https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=m99lvhpzZZQ
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unfolding the Soul. Today we have Pastor Paul Van der Kley as a guest. He always talks about how to status people and how that changes the conversation. Not this one. No status here. No status here. He is calm to explore his soul in the sorely needed to be discussed subject of service. So let’s start with the first question. What is service? Your well-being at my expense. You want to expand that a bit? That’s I when someone said service for this, I thought that’s exactly right, because it’s my parents very much lived lives of service. My grandparents lived lives of service. And so for me, service was a big, big part of the Christian faith. And so and service is often putting the needs of others ahead of your own. And it gets really complicated because it’s often putting the needs of others ahead of your own family’s needs. And that then becomes a tension between, let’s say, the pastor’s family and the pastor’s work. And that was and I’d say that’s that’s been a big story for at least three generations in my family. So it has to do. How juicy is that? Did you think it wasn’t going to get juicy? Well, we’re going to we’re going to get real juicy. So we’re talking about a trade off. And then the trade off is between something that you’re building for yourself and your close ones. And I guess a sort of new blessed oblige, right, like something that you can provide because you’re you put ahead of others in some sense and that you want to you want to give that back. So what would be the means by which you’re of service like money, giving money, giving money and giving time and attention, money, time and attention. And and again, the if this really gets to say what the apostle Paul says in in First Corinthians seven, where Paul basically says, I wish you could live as I where I don’t have a family, because once you have a family, your your services divided because you have you owe service to your spouse and your children. And your parents and you owe service to the Lord and service to the Lord means basically service to everyone, often the least of these often people who have endless amounts of need. And so, I mean, this is this is touched on in the Gospels. And but, you know, for I think, again, for three generations in my family, these have been issues and and figuring out the trade offs and the balance between serving family and serving others the least of these. It’s a hard thing. So when when you’re serving others in some sense, it’s it’s like we’re providing things to the whole world like like bringing some some equality in in the attention that people get. And obviously, because the world is too so big, and it’s even bigger now, because you have more access to more people. You got to be efficient. You got to be efficient in choosing who to serve. And what way to serve. So do you have a way to deal with that. It’s there’s no hard and fast rule. So, for example, growing up, my father worked morning, afternoons and evenings. Almost every day of the week, and that would be delivering food to people, helping people move when they had to move, going to court, visiting people in jail, visiting people in the hospital. And and so if and in in the minute in my father’s ministry, there was always someone in need. And so he would he would be there to meet it now. At some point, you have to ask, when does helping hurt? And there’s actually a book written by that title. When are you are you in your in your helping someone? Are you in fact perpetuating a disability rather than some people could probably stand to be left with the need, which would probably perhaps force them into a confrontation with themselves that they need to that they need to have. And those are really hard questions. And and I’ve dealt with those kinds of questions a lot during my ministry, and I’ve probably responded to them in ways often different than my father did. And my father, as he did this kind of work for 40 plus years, learned along the way. And as he aged, he found he started making different decisions. And it’s and also the communal conversation has continued to change on this as well. So. It’s a big issue. It’s a it’s it’s and you know, it’s an issue that when I went to the Dominican Republic. I really had to deal with because Patterson was one thing depression era Midwest where my grandfather ministered was one thing and then the Dominican Republic was another thing and the dynamics were totally different and. Often in the Dominican Republic, because the what a dollar could do in the Dominican Republic was so much more than what a dollar could do in Patterson and my grandfather just didn’t have any dollars. You would think that you could really help because you could give a transformative amount of money to a poor Haitian. But there were many of them. You couldn’t give a transformative amount of money to all of the Haitians. And then often what would happen is is you would wind up. You would make you would make the decision. Sometimes you would find a really sharp young man or young woman in the neighborhood and and you knew that with their level of character and diligence and intelligence that if you could get them a. An American level education, they could have a dramatically different life. But then you also risk taking that person out of that community and now the already impoverished community will not have that. And leadership resource that they would have had if you never intervened. These, these questions, just so often there’s no answer to them and it’s not like some theoretical no answer in middle class America where you shrug your shoulder and say we can’t decide when you’re working with people who are living on that level. What you do or don’t do will have a very observable outcome that will mean different things to different people and and sometimes it can mean life and death. I remember when there was a pastor who he was old and he was in the hospital and. I was the family that just kept paying hospital bills and I went into the hospital. I talked to one of the doctors and the doctors basically said. You know what we’re doing for him. We bring him in here and I don’t exactly remember what they were doing, but basically we we do these things on him and then he he lives for that. He’s good. Better for another week or two and then he’s back in here. And I. So then at that one point, I just went to the family and said I have this amount of money. I have this amount of money. You can spend it on his hospital bills or you can spend it on his funeral because I knew that when he died. They would need money for the funeral too. And all that’s involved in a funeral. The rental of the of the you know they rented grave burial places the casket. And the food for the mourners and this was a pastor meaning you know there were going to be a lot of mourners because everybody would come in and so I basically said to the family. I’m going to give you this amount of money. You can have it for the hospital or you can have it for the funeral and they decided they’d want it for the funeral. Okay. And so he died and gave it to him for the funeral. Now did I have to draw the line at that amount of money. I didn’t you know it I wasn’t giving so much that my children wouldn’t eat. But I remember a situation here in North America where a young man started a church plant in a very poor area of California where there were a lot of immigrants and migrant workers and I was working I was part of the classical committee on you know on church planting and then it came to my attention that he wasn’t. He wasn’t he wasn’t participating in the denominational pension system. And so I asked him I said why aren’t you participating in the denominational pension system. Well because my little church can’t afford it. And I suggested to him that that was he should make in their little church budget they should make participating in that pension system a priority. And he just basically refused so he didn’t opt into the pension system. But, and that’s easy to do when you’re 2728. I also know that I’ve also known pastors who opted out of the pension system and then when they became 6570 75 years old were destitute and the churches that they were serving were then over a barrel, because now we’ve got this point we can’t just sit here and watch and be like, oh, we’re a dollar what are we going to do. And so, all of these trade offs with service, how much to give when to give how much time and attention attention is one of the biggest ones if you’ve got family and children so this is the these are the kinds of challenges that really a lot of stuff like it’s arguing about stuff on the internet. It’s such. It’s arguing about stuff on the internet. Okay. But when you’re dealing with these kinds of questions. That’s hard for me. Well, let’s go to the start. Okay, when did you get a first idea of what services or like, like, how did I get introduced into your life. It was mapped onto me before I was conscious of it, because it was just watching my parents, who’d watch their parents. That was how to live. That’s what you did. It wasn’t a conscious decision. Because it was just what you did. And so it’s not till you’re much later in life when you begin to see trade offs that it’s like, oh, this comes at a real cost, and it comes at a cost, because basically, if