https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=qmapmvCAagA
Hello, everybody. Today we’ll have another episode of embodying the logos. My guest is Corey and he has a question about systems that he wants to circumambulate. So yeah, Corey, like, what do you think systems are and why do you want to explore those? Well, I’ll give you some background. I quite often encounter people that say the system’s broken, right? Or they say, you know, the, I mean, Mark kind of like I marked it a video on this, too, that I asked at a request for a mark of navigating patterns. And so what do people mean when they say the system? Is it just as is? Because does that even make sense? Is it just a whole series of like smaller interlaced network individual systems? Like you can’t have some can you even have an overarching system that can be broken? So and then and then the more I thought about I saw it, what do they mean when they say the system’s broken? And I thought like, okay, what even is the system, right? So, yeah, so it’s very, the more I thought about it, the more I realized, I don’t really know what people I don’t think people even know what they mean, when they say that. And Mark was saying that that people are just trying to grab trying to get agency and kind of bring some intelligibility to complex phenomena. I mean, that’s not what he said. That’s my take on it. So yeah, like, you can think of a framework, right, which is, it’s like the skeleton of a building that that holds it up, right? So, so, Dan, because because there’s load bearing things, then the the way that you can make the rooms in the building is limited, right? Like there’s, there’s only certain configurations that you can have, right? So, but, but it is also allowing you to build up, right? Like, without the framework, you can’t go up in the sky, because it needs to be whole up, right? So I think, if you have a spiritual thing like that, right, like there’s there’s the set of constraints or the set of rules or, or, or the set of natural laws, right, that that people participate in. And, and they allow people to build, like they allow people to build complexity past the natural. And this complexity past the natural is allowing us a bunch of things, right? Like we’re a system allows you to outsource your cognition, it allows you to outsource your relationship with people, right? Like in some sense, you can just say, oh, I’m handing you this paper, and you know what to do, because we organized our relationship, and I don’t have to know who’s in front of me, I don’t I don’t have to be able to communicate with a person as long as I know this language of the system. I can have a transactional or, or, yeah, or more in an impersonal role, relationship, right? Like I don’t relate to you as a person, I relate to you as as a cog in the machine that that fulfills the sort of function, right? Now that’s, sorry, continue. No, so there, there’s one thing that I got stuck at, you were saying beyond the natural, which I had trouble with. But then you, and I cut you off before you were really getting going. So I apologize for that. Cog in the machine. So put off like, oh, you’re just a cog in the machine, man, you know, or something to that effect, which was kind of like the move that Mark made in The Voice that I didn’t like. But like, it’s interesting, because some people, I like what you said about the rooms, right? And constraints, because some people don’t, they want ultimate freedom, but they don’t realize that they need the walls, and they need the roof, and they need the floors in order to act with agency, right? They think that they can just like, eliminate the the pillars of the the foundation of the system, and be and then they’ll be able to function in a pure utopia or something. Right. And you can live in a hut, right? And you can even live outdoors. But that’s a trade off. Like, so now, you can do certain things, right, you get more freedom in certain ways. But now nature is gonna kick your ass, right? Like, like, you’re not going to be able to flush your toilet. Like, what are you going to do with your trash? You need to dig a hole or whatever, or like, bring it somewhere else. Like, if someone has malintent, right, like, where’s the society that will put the policeman in front of your door, like the people that will stand behind you to cover your ass, right? Like, so there’s different levels. And in Plato’s Republic, he talks about this, right? Like, there’s different levels where you can have the city, right? So you have a city that’s basically living with nature, right? With a little bit of adoption, like homes and agriculture, right? And then you have a complex system, right? Where you have specialization, right? And the specialization allows you to have affluence, right? And then, if you want more luxury, right, like things that you don’t necessarily need, or that aren’t, like, they’re not contributing to living, they’re contributing to the quality of living instead, right? Then you generate things of value, right? And then he says, well, like, people are going to want to steal it from you. So you need an army to protect it, right? And you need to have trade and trade brings in other things, right? So now you have to protect from the other things, like other cultures, right? Because, like, you’re going to have to maintain your culture, else you can’t do the things that you wanted, right? And so there’s these trade-offs. And, yeah, people are not fully recognizing what that means and how to do that. Yeah, that’s really good. I had a thought and I lost my train of thought. I got distracted for a second. Yeah, so in a sense, when people say the system is broken, what they’re really saying is they want to overcome the constraints of the system, but they feel that the system is holding them back somehow. But you know what I mean? Like, you know, they, yeah, and ironically enough, when you have like alternatives to the system, new systems will emerge, right? Yeah. And the other thing I was thinking about is how do networks play into systems, right? Like, you could have different systems network together or is the system a series of networks of, I want to say nodes, but like, I’m trying to like, there’s something that’s in my mind I’m not able to articulate. Yeah, so you could say that the network is a higher level system, right? So you could say a city is a system, right? But you can have a trade network between the cities, right? So now there’s a system that has a production and they can outsource the cutting of the trees and making the wooden shoes happen somewhere else and then selling the wooden shoes happen somewhere else again, right? And so we get these really complex dependencies, right? And economies that are these systems that are interrelated, right? You can say, well, like, a neighborhood is a system, right? Like, the neighborhood is a system that’s not self-sufficient, right? Because it’s dependent upon the city, right? But it is a system, right? Like, there is a self-sufficiency on some level, right? Like, because we identify it as a unit, right? So like, the neighborhood probably has self-determination in some sense, right? Like, we want to have this road be this way or whatever, right? Like, we want to have more police or less police. We want to have these rules, building rules, right? Like, because we want to have this, we want to host this spirit, right? Like, and the spirit needs a container and we’re going to cultivate this container, right? Like, we got to care carefully. And so now, like, if that can happen in, yeah, go ahead. No, I just had a question. Like, okay, I didn’t want you to get too far ahead of me because I have trouble keeping up. So when you, when you mentioned the container, that was really interesting. So what do you mean with the container in relationship to systems? Right. So you have, you see, you have the broken windows theory, right? Which, which effectively