So is that a thing that’s on your mind when you apply service? Yeah, I think for me the background of it is it’s also like a fairly like in the Christianese and Christian lingo, it’s considered to be one of the spiritual gifts. So it’s one of the things that is a way where you can be led by God. It’s supposed to be a manifestation of God’s care and love for other people. Because it’s considered a gift, all the things that go along with the spiritual gifts kind of apply, which means that it’s supposed to be something that when you do it, you feel like you are participating in God’s work. You feel like not everybody is supposed to have the gift of service, but everyone’s supposed to do it sometimes. But for people who have the gift of service, they’re supposed to be like a joy to do it, because then all the fruit of the spirit is kind of manifested to, right? Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, self-control. So it’s kind of linked in with these virtues, which are supposed to sort of manifest. But that would be like the physical way that you expressed your care of other people. So there’s definitely like the background of like the spiritual link and also a link to like a constellation of virtues, and not just virtues, but internal states that go along with the virtues. So is that an experiential reality for you? Well, probably as we talk about the narrative that’ll come up, because it is for me at points, but not all the time. So that’s an experiential reality that I would say is much more frequently true now than it was when I was younger. But yeah, it is often an experiential reality for me. And so is that also something that you have a relationship with that experiential reality that you cultivated? Yeah, so like, you know, you start off and it’s just work. It’s just things you have to do, right? But then as you choose to participate in it with sort of this conscious background of like, this is why I’m participating, this is the benefit. This is, you know, and for me, frequently when I do it, I’m also praying. So I’m talking to God while I’m doing it and saying, you know, this is for you. I want this to help these people in this way, blah, blah, blah. It’s a, it’s an experience that’s cultivated because as you. I think throughout time over years, it’s probably been somewhat conscious for me for. Oh, 30 years now, probably. So, as you’ve been doing that for 30 years, you spend time. You know, you anticipate it coming and it’s always like this anticipation of like, well, it’ll be effortful and do I really want to, but then you start doing it and you’re like, oh, this is really good. I’m glad I’m here. I’m glad I’m doing this. And there’s. There’s a piece that comes in the practice as well. So. Yeah, I would say there’s definitely been a cultivation of it. Over the years. But is there an intentional cultivation or is that something that just. Yeah, yeah, no, there is I’m one of these people where. I don’t probably have a lot of, like, unintentional things going on. Like, I’m, I’m probably overly like overly process and overly cognitive. I’m very much an introvert and. Like, I was the kind of kid when I was like, seven, I’d be laying around thinking about my death and like, what would I want to have like, what would I want to say to people and what would I write that people would read and. And for me, that process is always like. And so, who would you have to be for that to matter? And what would you have to have done for that to matter? And so I’m probably far too. Uh, introspective and conscious and intentional about stuff. So, yeah, for me, it was an intentional process. So, so you’re. You’re having this, this early life experience where. Where you put on a trajectory already and that slowly evolves into. What you now call service. So, so what’s what’s your first. Experience around around this and how does that relationship. Start to call. So for me, part of it, it’s sort of like the water that you swim in when you’re growing up because my family. Had a very strong. So, like, my family was extremely religious. So my mom’s dad was a pastor. My dad’s dad was an elder in my mom’s dad’s church. My parents from the time that I can remember, we’re doing some kind of work within the church. And then when I was. Um, 8, we moved away from where we were living and they went into full time ministry. So they went to work at Bible camps and. So, ever since I was little. There was always and that meant that we always had people in our home that my parents would be having Bible studies and feeding and. They would also do things at the church and we would be expected to come and help set up and help prepare things and help. Take things down and clean up afterwards. So there was always sort of like a background part of family culture. And so it was also the grid on which other people would be assessed. It’s like, well, they’re part of the church, but they don’t really serve. Well, you know, your relative uncle so and so, you know, they. You know, they aren’t believers, but they really do serve other people. So it was very much this category of value in the family and it structured a lot of our time. And so my 1st memories probably are. Obviously, not my 1st memories of actually helping people, but my 1st memories. Within the category of service probably would have been when I was 5 or 6 and being at church and helping with setting up and taking down and cleaning and explanations is like, well, why are mom and dad leading tonight? Oh, they’re going to go do some service at the church. And so that’s probably the earliest interaction I had with the category. So, so then it’s it’s outside of you. So, is there a point where. You experience that yourself as well. Like, where I integrated it as a personal value, or when I started doing it. Well, I do think that when it’s a category to which you look at the world, right? Like, and that seemed to be true in your family that that already is is of value to you. Right? But then. There’s a moment where you where you start looking at yourself to that life. I would say that probably started when I was. Maybe somewhere between 10 and 12. Um, once my parents were doing their camping ministry work. Then I started, um, volunteering and helping in the summers too. So my summers would be working in a kitchen and cooking, cleaning, doing dishes, all of that stuff for the campers. And I definitely at that point had for sure had shifted over to the thought of, like, this is active for, like, for God, for other people. It’s not just, I’m helping because my family’s doing it. Because I didn’t have to my siblings didn’t all do it and they would do different things and so. Yeah, at that point, it was definitely an intentional act. I don’t think it had as much depth as it does now. It was more of a. Probably simple, it was just, I wanted to please God, please my parents. It would be a good thing to do. I generally, I, at that time, I generally had more like. Anxieties around my own moral quality. It’s like, am I a good person? Will I be a good enough person? Will God be pleased with me? Sort of these categories of like, approval and acceptance and. A really deep awareness of my need to. Be submitted to a bigger pattern and fulfill my role within that pattern with the best. The best of intentions in those in those offerings. For that to be a value and so at that point, it was definitely like an intentional. Active giving. So is there a way that you got feedback? Like, is that did you get that to God? Or did you get that to self? Affirmation or to your parents? I got a lot of feedback from people, which certainly didn’t help hurt. You know, there was a lot of adults who would be like, oh, you’re helping in the kitchen. That’s really, really good. Thank you. You know, it’s, it’s great to see kids helping to like a lot of those kind of comments. I don’t. The whole like, did I get affirmation back from God? It’s really complicated because I’ve never been somebody who’s like, heard from God or had a word from God or some kind of like a mystical. I mean, that would have been cool, but it just never happened. So. There was no, like. Something coming back to me. Which in some ways for me made it even more important to be like, well, I don’t I don’t hear anything coming back my way, so I got to make sure I’m like carrying my side of the load because. I know I won’t be able to do it 100% the way I should, but at least if I can at the end of the day, say. Well, I really did my best and then I, I can sleep well. Even if I’m, I don’t know if well, ultimately, I’m like, well, I know it’s not enough, but it was the best that I could do. But, yeah, I didn’t get like a divine affirmation or something and my parents appreciated it. You know. They thanked me, they said that it was good and they were proud of me and the end of the summer. I think they bought me a bike 1 year because they were glad about what I’d done. So I certainly had like cultural and family approval for participating. So there’s a element of anxiety behind what you’re saying. What was that like actively present or was that just like. Argumentative motivation. No, no, when I was a kid, it was very much present. Like. My family was more fundamentalist Christians and so there’s always this like. Drive of what what would be good enough and and nothing will be good enough, but you still have to do everything that you can and I certainly had a sense of God’s. Anger as a child and I feel like well. So my mom always likes tell the story about how when I was a kid, I. When I was like, 3, I was just as I was like, I’m not going to church anymore. I’m just not going. I hate God. And she’s like, every Sunday, I’d say, I’m not going to church and I hate God. And then I said, well, if you’re going to live in this house, you have to come to church and I’d say, okay. And then I’d go to church and. I wouldn’t make a fuss at church, but I. I certainly was not a fan of God when I was very small and then I remember having a. A like a talk given at the church for like, for the kids and I was one of the kids and they talked about hell and I was like, oh, no, well, I don’t want to go to hell. So I bet I guess I need to get on God’s good side and become a good servant so that I don’t go to hell. And then that was like, that was kind of the frame and the driving motivator. Until I was probably in my late teens, early 20s, and I actually developed a more. Rich understanding of Christianity and my faith and. But yeah, when I was young, there was a lot of anxiety connected with it and sort of a sense of needing to. Resolve that through obedience essentially. So is it you said you had a sense of God’s anger is that is that a communication that you did get from God or is that an anticipation that. No, again, it was probably more just the. The church culture, so it wasn’t, you know, I didn’t have a personal sense of God’s anger to me, but. Like, in some kind of felt experience, but more that this is the framework that we understand faith through and very much there was this like. You know, if if you aren’t chosen by God and saved, then you’re going to hell and that will be eternal torment, which will really suck. So you better not go there. So. If you don’t want that. Like, here’s your marching orders basically. Yeah, but it wasn’t like I had an experience of the divine and the divine anger or something like that. So. When growing up with service always something that was associated with church or like the school factory. Like, the school factory. Okay, so a complicating factor is I was homeschooled until I was in grade eight. So I was at home. All the time and then once my parents went into ministry full time, we also didn’t always go to the same church. So they would go to different churches because there was multiple churches that would support the ministry that they were running. And so they would go around and kind of. Stay in touch with everybody that way, but it meant I didn’t have a different community outside of my family. Probably until I was in grade. Grade eight and then I went into public school. Right, I’ll take it from there. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then. The school that I joined. It wasn’t one of their primary values, like service. Their primary values were courtesy and respect to those were there like the school motto is courtesy and respect, but it was definitely a tertiary value of the school because they would have food drives for the poor and they would have. Service trips where you’d go out and like, pick up garbage on the streets to like, keep the town clean. Not that there was almost any garbage there. Anyhow. It was like this very small, very clean rural. Town. But it was an aspect of the school, which was very non spiritual. I think in that school, there might have been two Christian teachers, but like, they were all atheists or agnostics. There wasn’t like a Christian presence in the school. And at that point for me, it was still sort of like, well, it’s maybe not consciously like Christian, but it’s like, well, this is good for society. It’s good for our community. I’m happy to do it. And I think that it’s good for people. And so it was. Probably because I lived in such a close spiritual system before that, it was probably some of the first times where it was explicitly not Christian service that I participated in. But it didn’t, it didn’t feel particularly different because it was still. Work being done for other people, so. Yeah, yeah. Probably the first place that I went where it wasn’t a reinforcement was when I went to we moved to California and I lived there for a year. And so I was in high school there for grade. 