it came at a cost to me, that’s fine. But if it came at a cost to others. And then suddenly, wait a minute service to others. Others include my wife and my children, others also include anybody who knocks on this office door. So that happens later. That happens when you’re in a network where not everybody basically has the same assumption and level of service, or someone has, let’s say, left the Christian faith because of a intergenerational service and they look at it and they say I, I spent my whole life giving for others, and I was the loser of that and I’m no longer willing to give and so you’d better prioritize me. And again, you’re there in the middle. So how does that work so you’re basically drainage in the service. So it’s like, whenever you can start walking, you start walking along or is there like an initiation that. Well, when I was a boy and my father was going to somebody in Patterson needed to move from one place to another. My father would have me come along, because, especially once I got bigger so I could start to carry things. And then I could help him move appliances so I would just go with my father to help people. And I would see that the phone would ring in Patterson and I would pick it up. And, you know, it was people needing food, and they, I would was always taking messages we didn’t have an answering machine back then we had three little and for for answering machines the wife and children of the pastor. And so we take messages, and then when someone would call and there was a need off my father would go if I was playing a game with him or if he was even just sitting in the house reading my father would go we’d have vacations. And then someone would die and then the father and mother discussing. Do we cut the family vacation store short and go back to Patterson to help this person so it was always there as a kid it wasn’t out there as an issue. It was just always there. Is there a transition where you consciously start suing yourself. Pursuing service or per se are pursuing the conversation about service. Well either like it is what was the conversation about service the thing that was present, like, not in the, in the sense of, like, should we do it but like, is, is this the thing we should be doing more so by, by the time. By the time myself and my sisters had left the home. I think it began to dawn on my father that he had missed out on something he wasn’t getting back, which was his children. And you also begin to notice a pattern in ministers children that some of them are bitter and resentful towards the church. And that doesn’t really sort of come up until teenage and then college years. And, and, you know, my father had to, you know, he had to, he had to think about that, and he had to. But then then it’s too late it’s just regret, because when you’ve got kids, they are in some ways so demanding that if you’ve got a demanding job and if you have children, you’re, you get whatever little me time you can get, but then, you know, the children are gone, and you begin to realize those people are gone. And, and one of the, one of the things you do realize as a parent with children that I have a little device here which has pictures of my children, I guess you can see it down there. You know pictures of my children. And those little people and their little bodies, they are no more. And now, praise God, none of them have passed they’ve all grown up and so they’ve changed and flourished into young young adults but those little people are no more, and as much as we love them as much as we enjoyed having them. They’re gone. And so if you always made the choice to help anyone in need and opted for the strangers in need rather than your own children. Well, you’ve made an exchange. So do you feel like you’ve went the same path as your father like, did you see the same dynamic to which your children as you had to your father. No, I probably. I probably prioritized my children more, maybe not as much as my wife would have had me do. It’s a constant conversation with my wife, because she winds up becoming the children’s advocate, because they can’t advocate for themselves. But I think my ministry profile was a little different from my father’s. I had temperamentally to. I’ve got more of my mother and me and so I did have some lines that my father didn’t have I don’t think. I think there was only once that we interrupted a vacation for a funeral. Even that was only when my wife and I were on vacation, and we discussed that together and so came to a to a mutual decision, but. So I probably. I think I balanced it better than my father I don’t know if I did it optimally, because you can go the other way and always prioritize your family to that also comes at a cost. So you’re growing up. Is there a sense that, like, being in service is like, changing you from people in school or like, like, how does how does that interact with. No, not again not so much in school in in a church community, you know, you’ll have a higher you’ll have a status hierarchy. And one way to gain status in a church community is to be exceptional in service. So your school and your church were like highly bound like yes, yes. I went to I went to Christian schools, tie it tied to my church K through 12 and then to Calvin College which is also tied to my church. And then the seminary which is also tied to my church so I lived within church school institutions all my life. In fact, thinking about my career then yes, literally, all my life. And then the question comes well do you do you follow in your father’s footsteps. So, like, yeah, and I did. Yeah, you know how did you make that decision like, like, that was a hard decision I never really wanted to. My wife very much wanted to do mission work. So, I didn’t do American inner city mission work like my father did. We went overseas, but then when we came back. This was a kind of work that was attractive to me and I knew how to do it, and my wife. Probably appreciated the, the dynamics between a pastor’s wife and a church are different in more of a mission church like this one than they are in an established church and an established church. Some of the expectations on the pastor’s wife tended to be a little bit more set. Yeah, this I wound up, I wound up quite accidentally doing very similar work to my father. After we left the mission field and found I really enjoyed it. I still enjoy it. And that’s part of it too. It’s not that service is unpleasant to do sometimes it is. But there’s, I have a lot of joy and helping people, especially when you can really help them that’s, that’s really wonderful. Doesn’t always work out that way but yeah. So you go on the mission work before you have a sense of what you wanted to do. So is that like a year or like how long did you go there? Six years. Six years. So you just take six years of your life before you know what to do with your life? I’ve never known what I wanted to do with my life. And so I didn’t know I wanted to get a theological education until my fourth year at college and then it’s like I think that would be fun. But I’m not, I don’t want to, I don’t want to go and do the same work that my father did. That’s what I decided. And then my wife’s like well I, her parents were missionaries in Africa so, and she was a Spanish major so she’s like well why don’t we go somewhere in Latin America and live in Latin America. That’ll be fun. So we go and live in Latin America. But, you know, you think life’s going to be a certain way and it never is and then you begin to learn. And then you have children and that totally upends your life. So, as it wound out my wife who really wanted to do mission work wound up taking care of our children. And me who probably would have rather had more of a life of an academic. I’m out there working with people with almost no education. But I found that fun. I temperamentally, I’m a very sunny happy person. And I’m pretty satisfied with most of what comes along. And so I like doing mission work. I, it was fun. Booning around the country, dealing with Haitian pastors, the adventure of living in another country, learning another language. That was a lot of fun. Traveling. That was fun. It was all fun. And, and then I got to North America and I had two, two job offers, one for more of an established church in the Midwest. And the other for this one in Sacramento and this one looked like more fun. And it was very, it was in some way similar to the church I grew up in. Everybody here at this church was surprised when dealing with the homeless and the people who were always looking for people who were destitute and high needs people. They were, they were always, they were nervous at first. What’s Paul going to do with these high needs people? And it’s like, I’ve watched. This is, this is the ministry I’ve known my whole life long. So that’s not a, that doesn’t bother me. So I’ve enjoyed this. So you come in in this world, this undeveloped nation and there’s these certain needs. So how does that form your concept of service? Like does that change the way that you understand what you need to do? I’m there for service, you know, and that’s, that’s the whole gig. Now, what sort of threw me off was I’m there for service, but I live as though. So, so in, in North America, my standard of living was always sort of lower middle class, we weren’t hungry we had food on the table. We didn’t have nice clothes we didn’t