https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=0SwP6tmboK0
Welcome everyone to Voices with Verveki. I’m joined again by with Gary Sheng who as you remember is the creator and leader of Civics Unplugged, a project to sort of reformulate the culture and reconstitute democracy. And he’s brought two ladies here from his community of practice. And I’m going to turn things over to Gary now to introduce himself again and introduce them. So Gary, take it away, please. Yeah, thanks so much, John. It’s so good for all of us to be here. I’m one of the co-founders of Civics Unplugged. Just to kind of briefly recap, I was at Google for several years. Around midway, I realized that there was a lot of mutually exacerbating crises, one of which, thanks to John, I realized that the meaning crisis was at possibly the nexus of all of this, including an education crisis and a crisis of democracy, a crisis of legitimacy of just about every institution. So I left Google about a year and a half ago. It’s been the most meaningful thing that by far that I’ve ever done. And we train, we develop young leaders. And our pride and joy is our community of practice of what we call future builders. And so today we have people that inspire me every day, Madison and Chabu. I’ll let you introduce yourselves. Yeah, I can go ahead and get started. My name is Madison Adams, and I’m a 17-year-old high school senior from Vertigris, Oklahoma. And I got involved in the fellowship in February and then just had an amazing experience within the fellowship. And from there went on to help build CU’s summer camp with two of the other fellows in response to the mass cancellations due to COVID-19. And from there went on to a number of things in preparation for next year’s fellowship. And now I get to help with a lot of dialogue series at CU. And my name is Chabu Kapumba. I’m 18 years old. I currently live in Toronto, but I’m from the suburbs of Chicago as well. And I’m also a first year at the University of Toronto. I came to CU hoping to explore something that I already knew that I was passionate about, which is like long-term democracy reform and serious systems interventions. Not only to, I didn’t anticipate that it would also be almost like a systems intervention of my own. And I got to learn so much about myself and reframe my idea of the future. And right now at CU, I currently work to help support, empower builders as an empowerment associate, and then also work on new and upcoming exciting ideas. Well, there’s two things right away that I’d like to talk to both of you about. And then Madison, and you guys can take it however, which whatever order you want. Madison, I’m really interested in this, your director of dialogue practice. I’d like to, you can, for obvious reasons, that deeply intrigues me. And I’d like to know more about that. And then Chabu, I was really interested in what you said about the interconnection about, you know, learning about systems intervention, but this kind of deep self-knowledge, it’s, you know, almost Socratic in nature. And I’d like to find more about how that unfolded for you. Yeah, thank you for that question, John. So the position of like the director of dialogue just kind of happened organically. So from the beginning of the fellowship, we had this series called unplugged conversations, where we would take what we call like civic superheroes. So people from the world of like, not just civics and politics, but people who can like kind of plug in and like help, you know, reform democracy in some way and have helped. And so we had like a dialogue series with them throughout the fellowship, where we would invite them and it was like a pretty traditional like interview. So we would like ask them, you know, pre formulated questions, they would answer and then all of our community members could come and watch the conversation. But I think it was about in June, when we made the decision to completely like revolutionize the whole series, because we felt like we could be doing so much more with it, right? If we’re going to have all these, you know, amazing community members who can contribute to so much to the conversation, and these civic superheroes who are already doing so much like, can we find like a better way to like connect them and have more meaningful dialogue. And so we kind of like flipped the idea of a traditional interview like on its head. So what we did is now we don’t ask the guest questions, they ask us questions. Oh, cool. Yeah, so they come with like, they have like their their area of like expertise or whatever they have like a topic, and then they pose five questions to the community. And throughout the conversation, you know, everyone’s getting to answer and they’re getting to ask follow up questions and like, you know, go down like meaningful threads of dialogue. And it’s just like a super intimate experience where everyone, like, everyone leaves with something meaningful. And then we also Yeah, so now we, Gary started another series, we do called group think on our YouTube channel. And what happens there is we have a group of builders. And then we the only thing we do to prepare for that was just we just like pick a topic. So whether that be like technology or education, and we just talk about whatever feels meaningful based on burning questions. So like someone will pose a question. And then you know, everyone just gets to answer and then when it feels, you know, appropriate, they pose another question. And we just keep going. And so cool. Yeah. And it’s just been it’s been so amazing to learn about just like what it means to have meaningful dialogue. Because I think, like in the like education system, like we’re not really taught, it’s not just the education system, right? Like it’s like as a society, like, I feel like we don’t know how to talk to have like meaningful conversations. And so just to have that whole idea of conversation and dialogue like revolutionized for me. And like I know I’ve learned and grew like grew so much. And I’m just excited to learn so much more as well. What are some of the major insights you’ve got about I mean, you’re very passionate, and I agree wholeheartedly with you know, the society in general does not know how to dialogue anymore. I’ve been doing a lot of work on that myself. So what are some of the key insights you think