10, and it probably it wasn’t as much of a deal in the California high school, but my mom was working at a church there and so we were, of course, expected to help with church services. So, I was in high school there for a year. And so it wasn’t as much of a deal in the California high school, but my mom was working at a church there and so we were, of course, expected to help with church events and that kind of thing. So I still had that as an element, but. But, uh, but probably the 1st community that I was involved in where it wasn’t a value was that high school in California. And how did it affect you? Is that a divergence from. From the way that you were living, like, did you find a new way of. Of expressing yourself, or or was it something like, oh, no, no, I’m going to find a different outlet for that same. Impulse. Well, I think already by that point, it was already like a. Like, it was already part of my character at that point somewhat. So, so, like, I would automatically after classes, like, help clean up and tidy things up and pick up things and whatever, because it’s just sort of what you do. You know, it’s just kind of like, ingrained already at that point, so it wasn’t probably a value, but it was, it was a personal value. And so it kind of was unconscious at that point, more intentional, like, oh, I’ll do these things. I had an outlet for that with the church still. But. It may. It’s hard to say, because it was like a formative year in other ways anyhow, like. It was the 1st time I had lived in America. It was the 1st time I had lived somewhere like. Canadian culture in California culture was really different. So. It was the 1st time I’d lived around women who had makeup on all the time. That was bizarre to me. It was the 1st time I was around people who had a very different standard for modesty. Like, even like, not in the Christian community, most Canadian women, at least are cold most of the time. So it’s like, you’re not, you know. People tended to be pretty modest and then you go to California and I’m like, holy crap, people’s butts are hanging out of their shorts. They’re like, everything’s out there and intentionally show. So, like, a lot of like. Just sexual displays and sexual competition and like. Just stuff that I wasn’t probably ready for. So, like the California high school. So there’s like. Students who are sexually active with each other on campus that you might run into. Different like, racial issues that I had never run into, like, in Canada, we have stuff between 1st nations and the rest of like. The Caucasian population, there’s like, some tensions there, but on campus, there’d be like. Gangs of like, Latino girls and black girls, and they’d start screaming and like, fist fights and the earrings would come off and they’d go at each other. And I had like. Nothing I also had never lived in like, a big city. Right? So there’s like, racial stuff, sexual stuff, like, all of these other. Factors that were just sort of, I think. Yeah, I think I had a lot of like, absorbing and learning that I was doing on like, a social interpersonal level. So. The, the service stuff felt more like. This is a safe place where I know what to do. It’s like, I can operate in this space and so. It probably it probably function more as something like a. Yeah, it probably it probably was kind of functional because then I could hang out after class and help clean up the classroom and the teachers were happy with that and they kind of chat with me a little bit while I tidy things up. And then the other more introverted students tended to like, hang back as well. And then I could kind of have some relationships with them. And so. It probably like, functionally was super socially helpful because it gave me a space that allowed me to relate to other people in an otherwise like, completely foreign social context. So, so, yeah, I think that that’s really important to give you a structure. And and in some sense. And and in some sense, it’s always appreciated, right? Like, when people do work for you, it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Do more of that, please. So, so it’s a way in into into a social dynamic. So, so, yeah, like, I wanted to get into that because like, I could also imagine that it takes a lot of time. Right. Like, so, so you’re constrained in in your social context in some way. And yeah, and I, I also think. It puts you in in a in a certain social sphere of people. And so do you think that. That beneficial for you like. I think so. Like, what I found. So, I definitely learned this young with my parents doing camp ministry. It’s that you have the class of the people who help and do in the class of people who just. I don’t want to call them participants. It’s more like the class of people that are consumers. Yes. Yeah, there we go. And so if you’re in the class of people who help and do, you automatically are given more power. You get more freedom and you get more control, even though on the front end, it seems like you do more work. So, I did so I did camping service for. Let’s think 7 or 8 years and at 1 point when I was 16, I decided to go to a different camp as a camper because I was like, I’m always the one working. I should go and I’ll be a camper 1 week. And it was the worst experience. I hated it. I was like, oh, I just I wake up and they tell me to I do the activities. They tell me to. This sucks. Like, I would way rather do the work and then I have the freedom to do what I want and the control to go where I want and you get the relationships with the other staff members. And, and so I learned fairly young that if you’re the person who. Serves and helps and does you actually then on the back end get. More agency. So, yeah, there’s also something else that springs out to me because. I think the realm of people that you associate with is also. Old, right? So you’re you’re you’re. Absorbing something above your age in some way. Well. You’re also getting excluded from the things in your age, maybe a little bit. Oh, that’s very true. Because it meant that the teachers were happy for me to be around. It meant that, like, at camp when I’m 12, the other people in the kitchen who are helping are like 16 to 18. and so those are the conversations I’m having or at least I’m like, listening in on. So it definitely had a social level to it. You’re right. I hadn’t thought about that. And then you’re talking about this freedom. So what is this freedom for? Because in some sense, the service is actually really constraint, right? Because you’re in a structure and you have to participate in what’s there. So what is this freedom? So, yeah, like, I mean, if I take. I’ll use Bible camp again, because it’s easy. So, like, the constraint is, like, you’re up at 6 AM, you’re making breakfast. So that. Means you’re up before everybody else, because they just have to get there for breakfast. And then it’s probably 8 hours of real work in the day to make the food. Prep it, cook it, because we would also like, make the bread by hand. Like, we did. Like, the whole thing, so it was like a full, like, it was real. Work. But then the freedom is, you know, you get. When you’re, let’s say, after lunch, I would have like, 2 hours between when lunch was done and when I had to start supper. Or not start separate, but do the final final parts for supper. Well, during those 2 hours, I can do whatever I want and then after the dishes are done for separate the rest of the evening, I do whatever I want. And I’m considered responsible because I do all of these things that I show up when I have to. And then that means nobody keeps tabs on me. So I can go to the lake when I want. I can take out a kayak when I want. I can go. Hang out with the guys who do maintenance and we can do whatever we want to do. So you have, because you’re behaving in a way that is responsible and contributing, you’re treated as somebody who’s responsible and you aren’t managed like a child. Even if you technically are still a child, I was even. You know, the teenage campers would be much more managed than I was as a person younger than them because everywhere they go people know where they are and they’re told what they have to do. And I am somebody who really values. My own control and my own freedom whenever I had to work a job where it was like, you sit here and you do this thing. You know, I. If it’s like, you know, answering telephones or whatever, it drove me crazy. I would much rather have a job where I’m in like, there’s tasks that have to be done and I decide how they get accomplished and in what way to accomplish them. So, for me to have freedom over my time and control. Is I wouldn’t say it’s the only reason that I would do the service stuff, but it definitely was a secondary benefit. And a pretty strong one was was that a thing that you were aware of that you had a conscious relationship to. I didn’t I don’t think I was aware of it the 1st, 2 years, because I was just experience that was in it. And so I wasn’t I didn’t see the connections between those things. But I would say by the time I was 15, I was aware of it. And is that a thing that you end up manipulating as well or is that something you’re grateful for? Uh, yeah, that would definitely be something that I would manipulate. Well, manipulate, I would say use manipulate has such a negative connotation. But, yeah, I have. Made the choice over the years then to be the person who. Plans and prepares and serves because that means that I am able to be engaged and involved in the way that I want. I, I really hate the role of the passive consumer. Like, I don’t live in that space because I. I, I don’t find much value there personally. So, I do it’s not like I don’t like, I’ll listen to YouTube videos and I’ll whatever, but for me, that has a limited time where it’ll hold my attention before I want to be. The person who has the conference or. Has a conversation because if I like listening to what you have to say, I’d rather talk to you than just listen to you. I’d rather. You know, I, I can enjoy that stance, I suppose, up to a certain point and then. If I can’t then participate more fully or drive it in a direction that seems valuable. Then I don’t know why I’m spending my time there. And and that’s not to say that there’s no reason for other people, but for me, I get very like, itchy feet. Yeah, I’m trying to find a good question around. What what this extra thing is that you’re finding in the participation? So maybe that’s the question. The extra thing I’m finding in the participation, maybe say that so I know what you’re. Well, like, like, like, obviously you’re making a distinction between the consumer and and the participant. And the having of control. So I’m trying to. Flash that out a little bit more. Well, you get to shape it if you’re the one who’s doing it. Like, like, with everything right? So. Like. As a mother, let’s say. I could, I could, I could, I could. As a mother, let’s say I could. Send my kids to daycare and I could have them. Have my husband do a lot of the childcare or I could have like, I could basically say I would like to consume my children. I would not like to serve my children. So I will pawn off the as much of the efforts of serving my children as possible. I’ll get my mom and my mother in law and my husband and I’ll pay people and I’ll make them serve my children. And I just want to consume my children. I just want to see them in cute little outfits and have nice times with like, mini golf and nice family memories where I participate in the joy of their childhood. But I don’t have to serve them. Well, I could do that and I think plenty of people do that. But what happens is you end up with. Almost no control over who they are and what they do because you’ve given all the control away. So. With service also comes agency, because if I’m the one who’s hands in serving my children. One, they’ve been served by me, which means they’ve experienced care and love from me because they’ve seen me making their food. They’ve seen me folding their clothes. I’ve been the one giving them baths. So they there’s all of that. Interpersonal connection, but also then I get to decide what it looks like. So I decide what they’re punished for or not. I decide what books we read. I decide where we go and what we look at and what we talk about and what we’re not allowed to talk about and where we don’t go. And so I get to. Shape those things and so obviously that’s a much stronger example because it’s my children, but it’s similar with other things too. So I have a book club that I run and I decide what book we read and I decide who’s invited and who’s not invited and when there’s food. I either make it or I say, hey, let’s make let’s have a list, but even in choosing to have a list, I’m deciding that I want to have a spirit of hospitality and I’m deciding that I want everyone to participate in that spirit. And so I’m. When I when I’m the one who serves, I also become the one who has control. So. What is the control that you want to manifest like? Me yeah, well, there’s two things that are in my mind, right? So one is you have a vision. Right, like, if you want to have control without a vision, then. It goes goes bad, right? And then. And then, secondly, I do get a sense that. That it has to be your vision in some way, right? But it’s really important to you that that it’s your vision. So there’s there’s there’s like maybe somewhat distrust or whatever in the competence of of others. Oh yeah yeah I think that’s healthy though. I’m not making any judgments. I do also want to say we’ve gone down the side rope, but I don’t consider this to be like the primary motivation for service. It just happens to be a secondary gain, which I agree. I have. Leaned into and am aware of, but it’s not the primary motivation because if it becomes the primary motivation, you kill the thing. It’s like you squeeze the sand out of your hand. So it can’t be the primary motivation because then it’s not service anymore. It has to be true service for it to actually then give you that secondary gain. So I’m happy to go down that path. So long as we’re aware that it’s like. Well, I don’t think they exclude each other, right? No, no, but since we’re talking about it more, it feels like it’s over shadowing in some ways, but that’s fine. No, I like I don’t want to have have have that overshadow anything, but I do want to. Because because like, yeah, right? Like it can be that other people are incompetent in creating the right situation and that the responsibility falls upon you because you’re competent right? And that there’s nothing wrong with that. And