have new cars, you know, televisions were always hand me downs. And I was comfortable with that because if you live a life of service, it’s sort of life. It’s not quite a vow of poverty, but you’re not far from it. So, good enough, and then you’re working with poor people and some of the church people in your church are quite a bit wealthier than you are. Some of them are poor, but you’re towards the bottom and so no problem and then you move overseas and suddenly. First of all, you’re able to get there. And you drive a car, and they’re paying you on a pay on a, on a wage scale that’s commensurate to what you would get sort of at the bottom of the material scale, and because life is weird and different things are asked of you. Then, you know you in many ways you in a in a developing country you live as though you’re a very wealthy person, and that that was strange to me, because I had never. I had never been a wealthy person and I had never had to make decisions about myself as a wealthy person. Now I wasn’t wealthy in comparison to North Americans, but I was wealthy in comparisons to the people I was, I was working with. And then suddenly, okay, so the pastor’s in the hospital and nobody has any money and so I’m the only one they know with money so they asked me and what am I going to say. Okay, well all right, and, and all the missionaries were in that the missionaries are finding different ways to try to help the people around them but then you get into these dependency issues and all of these issues that I never would get into a North America because I just didn’t have that kind of money. Nobody looked at me for money, because they’d have as much or more money than I would so it’s not an issue. And so service what is service mean when you’re a wealthy North American living in the Caribbean. Oh, that’s all new set of problems. You’re like a walking ATM. And even here at the, you know, even here at my sometimes I’ll kid because I’ll say you know did someone tattoo ATM on my forehead because anybody knocks on that door and they you know the gas stations right across the street and so they, they pull in there they have no money for gas they look up there’s two churches only one church has somebody sitting in it which is this one. So they knock on the door. Are you a pastor Yeah, I’m at the ampm and I don’t have any money for gas and I live in Fresno. I’m a tank. Okay. And you know filling up someone’s tank, especially in past years isn’t going to kill me but how many times can I do it. Then you’re talking about high needs people. So, there’s also a more emotional connection there I assume right when when there’s someone who’s actually dependent upon you in highly personal way. Well you’ve got some people who are always calling and asking. And you’ve got other people who don’t even let you know when they have a need that you could and would really love to help them. So, you’ve got to navigate that dynamic to. So how do you get that discernment, because like, is there like a social dynamic within the church that you’re privy to like. Well you make little rules for yourself sometimes and then you also work with let’s say so in the Christian reform church we have elders and deacons and the elders tend to manage education, some of the education evangelism some supervision of the pastor etc etc. And the deacons tend to manage budget, the actual needs benevolence these kinds of things and so if you’ve got deacons you can discuss issues with them. And you can also, you can always give money to the deacons, and then the deacons can make decisions and it’s also easier because if, if, if in the church you have an agreement that the deacons manage this then it’s not a matter of being buddies with the pastor so you can get help, you have to deal with that committee of your peers, and, and then there’s a lot more accountability and it’s usually a better system. But that doesn’t, that doesn’t ever deal with it all the time. There’s always issues that come up outside of it. And most of the homeless issues are, they come to me personally because the deacons aren’t here all throughout the week and I am. And so then I have to make decisions. And so like with one guy, he’s always borrowing money he always pays it back so basically I have about 100, and then I don’t have any money, because I don’t carry money. I don’t carry that amount of money that I know I’m willing to lend. And you know my father sort of worked out the same thing my mother managed the money and she would never give my father money. If he needed 5. Which would sometimes really surprise people. It’s like he never had any money. The reason he never had any money was that she knew if he had money, someone would ask him and he would give it away. And that was, and so then when he who would like do pulpit supply preach in another church because they’re and then they give him, you know, 40 or 50 bucks or something for preaching in that other church. My mother’s would let him keep that money because that was extra money and he could give that away. So that’s what would happen. So, my, my parents worked it out that my father never had money cash, because otherwise he would just give it away. And if he had managed the money of the house, then suddenly you’d have questions about getting the electric bill paid and food on the table. So she was like, I’ll keep the money for the house. You know, we’ll give money to the church. If you have extra money, you can give it away. If you need something you ask me. That’s how they worked it out. So, is that actually something you’d advocate like segregating these responsibilities so that people can, there’s a specialization that requires you or makes you effectively incapable of fulfilling certain other roles. Yes. Yeah, and often I’ll get, I’ll get requests and I’ll say, I’ll say, you know, one of the things that’s happened is churches no longer have local phones, which ours doesn’t anymore because they used to be bundled with our internet service and we got fiber and anyway so because people would call and they would have a need and I would say, Pastor, I can’t pay my rent this month. Okay. Come in on Sunday and talk to the deacons and and, you know, they’ll make a decision. And more often than not they wouldn’t show up. Which man, they found somebody else to give them money, or they didn’t need it, or or or or or or. Yeah, that’s nice because that’s like a filter. Right. And so then you get a sense of, you know, where is the need and there was other people there was a guy. There are a bunch of people there’s one guy who was basically living in a hotel and he was living in that hotel by getting money from churches, and he would, he would just go down the phone book, ask calling calling the churches until someone would actually pick up a phone, and then find somebody to pick up a phone who you who they could, who maybe would be in a position to help them and this guy. This guy would say oh I me and my mother just moved into town and we haven’t gotten on welfare yet so we just need a little bit of help until then. And so then he’d call me and I’d go down and help them and then he’d call me two months later and I’d recognize his voice and I’d say, hey, wait a minute. Didn’t I talk to you last month. Oh yeah. And, you know, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Okay. And then when the deacons were in charge. Then the deacons finally made a rule that we’re not going to help. Non members more than once a year. So then the guy figured that because the deacons would tell him now you know we helped you this year we’re not going to help you this year, then the guy would put it on his calendar and as soon as the year was up, he would call again. And the deacons are like, um, that’s not the kind of service we’re running here. And then and then he was all angry he said you said I could only help once a year. It’s a year later so and it’s like, is this an entitlement. So and part of the. My father would never say such things to people. And I that’s where I’ve got half of me is my freezian mother. And, and so I then I would say things like that to people. And, and they’d be they kind of take a step back because they thought pastors aren’t supposed to say that but it’s like, don’t play games with me. I’m happy to help you, but the church isn’t here to facilitate your particular lifestyle. We tend to help with emergency needs. This isn’t an emergency need. And in the United States. I’m not going to say that the social safety net covers everything but almost all of the homeless that I deal with. I know how much money they get every month. I know. I know what the deal is. And so it’s like, and some of them are very open they’re like, hey, I’ve got a drug habit. I’m probably not too interested in financing your drug habit. Mm hmm. Yeah, so so that that sounds like a good example where the enabling aspect is is really high, highly salient. Right. So like, what what can you do for a person that’s effectively self destructed. There was a guy named Billy, who lived for a while he was down here, right by my office I used to have kind of a string of people that live out here. And, and I eventually, I moved in because I knew some of the other guys. I knew that there was going to be violence if they were all there so I told him, he’s gonna have to move and so we basically moved to the way far end of the corner. So he lived in a shelter out