says, right, like, if, if you don’t take care of something, then people are not going to feel like they, they need to uphold a certain, certain quality of, of, of existence, right? Like, and more things are allowed, right? So in shaping the environment, you, you have, you send a message, right? Like, so if, if you have this, this Russian concrete buildings, right, like that are all in Eastern Europe, right? Like this, there’s this, this sense of efficiency, right? But also, thatness, right? Like, like, it creates an atmosphere, right? And, and people are going to live out that atmosphere, right? And, and when you, when you have all these post-modern buildings, right, like that, that don’t, they don’t commune, right? Like, there’s no central coherence, right? Like, then there’s, there’s this attention grabbing environment, right? But there’s no, no peace, right? Like, there’s no unity, there’s no, no being, right? And now you have, you have other ways of, of organizing your neighborhoods, right? And all of these things, they, they present you with, like, do I want to build a pub here, right? Like, like, I might not want to build a pub under this concrete flat, right? Because like, that’s, that’s not the neighborhood and, and the people that I want to attract, right? So, so yeah, that’s, that’s what I’m talking about with Cultivating the Spirit, right? Like, are you, are you, are you the place that the person wants to have their business, right? Like, is this a place that people feel attracted to? So, I was thinking of something, I work at a hospital, right? And as I, I was on refuse one day, and I was, you know, picking up all the garbage in the building. So, I got to go get all the garbage, see all the different parts of the building, right? And seeing how like each part, like you have to have more, you have to have a kitchen, you have to have, you know, like all these things, I thought, wow, who designed this? And how do they design it? I thought our systems, we think, I think sometimes when people talk about the system is broken, or they’re against the system, I think they honestly think that there’s one person designing it at all, or, or that, you know, or maybe they think that, that they could collectively design it or something, but, but everyone’s equal and everyone has the same skills, everyone has the same job. But that doesn’t make sense. You need kind of hierarchies and different skills to move. The thing that I’m wondering is, are systems emerging? Like, is a hospital created? Or is it like kind of an almost an emergent phenomenon? That’s almost beyond the architect, right? Because the architect will design the hospital. But in the end, the hospital is going to have to have to be generated. I mean, the workers, like I’ve heard workers say, oh, yeah, you can just design this on paper, but we got to build it. So like, there’s, you know, at each level, there’s going to be corporations, right? Like, yeah, so we were talking about the four causes earlier, and I think this might be a point to bring that in, actually. So yeah, you have the final cause, right? Like the telos, the purpose. And it’s like, okay, what, what do I want to do with a hospital? Well, I want to house a bunch of people. I want to have staff that can reach the people in this amount of time, right? Like, okay, so now you’re getting a bunch of constraints, right, on what you want to design. Because you can’t have all the people that need to facilitate the patients on one side of the building, and have the patients on the other side, right? Because that’s- And then you got to have food for them. You got to have like, scrubs for the nurses that they need, or the doctors. You got to have like food for the doctors to eat. You got to have like, the cleaning staff, you got the cooking staff, you know, to make the meals, you got to have the lab, you know, like, it’s just, it’s amazing how it all fits together, right? And when I thought of it, I thought of it as similar to a ship, right? Like I worked on the ships. And like it too was like a self-contained system. So the hospital many ways is self-contained, but it’s still like intricate and interrelated. But I was like, yeah, so, hmm, going back to the question, yeah, let’s discuss the thing of emergence a little further. Yeah, so, yeah, maybe a ship is easier, right? Because like a ship is more constrained by itself, right? Because it has limited amount of space, right? And there’s also knowing, knowing like, people are only, there’s only inputs and outputs when you’re at port. Other than that, it is completely self-contained. Right. And then first, like there was rowing ships, right? So now you need to facilitate the motor of the ship, which is oars, and like they need to be on the side, right? And then you need people need benches for the oars, right? So then what you can do with the rest of the ship is really limit, right? And then you get sails, right? Like, you know, you can make bigger ships. And so, and now what are you going to do, right? When you make a bigger ship? Are you going to make a room for the captain? Or are you going to make a kitchen? Or are you going to make a shelter for sleep? Like, you got to make a decision, right? Like, I bet all of those decisions were made, right? Like, those actually existed, right? And then there is an evolutionary aspect to do that. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yes, yes, 100%. So, but it’s not 100%, right? So, I watched these Chinese shows lately, and then they have these ships, and they literally have kind of like a house upon the ship, right? And the way that they go about their things is with pushing sticks in the lake, right? Like, there’s a way that whether their motor isn’t in the oars, but there’s in the pushing, right? And so, then everything changes, right? Like, it’s important for them to stand, right? Well, if you’re having oars, right? Like, if you all these robots, like, you know what happens when you stand on those, right? You go like, so, but that’s not a system, right? Like, that’s just bare necessities. So, you can go back to the analogy of the city, right? It’s like, well, now we can make bigger ships, right? So, it’s like, let’s do a steam ship, right? Like, so now we need to have this place where there’s fire, right? Like, we need to put that in relationship to the trust, right? We need to transfer the energy to the, what’s it called? Whatever, like, to the water, right? And then it’s like, well, where do we sleep? And where do we have the kitchen, right? Like, these things, like, what do we do with the heat of the steam? And, right, like, and then you get bigger and bigger ships, right? And you can see the arms race, right? Like, so there’s an arms race and weapons. And then there’s also an arms race in the size of ships. And then you get to the cruise ships, right? Like, the Titanic or whatever, like the Titanic, they made the decisions with these walled areas, right? So, they were privileging, not sinking the whole ship, but just a part of the ship, right? Like, so there’s this trade-off, but now that ship is so big, right? Now they have this ballroom. They have to put the ballroom in relationship to the dinner tables, right? Like, and so now there’s different decisions, right? Like, the decision isn’t about efficiency anymore, right? Like, no, there’s an elegance aspect. Like, there’s a luxury aspect that is privileging how things get organized. And I think we’re living in the age of affluence now, right? So, it’s like, oh, yes, we can do almost everything on the luxury basis, right? Like, that is an option that we have. Like, it’s not efficient, but like, it’s possible. And I think that’s where everybody gets this impression, like, oh, yeah, we can just do that, because like, we’re doing it. Yeah, yeah. Not realizing, you know what I mean? Like, I don’t know. Yeah, it’s interesting, like, when I work on the ships, also, like these, and