it’s actually good because if you’re competent, then your contribution is worth more than the other contribution. Right? So. But like, no, there’s no negative there. I’m just. No, no, it’s not negative. It’s just it’s bumping up against my own conception of what services in the role it’s had in my life. That’s all. And so. But now I can’t remember your question. Well, the question was, well, that this element of control, right? And and division, right? Like, what are you shaping it into? Okay, so another another way that service gives you control is that it helps you to manage other people’s emotions, at least in my world. So if you serve and you care for things. Other people tend to be much happier. So, if you show up and a space is in chaos. And you begin to bring order to that chaos people’s emotions tend to become much better regulated. They calm down because they don’t have as many things distressing them. In their environment and so that’s also another example of that. Yeah, I can give you a few. So, like. Probably where I learned that is with my mom when I was a kid, when she’d be upset. I would just clean the house and as the house got cleaner, she’d become less stressed out. Because her space is less chaotic and. Not only is it less chaotic, but also then she doesn’t feel anger and shame about the fact that her home is not clean. So, it regulates that, but also with kids, if you have a bunch of kids in your house, your kids are other people’s kids and the space is messier. They become less obedient. They just the chaos breeds chaos. They are less regulated. But if you have a clean home and then you ask them to do things and you. You know, you provide direction in that way. They are much more likely and willing to follow direction. I’ve gone over to plenty of ladies houses who were feeling overwhelmed and stressed out and we’d be chatting and then I’d start. Picking up or doing their dishes for them while we talked and as that happened. They would kind of calm down and then they’d say, oh, I feel so much better now that that’s done. That was stressing me out. That was whatever. And so that’s mainly women. Well, most of my life is women. Okay. So, you’re right. I don’t know necessarily the effect it would have on guys that might be very different. I know my husband’s much happier when the house is clean. Well, yeah, I do think that there’s a difference. I’m not saying it wouldn’t work, but if it works, it works differently for sure. Oh, I’m sure. Yeah, I’m sure. So, so that that is also interesting. So, so you’re. It’s the servers also a thing that puts you in a female dominated environment. Not necessarily because. So, as I got older and I did different kinds of service, like, when I was when I would do things like. Jail ministry or feeding the poor, you know, like having them in and giving them food or. Work projects, building houses, helping with that. Those would be. I don’t think it was even split for those things. It was more men. Did you feel that they had a similar relationship to service? Yeah, I did. I felt like that’s why they were doing those things. Yeah. So you could find each other on that. So, yeah, like, are we at the end of high school now, somewhat? I think so. Yeah, yeah. Because that that’s always a big shift, right? Where there’s more responsibility on these shoulders. Yeah. So for me, after high school, I was a little bit more of a. Obviously, the question of like, career comes up. So what I wanted to do was I wanted to become a doctor and I wanted to travel overseas and do. Medical service for like my life. That was the idea was I’ll learn how to do this and this is the best way to do it. Medical service for like, my life. That was the idea was I’ll learn how to do this and this is the best way I can serve people. But it also incidentally would be a path that would give me a lot of freedom. Because I would be able to travel where I wanted within constraints, but I would have more freedom than most careers would give most people, or at least would give me. But the idea was. Yeah, serve people for my for my career, which was what I started while I started down that path. So I took a year. I had to work for a year to get. Money for school, so I worked. Well, it doesn’t matter. I worked a few jobs and they were all probably service oriented kind of jobs. And then I went to my 1st year of university, I was going for an undergrad in gerontology. Because, well, a couple of things 1, I’d done a lot of service in, like, I don’t know what you’d call them, but like, retirement homes or old folks homes. And so. I, and I’ve always done a decent amount of my service with the elderly. So, that was already an area that I felt comfortable in, but I also was aware of the fact that we have a population that will be aging and by the time I was going to be a doctor in full swing, there’d be an aging population. And so I wanted to have. Particular knowledge about the elderly. So I. Was working on my undergrad for that when I got married and then after I got married, it was like. 3 months in and I got pregnant and then. I started going over, like, the calendar and was like, okay, well. Can I care for my children and finish medical school at the same time? And I decided that I wouldn’t be able to do that and. Serve my kids the way that I wanted to so. Yeah, so at that point, the, the agenda changed and I went from a vision of like, service that would be to. Sort of the stranger people on the edges and. Shifted it to my kids, because I felt like that was the responsibility. So. Was that a hard decision or was it just, oh, no, that’s just not going to happen. Oh, it was a brutal decision. It was 1 that I probably. Because I still kind of hung on to the idea that maybe I would do that once the kids got older. And so I finished out my undergrad just to have completed my degree. So I finished my. And then well, I. Well, we can talk about this thread, but then there’s other things to go back to, but. Essentially, after that, my son went down to Pennsylvania and he got his end if and at the time the seminary offered like a matching. A matching thing for spousal scholarship. So as many credits as he took, I could take for free, which was amazing. So I was like, well, then I’ll get a degree for free because I can. So why wouldn’t I? So I got a degree in counseling. Which I had had no interest in counseling before that. So that was kind of like a huge. Shift for me and essentially I took it because it was like, well, it’s a free degree. I’m not walking away from. That on the table and then, as I did it, I realized that I actually enjoyed it. And it was a way to serve people that was emotional and spiritual care, but. Was certainly not like before that I always saw myself as being somebody who is more hands on. And I still am in the other areas of my life. Like, I. I’m a fairly pragmatic and hands on tactile kind of person. Like, I like gardening and cooking and knitting and hunting and motorcycling and karate and like, those are my. Pursuits and so for me to have a career in psychology counseling is kind of strange because it’s all the thingy talky stuff, which was not. A space that I really hung out in before then, but I did the courses and I enjoyed it and I was good enough at it. So. So that’s what I did. Praise. But even after that, I still was like, oh, but I want to become a doctor. Like, I want to become a doctor because my kids are going to grow up and then I can go back and I can sort of return to the original vision. But yeah, and so when my husband finished his doctorate, he said, well. Now’s your chance. Like, do you want to go back because I can. You know, I can work and I can take care of the kids. They were all in school at the time. Like, they still are, but like, there was none of them that were staying home. So there was like the school day where they would be gone anyhow. And. And I looked at schools and I. Crunch the numbers and I was like, no, by the time I’m done. My residency, they’ll just be graduating and so I’ll missed. Being around consistently to be their mom the way they need me to be. So, so I walked away from it, but it wasn’t until then that I really closed the door on it. Like, it. It was kind of hard for me to to walk away from that one. It. It was a source of significant distress for me for a long time, because I wasn’t planning on having kids that young and I wasn’t planning on. I’m not somebody who grew up and was like, I always want to be a mom. I just want to have kids. That was sort of like, I guess I could have kids. We’ll see if that happens. I’m very happy about how it worked out because I. I have found. At this point, I think that it’s the most valuable way that I could invest myself. But, but yeah, it’s not like that was an easy thing for me to walk away from. And another thing that you worked away from is to travel, I think. Yeah, I am. I really love traveling and I really love. I really do love helping people in a hands on kind of way. And so for me to not do that in the way that I had envisioned it has been. A sadness for me. So, there were some other stuff that you wanted to pick up on and. Yeah, yeah. Well, 1 thing you were trying to highlight that I walked by again was you were trying to highlight the fact that there’s some element of control in it and that also there’s a vision behind it. And I would say that that those aspects to it became more important to me. After I got out of high school, like, those things weren’t really significant to me when I was. Probably until I became a mom, I didn’t really care about those things. And then, and part of that is, I was only 21 when I had my kit, so it might have happened already when I got older. It’s not necessarily like a mom thing. It might just be a. I wasn’t a kid anymore kind of thing, but that’s what becoming a mom is. Initiation ritual is very true. But then after that, I very much thought, like. Just allowing things. What’s not even allowing things to be as an okay, it’s more like I felt. Responsible for the nurture and care of not just my kids, but the people around me. And because I was frequently in leadership positions within the church, I had taken on that responsibility as well. And so it wasn’t just like, I feel responsible for this. It was also that. The church had asked me to be responsible for those things and so. Until I was. Well, yes, so I want to get to the step, right? So you’re responsible for these things, right? It’s like. That doesn’t mean that, you know, how they should look like and how to act that out. Right, so yeah, that’s true. How do you get there? Like, like, what is. What is this transition and what’s driving you through that transition? Because in some sense, you’re, you’re adding a dimension, right? Like, instead of. Being fed by the environment, you’re, you’re now informing the environment and you’re doing that on the basis of certain principles. So, definitely part of it is the fact that I was a part of. Groups and communities and had relationships with individuals who had been doing this already. So I was. Definitely mentored into it, and it wasn’t just like, observed, it was things that people would talk about. Right? So I, I would be. In church groups, where you’re talking about what’s our philosophy of ministry and what’s our leadership training model and how are we going to go about this? Because what are the values that we’re hoping to. In gender within the groups within our church and what what physically concretely will we do so that those values and virtues are inculcated in people. We want to have a sense of hospitality. Okay, what will we actually do to make it so that people feel that they’ve been hosted that they’ve been cared for that will make them also want to host other people. And so probably from the time I was 14, you would be in multiple meetings a year about those types of topics. And so some of it was like a very. It’s like a mentorship into that role. That was very specific and then not just like, it wasn’t just abstract because then it’d be like, okay, and now we’re going to go run the kids club and we’re going to do all these things and then we’ll see how it works and we’ll see how it goes. And. So, there was definitely some, like, propositional. Very intentional stuff around it, but then there’s also just the things that naturally happen that nobody said would happen, but they just do because there’s people who themselves already have that sort of in patterned and then I copy them because that’s the person I’m copying. So. You know, if you have. It’s yeah, it’s just the culture within the family and within the groups that I’d be in where it’s like, this is how you. Run a book club. This is how you. Serve the poor. This is the kind of attitude you have and if you don’t have the right attitude, people will say. Hey, Catherine, you weren’t sitting with people and when or you, hey, you were sitting with those people, but you didn’t seem friendly or you. You know, that person over there, they didn’t they hadn’t gotten a drink yet and why didn’t you get them a drink? And so, like, there’s very. Like, a lot of feedback about how to do it well. And so then, when you’re told, okay, now it’s your turn, you’re going to be the one doing it. You have a template for what that would look like. So that would be one element. The other element. I want to hold on to that. Okay. There’s a social environment that actually fosters that kind of feedback that you grew up in them. Because because, like. And in modern times, like, people might consider that rude, right? When we’re like, why are you nitpicking or whatever? Right? So there’s. So, maybe the question that I have is, is how, how, how do you do that in a healthy way? Right? Like, because people are really afraid of criticism now. And I guess. So, the 1st thing is to have, I think, in a relationship established where that’s part of what you’re doing. So, I would have people where it’s like, they were like, officially, like, that’s my mentor and I would ask them to mentor me and they would say, yes, I will mentor you. And then. I would ask for feedback and I would say, when we’re doing these