there. He lived for five years in the corner of the property. And I’d go back there and I’d visit him sometime and say, you know, Billy is this how you want to live. He had, he came here he got kicked out of his house, because he was a meth addict, and his wife finally had had enough and she kicked him out. I’m not really out with this or that and again, rule of thumb, you know, I’m much more. If someone has a need I’m much more liable to give them food, rather than cash, because about all you can do with the food is eat it. If you’re hungry elite it cash. Sometimes they’ll help with cash sometimes I won’t. It all depends on my relationship with the people so another rule of thumb is develop a relationship with people. I’m much more likely to help someone that I have a relationship because I have a better understanding of what kind of helping helps and what kind of helping hurts. I’m much more likely to not help a random panhandler than to help someone that I have a relationship with because I have a much more confidence that maybe my help will go further towards a better situation for them. But he lived out there five years and we finally, I knew that when we put the gates up, he’d be in trouble because this 75 year old man and he wasn’t going to be able to climb the fence. And so I told him I said we’re fencing in the property, you’re gonna have to go. And he went, you know, he didn’t go until he saw that. Oh yeah, I not going to be able to come and go here at all. And he left an enormous pound pile of stinking garbage back there, which we eventually were able to clean up and clean out and just, there’s no end to this stuff. Jesus says the poor you will always have with you. Truer words were never said. So, it’s because you’re, you’re, well, we haven’t gone into this but there’s a material aspect, a health aspect and a spiritual aspect to the service. And obviously you, out of your function, want to lead into the spiritual. So, do you distinguish between those dimensions? And like, how do you, how do you do that? Like, are you saying if you’re not making spiritual progress, then like, are you making conditionals? No, like with, like with my friend Daniel, with a lot of the people that I’ve known from the streets here. I don’t know. It’s not going to change. It’s not going to change. They are, I’ve, I’ve seen enough of them die. Like just Gavin, through watching the camera, watching the parking lot project, Gavin asked, well, can you see the homeless people with that camera? It’s like, yeah, but not when there’s all these construction workers here. And so then I looked down the road and there was a woman named Linda. And I’ve known Linda about as long as I’ve been here. So for about, for about 25 years. And she used to, she used to sleep under the eaves with a guy named Larry. They’re both drug addicts. And so Linda had lost her children. Her mother was raising her children. And Linda’s been in the neighborhood a long time. And I just saw her with a shopping cart just, just a couple of minutes ago. Larry, eventually the guy that she was with Larry, eventually he was a veteran and he got some help from the VA and he got, I think to one degree or another off the drugs and the alcohol. And he got inside and he eventually got a car and he did well for a while. And then he got sick and died. A lot of times what happens with these people is they’ll, they’ll, something will happen. They might break a hip. I’ve known a number of homeless people who broke hips, falling out of trees, getting hit by cars. And then they wind up in a hospital and then they’re discharged from the hospital to a nursing home. And then they might just be in a nursing home until they die. Every now and then someone will be killed in a car accident or in street violence. And that’s usually how most of them die. So I’d love to, like again with Daniel, Daniel, I was just talking to him. He had eight years of sobriety about a dozen years ago. Those are pretty good years for him, but he’s in his middle sixties now. He’s got hep C. You know, he’s going to die with this. He’s never been able to really get his bipolar under control. His, you know, he usually he’ll come to me and I’ll give him a ride to the psych hospital when he gets bad enough that he can’t use alcohol because alcohol for him is sort of the way he stabilizes his bipolar. But his esophagus is so bad because of years of drinking, he’ll get to a point that he can’t keep anything down and then he just gets dehydrated. And so then I’ll take him to the hospital and they’ll flush his system, fill him full of vitamins and everything. And then he’ll be able to eat and sleep again for a little while. And then he’ll be in the hospital for a few weeks or a month. And then he’ll get kind of bored and kind of miss the drugs and the lifestyle and get out again and around we go again. He’s going to do this until he dies. So in that sense, I sort of adopt a hospice posture with them. Some of these people have been in and out of rehab. More times than you could imagine. Others. There was a woman at this church who she was already here when I got here and she came here she was a schizophrenic and the women of the church just sort of came around her and helped her sort of organize her life and she had enough discipline and family support that she was never homeless the time that she was here. She came to church very regularly, you know she always was a little odd but everybody just accepted that from her she was pleasant to be around. And then she, she, with her particular meds sometimes, you know, basically what happened was sometimes their meds would make her sort of go stiff and she fell and she hit her head. She was alone in her apartment and she bled out. And that’s how she died. And, you know, I, that’s a success story because she was able to live for the last 20 years of her life, a decent life with community and friends. So there’s a success. You always, the path, you learn that as a pastor alone. There’s little you can do if the whole community gets around someone. You can do more. But many many people. There’s, there’s, they’re going to die with their conditions. So, yeah, my question was going to be in relation to organizing service right because you’re leading a church right so you were saying that you were like delegating responsibility. But, but in some sense people are also serving you right in order to serve the church so like what, what’s that like. Yeah, that’s, that’s a good point. So, part of the weird thing of my vocation is that I’m paid to serve. And, and so then I try to sort of specialize. I try to do the kind of service that most of the people in my church can’t do so some of that is pastoral. So my specific area of expertise let’s say pray for people do funeral services for people do formal visits of people in the hospital. That kind of thing. And sometimes it’s be an example of service. So hold on so the pastoral part is more, I don’t want spiritual support I wanted to say emotional support for that that’s kind of wrong right but but it would that be correct description or are you also filling in a pragmatic guidance role there. Both, both. So it’s I’d say it’s more specialized. So for example, doing a funeral. I, I can do a better funeral eulogy than anybody in my church more than likely. I know the Bible better I have theological training. I have experience doing liturgy. I’ve done lots of funerals most people, praise God, have only a limited number of funerals that they’re responsible in their life. I’ve participated in dozens of funerals. So I’ve got experience at things that most of the people in the church don’t have experience and so part of my job is they pay me to be that specialist. And so that’s that’s sort of the specialty thing but sometimes it’s also an example so we’re having a workday Saturday Saturday here’s here’s a great example again Saturday is my usual day off. But, but, and Saturday is my day off because my wife is a school teacher. Saturday is her day off. And so Saturday makes the most sense to have our day off. We, many people will get let’s say a weekend away I, my wife and I don’t get weekends away. And so, except during the summer when she’s off. So, this Saturday we’re having a workday. I, it would be easy for me to say, I’m not going to be at the workday because Saturday is my day off. Yeah, but Saturday is the day off for just about everybody that’s there too. So, I am going to. I’m going to, I was at church Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday. And then the Saturday after that I have to help my daughter move. So you wind up, then it’s like well, why don’t you take another day of the week off well my wife is working and so my wife wouldn’t appreciate it say honey. I’m gonna, I’m gonna drive through beautiful Northern California today while you go to work. So, I might as well work when she works but you just wind up working all the time. And that’s not a terribly good example to the people the church either. So it’s just all these balances. Can you give like an idea of what you spent your time at work. I don’t know I make videos. Before I made videos I did reading and writing and visiting people and talking to homeless people and preparing sermons and fixing little things in the church and doing denominational things doing you know all those kind of things. So there’s a there’s a level where you like you’re fulfilling a duty