sorry, similar to a hospital in a sense, right? Like, you have, like, security, you have crew and you have staff, staff work in the gift shop, the casino, the musicians or whatever, and they have certain privileges. Then you have the officers, the officers have certain privileges, and they’re in certain areas, and you have the crew who also live in a different area, like, and then you have all these different components. You have a trash area, you have a kitchen, you have a galley, you have, you know, and then you have the dining room, and you have, in order to have all these things, you’re going to have different people train different ways. So, a system is not only the mechanical aspects of, say, the hospital or a ship, but also the training that goes into all the people that compromise it. And then that elaborates through a network into another system. Where do you get these people? Where do you get the nurse for the ship? Where do you get the casino dealers that’s trained for the ship? Where do you get the musicians from the ship, right? Yeah, you need a schooling system, right? Because, like, people need to have certain basic skills to become cooks or cleaning people or whatever, right? Like, there’s this basis, and now there’s this whole organizational structure, because someone once decided that we should have these types of ships, right, effectively. But not only that, right? Because, like, the schooling system is designed that you can specialize in many different ways. Well, I think, the sign is a big word, but the purpose of it is to afford that specialization. So, now there’s something that comes into play, like, okay, so, like, a lot of people that are, say, they’re against the system, the system is broken, what we need to do is replace a high art field system with a kind of collectively distributed system or sense where everyone’s on the equal playing field. But that kind of eliminates specialization. I don’t think that’ll work, because there’s almost a resentment against people that have certain skills, not realizing that those people too are constrained. The captain is constrained in many ways, and he doesn’t know everything, right? Like, he doesn’t have supreme power over the ship. Like, for instance, I was surprised to know that on a ship, the captain, like, we were going into New Orleans, and when you went into New Orleans, they had to get a pilot to come on, that knew that, that knew the Mississippi well enough to guide the ship into the thing, you know what? So, like, the captain was insufficient in many ways. But then, you know, people could say, oh, we got to overthrow the captain and take the ships before the common man, because you had staff and you had crew, and the crew were less than the staff. The crew were mostly cleaning people, the working class, kind of, these are there from, like, third world countries or whatever was the staff or from first world countries, right? And then you almost sense, and I did, in a sense, feel a sense of injustice in that. I’m kind of going off on a tangent, but, hmm, where is it going with that manual? Draw some… Well, yeah, you’re trying to relate the hierarchy to the system and to the essentiality of the role, right? So, there’s an element where, yes, the captain doesn’t know what the mechanic does, right? Like, there’s too much specialization. In the Roman system, it was pretty cool. At least the idea was that you would go up to the ranks of the army, right? So, you’d serve in every post of the army, and then you’d become a consul, right? So, you’d earn your way up. And we kind of got rid of this, right? Which, in some sense, is good that it allows less of a pathway, right? And, like, becoming a consul, right? Like, a lot of people didn’t make it. Let’s just say that, right? So, there is an element where it’s also, like, yeah, like, it is less easy to go up the hierarchy because it’s not the normal path, right? Like, if you’re scrubbing decks, that doesn’t mean that you can be a mechanic, right? And there’s a reason for that, because you need to study a long time to be a mechanic, right? And then, if you’re a mechanic, that doesn’t mean that you can be a captain, right? Like, a captain requires you to have a different skill set, and, like, not everybody has that skill set. And, yeah, the next question is, well, like, how much does the captain need to know about the mechanics of the job? So, if you’re talking about, like, the people that you hear talking about, like, the system’s broken, we need to fix the system, we need to replace the system. And then, I mean, revolution comes to mind with this, like, communist revolution or anarchist revolutions come to mind. And I’ve been thinking, like, the problems with that, right? They don’t realize how easily, that if the system breaks, the foundation, the pillar of that building or that system, when that falls down, they think they will be freer, but they won’t. You know what I mean? Like, they are temporary, right? Until someone comes knocking at their door. Or, no, someone comes knocking at the door, exactly. Like, when they had, like, defund the police or whatever, right? Yeah. Someone comes knocking at your door with a new system. Like, that will happen, right? And there’s kind of, like, an evolution to systems, right? So, you have mafia type of situations, right? That’s a perfect example. So, there you have, like, some people decide they’re going to break free from the system, so then they go into crime, say, and try to make it for themselves. And then very soon in that world, they realize they need to band together with other people, and then there’s going to have to be some kind of structure. Even in, say, like, something as simple as, like, a drug dealer or whatever, right? There is a system that, a hierarchy, that, that emerged out of that system. You know what I mean? Like, you know, out of a system of, like, or you use the mafia, which was a great example, which would be the evolution of a criminal system, right? Right. Yes, right. So, indeed, you hit the nail on the hat, right? There is a point in which it’s like, we got to give back to the community, right? Because, like, they’re supporting us, like, we need their support, right? Like, there’s a different force, like the police or whatever, that we need to protect ourselves against, right? So, now you got this responsibility, trust and deployment, right? And this is what people don’t realize. Yeah, like, power, great power, goes with great responsibility. And then the question is, like, well, what does that mean, right? Like, as a head of a mafia family, that’s a little bit more straightforward than as a president, right? Because, like, if you’re, if you’re on at the head of America, for example, right, like three million plus people, then what you need to do for that group isn’t obvious, right? Like, it’s not like, like, the direct feedback of life is saying, well, no, you need to react to this, you need to react to this, right? Like, that is happening, right? But going to the moon isn’t a reaction to something on the ground, right? Like, that’s stating, no, like, I want to be like this, I have this ideal, I want to manifest this ideal, and we’re going to unite around this idea. And there’s a problem between this emergent quality and this emanating quality, right? So there’s this emergence, and then something exists, right? Like, there’s a bunch of people, right? Like, he does all the dirty jobs, right? The killing, that guy does the shipping, that guy does the accounting, right? But then it’s like, you grow bigger, right? And there’s a hierarchy in the accounting, and there’s a hierarchy in the shipping, and the killing can be done like this, because there needs to be protection in like 15 different places, right? And you need to do these complex structures, right? Like, you need to, like, how are we getting all these people to do this, right? Like, there needs to be an actual organization. And