things, can you let me know what you think? So, some of it is have when you have a relationship established where that’s explicitly what you’re looking for. Then there’s freedom to give that feedback like my oldest son, he’s 16 and he’s. We have an older guy who is mentoring him and teaching him how to do metal working at the same time. And so he gives him plenty of feedback on how to behave and. What to do and the attitudes and. All of that stuff on top of whatever he’s doing with the metal working. So, I think part of how to do it is you just explicitly say, this is what we’re doing and part of the point is developing your character as a person. Like, that’s a huge part of what we’re here for. So we’re going to talk about your character in and this happens to be the context in which we’re doing it. My parents were extremely. Focused on developing good character in us as kids and so. Which I, I think was good and so that was just a part of normal. Life at home and so it wasn’t bizarre now it didn’t doesn’t mean it didn’t hurt. I’m definitely somebody who I’ve had to work through being a people pleaser, which is probably not a surprise given the fact that. Well, everything else you’ve heard about me. So, I definitely had to work through being. Overly agreeable, so, yeah, it always hurts for an agreeable person when somebody is like, hey, you didn’t do that very well, but. It’s good it helps you, you know. It helps to develop a resilient ego. And it helps to develop humility and so, yeah, it’s kind of painful, but. When you when you have a mental framework where. That’s the point then that’s not bad. I think at that at that age, probably the way I would have put it is. I see myself as sort of like a. A statue in the marble and there’s a lot of chunks that have to get chipped off to get to something beautiful underneath. But I really want that beautiful thing underneath, and I want it to be something that can endure. And this is probably a lady thing, but I was like, I’m going to get old and at some point, I’m not going to look very nice and. The things that I value my health and my beauty, those things will go, but if I can have beautiful character, then that would make that something that I want. I would like to be an old lady with beautiful character when I’m like, 85. And so, and that was like a goal from a very young age. And so. I knew the only way to get that is to cut away all the crap and. Refine what’s there and. That requires getting feedback from people and taking it seriously and acting on it. So, like I said, I was a very seriously minded child. So. There’s you explained part of the vision that came from waters. I still want to have the part of the vision that’s coming from you. Like the vision of a space where, like, what am I leading all the service towards? Well. I like my own motivation for why. Well, like, so I’m having this conversation with you. I’m obviously having a vision of what I want to get out of. I’m not going to get what I want, right? Because you have to cooperate. But I’m creating a space in which I think your cooperation is going to manifest. Beautifully and hopefully also in the way that I want. Right. So, yeah. So I have a sense of how I’m doing that. Like I have a vision. Oh, right. Like there’s. There’s something there that bears fruit and I want to see the fruit. So, like, I want to get into, I guess, a little bit of your sense making, right? Like, like you’re saying, well, I’m at this person’s house and you’re feeling upset. And then I decide to do the dishes. Right. Like, I can tell you, I would never do that. Right. So, like, I don’t see that. Like, there’s an inability for me to relate to the world in that way. So, yeah, like, that’s kind of where I try to get it. Okay, so I’m going to have to back up a little bit. Because once I was in my early 20s, probably 20. Like I said, I shifted at that point from being motivated by I need to be obedient and do what’s good so that I don’t go to hell. Which drove more of my service before that. So, the sense making before that would have been different because it was more along the lines of these are things that will make people happy. And this is something that will make God happy, but often more motivated by, like, I wouldn’t say it had the fruit of the spirit, like, joy, peace, patience, gentleness. There was maybe I certainly was hardworking and gentle, but it didn’t have some of the other qualities that are valuable, like the joy and the peace and those other kinds of elements. So, once I got into my 20s and I. I engaged more with the love of God, which my husband was instrumental in bringing more of that into the forefront for me, which was instrumental in me wanting to marry him because I was like, oh, love. This is a good thing. But that that shifted my motivation to because. Then, when I was in a place more where I felt. The the foundation of my identity and self was more the love of God being united to God and then service came as an outflow of that then that shifted things because then I instead of seeing myself as someone there. To keep God happy by doing the things I had to do, it shifted into seeing myself as. Like an emissary or an agent of God, where it’s like my my goal is to bring the character of God into reality and the character of God is his goodness, his long suffering, his patience, his faithfulness, his. His truth and honesty. So there my vision for myself, like my identity is somebody who brings the kingdom of God into reality by having his character expressed in every place that I go. And that’s what I did. That’s kind of how I think of myself so. When I’m in a situation where I’m talking with a lady and she’s stressed out and we’re at her home with her kids. In my mind, it’s like, well, how, how do I bring that kingdom of God into reality right now? Well, I want her to be heard and I want her to be comforted and I want this place to be more orderly and I want the children to be calm and happy. And so that becomes my agenda instead of my agenda being well I’m here so that you can listen to me and you can meet my social needs and you can. Help me process this problem that I’ve been having at work. Those aren’t my goals because I always have the same goal and it’s just it’s it’s. Obviously that manifests different in different situations right so it’s like yeah when I’m hanging out with my 16 year old son. That’s not going to be how it manifests we’re going to talk about airsoft and we’re going to play video games and then maybe we’ll go for a walk in hilltop and we’ll talk about the world. Some issue with his friends like because that’s the way that you would bring the character of God into the moment there because that will serve him because that’s what he needs. So my that’s my sense making like that’s how I. Okay let’s make it concrete how would you serve me how would I serve you. That’s why I’m here. That is that is a good well yeah yeah well okay well. Are there are there actually adjustments that you’ve made during the conversation in order to serve me. Oh of course. Give an example well I mean. You okay so I came here. Intending to do that to. To as you said give you what you want if it was in the balance. Well, I mean you I okay so I came here. Intending to do that to to as you said give you what you want if it was in the bounds of what I could give you because I. I believe that what you’re doing here is good and I know you somewhat and want you to do well and move forward in your goals because they seem to be good goals that are valuable and. So my intention was to come and be present with you and track with what you were looking for and try to follow that line with you and there have been times where you wanted to talk about things or go down lines that I hadn’t initially thought might come up and so I’ve tried to to do that for you. That’s it that’s. That’s. Every answer is correct so it’s yeah it’s because what am I trying to do I don’t have to explain that but. I well I want to give people. I need an even myself because I’m actually curious right. Okay. I want to get a sense of the way of being right that that’s conducive right and I yes right like I think. we’re all trying to bring heaven to earth in some ways and. And how do we conceive of our role in in that right and that right like you were talking about your ability right like there’s also a set of skills that you have and your home right and you have to. To use them. So yeah. So yeah. And and we’ve been talking in this corner of the Internet a lot about the divine feminine right like this this aspect of of the femininity where where you’re creating space to happen and I thought the example of doing the dishes or cleaning in order to manifest a level of peace or something. That that that gave the stability for for bigger things to manifest I think I think that’s really powerful right and I guess my my ambition is to. To get people to to feel into that. Yes. I can talk about more of that sort of thing if that’s helpful. Yes, please. So yeah, obviously, like you said there are hopefully. Everyone wouldn’t use that language, I suppose, but everyone is trying to bring the kingdom of God to earth, whatever they imagine that to be. And so a lot depends on what I imagine that to be and what I think the mechanisms are that allow that to happen. So. I for good or for ill always believe that spaces that are well ordered and are beautiful are much more conducive to. Other good things manifesting so. For me, it’s sort of like a. I can do other things if I have to, but until the space I’m in is ordered. I won’t feel like I’m able to fully participate in whatever is happening there. And I think that that’s the case for a lot of people, especially if the space isn’t your space. Like, if I go to somebody else’s house and. And I can’t tidy it because it’s not my home and they haven’t given me relational permission. I kind of have two options. I can choose to block it out. And then attend to whatever’s happening while I block it out, but that requires some level of conscious engagement to like, choose to not care. And then attend to whatever’s happening while I block it out, but that requires some level of conscious engagement to like, choose to not care. And I know there’s lots of people who just don’t notice or care about those things. But for me, I notice and I care. And so I have to sort of like, consciously block it out or. Or if I have enough of a relationship with them, I can do something about it and I can clean it. But that means that I’m thoughtful of the fact that for other people. For them to come over to my home, if it’s orderly and beautiful, then their mind is able to move on to other things and they won’t be distracted by. You know, my laundry or my dishes or whatever could be laying around. So, I also have the same thought with my children and my husband. And so a primary. Agenda point for me always is to have the space be. Orderly and clean and the way that works for me is I tend to put on myself the things that I. Like, if there’s going to be a burden born, I’d rather be the one to bear it, which means if there’s clutter and messes, I’ll put it in my office and the things outside of the camera view will be cluttered because. I’d rather have the junk in my space that I’m the one who has to tolerate it and then I can navigate it then make everybody else have to tolerate it. But I, I try to do that with with everything. So if I’m going to run a group, or if I’m going to. Plan a big gathering or whatever right at the front is going to be figuring out what is the physical space look like. Like, can I keep. Can I keep the visual stimulus to a minimum now? Probably an element that adds to this is I have a lot of people in my family who are on the autism spectrum. And so there’s a lot of folks where if there’s too much. Going on and there’s too much disorder, it will be extremely dysregulating for them. And so I need to keep that kind of. Visual audio simulation lowered. To a level that would be manageable for everybody. And so I’m conscious of that when I’m trying to plan things to for bigger groups. So, for me, I kind of. I’m like, if my goal primarily is to nurture something in the person, I first need to put them in a space that will be. Not overwhelming, but I need to make sure that I’m not over stimulating the person. So, I think that’s the first thing I need to do is I need to make sure that I’m not over stimulating the person. So, if I want to be able to do that, I definitely need to. So, I think that’s the first thing I need to do is I need to make sure that I first need to put them in a space that will be not overwhelming. It will be hopefully beautiful because that not just doesn’t. Stimulate negative things, but it actually draws them into something positive and it. Also is a thing that makes people usually feel more honored. They’re going to be much more open to other things, like. Being willing to talk about whatever has actually been challenging to them because they feel like you’re actually attending to them and you actually care for them. And the best way to. Sort of start a relationship of trust is with. Physical cues that you are attentive to their needs because it’s then it’s more likely that you might attend to the other needs that they have. So, for me, the physical always kind of has a bit of like a primary and I mean, that’s not always that you want to sometimes you want to have an exciting. Situation you’re trying to have a party, so you want to, you know, provoke different emotions or something. So it’s not like it’s always that, but especially with. A lot of the kids in my in my circles. Having things not be too stimulating is important. Yeah, words stood out to me used to would provoke. So. Right, because I’m, I’m more like invoke. Right? So that. You perceive it as an active agency on your part. Yeah, I do. I am. I feel. Yeah, I feel like I have a lot of agency when it comes to. The internal states of other people, I don’t have ultimate agency over those things. Like, they have more agency than I do, but. I have absolutely seen the difference between. Like, the amount of impact I can have on