https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=7K6sWYLpaVA
Okay, so I’m speaking with your own amateur and you may remember that dr Amate had invited me a while back to speak at Ryerson University on a Saturday and that’s been a rather popular YouTube video and He’s been defending me and and making comments about free speech on the Ontario Psychological Association listserv that’s correct. Have I got the details right? Yes. Well, maybe you could tell everybody what’s been happening. Okay Sure, so back in November One of our members I won’t put out her name But she wrote a piece where she basically I’ll just say what I wrote. She basically said that That you shouldn’t have a forum for discussing what you were supposed to discuss and that was the talk that you were going to Have at the University of Toronto the debate, right the debate exactly, and so she wrote a piece and put online and she posted to the listserv and Essentially wrote in my email to the listserv. I’ve written a number of comments about this And mostly I’ve been saying every time one of your stories comes up or another similar story comes up I’m posting it there saying look this is what’s going on. This is not some mad ramblings this is a legitimate concern about ideology run amok and Either I get met by silence or I get people, you know Ask me why I’m so angry or why I’m taking so personally or I get people emailing me back channel Mostly older people mostly older psychologists who say we support you completely But we’re afraid to say anything because of the consequences and what do you think there are what consequences? Do you think they’re afraid of? That I don’t know. I mean I some of them work with these colleagues others may be trying to get professorships They’re trying to get tenure and they’re afraid that these people who do a hold, you know positions in not in academia could hold them down I think that’s right. It’s a perverse effect of the tenure system Because it tends to silence people before they have tenure and so then of course they practice being silent And by the time they do have tenure if you’ve practiced being silent for eight or ten years then or six years for that matter Then it’s gonna be pretty hard to break that habit. So so what so what are they objecting to with regards to your postings? So whenever I post something it starts off pretty neutrally and I’ve written a long Message to the Ontario Psychological Association I sent it to the president I asked him to read it to them they are convening or they had convened a meeting to deal with this issue and It was very very long and I said I have not actually done anything wrong I post links to stories such as yours like the last Friday one at McMaster And then somebody it goes one of two ways either somebody will impume my character or my motives Recently somebody had implied that your message is full of hate they actually use that words and someone who has hate in his heart You know so and by extension myself or they will ask a question and I will address it but for the most part they’re mischaracterizing what I’m stating and So I’ll simply say look I did not say that show me where I said that and more often than not they’re not picking on Any specific issue it’s just the the theme Because on the OPA apparently if you’re on one side of an issue It’s okay if you occupy a different position they won’t accept it And so what what do you think is going to happen and what have people like you said they’ve convened in a so-called emergency meeting about this issue and right, so do you have any idea why it’s an emergency and and and what what they’re planning to do Well, I think they consider emergency because one of the board members She’s the one who wrote that piece saying that you shouldn’t have this debate and I she took umbrage at a post that I wrote Where you know she’s from Oisey and you know, I don’t say this like I’m not being facetious She is from Oisey and another person who instituted the studies and education for those of you who don’t know and it’s a You might if you were feeling charitable you would recall it regarded as ideologically possessed Right, so so she’s from Oisey and she’s the one who wrote the piece and then somebody else from Oisey Wrote what anybody any reasonable person would say it was a fair comment Which is basically trying to say look can we all just be a bit more polite in our tone more respectful and she listed five points That we should all aspire to which I don’t disagree with But the problem is she’s also from Oisey and there’s a subtext to the message Which is basically this message is directed at me So what I did was I wrote and by the way She posted this after the president had already shut down the discussion as soon as he shuts it down I you know, I retract I’m not going to say anything but two other people put postings on and they you know directly You know, basically like I said, they they mischaracterize me and they look may try to make me look bad And so I spoke out and in one of my pieces I said to her if you really believe in what you’re saying I said, please make sure you apply this to the people who are on the other side the ones who are calling to shut down This discussion I said The president of the OPA shut down the discussion what exactly does that mean how does he I believe how does he do that? Well, he sends out an email and says please this is getting a bit out of hand will you please not talk about this That’s about the extent of it and reasonable people will you know refrain? I shouldn’t even say reasonable. Let’s say People are trying not to cause conflict will stop posting which I have done and their concern is I think that the tone gets Out of hand and again, I don’t think there’s any tone the worst you can say about my tone is it’s blunt There’s no name-calling It’s literally every single time I say show me where I said this, you know Or if you you know, you’re mischaracterizing that or I say your argument is irrational. It’s sorry. It’s irrelevant basically You know don’t appeal to emotion. We’re dealing with facts here. Let’s deal with them and you know, and the tour and do you have any? Examples of the sort of things that you’ve posted that that you could read or share with us Certainly so in one of the posting so this woman who again posted something that seemed reasonable I Basically said to her I said some I’ll just read this a couple of paragraphs Some members might find my direct rational logical and fact-based fact-based messages Not only with respect to the issues themselves But also with respect to claims made by those who disagree with me for instance when I respectfully state Please show me where I said or did this to be rude offensive or inappropriate Which to me is a gross misuse of such terms However, some of those same