you’ve got from this about what’s been missing? And what are some of the central features that constitute a really good dialogue? Yeah, I would say something that’s not just like at the core of dialogue, but like the core of everything that we’re doing at CU is like, empathy. And, and I think what comes with that is like the phrase like listening lovingly. So I know like, a lot of times like conversations, especially conversations about politics end up being about like, like getting your point in. And it’s like, it seems to me that like talking points are like the enemy of meaningful dialogue. And that’s been something that’s been really hard for me to grasp because I’ve been doing debate all my life. It’s like, oh, you’re like you’re rewarded if you use talking points, you’re rewarded if you come with all this pre prepared information. It’s like you sound smart, you sound like we have this joke, like you say something profound is our joke, because it’s always like say something that sounds good, you know. So it’s like, you know, being rewarded all my life to say things that sound good. And then like just trying to transition to like, actually going into the conversation with the mindset that I want to learn something has completely like, it’s just changed the whole way I view dialogue. And it’s been really hard to unlearn. Like it’s so hard to not, you know, formulate what you’re going to say before you say it. And to actually go in like with the mindset that, you know, I want to learn something from the people around me within this conversation. Does it happen that you spark off of each other and you feel like that you’re all getting to places you couldn’t get to on your own kind of thing? Yes, it’s. And that’s what’s so great about group think is, you know, you just you get to let the conversation flow wherever it feels meaningful. You know, like someone can mention something and they can build on top of that and then they can just ask another question. And it just like goes into all these really interesting threads. And so it’s like nothing’s forced. Everything that you’re talking about feels meaningful, which is really cool to see. That’s very interesting. Yeah, I’m doing a lot of work with my good friend and co-author Christopher Masapietro and also work with Guy Sendstock trying to figure these kinds of processes out. And like, I agree with you. I think we’ve largely forgotten them and forgotten what they feel like and forgotten how meaningful they are and how generative they are. So I want to talk to you more about this, but I also want to I want to hear what Chibu has to say about that kind of self-knowledge she was talking about. No, I think that when Madison spoke of is in direct correlation with kind of like the systems intervention I had personally in the sense that so much of the initial fellowship was not only just like learning about the democratic process and what it looks like and what it could look like, but then we were also tasked with like completing our leadership blueprint, which is really almost like mapping out yourself. And so it was almost like establishing a meaningful internal dialogue. Oh, wow, that’s really intriguing to me. Yeah, that’s intriguing to me. And I was constantly shocked by the fact that like someone it was almost it was as simple as being asked, what are your core values? And of course, you know core values, but being forced to articulate it made it resonate all that much more and that much easier to seek those things out in the world around me. And I think that having undergone the fellowship and then completing my leadership blueprint and then, you know, going into like other tasks and activities, I don’t think that I would be ready to engage in so many great cool conversations with like Gary and Madison and group think if I hadn’t had to at first, you know, have that really meaningful dialogue with myself because I’m almost surprised by the things that I’m like I can easily talk about even though I’ve never really had those conversations beforehand. So it’s stuff it was it’s very interesting to see how like your personal system impacts like the way that you engage with the world in attempts to have systems change take place too. So it sounds like it goes both ways, right? You do this internal dialogue and then that empowers the external dialogues and then you take it back into your internal dialogue. Am I understanding you correctly? Absolutely and the fact that it’s always ongoing. I feel like I’ve had like 10 evolutions within the past six months and it’s just so cool to see because it’s not just something that I’m going through. Like I’ve seen it in the other builders who are also like now my personal friends and just how enriching the experience has been as well. That’s interesting. So like you see yourself growing in self-knowledge and you see other people growing in self-knowledge and those are like they get paired together or joined together in some fashion and that that sponsors kind of a deep friendship. Is that is that is that what you’re saying? Yeah absolutely especially because you understand that you have like this shared commonality of really valuing what’s happening to our collective being in the next few years in the next few decades and so it makes it really easy to be open about like these like pressing concerns that you can’t necessarily talk to all your friends about and so that’s like a bonding experience in itself. So you feel like you have a place therefore where you can explore things really deeply then? Oh absolutely. I think the initial shock of CU was just like oh wow there’s other people my age who care this much about the things that bother me all the time and that message has just like been driven further and further the more time I spend here. So do you feel like you’ve become more clear about that caring? This part really really interests me like when people get a sense that you know that they’re they’re caring better than they used to not just more intensely but like with more understanding more appreciation is that is that happening? For sure I think that you can really see it like how we care has changed in the sense that our approach isn’t in the sense of like what product can we produce more of how can we create something really meaningful really insightful how do we like not rush the process how