https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=OG61MjRWkTY
Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today my guest is Changi. He’s going to talk about how dancing has been a prominent thing in his life. Changi has been hanging out with us on the Discord for a long time doing meditation and other practices. And at a certain point, I got together with him trying to use the ideas that we’ve been cultivating on the Discord to improve his dancing lessons, right, so he’s giving dancing lessons. So yeah, that’s a little bit of the background. So Changi, what does dance mean to you? What does it mean? So as I was walking home, I think it means some kind of lightness. I think it means a kind of taking off the… So for me, I think the most clean form of dance is like when you are… either when you do folk dance or when you are naked and you just dance around, I don’t know, like there is this taking off all the kind of things that makes you anxious for really submerging into some kind of music. So it has to do a lot with music. So dance means for me this kind of light way of going through, of moving through, even without a direction sometimes, but just kind of trusting and through this… It’s like the way is more important than the destination. I think that’s an important thing about when we think about dance and also that maybe if I translate it then I’m doing something with my body and I’m doing something with my character, who I am, but the point is not who I am and this and this and this and this. I tell you the results that I have achieved. It’s more like who I am is being presented through the dance. So I don’t know. Sorry, maybe that. So dancing means this kind of… For me, it’s a process. So, yeah, then we can start at the beginning. So there’s this process of self-expression, right? Because I get the sense that it’s not only you showing who you are to other people, but it’s also showing who you are to yourself. Yes, it’s a kind of… It’s an exploration and also an experience of something. Sorry, an expression and also an experience of something. So and it’s definitely social. So there is an aspect in which even when I’m dancing alone, people come to mind or situations come to mind or this music has an evocation of something. So there is always this… Yeah, I’m exploring or experiencing and expressing something through myself and I’m exploring also something in relation. Like I’m also receiving the expression of someone else or yeah, and then it becomes quite fun. So when was the first time that you participated in that way? Is it a distinct memory? Yeah. So I was one of these kids that if my parents played music, I was kind of moving to it, but I think that happens to a lot of kids. And also when my father had a company party or something and I remember that there was some kind of music playing, some kind of rock and there was my shadow and I didn’t look at people because I think I was quite an anxious and I was a quiet kid, but I was looking at my shadow and I was dancing to it until I was running with sweat and that kind of took me to a place where which I haven’t discovered before and that place was for me incredible, another space. Like it was almost like an altered state or some, I don’t know. I wouldn’t go that far. As a kid, it doesn’t matter. It’s just that I was in something that was really nurturing myself and not yet with others. So that was the first time. So you put it in the context of being anxious. So was it an escape or was it something that was really glorifying something? Oh, yeah. Good question. Actually, there was in that moment, there was a huge emergence of emotions, of this kind of celebration of life. Okay, that’s maybe another thing what dance means to me. And for like you’re kind of celebrating the being in the moment. So that was a huge part of this experience. And the thing that was that maybe I said like that was strange is that the other things they kind of melted apart. I guess that’s related to the flow state that like that’s because of that, that I started to go into and then I don’t know. I don’t know where other people are anymore, but it somehow doesn’t matter. So then there is this later on, it becomes more of an issue that if it’s an escape or an escapism, that’s actually a big question for me. So you discovered this magical way of being. And then like what does that do? Like is that thing that you were going to search out? Yeah, so definitely something that I’m drawn to after that is like this. Okay, it’s a call that’s for me. It’s a huge word. It’s more like whenever that thing turns on, I want to chase it. I want to follow it. So yeah, I definitely started then searching this and also my parents saw me and they started me on this kind of journey of like he could do dancing. And yeah, this was very satisfying. And this is how I found calmness. Because I cried very easily as a kid. But through this kind of this, doing whatever this was, I could regulate my emotions and I could find a lot of comfort and sometimes through discomfort, something else, which was always very exciting. So what age are we talking about? So I was 10 when I started then, when I went to my first local dance school. My mom started me on it. But she just like go do it. And then I kept going regularly. So she just dropped me then. Then I stick to it. And interestingly, other things melted out. I did I kid also for six years, but this kind of got filtered out through my… I couldn’t stick to it that long. It was more important than dancing. Because dancing also is a possibility. It offers you a kind of perspective after a while of possibilities to explore. So there are these dance styles that you can do as a kid. I did like show dance and then I did more like hip hop or this kind of break dance, b-boying. I started also. And then later when I realized that then it became more serious and that I could do this. But then I am confronted with the reality of what does it mean to be a dancer? Not just the dance, but what is it to be a dancer or become a dancer? So then I kind of chose opted for contemporary dance because I thought, ah, this is something people do in theaters. So then it’s respectable. And if I’m from a middle class family, so I cannot… I couldn’t fit into the break dance community, let’s say. Or I could not see for myself a way through life in breaking or in locking or in other styles. So that’s why I chose contemporary. Yes. So you’re an active kid, right? Like you’re doing Aikido and probably… Floorball. I did many sports. Actually, no, no. Yeah. I tried. I did floorball for six years or many years. I was a goalie, which I loved. I was in a sports context. I wasn’t competitive, for example. I could not beat or I was not… I had to be competitive. I could not beat or I was not… I had some inhibitions that I could not be going to a competitive state without becoming emotional. So it’s very difficult. So I was always the