yeah, like, at that point, you need to start making decisions, right? Like, okay, this is what we’re going to do, this is what we want to achieve, and that’s where the emanation comes in. So I don’t know if I want to touch on this yet, but there’s almost like a theological principle or metaphysical principle too, in the sense, right? Like, so like, it’s funny, too many of the people that say that they don’t want a system are also opposed to, like, they think that religion or ideologies control the system, the wrong religion or the wrong ideology, right? So you mentioned something about ideals, right? So like, does any given system have to be organized around central principle? Like, let’s, you know what I mean? Like, so like, let’s say the mafia, what would the central, I mean, they would have, obviously, the goal of making money, right? But there’s also things like respect and loyalty, or also like, trying to use another example. Well, you can have people organize around a person that is embodying certain principles, right? So that’s really effective, right? But it’s not lasting, right? Like, if that person gets removed, then you have a problem. Yeah, yeah. And so if you point at the principles, as opposed to the person, then you can persist past the removal of this individual. And that’s the project that they did in ancient China, right? Like, they were like, what are the principles that we can follow? And even in the ancient Greece, right? Like, what are the principles that we can follow, so that we can persist and have good society? So which is interesting, because this brings up brings the thing that Peterson, as people touch on, is having it like, okay, like, did you see the video, there’s Peterson was talking about the Queen, right? So, you know, like, you know, and he was talking about, he’s kind of relating, he kind of compared the English system to the American system, right? The American system, you can have a personality like Trump, he’s at the top of the hierarchy, there’s no one to constrain him. In the European, in the in the Commonwealth, constitutional, was it constitutional hierarchy? I should know it’s my country is Canada. But uh, yeah, you have the Queen, the Queen who embodies the God or whatever, like, you know what I mean? Like, so like, you have the person that’s in control of the company, but also they they aren’t the top of the hierarchy, not as if we there’s some kind of, there’s something that Peterson said about that organization, that made me really take heed and go, oh, that’s really interesting, right? And then it related to almost the metaphysical situation, right? Now I know that in the States, they say, you know, they have God as mentioned, or somehow, I don’t know, I’m unable to articulate myself, but maybe you can take me, take a run for it with my stream of consciousness, man, you know. So yeah, like, I think this idea, right, like, Louis XIV, I think, said, let us and I am the state. So there’s, there’s a thing where, if you have a strong personality, and then everything starts revolving around, right? Like, so one of the things that, that in France during that time was really happening was that they set the fashions, right? And not only for France, but for the whole of Europe, right? Like, oh, and there’s, there’s this thing, right? Where there’s this aura that you build up. But what is it, right? Like, this, this king is, in some sense, representing the divine principle, right? And then, at a certain point, the parliaments, right, like the representatives of the people, they started getting more and more voice, right? Like, they started organizing, right? There were some scuffles in England, they even killed the king, right? But then they reinstated the king, because they were like, yeah, we can’t go without the king, right? We still need to unify behind the king. Hashtag, right up there. Yeah, yeah. And so there’s this struggle, right? Like, what is the appropriate place for the king? What’s the appropriate place for? And I think, at a certain point, the king receded in, as a ruler, and was more cast into the representative role, right? Like, in some sense, representative of the people, but more so representative of the nation, right? Like, so if you see what’s happening now, for example, I know the Dutch Royal House, right? Like, they’re traveling, right? They’re going to other countries, they meet with their royal families, right? They’re having negotiations for corporations, right? So they’re increasing the quality of the integration of the nation within the other nations. And I think that is a valid ceremonial role, right? And also within the nation, right? Like, there’s certain national holidays where they’re fulfilling ceremonial functions, right? So there is this, I guess, somewhat representing the divine that the royalty still has in Europe. The royalty still has in Europe. So I remember what I said, you know, I’m talking about Trump, right? Like, Trump doesn’t have anyone that can really call him out on shit, you know, when he was in power, or the president in general. That was the role of the media, but yeah. Oh yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, that’s really, that’s an excellent point. And then I remember them talking about how the queen, God rest her soul, the queen had under so many prime ministers, and she could kind of like, you know, she was in a role where she could tell him. Ironically enough, huh, who was it in the past, the jester? Anyways, who knows what the clown is, but that’s an entirely different brand of thought association. But yeah, so the queen could talk to the prime minister and give him a say. Now, she didn’t weld any actual constitutional power to enact laws or whatever, but yeah, so I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I’m sure someone out there, put it in the comments if you find out where that video is with Peterson talking about that. Yeah, like, I don’t know if they changed it, but the Dutch king actually had to approve every law. Oh, okay. He had to sign every law. In Canada, we have a thing called the governor general, and like a lot of people want to remove the governor general. So we change, make any changes to our constitution, we have to get it rubber stamped by the queen or king of England, or sorry, UK or whatever, of the commonwealth. Yeah, see, so there is something there, right? And it’s like, yeah, like, I think it’s appropriate, right? Because it’s like, you don’t get involved in the nitty gritty affairs, right? But there is certain things that there should be a check and balance upon what this group of representatives do. And changing a constitution is one of these things that is like a monumental thing. If you’re part of something bigger, you should get approval of something bigger for the monumental thing. Now, I was thinking, you said something about ideals too, and I thought like, I really wish I knew what the word was. Well, it sounds like you have a similar political system as I have, where it’s like a democracy, but you also have a constitutional monarchy. Is that the word? Anyways, doesn’t matter. Maybe someone in the comments could put that in. But also the king or queen kind of embodying, representing the nation, but also embodying almost like the higher, the highest hierarchy. I was thinking of the ultimate system that we can’t comprehend would almost adventure on not only philosophical or ideological frame, but on a metaphysical spiritual frame, right? Like God saved the queen, right? Or king. Yeah, right. So there’s a bunch of hierarchies that coexist. Like the political hierarchy always exists, right? Like you always need to organize the polis, the people, right? And then parallel to that, you often have the military hierarchy, right? And you can see the police as an extension of that in some sense, right? Although they want to decouple these. And then there’s in the financial system, right? Like you can have