https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=qGgEF-SlSEU
Oh my gosh, this is the Silver Fox himself. Jordan Peterson is here. I’m so excited to finally meet you. How are you, sir? Hi, Nicole. It’s so nice of you to invite me. I’m very excited. So the new book is Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life. We’ll flip that in the screen. Not to be offensive, thank you for sending it to me, but I personally like this one more than the first one. Are you hearing that a lot? I’m hearing that more than I expected, and I’m happy about that. I mean, you hope that each thing you do is somewhat better than the last thing you did, if you’re fortunate. And it wasn’t obvious to me that I couldn’t tell if it was the same quality, worse, better. I tried to make it better. And I would say that’s the general response so far. Yay! It’s like Michael Jackson putting out Thriller and then putting out Thriller 2, and Thriller 2 is somehow better. So yay for you! I love it! OK, what we’re going to do today is 12 questions with Jordan Peterson to celebrate 12 more rules. Are you ready? Everybody always celebrates more rules. Everybody always celebrates more rules. I love rules because then I get to break those rules, just like you talked about with the Harry Potter characters, which we’re going to get into. OK, here we go. Rule the first. No, I’m just kidding. Question the first. And I just want you to be honest with me. If you could kill anybody and get away with it, like off with their head Queen styles, just one person, who would it be? I don’t think I can answer that question. You mean in my darkest fantasies? I won’t tell anybody. I have no idea how to answer that, Nicole. That’s a lie. I can see you thinking of someone in your head, but that’s OK. We’ll skip to the second question. I had a feeling. OK, how do you like your steak cooked? Medium rare to medium. Barbecued. Barbecue specifically. Well, it’s best barbecued. I personally think that’s OK. And I have a barbecue in the backyard and use it all the time. Are you a good barbecuer? Yes. And I watch the meat very carefully, and I don’t let it flame up and cover it with charcoal and dirt and that horrible oily grit you get sometimes in a barbecue. And I worked in lots of restaurants. And so and I miss cooking because I eat so little now. It’s just meat still. But I’m careful with the meat. I’m not that good. I got my dad a tomahawk steak last year for Father’s Day, and it flamed all the way up the barbecue up the side of the house. Right, right. Well, yeah, that’s generally not good. You don’t want your barbecue incinerated or cremated. That’s a whole different thing. Right, I agree. OK, next question. Can I eat steak with you sometime? Anytime you’re near. Yeah, all right. I feel like I’m winning this interview already. Once restaurants open again, or I could barbecue you one. Would you barbecue me a steak? I suspect I probably would, yes. I suspect that would be fucking awesome. OK, I’m a fan. I’m sweating. I have been around A-list celebrities. I’ve been at the Emmys. I’ve been all these around all these rock stars and all these crazy people. And everyone asks me who the one person is that I would fangirl over. And I always say it’s Jordan Peterson. So I’m having a hard time right now. I’m sorry if it’s awkward for you. You should have that professionally evaluated, I would say. Not the sweating, the fangirling, yes. Yeah, aren’t you a professional? Evaluate that quickly. For me, I’m just going to evaluate it as flattering and assume that you’re credible in your evaluations. I hope that you are. It’s based on listening to your own stuff. So yeah, I think it’s pretty good. Do you know what a MILF is? Yes. OK, we don’t have to say it out loud. So then you know what a DILF is. A DILF? Yeah. I think I can guess. OK, you’re pretty smart. So I’m sure you got it. So people say that you’re kind of in that silver fox range. Do you know what a silver fox is? It’s preferable to dead fox or senile fox. Well, it’s more of like the George Clooney, like hot, older man who’s intelligent and awesome. You get put in that range a lot, and I totally get it. Not trying to flirt with Michaela’s dad, because that’s weird. But I’m just. I’ll bring you in on this and sicker on you. Michaela’s my friend. That would be so strange. But how does it feel to be put as like an intellectual, like sexual superhero in that way? Like you get put in like that category. Well, I can’t say that I’ve dwelled on that. Intellectual sex symbol status, Jordan Peterson. Has that ever occurred to you? Not consciously, let’s say. Look, I can tell you one. OK, I’ll tell you. Yeah, tell me. OK, OK. Omega Watches contacted me two years ago, and they asked me to be a spokesperson. And at the same time, they had Daniel, Craig Daniels. It’s Craig Daniels, right? Daniel Craig. Daniel Craig, sorry. Yeah, that’s OK. Opposite day. And I thought that would be cool. That got me. I thought it would be something I’d never imagined. But to be on a billboard for Omega Watches when Daniel Craig is also their spokesperson, yes, that was very flattering. And I was very, very tempted to do it. I didn’t. Well, why didn’t you do it? Well, there was a variety of reasons. I wasn’t sure it was appropriate. I mean, there was a fun element to it. And it was really attractive for that reason. And there was a surreal element to it, because it wasn’t something I expected at all. But I felt that I was ambivalent about it, I suppose. And it’s funny, because I actually own an Omega Watch. Now, I got it as a present. And I have three or four watches, but I wear this one. And I like it. And it’s interesting to me that I wear it, because I didn’t expect to. But I feel like you overthought your way out of that awesome opportunity. Well, a lot of other things were happening at the same time, too, that would have complicated it. So it wasn’t a straightforward decision. But it was something I was very tempted to do. It was very flattering and very unexpected. And so I suppose… What do you want now? You know, it’s very difficult to say, but I would probably come to the same decision. I’m a little bit… I would be a little more tempted to do it now, because I actually have an Omega Watch, and I actually wear it and like it. Whereas before, I wasn’t familiar with the brand. And I’m not averse to… I’m not averse to… Capitalistic enterprises, let’s say. Yeah, that’s the best I have looked. Yeah, well, but I also have to be… I strive to be very careful in what I do. And so that… You know, I was talking to Stephen Fry yesterday, and he’s an extraordinarily admirable person in every regard. And he’s done all sorts of advertisements, so it worked out fine for him. And I don’t have anything against it, per se, from a moral perspective. But in the position that I’m in, as much as I can understand that position, I have to be very careful with what I do. And so if I’m doubtful, I tend to say no. That’s smart. When in doubt, leave it out. That’s what I try and stay with as well, just for a general life rule, if I was writing my own 12 rules. When in doubt, leave it out. However, I firmly believe that we need more intellectual rock stars. We have a-holes up on billboards selling whatever. We need some people to look at, but younger generations can look at and be like, that’s a badass, I wanna be like them. I wanna get that watch like them. They’re intelligent. They have good moral values. They’ve come through hardships. That’s what I think you could exemplify. So maybe think about it again. You know, I don’t work for Omega. I should… You’re sure about that, eh? Yeah, yeah, I don’t work for them. But I’m just saying, we do need some more badass people to look up to that, you know, if you were on the front cover of People Magazine’s Sexiest Man of the Year, and it’s because you’re smart and do intelligent things and share wisdom, I think that’s fucking badass. So, might be a different way to look at things. Just saying. Yeah. I’m listening very carefully. Good. I’m glad I taught you a thing, Jordan. Okay. Did I ask you that one? You know, there’s something about what you said that’s right. Like, I was talking to… Yeah, say that again for all the guys I used to date. Jocko Willink, two weeks ago, and I’m gonna release a podcast with him soon, and it was a really fun conversation. And he is this, you know, monstrous character, unbelievably physically intimidating and strong. And also that psychologically and characterologically. And he… We had a very intense discussion about literacy. And he’s the perfect person to have a credible, intense discussion of literacy. And he really insisted on it. He told me that he got