goalie. I loved it because then it’s kind of… I thought being a goalie is like a one-time chance. It’s a bit similar to like that the goal is a special person who there is only one of them and they have to be very dexterous, but only once or twice. But that changes the whole game. I don’t know. It was for me like that’s why I created this thing in my head that this is more important than being, let’s say, the front person. So yeah, but like also when I was in a competitive… When there was football, for example, that there is opponents, I felt like I kind of danced around the things like I enjoyed more the movement of it than the winning, losing of it. And I even was… When I played and we were winning, I felt this stupid kind of sympathy or empathy for the other team. So I played worse so that we are more equal. I kind of, I don’t know. I didn’t fit into that environment. So is there… How do I have to see it? Is it like a slow growth of the value of dancing in relation to these other aspects or is it just… You discover this new way of doing things and then it just supersedes everything and then just takes time for you to realize that they have to fade out. I think it took time. I don’t know. I think it’s both of what you said. Like the second one for sure. I realized it, but to realize it took a lot of time. It was unconsciously there, I guess. But I also… The other thing that I’m kind of with is this kind of eclectic, to be eclectic or to be very… To be very, I’m also quite open, so like to be very open to many things and not to close down. Like as a kid I thought to be… To be… To grow… Well, it’s good if I do also things that which I’m… I didn’t think of it like this. I thought I also enjoy this. Why should I let it go? I also enjoy this. Why should I stop? I’m not so good at it. It doesn’t give me the gratification, let’s say, but I also play the guitar and I just picked it up a few weeks ago. I could not learn it well, but… Yeah, I’m more of this generalist also as an approach. But to answer to your question, I think it was long. It took a very long time to crystallize. I could not decide I want to do this. So how do you get to a decision if it takes a long time? Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I struggle with it still. I think… Through kind of calm, when I can be calm and alone and just listen, then kind of the decision comes by itself. I just listen to it. The decision has been made or I am going… Sorry, I’m going physically with the things. So this decision already has happened and I’m just realizing it. So the calmness is like seeing what you’re actually doing and then it’s like, oh yeah, that’s just how it is now. Is that…? Yes, but then you can also correct on that. I can correct I’m doing this, but this is not maybe a better… I could do this better or a better idea could come. So I like this. As a kid, I loved improvising because it’s like improv and I thought improv is like to improve. Sorry. It’s a progressivism element there, right? New is better. Yeah, it’s not… No, yeah, exactly. It’s not necessarily better, but I kind of adjust always to… the thing that I want to do. That you co-identify with the spirit of the moment. So in some sense, if you’re actually capable of doing that well, then it’s also like you get to learn the spirit through the co-identification. That’s your way of intelligising what’s happening. Yeah, there’s a co-creation there that allows you to see where you’re at. Definitely. Yes, there is… Did you share what’s going through your mind? Yeah, so for me right now, this is getting… I was getting a little bit abstract in my head, so I just blanked out. But I was thinking of self-consciousness. So I guess a lot of times what happens is that… and this is why it can get dangerous with me, like also with me and also people that get too much into this thing and you get obsessed with one thing, because this self-consciousness goes away. And then it’s like, oh, I’m back to the Eden garden. But it’s not really. It’s just one garden that you have to cultivate and then go back. So, yeah. So if I re-articulate that in a different way, it’s like the flow state puts an enchantment upon you. And you might confuse that enchantment for something ultimate and then you get stuck in that enchantment. Yes, that’s the thing that happened to me. So I was around 16. I had… I kind of had to make this decision, what I want to do, and I chose dancing and I was very serious about it. I told my parents and I went away for the summer and I was just practicing. And then I really got addicted to this and I really got stuck, exactly how you said, got enchanted so much that I thought it’s kind of a cure for everything. I don’t understand why. Oh, I made all the spiritual mistakes a spiritual person can make. I was doing everything like I was bypassing. I thought it would solve everything what I’m doing. Just things will come into my lap. I don’t have to even talk. I don’t know. I became very self. This became my superpower. So, I don’t know, self-righteous? What’s the right word? But it is pride. Yeah, I guess that was right. Self-absorbed, maybe? Self-absorbed, definitely. It comes together with being a teenager, but yes. And yeah, so then… Then this didn’t work, so I burned out. And then I had to see… Can you describe how you go through a day in that state? What would you do? What was I… I was still doing… I played professionally, not professionally, but competitively I played floorball. I was kind of top, like best grade student. I was taking, doing training every day by myself on the attic of our house. So, I was doing every day one hour, two hours. And I was doing… I had the paper and I did ticks. And I had men like it a lot. Almost every day I did. I went running almost every day, stretching every day, dancing, studying. I was a literature major, kind of. So, then that was a big shift because before I was… That changed a lot because then I also read about Freud and that really messed me up. I shouldn’t have, I think. If I skipped that part, I wouldn’t have been done. Yeah, so this is how I was studying, training, competing, performing, sleeping. Not so… Because I’m a kid, weekends maybe if you go with my parents. But then I was very close and I couldn’t even… I didn’t even open… Sometimes I would lock myself. And this was very strange because before I was always with my family, with my parents. It was very strange for them, very heavy. So, it was strange for them, but it wasn’t strange for you. Yes, no. After a while I became very empty. Very, very… And then I started crying for I don’t know what reason. I thought, wow, it’s part of my journey. I can just play music and I cry and I keep dancing. So, it kind of… The thing that helped me in the beginning then destroyed me. So, then I later with my few teachers that I learned from that I realized that… So, if you enter this flow state, he calls it, you become your own healer, you become your