people have directly stated or implied that I am a misogynist a transphobe a bigot hateful reprehensible unreasonable and unwilling or unable to engage in respectful discourse The next step is where I got where things got heated. I said moreover and I mentioned the other colleague I alluded to a few minutes ago explicitly stated on this list serve in November that she did not believe that Jordan Peterson should have been given a forum to discuss What any reasonable person would agree is far from an unequivocal issue She posted a link I posted to an online article She co-wrote and this is critical that stated her reasons for what most objective people should find a concerning call for censorship of not only non hateful ideas But also scientific investigation and discussion as well as civil debate about poorly conceptualized and worded Legislation that could potentially cause unforeseen harm. I Wrote that and her response was she actually posted her response And I had an urge for her for quite some time and let me just read it She posted or an amity I have just as much right to express my opinion as anyone else I already put you on notice once but I will say it again. Please leave me alone That’s what I think led to the emergency meeting and you know, look at the context I have every right I have just as much right to express my opinion as anyone else But why would she be calling for other people not to have that same right the hypocrisy is astounding and so I really don’t know they may ask me to you know to leave the OPA they may ask me to leave the listserv I’m one of the OPA strongest advocates. I just you know, I every time I’m on in the media I will mention the work that they do they do a lot of excellent work including the president Sylvain Roy He’s done excellent work for homelessness and for promoting psychology So the worst they can do is try to kick me out. I know that this member in question was trying to you know Enact something against me some kind of you know some censure like more formal censure. It never happened aside from a public rebuke On what grounds precisely I mean you read some of the things that you’ve written I mean, why is it that you’re being Targeted well first for an emergency meeting which seems a bit like overkill, but perhaps it isn’t But what is it that there? What is it that they have on you so to speak that would result in in censuring of that sort? They literally have nothing because I’ve not called anybody names, you know, even when I called a member immature I didn’t name them at all. So the worst they can say is the tone might become a bit hostile But this is what worries me. I again I might be forceful. I might be blunt I might be repetitive and verbose, but I stick to the facts And right and the problem is those facts are on the wrong side of their ideology And that’s what’s propelling them and compelling them And the other thing is that so as I mentioned that he just sees quote unquote dozens of complaints from members Who this is what is incredible who are basically saying that they do not want they can’t tolerate the distress that comes along with knowing That I’m writing emails to the listener and that they might you know, give up their membership This is the kind of issue that’s going on And again, if you look at my post and I’ve written to the OPA and every time someone criticizes me I specifically write show me one thing that I’ve written that’s inappropriate or offensive Yeah, no one’s ever caught and they can’t and you have a record of all these postings. I presume I have them all yes And there is there anything in them that you would be I mean that you’ve written that you would be unwilling to make public Assuming that you could get rid of names and so on that might identify people Is there anything that would make you uncomfortable about revealing publicly? The only thing I’d be concerned about is making sure that we’re not violating some ethical code You know which I guess would be portraying the psychology or psychologist in a negative light I don’t know if this qualifies is that I think this is having an honest discussion about personal bias That You would only be I would suspect responsible for portraying psychology in a negative light if your portrayal was Unfounded from a factual perspective. I I would presume I mean Reasonable leeway in a in a in a policy of that sort although the problem is those things are subject to interpretation Right, and that’s my concern is that interpretation? I will see legal counsel. I don’t know if our coverage cover, you know applies to such a situation But I will ask the lawyers that we have you know insurance for and see if this would would count as that I really don’t think it is To you if anything as a consequence of hosting me at Ryerson, I mean that was got a lot of attention The only consequence is that people have been thanking me for being someone who’s you know standing out and saying you’re standing up and Saying we need to have this discussion Nothing so far Now the thing is my next contract is coming due at Ryerson I’m a sessional lecturer been teaching it for 15 years I always get positions applied for because I’ve taught so often I taught over 160 courses at five universities excellent reviews and If I find this term that’s the first time ever that I don’t get the positions I apply for that’s the consequence I don’t think that they would do that I think we have a pretty strong union, but I don’t have tenure as we’re talking about I don’t have a secure position And I’ve got a very busy clinical practice But to stop teaching to be not to be able to communicate with students who want to learn who want to you know learn about critical Thinking and being motivated to challenge ideas. Yeah, that’d be you know a horrible consequence. Yeah. Well, there’s always YouTube, you know, I Mean, yeah, there’s light of what’s what’s facing you but you know It is certainly possible if you’ve got something to say that that people need to hear and that actually constitutes reasonable quality education that In a I would not say precisely in a pinch, but it certainly is an alternative and you have full control over that Well, it’d be very interesting to see what happens with your with your contract renewal And we can certainly have another talk at that time whether it goes badly or whether it goes well either way, so What do you think’s gonna happen to you what do you think’s gonna happen to you overall as a consequence of this What are you afraid of if anything? I mean the worst that could happen is that somehow the college decides that this is you know This warrants some kind of heavy sanctions that would be you know, if somehow I lost my registration over this right If the college of psychologists got involved in Ontario rather than just the Ontario Psychological