can we promise to like reiterate and grow and like what we’re doing here. That’s really cool. Wow I’m glad that Gary brought you to like you guys are talking about stuff that I’m just so deeply well that I care deeply about and I’m really appreciating it. So you both have said and you know whoever wants to speak next please you both have said that you know you’ve invoked that things are more meaningful to you. Do you feel that your lives in general are now more meaningful? I can just go ahead and answer that. I would say like that would be like an understatement I just I think like what not only like your work has done but like also like what Gary has taught me what CU has taught me it’s like it’s helped it’s like really made me like experience like like a whole different like human experience because like before exploring your work and like and CU and everything that I’ve learned I just thought that like the way that you cultivate knowledge and wisdom is through like through education through like exploring different subjects like math and science and history and just like studying things more. So what this has all done for me it’s like opened like a new world of curiosity of just so many more things becoming meaningful and like I mean something that you mentioned like you referenced Socrates and like the beginning of the meaning crisis when you’re talking about he says like I know what I do not know or like and that’s kind of like what I feel like is that I don’t feel like I’m more knowledgeable because like of all these like lessons that I’ve learned whatever it’s because it’s like I’ve learned so much more about like what there is to explore and what there is to learn and all these new relevant things and so it’s just it’s been it’s so hard to explain exactly what it is because like any like say say any direct thing would be like almost narrowing down my experience because it’s just like revolutionized the way I see myself in the world. What about for you Chavo? Like is your life in general more meaningful? Do you find that to be the case? Yeah I think that um I think that it’s also like given me that because I’m in in a constant state of reassessing and recalibrating what I like what do I have a natural energy for and so by doing that I get to validate the things that are really powerful to me to bring more of them into my life to make them more of like the center of like you know what I want to put my time behind and so it means that I have more meaningful days more often and then I also think that because of the CU community I have so many opportunities to have like meaningful moments outside of myself because there’s you know a standing community of people who are more than happy to you know go go over a conversational deep end with me if that’s what I need on a Friday morning. Right right. It’s been more meaningful in the sense that I it forces me to spend more time with things that matter to me and then I also have more opportunities to have meaningful moments outside of myself which I love. That’s amazing that’s amazing. So you got you you’re both very different than you know the sort of Dumer culture that’s often portrayed as representing your generation. Like how do you feel any significant contrast between like you know who you are now and the community you’re in and sort of your you know your your regular day cohort of people do you feel like there’s a contrast or or does it feel like they’re interested in what you’re doing at all or like how’s it happening in that comparison for you? I think I can start off by saying that I think that there’s more we have more in common with like other gents here who are not who are not inside the CU community like there’s very little differences between us. The biggest distinction is having the opportunity to invest grow that part of ourselves that is you know looking to do something and to invest and grow in a way that’s really meaningful and also by having like the guidance to do so because we have so much access to information I think like how to steps isn’t the issue but just knowing what is the most relevant way to start in the way that’s like impactful and meaningful. So I think that it’s just a matter of like who has had the opportunity to be around people who will cultivate that want rather than turning it into like almost like a thing of contradiction or an ongoing issue or you know something to be not like not upset about but something that you know you see as like oh this is like our impending doom but in reality it’s like this is almost like our calling what we are supposed to be focusing in on. That’s interesting do you find any of your non-community friends like attracted because you know you both are very enthusiastic about this right do you find that they’re attracted to you know civics unplugged because of what they see? Yeah I think that like for me at least with my friends because I have friends who are like also an activist base is who go to school with me and we’re like interested in the same topics as me and we’d and I’ve kind of be like but here’s this place where it’s more than okay to just care about it but like super tangible tools to address it right present and I get to almost like employ those tools in our conversations. You’re like well if you’re looking at this issue can we take a step back and like assess our assumptions or how are we going to do this in a way that incorporates all these other like schools of thought or you know histories and pasts and sciences and all those things so I think that it’s cool in the sense that I don’t have to be like oh see you so great I use see you tools all the time and it kind of translates in itself. That’s really good to know that’s powerful that’s very powerful I mean I think the transfer of skills is much more important than just the presentation of ideas so people are seeing that and realizing it that’s very that’s very important. What about you Madison what’s how’s your experience been? Yeah I think I began to do something similar to Chabu. Something that’s been super just helpful for me has been like our our small group like our Junto’s you know that you and Gary talked about in your last conversation and I’ve like I’ve tried I’m going to start implementing kind of that same format within one of my classes at school and I was like trying to start one in