a financial hierarchy, right? If you go to like socialist or communist systems, right? Where the money is being managed in such a way that it constrains the self-expression of people. But you can have capitalism where that constraint isn’t happening through the state, but then it’s effectively happening through emergence, right? Like now there’s someone who has a lot of money and like Elon Musk, and he gets to decide to buy Twitter, right? Yeah, yeah. And so like now there’s a bunch of reorganization happening there. But yeah, like that has to happen, right? Like someone has to make the decisions. Yeah, since we can go back to what do these people want, right? Like people think they know what they want and what they need. Well, the other thing I think is, well, maybe if we go rewind back to where we talked about it, what my question originally was, what is a system? And when people say the system is broken, what do they mean? But also when they talk about a system, many people I don’t think even understand that they’re embedded in a whole series of systems. Their organs are in a system. Their body is a functioning system of smaller components that are interlinked in network together, right? Like, you know, you have the circulatory system, you have the respiratory system, etc., etc., right? Where am I going with that? So I think a lot of times when people are just talking about the system, they’re using an ill, they have this ill-defined thing that frightens them and they’re trying to conjure up some kind of like, egregore that will make sense of the world and then they will be able to feel that they have agency. Now, Mark kind of thought that when people are talking about the system, what they’re really trying to do is find some sense of feeling of control or, yeah, feeling of agency. I don’t, yeah, what do you think of that? Or maybe you care to elaborate on that? Well, yeah, I think a good way to think about it is the hermeneutics of suspicion, right? So when you’re trying to understand something, where are you coming from, right? Like, is the thing that you’re perceiving an evil force because like you’re frustrated in your life and you can’t do what you want? Or is the thing that you’re seeing something that you can participate in? So I’ve been thinking a lot about the word enjoyment, right? So, and is with, right? And joy is is what, oh my, now I’m going deep. Go for it. So joy is, I guess, a sense of participating in glory or something. Like it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s seeing that things are right or something, seeing that things are are bearing fruit and you, and there’s a way that you’re participating in the creation of the fruit. I think that’s what enjoy is, right? So you’re, what is important about that is that you’re doing it with something outside of you, right? You’re in the thing and you’re joining with it. And that has to be bigger than you, right? Like the thing outside of you is necessarily more than you. So it’s bigger than you, right? So that can be scary. Vicki talks about awe and horror, right? Yes, yes. Find something awesome. Oh my God, like I just was part of it. Or it’s like, oh my God, like all of this stuff and like, what is it doing to me? Like, like there’s these two modalities that you can relate to that. And I think people don’t, yeah, they’re projecting their frustration upon the system, right? And instead, they should find a way to find joy in the system, right? Like the system is, well, the system is composed of people, first of all, right? So what the system is doing is dependent on what they’re doing, right? And so if you’re part of the system, you can make it move slightly towards a way of manifesting instead of another way of manifesting. So that’s one thing. And then within your place in the system, you are communing with people, right? So even if the manifestation of the system is bad, your manifestation towards the people around you can be good. And that requires you to have a level of detachment in some sense from the identity of the whole system, right? Like, and we were talking about agency, right? Like it’s also like, joy is maybe identifying with the thing that you did have agency with. So instead of presupposing why you have agency, you’re finding out like, oh no, my agency manifested, right? Like, so instead of having this arrogant position, like, I know what is going to be happening. You’re like, this just happened and I get to be a part of it. So now when we talk about the system, or many people that are against the system, that feel the system is broke, feel that the system is oppressive. Sometimes I think, and then they come up with conspiracy theories. And I came up with the idea that the thing that would absolutely terrify them is for them to accept how emergent all these systems are. Because it’s much, even though they would feel oppressed, they’d much rather feel that they’re oppressed by Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk, than believe that no one’s completely in control. Because that terrifies them, the belief that there is not one central thing in control. And that’s because they don’t have a hierarchy. And they don’t have the hierarchy of a metaphysical notion, right? A metaphysical sense of order, right? Which would relate to almost materialism, and also relate to like certain metaphysical or theological positions of doubt. Yeah. Why do you think they want to have this evil being at the top to be upset about? Because in an ironic sense, it’s almost more relieving that at least someone’s in control. You know what I mean? Because if you can’t have God at the top of the hierarchy, or some organizing principle of the universe, whatever you want to call it, higher power or whatever, if you don’t have anything, then that’s terrifying, because then everything’s meaningless, random and chaotic. Well, yeah, or you have to take responsibility for things around. Yeah, that’s a good point. Excellent point. Right. Because not everything is chaotic, right? I organize my house and it’s children. Do I take sufficient responsibility for organizing my house? Probably not. Right? Should I do that? Well, maybe not. Maybe I get a wife. And she can do that, right? Because she’s probably better at it than I am. Because if I was better, I would have done it. But what did I just say? Well, the way that I express in the world would be better if I was part of this small system. Like the system of participating in a role where you’re not having the same skills, right? You’re not having the same contribution. So you’re not equal. Right? You’re contributing different things, but you’re contributing to the same project. And the project wouldn’t exist without either of them. Right? So you’re both necessary, but not equal. Yeah. I mean, and people come frustrated with systems all the time. I’ve heard a number of times people go, they’re frustrated with like, you know, our democratic or capitalistic systems. And they think, well, you know, maybe it would be good. Maybe if we had a good dictator, it would be all right. You know what I mean? Maybe because then we can at least finally get something done. What’s that? Good dictators are awesome. Like, yes. Yeah. But does that? Yeah. Yeah. Great. No, but like, oh, someone who’s actually knows what to do and has power. Great. Right? Like, that’s amazing. But the problem is, right? Like that. What happens in a generation with the next generation? Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a utopia. It’s a it’s utopia. Right. And for some reason, like, for instance, like we were talking about the French Revolution earlier. Right. And they thought the divine right of who was it was a Robo spare that ended up leading the reign of terror. I mean, he ended up becoming like worse than the king ever was. Right. I mean, millions of people were executed. Right. In the name of liberty and freedom. Yeah. Well, that that happened. Right. Like, if you want to take control, people are not going to move with you. Right. Like, you can see it in yourself. Right. If you want to change something in your life, you’re not going to move with yourself. Like, you need so much prodding and poke. Yeah. Like, it’s really hard to change something that is like people are going to fall off the boat. And in a sense, our culture values so much individual individuality. And I myself prided upon that. And like, you know, I’m an individual. And you see you see it even in cultural things. Ironically, they’re not like I go to punk shows occasionally. And it’s like, look at all these individuals, they’re all wearing jean jackets with patches. And, you know, like, it couldn’t be more of a uniform. Yeah. The uniform of rebellion. Yes. Yeah. And yeah. And this isn’t necessarily related. But like, when you think the system is broken, then you you use the term revolution, in the sense of it being a circle that goes around. The thing is, when people think revolution, they think that it’s going to stop on the utopia. Yeah. Well, yeah, or just their lives, right? Like, I’ll have it good during my life, or I have it good. And then I’ll move to another country, right? Or like, whatever. Yeah. But it’s hard, right? Like, it’s hard to think far into the future. Right? It’s in a sense, what’s happening is really challenging, right? Like, I want this, make this happen. Right? It’s like, yes, you want this. Maybe we can make it happen somewhat. There’s a trade-off. Right? And it’s not only a trade-off between all the buckets that we have right now. Right? It’s a trade-off between all the buckets that we have right now, and all the buckets that we could have. One thing, I’ll jump around a little bit. One thing that’s interesting too, is that the, I don’t know what the word is, the enmity, or just like, thinking that Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos are horrible. But when you think about the intricate systems that they develop, like think about Amazon. Like, if you think about how amazing that system is, and they’re like, oh, well, they should just play their employees more. But that system has enabled a whole, like, they don’t produce anything. They’re just a distribution network that’s allowing millions of people to produce things and sell them online. Right? Like, that’s an amazing, complicated system. Right? Then I think that, oh, well, if these people at the top of these various corporate hierarchies, just like, you know, they want to flatten those hierarchies, but they don’t realize that those hierarchies would not exist if those hierarchies were flattened. Right? Yeah. So I would argue that you want to take a spiritual frame for this. Right? So it’s like, what are they doing? Right? Like, so there’s this one person at the top, right? Which is literally like this king, right? Like, they emerge, right? Like, they’re this shining star that people start following. And so in their wake, right, they drag along people, right? Like, they have a spirit, they manifest the spirit, and they drag along people. And these people, right, like, they don’t start becoming nodes of the heart. Right? And so there’s an emergence within the Amination, right? Where it’s like, okay, we’re, well, we’re building a bunch of ships, right? And then the ship is at sea. And we’re like, well, kind of putting the kitchen, like, on the side of the ship doesn’t work because the fire goes up. Right? Like, so we shouldn’t be doing that. Right? And so then there’s this, these smaller subunits, these containers, right? Like, so it was like a distribution center, for example. Right? Like, I want to manifest this, right? Like, I want to manifest this building. And this building has this certain needs, right? Like, I need these types of people to cooperate with me. Right? So you kind of get like a schema, right? Or whatever. Right? And you have to fit it in the local, right? Like, there’s a place where you can’t build into the ground because there’s only rock, for example. Right? So now you need, you can’t build the same distribution center. Right? So there’s, you need to adjust to the local building requirements, but you still want to fulfill the same function. Right? So there’s, I guess I’m talking about this interaction between the constraints of reality, right? The skills of the people and the idea, right? Like how things should work. Right? And then you get a new instantiation, right? Like you get a new baby version of your formula. Right? And now that baby relates with the world. Right? Now you get lessons that get feedback of the hierarchy. And we can give that information back to all of the nodes in our network. Right? To update. Right? So there’s these data communications at different timescales and in different domains. Right? Because they also have the internet part. Right? And there’s all of this interface that kind of emerges. Right? But at a certain point, someone says things have to emerge in this way, because that’s how we gather information. So I ran into an interesting thing when I say I use and talk about Thomas Edison first. The same thing could have been said of Thomas Edison in his time. This could be said about Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk or Steve Jobs. Right? You know, like, you know, like, so that person ends up making a lot of money out of their profit. But how much wealth do they contribute to society? Like how much enormous wealth has the automobile or the car contributed to millions of people having jobs, making cars, millions of people being able to work at night? You know, like, that can be calculated really. Right? Like, you know, the rising tide raises all ships or something. Is that the same? Yeah. Yeah. But like I said, right, like when you’re doing one thing, you’re not doing another thing. And the other thing, too, when people talk about systems, they’re they’re talking about they’re trying to talk at like such a high frame that it’s like, it doesn’t even make sense anymore. You know what I mean? Like the system is if there’s some overarching system common commonality. I mean, maybe there is. But once you get into that, that’s what they want to make politics. Right. Like that’s like that. Why is everybody so upset about Ukraine? Right. Like there’s wars all over. Right. But this one is special. Right. And the reason that is special is because there’s there’s this thing, right, the system and the system is manifesting in a certain way. And we all think like, oh, yeah, there’s this control. And now it’s frustrated. Like the system is frustrated. Right. It’s like, yeah, Russia isn’t keeping international law. And therefore, we need to invest obscene amounts of money in Ukraine. Right. Like, so there’s this this sense that there’s there’s something that we need to protect. Right. Like, there’s this story that we all believe in. And if Russia proves to the world that the story is just the story, then the story doesn’t work. And. Well, that’s interesting. Yeah. So the entire thing with Russia itself is interesting, too, because, again, so the questions that I’m pondering will table some of this for another talk. But like the relationship of networks to systems, right. So what we’re seeing now is the international system that has been based on globalization starting to change almost a de globalization since COVID happened as a result of numerous interconnect assist. You realize how interconnected all of a sudden we’re like, holy shit, we’re dependent upon these nodes. And if something like COVID or disease happens, all of a sudden these nodes fall apart at key points of infrastructure. And we can no longer build fucking cell phones soon. You know, like now all of a sudden they’re going to all of a sudden the United States is having to restore most of their electronics. Right. Or let’s say China has God forbid if this were to happen, hypothetically, a dictatorial leader took control, you know, and