own shaman, so to say. That means you can either heal or destroy your body. Both. You can do either or yourself or your mind, whatever you’re working with. It’s… And that was a key realization. It kind of sticks. And in this moment I was clearly destroyed. So, what’s the difference? How do you know whether you’re destroying or healing? Yeah, this is a great… I think the antennas, you have to keep them open. When I feel like I’m closing in and my relationships don’t reflect… When I’m not… When I have to run away after a practice, let’s say, if I just talk about the practice for a sec. If at the end I feel like I’m still restless, too restless, not in a way that I cannot reflect anymore, that I have to do something, I pick up my phone, that means the training didn’t go how I wanted. That means I have to go. I usually in that moment I cannot even write down, then I have to talk with someone. And now it’s not so critical, it doesn’t happen so much, but for example, my relationships really reflect where I am. So if I feel like… If I don’t feel like talking and that’s okay, that I don’t feel like… That there is not this… But yeah, but… Is that an apathy? Apathy. Sorry, can you clarify the word apathy? Well, it’s related to pathos, right? Like which is passion. And so A is the negative, right? So it’s a lack of passion, right? So when you’re in an apathetic state, what you’re effectively doing is you’re not receiving signals, right? Like the importance of, for example, the social relationship isn’t there for you, right? So there’s something where you tune out, right? You’re no longer participating on that wavelength. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That happens. And then I realized, oh, I don’t know, like that… That’s the thing what I mean, like through dancing, you can also tune. So doing it right, actually, that’s what it’s supposed to do. When we really dance together, like the folk dance comes to mind, which I haven’t done, or you just go to a party and then everything steps like this, you are vibrating, so to say, with everyone and the babies. That’s like the half sister of my girlfriend is here, and she challenges everything I do through just being. And this is what I love about, because she resonates with everything that we are doing. Because she’s so new to it, and of course she’s in chaos and she needs people to guide her, but she’s so attuned and whenever we start, she can read. If we start playing from love, she goes. If it’s force, she doesn’t. And I think that’s what we can learn. It’s something similar that we learn also as adults when we go to… when we dance with each other, that we kind of learn through this kind of nonverbal way to just listen to your body, to what that says, to tune into… Yeah, to tune into your systems, but also your sensitivity and your senses. So, this apathy, right? Like this destructive aspect, is that you get drawn in too much, or is it something else? Yeah, let’s talk about that more. It’s more interesting. So, there’s a sense, right? Where you said you had to wait till you’re done with the practice, right? And then you can reflect by the way that you’re acting afterwards. So… I think what you said about passion and in opposition, there is the non… no passion, that’s a good comparison because… Yeah, like this passion only lasts for a certain degree and then, for example, if I’m talking again about the dance world, like people become technical. And as a kid, I was really not against, but I didn’t respect technicality. But later on, it becomes very important because then you can do and enjoy the same thing, but you don’t have to use the same sources that you normally do because dancing from passion, that’s what I did. I kind of pulled mantras to myself. You have this pull and I consider myself very lucky and I think I was even grateful for it that I had a lot of this kind of from this source so that I can ignite the passion and I can pour it into something. But still, the thing becomes empty. So, and as when I became, started to become a professional, and by the time I really was burning out, I realized I had to start very differently. I was doing… I did something from minimum energy possible, energetical, like the most efficient way you can be in a dance class and only learn it technically. So how I… and that allowed me to explore with my colleagues a different aspect. I was not so interested in… I was still very interested in dancing per se, but I became more interested in… I was observing more the people, my colleagues. I was observing the teacher. I became aware of this conceptual world that existed outside of me or the space that I was in. I pulled out the glass. The space that I was in that I’m very unaware of. Shall I pause? Oh, it’s fine. It’s okay. So you were talking about acting out of force and acting out of love. Do you think that would apply to those two modes where the one was out of force and the other one is out of love? I think one was… I would even go further. One was out of use or abuse, and the other one was out of… But yes, you could say the same words. The one was out of force and the other one was out of love. So it’s interesting that you have those patterns reoccur in the different domains. So part of it was also that you now recognize this outside world, like the teacher, the atmosphere, the techniques, which are not you in some profound sense. You’re relating to them and you’ve refocused into that relationship. The depth of that relationship allowed you to find more, like a different way of participating. Is that so correct? Yes. Is that something that’s recent or is that like a process that you’ve been in for a long time already? Not quite a long time, I think already eight years. So I started in 2012, 2013 when I went to dance school. From then on. And it’s like from then on, I was just building bricks. And then I realized maybe you don’t actually have to build anything. It’s also fine. And then I realized, oh, it’s actually other people that I’m blessed to coexist with. And also at some point it was a big realization. It’s like a work like any other. And that really took out weight from my shoulders. It allowed me to step back. And that’s when I became more interested also in mindfulness, in other activities again. So I came out of this really narrow hole and kind of, yeah, started swimming. That might connect to the question I was intending to ask, right? Because we have this concept of acceptation where you have a skill and you use that in different areas of your life. So this realization of this different way of participating, like was it a thing that you were allowed or not allowed, capable of using in different areas of your life? Or do you think like going through that narrowing and then opening up that the opening up was the point where you saw that acceptation potential? It became, yeah, there was a key moment when I started to see and this came not only from dance, but