an English degree, and I kind of skipped over it in the conversation. And he said, I’m surprised that you didn’t point out the surprising element of me pursuing an English degree after I had been in the Navy SEALs. And so we went down that particular road. Then he made this incredibly powerful, aggressive case for the value of literacy. And it was extremely useful. And he isn’t the sort of person that you see doing that. And when you see someone like that doing that, it’s really powerful. Exactly. Exactly. So in my perfect world, there would be Jocko’s and Jordan’s. Those are the people that I would love to see on the billboards, instead of just some singer who can hit some notes singing someone else’s song that wrote it. He’s actually the intelligent musician behind it, but they’re not cute enough to promote the single. So they got some singer guy to do it. And now he’s on the cover of the magazines. He’s selling the watches. And this is who society looks up to. I would love- There’s another element of this that’s worth talking about, I think too, is that I’ve been thinking a lot about the idea of casual contempt. Go on. When I watch people fail, one of the ways that they fail is by being casually contemptuous of something. So they don’t know anything about it and they’re not good at it. But instead of noting that, their own inadequacy, and noting that there’s an opportunity there and that the people who are pursuing it actually know something, they get casually contemptuous of it, dismiss it, and then they can’t. And so here’s some places I’ve seen that. So college professors are casually contemptuous of business people. Okay. Or the people who- And there’s jealousy in there and there’s envy, but there’s also this disdain for their domain of expertise, let’s say, and maybe some anti-capitalism mixed in just for good moral measure. But the business people are frequently contemptuous of academics because they’re in their ivory tower and they’re protected and they have a secure job and all they have to do is lecture, you know, two courses a week. And how easy is that? So they’re each casually contemptuous and then they can’t learn from each other. And so that means the academics, for example, aren’t- And then within business, maybe you’ll have the engineers and they’ll be casually contemptuous of the sales and marketing people and they’re casually contemptuous of the engineers. And it’s not helpful at all. And so I’m not contemptuous of sales and marketing. And I’m not contemptuous of advertising because sales and marketing and advertising are all forms of communication. Yes. And you should get good at them. And then you can communicate. And if you have ideas, you need to communicate them. And if you’re no good at sales and marketing, let’s say, then you’re no good at communicating. So what you’re saying is you’re going to do the Omega app. Yeah. Well, it does kind of come back to that, doesn’t it? Myself in comedy, I ended up in the marketing and advertising world because I could convey messages better than brands could because they were coming from it at sales. And I came to it as what are we giving the audience? Entertainment, edutainment, advertisement, make them laugh, make them feel something, connect to their lives, and then they’ll want our products or services. And all these suits couldn’t get that. So the little blonde girl when I was 22 had to go into the Moulson office and explain it to them and say, you know, stop being so inauthentic. Let’s actually give people a dope ass party and bring in their best artists. Okay, so you mix two things there. You said stop being so inauthentic. Yeah. So how do those two things go together? The authenticity and the entertainment, how do you see that operating together? I believe when you invite people over to your house, you want them to have a great time. You want to put on a great event, party, dinner party, whatever. That’s hospitality. Hospitality. Yeah, okay. That’s what advertising is missing and marketing. You should genuinely want to entertain and provide value to your audience with entertainment, edutainment, or just having a good time if you’re throwing a big party or whatever for Moulson, for Nike, whoever it is. Okay, and where’s the authenticity piece in that as far as you’re concerned? Actually caring about people. Actually caring. Yeah, that it actually matters to you. Yeah. Right. Because they’re just a number and they’re just a dollar. You don’t give a shit. But if you actually care about providing something awesome and an awesome experience and building a community, even though it’s buzzwords now, around your people, they’re going to feel that and they’re going to keep coming back to buy your product or they’re going to at least tell someone else to get your product. And I think people feel the same way about you. You provide an experience. You’re a bad ass renegade in these interviews around the world. You stick to your guns. That’s an experience for us. You give us edutainment, not just the facts. I’m entertained when I see you go against someone that I know can’t possibly touch you. It’s really fun to watch. And then- You have any idea why it’s entertaining? Because you pick a team. I’d say for you, it’s entertaining because I pick a team and I picked your team because I saw you as sense versus the growing nonsense. So if I could buy jerseys with Peterson on the back and Musk, I would, but they don’t sell those and I’m not that into sports. So instead I promote your book. I tell my fans to follow you. I love Elon Musk and I promote him. Well, you know, we have a merchandise section and this is why it came about. Yeah, it’s on my YouTube channel and I’ve been indivulant about it too, but I’m not. And what happened was that as my popularity or notoriety or reprehensibility grew- I think they all go together. Same as me. Absolutely they do. As that expanded, people started offering merchandise all over the place, t-shirts and stickers for your computer and posters. And a lot of it was very creative and original and there was a lot of it. And I thought at one point, well, there’s obviously a demand for this. And so then you ask yourself, well, when you’re trying to communicate with people and you note there’s a demand, what’s the appropriate thing to do? And you might say, and this is a question worth asking. Well, that’s not the manner in which you’ve chosen to communicate and that’s not your bailiwick and stay out of it. And don’t cheapen the message and don’t sell out and all of that buzzword. Those are all cliches. Those are like all cliches. They carry a kernel of truth. It’s something to watch for. So we set up a merchandise and which my son runs. And partly that was also an experiment because I’m always curious about how things work. And so we thought, well, let’s do this and see what happens. And we have posters and mugs and tights with lobsters on them. And that’s funny. It’s also funny. There’s an element of foolishness about it. And that’s the place where the ideas meet the popular culture. But nothing bad has come of that. And I’ve left the merchandisers who aren’t me alone. I think if you can take something that I’ve done and you can figure out how to package it and you make a certain amount of money on that and you’re not twisting what I’m doing and you’re not bending it and exploiting it, that’s fine, go right ahead. And I don’t see any problem with that at all. In fact, I think it’s a positive thing. I would, I would. If there was a jersey, like an actual sports jersey, it said Peterson. If there was like an intellectual league that we could almost have our teams and wear those jerseys, I would totally do it. That’d be fun. But at the same time, for years, I didn’t have merch that said Nicole Arbor on it because I think one part I thought it was pompous and one part I was almost insecure about selling stuff with my name. Well, that’s exactly what I’m talking about is that casual. So with you, it wasn’t so much casual contempt. It was maybe lack of confidence. It was like, who wants to put my name on their body? It turns out a lot of people. That’s interesting. And so what do you think about that? You’ve obviously decided to do it. And why did you think that that was either okay or desirable? And how did you settle your moral qualms? Well, I went back to quality and giving them that hospitality experience. If people want to cheer for me and be on my team, my whole thing is go team. That’s my mantra. That’s what my fans are. I don’t have fans. I have a team and I can cheer for you. I don’t have fans either. I have viewers and listeners and watchers and readers. I don’t have fans. Yes, and I don’t