somebody. By putting them in a particular space, one space or over another space, like, and this is a thing as a therapist, right? I’ve been able to have control over so you can set up your office in a certain way. And you can put certain items in it or not put certain items in it and you can have you can control the color scheme and there’s lots of work that’s been done on this, but. The, the kind of space that somebody’s in. Will significantly impact their. Their internal experience and then what they their ability to engage in different ways. So, yeah, I do feel like the physical space has a huge impact on people. And frankly, I think it’s something in the West that we under value. We tend to use it as an opportunity to either display like. Power and commercialism, like, I have look at me. I’m rich. I have wealthy things and I can afford to have somebody arrange them nicely. Or we can see it as like a. Like a pretentious kind of thing, but it’s not like a lot of other cultures where a lot of significance is placed on the arrangement of furniture and the arrangement of rooms and doors and items and. And those things are seen as having a genuine impact on the people who are there, which I think they do so. Yeah, and who pushed the T and what way and yeah, this whole structure that we’ve lost kind of. Yeah, but even though we’ve lost it, I think it was formalized in other societies, but it was only it was formalized. Those things still happen. Even if we don’t know what the. Even if we are unaware of what the grammar is. It was formalized in our society to well, yeah, our current modern society. It’s no longer formalized, but yeah, it was for sure. Yeah, so, so I start off by thinking about the, the physical environment and then. My overall goal tends to be. Something like when I’m with people, I want them to. Like, the most broad I can put it is, like, I want them to flourish. And then, depending on the person that’s going to come down to, like, really different. Expressions of what that is, but I, I go into social situations with this. The intent of benefiting them and moving them forward. On a good path, which is like, very intentional for me. Like, I pray about it before my day. I move into my day with. Intentions that are set. It’s like a conscious practice that I’ve had for probably 15 years. That’s. Because I see that as the only enduring valuable thing in life. Like, the only enduring value that I can have is loving other people and helping them move towards their. Best fullest expression of God given glory. Like, that is the best thing I can do. And so that’s what I always try to do. Now, it’s not the only thing I do, because I’m an introvert and I need time alone. And I think particularly because I am. Conscious and focused on other people when I’m with them, it’s a very energy, um, extending experience for me. And so then I definitely need time alone and time in nature and. Time where I’m just doing things with my hands and I’m not thinking. But it does mean that when I’m with people, I’m very conscious about. How I move forward and because I’m a Christian, I have. Because you’re like, what’s the frame? Like, how do you know which way to be? I’m like, well, there’s a very set. System for how to be like, there’s things that I’m told what I should do and how to be. And lots of stories that show what that looks like. And then, yeah, you have to put it into modern terms, but. When I’m with somebody, I know that. Being patient is the good path. Listening longer is better than answering quickly. Like, there’s just like principles that. That I have the benefit of being able to rely on. So, yeah, like, like, I got that there’s a. There’s something that informs you, right? But there’s always a translation and it’s not only translation to modern times. There’s also translation into your being. And yeah, like setting intentions at the start of the day sounds like a really good way to get those translations slowly shape you into. A different way of being right, but there’s also getting eyes to see right? Like, so, for example, right? Like the dishes like that’s. Not the way that I see. And without having this conversation, I don’t even know if I have access to it now, but. I have not a space for it to to realize right? And I was also thinking right? Because I, in some sense, take fundamentally the opposite approach where I’m like. Trying to highlight the boundaries. Of people right? Like, oh, you’re you’re you’re at this point. Oh, you’re at this point, right? And like. Making people aware of the boundaries is is also making them aware of who they are or how they’re manifesting right? So I’m as I was going. Added from from the totally opposite side, so it’s always. Interesting to me. Do you have a response to that? No, I, I think it’s great. I think that. I think that you need to have all kinds of ways to approach people and not everybody like, I can’t be you. Right? Everybody can only bring in the piece that they bring and that’s a good thing. So I’m like, yeah, I, I don’t think that the way that I am is the way that everybody should be and I don’t think the way I approach things is the way everybody should approach things. I think that. I would be very sad if everybody approached it the way I did. So I’m like, yeah, you do it differently. That’s I think that’s fantastic. There’s nobody left to serve. I know. OK, so yeah, like. You did your studies. You got kids. Moving you effectively. Yeah, where does that go right? Like you. Seem to end up on the Internet. Yeah, so. Yeah, I. I work as a therapist. My kids are teenagers now. My husband works as a psychologist. I’m on the Internet because I like having conversations with people that are interesting and. A lot of my local social contacts don’t facilitate the kind of conversations I want to have. My husband is happy to have the kind of conversations I want to have, but it’s nice to have more than one conversation partner. Happy to be a service. Thank you. Yeah, again, probably because I. I lean towards being attentive to people in conversation. I’m not I’m not going to be the person who’s like, we’re going to talk about what I want to talk about for 2 hours now and you’re going to sit there and listen to me because I’m going to monologue and not let you say anything. I’m not going to be that person. Oh, no. But that means that if I don’t have people in my social circles who are interested in similar things, I’m not going to. Like, force that onto them, so that’s why I end up on the Internet talking to people who have similar interests and actually want to talk about the same things. But yeah, service. Service has changed as I’ve gotten older because. Some of well, some of it is is not the motivation, but it’s realizing what’s actually effective and helpful for people. So, I talk less now than I used to because when I was younger, I thought that would be more helpful and effective and it’s not. So, I am much. My now I still do it because sometimes I can’t well, I’m not I was going to say I can’t help myself. I could help myself and I choose not to because I’m selfish sometimes, but. I try not to give advice I try not to. Fill in spaces for people as much I try to let those things hang a little bit more. Let people. I’ll try, like, I’ll reflect back to them and sort of serve their own internal process better instead of trying to direct them in what they should be thinking or doing. I, because my. Kids are older a lot more of my service to them is. Making them do things and facilitating them having learning experiences instead of. Doing things for them, because it’s it’s not serving them, which has been a good lesson again, because then that translates to people in different sort of developmental stages in different areas of their life as well. Like, yeah, it’s not always serving it’s not actually serving some people to do things for them. So that that was a shift with service are really okay. So 1 of the things I wanted to talk about that we haven’t really gotten into is. Because of this orientation, it made it very hard for me to receive care from other people. And receive service from other people, and so it was probably more my late 20s. That I had to work through that, because it was very. Um, uncomfortable for me, because the. The place I had developed security and stability was when I served other people, then it’s like, I know I’m doing the good thing and I know that I’m. Functioning properly if I’m serving so then to let someone else serve me like, this doesn’t feel good. Which is a problem because relationships need to be reciprocal at least at least a chunk of your relationships need to be reciprocal. You know, there’s. Plenty of relationships it’s fine to have where you are caring for other people, but if your closest relationships aren’t reciprocal, then that’s a problem. So, yeah, I had to go to therapy for that. That was not an easy transition for me. And then learning the limits for where you can actually serve people, because there’s some people where. Serving them to physically serving them or trying to attend their needs isn’t actually helpful for them. It just enables abuse and enables. Bad patterns and so learning to. Not try to help people and fix people. Was also something I had to learn, so there was definitely like some. Like, there was a path that I learned that was good and functional and got me social approval. Community approval and psychological security, but then at a certain point, I realized that that is not actually the best path to always be on because. Well, there’s no path that’s always the best past to be on so. So, I’m just, I’m just going to frame. Service in a different way sometimes the way to serve people is to let them serve you. Yes, that was how I ended up working through it. Actually, is that your hack? Okay, yeah, that’s my hack. It was very good and you are right on. It’s funny, like, when my kids were little, they were always family members who would come up and be like, oh, let me take the baby. And like, you, why don’t you go sit down and I had to, I would give them the baby and I would walk away because I know what they really wanted to do was hold the baby. But it would kill me because I never wanted anyone else to hold the baby. I never was like, oh, thank goodness, the break. I can go sit down. So I would have to be like, this is my way to love them. I will let them hold the baby and I can walk away. But they always tried to frame it as like, oh, this is my way to love you. And I was like, this isn’t no, this isn’t actually like. Benefiting me, but I will let you serve me because it’s service to you. So it’s funny, so hold on. No, I’m going to, I’m going to stop you right now. Okay. Okay. In retrospect, was that love for you? Them, what they were doing? Yeah, probably sometimes for some of them. Sometimes for some of them. Hold on. I’m going to reframe it again. Is the way that you were affected. A affectation of love. I’m not sure if I’m understanding your question. You’re probably not understanding me. I’ll just lay it out for you. Okay. The fact that you had to overcome this part of yourself. This is what I mean when I say I point at the boundaries for people. When you have to face the boundary and deal with the boundaries, you have to face the boundaries. Right. Like when you have to face the boundary and deal with the boundary, then you grow. Right. So them being a stressor upon you, right, is actually an act of love. Right. If done correct. And it seems like that situation was actually done correctly. So I’m, yeah, I’m just objecting a little bit to your framing there. Oh, yeah, that’s fine. Yeah, I believe that they were acting in love and I believe that. Well, I don’t know because I would say long term, did it make me I mean, it was an opportunity for me to be self-sacrificing. So that was good. That was a good thing, but I don’t think it was the goal of what they were doing. They didn’t think. It’s for her to be self-sacrificing, but it worked out that way. So that was good. But their goal was partially, at least for you to have time for yourself. Right. And part of that is you having the capacity to do that. That’s a prerequisite for. Yes, which is why I was loving of them, but it didn’t. I didn’t experience it that way because I didn’t. Yeah, I didn’t want to hold the baby. I didn’t want to not hold the baby. But that isn’t an example of me learning how to receive. That was an example of me. Learning that other people need to be cared for by me giving up the things that I want. It’s not what that was. It probably wasn’t another 8 years after that, till I really learned how to receive from people. So. Can you give me some insight? Oh, inside into that. Some insight. Oh, inside into that. Yeah, like to go to like my sister’s house, and I know that she’s prepared a Thanksgiving dinner and she wants to serve the people coming over. Like her goal is to host and serve. And so for me to show up and not pick up the dishes and not do things and just sit on the side and knit and receive a cup of coffee from her and not help her. Is a big deal and that’s what she would want me to do because she wants to serve me. Yeah, to be able to receive that took a while where it’s like, I would, I would do it because I knew she wanted to, but it like, I was uncomfortable. I didn’t like it. But at this point, I love it. I’m just happy to like, show up and drink her coffee and that. That’s great. But, but at first it. Because again, it takes you to the position of power, right? Like, you’re not in control. And so that is was uncomfortable for me at first, because then it’s. For me, like, the power is always connected with, like, am, am I being good? Am I doing what’s good? Am I. In a emotional and spiritual space that I can relax in, and I can relax more when I know that I’m the one doing the good thing. Even if it’s physically effortful, that doesn’t really matter to me. It’s like, I’m, I’m doing what is good. Therefore. I’m I feel secure in myself. And so to let to move from having to do and. Be the one acting to be able to relax and receive and. And not have to fill that single role in the. You