when I started to practice this thing called the zero form and I started to do other things. But it’s okay. It really is the main, is dance or movement, let’s say. That’s, there was a key moment a few years ago when I saw the benefits of this being injected in every other part of my life. And that this I can share, I can give it out. I can, I don’t know, I went back home and I started talking with my father, but like I could not after, before, like when I was, we became friends with my father and this I could never imagine because, I don’t know, because he’s He’s your father? He’s my father, yes. He’s my father and he’s from a traditional background and he was supposed to be this person, but through this thing, he also goes to somewhere else. He’s my father, but when he enters, when we go together in this, something else that is now more playful and less threatening and less scary and I don’t know, because for example, and so to answer your question, Yeah, there is an exception, even when I go out and I want to order a drink or a dinner and I talk to the waitress, I wouldn’t know how to, sometimes I cannot read properly the social situation, I’m too analytic, but I become a little bit of a, I start to dance it a bit and then we are fine. I don’t know, it’s strange, you know, like this thing is there. So, yeah, so that point is, you were talking about the spiritual, right, like there’s a spiritual aspect that you’re kind of picking up again, but I assume also in a different way, right, because now you’re seeing a different value in the spiritual element. So yeah, like, what made you go there and like, what were you looking for? So again, I was in a kind of deep, not crisis, but yes, I was, I was, and I was in the meaning crisis with everyone, and I was, I was in a personal crisis because I couldn’t find, I didn’t have work after I finished my education. And I was doing projects and I, that was somehow not enough and not too up to the standards that I was expecting, blah, blah, blah. What really made me go there is, is that this is, is there, is it all there is? At some point I was a protestant, so I was protesting, I didn’t want this, still not at least in my upbringing. I was not, it was not enough, the thought is there, I was not enough to, that it’s like you, you’re just working and then you go home, then you eat food and then you sleep, you wake up, or you just have to find for work, and then you just have this apathy. This, I was, I was putting it more outside so that I can deal with it, that it’s maybe the problem is the reality that I’ve created for myself. So I go to this thing, and I go to the studio or I walk or I do a sit and then I dance to enrich that thing so that when I come back to my life, I can, I can, I can become new or fresh again and I can see the world, I can see the kind of invisible things and then those things make me satisfied for the day, even though I didn’t have work for two months. That really satisfied me, that’s it, for example. So, was that what you were looking for, or like was that something you like immediately found, or is that something that you’ve developed over time? I developed it over time. Right, so what were you looking for? Just trying to get out of where you were at? That was the initial thing, yes, you get out of the house, get out of the country, get out of, that was the initial thing, but It’s always like the people that I met, they are my teachers. Manuel is my teacher, is my teacher on how to abstract, how to see things, see categories or see something in a very elegant and abstract thing and form and And that allows me to think in a different way. I meet, I don’t know, I’m Yeah, this little girl that is here, she is my teacher in another way. So at some point this became very important who I’m with, who I’m meeting. That it’s about this, I think friendship, or kind of reciprocity or learning from someone. And what I was looking for is to break out, even when I went alone, to break out of this frame. It’s like the Shiva aspect of destroying the frame in an ugly way first, but this at least I contain into my own session. And opening that, or opening that, sometimes that also happens. I’m lucky. And then, and searching for what’s there, it relates to this hunger, not hunger, not hunger, because it’s not this to What’s the right word? Drive? Yes, there is a drive, appetite. An appetite, a taste, but there is a drive. There is a drive for experiencing something new or something different, or experiencing the same, exact same that I’ve done many, many times today. Because today is a different day. So, you’re starting a spiritual process. How does that interact with the dancing? Well, I think that’s allowed me to actually It’s like the space was like this, and then it became like this. That’s how I would say. So, I had only access for seeing that much, which is only the zooming into this dancing. And then when I do this other practices, allows me to see what, first of all, what the normal, so-called normal person sees. That was already for me a huge, I cannot believe that, it was like a breakthrough, huge breakthrough. And then maybe seeing something that is more than that. And though that happens, there are moments, at the end of the day, I go out to the balcony and see this, and then something comes or, then often it’s really the practice. So, when you’re talking about the swell part, the language I use is like a closed world. You know everything, you have control over everything. You have this normal person thing. The normal person thing is already accepting some of the unknown and uncertainty. Because the normal person knows that people die and, I don’t know, like cars break down and you have to call someone you don’t know. But then there is, you can train the capacity for even more uncertainty, I think. You can become more resilient to it and then, therefore, maybe you can become a, I think you can become a better person, more reliable person. So, yeah, I like how you drew in the uncertainty because that’s definitely where I was going as well. Sorry, I’m over excited. No, no, it’s great. So, there’s two aspects of the uncertainty. So, one is, well, yeah, there’s uncertainty in the world and you have to have a relationship to it. But there’s also a different level of uncertainty because if you have the closed world, you have full access in some sense. But if you’re in this big world, you can only pay attention to a small part of the big world because it’s too big to pay attention to. So, there’s an extra bit of uncertainty, like where are you pointing to pay attention? And then there’s also like, yes, you don’t know what’s there and it’s unfolding into you. We were talking about the spirit and in some sense that you see yourself through the participation. So, going through the process is actually making you aware of where you’re at within this uncertainty. But do you feel those two elements and how did