my family just because wall CU is like has this ultimate goal of like you know trying to empower you know like Gen Z to to build American democracy like so much of it is not even really like it doesn’t have to be directly related to like building democracy it’s a lot of like like self-discovery and so and that’s just been really cool to be able to implement like into different areas of my life and as far as like and I feel like everyone like in our generation has the ability to be as supercharged and as passionate as we are about this because you know what we’re trying to build is really like what we’re trying to build is really like and you know we said the future of American democracy but it’s really like the future of like our society and and because of that like everyone has a way to plug in and it should be relevant to everyone and so like like Chabu is saying like the difference between us and like someone who’s not in our community is really just the fact that like they’re not in our community like I wouldn’t be where I am today without all the amazing people um like within my Junto and like Gary and Chabu to be able to help me realize all these things and to become so passionate about it and so it really just speaks to the power of community and our culture and just like how important all of that is. Wow I really I’m impressed by the opto the optimistic appraisal you have of your generation you know I mean if I’m hearing both of you right you basically say there’s a tremendous potential there and all they need is the proper tools to actualize it is that is that fair to say that? I would second it by saying the proper the proper tools but as well as like the right culture. Right right well said yeah well said well said so say a little bit more about that what do you mean by the proper culture that’s a good point. I think that um because like post fellowship we kind of entered this like era where we were you know working on commencement 2030 and like new upcoming projects and then considering stuff about like the next fellowship and so we we were almost at a point where like we had the tools but what solidified and fortified all of our learning was being around people who would like almost remind you that these are tools or assets that you have that you can use to address challenges and issues and so it’s it’s like the knowledge but then the also the application portion to like make sure that you’ve really like learned and absorbed what you’ve taken in. Right right that’s a very good point I like that point about the about community and culture being necessary to properly home the tools. So I mean you guys have made reference a couple times to my work and like I’m you know obviously in one sense I’m ego-centric egocentrically and narcissistically interested in it but if you could avoid that aspect of it I’m more interested in like how how is my work helping you maybe is the question I’d like answered like what are you like is it is it helping you maybe I’m being presumptuous but if it is how it is it how does it plug in to what you’re learning with Gary you know that’s the general 10 other question in turn asked. Okay I guess I can start I would definitely say that and this was a phrase that was like introduced to me by Gary maybe like a few weeks ago but I can see over time how I’ve been obsessed with this idea of sense making or understanding how like my life is the way it is as a byproduct of like hundreds of years of history and cultural practices and you know everything is almost like a byproduct of things that are beyond me and my understanding and I think that I was able to like explore that a little bit in high school like when you talk about feminism as a woman I’m like oh like this explains x y and z in my day-to-day life and so it was really great in the sense that learning has always been an asset in helping me understand my identities and so looking into your series it almost like exponentially pushed the boundaries of like sense making in the sense that it was almost like a complete collaboration of all these different fields of interests and principles like there are no boundaries the way you reference philosophy and religion and almost like like I feel like I had an understanding of them before like reframing them as assets and tools to helping you understand and make sense of the world that you know we live in and so it’s been so great in the sense that it’s been a great way to get an understanding of I thought I was looking at the big picture but now I feel like I’m really getting like a world-oreal view of like the things that we’re looking at from like a historical sense a philosophical sense from a religious perspective from you know even a scientific perspective from a political perspective and so it’s been it’s exposed me to so much language and understanding and it’s also something that I can’t wait to continue to like dive into thank you for saying that that makes I mean I mean that’s extremely encouraging even gratifying to me to know that what I do is really helping other people on the Socratic project like that that really matters to me that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s an ideal that I have a pedagogical ideal so thank you for saying that that was and I’m glad I’m genuinely glad that my work has been helpful to you no it’s been so meaningful I couldn’t say thank you enough well you did you did you really did um I would just say for me um at CU we’ve been calling it like unplugging like realizing all these things but it is in a lot of ways like awakening from the meaning crisis you know and what your series has helped me do like help me awaken from the meaning crisis and be able to see um like the ways and like like Chabu was saying like just be able to do more sense making of like myself and the world and it’s it’s helped me be able to see like um well so it’s like it’s helped me understand um like like why other like um how to go about helping other people like either unplug or like awaken from the meaning crisis as well because you know what we’re trying to do at CU is you know it’s like a culture change and so much of that is trying to get people to um realize like a lot that you’re talking about in your work um and so just being able to make sense of it myself I feel like is is helping me able to help other people and