know, array of roles I could fill and be secure and comfortable and not anxious. Was the shift I had to make when I was in my early thirties. But I don’t think I was secure enough in who I was to be able to make that shift earlier. So one thing that stands out to me is that. The fact that you took time for yourself, right? Like that that is intention, but being in service. Right? Because when you’re when you’re taking time for yourself, you’re not serving. So. You mean with the babies, you’re back at the babies? No, I’m back up. Well, just the fact that you’re an introvert, right? And that’s okay. Sure. Right. And so that’s that’s a balance that you need to navigate. And I feel like. And I don’t know why I feel like that, but I feel like that’s the same tension. That you that is happening when you’re accepting service. Of others, right? Like, like there’s. There’s a shift in what you’re privileging that that’s where we go. Right. Like, and how do you make that shift? And it seems to me that you’ve been able to make that shift in relation to yourself. Fairly well, at least I haven’t heard any issues around that. So. Yeah, do you see the distinction or the similarity? I mean, no, no, I, I absolutely agree with you. It’s definitely a shift in what you’re privileging and it’s a shift in goals. Right? Because instead of me working to. Bring the kingdom right by like. Serving it’s a shift into a receptive stance. So to me, it feels like, you know, more it’s like a masculine versus feminine, right? Like, the service is very masculine because I’m acting and I’m achieving and I’m striving and I’m creating and the receptive is feminine. It’s like, I, I’m being served. I don’t have to create. I don’t I can participate, but I don’t have to create and achieve or accomplish anything. I have to stop doing those things. Which for me requires more trust and more faith. I have to like, let go of those things. And so, yeah, am I am I. Like you said, am I shifting goals and now I’m like, preferencing my own recharging? Yeah. But the. But that shifting of goals and preferencing of things for me. Feels like a movement away from. Effortful striving towards a particular thing. So you feel that the effort is important in the striving? Yes. Okay, that is interesting. So because the way the way I conceive of that situation, right, is is when when you’re serving. You’re having a relationship to the whole of the body. And when when you’re receiving service, you’re you’re having a relationship to part of the body. Right. So. From my perspective, you can still have the. The same functional functional relationship if you shift the body that you’re participating in. You’re participating in. Right. So if if if the body that you’re participating in is the relationship between the two body parts or right, then you can still fulfill the role of service. And have the masculine affect. But in in in a different. Different realm, right? And I like I kind of like, I don’t know if I like the separation. The categories that you made, but the fact that you’re making the separation between. Physical was it emotional and spiritual right and and and that you can have service on these realms like. Yeah, do you get what I’m trying to get at that there’s this. I don’t know. It sounds to me like you’re trying to solve a problem I don’t have. So, maybe I don’t understand you, but I’m like, I. I don’t feel like there’s a. There’s not something there that feels like it’s lacking that I’m trying to resolve and so. You you may be trying to clarify terms or something, but it sounds like, oh, you could make this change in how you’re thinking about things that could be beneficial. Is what it sounds like and I’m like, yes, I’m I’m trying to. Rec have you recognize the fractal nature of your participation. I guess it’s not. Well, I like you’re saying that I’m participating within the whole group and then I’m also participating within myself. And if I can move from seeing myself as you’re participating in the relationship of the group, right, which is the thing that you’re serving right you’re serving the whole group. You have an individual relationship to a person as well, and you can serve that individual relationship right and and then you can. You can, for example, stand up and clap all thank you for your service or whatever right and then you orient the attention towards the good aspect of what is manifesting right, but. You can do that because you have eyes to see while other people don’t right and then you provide those eyes right so there’s there’s other ways in in in which you can still fulfill the role without taking over the care for the whole body. The care for the whole body that kind of what I was trying to get. Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Yeah, I can. Yeah. And you’re right, I think that those things they don’t just like shut off. So if I move to a place of like. Receiving. I can still be. I can still act in ways that are attentive to the whole in it and at times, like you said, oh, that I could shift gears and and serve the body again by putting attention somewhere and actively serve in that way. And, and I can kind of switch into that because even though I’m not maybe actively doing other things, I’m still attentive to what’s happening. Around me and I’m still aware of those dynamics. So. Yeah, that was good. Yeah, so. Yeah, like, are we are we getting to the present maybe we should focus a little bit on. Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Yeah, so Thunder Bay is definitely like the biggest event I’ve ever tried to like plan and organize and it definitely stretched me. But I would say that the. There was a lot of things that helped to make it successful, but I think that some of the things that helped were the attention to. The experience of the people who would be coming. So, a lot of the details that people mentioned were helpful to them were things that. Um, we’re because we had thought of like, okay, so when would people maybe be able to arrive and then what would they do when they got into town and then what would. And sort of trying to walk through the experience of them as they arrived and what would be beneficial. So I think that was. A chance to kind of stretch my legs that way and. Thunder Bay, it’s always like, it always feels like this whenever you host Christmas or Thanksgiving or something to like, when you host something. You’re running it, but it also means that you don’t get to like, fully enjoy the whole thing either because you’re the one who’s like, making it happen. So, you know. There were definitely times where I. Was a little bit jealous of the people who were getting to just like chat and have conversation and. Um, because a lot of my friends showed up and I wished I that I could have had time to like, catch up with people who had driven from places or, and I got to do some of that for sure. But, um. Yeah, I would say it’s another link in the chain of. Um, hosting and serving and. Providing spaces for people and trying to create. Create spaces for people to be able to. Achieve something I’m saying it so broadly, because it’s like, well, it’s not just that it’s like all these things that have like. In this chain of things, right? But yeah, it went well, I felt like we were able to serve people well and that they accomplish what they wanted to a lot of people said that they. They had accomplished what they were hoping to in their time there, so that was gratifying. Yeah, did you have a clear vision when you started out? I did actually I did. I tend to I tend to be somebody who kind of sees. What I’m wanting to accomplish and. And with people who I want people to become and. Who or who I think they are that I’m trying to help bring out or whatever. So I, I think that’s a good point. So I tend to see those types of things and so I did have a clear vision. I wanted it to be. A place that was really, really participatory, like, I did not want it to be something that was like, just a consumer space. So that the whole conference was oriented around ways that people could be as involved as humanly possible with everything happening. So that’s why we did. Airsoft and paintball that was why I had people sign up to volunteer. So then I had people volunteering to do. Moving chairs and greeting people and hosting conversations. And I would kind of direct people to like, oh, that person’s over there. They’re not talking with anyone. Why don’t you go and talk with them? Because so I wanted people to have the opportunity to volunteer and lots of people said that they didn’t want to, but more than half of the people said that they wanted to volunteer. And so volunteering and then in the structure, I don’t know if you’ve watched the videos, but there was a couple of hours of space made where people could come up and be on stage and talk to the speakers and sit down in the same format as the speakers were. So it wasn’t just like this exclusive, like, oh, we have the shiny internet people that we all watch, listen. We all watch and listen to as they talk and now they’re on stage talking again and we’re just here to receive. It was very much like, no, there’s a spot on the stage that you can be in. And then also having the meditation contemplation time, which was everybody could participate in having the estuary groups, which everybody could participate in. Having the church service with the singing and which everybody could participate in in the evening. I had like, really good musical groups in. So I really wanted it to be something where. People came and they were, we were doing something together. It wasn’t just a. I didn’t want to feel like an event you showed up to you sat in the seat and then you walked away and that was. You know, you could have just watched it on a screen and it would be no different. So that was kind of the vision. It’s like, I want everyone to come and I want them to all be a part of it and I want to have really good food and I want everybody to feel like they’re getting to connect and talk. I want people to feel honored and seen and I want them to know that, like. They weren’t just like a face in a crowd. I wanted them to like, to be a personal experience for everybody. And I wanted us to create the type of environment so that not just the speakers on stage, but everybody would be able to have really meaningful conversations. I think that was the vision and I wanted it to be done with a little bit of a sense of humor. So, and I think we achieved that it was it was great. So. Yeah, I think people really enjoyed it. I think outside of that, it also filled. Like a crystallization of. Of the space right it’s like okay like now. there’s. There’s a different aspect to to what everybody’s doing right like okay like there’s there’s a movement towards the physical right like also was in relation to the journey of. But I think getting those three people together right like these three parallel movements somewhat. And have them cross paths and and yeah it’s all just plant a banner right plant plant the flag like this. This is where we’re at. What was really necessary. It felt very much like. Like, I couldn’t have just like been like, oh, any random topic any random people I’ll just make this thing happen. It was very much more there’s already this. Tenor of conversation, the spirit these connections and I’m just trying to create an appropriate vessel. Which could allow that to take on a physical form with these people come and I just basically need to have a vessel and not get in the way. Because there’s already all this energy driving towards that kind of conversation. So, yeah, I certainly don’t feel like I, I created that or something, but. You channeled it. I did. Yeah, I did. So, yeah, so I think I think we can look towards the future. So, you’ve been talking about several. I guess, right, where. First, you have to become aware right of your relationship to to what you’re doing, then there’s the aspect of yourself. In in the service, but then also finding God or your relationship with God. I think. I think there’s a few quiet questions, because I do have a little bit of a lens here. And the question you’ve asked, is how do you kind of say these words, do you think, why some of them might be because you don’t like those or that this person either is, or. Um, I think there’s a few good directions that. That would well, there’s a few directions that would be good for me to pursue. I think 1 is. My kids are getting old enough that I can expand the circle of who. Who and how I serve so. I’ve I’ve been starting to, but I’ll be able to. Expand some things some more, so there’s I reached out to the local prison chaplain and so I’ll be able to start a women’s. Group there in the spring, so that’ll be good. I haven’t done prison ministry for. 12 or 15 now, like, 12 years, so that’ll be good. And the local food bank, I’m going to be able to be involved there. So, there’s some, some ways in which now that my kids are getting older, like, my youngest is 12 now, so I can devote more time to. Um, service that is outside of. Both my physical family and my church family and, like, in some ways, it’s like, when my kids had more needs, everything kind of had to get closer to home. But now that they’re getting older, I can start. Expanding more again without. Without minimizing what I can give to them, and I think the 1st, really big expression of that was the conference. I, I do a lot like, I work and some of that is pro bono and I do some teaching, which is also pro bono. So it’s not like service has only been within my. My family, but the easiest expression and easiest way to do that has been through my work. And so. This is a way for me to move outside of those contexts as well. So that hopefully 5 years from now will be like a steady pattern of expanding the circle of. Service outward, I would like to continue with. Things like the conference to continue to serve this online community that we’re a part of. Which I would. Perhaps somewhat arrogantly see as a service to our greater society, because I think it’s a good for society. As a whole, um. On a personal level, I think I also