want fans. I like walking down the street and running into people who enjoy what I do. And they just want to have a conversation. They don’t always just want to scream. I’ll fan girl for you. And you need to let me have my moment because it’s the only one I’ll do. But in general, I can cheer for you because I’m awesome too. I want everyone who follows me to be successful. I don’t want to be put up on some strange pedestal. I want it to all be friends. I want to be a part of the team that I haven’t met yet. And if my friends want to wear a shirt with one of my slogans on it because it makes them feel like a bad-ass, let’s do it. If it makes them feel awesome, let’s do that. If they want to buy the lipstick that I always wear because that’s them being part of my team, let’s do it. I’ve just reached the point where I’m like, yeah, let’s however you want to cheer for me and be part of this team, I’m going to help you do that. Looking really hard at the whole social media universe. And this is again, a sales and marketing issue in some sense, but really it’s a communication issue. It turns out, and you probably know this already that one of the things that makes video really different than text is that you can cut video into very small sections and it still works. It’s like you can, it’s as if you could, as if you could sell a book by the sentence. And there’s all these forms that have popped up, Instagram and TikTok, that focus on video lengths of a video of a certain length. That’s also a communication mode. Well, on Twitter, of course, was famous for 140 characters. You get these weird limitations that produce all these opportunities. And so we’re actively going through my current interviews and my back catalog, finding one minute pieces, two minute pieces, five minute pieces. Of course, people are doing this all by themselves because I saw at one point, and I think this is still happening, that about 200 videos a day are being made and posted up on YouTube from my video content. That’s awesome. Not my team, but people just doing that. And so that’s also interesting. In the classic hero mythology, which I think classic hero stories are reflections of optimal human behavior, the hero goes out into the unknown or fights a tyrant. Those are the two main themes, goes into the unknown and comes back with something of value like the hobbit going off to fight the dragon and coming back with the gold. But that’s only half of the hero story. The other half is the distribution of what’s being found to the community. So it’s productivity and generosity. That’s one way of thinking about it. Or it’s exploration and finding the treasure, but then sharing it. And hopefully sharing it so that it grows. And the communication part is just as important as the exploration and discovery part. And if you have casual contempt for the communication forms, then you can’t communicate. And it’s a really bad time to have that casual contempt because all these new communication forms are emerging at a breathtaking pace. Is it fair to say he maybe had some of that casual contempt for social media at the beginning, but now you guys are more getting into it? No, I don’t think so. I think there’s a reason for that. I have a product before I became well known. I produced this software to help people write about their lives, to write about their past and their present and their future. It’s the self-authoring program. And I believed when I first made my first products that if you made a good product, it would sell itself. So I figured the product problem was 95% of the problem. But after trying to sell various things, especially the corporations for like 10 years with really no success, and I mean, zero, I realized that product is like five to 15% of the problem and sales and marketing, which is communication is 85%. And I lost any contempt I had for sales and marketing right then, because I realized it was unbelievably difficult and absolutely necessary. And when you’re creating a product, you should actually be talking to your market continually during the process of product generation to make sure that you’re producing something that people want. So by the time- I asked my audience. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I asked my audience as we go, like, what designs do you want? What slogans do you want? What would you like this to be? I asked them as we go so that by the time I get there, I’m delivering something they already wanted. There’s no reason to- Right, right. Well, yes. I have to test it as I go, you know? Exactly. Well, that stops you from producing something that really works but has no ecological, it has no ecosystem to live in. Yes. And that’s deadly. And so I learned all these things, luckily, and it was very difficult to learn them. It really took me 10 years of failing to learn these things. By the time all this came along, especially after I had experimented with YouTube, because when I started putting my videos up on YouTube, you know, it was a place for cat videos, essentially. And so it was easy to, you know, it was amateurish and it was just getting going. And it was before it was bought by Google and no one knew what to make of it. And most of it was cat videos. Love it when you have cat videos. Yeah, well, you know, everyone likes a good cat video and they’re warm and touching and funny and all of that. So fine. But I started to experiment with YouTube and then I started to understand what it was. And I still haven’t really understood what it is because it’s a revolutionary technology, video on demand. Everyone’s now a TV producer if they want to be. And there’s no barrier to publication and there’s no administration, there’s no bureaucracy, there’s infinite bandwidth, there’s the possibility of dialogues with your audience. Like I saw this, one thing I had was released on, I think it was TikTok, but I might be wrong. I think you can do these things called duets on TikTok. Yes. Yes, so someone will post something. We should do a duet on TikTok. I’m just saying, but go ahead. Well, I just found out about them, but they’re part of a conversation with the audience. So Michaela and I were talking about this finding that for every 15 points, a woman’s IQ goes up over 100, she has 35% less chance of being married. And the reverse is true for men. I was gonna talk to you about this because Michaela and I have discussed this as well. And I tried to push back on her. I’m like, no, because my IQ is doing quite well. I’ll say it that way. And the dating stuff, I’ve found it hard because I have dated people who are very intellectual and maybe in the looks area, they’re not what someone would expect me to be with. And they eventually get upset with the way I look or that people say, you guys don’t match together. I don’t get it, you must have money or something. But they were an intellectual match for me. And then when I kind of dumbed down to date someone else, I ended up getting bored really easily. So yeah, do I have any hope, Jordan? Can you introduce me to someone? Well, there’s no one I can think of that I can introduce you to, but I’ve worked with women who have expressed exactly the same issues that you’ve just expressed. And so the duet issue, well, let’s get back to that issue, we will. But the duet issue was interesting because Mikael and I were discussing it. It was only about a 30 second clip or a minute on TikTok, I believe. And then there were all these duets of women watching this and responding. And I thought, well, that’s so cool. You think, well, that’s trivial, but it’s not. It’s not trivial because all of a sudden video has become something that enables a dialogue. And for my entire life, video was a one-way street, right? It was the television station out to the consumer. But now it’s a dialogue. And so these technological revolutions are masked by their apparent triviality, but they’re not trivial. They’re fundamentally revolutionary. And so we’re attending to all these social media forums and trying to master them because there are very sophisticated modes of communication. And if you have casual contempt, because we thought through some of the things that you’re talking about. You’re talking about intellectual sports who are rock star, all of that. Well, how about ideas that are advertisements? Yes, I see that. Maybe I can teach someone something in 30 seconds. Yeah. So fine. So fine, then there’s the 30 second niche on TikTok because is anyone making one minute idea videos? And the answer to that is essentially no. They’re creative, they’re dance. And maybe there are many people that I don’t know. I don’t wanna see you twerk, but no offense. But I would like