get me um really supercharged at the prospect of doing that as well thank you that’s fantastic I guess that’s also very very encouraging so I have a bit more of a challenging question for you both then now that we’ve sort of crossed so what’s the connection and like this is a free form question so you know go as far as you want what’s the connection between awakening from the meaning crisis and restoring democracy you know I was going to ask at least one Socratic question right had to no we had to anticipate it I think that I can start off by saying that um in its like purest form democracy is supposed to be a reflection of the people right and so the meaning crisis is something that’s exponentially impacting every single individual as well as us as a collective and so if democracy is a reflection of the people and the people are having this meaning crisis then our democracy will also have a meaning crisis oh wow or another um and I love and I love how um easy it is to pick up the parallels between like your internal well-being and how your understanding of yourself and then also how that’s reflective and just like how we are collectively um as a group so yeah I’d say that the correlation is the fact that democracy is the people and the people are having this meaning crisis and that is the correlation that was good thank you that was good what about you madison what would you say how would you answer the question I posed I Chauvi answered that really well um I just kind of to kind of build upon that um I think a lot of it is like in terms of like awakening from the meaning crisis is um kind of like realizing that a lot of the things that we do are kind of mindless and um and in terms of like trying to shift society and culture like you can’t be mindless in that you have to um there’s a lot of things you need to recognize about yourself in the world in the human condition in order to do that um and so it’s like we can’t really reform democracy if we don’t awaken people from the meaning crisis um if they’re not able to realize a number of things about themselves and their relationship with other people and and see the vision for what it means for them to have a meaningful life and for us to have a meaningful and purposeful democracy and ultimately like a meaningful and purposeful world as well those are both very good answers Carrie I’m really impressed uh I’m really impressed with both of you um I mean I’d like I’d like to also offer the opportunity Madison and Chabu if you guys want to ask me any questions like I’m here like right now if you if there’s anything you’d like to ask me any questions you might have that I could answer for you I’d be happy to do so yeah I have a question so um whether you want to call it like unplugging or awakening from the meaning crisis um something that I realized through this whole like process for me is like while like I am realizing everything that people are doing that are like kind of like self-sabotage to like their happiness and and them finding meaning in their lives I’m also simultaneously becoming so much more empathetic and loving and appreciative of other people at the same time so it almost seems like a contradiction to me that like I’m like able to do both those at the same time so I was wondering like did you have the same experience throughout your series like did you like simultaneously like realize like all these flaws but also become like wildly more empathetic for people and if so like why do you think that that happened um I think part of it is that there’s there’s a there’s a deep connection between trying to realize the degree to which your self-deception to self-deceptive and the cultivate like as you try to overcome that that’s a component of meaning and as you’re trying to enhance the kinds of connections that make life meaningful that awareness of how self-deceptive you can be and how out of touch you can be I mean it can go one of two ways I mean it can go into a self-aggrandizing thing but then you very quickly lose touch with your insight right you lose touch with being able to realize your self-deception and how you’re out of touch so the other ways the other way it can go um when the better angels of our nature speak is it creates a kind of humility and and and that humility the humility is important first of all as like if you’re trying to put yourself out there because if you don’t have humility it can really inflate you very quickly so just as a counterbalance is good but the humility also if it’s genuine and I I hope it is for me I aspire to it then um it makes you more empathetic it makes you realize um how that a lot yes people are out of touch and there is as you said madison there there is mindlessness there’s self-deceptive self-destructive behavior we have a lot of evidence of that but at you can you can see that the difference between you and that person is really just a difference of degree not a difference of kind and you can also see at times you can feel the hunger and the hurt for meaning that’s driving a lot of the behavior and that’s uh very helpful I like I was motivated to do this series precisely because I could see a lot of people suffering um and then and the suffering isn’t just inert suffering some people just get caught in inertia but it’s a suffering in which they hurt not only themselves but other people and so my motive was to try to reduce that and you can’t really reduce suffering if you frame it as like I’m going to inflict punishment or suffering or blame on these people because that’s not really going to be effective and so um I think if you’ve got a good model and Socrates was my model of how um well like we’ve been talking about how the cultivation of self-understanding is linked to understanding other people and and vice versa then you go down the humility pathway and that tends to make you more empathetic um and I think a capacity for humility makes you as you were saying Madison makes you really capable of listening to other people but with the idea that I’m not going to speak I’m not just going to speak to them I’m going to try and learn from them and I mean it reminds me of a Zen story about a guy who comes to learn from the Zen master and he says before I teach I’m going to give you some tea and he starts pouring the cup and he keeps pouring at the Zen master and it overflows