you deal with them? So, in the big picture, let’s say, because people tell me, yeah, I like to use this term because people tell me I don’t see the big picture sometimes. So, now I’m practicing. So, in the big picture, I think it comes back again to the tuning. So, if there is all these possibilities of what I could do today, let’s say, if we stay in that frame or long-term in the plan of what else I could do next to my work. These are just little examples. Then this kind of tuning comes back. That what is it that calls for me now? And it’s related to my landscape of emotion because you cannot discard or kind of how am I, what’s my capacity now, how awake or how much, quote, unquote, energy I have for that. Or what kind of, what’s the quality of the thing? Do I feel more like building something today in the wall? Doing something really, I don’t know, it’s just like examples from the couple of days, like I’m cleaning the, I’m making something in the bathroom. And do I feel like doing that really now? Maybe that’s better than thinking about the creation that we are in right now because that’s the thing that, so like there is this landscape. But then I am not letting that go. I am with that responsibility that I want to do. I think that’s important. And then the other is the uncertainty and seeing yourself within it. This also is for me is like in a scale. So when the uncertainty goes too much up and I cannot, my systems cannot tolerate it, let’s say, or my, if I’m so achieved that my soul cannot tolerate it, then that means I’m putting too much or that it’s not that God is or the Spirit is asking too much of me. I am. Yeah, yeah. So, because, and then because of that, or I’m putting too little also can happen. And this is the thing that really requires reflection. So the doing, and then how the two goes together. Wow, this is, this is a question of the whole life. Question, like, honestly, I think. Yeah, friendship, forgiveness, often something that I want to. All right, that’s interesting. So you’re bringing in like an external achievement as well that maybe is the solution to that. Yeah, yeah, no, no. Yeah, I like that right just like we like I was saying right you have the big circle and you’re only looking at the spot and it’s like sometimes you need someone to point like, yeah, look there. Yeah, so yeah like I. Yeah, that’s a beautiful way to describe the value of, of, of other people right where, where it’s like, oh yeah, you’re doing this dance right and then you can get sucked into this reciprocally narrowed consuming fire aspect right where, where you’re effectively being destructive. And then there’s many ways in which that can manifest obviously. And then, because you can see right like you need someone else to tap you on the shoulder and say, yeah, chill out. Get off your ass. So, I think we’ve, we’ve done most things, so you’ve been starting to teach as well. Right, dancing. So that was to open up also a new, new way to be present with the dancing. You can talk a little bit about that. Yes. So, I teach. I started teaching first amateurs and professionals. I started a little bit later but they kind of both happened almost at the same time during COVID, because then there was not so many freelance projects. Obviously, for obvious reasons. So I started because of that, but also because it was something that I was very interested in from a long time. And I would like to talk about teaching amateurs first because I find this fascinating, more fascinating, somehow. I I’m a group of adults. So between 20, around 20 to 65 for a year and a half. And it just ended this week. This Tuesday was my last class because I’m going to transition to a company and going to work for two years there. But this process of working with a few of them for a year and a half was very, was very interesting because, first of all, it was my first real job that I enjoyed. And I see people, I have a leader of a boss or something, I’m an employee, I’m doing work with people that I’ve just met for that purpose. And I’m doing what I’ve learned, but I have to adapt it. So for example, in a professional context, the biggest constraint in dance is that you don’t speak. I think because many people are really used to using, we are talking right now, because that’s the most kind of effective, at least. Yeah, it is a very effective way of transferring knowledge and thoughts. So when, and through dance class, the teacher talks all the way through, but not in a professional class. And it’s much less because people already understand kind of the common, we have the common background. So, and when I’ve started with the amateurs, with the adults, it started like this, that I also didn’t speak German. So they asked certain asking questions that I couldn’t answer first. And they made me, I was just going through the movement. And I changed it and they said, no, but that was in a different way or can you do, I don’t know, it was first through also through online and that was very challenging. Because I couldn’t change the front. So I have faced, for my first year, I faced many challenges and that was very good because, I don’t know, like these people were very kind and they just wanted to do this dancing, these classes for only for purely for the sake of it. So there is not this very, when you do your profession, then you are more critical about it and you know all these things are there. So, yes, there’s an aspect where you have to relate to other people. And you have to communicate these, these days. I was kind of wanting to target, like how thinking in that way, right, because like I assume that you have to have developed a new way of thinking, right, it’s like, okay, like, I know how to do this, right, like I know how people told it to me, like maybe you don’t remember. But now you have to tell it to someone else, right, and now you have to look at yourself as if someone else is watching, right. Like, how does that work? Yeah, that’s true. It’s a feeling that start that I started with like, ah, people are looking at me now. Whereas also before it was the same, but yeah, it was definitely there. It was definitely something. I don’t know. It’s a hard question, but it’s a good one. So this calculus came into my head this kind of a new meter. How much am I overloading and how much do I have to hold back, take back, I felt then it’s more like the amplitudes of the room. Usually I never felt on me, I felt safe, like, and also I think they felt safe. I didn’t, I think, I think the space was safe. But there was, I could, you can feel in the room that it’s becoming too much or you can really feel when it’s, when the class is becoming too confusing or too brainy. And I had to see myself that actually I’m becoming because I’m kind of leading this, that I started to become very brainy right now. And that has influenced the class. So people are sitting and struggling through something which they could have