because it’s presenting itself and then there’s something above that which is what you’re called to do. Right, so I’m called to prepare Sunday school classes and sermons and worship services, and to be available to people to talk about whatever they want to talk about to help with other ministries of the church to help people who are in need. And to educate myself and prepare myself to continue to be able to be theologically competent and and also aware of, you know, moral and social issues going on in the country. I mean it’s, there’s, there’s really no end to a pastor’s scope of interest or responsibility. And then of course the whole YouTube thing came along so which has, you know, which the church has very much encouraged and blessed and partly because many people out there, you know, support the church financially now. And, and that’s become, I gotta be careful with those words because it makes it sound like living stones is this massively expensive ministry the, the things that minister that living stones costs living stones the most is my salary and keeping the building up. Well, and the parking lot. Right. I didn’t think we’d ever see this I frankly didn’t think this would ever happen. Because it’s, you know, our church budget is what $125,000 a year it’s our church budget, I mean, it’s, it’s not nothing but it’s. So, so yeah, so, so yeah, the YouTube thing is something in which you’re somewhat unique in the way that you’re doing things. I think I think you’re partially viewing that as well as as a surface to people. So yeah, how do you think about that like how do you do that. Well that was what’s funny about the YouTube thing was that reading. I mean, until Jordan Peterson I wasn’t watching YouTube videos. YouTube was a place to see cats play. I didn’t know that there were lectures out there I was listening to podcasts I was reading books. I was reading blogs. I mean I was always reading and thinking, and then I was sort of blogging my thoughts and I was discussing my thoughts on CRC voices and that was all part of sermon preparation and ministry preparation and doing denominational work I was working on denominational committees and things and. Anyways, the, the conversations are an extension of pastoral care and evangelism sometimes the. Well hold on, I want to, I want to take a stop at the conversations right so there’s part of the conversations that you publicize. And part of them that you keep private. Right. And then there’s, well, like some sort of ethical question around what, what are you serving right. You see a lot of good in the sharing of these, these conversations because like you’re proud of them in some, some way. I was, well, that whole thing was just a surprise. So, to comment on Jordan Peterson was that that was that was sort of extension of what I had done with blogging and writing on CRC voices I would see things and I would have to think them through and I think them through out loud so I make a Jordan Peterson video then suddenly people start sending me emails. So I start responding to the emails. And then people are like well can we Skype. I talked to anybody who comes to my door I suppose I can talk to anybody who comes through the internet to my computer. So then we start Skyping and zooming. And, and then I began to notice. Boy I’m kind of repeating myself in a lot of these conversations I wonder if I could sort of cut it off at the pass by having an example conversation and posting it on the internet. And so, so what what is the way in which you’re repeating yourself, because you’re repeating yourself when you go outside as well right right, but on the internet. People are watching the channel, and they have a question. And unlike, unlike when I get questions repeated to me on the street or in the church. I can record it. And people can look up the answer. Street as well. Now that wouldn’t work. Someone comes up to me on the street and says pastor blah blah blah blah blah wait a minute wait a minute and you know, let me go through my smartphone here’s my answer to this. Can I email this to you I mean, the internet, plus just the, the number the scope of people via the internet I mean this is a small church and there were a lot of times I did not get the kinds of questions I started getting on the internet. And, and I was getting way more emails than I was like, how much of my day can I sit here and respond to all of these emails I’m cutting and pasting during emails do sometimes. And, or I’m putting in links and then when I’m talking to people on Skype it’s like, you know, recording a conversation so then when I started posting conversations. Then there’s a new idea because people are like, well I want to be on the channel having a conversation because people are watching each other. And then they’re meeting each other and a community is building and then it’s like oh, oh, okay. All right, well let’s see where this goes. And it’s just kept going. So, yeah, so you’ve you’ve followed john for vacay with awakening from the meaning crisis and and I assume that partially because of the types of questions that you were getting in in the conversations was that the thing that drew you to engaging there. So as a pastor. You realize a few things. If you just sort of do biblical exegesis people fall asleep, and they don’t remember it. If you just do abstract theology, people fall asleep and they don’t remember it. If you tell a story. Well remember, you learn very quickly that you can repeat the same abstract theological points week after week and nobody will complain. But if you repeat a sermon illustration, people will be like, you told us that story already. Oh, so you remember stories. Okay. So, what you’re always doing as a pastor is you’re looking for stories you’re looking for illustrations that are examples of the abstract theological points that you want to make. Now, in ministry, you are surrounded by examples of those points you want to make but you can’t use them. You can’t stand up in church and say, I’m going to preach about adultery so yeah you to, you know you can’t do that in a church. Get up front. That’s right. So why did you step out on your wife, I mean you can’t do that in a church, but what the internet provided was. I can talk about adultery with Bill Clinton or Donald Trump or Hollywood stars because their adulteries are already out there in the open. So what the internet provides is a whole world of, you know, if you want to talk about if you talk about atheists, everybody goes to sleep. If you talk about Sam Harris, a whole group of people stay awake, because they know Sam Harris. So what the internet provides is an entire world full of illustrations where you, you’re not just playing with abstract ideas, but you’re, you’re, you’re talking about stories and living human beings and that’s way more interesting than people. So, so now suddenly, and you know with John Vervecky. So now suddenly we’re not just. We’re not just talking about Sam Harris, we get to talk with a non theist. And it’s a lot harder to straw man someone you’re talking with because if you straw man him in front of him, he’ll, he’ll, he’ll, you know, he’ll tell you. And the better way is to actually have good conversations back and forth. You’ll have better conversations and it’s, it’s, it’s an improvement. And now we can not only do this, but we can share this. So I saw all of this as a tremendous ministry opportunity afforded to us by technology that was never available to me for most of my ministry before. So, we’ve been talking a lot about tell us in this little corner and also in relation to the tell us of this little corner right so you’re. So you’re saying well there’s this development and now we have this thing. When you’re saying, I want to show this story, right, like why is it important for that story to be out there like what’s the tell us in which your conversation with the atheist is participating. So if my main goal is to help people get a little closer to God, and now you can, you can frame that in a lot of different ways but let’s just take that as my main goal. Having real conversations with real people is always better than canned stories, there are books and books of sermon illustrations because someone you know people knew that pastors needed sermon illustrations and so, but that’s, it’s just gross. And so, the real things and real people’s lives are almost always more impactful and transformative. And so, you know, you are a real person and people who know you. They might disagree with you they might be different from you they might make different decisions from you, but there’s a reality to you that they can’t deny. And that’s always more powerful in ministry. So is there something that you, you’re trying to draw out them, like is there a specific because because I’m. I’m looking for the direction I like like where, like when you’re in a conversation where’s the conversation go, like, I want to bring them closer to God. Now, that’s a. That sounds very vague, and for every individual person it might look different, it might bringing them closer to God might mean they get to tell a story in a way that they’ve never been able to tell before. And that brings a little bit of insight and transformation for them. It might mean that they, they get a little bit of healing, or a little bit of truth, or, or something of that nature and the the image of God in them is restored, just