the teacup and it’s burning the guy’s handy stop stop and then it got and that the Zen master says well you’re like you’re like this you’re overfilled you gotta you gotta be right you have to be ready you have to be ready to listen and I think humility is if anything it’s a sensitivity to listening so it makes you more aware this way and it makes you more open that way and so those things it if they’re if they’re integrated with understanding then empathy becomes a virtue right they oh right if they’re if empathy empowers understanding and understanding empowers empathy then you get a genuine virtue you get like like you get like a gap or you at least get genuine sympathy or compassion things like that so did that do you feel that answered your question yes thank you for that I definitely resonate with that and just as a follow-up maybe you maybe this is not an answerable question but what do you think differentiates between the the person that goes down the path of humility and the person that does not what do you think is different in that experience that’s what that I mean that’s a that’s a tough question because that’s I mean there’s going to be all kinds of individual factors I mean there’s going to be you know personality variables I mean I think the person’s you know situation their their own idiosyncratic history is going to have an impact on that I think how they’ve how they have been helped to cultivate their character is going to make an impact also the degree to which they have been exposed to like to to you know to whatever degree trauma or or or you know you know meaningless pain the world has a capacity and we found ways to really accelerate it of inflicting meaningless pain on people and the thing about pain and you can understand why it’s adaptive pain pain both psychological and physical makes you very self-centered right and and what you’re trying to do is right turn everything inwards and and so if people have experienced a lot of meaningless pain pain that they can’t integrate into a narrative about how they’re going to grow from the pain then I think that can very much shift people in the wrong direction and and then you know not only pain but it’s it’s it’s a tendon shadow or or twin which is desires often desires become uncoupled and disproportionate because people are trying to address pain that has not been properly processed so there’s issues of pain there’s issues of opportunity and people of course do not have often appropriate opportunity there’s degree to which there’s personality variable somebody who’s very low in openness is going to have difficulty with this but the but you know personality can always be compensated for by the cultivation of character so how much have they have because everybody has to have a lot of help initially to cultivate their character you guys are getting it right now right before it becomes powerful enough right that right you can you can sort of take control of it for yourself you can appropriate it totally for yourself you like you like you said both of you you have to be given a lot of tools and a community that sustains you for quite a while before it becomes self-sustaining on a note if it ever does I think we always ultimately need to get more tools and more community so I’m sorry that’s a very long answer but there’s lots of interacting variables that I think to work go towards why some people take this initial awareness of self-deception and being out of touch and turn it manipulatively towards you know manipulating others viciously towards manipulating others I think is what I want to say or virtuously towards humility and openness to sympathy and compassion I really I mean I really appreciate that answer and it’s making me like realize even more the power of community because it’s like almost like community is the remedy to that pain that people are experiencing you know I think so yeah and it’s like even if they like need to process things like you know without a community they’re left unprocessed but with people like especially like you know in our Junto groups like and it’s along like hand in hand with that is like the cultivation of character like we’re growing and learning together so it’s like it’s almost like I wonder if like a big factor is whether they have the ability to process that with other people and have like you know people to grow with and learn with cultivate character with and just to help them you know process that that pain that you mentioned as well. Chabu do you have any questions you would like to ask me? I think that like what resonated with your work for me so much was this idea of the lack of boundary when it came to like exploring intersectionalities and there was this one video on symbols and metaphors and just the idea of like by connecting these two things you get to learn more than you would have originally understood had you just looked at it through one lens and so I guess my question is again what comes with intersectionality is like losing the guidance of like boundaries and limitations so as someone who’s like trying to grow and learn in like really meaningful ways especially like the information that I’m getting through classes and readings and so on and so forth like how do you allow yourself to explore those intersectionalities without like you know explicit guidance as to you know you can’t connect these two subjects or you should try and connect these two subjects. Yeah that’s a hard question that’s a very hard question not not it’s a very good question. I don’t know if I have that good of an answer I mean I tried to give an answer and I tried to exemplify an answer in the course which whereas I the whole argument about what it is to pursue you know and not just being you know didactic and eclectic right and just sampling this and sampling that but I gave the argument for synoptic integration and what that looks like and how you’re trying to balance off the differences but the shared identities and you’re trying to construct that in a plausible manner so for me that’s that’s been the guide about how to do that. Now I know it’s it’s not exactly the same and I hope you don’t feel I’m being pretentious but you know trying to get even these different different these different disciplines with their different ontologies and methodologies and languages to talk to each