managed. So I had to find again, it’s like this landscape. I have to find it in a different way to guide them through another path so that they can actually start exploring the movements, rather than only thinking about it. Is that something you feel like you solved for yourself or is that something that you’re still in the process of? I think it’s well in improvisation, depends what we’re talking. If we’re talking a regular class, I definitely have developed some tools also. So from the looking at me, as you said, like I’m being looked at teaching, for that I kind of had to fill in the image, the form. I have developed tools to also kind of positively put pressure. So sometimes I take the space and I kind of gently push people to explore a little bit. Or I developed, I’m developing this or I’m listening or I’m taking someone out and place like we worked on. You take someone out and you kind of let face or through a dialogue, small dialogue, or to let them face the thing, to face the movement quality that you’re working. So they have to show it. So that therefore it’s a little bit of a safe exposure. And from that, everyone else can also resonate with that. So that’s for example a tool I use and also I started to use. And also it’s my, yeah. Yeah, so she’s my partner, dance partner. So. So, so, so you see yourself as like your self expression as a tool, like you’ve been using that language kind of right where it’s like, very much so. Very much so. And also when I expand, like you expand a little bit through, I expand it through the space, then my expression also becomes the other person’s expression and their expression can become my expression. And that’s how you can kind of start to appropriate, not in a bad way, something. Like for example, this is when we are starting to jazz because this I loved in the last improvisation that we did, I started to talk about something we talked about action reaction. And then we actually started to perform it as well like I said to, as I was talking I was starting to kind of demonstrate it and people picked it up and everyone picked it up. The whole improvisation was set. Without me having to say, without me saying now we’re going to start, then I just had to just press play on the music and we let it go. Like this was for example. Like, I could, I’m not needed anymore. That’s, that’s perfect. Like that’s perfect. I’ve, that’s, I’ve done most of what I can. And then, yeah, there is also other sides where you have, when I was more educated when I wanted to, I want to educate about something. And then it’s about insisting. Not insisting, it’s about pointing out some principles that that will help the person to solve the problem themselves. So my ultimate goal is also for amateurs is to give as little cues as I can. And as little information, like, not too much information. So that brings up a question in me because like it’s a thing that I’ve been struggling with because when, when you have a person principles right like, and I think that’s correct. There’s, there’s a, there’s a problem of implementation right so there’s a reliance on the capacity of that person to find the right answer although I assume that, yeah, you’re, you’re in a operating in a space where right is a lot more fuzzy than the mental space. Yeah, well, it’s very, it’s very complex. And therefore, not many people look at it that way but there is a right like There is, there is definitely there is a like anatomical structure of if we are talking in this way but then it’s also unique to every person’s body. So, but there are some principles that are there like for example standing on the feet will engage the lot of the brain because the brain is a big chunk of the nervous system is responsible for keeping us upright and if I start like that, then already nervous nervous system is engaged. So this, this, these things are, there is a, there is a principle that leads somewhere. And what I was what came to my mind as you were saying about that. Sometimes it’s a, it can be a struggle is, is, especially when I was like this is one to have here. Okay, don’t see it. Sometimes I saw in dance you can see it also can see it on the person if they’re doing it. With the principle or not. But also you can see through time that maybe the change is not what I thought the change would be. But there is a change to some direction and then, yeah, then then it’s like, then then you are. Yeah, it’s just, I guess you have to be patient and also a person, a person will take what will work for them in the end. And then they develop their own principle so, or they will use the principle that suits the image of a tree. Yeah, that, that, that’s definitely a hard, hard balance to strike there right like how much do you push, and how much do you let people feeling for themselves. So, do you feel like we, we’ve entered into the present or like other pieces that we skipped over. I’m going to point out maybe one more virtue, which is courage. That is personally, a big one to cultivate for me. Because even if you’re, if I’m on, let’s say on stage, and people see me and I seem very exposed. People learn to put on masks and lie very early. And the courage to be the courage to be like the book, and to be honest, or the courage to undertake something is, is also necessary for, for not making so I think the kindness. And the courage, maybe not harshness but courage to also either to say something in the moment in the right moment, and not to hold back when it’s necessary or to do something. Yeah. And this, and you can do, you can still do something from fear, but you can do it also from courage or. Yeah. How does that relate to dancing like the dancing, give you a way to explore that or access that. Yeah, I mean, I would say from dancing I’ve moved on a little bit to other kind of activities related to dancing which is acrobatics. And this is, or, and I started parkour recently but but let’s say acrobatics is this fear is always a factor. And this overcoming or meditate, or, yeah, meditating on fear is a constant life process running parallel with other things in, in, in that in acrobatics and at some point, there is no more scale, there’s no more scaling just takes courage to do the thing and that’s it. And this is what it may let me allow me to face that you have done all the preparations you have, you, you cannot find an excuse not to do something. What do you need. Yeah. I have actually been thinking about that as well in a different way and it’s like, at a certain point you’re like, like, this is gonna happen right and like, I can’t spend weeks or months, not doing it, or I can just do it right there’s an acceptance element there. Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s very good even acceptance. Yes. It’s like I remember, Ray Kelly comes to mind because he was, he talks that there is this in aspect before you, you do a jump. It’s so true, I have observed always before I do something risky or scary. Now I started to practice this that I tell to myself you do it whenever you ready. And then something happens and then the moment arrives. And then there is there is a thing of, I can, I saw it happen, kind of. I saw it, I felt it happen. Good. And that’s when I do it. It’s strange it happens before I do it. And that’s when it happens well and it’s exactly how that’s why I said because it’s exactly how he described it. I think it relates, and there is this really big part of acceptance. Yeah. You mentioned the word tuning earlier right and it’s like, it’s like you’re listening for the right achievement. And then, when you have the right achievement, you can go there. Why, and I think it’s, it’s even a meditation, at least for me where, where that also is true right where it’s like, like sometimes there’s an experience that comes at you and you shy away from it. Right. And sometimes it’s like comes at you and you’re. You can let it go over you. Right. Yeah, that’s beautiful. You accept the consequences well. Right. Yeah. And that relates for me to being as good right like so if you just believe that what is right like these patterns that you’re participating in, they have a good expression. And you’re participating in, in that faith, right like that the outcome is going to be good. That that’s how you can get right like that’s how you can get the good outcome. It’s like necessary but not sufficient. So yeah, like, like, do you do you want to say something around for fake you like, like, and being on the discord is that something that particularly assisted your journey. Oh, yes. Very good that you’ve mentioned it. Yes, yes, definitely. Awakening from the mini crisis lectures have given a And these these words that everyone says the name being named the problems are being named or the even the ground has taken so that we can talk about things it’s kind of that’s what that’s what I’ve so the all these beautiful dialogues that came out of that. It’s because of this because of that. And I’ve started also to be to give credit like my consistent consistent meditation practice I started because of his meditation series on YouTube. Yes, yes. Yeah. It complements what I’m doing. It also interfere creates interference, a fun kind of interference but sometimes yeah it’s takes me out of the comfort zone. So, is it because that seems like a pattern that’s also running in the background where it is this is constant challenging the comfort zone. Yeah, no, that’s just even before it’s not related it’s just like how I was born, I think. I’m not sure if I’m the only one that’s been to be this annoying one that I don’t know. I threw a pillow if everyone is calm I threw a pillow. If everyone is calm around the TV and watching the movie, and it’s the best moment I threw a pillow, just to wake people out of that. I don’t know or not to spoil things but it’s part of the challenge I don’t know how to, and that’s, in order not to annoy people that’s why I do acrobatics so that I take it out, utilize it into something. Okay, so, so now we can maybe start pointing towards the future. So, yeah, like, like, where do you see yourself going, like, like, what are your aspirations. Right now just take an ideal version, right. I would like to definitely develop my work together with my partner. I have started a company that we have made work let’s say but we haven’t started a company yet. Really, like in a legal way, or. Yeah, and I would like to start that in the next few years. I see myself having children. I think to have children. Yeah, that, that would definitely change things. And being active and just kind of continue to develop what I’m doing my dance, my dance practice my teaching practice, maybe starting to from this play mode to not so interested in making a technique but but in the end you kind of have to think. Maybe two, if I’m less than that will go to the direction. Get lucky. I see. So, you were talking about this company. So that’s a dancing lesson. That’s, I would like to make a dance company. Right. So, so what are you going to do are you going to train people to do performances or this. This is to to sorry it’s a contemporary dance company, it means we make pieces. And we are creating artistically together. There are two of us or in collaboration with other artists. And this is more like a creative work, and this is something that we have been doing it’s very silly eating, but it’s super. It’s eating on the on the human. But it’s really also making. I don’t know, making things alive, and that’s why I love to do it. So that would be the component of teaching is to develop I’m developing together with my partner. We call it physical alertness. Our class, we also play with objects with it. And, and we have from influences, what we have gathered we are making some kind of a class which is very physical and would like to, to share and to, to, to, yeah, to share this dance and to wherever we go. So that’s like a low barrier of entry class where you just can do that with people in the festival grounds. Yeah, you mean, you mean no levels, so to say. Right. Yeah, that would be that would be the goal for me. So you’re looking to, like, is there an ideal as idealistic aspect behind it right because, like, like the way I’m thinking about it is like, that’s, that’s where the people need to be grasped in order to open them up right like where there’s there’s an entry participation, where they, they can have this, this feeling of the transcendent element of that participation right like you had in front of your shadow dancing with your shadow right like, are you trying to provide that moment for other people or is that me just reading too much into Yes, I mean, wow. To, to create that space. Yes, that would be, would be incredible I think but I also don’t want to share the difficulties that, let’s say, I’ve very stubbornly put myself through. So that’s why I do it together with someone so that we can maybe cancel each other’s sticks, and maybe some person, a person doesn’t get too, too much attached to one of us. So we can. Yes. And this entry. Yes, that’s very interesting. Because you have nowhere to hide. If you do it like that, if also there is nothing to hide. If you don’t say, I cannot because I’m not a professional or I cannot because, because I am a professional. You can, if it’s something without any so called labels. Yeah, labels or levels or. Yes, then. Yeah, then, then the. Yeah, as you said exactly how you said like that there is a just participate in it and have to. And also it doesn’t matter. That’s the beautiful thing about the grace, grace of this grace of it. So you were talking about attachment, right, so just that’s, that’s one of the difficult things right you can you can open people up. But then, like you, you have to catch them right, like no, they’re open. Now they have to do something with it. I think you were talking about about that