Association Because the college for everyone who’s listening the college is the body that regulates clinical cycle clinical psychologists licensure in Ontario and to have them Make any action against one of their one of the one of the licensed psychologists in Ontario That can be a very very serious thing. That was definitely something that worried me Well, it still worries me to some degree But certainly worried me a lot back in October and November when when the remote was more negative When the university was responding negatively for example to what I was doing and sending me those warning letters I mean so far nothing nothing has come of that but Yeah, I mean and that’s the only real consequence Yes, it is and you know and practically speaking Let’s say you know the Ontario Psychological Association with serve the OPA listserv a lot of people send out referrals And so if I’m qualified to deal with one of the cases that they send out to you can be guaranteed that certain people will Pass that referral my way my practice is busy enough as it is, but you know that would be a potential consequence This is why other people might not want to speak out You know and again if I’m applying well It is it is this sort of thing that that is why people don’t want to speak out and it also I mean I get letters hordes of letters dozens of letters from people who say exactly that that they’re afraid to speak their mind students and students and people from all other walks of life who are afraid to speak their mind because they’re targeted by by people who have Censorship on their mind and malice in their hearts I would say and who are willing to use whatever means necessary to intimidate people whose opinions they don’t agree with So exactly it’s really not good And the thing is though this is what’s worrying me is that the the OPA the OPA what I can tell from you know The comments that people don’t see what you’re saying. I mean I think you’re they think you’re being hyperbolic Reactionary You know they say show me one case and now they would the thing is they always apply it to the transgender issue And I say please try to see it at a different level. It’s not just about transgenders That’s just you know that was the context under which happened the actual issue look if this was about Preferred pronouns it would have died out in about a week And it hasn’t died out at all quite the contrary and everyone with any sense knows perfectly well that this is about far more than Preferred pronouns that just happened to be the issue du jour so to speak and Yes, but but I have to say though that the most recent when I posted the the talks that you had on Friday At McMaster University. Yeah, where they you know shamefully Shut you down you weren’t able to speak when I posted that you know Somebody wrote to me and again, and they wrote to me privately and then publicly on the listserv asked me about why won’t he just say? They are focusing on that yeah, even though we can clearly see it’s a deeper issue This is the rigidity with which they they’re seeing React a reaction The reaction why won’t he just say they to viewing what happened at McMaster University is a little bit on the peculiar side I might say so you know it’s it’s what do they say swallowing a camel while straining at a gnat I think that’s how that saying goes so All right, well so is there anything else that you wanted to talk about tonight? Or is that does that basically cover your concerns and describe what’s been happening to you reasonably well I? Think it does I mean and I’ll look into it and see you know what I’m able to maybe post publicly So that people can see what kind of discussions are being had you know I won’t put any names It’ll just simply be you know this this is the manner in which we’re we’re we’re communicating To that would be that people can judge for themselves right whatever you know because at the moment It’s sort of he said she said which is not a great way I mean, it’s not like I mean certainly I’m listening to what you say and believe that you’re portraying it accurately But it’s much better for people to be able to make that judgment themselves So that would be that would be a useful thing to do assuming that you can do it without compromising yourself or anyone else in any unreasonable manner But I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to make things like this public because well if you can’t make something public you really have to Wonder what’s going on? You know if right so if there’s a restriction against sharing what’s been happening on what’s more or less a public It’s more or less a public forum. I know that it’s it’s part of the Ontario Psychological Association But it’s not exactly private communication And if you’re going if you’re going to get in trouble for what you’re posting and it’s unreasonable It would be useful for people to be able to see that but you can decide that so right well Well, I do want to if I can say one more thing just because I do want to be fair to to Sylvain I mean as I alluded to earlier his concern is that it might be violating You know some OPA OPA is hosted by the APA the American Psychological Association For whatever reason and he’s concerned that you know that it might be violating that so for him shutting things down I have no problem with that if he’s worried about that reason It’s the it’s the I guess the message coming from the other members Which is essentially they themselves are saying shut it down because we don’t want to hear it And they think I’m being just too again too arrogant or forceful but again, that’s not the real reason the real reason is that they don’t like what I have to say and But again, I understand the you know the ostensible reason for which you know they’re shutting down the discussion I just want to make sure I’m clear on that. I don’t want to misrepresent that that’s what they’re saying Yeah, yeah, well I mean It’s hard to hard to know what to say about that I mean I appreciate appreciate what you’re saying about it I mean still seems to me that the whole point of a listserv is so that people can communicate their ideas and I Do believe that we’re entering an age where forceful discussion is going to be regarded as somehow oppressive and violent and the problem is It’s very difficult to discuss anything of importance without a certain amount of forcefulness which you know is also directness and bluntness and and speech that’s to the point and we certainly don’t want to interfere with that and Otherwise, well for obvious reasons for obvious reasons All right, well, thanks very much for talking about this and I guess I’ll know we’ll know very soon Exactly how this went and maybe I can talk to you again when we find out Yeah, I’ll also give you an update to find out what what they decide