you to do something. Right, well, yes. Yeah. I don’t wanna see that either, definitely. I don’t know who does. Well, maybe there’s a niche, maybe they’re on TikTok. There’s undoubtedly a group out there who would like that too much because out there is a group that likes anything too much. Let’s not service them. That’s why I never have bare feet in any of my photo shoots or I try not to because too many people have asked me for photos over the years that I think is a little strange. I don’t wanna give that to them. That sounds wise to me. That might be something you don’t wanna cater to. Thank you. Okay, I would love to fly through a couple of these quick questions so I have it to clip together and then circle back to the question about the dating stuff. Sure. You good? All right, so this is a fun one for me. I’ve noticed that angry, unmarried, ugly women don’t like you and write cruel articles or fiction about you. There’s not really a question. I just wanted to say it out loud for you. Oh God. Okay. Okay, that’s all. Okay, next one. I think that shocked me so badly that you might have to repeat it just so that I’m sure that I got it. Anyways. Okay, no problem. I will say it again. I’ve noticed that angry, unmarried, ugly women don’t like you and write cruel articles or fiction. I just wanted you to know that. I noticed it. That’s not even a question. But I would like you to know that if you want me to fight someone for you, I’ll do it. I’m like, I’m pretty good. That also might be an audience that you don’t want to cater to. Fighting on behalf of Jordan Peterson. I was thinking more about the fight video itself. Oh yeah, I don’t want to do that. But I just wanted you to know that I noticed what kind of people consistently write hateful articles about you. I wouldn’t want to be their friend anyway. So don’t worry. Okay, next question. What’s it like having a bad ass daughter? Well, it’s been a lifesaver. Literally. Yes. That’s awesome. Cool. Literally. Yeah, Michaela’s amazing. Yeah, well, go Michaela. I mean, it worries me because she’s like you in many ways. She’s extroverted and enthusiastic and open. All of those things. And people, it’s easy to make, because you’re doing many things, you’re very curious and maybe somewhat disagreeable. And you need that to be a comedian often. Because you have to say things that aren’t polite to be a comedian. You have to do that. It’s easy to make mistakes. And so I worry about her making mistakes as she’s exploring. But you have to make mistakes. And I try to listen to her and talk with her to feel out the landscape. But she seems to be powering along through it. And so hooray for that. Thanks. Do you ever get nervous with it? I feel like with my size, sometimes he’s like, ah! I mean, it’s just like, what are you gonna say? Are you sure? Wouldn’t you just wanna be an entertainment news host? That’d be so much easier. But there’s no way. Well, we’re nervous all the time. Like in a constant state of terror because of the scale of the communication. And also the vitriolic nature of some of it. Every time there’s a hit piece of some sort. And Michaela’s being featured in a couple of those now. Again, by a woman that’s, you know. I looked up, I do it instantly. When I see someone write something negative about people that I think are awesome, I Google right away who the reporter is. I wanna see what they post. I wanna see their photo. I wanna see what their bio is. And nine times out of 10, it is exactly what I want. Or exactly what I assumed. And one time it’s an empty bubble and there’s nothing in it. And it’s a fake person writing it. So they’re either a coward or they’re an asshole. And I don’t respect their opinions anyway. So I hope that you guys can take that into consideration when you read this stuff about you. This is something else that’s happened recently that sort of flipped the power balance with regards to new media. Because before, when I was younger, it was all top down. But now you can do exactly what you just said. So if a journalist writes an article, it’s a journalist. And people absolutely do that. And the younger they are, the more likely they are to do that. Because they’re at a much more equal place with regards to their access to communication technology. And so it’s increasingly the case that if, it’s harder and harder to do things top down. It’s harder and harder. And that’s all to the good, I think. I think it’s great. I think it’s fantastic. There’s a level of accountability to it that we might not have had before the internet to search these reporters. So I like it. Again, I’ll fight for you guys, don’t worry. Okay, here’s a very, this is like a very, very important question. You mentioned Harry Potter in the new book. I, as a Potter head, got very, very excited. I also have a Marauder’s map on my wall because I love it. And I also solemnly swear I’m up to no good. If you were a character in Harry Potter, who would you be? This is so important. Potter heads are gonna love this. Well, I had a certain affinity for Snape. I can totally see that. I can totally see that. Okay, you’d Snape it up? Well, he’s an interesting character. And I think the actor who played him did an absolutely brilliant job. Yeah, he’s fantastic. That sort of intense darkness. But I mean, he harnessed that for good. And my experience with men in particular is that the best men I ever knew were those who could have been the worst, but decided not to be. Yes. That’s unerringly been the case. And they’re very respectable. But you respect people like that instantly. As soon as you meet them, you think, don’t cross him. You know that. But. They use their powers for good. Right, that’s exactly it. I love that. That’s a good answer. Okay, who do you think is the most important character in Harry Potter? I think we might disagree on this. So that’s why I’m setting this question up. The most important. Yeah. I love that you’re stumped on this. Well, the obvious answer is Harry, but I’m trying to think of an answer that’s useful and not obvious. It’s Hermione, because Harry was dead in the first film. Okay, so why Hermione? In every film, it’s Hermione saving Harry’s ass. He would have been dead in the first film if it weren’t for her. There wouldn’t even have been a series. So all the way along, she helps him and saves him, guides him, teaches him things. Well, it’s funny, and I feel bad that you said that, because that was what I was going to say. And now that I said. Oh, I beat you to it. Yeah, that’s right. Exactly. That’s right. You got to the punchline before me. I did. Well, she’s a great role model. I mean, I know Rowling didn’t write Harry Potter characters so that they were role models, because that would be dull. And those books aren’t dull. And she captured the imagination of an entire generation. I’ve got a lot of the criticism that I’ve received from intellectual types, let’s say, have focused on my, what would you say, stoned undergraduate interpretation of Harry Potter. And I think that’s so funny, because it’s another example of this casual contempt. Because I look at what J.K. Rowling did, and I think, okay, look, this woman produced seven books, correct, is it seven? I believe it’s seven. Yeah, I think it’s seven. And they’re all this thick. They’re all two and a half inches thick, like 500 pages long. And every kid read them or wanted to read them or had them read to them. And most parents too, and she could fill a stadium and read. And so she promoted literacy like no one else. She dominated the popular culture for 10 years. She produced a movie enterprise that produced billions of dollars worth of value. And the movies were a very high quality and entranced a whole other audience. And it’s absolutely, and she was a single parent, if I remember correctly, who was unemployed. It’s like, it’s a Cinderella story, and a real Cinderella story, and it’s a magical story, and it had this immense cultural impact. And people think that the people who look at my analysis of that and criticize it, not for its content, but for me merely doing it, are so blind to the importance of that, that they don’t notice that they’re missing a mystery. It’s like, why did this happen? Why did what she do work so well? And it’s because her mythological imagination is perfect. There’s something to be said for fun. And being able to cheer for someone again, we got to cheer on multiple levels within those books, which is what people love to do. We got to pick what house would you be in, Jordan? Do you know what house you would be? Well, it’d have to be Slytherin, wouldn’t it? I think you’d be a Slytherin. I have a feeling that we would still be friends. I