had control of key infrastructure of like the world’s technological, you know, like to produce chips or whatever, what would happen. Right. So you’re having like a series of inter I think the Russian thing, too, like you have this series of interconnected network systems. And then people are trying to understand that. And then it is so complicated. You’re talking about economic systems, you’re talking about political systems, you’re talking about ideological systems. And then you’re talking about the numerous systems that are just people like relating to their own individual lives, their nationalities, their personal religious beliefs, their sense of identity. And all that is just so complicated, just so much easier to believe that somewhere is a dark Sith like shadow like cabal controlling all of it. Mm hmm. And it kind of what you’re talking about, right, like, for example, COVID or or the war, right, like in Ukraine, there was a bunch of people and they thought of themselves a certain way. And then the invasion happened. And then the way that they think about themselves completely changed. Right. COVID happens, right. Like, nations rearticulate what they think is important. Right. Like they there’s there is this latent spirit, right, because not every nation is reacting the same way to COVID. Right. But but they’re manifesting a spirit of the country in in their reaction. Right. But but they’re also identifying against this COVID thing. Right. Like in in in some some ways necessarily. Right. And in other ways, they too much. Right. Like this, there was a there was a sense in which not enough was done. And there was a sense in which too much was done. And and how how do you figure that out in the moment? Well, that’s almost impossible. Like, it’s almost impossible. Right. But but you’re required to right. So like you you you had to go through something like yourself, right, like at a certain point, you had to move. Right. Like, who are you when you move? And then you get this identity clause. And then how do you want to manifest? Who do you want to be? Yeah, I think ultimately, too, like, ironically enough, like, we’re talking about like you and Mark often and others and myself to talk about like political frame, right. And then the philosophical frame. But really, everything’s kind of, you know, it’s like all political and ideological frames could be put under philosophy, really. And even science could be put under philosophy. But then the higher frame is the metaphysical. Right. So in a sense, on a personal level, where do you get your ability to exhibit agency in the world and deal with the meaning crisis that we often talk about, or deal with existential despair or to deal with? I guess, in this situation, we’re more talking about the anxiety, right, the anxiety of being involved in external circumstances that you have no control over. Right. And then so that comes that comes back to like, you know, so are you going to sign agency that just makes you angry to like some shadow like Sith like the ball? Or are you going to affirm the good, as you say, and not act against and, you know, let go like God? Right. Yeah, I think the word that I want to introduce to here is surrender. Right. Like, what are you surrendering to? Are you surrendering to COVID? Is COVID going to determine how you live now? Like, really? Yeah. You said that that strikes something very interesting, Manuel, that you talk about identifying against, ironically, the people that are identifying against mass against, you know, whatever the, you know, the global is trying to put in the evil COVID agenda, right? In a sense, they those forces enacting against they are submitting to those to COVID itself. Like, maybe you could round out what I’m trying to say, to the label articulated. Well, yeah, right. So, see, when when you’re doing something, right, you’re, you’re doing something for a purpose, right? So, are you are you relating to COVID, because it’s an inhibition towards you going to work? Or are you relating to COVID, because you’re afraid of what COVID could do? Right. If if you’re in the second group, that that’s not a good strategy. First of all, you don’t you don’t know what COVID could do. You don’t know how to relate to what COVID could do. There’s a couple things that are, well, common sense wouldn’t be the right word, but they’re obvious, right? Like washing your hands when something happens, right? Where you could have been like, not coughing in someone’s face, right? Like these things are obvious. And then it starts getting more fuzzy and fuzzy after that, right? And I was like, yeah, like, I want to get like half a percent more out of this chance or whatever’s like, yeah, okay, maybe, right? Like, do you know the side of it? Right? Like, and at a certain point, you should, you should not give in to the fear, right? Like, like, even if you can make progress, right, like, even if what you do actually is beneficial, right? Like, it’s, it’s taxing, right? It’s taxing in, in the way that that you’re operating, which is also taxing on your mental. Like, why you can’t walk around worried all the time? Like, then you get stressed and you get different, like, okay, how’s that? Yeah, I was thinking too, like, okay, you talk about these, these people in Portland, like the riots and you talk about like the freedom convoy and stuff. And like, you know, some people getting so, so angry and frustrated, in a sense, they’re resisting something, they’re acting against something, but in a way, they’re submitting to the anger and the fear that that thing is causing. So in a way, they are wanting freedom, but they’re, they’re losing all their agency to these darker emotions. Right. I was listening to a show, a Dutch show earlier, and they were talking about Black Pete and how there was this wave of people actually coming from America, right? Who was, were like, implying that this is racist or that they felt discriminated against through this traditional feast, right? Dutch feast. And there was this whole drama around it, right? And, and actually the Dutch society adapted, right? And there’s, there’s a couple of bucket of people who say like, no, like, I want to have my tradition. I’m like, you don’t have a say in, in how I, I have my tradition. And then what, what do they do? Well, they go there and they go protest. And I’m like, why, why are you going to this town in the middle of whatever bordering these people, right? About your, your ideology. And then these people, right? They’re like, okay, you want to come here and attack us, right? You want to identify against us? Well, we’ll identify against you and we’ll see how it wins, who wins, right? And that, that, that’s the thing that will happen, right? Like if, if you’re going to keep calling me a racist, I’ll be a racist. Like, like if you need me to be, I’ll be like, cause like, yeah, like, I don’t like people who call me a racist all the time. Like, yes. So that reaction is really natural. And it’s really dangerous too. And I found myself, you know, and thank goodness, you know, my life experience has put me in touch with other people, right? Of different nationalities. It’s put me in touch with indigenous people and transgender people and it given me some perspective, but it can be very easy to go into that rabbit hole, you know, when people are identifying against and like, for instance, I have a friend who corrects me on my pronouns all the time. And you know what? It gets pretty annoying after a while. Someone keeps dictating your speech. Eventually you’re going to react against. They’re acting against to the virtue state all then act against. It’s almost like we both enter this relationship such that the emergent qualities manifest that are negative, but I think we’re getting away from. No, no, no, no, but I don’t think we’re getting away from it, right? Cause like what is happening, they’re trying to impose a system. Right? And what is