other in a way like well you know simultaneously respecting the important differences but discovering the important connections and as you said not just doing that higgledy-piggledy but trying to do it in such a way well as I tried to argue that you’re getting convergence and then you’re getting elegance and they’re balanced together that that that was a methodology that I was I I I I I taught about in this series and I tried to exemplify it throughout about how you go about these kinds of processes. Now I’m not saying it’s easy but the thing is if you if you do synoptic integration in which you’re simultaneously doing the integration and the differentiation then you have the potential for the whole thing to complexify and the thing about complexification is it produces new emergent functions you get new emergent functions that they can feed back and as you get that sense of emergent functions that are feeding back and helping you do it I think that starts to become like very much a path that’s guiding you you can get a sense of oh going this way I’m getting these new emergent abilities and they’re helping me with the synoptic integration and then the synoptic integration is complexifying and producing the emergent does that make sense to you that that’s been sort of how I work. You know that does make sense I’ve always like described it as like finding new nuances that makes sense on both spectrums right and no it’s definitely something that’s like big that you’ve like done a really good job of exemplifying and um and I think also just like as you as I get to learn more um I almost want to like train my mind to be like what is how does this engage with something that’s almost completely and totally irrelevant um because I’ve found that that’s a really easy way to find deeper meaning in both those things. I mean I think that’s that’s right um and I think you’ve also put your finger on like maybe the deepest of at least the scientific themes running through the course which is you know this this problem of relevance realization really what’s relevant and how do we improve that and you know and it’s largely not a matter about acquiring new beliefs right you have to acquire new skills you have to acquire new perspectives you have to acquire new ways of identifying you know co-identification you have to do all of those you have to do it in a real you have to do it individually and collectively in a really dynamical dynamical and dynamically self-organizing manner um and but the thing that I find encouraging is it sounds like you guys are doing all of what we’re talking about right now it sounds like the con like it sounds like you’re you’re strengthening training skills and virtues cultivating character affording new kinds of connections helping each other like you’re helping each other refine what you care about what you find relevant out of zero in so I think if you’re doing the synoptic integration on the way we’re talking and you’re also at the same time building your ability to zero in on relevant information those two things will really support each other very well um no I think you bring up a really good point about the fact that like if you look at it we’re almost like multitasking on so many different levels yeah but it happens so naturally that it doesn’t feel that way and like everything still you know occurs in a really like deep and meaningful way because it sounds like you’re not being tasked with it um it’s just something that we all have a natural energy for so it all naturally manifests within our community I predict that what’s going to start happening or if it doesn’t if it hasn’t already is you’ll start noticing at all scales of your life this ability to zero in on relevant information is improving I bet you that’s going to start happening as long as like as long as you keep on this course and keep in this community you’re going to start noticing even on like really mundane trivial areas you realize you’re zeroing in on the relevant information and making more insightful connections I predict you’re going to find that that’s going to start disseminating throughout your life much more comprehensively because that’s what happens that’s what happens to me it’s already like taking shape in different parts of my life so no most definitely that’s cool that’s very cool well I want to thank you both this has been like a lot of fun for me and like deeply encouraging um I hope um I hope you guys have found my my answers helpful um I’d like to give Gary a chance to say anything because he’s been relatively in the background quiet and I appreciate that he made space for us to have a very free-flowing discussion which I really enjoyed but I’d like to give Gary a chance to interject now yeah I mean it was just it was awesome to to kind of observe and experience and absorb um one one thought that came to mind about how we are inspired as a community or maybe in particular I’m inspired by your work and what you’ve done very intentionally with the meaning crisis series and the dialogo series is um it seems like you are intentionally trying to embody these transcendent principles that allow for these things that are abstract such as wisdom commitment to uh to truth commitment to um the love like you know by Leah Sophia in this age where it’s hard to trust anyone you thinking out loud you learning learning publicly um it’s given me permission to do that right it’s given me permission to wrestle with ideas that are really difficult and also not know right because because you finish a lot of your dialogues with a bunch of open questions yeah right that are like and it’s exciting because you can re-explore it at the next time yeah yeah and it gets you you’re excited to wake up in the morning right and especially if you have like I don’t know any any number you have dozens of open threads that are like you know zack stein daniel schmockton burger right jordan hall like um I was able to chat with forest landry um the other day just just just one wonderful people who like um I think you might I think you were one of the first people that I exposed in that in this sort of sense making space and it really changed what I what I personally believe was possible with myself and so I think about that as someone that is partially at the face of this organization and certainly really present in the