think what would happen is that I’d get the sorting hat put on me, and that’s what it would suggest, and I’d refuse it. Perhaps. To go where? To go where? To Slytherin. Okay, you’d go to Slytherin. I’ve done the tests. I’m half Slytherin, half Gryffindor, so I think I’d have to talk to the hat as well. Because I can go the dark side. I’m very cunning in that way, but I prefer to be the happy hero. So we get to cheer for the house we’re in, we get to cheer for Harry, we get to cheer for good versus evil. There’s so much that we get to cheer for with the little kids, when the younger grades start coming up, we get to cheer for them when they fight back against the bad guys. There’s so much to cheer for that it just sets you on fire. It makes all the underdogs rise. And for intellectuals to not be able to see that so quickly, to me, goes back to intellectuals overthinking, which I know is what intellectuals do. But sometimes- No, it’s the contempt. It’s the refusal to even think about it. You should think about it, because it like clearly, because something happened and she put her finger on something. Instead of thinking about it, maybe they should feel about it. Well, maybe. Yeah, there’s my thoughts. Oh, Harry Potter people are gonna love that clip. Okay, almost done, sir. I got your daughter in there. Oh, here comes some real question. Okay, we have that intellectual one. Do you think Canada’s in trouble? I’m also from Canada. I’m from Hamilton originally and then Toronto for most of my life. Do you think Canada’s in political trouble right now? No, not really. Things were way more unstable when the two separatist uprisings, let’s say, occurred. I mean, the country could have easily been torn apart both times. It was very, very, very close. And it was intense. I don’t think we’re in any more trouble than the West is in trouble. Crisis and opportunity fundamentally. And trouble compared to what? Compared to other countries in the world? No. No. Compared to the historical reality? No. No. So all things considered, things are pretty good. Okay, I like that answer. It makes me happy and I feel like it’s correct. Awesome. Okay, now we’re gonna go into something else. I have a theory, I’m gonna read this one because I had to write it down. I have a theory that gender dysmorphia is similar to body dysmorphia and that it only exists because we have something to compare ourselves to and that young kids wouldn’t naturally be comparing themselves to anybody else unless someone called them to do it. And that by transitioning every little boy who wears a dress into a woman, we’re actually killing off what might be the future gay population. Did that make sense to you? That’s a bunch of questions. Yeah, well there was multiple things in there. I can unpack that. Well, the first thing. Gender dysmorphia with body dysmorphia. Do you feel it might be similar? That’s, I would say that’s the, that would have been the psychiatric consensus before the recent rise in political correctness. Cool, I thought I just came up with it. So I like hearing that professionals thought it. Okay, and then do you believe that if kids never heard of it, they wouldn’t be doing it? Oh, there’s all sorts of examples of psychiatric contagions. So if you read, there’s a book called Discovery of the Unconscious, which is a great book. It’s a great book. And anybody who’s interested in psychoanalytic thought, it’s also an extremely interesting book. He documents the rise and the contagious rise and then fall of multiple personality disorder over about 300 years. It cycles. And so what happens is there’s a case report. It gets a tremendous amount of attention. Then there’s all sorts of case reports. It just emerges and distributes itself everywhere. And there’s hundreds of case reports. And then cynicism about it or criticism of it and skepticism starts to set in. And then the cases disappear and then the idea vanishes and then it reemerges and that happens over and over. There are personality types, histrionic is the technical term, who seem particularly susceptible to psychiatric contagion. Now, I don’t know if that’s the case with what’s happening right now, but another example of that is that generally speaking, and I hope I’m still correct in this, if you put a suicide hotline in a town and you start to publicize suicide, the rates go up, not down. The same thing happened with cutting, which is extremely widespread. Yeah, that’s a contagion. Yeah, it happened with eating disorders. So imagine that people have intense emotional troubles of a non-differentiated sort. That’s common no matter what the historical time and place is, let’s say. The way that manifests itself is going to be shaped by the current culture and the cultural narrative from culture to culture and within cultures itself. And so there’s always this interplay with psychiatric diagnostic categories between the biology and the biological, let’s say pathology that might be associated with an illness and the way that’s expressed. The culture shifts in terms of that. And there’s no doubt that psychiatric ideas can be contagious. And I do believe that that’s one of the dangers in disturbing settled ideas of gender. I smile when I am already agreeing with you and these are thoughts that I have had, but you’re expressing them better than I knew how. So I’m smiling like a crazy at you right now. It’s clearly the case that some people suffer unduly from a cut and dried gender binary. Because there are people, many people, who don’t fit neatly into those categories. And it is partly because there’s a biological sex and there are personality traits, let’s say, that are associated with gender, but not tightly linked to it. So on average, women are more agreeable, but some women are more disagreeable than some men. On average, women are more enthusiastic, but some men are more enthusiastic than some women. And so you can have a man who’s enthusiastic and agreeable. So he’s got some feminine traits. And the binary distinction is harder on people who is hard on some people. Fine, fair enough, true enough. The question is, what happens when you blur the binary? And my suspicion is that you confuse and hurt far more people by destabilizing that than you help. I agree. That’s been my observation. I like to stand back, look at what’s happening before I form an opinion as much as I possibly can without getting emotional with the internet. And that’s what I’ve seen happening. So I’d like to go to the next part of that question was, I grew up in dancing and cheerleading. And lots of little boys would love to put on the dresses and they would run around with the fairy wings. 100% of those boys have grown up to be gay. And probably not 100% of the ones I saw in the dancing, the ones that I called it, that they were gay. And my mom would be like, don’t say that about them. Well, they’re all gay now. And openly gay, happily married, whatever. Now, my thought is that if we’re every little boy who’s putting on a dress and dancing around and kind of having those same mannerisms, we’re now encouraging them to transition to a woman. Is that killing off our future gay population for a lack of better words to hear? That discussion is being had in the LGBT community. Hmm. Definitely. And they come up with anything? The discussion continues. It’s not an easy discussion to have because just having it makes you hated no matter which side you come down on. And so it’s very difficult to have a discussion when no matter what you conclude, you’re going to be hated. Yeah, that seems to happen to both of us a lot. I think in some sense that that conclusion is virtually inescapable if the pre-politically correct data on children with gender dysphoria is true. Because the pre-politically correct data, there was a scientist in Toronto who was pilloried for supporting this data, but it was the psychiatric state of the art at the time. I don’t think it’s been superseded by any new knowledge that’s more valid. It was 85%, I believe, of children with gender dysphoria accept the biological reality of their body by the time they’re 18. And so if you accept the Hippocratic oath, which is in some sense first due no harm, sorry, that might not be the Hippocratic oath. I can’t remember exactly at the moment, but it’s a medical, it’s one of the hallmarks by which medical intervention might be justified. First, do no harm. The appropriate advice for a parent who has a child with gender dysphoria is wait. Don’t do anything radical when the cost of doing something radical is so high, wait. Now the pro-transition opposition to that idea would say, well, it’s so damaging if you wait that you’re actually hurting