a little bit more today than it was yesterday. Generally speaking, there are very few home runs happen sometimes, but they’re usually there’s usually lots of other stuff going on to most of the time it’s small incremental work, it’s what I, what I sometimes call word gardening. It’s because a garden is a much better metaphor you don’t. You don’t. I mean, all you can do that’s fast and a garden is prune. Yeah, a lot of the rest of the stuff is just slow. You put you do a little fertilizing you, you know, maybe you cut away to give the plant a little bit more sun, you, but it’s all, it’s not, it’s not unlike healing so doctors don’t, generally speaking, unless it’s surgery. Doctors don’t heal people, doctors help the body to heal. Pastors don’t fix people pastors hopefully sort of put people in a place where they can draw closer to God. Okay, so now that’s effectively what you’re talking about is one on one pastoral care, right. Yes, but now you’re also doing that with an audience. Yes. Yes. And the audience has different needs from the person in front of you. Yes. And so like how do you navigate that dynamic. Well, I’m, I’m quite used to that, because it’s that same dynamic that I have in a church sometimes it’s one on one in an office. Sometimes it’s preaching, or doing Bible study. So, and it’s also in church. You treat you relate to people in front of the church. And that teaches people how relationships are supposed to be in church. So, so there’s, she’s, she’s, I don’t know what she, not Nancy’s gonna watch this and she’s going to tell Nina Paul’s been talking about you on the internet and nine is going to be nine is going to throw a little fit but she can throw a fit if she wants to so everybody at this church knows I have a relationship with Nina knows I have a relationship with Nancy my relationship with Nancy is very open because Nancy’s often on the Freddie and Paul show my relationship with Freddie is very open. The main thing in church. I mean so churches are delivery systems for sermons for Bible studies for helping with food or rent or groceries or their places where people can go to serve because services in need of ours too. So, churches are fundamentally networks of relationships, and people learn how to relate to one another by watching all the other relationships. And if there’s a pattern of relationships that pattern will get copied. And if someone, if you walk into a church and somebody stands up and start screaming at their kid. Everybody watches. And we don’t pay attention to that pattern of relationship, but we’re always seeing it. So, what I’m doing on my channel is hopefully, like as in church, giving some information using illustrations giving people something to think about, but hopefully also helping set a pattern of relationships for people to emulate. So, I’ve been talking with Mark a lot about second order effects. I think, hold the whole Christianity is basically second order effects. What’s the second order effect Can you give me an example. Well, so, I move my hand, right, and then the air moves as a consequence of me moving my hand right so the first order effect is me having a direct relationship right, it’s my expression of my will. Right. And as a consequence of me participating in a certain way in the world, all this stuff happens. And, and so, when I say something to you, right, like I have an intention, maybe in getting a response from you right but like, I might also invite a dynamic between us. So, that’s like a second order effect of my question to you. Right. So, so when, when you’re talking about gardening, right, like when you say well I let him more light. That’s effectively relating to the world through second order effects, and I think Christianity is effectively. I fix my relationship to God, then I move through the world, and everything will be provided to right so like the whole world you’re living in second order effects. In some sense you’re, you’re incapable of, of having control, direct control over these and at the point that you’re trying to take, take control you’re corrupting them right. So, so now, going back to the church and the network of relationships right like you. Well, you, you got to deal with those relationships to second order and even so stirred order effects right because like they might go through a whole dynamic so so I guess the question is how do you, how do you deal with that right like like how do you navigate on that level. Well, first of all you can’t control it. You never know what all is going to come from what you try to do and there are always second and third order effects. You pay attention and hopefully, as you observe and learn from your observation you develop wisdom, and over time, you learn. I like your I like I like where you’re going with this because what I see often is people. People don’t recognize these different orders of effects and so they take the direct approach. So, let’s say that’s having both, by the way. Oh, okay. Okay. So they think okay well pornography is a problem in the church let’s tell everyone to stop doing porn. Okay. Well I said it but nobody listened to pastor so if you say it people will listen. And first of all, you’re like, I know that’s not true. So okay, don’t do porn, and then maybe you discover that your admonition to not do porn has not resulted in any less. You know doing porn in the church, so then you begin to ask yourself. Why are people doing porn. What’s this about. Where does this go. What, what kinds of things do people need because actually the issue isn’t porn as such, necessarily I’m not saying porn is good. I’m just saying, you might it might be alcohol it might be a whole range of things. And what you learn is that people are. They’re multivariate and enormously complex and if you actually want to help someone do better. There’s probably it’s probably most of what you’re going to have to help them with is going to be indirect. And then the service can be direct, but most of the time, you’re probably going to spend a lot of time setting up a relationship, so that someone will really trust you. And then once they really trust you, then maybe you’ll be in a position to do something directly, but almost all the time is building that trust. So that they know you’re not going to hurt them. And then maybe you can help them, maybe. So, no, you’re exactly right. It’s almost all second and third order. And what you learn then is to do things at a slant, in a sense, and this drives people crazy all the time because people imagine it’s all about direct and people like to imagine that direct works. But if you watch people long enough you realize there’s a limited group of things where direct works. Most of the time, you’re, I want to help this over here so I’m going to move this over here, because I found when I help them do this over here, this gets better. I don’t exactly know why, but I’ve seen the pattern. And so a lot of ministry is that. Yeah, I want to add right because like when you’re talking about addiction, like the addiction fills a hole, right. And like when you remove the addiction you need to have something to take the place and if you don’t prepare to take the place thing, you can. You just have a new addiction. Exactly. Or you fall back after a week or whatever. Right, right. So yeah, you’re in, in real community you’re very, you learn very quickly that yeah the second order stuff is really important such as for example. There. So, so one of the things that some churches major in is sort of. Oh, let’s I don’t know let’s see hardline accountability. So there was a pastor in town who he was known because I’d hear from other people. There’s a lot of churches in this town but this is a big church. Everyone was afraid of that pastor, and the pastors, the pastor’s main ministry tool was fear. You know what that meant, would you call that fear of God, though, or no I was fear of the pastor, because he was going to call them out and you know all this stuff. Well some people thrive under that but for the most part, what, what people usually see you do is what they will do. So he set up this big chain of fear. The problem with that is, then, people would be telling me things like yeah I go to that church but I haven’t been for a long time why not. Oh, because you know if I go back the pastor is going to yell at me. Oh, okay. So, how’s, how’s that pastor helping you live in the way that you know and think that and want and think you want to live when you’re just avoiding the pastor because the only tool he uses his fear. And you see that all the time. And that’s where, but you can’t also just be so then you have the opposite side which is the therapeutic, which is like oh it’s just it’s just all therapeutic. That goes sour too so it’s all about learning when and where and how that’s wisdom. These are all the tools. Find out when and where and how each tool is best applied. So I’ve personally found the demonic language right like really useful because when you’re like, well, when you’re, are you having this problem right when you’re using the psychological language is like, like that’s whatever but like, do you want to be possessed by this but do you want to let yourself be controlled by this. Right. Like, you’re, you’re asking the pride, right, like, to counteract but, but it’s, it’s a good first step right because like, usually, what is lacking is the motivation right and