tension right when when you just let them go right they’re going to go to the trials, like they need a mentor effectively right and was that the challenge that you were talking about when people getting to attach to, like, like you said, the process that you want to engage in. Yes, so the process is that you take on yourself your own child or your your own challenges and obstacles, and the good part of the process also good good good part of life, the good part of the journey. I personally was to attach to one teacher, and as halted me back. So, yes, I think you have to You have to inspire them and that and everyone has a way of doing it, the good teachers that I have met. And had some kind of a tool to to let people close that I think my favorite one that let people very close but still be very distant from them. I don’t know how you do that, but that’s that’s something that you that that person has and we are able to develop something similar. But really it it and it comes through. Like all these things is is most important is the joy of doing it and the training itself like the most like I sent a message to one of these mentors. About principles and about I will try to do like this my class, I will try to guide them and I tried to put them into the unknown. He says, most important is that you train. I don’t know. It’s very simplistic, but also me that I train so that I go and I dance with them. So then Then then I also experience and I can feel it much more than I also. Oh boy, I also have this many challenges. I’m not that concerned. And I don’t know that that somehow that somehow eases up this burden. Yeah, I think I think maybe he’s also trying to point out a different aspect right where when if you’re too much in your head. Then the being in your head, you start constructing this world of how things should work and how things should be. And then Instead of participating with what is you’re going to try and manifest this imagination and then you’re, you’re going to use force again instead of love to bring that back in. So I think I think that’s that’s the warning right like we, we have to keep ourselves grounded in in the participation right like in in reality because if if the things that we’re thinking of, like, we can’t make them do things in the world. And their, their inhibition right like their distractions there. And so everything has to find a way to serve your goal, and you do that by doing right and not by by planning. Yes, and you learn by doing also. Right, you, and this goes back to the potential again right like when you’re doing that’s that’s when you get to engage with the potential can’t get to that potential in your head. So, yeah, like you mentioned kids, I want to go there a little bit. So, do you think you’re going to like like how’s the dance aspect going to influence you raising your kids, because I think that’s going to be like really presence I guess in some sense right the embodied aspect. Yeah. So, first I share my fear. My fear is that because I’m, I’ve chosen dance instead of being a doctor, I think I will be a more stupid parent. Just because of just because, no, because I don’t have to solve everything through my brain. Of course, yeah, like it’s, it was a provocative statement that I don’t think it’s even true but it’s possible that that my kid, because I will be probably very playful with them I will be physical with them. This is what I, I think that is, is good to. Yeah, it’s okay to be to play to be and to also play with your dad. Because I know that can help. And then, within that, because this will make things complex, and it was already complex but I have to make the boundaries. Well though, as a parent. So, and that will be probably similar like a lot of anticipation, imagining and trying and trying and testing and that doesn’t work and change and all of all of this will will happen. But I would, yeah, love, just love them. But also, because I mean, I met this kid who is really not like me, who is much is a girl she’s very interested in other things she’s eight, and I had to realize, oh, she is not because she doesn’t like me or she doesn’t like what I’m. It’s just that she, she’s interested in something else. This thing that she said about force that for me it was taken for granted that she will like that because she’s a kid she wants to climb and then eventually she liked to climb but only to a specific thing she didn’t. She liked to climb to a tree, because of her own interest but you just have to follow them. So maybe that’s also something, because she didn’t want to climb on a rock. She preferred the tree. For example, like another dance. It’s another dance and I have to, I have to follow that. I think that would be the beauty of it. And how to not to get too tired because, of course, if I just play with them all the time and I was so retired, because I’m not, I start to age, and then I will see how much energy they have I already feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you feel complete. Yeah. So, yeah, you, you still hang around this good like is there some, some places you want to point people at. Yeah, definitely the sign up sunglasses. The morning and afternoon in Europe, or the morning in the US. Create places to to keep going to to or to explore to get into the meditation. And it’s just much more fun than just doing it alone. And also, like, is really good stuff being good conversations happening. Good ideas being cultivated. Yeah, this you get into another. I think let’s do the vina is also amazing. The, what you guys have developed in group. I haven’t tried yet the dialogue because I have been getting very busy but that’s something that I would be interested in the fellowship, the logos. Yeah, I mean, I think also, this is a, so our. It’s also a big platform with so many things to explore and that’s that’s also the fun of it that you can really try and. Yeah. It’s a very good place. This cord, I need like, what I, I wish to come again but I also wish to see in person, or in the, because I like to be outside. There’s going to be me to do this. Great. So, how about you, you summarize your lesson like what’s the lesson that dance taught you in throughout your life. That That life is or events are difficult, you’re capable to face them. Hello. Without anything external to trust your structure your systems. That your point of view is one point of view, and there are really many many point of views that are allowed to be respected and actually beautiful. Can interact with them. But the heart will dial. And the sharp will this quote anything hard will, or the sharp knife will get broken. Get on your feet and do stuff. If you can go from the feet up, then can go up to up to down. Yeah. Okay, well, I’m. I’m going to thank you for being a guest and I will invite everybody to share their lessons from this conversation and in the comments section. See you all again on the next episode of unfolding.