the child more than you would if you went ahead with the radical transition. But I don’t think- Do they have the data to back that up? What’s that? I don’t believe they have the data to back that up yet to say that it’s gonna be so wildly harmful because we haven’t had the test groups to even conclude that is going to happen in the future because this is still a newer issue-ish. Does that make sense to you? That’s how I stand back and look at it is we don’t have the data yet, guys. So we shouldn’t be making big giant decisions when we just don’t have the data yet. And this is a lot of kids. There’s a lot of kids that are transitioning now. So it’s an interesting- Yes, well, and it’s not a trivial matter, the transition. Now, you can argue that it’s not a trivial matter to not transition if that’s your destiny and not to do it early. But I don’t think, well, the data suggested that 85% of children with gender dysphoria accepted their biological reality by the time they were 18. So, but a substantial proportion of them did end, sorry, and this is the answer to your question, a substantial proportion of them did end up gay. And so, yes, if you’re transitioning, the more transitioning children medically, if all of the rest of that is true, then those are children who would have been gay who have now transitioned. Yes, that is, if those other propositions are true, that is what’s happening. We’re in trouble already. I can feel it, for having this discussion. That happens, it just keeps happening. I’m often in trouble for having discussions like this too, but do you think you and I maybe are missing something that we should have, where we should care that people are upset with us for having these conversations? Well, I do care. And it’s very difficult for me generally to have these conversations because I do understand the anguish, let’s say, that these issues produce. And I understand why people are motivated to take the positions they take, but there’s catastrophe on both sides. And so I weigh the catastrophes and try to pick the route that’s less catastrophic. I don’t think that the current theories of identity that are part and parcel of the culture wars are adequate theories of identity. I think they will do the people that adopt them harm. Now they think, well, I’m that person and I don’t think it’s harming me and who are you to say? And the answer is, well, I’m a clinical psychologist and I’ve looked at the literature and I’ve watched this for a long time and that’s my professional judgment. And it’s like, I could be wrong, and your argument is, well, you have your experience and fair enough, it’s your life, but I don’t see that it’s a good move. Well, I certainly don’t believe that the theory of identity is coherent or adequate. It’s neither, it’s incoherent and inadequate and your identity isn’t merely what you feel about your sexuality say, or even your biological identity. It’s silly, it feels silly. I feel like we’ve gotten to the point where a lot of the arguments are just silly and the same thing, I feel for the people who these subjects affect and they affect their families deeply and everyone’s, I get that these are big subjects, but I feel like if we can’t have honest conversations where ideas are explored without chopping down everybody who might have an idea, we’re gonna get stuck and then there’s no innovation anymore. We have to be able to have these ideas and you’ve been so brave with your ideas. I just wanna say thank you for that, first of all. Yeah, and then my last question is I’m gonna bring it back to, okay, this intelligent woman dating thing, help. Because I’ve gone through the different things. Like I said, I’ve dated guys who maybe aren’t as intellectual as myself and I get bored. They’re super cute and they’re hot and they may be athletes and they do really well with what they do, but I’m bored. And then I’ve gone the other way and I’ve noticed that they tend to get really insecure about dating someone who might be physically more attractive than them or people thinking that that’s what that is. So I’m not sure where to sit. If people are like, what’s your ideal man? I’m like, I have no idea because I’m smart. I think that the data suggesting that women mate across and up hierarchies is true and that men mate across and down. That looks to me to be true. It looks like it’s true cross-culturally, although it varies to some degree. And people who are unfamiliar with that idea or doubt it, you could read Buss, the psychologist, B-U-S-S. And he’s a credible authority in my estimation. So the problem then comes is that imagine there’s multiple dimensions along which you might evaluate someone’s attractiveness. There’s personality, there’s intelligence, there’s athletic prowess, there’s socioeconomic status, there’s productive capacity, there’s creativity. There’s lots of dimensions. So then imagine that you’re above average on three or four dimensions. Well, that makes it easier for men because they’re mate across and down those hierarchies, but it makes it harder and harder for women because with each dimension they’re above average on, if their fundamental desire is to find someone who’s of equal or higher status, they shrink their data. That’s less people, I know. Yeah, well, I think that’s exactly right. Well, I also think, and I’ve seen this when I’ve counseled women who were intelligent, creative, and attractive, and young, and that’s four killer attributes, men were often so intimidated that they never got asked out. I’ve noticed that happens a lot too. A lot of my gorgeous, amazing, talented female friends who are just, they just kick ass at so many things. Guys won’t even ask them out. They go for- It’s partly because the closer to your hypothetical ideal, someone you’re attracted to is the more pain you suffer when you’re rejected. So that’s why that happens. And so men are a lot more afraid of women than women think, especially women that they’re attracted to. Well, it’s a total rejection, right? It’s a really comprehensive rejection. You know, it’s, you know, the comical end of it is, well, you’re okay for a friend, but I wouldn’t want your genetic material to propagate itself to the next generation. That was the nerdiest thing you’ve ever said. I love it. Okay, I just imagined you courting Mrs. Peterson. Okay, nevermind. No, no, fine, fine. But so, well, so it’s an intractable problem to some degree. And, you know, I think that part of the reason that human beings are the way they are, it’s part of the reason is because female human beings are choosy sexual selectors, unlike chimpanzee females, for example. And so we, a fair bit of our evolutionary development across time is a consequence of the high standards that women place on eligible men, but it’s harsh. And it also, it’s hard on women too, because while they shrink their dating pool, for example. Yeah. Now what’s the solution to that? Yeah, what’s the solution to that? Come on, my fan base is predominantly female. Most are college or university grads. Just saying, they tend to be hot and smart and awesome and creative and be in multiple dimensions. And I get the same questions over and over because they have the same problem. One of the things I would say to women who aren’t being asked out, let’s say, well, do the asking, flip it. Like you have to take it into your own hands. Like if you’re not being asked, figure out what you want. This is something that women, all, everyone should do, but let’s talk to young women. It’s like, okay, well, first of all, figure out what you want, what you actually want. And you should talk to someone, your friends or someone you trust. And spend an hour figuring out what you want and try not to lie to yourself. Do you want kids? And when you’re 19, it’s fashionable to say no, but that’s likely a lie. Now it might be true when you’re 19, but the probability that it’s gonna be true when you’re 29 is almost zero. And no one will tell young women that. It’s like, I don’t care what you think now that you’re 19, you don’t understand as you mature, the desire to have a baby will become unbelievably intense. And you need to know that. And if you decide not to have children, that’s your decision, but you should be informed that this is what’s coming. And in all likelihood, you want children more than you’re willing to admit, even at 19. So, well, all right. So, I thought this idea that… Well, motherhood isn’t as high status and occupation as it should be. That’s a cultural failing, but we’re also… You just got so many moms following you. You just got so many more fans. I saw this. You know, when my wife had little kids, it was often the case that she wasn’t