want to. Continue to get better at. Receiving from people, there’s always still a little part of me that, like, is slightly resistant at 1st, and then I have to become conscious of the resistance and then, like, work it through and then be like, no, no. That’s okay, I’ll let you do that thing for me. That sounds nice. And then I let myself enjoy it. So, I need to continue to expand that part. Of of myself and, like, you said, realizing that it’s a service to them, but I also. Want to not have to go through the mental hoop of thinking about that. I would like to just be a very comfortable space. Is there a little bit suspicion in there as well? For vacancy talks about the harmonics of suspicion where, like, where is this coming from? I’m not like that. I, I know that. I feel I feel like people are being caring and thoughtful. Like, that’s not the problem for me. More for me, it’s it’s a giving up of control because when you receive, you’re not the 1 in control. And so, for me, it’s a control issue. Yeah, but I’m going to bite down on this one a bit. They’re like the control aspect, right? Because if you if you would say, well, they’re there. I trust them right completely, right? So I’m not suspicious of the way that they’re manifesting, not of their intentions, right? Because I want to make a distinction between the intentions and the capacities, right? Then you could make an argument that it could just flow into the agency of the order without frustration. Right. And so, at least for me, right, I’m projecting a little bit. It’s that I don’t I don’t trust that flow to happen naturally, independent of the intention, because. Yeah, right, like, like, I, I think I know better or I know myself better or whatever. Yeah, I’m I’m going to say that’s probably a little bit of projection because for me, it’s not a mistrust of the person. It’s a shift of who I am in the story. Right. It’s an identity thing for me. So the place in the story that I’m comfortable being is the 1 who gets I’m comfortable being the person who is serving. It’s much more uncomfortable for me to be the 1 who’s receptive in the scene. It’s just it’s just harder for me and so it’s not it’s not a it’s not that I think they would do something wrong or harmful or it’s not exactly the way I want. It doesn’t have anything to do with that stuff. It’s what is the role in the narrative? What role am I as it plays out and I. At this point can comfortably sit in the role of. The receptive person, but it’s still frequently like a conscious shift I have to make. And I just would like it to get to the point where it’s not a conscious shift. So, so, like, for me, a lot of. In grained deep psychological issues that I’ve had to work through come with, like, deep feelings of personal shame. Right and so, when you feel ashamed. It’s very uncomfortable to be the person who receives something. So, that’s the connection for me. It’s not it’s not a suspicion thing. It’s a shame thing. Which is why I went to therapy. So, yeah, yeah, I’m not really a simple person. So, it’s a different. Yeah, it’s a different thing. Yeah, so, so a little bit about the shame, right? Like, shame is related to a standard, right? So, I guess standard is also related to your vision. If shame is very much a social emotion, right? It’s like, what is your perception of how others see you? And that can be informed by the people in front of you, or it can be informed by an internalized vision of something that you received culturally or within your family culture. But it’s, it’s the emotion that you have when you believe that the people within your society reject you. So. How do you, how do you see your path out of shame? Well, like I said, I feel like. It’s much better than it was, like, I don’t feel like I’m like. So, I definitely had seasons where I was extremely depressed and extremely overwhelmed by shame. And I’m not there anymore. I haven’t felt significantly depressed in. Like, years, so for me, I wouldn’t say that I’m. I need a path out from shame. I feel like I. I have gone a long way down that path already. And for me, the path out was a couple a couple of things. 1 was. Allowing my husband’s love for me to sort of be a doorway into. Experiencing myself and seeing myself as someone who’s lovable. And valuable and so. That was a, a tangible manifestation of. Greater love that I was able to experience and then linking that. With a deeper trust that God loves me and that it’s not just that he wants my service or my obedience, but that there’s. Genuine affection there, that was a. A propositional shift, but it’s also an identity shift. Which started when I was in my mid 20s, but I, I had to work through more. As I got older, is that analogous to a shift of authority for. Your identity, sorry, is that analogous to shift in what. Authority of your identity, like the source. Yeah, yeah, that that. Goes very, like, it goes very similarly hand in hand with the, I need to serve so that I’m not in the category of bad people. Shifting over to I serve out of an identity as somebody who. Is is loved and honored. That’s it that was a shift, but because the 1st identity had been ingrained for a very long time, it just, it takes a long time. For the other shift to kind of take over and so. My, I think at this point with shame. Probably what I need to do is still spend more time. Leaning into that, it helps with the practical, like. When I choose to receive, it is. Ongoing, like, added experiences of being cared for and that that’s a positive thing and that that is not a bad thing. And so the more I do that, the more that builds up to sort of this weight of experience of. Being loved and that’s good. If that makes sense. But also, I think. Probably spending more time. Contemplating the love of God and spending time, like, allowing myself to be present with that. Instead of sort of, like, shifting away from it. It’s good quick idea of what that what you’re contemplating them. Like, how does it look like the love of God? Honestly, I don’t think it has to be complicated. I think it’s just. Reading passages about God’s love. You know, spending time when I’m walking. Thanking him for his care for me, thinking him that he loves me. Sort of that mental reinforcement of things that I. Believe and I sent to, but are not where I spend a lot of my time. Like, a lot of my time in prayer would be much more prayer for things for other people that I want for them. Thanking God for things that he’s done or traits that are inherent to his nature. So it’s either like, looking on the beauty and saying that’s good and I value that or. Thinking about others and wanting good for them, but moving into a space more frequently where. I’m conscious of God’s affection for me and I value it and I’m grateful for it. I think that would probably be. A beneficial way for me to spend some time and would probably take me as you say, further down the path away from shame. So, is it do you have a sense of where you’d end up when when you remove these obstacles like like. What’s the superpower that you’ll let it to achieve? Superpower. Well, as I’ve gone down that road, I’ve been happier and more at peace and. I’ve found it easier to tolerate other people’s anger easier to disagree with people. So, I imagine it would be more of that, you know, more of a sense of peace and joy and. More of a freedom to serve out of. Place of just caring gratitude and less. Ever feeling like I need to serve to. Be something because I need to fix a problem. With myself, that’s not much of a thing, but I would imagine the. It would become less of a thing the more that I continue down that path. Probably just continuing to feel more free. I would assume. Free from what? Free from my own negative emotion. Yeah, free from my. Go ahead. Yeah, what I heard you describe this is a stability, right? Like a groundedness. A way a way to bend instead of to get flown over and. Yeah, so the so the way I envision that is. Is. Through two ways, right? You you you you get your roots and and and your trunk set up work. Yeah, you get you get those in in order. But but you also get more branches and and the branches are ways to. And and and the branches are ways to to relate, right? And so you don’t have to have the one. Stunted relationship, right? Every time you can, you can have that dynamic dance that that the situation requires. So. So in some sense, I can see how going into the food bank and into prison ministry and all these things. Cultivate these these different aspects, right? And they flow into each other. And they reinforce each other and some profound sense as well. So. So. I guess I. If yeah, let’s let’s just assume that you’re taking responsibility for for this conference and you’re just going to do that in five years, right? And the next year. You get Peterson on or whatever, right? And and the year after, like, there’s going to be three other famous people. What what do you want to happen in five years in that conference? Like, what do these people like they come together like like, what do they need to achieve to to be a good for society? I think what I would hope is that. A few things, I hope a few things I hope that there’ll be more conferences with a similar flavor that. Are not just happening where I’m doing them, but it would kind of propagate out and there’d be lots of places doing similar conferences and that. What’s at the center of those conferences would be active participation in a. Respectful fruitful dialogue on whatever the topic is where. The people who are there are treated as real people. They’re not just eyes that they have something to contribute to the conversation and that’s valuable. And I have a deep belief that if we have many people contributing to the conversation and participating in it that not only will we be. Closer to finding out what’s true, but people will feel honored through it. They will experience themselves as. Having something valuable to contribute that other people see as valuable and. Listen respectfully and then adjust in some way towards and so then people are given experiences of respect and honor. People are given experiences of agency. People are experienced as having other people track their ideas and value them and. As they all do that together, there’s also an experience of connection and cohesion within the group. And my hope is that if people experience that in these groups, and then maybe start to do that with 1 or 2 friends, or can in some way bring that where they are. That it drives in the opposite direction of a lot of the negative things in our culture. It drives towards agency towards participation. It drives an experience of being honored and valued, which allows you to honor and value other people as people. And the opposite away from conversations where you’re just trying to prove a point or win an argument, or it’s about the propositional win, but it moves towards the interpersonal connection and seeing that as the win. If it can be 1 factor in moving that kind of. A social dynamic forward, that would be the best thing that that is what I would want. So, in some sense, my getting all these famous people. Wasn’t relevant. It was relevant in 2 ways 1. It was relevant because those famous people are really good at having good conversations. Like, part of what they’re famous for is having good conversations like for Vicky. Is is very good at. Wanting to draw out the best in the other person’s in what they’re saying, like, you’ll frequently hear him say, let me strengthen that argument for you. Let me tell you why that connects with these things. And that’s a good thing. Like, he works hard in conversation to bring out the best and what the other person is saying. And he values that Paul works really hard to try to connect people in their conversations with each other. He works hard to. Talk to other people and show them where they connect with other people’s ideas and why that connects with the audience and why that matters. So it was a bunch of famous people. Who are good at having a similar vision for how people could and should relate to each other. So, that was 1 reason why it mattered that it was them. But the other reason why it matters to have famous people is because it’s a part of. How the other people will feel honored, like, you feel. You feel honored when you’re with people you see as honorable. So, if you can go on the same stage as somebody that you see as honorable and everyone else in the group sees as honorable, and you can go on stage with them and talk to them and they treat you with respect. Now, you feel respected by the people in the hierarchy that you see as valuable. And so then you have a genuine experience of being honored. And you can’t just manufacture that. Like, you could have a room full of people that are completely unknown to each other and they can treat each other with respect and that would be an experience of being honored. But the experience of having that with someone you already think very well of will amplify that experience for you. So, that was another reason why it mattered that it was somebody who is famous. Is that an implicit social criticism. That we, we like that. That person at all, because, like, I don’t think we have much of those people. And if we have them, they’re. They’re not integrated. Yeah, my criticism, like, I’m very much like a small government person, but I mean that on all levels of hierarchy. So. You could imagine older social hierarchies, like, we still have it in a corporation in small towns. You still get it. But you would have had a system in the past where you would have like, the leader of the church. That’s local. You would have like, the, the Earl of the area, or the count of the area, and there would be people from the area who would be invited to have dinner with them. You know, if the priest who the people in the town all respect, because they share the same faith, they go to church. If the priest were to say, bring up Bob to the front and say, I want to honor Bob because he helped with this project and he did such a good job. Everyone should honor Bob. That would mean something. But now we, we have a, we