internal kind of uh workings of the community of practice I think about what you are to me what that like how can I be to some extent what um what um how how can I how can the the kids uh look up to me right and and and be inspired by what I am trying to embody the project that I am trying to further in the same way that I’m inspired by by people like you so um I guess my question is uh are you aware of just oh are are you really intentional about being that embodiment of these of all sorts of things and what are your thoughts about that um that’s um well thank you for saying that um so I learned from Socrates that you should do what you like what you said that you should really try to embody and that most of the many of these things cannot be taught I mean I can use words and gestures but they’re ultimately are going to be taught the way Socrates taught which is by embody them embodying them and sharing his process of aspiration and learning as he embodies them with people who are interested so that that means a great deal to me um uh uh it’s also I don’t want to I don’t know how do I say this I take very seriously the responsibility of what you’ve just said and I don’t want to disappoint people like um I I it we all have Lord knows we all have enough disappointment I don’t want to I don’t want to draw people in and inspire them and then disappoint them that would be a great failure now I’m going to make mistakes I’m a human being and I do make mistakes and I try to apologize when I do but we’re talking now about my intention and my intention is to as much as possible um live out what I have been taught by Socrates and to also not be another source of disappointment for people I mean people are going to disagree both of you ladies probably disagree with parts of what I say here and there and that’s fine it’s expected but as long as overall you feel that you know I I I am neither inflating nor being hypocritical um that matters to me that really matters to me because um I think the sting of disappointment is almost as bad you know as the sting of fate and we need to do whatever we can to we need to take more seriously um the fact that when we don’t act on principle we are inevitably going to disappoint human beings and disappoint others and that is a way of hurting them that goes very very deep and is very very long lasting and so I don’t want to be responsible for that kind of hurt yeah I mean that’s a really pretty thoughtful response um what that reminds me of is and I think you’ve talked about this but I’ve certainly heard others um talk about this betrayal there’s almost nothing worse than feeling betrayed yeah yeah and so like I said nobody nobody should or can aspire to any ridiculous standards of perfection or anything like that but I think a humble and honest aspiration to do the best to teach the best I can which means embodying it not just speaking about it and to afford people their own aspiration like Socrates being the widwife and do the best I possibly can with the help of so many great people to not to not disappoint people that’s that matters to me that’s beautiful um and if I can add um these two um superheroes that that I brought here today um I like that yeah I mean I see them as having kind of infinite potential um and and just while uh like they’re already extremely inspiring but they’re you know step one is to be committed to these ideals right you’re gonna you’re gonna you’re gonna fall short um Madison and I like to talk a lot about bullshitting so yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure and you’re gonna bullshit yourself and you’re not gonna know that’s the thing you’re not gonna know yeah unless you’re constantly in the process of individual reflective inquiry and group reflective inquiry very much very much and it’s I think what what you’ve taught all of us is that it’s hard to think clearly without distribute distributed cognition very much I believe very deeply in that very much very much and how can you do that without um listening lovingly and and we’re not afraid to talk about love because it seems to it’s like it’s a it’s an orientation to the world and others um that allows you to see what’s relevant and allow allow you to see what’s beautiful in in them and um so that they’re not I mean to say the least they’re not caricatures right yeah yeah and so like you you care for them in the way that um they might care for themselves right and that’s how I feel about you know you know Chabu and Madison right like I asked them is there anything is there any part of their uh well-being that doesn’t matter to me right is it if anything happened to them question yeah wow that’s a fantastic question in what way like in what way would I um the way that I I I I choice make uh is based on the assumption that we are one I mean it sounds weird right but hanging with me it’s like I I try to expand my sense of self right yeah yeah to to include Chabu and Madison but also as many people as possible as many like and this is this is something that um this is almost the project of um you know empathy right applied empathy that allows it allows you to see more relevant information so you can make choices that don’t have as many unintended consequences if you didn’t love those people yeah agree that’s very well said okay well um I should get going um but I think this was fantastic I’m gonna upload this uh to uh voices with Reveke um and um I I you know any links you guys want me put in put in please send them to me sounds good and I’ll put them in and I assume that you uh Madison and Chabu you guys being here I have permission to upload you onto my channel is that correct yes absolutely great okay so thank you very much this was I mean I’m uh I’m getting a little bit choked up uh so thank you thank you so very much it was really wonderful and sorry all I have to give our words right now but my strongest possible encouragement for what you’re doing um and I encourage anybody who’s watching this who’s interested to reach out to civics unplug because I think you know I have this phrase about stealing the culture and I think this is the most beautiful stuff of the culture that’s happening right now and I really really appreciate it very very deeply so thank you very much one and all take good care everyone thank you John thank you so much all right bye bye