well treated in restaurants and so forth, especially if I wasn’t there. So, and that wasn’t good. I thought that was a sign of real cultural sickness that a mother with a young child is treated badly. That’s very bad idea. That’s part of this casual contempt. So anyways, when you’re 18 or 17 or 19 or 22, it’s like, what do you want exactly? What do you want? And that’s… I wrote about that in chapter three of this new book, Beyond Order. Don’t hide things in the fog. You have to let yourself know what you want. Well, so you make a list of what you want. And what is that? Well, you want someone who’s productive and generous and honest. That’s a real good start. You want someone that you’re physically attracted to. Yes. You want someone whose education and intelligence roughly match or exceed your own. I should stop reading. Daddy Peterson’s dating rules. Can’t keep going. Well, and then if you find someone like that, and then that’s who you want. Then that’s who you want. And you should know that. And you should notice that. Because then at least you’re looking in the right place. Like there’s some… Maybe you could also put into one of your podcasts or things, because I know a lot of young men follow you, to ask the girls out. I do say that. Okay, I don’t look into all of your stuff all the time. Give them a little extra bump. I tell them all the time. So I get out there and ask. And in my clinical practice too, it’s like you’re not gonna find someone unless you ask. And for all their… There’s a lot of criticism aimed at the… The men’s movements that teach men how to be a player, how to attract women, how to… There’s a lot of negative press aimed at those. And I can understand why, because there’s kind of a psychopathic element to it. But one of the things those movements do do is to really encourage young men to overcome their fear of approaching women and even asking them for their phone number or for a date or for a conversation or for a coffee. And put a profile up on a dating profile, dress up nicely, get a professional photograph taken, put your best foot forward, and have enough courage to approach some women and maybe get over your fear. And it’s so… But I would say to young women, if you find someone who you think fits your criteria and you’re not being asked out, ask them. Fine, I’ll do it and I will report back. What’s the alternative? To wait and wither on the vine? That doesn’t seem very useful. I don’t wanna do that, no. That sounds horrible. I didn’t wanna say horror, but then I did, dang it. Okay, no, I don’t wanna do that. I love that, thank you so much. I have a question for you. And this is a stupid question perhaps, but… No, go. I’ve been very curious about apps like Tinder. And I talked to Abigail Schreier about this the other day, because there’s some evidence that young people are having much less sex than they were 20 years ago. And so I’ve wondered with apps like Tinder, if what’s happening is that a small number of men are getting a tremendous amount of sexual attention from women and a huge number of men are getting none at all. And the guys that are attractive say on Tinder, then have their selection. They have women who’ve already said yes, because that’s the only people you communicate with on Tinder if I understand it correctly. And so they have all these women at their disposal, essentially, and then almost no incentive unless they’re mature to have a committed relationship. And so that puts the women in a terrible bind too, because the men that they find attractive are uncatchable in some sense, because the competition level is too high. And I have no idea if that’s true, if that’s actually something that is happening. I feel like it’s partially true. I feel like there’s that level to it, exactly what you just said. But then there’s also a psychological element that I think we aren’t discussing, which is that men aren’t necessarily attracted to prey that walks up to them and lays down dead. The hunting is gone. So I feel like a lot of times men can swipe and know, I can hook up with this girl, this girl, this girl tonight. Well, maybe that’s another conundrum. It’s like, so, and I’m too old to be involved in any of this, so I don’t understand it anymore, but if Tinder, for example, facilitates hookups, what happens if you go on a Tinder date and you’re female and you say no? Like, are you out of the pool then? Are you no longer, so are you pushed constantly for instant sexual favors, let’s say? Tinder is hookup central. That’s what you’re going on Tinder for. Hinge is more looking for a relationship, maybe more. Okay, so they’re sorting themselves out, the apps. Sorting, but there is, there’s levels to it for sure, where there are certain apps that, yeah, if you’re not gonna hook up with them, you don’t meet up with them. That’s what that’s for. This is our instant sex app. And then where I see, I just can’t see that being, I don’t think that’s in anybody’s good interest. But I particularly think it’s not in the good interest of young women. I also don’t think it’s in the good interest of young men because I think it teaches them to be psychopathic predators, fundamentally. No, I mean that, I mean that, I mean that. I don’t see any way out of this because if you’re, if you repeatedly practice taking sexual intimacy out of the broader context, that’s what you’re practicing. Well, how is that not, it’s shallow, it’s shallow by definition because it’s only the pursuit of hedonistic pleasure decontextualized. You don’t know the person, you don’t know their story, you’re not involved in an ongoing adventure, you’re not contributing to one another’s lives, you’re not dependent on each other. There’s no relationship there. So. It’s just a quick hit, yep. It’s a quick content, contextless hit. So then what is it? So then is it, if you practice interacting with women, but also with men, if you’re a woman, as if they’re a source of instant context-free gratification, how are you not training yourself to treat human beings as if they’re nothing but instant sources of context-free gratification? You are, which is the same as the porn addiction, which is why I also feel like men are having less sex is because they can just go onto any porn site at any time of day, or even Instagram and see all these porn stars and naked women, get what they wanted out of an interaction with a woman, do it themselves, and then they have no reason to go on a date. They already got off, they don’t care. And this is what I feel like myself and so many women I talk to have been sorting through is a lot of these guys are already getting what they think they need. So when I might date a guy, I’ll look at his Instagram. If he follows tons of porn stars, I don’t even bother. That’s a nice- That’s wise, I would say. Thank you. They of course go, that’s insecure. Why can’t I look at all these girls? Are you insecure? I’m like, no. No, it’s so amazing to me that anyone would even think that that wasn’t a valid thing to do. I can’t believe you’d ever get criticized for that. That’s, you know, I was talking to, I talked to Theodore Dale Rimpel. That’s not his real name. It’s Anthony Stevens, a psychiatrist, you know, and he was, he worked with, he saw 15,000 people who had tried to commit suicide. Yes, Wu is right. And these were people who were at the bottom of the economic hierarchy, devastated lives. And these, the women were often out with like psychopathic brutes. They were getting beaten all the time. And there were markers for that, shaved heads, scars everywhere, tattoos on their fists, love and hate, that sort of thing. Like obvious markers, you know. Oh yeah, I should see those as obvious markers. They became so fashionable. I just thought it was fashion, but keep going. Well, and that sort of thing also does happen. But his point was there were these obvious markers, but they weren’t being paid attention to. It’s well, what you just described, well, that’s an obvious marker to me. It’s so obvious that I can’t believe that you would be criticized for, and to say that that’s a mark of insecurity, you know. And I would also say it’s, look, here’s one way of thinking. I’ve thought about this. It’s like, what’s the proper domain for sexual morality? What are the right rules? Don’t do anything with anyone that you couldn’t talk to them about. If you feel uncomfortable talking about what you’re doing, you don’t have a level of psychological intimacy that should allow for that level of physical intimacy. Obviously. Jordan, that’s good. Also, it’s a rule of thumb. I would also say that generally, if you’re female and young and attractive, it’s in your best interest, and in the best interest