fear is the beginning of wisdom right like so, like, the motivation. By, by realizing that it is a serious problem right and it’s going to keep chasing you if you, if you don’t find the means to handle it is is important to get you moving right like you shouldn’t get stuck in that dynamic but but it’s it’s a good way to bootstrap someone’s action so. Where am I going. Well, yeah, so that’s at least the way that I found like the spiritual aspect right like is more real than whatever psychological framing, you can provide because, because you have a relationship to it right and under, like it’s coming from above right like, and it’s taking you over. Unless you find a means to resist that. Yeah, the language is going to be contextual for different people too. And when you, when you wind up dealing with a lot of different kinds of people, a big task is figure out which language group will probably be most efficacious towards the moving them closer to God, see and even saying moving them closer to God there’s a lot of there’s rooms that I wouldn’t use that language, because So is that why you’re scouring like the whole history for language or like, yeah, yeah, and I’m listening I’m very I’m very careful to listen to what kind of language has what kind of impacts where. And I also have a bias. Once once someone starts, you know, starts going to church. And I’m less worried about them because they already have a pastor. But if they’re not going to church, I tend to prioritize them because they don’t. And so I just, you know, And so then sometimes people will be. I will sometimes have Christians get a little frustrated with me because they want me to do more Christian YouTube. And I say there’s already a lot of Christian YouTube. I don’t find Christian YouTube very interesting. I find. I find it much more interesting to talk to people who aren’t going to church. Because they don’t have a pastor. And so maybe in a strange way, I’ll sort of be their pastor through the Internet. And even though I’m not really their pastor, because I don’t really think you can have a very difficult to have a pastoral relationship over the Internet. I agree that there’s this. Yeah, like there’s this group of people that have a need and like they need to be catered to more so than the people who have a structure that caters to their needs. So that’s completely fair. So, yeah, I usually try and get to a point where we’re like, are we in the present of your of your life story? Like, are there gaps in the story that that we’ve missed? I don’t think so. In terms of service, I think we’ve pretty much covered the landscape. OK, so so then I’m I’m asking the aspirational question. All right, so now we’re going to go five years into the future. Everything that you want to do is working perfectly, ideally. So so what do we see? Do we see you in five years having a new influx in your church? Are we seeing you muttering along on the paths that you’re on? Or are you are you going to like have a highly successful YouTube channel or maybe you have like an idea of what like a structure that would be under you when you’re having your YouTube channel that would support these people? Like, where do you see yourself? I’d like the church to still be alive. I don’t know that I want the church to be huge because if the church is huge, then I don’t know if I could do the YouTube stuff. If the church would grow quickly, then maybe I would hire someone locally to do probably hire a young pastor and you know, use that time to mentor the young pastor and get the pastor ready to take over for Living Stones when I retire in seven, eight years. Is that something that you’d like to do? Mentor someone? I’ve mentored people all my life, so I would continue to do that. So, yeah, I think if if the church is if the church is going to live and have another major chapter, I think it would be. Then I think we would we would hire someone to, let’s say, be my replacement here. The one change that I don’t know that I necessarily need my YouTube channel to be a lot bigger than it is. I think at this point right now, the YouTube channel is sort of, you know, even though the subscriber number grows, given the churn, it’s probably staying. It’s just growing slightly, actually. I watch that in terms of views and hours viewed. So the channels, the channels at a good pace right now. I don’t want it to get too big too fast. So if we just set aside the church, right? Because like you’re going to do only YouTube. Like, what is the thing that you would like to provide to the audience in your YouTube? I think I’m already doing on YouTube what I want to do on YouTube. The thing I want to do more of is the thing that’s just starting now. So I so we have the the Chino event in May. I have an event in July is the Israelis get that to get I might be in Europe in October. Is that if the Israelis get their act together, I might be there in February. I would like to encourage groups of people to hold more in person events, because I think that sort of fuels the network at a different level. That’s the thing that over the next five years, I’d like to see continue to develop. OK. Are you doing that as a guest speaker or are you also trying to like have a supportive role in what you’d like to see on the ground? I’m doing both. So I’ve had a heavier hand in organizing the Chino event just because my relationship with John Van Donk and I sort of put him up to it. Cassidy is, you know, sort of leaning into the Europe stuff, although we’ll see what happens when she has her baby. Amen and Catherine are, you know, I think they’ll do another Thunder Bay event. But and and I think at some point we’re going to see more organization in terms of, let’s say, Catherine and John Van Donk and Cassidy and Fuzzy and Sam. So Chicago’s had their events. So I think we’re going to see at some point more organization at the level of the people who are organizing events to learn from each other. And, you know, almost right. You know, it was even before Covid. Sam said, you know, Pang burn, hang burn screwed up and we should step in and, you know, do what Pang burn should have done. And I agree with that to a degree, except it’s not going to be sort of atheist, new atheist stuff. It’s going to be much more this little corner stuff. But Sam wanted to sort of go at that directly in terms of let’s start an organization. And I thought, no, the timing’s not there yet. And so what we’re seeing now is we’re seeing bubble up from Cassidy and Catherine and John and Sam and Fuzzy. And so we’re seeing bubble up. And so once that gets to a certain level, because we don’t know yet, or on Marcus, we don’t know yet what the level of sustainability is going to be. We’re going to see like with Chino, how many tickets get sold. And we’re going to learn from that. And so as we do this, we’re going to begin to learn capacity and pacing. And so for me, in person, face to face events are more important than YouTube videos. So what would you say that this little corner is that you want to translate into face to face? Like, what would be the essence? I want people to have good conversation partners that they can continue to grow closer to God through. Yeah, I get that answer. Right. And then immediately my alarm bells go ringing. Right. Like, what does that mean? Right. And I think you’ve touched on this, right? Like you’ve said that, well, there’s these people who don’t have any education and like some of the best questions I know. Right. So what does it mean to grow closer to God and how do you provide that to people? So again, as I said before, I hope everybody has a local church and I hope everybody is participating faithfully in their local church. But I also know that in every local church, there are people like me and like you who you’ll get your sermon, you’ll get your preaching, you’ll get your fellowship, you’ll get your service, you get all service opportunities, you’ll get all of that stuff. But then in church, there’s always a few people who they read funny books. They’re interested in different ideas. They’re they they want to have a conversation at a different level than they’re likely going to find in their local church. And they find that that level of conversation, that level of inquiry, that level of participation and community is not easily found in a corner church, even though they’re getting a lot of their other needs met in that corner church. Well, this little corner is a place where hopefully they can be fed and when they’re fed what they learn at that other level, they will be able to bring down into their local church as well. So to the degree that it’s needed. So what’s the food on the table and who’s providing the buffet? Well, you know, so right now, the video I released today was a video about Kierkegaard. In most local churches, there’s really not a lot of point to bringing up Soren Kierkegaard. Because, you know, it’s it’s not germane to most of the people, but it is to some. How about Socrates? How about Plato? How about Jordan Peterson? How about John Verbeke? How about doing some next level thinking about this meaning crisis? And, you know, in some ways, you know, I do know that in the CRC, there are a you asked about mentoring a little bit before. I had I’ve had a couple on my channel. I through my, this already started with my blog before, but through my YouTube channel, I continue to mentor young Christian Reformed