happening? Well, you’re, you’re resisting the system that is imposed upon. Right? Now the question is, are you resisting because you’re a bigot or are you resisting because the system that they’re imposing is not functional? Yeah, exactly. It’s not functional. It’s all luxury, right? It’s all baked air. And, and that’s the ironic thing is these, these people see, I almost fell into it. I apologize. Well, no, the ironic is there are people who are using their cell phones or driving their cars that have all been created by systems that they say are completely, you know, like those systems that, that oppress them. And I’m not going to deny that oppression never happened. I’m not going to deny that the bad things have happened, but, but like those systems enabled them the privilege to be able to criticize the system. So ironically, they are a, they’re a system that’s been created product of the system, even in their acting against and even in the rebellion. Right. Yeah. How, like, are you protesting gravity? Like it’s pretty annoying that I can fly. Like what the heck? Right? Nobody’s doing, well, not nobody, but people ain’t doing that. Right. And so it’s like, what, what, what things are you highlighting and what, what, what gives you the justification to say, well, that this is not hardship. If you highlight something all the time, right. It’s like, I’m depressed. I can’t get better. I’m depressed. I can’t get better. I’m depressed. I can’t get better. Are you going to get better if you, if that’s in your head? No, because like you have a hermeneutics where you’re looking for the thing that won’t make you better. Right. There’s a, and if you’re smart, like someone thinks he’s smart, you can find many, many ways to, to say, well, like I did this and that wasn’t good because I, and you can, you can always find a trick. Like you can always find a reason like, oh, I’m not going to do this because like, whatever. And you can get really fancy with your reasons, but you got to stop, right? Like you either do it or you don’t. And the reason you do it is because you want to. The reason you don’t do it is because you don’t want like, that’s the only valid reason. So if we were to recap, so what is a system? When people say the system, what do they mean? And ultimately, yeah. And what is the individual’s ideal relationship to the systems that impede upon their lives, that impede upon their lives and enable their lives? Yeah. Well, my argument would be you go with it. Right. Like when, when, when you pet a dog, right, you go with the hairs, not against them. You go against the hairs, like the dog will get upset because it’s not nice. Right. So you can go against it or you get a different dog. If that, if it’s such a big deal, but like I’ve been, I’ve been having conversations with people over the years, right? It’s like, if you go to a hospital to get a checkup, right. You submit to the structure of the hospital and they’re going to ask you stupid questions. They’re going to send you everywhere. And it’s like, it’s going to be a hassle. Right. And you can be upset while doing it, or you can just accept that, okay, I decided to do this and this is part of what I decided to do. And I should have known better before I went to do it. So I don’t know if I’m going to have to think about the system thing more. I’d love to, I’d love to like engage with it again. So I think the system is a, is, is both an emergent combination of phenomenon that has evolved over time. And then they’re extremely complex and they’re not, they’re not the product of one man or one group of people. No one has all that power, right? There’s an emergent quality and there’s an emanation quality and the emanation quality. And if you follow that up, trying to track that down and ultimately start at a point that is an ultimate mystery in a sense. But there is a danger in opposing the system in that, you know, like, like, yeah, try to take apart a military helicopter and put it back together when you don’t have the training, right? You know what I mean? And you, yeah. So where am I going with that? So what is the system? Well, don’t, don’t put it back together, change the parts and make it work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was good. So yeah, I still don’t know that I could, if I could succinctly say what a system is, but I can say what a system is not. And then when people say the system, I think that they’re oftenly using that term in a reductionistic fashion such that they don’t understand that they’re, what they’re dealing with is not one system. What they’re dealing with is a network of multiple systems that are interrelated in such a level of concepts. And the thing is, when you start pulling strings out of different nodes, you don’t know which node is going to break your connection to other systems. Right. And you, you could take like a somewhat radical step and say, well, a system is, is, is a way of intelligibility that I impose upon the world. Right. So you could, you could say, right, like there’s the system of oil distribution, right? It’s like, well, in, in order to understand certain things about the world, I can look at the, at the way that oil flows across the world. And now I can, I can relate to that. Right. Like if I’m an oil company, I can say, well, maybe I should send more oil to this place because it sounds like there’s a lack of oil there. Right. And I could probably sell it. Right. So now, right, now that system is going to feed back into itself. Right. But, but, but it’s, it’s an intelligibility. And then the question is, well, should I, should, should I do that? Right. Like, is, is that a good decision to base my decision upon the flow of oil? Like maybe I should talk to people and let them tell me whether they want to buy oil, but maybe they don’t want, know that they want to buy oil. And if I go there and I, I show them what oil can do, then they’re like, holy shit. Like I want some of that stuff. Right. So, so it’s not obvious, right. But what is obvious in relating to systems is they’re a tool. Right. So, so you could say like they’re spiritual things. So they’re not actual things. Right. Like they’re a consequence of our belief and adherence to that belief. And so if, if I, if, if I start treating the world as if there’s this power narrative or this racism narrative, right, I’m going to manifest the world in a specific way. Right. Like I’m, I’m going to establish certain relationships between people and that’s going to have an effect upon the world. So I would say that use the systems to understanding of systems that are going to manifest the world around you that, that contribute to the group. Like, so know, know why you choose to look at a system and what, what your agency is in relation to that system. And when, and when you act against the system, like I think of a system, systems are complex, they’re interrelated and no system is not connected to another system. So when you start saying that, oh, I’m going to overthrow the system, I’m going to change the system, you may be, yeah, you, you may, yeah, at a certain point, the system can crash, right. And then, and then, and then you think that you’re, you’re trying to assert your freedom, but there are people that are going to oppose you that are going to say, this system must be maintained, not just for me, but for you. Yeah. If, if you, if you are against the system so much compete with it, create a better one. Like why, why are you trying to overthrow it? Like just competition is better than like, you want to wage war instead of just show that you’re better. Because, because I know why you’re not showing that you’re better because you’re not like, that’s as simple as it is. And if you are like, that’s great. That’s a great way to wrap it up. That was, that was a mic drop right there, Manuel. Well, thanks everybody for watching this impromptu dialogos with Corey. I hope to see you in the next episode.