of the person that you’re dating, to say no for as long as you possibly can. If for no other reason than it’s without that, well, where’s the game? There’s no game. And you talked about the chase, you know. And we have no idea how much deprivation proper romance requires, but the answer is definitely not zero, because look, why otherwise? You meet up with Tinder, let’s say, you go to a special room, you both watch pornography, you each have an orgasm, that’s your date. Well, why not do that? If that’s what it’s about, that’s simple, there’s no mess. Well, there’s some, but. Only if it was fun, yeah. But obviously nobody thinks about that as ideal, and that would be the extreme case of contextless sexual gratification, but that’s really, it’s really wrong. It’s wrong, it just doesn’t serve anyone, it’s terrible. And that’s the case with this endless stream of available pornography, it’s a catastrophe. That’s what I think, I feel like we’ve rewired, especially young men, women as well, but especially young men, or just men in general, that they’re not even looking at women as people most of the time, because even scrolling through Instagram, you’re seeing naked people constantly. It didn’t used to be like that 10 years ago. To see a woman naked was Playboy, it was almost still special and not. I can remember the first time that I saw a naked woman on, in a video, in a film, was actually, if I remember correctly, it was in the Life of Brian, the Monty Python movie, because there’s a scene where one of the girlfriends of one of the revolutionary types opens the curtains and she’s naked, and that’s the first time I saw, I think I’d seen Playboy pictures before that, but it just blew me away. I can remember, and I think I was about 13 or so, and it was a revelation of sorts, obviously. And now that’s nothing, that’s nothing, it’s nothing, that’s there in droves. Any boy can see more sexual imagery than anyone ever saw in their whole life 30 years ago. And I know that it’s not directly necessarily linked, but do you feel like that could be, this is my observation, is a rise of narcissism. Do you think any of this could be linked to the rise of narcissism and self-involvement, or is that still just linked to early childhood stuff? I don’t know, I don’t know. I mean, to the degree that sexual gratification through pornography makes it possible to avoid the complexities of a relationship, the advantages of a relationship in modulating sort of immature narcissistic selfishness disappear. You know, and I do think it’s absolutely appropriate for young women to insist that they be treated the way they would like to be treated. You should insist upon that, well, your partner should as well insist upon that treatment for him. So you have to sit down and think about, well, how would you like to be treated if you could have what you wanted, actually have it? It just feels like we’re back at chapter three, yes. Well, that yes, and it’s for precisely those reasons that I wrote it, but. I love that. It’s a funny thing to, I do believe though that that’s the case, that no is the right answer most of the time. It’s disciplined, that’s part of it. It’s provocative, that’s part of it. It’s guarding a secret. It’s defending a treasure. It’s adding some of the game. And it’s a demand that certain preconditions have to be met. And it’s the insistence that you be regarded as a complete person. And now, you know, it’s gonna be tempting to young women too to separate their sexuality and say, well, I can go for instantaneous gratification just like a man, but I do believe that men and women both pay a tremendous price for instantaneous sexual gratification. I’m absolutely convinced of that. But I do believe that women pay a higher price. And the reason for that is that sex is more dangerous for women. And so, it’s capacity to produce catastrophe is heightened in women. And how could it be otherwise? Because, mm-hmm. That was like a bar, that was like rapping, what you just said, it’s a catastrophe. I liked it, I’m gonna rewind this and listen to that later. I personally, like I was all about, yeah, I can act just like the guys and I can hook up with all these people. Like when I was much younger, I was like, I can be just like them because that’s equal power, that’s equality. And then I looked at all these female role models that I had, these pop stars, these Madonnas, these whatever, none of them are doing okay now. You know, like kind of the generation or two generations above me that were promoting super promiscuity, none of them have a life that I want now. Well, look, I’m old now, I’m 60 and my wife is 60. Okay, so we’re grandparents. And I can tell you what makes our lives worthwhile. Go on. Well, I’m really attracted to my wife. Get it, girl. Well, and we’ve been, sorry. Don’t be sorry. We’ve been isolated from each other for a long time because we’re both so sick. It’s been two years really. And the physical intimacy element of our marriage is extremely important. We’re very careful about that and value it extremely highly and pay a tremendous amount of attention. It’s really important that the sexual element, the romantic element, those two things, when they’re properly handled, they’re indistinguishable. And if you think that sex is okay without romance, you don’t know anything about romance because sex is so much better with romance that it’s not even the same thing. So that’s all important. But as you get older, what’s important is that, well, you have a family, you have your children, you have your grandchildren, you have a continuity of narrative, you have a long-term relationship that you’ve built. Yeah. That’s what’s important. And when you’re doing things impulsively, when you’re young, you’re not paying attention to the old you. You have to have the old you in mind. You’re gonna be old and you have to be building towards that or you’re going to be old and things are gonna be a catastrophe. So don’t, this idea that you said, well, I can be just like those men. It’s like, well, you don’t even, that isn’t even the men you want. Yes. Why would you imitate the men that you don’t want? Yes. Yes, Jordan, you just, I didn’t even need for this conversation to go this way. I think what we’ve talked about in this topic is so important. We’re gonna rock some women. We’re gonna rock some people back to reality. That’s exactly what I did. I was impersonating men that I didn’t even want. They were the douchebags. They were the vagabonds, the whatever we wanna call them, the dickheads. Oh, look, look, there is, okay. So there’s something else we should sort out. Okay. There is an undeniable romantic attraction that men and women have to each other for rule breakers. Yes. Okay, so you see bad-ass women who are very highly sexualized in the movie screen all the time. And so women do have some preference for men who are wilder and who are capable of breaking rules. And that should be noticed and not ignored. But that doesn’t mean that… They can break rules in other ways. See, being a bad boy. They should be able to break them. Yes, but you can break a rule by breaking a record by selling an awesome fricking book and getting a New York Times bestseller. That’s still breaking rules. We should be looking at that as just as hot, which is why you have to be doing the billboards. Well, I think that by and large women do. If they see that, they do respond to it. But there’s a disconnect sometimes. The simple rule breaking isn’t differentiated from the sophisticated rule breaking. And so you wanna watch that because that can get you in trouble, right? Because you’d be attracted to the rebel, anti-social type because you think he’s a rule breaking hero, but he’s not. He’s broken. Yeah. Yes, that’s exactly right. He isn’t that he’s not a conformist. Yeah. That he couldn’t fit in. Yeah. That’s not the same thing. You want someone who could fit in but breaks the rules. Well, that’s back to Hermione. I mean, that’s her gift, isn’t it? That’s her. And the whole Harry Potter crowd for that matter is they can fit in. In fact, they’re very good at it. They choose when to break the rules. And it works out. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And it’s what makes them attractive characters as well. Yes. Jordan Peterson, this was on my bucket list to have a chat with you. So this has been fricking awesome. This is 12 questions with Jordan Peterson for Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life. I fricking loved our conversation. Thank you so much. My pleasure. And I do think that we did something different from the interviews that I frequently have. So that was very interesting and entertaining.