pastors about how to think about the meaning crisis, how to think about secularization, how to think about evangelism. And I in some ways, what I want this little corner to be is a really fruitful, helpful thing for not only members of local churches, but pastors of local churches. So in some sense, you’re an antenna reaching out of the institution, feeling how salty the sea is. That’s right. That’s right. Okay. And so so you’re also well, I guess, I guess that’s a process that needs to happen and the churches need need to update. They need fresh air, I guess, spirit coming in. So, yeah, like, like, this, this is, I guess, one of the things that I personally run into, right? It’s like, because I confession, I’m not reading Kierkegaard. I am actually drawing back for most of the intellectual stuff because I don’t see it leading anywhere. And then the question is, well, like, okay, right. You found the fish in the sea. Like, how do you draw it in and chop it up into something that’s actually a meal that can lead to somewhere? Because, like, I’m taking this idea of spiritual bypassing by John Verbeke, like, really serious. Like, like, I’m not saying like you can’t have a little spiritual exploration vacation thing, but like, there’s a rabbit hole, right? And you can get lost in the hole. Yeah, yeah, it’s true. It’s true. So, you know, so, use Kierkegaard. One of the things so the video today was sort of about when you listen to Christopher Mastropietro. And to a degree, also John Andrew Sweeney talk about Christianity and why Christopher is going to mass. One does not identify or worship in a Christian church. Andrew has more been exploring Buddhism, etc, etc. And these are important things to learn from. And in some ways, Kierkegaard was, is a really interesting person sort of in that mix. And there’s a reason why Christopher has sort of picked him out. And so Kierkegaard, Kierkegaard is sort of Christopher’s Socrates. What Socrates is to John Verbeke, Kierkegaard is to, is to, and if you look at it. I want to say one thing, because in the video, like John Verbeke said, like, we need Socrates Christianity or something. Where is like, well, we make like the more important part Socrates over the Christianity, like Socrates could subsume Christianity in some sense. Like, like, well, yeah, like, don’t you see that as a corruption? Like when you find that way in, in which you’re not really in, but standing on the outside on the shoulders of someone else? Jesus already conquered Socrates. I’m not worried when people try to go the other way around. Jesus totally, I mean, ask Nietzsche. Jesus totally owned Plato. I mean, Jesus, the Christianity has been the best thing that’s happened to Platonism ever. So I’m not worried. I’m not, I’m not worried about Jesus ability to colonize. He’s the greatest colonizer that the human, that this human race has ever known. So when someone says something like that, I don’t, I don’t necessarily agree with it. But I don’t feel the need to draw attention to it at that moment, partly because everything that you draw attention to you at least to some degree or another, give it some power, whether you win or lose the argument, you give it more power. And so sometimes the best thing to do with certain ideas is to not give them attention. Yeah. But like, damn, we lose the sermon, right? So like, I don’t think we necessarily lose the sermon because I again, like I honestly believe Jesus fulfilled soccer, Jesus fulfilled Socrates and Jesus fulfilled Plato. Now that doesn’t mean that Socrates and Plato go away. But I think Jesus fulfilled them. Yeah, well, okay. Let me let me rephrase it. Like in my mind, it brings up idolatry. So what is idolatry? Well, idolatry is effectively relating to the divine wrongly, right? Like, for example, having wrote, right? You’re trying to achieve to the first order effect, the thing that you should achieve with second order effects. So when I hear these things, right, like, I see people promoting idolatry. Like, I see idolatry as the primary modality within modern civilization, right? Because like, it’s in some sense, the thing that you get born with, right? Like, it’s the mode of the flesh. And you have to learn how to step out of it and get a different relationship, one through faith. Because like, if you don’t have direct control, then you’re going to have to relate to things in faith. Human beings are almost all idolatry all the time. It’s very seldom that we can move beyond idolatry. Now, there’s obviously levels of idolatry. But for example, if you’re going to, if you’re going to point out and call out idolatry every time you see it, well, what are you going to do with the television? Because every single commercial is idolatrous. You know, this car, this product is somehow going to make you transcendent. I mean, it’s, John Calvin noted, the human mind is an idol factory. And so we have to deal with idolatry in different ways. And to, to always have to point it out or call it out whenever something strikes you as idolatrous, you would never get around to doing anything else but call out idolatry. So there’s a time and a place for everything. And wisdom is knowing when to do what. And so, yeah, do I think Socrates, do I think you can substitute Socrates for Jesus? No, I think, and I think that C.S. Lewis put this very well. I mean, Socrates doesn’t, Socrates, here’s the thing about Jesus. Mohammed doesn’t say he’s the son of God. Socrates doesn’t say he’s, you know, the culmination of the world. In more, in some ways, part of the problem of lining up Jesus with Socrates and, you know, the Buddha or anything is, as C.S. Lewis pointed out, they all said very different things about each other. And at some point you’re going to have to deal with, Lewis, of course, famously put it in his trilemma. At some point you’re going to have to deal with the man who stood on top of a mountain at the end of the Gospel of Matthew and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Buddha didn’t say anything like that. Socrates didn’t say anything like that. Mohammed didn’t say anything like that. When people talk like that, we usually lock them up or we completely ignore them and ask them to move their shopping cart out of the way. Jesus said that, and yet he’s continually on this list of great human beings. And so that’s just a reality. And so, you know, I understand Jesus, Jesus for better and worse. Leslie Newbigin said the church is the hermeneutic of the gospel. And when the church, as, as it does so often, does poorly. Jesus is not seen for who he really is. That’s a perpetual issue in terms of the witness of the church. Yet Christ continues to work through his church. So I don’t, you know, it was the remember when the Taliban blew up those big Buddhas on the Silk Road because they were idols. I remember that they blew up a whole bunch of things in Syria. Well, there’s in Afghanistan, there are these enormous Buddha statues on the Silk Road that were, I don’t know, 1300 years old or something. And the Taliban blew them up because there’s idols blow them up. Was that a good idea for the Taliban to do that? On just about any level? Probably not. And so I don’t feel the need in a conversation to blow up. I don’t feel the need in a conversation to act like the Taliban. Jesus, when you look, when you read how Jesus dealt with people, he can be very subtle and very crafty. And he tells us to do the same. Sounds like a good place to get to an end. Well, good. You’re going to let me share this on this channel at some point, won’t you? This was great. Or is this is this exclusive to a Gothic orientation? No, if you want to put it on your channel, that’s that’s fine. I can share it with you. But I still I still want to ask you the question that I ask everybody. I think I asked everybody when we talked, it’s like, did you learn something about about yourself during the conversation? I did. I did. I really did. You helped you, especially your last question about the next five years. I think you had a couple other questions, too. I think you kind of pushed me to clarify some things in some ways that I probably haven’t articulated like I did today. So I thought this was really helpful. I really enjoyed this. OK, well, and then I’m going to invite everybody to comment on this video, whether it’s on my channel, a gap or orientation or on Paul’s channel. And then Paul can get some feedback about what you’ve got from him so that he can actually find you in his stories so that he can provide the message. Awesome. Awesome. This is awesome. I love this. Yeah, so I think you’ve been a great guest. Like, it’s always good to circle around these things that aren’t really talked about enough. Right. Because they’re in the background and like we need to shed light on these things. Right. Like, what are you doing during the day? Like, like, like, what are these things that people need? Like, like, how can we be involved in providing service? And what does it take off us? Right. Like, there’s a cost to us. And there’s a spiritual growth that we can find in the service as well. Yeah. Which is also important for ourselves. So thank you a lot for being my guest, Paul. I hope everybody to see you again soon on my channel. Thank you for having me. I still have to look up your talk with Catherine and Father Eric. I’m looking forward to watching those. Maybe I’ll make commentary on them. Right.