also have a culture that is. Instead of having local hierarchies where the top can look down and bless and honor the lower aspects in a way that is. That brings honor to the whole community instead of that type of thing. We have a culture where the hierarchies are so big, we can’t engage with them personally. And they are, because they’re so large, it’s unlikely that we could actually climb that hierarchy in a significant way. You know, why would I try to be YouTube famous when there’s a billion people? Like, that’s crazy. Why would I try to do another video on some topic when 20 people have already done that? Like, why add to the noise? Like, what’s the point? It’s such a huge ecosystem. And obviously you see this a lot with like, male female relationships. It’s like, I’m competing with all the men in the world. Really? I’m competing with all the men in the world for these women. That is crazy. Whereas when the ecosystems were smaller, you actually had connection with the local hierarchy and you were connected with local systems of competition and cooperation instead of such a huge system. So, I think, yeah, it is definitely a social critique and, and we also have a culture that is about self crowning. It’s like, you should know your worth, know your value and go out and get it instead of saying, no, the way that you get honor is, this is obviously my take. You serve your community, you fulfill your role and as you serve and care for other people and you function properly in the role that you should, that you were given and you fulfill your responsibilities, then honor will come to you. Because you have done something honorable. You don’t just get honor because you want honor. You have to earn it. And there’s a system through which you earn honor and different cultures have different systems for that. But, but if there’s no system, then you don’t have agency either. And to say, well, I have agency because I just said that I’m honorable. I’m like, okay, sure, that it won’t actually do it for you emotionally, which is why you will continue to strive to get it from other people because it doesn’t actually work that way. People just want it. So yeah, it’s definitely a social critique. I had a good quote. Titles don’t honor men. Men honor titles. It’s a very good quote. So since you opened the door, you’re 85 years old. Yes. You have perfect character. How are you beautiful? Like personally, what’s my personal vision for that? Or just how could anyone be beautiful? No. No, no, no. What, how do you see your own beauty? I think that if I’m somebody who is gentle and present, and like you said, like my five year vision, hopefully I’m already like this and people experience it. But hopefully in five years, people experience me as being even more secure, more stable that there’s emotional things that come. And I’m able to be a stabilizing presence in that for other people and they feel more secure and more happy and more stable when they’re with me during those times. And I would hope that at 85, it’s even more like that when people are with me, they feel at peace. They feel at rest. They feel like they are. They have someone who’s very present with them and sees them for who they are and cares for them and that. And that they experience me as giving up things for them in a way that makes them not feel burdened, but makes them feel honored and. That they, they are able me as being. Happy and fulfilled without asking anything of them. I think that would be. A beautiful kind of person that you would want to be around and emulate. It’s the kind of person I want to emulate. So. This image of a well. To drink from when you’re thirsty. Yeah, I would very much like to be a well like that when I’m older. Yeah, that is beautiful. So, I guess I’m going to take another stab at it because I’ve been. Doing this dance about the divine feminine, right? Like. And we’ve been dancing around it in the conversation. Right? Like it’s it’s creating the space, right? I think it’s interesting that you’re using honor. Over respect. How necessary, right? I’ve been seeing part of the family of all is to encourage. Right? Like to. What you what you were saying with the calm, right? Like you. You need you need the stability for in order to build things and. And so when I hear you, hear you talk, it’s like. Yes, but then what are they building? But that’s a different problem, right? Like you, you still need need that stability. So so maybe pointing out at other women. Who do these things differently? Are there are there aspects that you see in other women that. That you’d like to integrate in yourself? I mean, there certainly are. I just I’m thinking about. It’s hard because things that. You know, I start thinking down the path of one thing to integrate, and then all of a sudden I’m like, well, but then that would mean I’d have to like this and that. And I don’t, you know, like, I run too far down the road. I should just talk. It’s what I should do. You get superpowers like. You get superpowers like. You get superpowers like. You get superpowers like. You get superpowers like. You get superpowers like. It’s the ideal. You get superpowers like. You can just do it. Press the button and you have it. Press the button and I have it. Well, I mean, press the button and there are women who are extremely organized. That would be fantastic. I. I end up making more work for myself because I’m not organized enough. I would like to be more organized the way they are. I. I think there are other women who are. So it’s hard partly because some of a lot of the women that I really admire are much older than me. And they do have that stability of person that we were talking about. And so those are the that already is what I’m aspiring towards is that. You know, there’s there’s a number of older women that I really look up to who have that about them. And and a lot of them have gone through. Very challenging things to achieve that. Well, maybe not to achieve that, but it has been necessary in them achieving that. You know, the 1 woman, there was an affair in her marriage, the other woman, her husband went to jail. And and so there’s there’s always forges that require somebody to either. It always it makes you what you are right? So either you’re going to become less regulated. You’re going to fragment or it’s going to allow you to coalesce and be refined. And so when you see people who are more and more refined, you also have people who have gone through things that are. Challenging and have enabled that refinement. But what I would like to integrate is that and those are also women who are better at what I’m not good at, which is receiving easily and happily. Without seemingly without it being. An issue at all. Is that a thing that flows from the stability? I think that you can’t receive if you are not. If you’re not already stable, that sounds like a problem. Well, I mean, it is always. There’s always things like that, right? Where it’s like, well, you that just means that. You are at least somewhat stable, so you can receive a little bit and then that makes you more stable and then you can receive a little more. And it just it’s a problem, but it just. Is a limiter on growth and it means that. You can grow exponentially as you grow. You can grow exponentially more and more. But at 1st, it’s smaller, smaller steps of growth, and then they can become larger and larger. But. So, is there also another aspect like, what is this stability only for reception or is that also an. An active component in the stability. Oh, I think this stability benefits all kinds of things, but. Because what I want to what I want is to be more receptive. It’s I keep going back to that, but I think that that kind of personal stability. It enables almost everything else. Like you said, you can build off of that. I think that that is the. It’s like the security of like, a very stable ego, but not when that’s self centered. It’s like a resilient, stable ego that looks outwards instead of inwards. And has a, a ongoing source of strength. So that enables like, all the good things essentially all the good things come from that. Yeah, I mean, I would, I would like to be more generous with myself and other people. I, I. I have had relationships with people in the past who were not very good with boundaries and asked a lot. And so I overly protect my boundaries and I find it harder to be willing to. Move beyond my boundaries. Even in context when I probably should and so I would like to be more free about doing that. And we’re not going to be able to do that. I would like to be more free about doing that. And my career probably doesn’t help because in counseling, you keep up high boundaries. So I tend to be a fairly boundary person. And probably lowering that would be a good thing. Um, but, but with prudence, because I have higher boundaries because I’ve been burned so much. So. But yeah, I think that would be a good thing. Honestly, like being like, what do other women have that I would want more of is like. It’s probably a bit of a challenge for me because I probably have too many hang ups with women. It’s it’s just. Maybe it’s something I’m too close to, or maybe it’s the fact that the people who have burned me are always women. And so that’s always like, it’s a little bit of like a. A painful spot, I guess. Oh, yeah. What do men have to. I think that I would like to become more disagreeable. That would be good. Men tend to be more disagreeable or at least better at advocating for myself. I’ve gotten better at that, but I’m not a woman. Advocating for myself, I’ve gotten better at that, but I would like to get even better at that. But I applied for a job recently and they asked me what I wanted to get paid and I. Found it extremely uncomfortable to have to give them a number. So the 1 job, I just didn’t even give them a number and then the other job. I told them what I get paid for when I work for myself and. I didn’t push for more, even though I probably could have. Well, I know I could have, because I charge below market value because I don’t feel comfortable asking for more money from people when I do something that’s a service. So. I could absolutely work on being more. Selfish isn’t the right word, but. Self preserving. Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, so like, this is interesting. So do you feel like service. Has to be dissociated from money. No, but I, I hate. Charging money for therapy, like, I just, I hate it because. I think that it’s valuable and people should pay because 1, you don’t value the things usually that you don’t pay for and 2, it maintains the boundaries of it being professional. But, and I mean, I am actually working and they, it’s reasonable for them to pay for my time, but I don’t like having to do it because. It falls within the category of things that people should just. Do for each other anyhow, it feels terrible. You’re like, I’m going to care about you and listen to you and make you pay me to care about you. I hate it. Most therapists have a hard time with that. Like, it’s not. It’s not comfortable to be paid to care about somebody that’s just. Emotionally weird is what it is. So. But I, I would like to become better at that. Well, maybe they’re actually contradiction in some ways. I think they are. And I don’t the only way around that is if you work for an organization that just pays you a salary and that organization takes a fee and then you kind of get to have a middle man that navigates that discomfort for you. But I don’t have that benefit so. That’s what it is somewhat. It very much is. Yeah. Probably what’s also hard is I really like myself. And so you’re like, well, what do you want to integrate? I’m like, well. I don’t know. I’d like to get to be a better version of what I am, but. I like who I am and so. I I’m kind of happy. Well. If if you like who you are, then I don’t think you should feel shame. I, I do think we all appreciate. You are as well, so thanks. But I can just. No, go ahead. I can say I can just keep working on, like, receiving things and like, not having as much shame and trying to be more organized and being more generous with myself. I think that’s enough of a list of. What I need to work on. Yeah, you just have to keep it inside and then. Slowly manifest. So, yeah, that was, I think. Really extensive description of service because. You stayed on topic really well. Oh, good. I tried. I am I am impressed. You served that too. So, yeah. I guess my last question is, do you. Feel like you’ve you’ve learned a lesson. Maybe you have a thing. That came out from talking about this. I think it’s nice. I, I honestly don’t have many conversations where I talk for. What’s it been like? 2 and a half hours about myself. That’s not like what I normally do. So. Glad to be of service. Yeah, I would say that what I have learned is. It’s nice to it’s nice to kind of trace the thread through and see how, even though there have been. Ways where the motivations weren’t always good, or it was mixed in with other things that were. Painful or unhelpful, I didn’t even end up talking about the times where I tried to be of service and it was completely interactive and didn’t achieve what I hoped it would. Those also exist. But to see that in general, I think that. As you say, I have a relationship with that and it facilitates me relating to other people and to God and. And to think through how at this point. That is in a much healthier way and not a. Not as simplistic or. Sort of self abnegating as it used to be. And so I don’t I don’t know if that’s a lesson, but I appreciate getting to see the development of that and taking the time to look at it. And I think what the questions at the end, we’re reinforcing the value of continuing to have. Goals to keep pushing that edge forward. Which I appreciate well. I hope we can get some other people to respond with the lessons that they’ve learned from listening to you, because I bet there’s plenty of fruit on that tree. Good and yeah, so please leave the comment. And thank you for this wonderful conversation and. I hope to see everybody back on the next episode of unfolding this.